Fidelio (with Mike Schur and Sandra Bernhard)

Summary

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
Episode: Fidelio (with Mike Schur and Sandra Bernhard)
Release Date: July 10, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Overview

In this episode of The Severance Podcast, hosts Ben Stiller and Adam Scott delve deep into the creative forces behind the acclaimed workplace thriller, Severance. The episode features two distinguished guests: Mike Schur, renowned for his pivotal roles in creating hit shows like Parks and Recreation and The Good Place, and Sandra Bernhard, the fearless performer portraying Cecily on Severance.

Conversation with Mike Schur: Crafting Modern Workplace Comedies

Ben and Adam kick off the discussion by celebrating Mike Schur's illustrious career. Adam highlights Mike's contributions to defining the modern workplace comedy genre, mentioning his work on The Office, Parks and Recreation, and more recently, A Man on the Inside.

Notable Quote:

• Ben Stiller [00:47]: "He's basically one of the people, I think, that's created this genre of the office workplace comedy, the modern version of that."

Mike reminisces about his early days working with Greg Daniels on The Office, emphasizing the strict adherence to the mockumentary format that made the show feel authentic.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Schur [13:52]: "Greg was just like, no, the reality of the show will matter. People will care about it, and it will mean something if they feel like this is real."

Philosophical Themes in Severance

The conversation shifts to the philosophical underpinnings of Severance. Mike shares insights into how philosophical questions about identity and morality are intricately woven into the show's fabric. He relates his personal journey into moral philosophy, sparked by a minor car accident incident that led him to question ethical decision-making.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Schur [27:22]: "That's what Severance is asking: what is the self? Who are you?"

Ben and Adam explore how Severance challenges traditional notions of self by severing employees from their personal lives, creating a dual identity that raises profound ethical and existential questions.

Impact and Tone of Severance

Mike elaborates on the unique tone of Severance, comparing it to his experiences on The Office and Parks and Recreation. He praises the show's ability to balance intense philosophical themes with relatable workplace dynamics.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Schur [20:34]: "I don't know that I could describe the tone of Severance, but I know it when I see it."

Adam echoes this sentiment, appreciating how the show's weekly release fosters global conversations and allows its complex narrative to unfold organically.

Listener Questions and Interactive Segment

The podcast transitions into a listener Q&A, where callers share their reflections on Severance. One caller, Chuck, draws parallels between Irving's journey in the show and his own experience of deconstructing deeply held beliefs from his upbringing in a fundamentalist church. The hosts and Mike delve into how Severance mirrors real-life processes of questioning and redefining one's identity.

Notable Quote:

• Chuck [41:50]: "When Irving gets to the point where he's like, let's burn this place to the ground, that was such a cathartic line, just coming from my own experience."

Exploring Crossovers and Shared Universes

Another intriguing listener question from Ben Capreiro sparks a discussion about potential crossover episodes between Severance and Parks and Recreation. Mike reflects on the complexities and creative considerations involved in merging distinct show universes, ultimately suggesting that severed versions of characters would fundamentally differ from their original personas.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Schur [46:38]: "The temptation would be to say, like, Ron Swanson will still be Ron Swanson. But the truth is, I don't think that's true."

Interview with Sandra Bernhard: Bringing Cecily to Life

The second half of the episode features an engaging interview with Sandra Bernhard. She shares her journey to Severance, recounting her early interactions with Ben Stiller and her experiences performing in high-stakes environments like the Improv and King of Comedy.

Sandra discusses her approach to embodying Cecily, emphasizing the importance of immersing herself in the character and respecting the show's meticulously crafted environment.

Notable Quote:

• Sandra Bernhard [56:30]: "I've learned to just be in the moment and also respect the space that has been created by all the other, you know, elements."

Ben and Adam commend Sandra for her fearless performance and her ability to blend humor with intense emotional depth, enhancing the show's overall impact.

Notable Quote:

• Ben Stiller [57:37]: "I always feel like it's so much fun when someone who's known comedically, primarily does something that is not comedic. It’s almost more interesting."

Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks to both guests. Ben and Adam express their admiration for Mike's contributions to television and Sandra's standout performance in Severance. They encourage listeners to continue engaging with the show and explore the deeper themes it presents.

