Humans have done experiments on animals for thousands of years — but animal testing has always been controversial because of the concerns for animal welfare. Recently, there have been more and more efforts to find alternatives to lab animals. So how is this quest going? What's on the horizon – and will we ever get rid of lab animals completely?  You can binge more episodes of the Lab Notes podcast with science editor and presenter Jonathan Webb on the ABC Listen app (Australia). You'll find episodes on animal behaviour, human health, space exploration and so much more. Get in touch with us: labnotes@abc.net.au Featuring: Darren Saunders, New South Wales deputy chief scientist and engineer This episode of Lab Notes was produced on the lands of the Gadigal and Menang Noongar people.