Notable Quote:

• Sandra Bernhard [66:02]: "They were totally blown away. I knew the show had great impact, but the combination of people kind of, you know, some people really knowing me came together in such a beautiful way."

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This episode of The Severance Podcast offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of the creative and philosophical dimensions of Severance, enriched by the insights of industry veterans Mike Schur and Sandra Bernhard. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the show, this discussion provides valuable perspectives on the intricate storytelling and character development that make Severance a standout series.

Transcript

[Adam Scott]

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by the Farmer's Dog Try Fresh healthy [e-mail] severance.

[Ben Stiller]

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

[Adam Scott]

I'm Adam Scott, and this is the.

[Ben Stiller]

Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we are talking all about severance and the movies and TV shows and influences and people that have been a part of making the show. And I'm excited for this week.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, Mike Scher is gonna be on the show. Mike is a friend of mine. He's a brilliant writer. He's created, co created, written, or produced, chances are, all your favorite shows. Parks and Rec, the Office, the Good Place, Brooklyn, Nine Nine Hacks, Master of None, and most recently, A Man on the Inside, which is just excellent. Starring Ted Danson on Netflix.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And he's basically one of the people, I think, that's created this genre of the office workplace comedy, the modern version of that. And he's just so smart. And also he's very interested in moral and philosophical questions. He's written about them, and I think it's a real theme in his work. And I think we're gonna get into a little bit of that with him also.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, Mike even wrote a book about it called how to Be the Correct Answer to Every Moral Question.

[Ben Stiller]

And then we're gonna have Sandra Bernhardt play Cecily on the show, the amazing, unique, fearless performer that, for me, I've known for a very long time. And I was so happy that she was on the show. And it's gonna be so gonna be fun to talk to her.

[Adam Scott]

Me too. I mean, one of the great performers and just turns in such a great performance on the show.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

So let's get into the episode. Ben, how have you been?

[Ben Stiller]

I've been good. I mean, you know, it's summer New.

[Adam Scott]

York as far as summer movies go. How's it going this summer for you?

[Ben Stiller]

Let's see. I saw Mission Impossible.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Tramiel.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, that was thrilling. And it was so exciting to see Trammel. I went to see it. I went to see it with my son in White Plains, New York, at an im. And when Tramiel came on the screen, there was an audible gasp.

[Adam Scott]

Same.

[Ben Stiller]

Really?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. We saw My Daughter and I saw it in, like, lower Manhattan, and it was a smaller theater, but the whole place, like, lit up when Tramiel appeared on screen.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it was really cool. And I feel like Trammel. I remember when he went off to do it and he said, like, I'm going to do it for, like, a week or something. And I feel like he underplayed it because it was, like, a much more important role than I thought.

[Adam Scott]

I know.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And he was, like, commanding a submarine and saving Ethan Hunt.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And getting laughs and everything.

[Mike Schur]

He was great.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Super cool. It was so much fun. But I have to say, my favorite summer movie was the rewatch I did two nights ago with my son and wife of Jaws.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, great. For the 50th anniversary. Like a little nod.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. It's always been in my, like, top five favorite movies. Maybe top three favorite movies. Maybe top two favorite movies. I just love it so much. But watching it again after not having watched it for about maybe a year.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

I just was like. I loved it even more, and I just feel it's one of the best movies ever made. And I had a thought about it. Tell me what you think. But there's not really a dud scene in that movie. There's not one scene where you go, I have to get through this scene.

[Adam Scott]

I completely agree. Even the little scenes, like the scene with his son, it's like the main story beats are all done, and they just stay with Roy Scheider and his son at the dinner table and just. We could just get to watch their behavior.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And it just deepens everything in the movie. And it's so good.

[Mike Schur]

It's so good.

[Ben Stiller]

It's so good. And the mom, Lorraine, Gary, with the. You know, with the son, after he's freaked out by the. You know, when he's in shock and talking about getting him ice cream. These things are like. There's so many little nuances that obviously Spielberg was famous for, but at that point, which is, like, such an early stage in his career to, like, in the blocking and the. Obviously the scene on the ferry when they're going across with Mar and the.

[Adam Scott]

Hidden One are there.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. And yeah. Where the background is changing because the boat is changing the background. And they just take, like, one step up into camera at the end of it, and it's just so perfect. And Murray Hamilton as the mayor. Oh, my God, he was so good in that movie.

[Adam Scott]

So good. But then after the attack, and you see Murray Hamilton and how just tortured he is, you know, that guy's life will never be the same.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, he's the mayor of Shark City.

[Adam Scott]

He sure is.

[Ben Stiller]

So good. Well, we have. We have a really cool guest on the podcast today.

[Adam Scott]

Yes, we do. Mike Schur is here, and we are so lucky to have him. We should let him in.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, let's talk to Mike we should.

[Adam Scott]

See if Mike knows the secret password, and then we'll let him in.

[Mike Schur]

Too late. Too late. I'm already here.

[Adam Scott]

God damn it. Hey, Mike. Hey, man.

[Mike Schur]

Hello, gentlemen.

[Ben Stiller]

What would the secret password be for our podcast?

[Mike Schur]

It's Fidelio. It's the same one as Eyes Wide Shut. You're right.

[Adam Scott]

You're exactly right. That's what it was.

[Ben Stiller]

Fidelio. That's right.

[Adam Scott]

Mike, thank you so much.

[Mike Schur]

It is my absolute pleasure.

[Adam Scott]

Mike and Ben, you guys have met a couple times over the years.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like we've run into each other a couple of times, but we've never really spent any time together.

[Mike Schur]

You probably don't remember this, but I met you in, like, 1998 in New York. I was at SNL and you were doing some late night bit, and you asked Adam McKay to help you brainstorm, and McKay brought, like, me and Rob Carlock and Dennis McNicholas to some bar, and we, like, pitched you ideas for what to do on a late night bid.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, my God. What a dream team of writers.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[Ben Stiller]

On my late night bid, I don't.

[Mike Schur]

Think I contributed anything worthwhile. I had been working there for, like, one week, and. And I was terrified of the job. And then suddenly I was pitching jokes to you and was like, this is bad. I'm out of my depth here. And then I was there when you host. You hosted, like, maybe three years later or something.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Schur]

And you did that. You did the monologue where you were on the roof of 30 Rock, like, looking out over New York and being like, I'm gonna own this town someday.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And there was, like, a battle with Lorne. Cause I like the show. And so it was. Lorne and I were, like, mortal enemies, and we had this sort of, like, superhero battle. I was ridiculous.

[Mike Schur]

It was insane. But it was very fun. Yeah. But we've properly hung out.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, I'm.

[Mike Schur]

This is our chance.

[Ben Stiller]

I'm a fan.

[Mike Schur]

Thank you, buddy.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I've heard that Zoom now qualifies as a proper hangout. So. Yeah, we're in luck.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah. Legally, after this, we will have hung out. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

This is a legally binding, proper hangout. Well, Mike and I have known each other a long time. He's a good friend of mine. We've worked together a lot. And I really do owe Mike so much because he handed Ben Wyatt over to me 15 years ago. Isn't that crazy?

[Ben Stiller]

That's incredible.

[Mike Schur]

That's terrible.

[Adam Scott]

It was in the spring of 2010 when you hired me.

[Ben Stiller]

Can I Ask Mike what was the hiring process to get Adam on your show.

[Mike Schur]

So Adam had auditioned for the show when we were making the pilot. And he will say, I'm sure again, right now, that he did a bad job at his audition. He did not do a bad job at his audition. He did an excellent job. We didn't hire him at the time to play the role that eventually went to Paul Schneider. But then after a season plus of the show, we needed to. And we needed a different love interest for Leslie Knope for Amy's character. And I was like, that guy's great. And I was a huge Party down fan. And I poked around and heard that Party down might not be coming back. So we had had this idea for Amy's character that we didn't go with for the show where the backstory was that she had been one of those people who was elected mayor of her town at 18, like in high school, and then had done a terrible job. Cause I'm obsessed with those stories. Cause you read about, like, an 18 year old is the mayor, know, New New Bedford, New Hampshire, or whatever, and that's the last you ever hear of those stories. And I always imagine that it just doesn't go great when the 18 year old's in charge. So my backstory for Leslie Knope was originally that she had been the mayor at 18 and had just bankrupted the town. And I always thought that was like, a fun story for someone. So when we thought about bringing Adam in, I was like, oh, we could just transfer that backstory to him. So we met in my office and I basically said, like, this is your job, if you want it. Like, this is the character. This is. This would be the situation. You had this terrible thing happen to you, and you've spent the rest of your life trying to basically prove that you're not a screw up. And it was sort of based on the book the Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy, which I was also obsessed with, which is a story of a guy who makes one terrible, awful mistake when he's really young. He's a drunk idiot, and he gets into a poker game and he bets his wife and loses her. And his. And when he bets his wife, his wife says like, hey, if you. And he has, like a baby too. And the wife is like, if you lose, I'm. I'm going with this guy. I'm like, I'm leaving you. And he's like, duh. And then he loses, and she's like, goodbye. And she leaves. And so that it jumps ahead 25 years. He's now the mayor of the town, because that was his low point. And he was like, I have to become a better person. So he's, like, sober, and he's worked really hard to get where he is, and he's now the mayor, and everybody respects him. And then the story of the book is that one day that woman comes back into town, and he's like, this is my chance to make amends. And so I just loved that book. And I put the whole thing into one character and then gave it to Adam.

[Adam Scott]

And on my first day of work, you gave me a beautiful copy of that book that I still have and still have not read.

[Mike Schur]

Well, you know, you lived it, but.

[Adam Scott]

It is a prized possession.

[Ben Stiller]

It sounds a little like. A little like Les Mis, a little like Valjean steals a loaf of bread, then he. Right. Becomes the mayor.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And it's the juiciest backstory. It was so exciting.

[Mike Schur]

I think there's a lot of, like, 19th century stories that are about, like, a person making a terrible mistake and then trying to make amends, you know?

[Ben Stiller]

Right. One of the reasons I was excited that we were gonna talk to you is just because obviously you were on the Office. Can you tell me exactly how you started working on that show and how that developed for you?

[Mike Schur]

So Greg adapted it from Ricky and Steven's British version and made the pilot, and he was sort of the only driving force behind the pilot. And then I joined the writing staff in that first season. So that first season, which was only six episodes, it was a very small writing staff. It was just me, Mindy Kaling, BJ Novak. Mindy and BJ and I were the only full time writers, so we were there for those first five episodes. And then I stayed there through season four into five, and then Greg and I did Parks and Rec together while he was still doing that show.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And it's obviously, it's an incredible show. And what, you know, what you do as a showrunner creator, and the shows you've gone on to create afterwards is such a unique talent. And just to say that because, you know, there are very few people who can write and create and run a show and make it good and keep it going, and you've done that. So I just want to say that's, like a very special thing I think, that you do.

[Mike Schur]

Thank you. It's the best job in the world. Like, it's. When it works, there's nothing like it. I mean, you must have this feeling now. You and Dan must have this feeling of, like, oh, my God, we're making something people care about.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, the exciting thing is that people are watching it and are responding to it. And, you know, how many things we make that nobody ever really sees or they're out there. Right. They're out there in the ether, and they're available, but they're just not people going, yeah.

[Mike Schur]

I mean, the magic of TV to me has always been that, like, if it works, it works in a lasting way where, like, you know, people still go back and watch old movies, obviously, but TV shows slowly unfold over years and years and years. And when a new season is coming up, people get excited and they start talking about it months before it airs, and then they keep talking about it months after it ends. And that's a. You know, that's unique to the art form. There's no other art form that does that. I think in the same way, especially when the episodes are dropping once a week, which is so much better than the binge model, in my opinion, because it's like you create a conversation that happens all over the world weeks and weeks and weeks at a time. Like, it's just a. There's nothing like it. And I feel like you have to cherish and treasure those moments when you're involved with something like that, because they're just very rare.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I'm so grateful that that's how Apple puts the show out, is on a weekly basis rather than a binge model. It would have just completely changed how the show sort of absorbed itself into culture over time.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Mike Schur]

Well, also, with your show specifically, there's a lot to discuss. You know, it's not like it's not Friends, which. Not to say anything bad about Friends, but, like, the episodes are meditations, and you just. You can't meditate six hours in one night. You got to meditate for an hour and then come down from the. From the experience and chew on and wrestle with it and understand what it means and where it's going. And, yeah, it would be. If you could watch all of Severance on one plane ride from LA to New York, I don't think it would have the same impact that it does.

[Adam Scott]

No. And that would be a really long and really arduous plane ride to absorb all of that information in one sitting.

[Ben Stiller]

But what I loved about the script that Dan wrote when I first read it was that it reminded me of shows like the Office and of Parks and Rec. And I realized he was picking up on this, which I'm sure you're Aware of, because you are one of the people who created this genre, the modern workplace comedy. I guess it goes back in television. But did you feel that when you were working on the Office and then going into Parks and Rec, where you were doing the same format, which was sort of the pseudo documentary? Right. But this genre, even though ours obviously wasn't a documentary, severance isn't. But there's a certain interplay of the characters that I think is very unique to the shows that you have created. Those shows in particular, do you feel like that's something that didn't exist before and that kind of has changed television or comedy? Because I feel like it did.

[Mike Schur]

That's the genius of Ricky and Steven's original idea to me, is it's just called the Office, which makes it the most widely accessible concept. Right. It's a little bit like Friends. It's like, this is. You don't have to. There's no barrier of entry at all. Everyone in the world has worked in an Office at some point. But the second thing is the mockumentary aspect, which at the time was novel, it now is obviously not. Gets you this second layer of storytelling, which is people will act differently when they know the cameras are on them and when they don't know the cameras are on them. So the Office, when Greg adapted the Office, he had a million rules, and the rules were hard and fast. You could not break them. When we would set up shots at the Office, Randall Einhorn, who is the dp, a director, would say, okay, they're going to be talking here at the desk, and then we're going to jump over there, and we're going to see this guy walk in from the break room or whatever. And Randall Einhorn would go, all right, well, give me a second. Let me. Let me run it. And he would put a camera on his shoulder. He would set up where he needed to set up for the first thing, and then he would literally run. They would rehearse the scene. He would run to the other position that he had to get into in order to get the shot that they wanted. And if he couldn't get there in time, they wouldn't do it. Cause it would be like, look, we're saying this is a documentary, and there's only two camera operators in this documentary. And if we can't actually physically get to the point where that shot would have come from, we can't do the shot. And at one point, we were in a real office building, and at one point, the only way to get where he Needed to get was to run out of the set, down the stairs, out into the parking lot, go across the parking lot and run up another flight of stairs and get into another position. And so he did it. He was like, all right, let's try it. And he ran down with a, you know, giant camera on his shoulder, ran to the other position and then got up. And he was like, yeah, okay, we can do this. So it seemed at the time like overkill, frankly. It seemed like, come on. Like, this is tv. We can. We. There's a little leeway here or whatever. But Greg was just like, no, the reality of the show will matter. People will care about it, and it will mean something if they feel like this is real. And he just didn't want there to ever be anything that felt fake or tvish. So that dedication to those rules, which, for us put a burden on the production and felt like sometimes in the writers room, we'd be like, really? Like, it'll be funny. Can't we just. Can't we just get that shot that. I think his dedication to those rules, his almost monk like, dedication to that theory, is what I think really made that show special. When we went to Parks and Rec, we were like, this is gonna be a little looser. We're not gonna stick to that. We're gonna loosen up the reins a little bit and allow ourselves the chance to do sort of more, you know, filmic things. But those rules were in my head, and there were times where we would pitch certain shots and I would just be like, that's ridiculous. Like, come on, we gotta. We gotta have some rules here.

[Adam Scott]

But also, Parks was a different tone as well.

[Mike Schur]

It was a different tone. That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

But that's such a great example of something. I never even thought of watching that show, that he would be thinking that way. But it lends. It makes you feel like that it's a real thing and you're not thinking. It's subconscious and yet. And allows for the humor. It hits more because it feels more real and it's more identifiable. And I think you do have to make rules like that on anything that you're making. You know, where you have to say, this is for our reality, this is what we're going to do. If you want it to be heightened, you want it to be real, whatever it is. But that's such a subtle thing that I would never have thought of, you know?

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

By the way, I just have to say, the original Office, the British Office, is so, so good at the time. They Were talking about doing an American office. People were approached, and I did have a meeting with them about producing the American.

[Mike Schur]

Did you?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, with Ben Silverman. And I said, you know what? There's really. There's no way you can do this show, because the British show is just so good, and anything you do would just be sort of like a pale imitation.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

So wrong. I was so wrong.

[Mike Schur]

Well, you were also, though you were in the majority opinion. I mean, almost everyone. I. I left snl. I'd been in SNL for six and a half years, and I left to take that job and all my friends at the time, and they bring this up. They bring this up constantly. It's like, when you left, we were like, you moron. Like, what are you doing? Like, it was a. It was absolutely posed to be a disaster because it's such a pure piece of art, that British show. It's so highly concentrated. It's such a character study. And it's also so dour in a way, that British humor is often dour. And I think everyone thought it was a bad idea, except, thankfully, for Greg Daniels, who understood it at its molecular level.

[Adam Scott]

So coming from Sketch, coming directly from snl, this must have been a complete left turn for you. And so do you feel like, as far as taking that turn, you. Greg was really the person who, you know, kind of taught you how to attack this particular format?

[Mike Schur]

Oh, completely and totally. I mean, it's not an exaggeration to say that he taught me how to write, Taught everything I know I learned from him from that show. And that, you know, that goes for character relationships, for story breaking, for, you know, tone, which is the hardest thing to capture, which is a thing, I think. I think of all of the things I love about severance, I think you have essentially invented a new tone. Like, I don't know that I've ever. Tone is impossible to describe. It's impossible to relate. Like, when you meet with writers at the beginning of a show, it's really hard. I mean, look, if the tone is like Naked Gun, you can describe what that is. Right. But if the tone is specific to whatever project you're working on, it's really hard to communicate to executives or to writers or to actors what a tone is. And it's like. It is very much like that thing of Michelangelo carving the David. And someone asked him how we carved the David, and he said, it was easy. I just cut away everything that wasn't the David.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Mike Schur]

And I think about that all the time with tone, because it's like, you just, to me, you. You find your tone by removing things or eliminating things that are not the tone you want until you have the tone you want. And I. I think those lessons of creation, TV creation, all came from Greg, but they make me also appreciate it when someone else comes up with something and when you see someone who's so in control of what they're doing that they. I don't know that I could describe the tone of severance, but I know it when I see it. And it's the same thing with any show that's truly special, like, has its own unique sort of fingerprint.

[Ben Stiller]

That's what I love about it. I totally agree that it's like, you know it when it isn't it, you know?

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Even now, like, the tone of severance is really something Ben spearheaded when we started shooting the show. And, you know, it was never really, like, articulating what it is. It was just us all finding it and Ben kind of shepherding us along until we found it. And even now, talking about future episodes or future ideas, it's still not something any of us really articulate. I don't know if you can articulate any tone, but like you said, Ben, it's a sort of. Like, you don't know exactly how to describe the tone, but all you know is when it's there and when it's not. And you'll know it when you see it or you'll know it when you hear it. It's just this sort of indescribable, slippery thing.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's also, I think, like, this amalgam, you know, of the writing and the style, like, you're talking about with what Greg did and the actors, you know, if you've cast it in the way that you want. I always felt like the tone wasn't ever gonna be really defined until we started actually shooting scenes. And I always go back to that one scene, Adam, of you and John in, I think it's episode three of the first season, where, you know, he talks about you going to the perpetuity wing. And Jon, as Irving is so adamant and so incredibly committed to his religion. Really, that to me was like, oh, wow, this is the tone of the show. It's, like, super serious, but it's also really ridiculous.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. But he also helped me def my character because I needed to be a company man to a certain degree. But then it was like, oh, right. But I'm not at Irving levels.

[Mike Schur]

You're not at his level.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was really informative on, like, several different levels.

[Mike Schur]

I think to me, as a viewer, it was the moment that Tramiel came on screen for the first time. There is something about the tone of his voice and his mustache and just everything he says is so sinister but also gentle. And I don't know why, but for me, like, every time Tramiel shows up, I get like a goosebumpy feeling on my arms and I feel like, yes, this is the exact center of the tone of the show.

[Adam Scott]

It's so true. Every time I shoot a scene with Tramiel after cut, it's just like, Jesus Christ, man. Holy shit.

[Mike Schur]

That's the fun of it, right? Is like once you, even if you can't describe it even to yourself, you find an actor, you write a line, you set up a certain shot, and you're just like, yes, yeah, yes, this is what it is. And I don't know what it is, but I know that this is what it is.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, it's time for us to take a break. We'll be right back after this with more from Mike Scherman. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. So employees on the separate floor of Lumen Industry know their work is mysterious and important. The farmer's dog, on the other hand, isn't mysterious at all. Which is good, because what you feed your dog shouldn't be a mystery. The Farmer's dog makes 100% mysterious free fresh food for dogs. And they always use real meat, real vegetables, which are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and avoid the risks that come from ultra processing. Their recipes are developed by their team of board certified vet nutritionists so they can ensure that your dog's food is always complete and balanced. The Farmer's dog food is made to human grade safety standards, which are the same safety standards as the food that you and I eat. Because as far as I know, as if you're listening and understanding this podcast, chances are you're a human being. The farmer's dog also portions the food to your dog's unique needs, making it easy to keep them at a healthy weight. So go try the Farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food@the farmersdog.com severance. Plus you get free shipping right to your door. Remember, you can't get it at stores, you can't get it at Lumen. You can only get it@the farmersdog.com severance. This offer is for new customers only. Hey, what's up, flies?

[Mike Schur]

This is David Spade.

[Adam Scott]

Dana Carvey look at I know we never actually left, but I'll just say it.

[Mike Schur]

We are back with another season of Fly on the Wall.

[Adam Scott]

Every episode, including ones with guests, will now be on video.

[Mike Schur]

Every Thursday you'll hear it and see.

[Adam Scott]

Us chatting with big name celebrities.

[Mike Schur]

And every Monday you're stuck with just me and Dana. We react to news, what's trending, viral.

[Adam Scott]

Clips follow and listen to Fly on the Wall everywhere you get your podcasts.

[Ben Stiller]

At Lumen Industries, collaboration is limited, information is siloed, workflows are mysterious, and departments rarely interact. The Macrodata refinement team, like many others, operates in isolation, tracking cryptic information without clear context. Now imagine what would happen if they introduced a new tool like Notion. Notion brings structure to the chaos without the need for white walls that go on forever or severed minds. With shared workspaces, customizable databases, and AI assisted search teams like Marks could track their quota progress, manage project documentation, and even gain insight into the elusive work of other departments. Departments all in one organized platform need to organize data into tables, boards, or timelines. Easy coordinate across departments without unauthorized hallway wandering. Completely possible in a world where memory ends at the elevator. Notion helps keep everything connected, connecting what's been severed. Explore [e-mail] severance so you're like obviously very interested in these sort of philosophical questions about life and morality and in your shows that you've been working on lately. I feel like that's an area you've gone to. You wrote a book about it, did you? Went to Harvard. I wonder what that was like for somebody who really basically had like an 1100 SAT score. But anyway, that's a separate question.

[Adam Scott]

I didn't even have an SAT score.

[Ben Stiller]

But like, like the Good Place asks questions about what it means to be a good person. Severance is sort of the first line is who are you? There's questions that you're drawn to as you go through life. Have you always been interested in that and how does that work into what you're doing creatively?

[Mike Schur]

It's honestly a sort of second half of my life thing. I was not super interested in philosophy when I was in college. I took two philosophy classes and thought they were fun. But it really is something that started around the time I got married and had kids. And I now think about almost nothing else. Like it's a pretty constant drumbeat for me and certainly creatively it's always on my in my mind now. But it was not a I've been interested in this from day one thing. It's really, like, as an adult. And it happened. My wife was in this very minor car accident, Trapped, like, fender bender. And the guy that she bumped into, they got out and looked at the bumpers, and there was no damage. And they exchanged information. And then he sent us a bill for, like, 850 bucks. I was like, I gotta replace the whole fender. And I got really upset. I was just like, this is why, like, car insurance rates are so high. And, like. And even a cop had looked it over. A cop was nearby accidentally and looked it over. Like, I don't see anything here. And so I went and, like, I, like, looked at the bumper, and there was, like, a really tiny crease in the bumper.

[Ben Stiller]

And.

[Mike Schur]

And I was like, I think this is ridiculous. And I'll tell you what, Hurricane Katrina had just happened. And I was like, I'll donate 850 bucks to the Red Cross if you just forget about this. And the guy was like, I'll think it over. And I was so convinced that I was right, that I was like. I started railing about. I was at the office at the time, I told the story. And then other people were like, I'll chip in 100 bucks. I'll chip in 50 bucks, or whatever. And suddenly I had, like, $3,000 pledged to the Red Cross if this guy wouldn't fix his bumper. And then I, like, wrote a blog about it, and I started soliciting donations from everyone. And we raised. I raised, like, 30 grand in, like, two days from people who were like, this guy's an asshole. Like, duh, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I. It was. I was getting media requests, like, it was insane. I was going to go on, like, Good Morning America and talk about it. And then I came home, like, on day two of this, and suddenly I had this, like, pit in my stomach and was like, this is wrong. And I don't know why. Like, I don't know. I don't. I can't articulate why this is wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is wrong. And I, like, pan. I had a panic attack, and I started. I literally remember Googling, like, why is this bad? Or, like, what is ethics? Or whatever. And that's what sent me eventually, on this last 20 years of my life journey, to figure out, like, why we make decisions, what's good or bad about them, how we can be better. All that stuff. It came from this very innocent, silly little moment. And ever since then, that was 2005, and for. So for 20 years, it's been pretty much all I've been Thinking about. And obviously in the shows I write, it comes out there.

[Adam Scott]

And so why was that wrong? Can you articulate that? Because to me, it is something that's hard to articulate, but there is something that feels that. I can see why it felt a little creepy.

[Mike Schur]

Different philosophers would tell you different reasons why it's wrong. Yeah, but they all would say it's wrong, which is what. So I remember thinking, like, if every philosopher in history is on one side and you're on the other side, like, you. You fucked up pretty badly. So the simplest way to put it is, like, if we allow as human beings, for the intrusion of other. Of unrelated calamities into our very basic interactions with each other, if that's allowable, then nothing would ever get done. Like, if you borrowed $5 from me and I came to you and said, like, hey, can I have that $5 back? And your response was, how can you want $5 back when people are dying in the South Sudan? Like, if you could just do that at any opportunity. Like, humans exist in a world where we have to relate to each other and we have to work out problems with each other, and if we're allowed to draw in completely unrelated disasters into every interaction and transaction and bargain and deal that we have with each other, we'll come to a complete halt. That's the simplest way to put it, is like, I was just using this thing that had nothing to do with what had happened in order to make this guy feel guilty about something that had happened to him that was unrelated. So that's the simplest way. And I feel like that realization made me. Is what made me crumble and be like, yeah, this. I'm not being fair to this guy.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, that's an interesting thing, though, because that inner. That feeling, that gut feeling that you had and thinking about the shows that you've made and on severance, you know, what we're trying to get at sometimes, I think is, you know, you can be cut off from part of your self, your identity, and your. The feeling of going through life. And even for Mark in the show, he's severed from a whole part of his life.

[Mike Schur]

But.

[Ben Stiller]

But I always feel like the interesting parts of that to explore are the things that are there, no matter what that we feel that we might cut off from. Or we might say, no, no, no, no. You know, intellectually, I don't. This is what I think. But yet something inside is gnawing at you. And that's always. That's a very real thing.

[Mike Schur]

Well, your show is asking Two very classic philosophical questions. The first one is about, like, what is the self? Like, who are you? Right. And there is a. There was a school of thought for a long time that the answer to, like, what is the self? Is memory. Like, the thing that makes you you is that you have these memories of your whole life that line up and that you can put in order and you have. It's a holistic identity, right? It's just your memories that has fallen out of favor in part because people started. And this always happens in philosophy. People started asking questions of, like, what if you're. What if you have amnesia? You're still you, but what the hell? Or you have Alzheimer's and you start to lose those memories. Like, you're still who you are, but you just don't have those memories. So it can't be only based on memory. But it was the first thing I thought of when I realized what the premise of the show was. And it's fascinating because you're basically saying, I still am myself, but I literally have no memory of who I am. Which is why in the last season, it starts to. The split personalities of the characters. You realize that the severed versions, the innies, are like, hey, I now have memories. I'm not. I now have a self that is different from the self that you're talking about. When you're arguing with yourself on the balcony, making the videos and going back and forth. That's two different people. It's not the same person with a choice to make. It's just two different people who were fundamentally opposed. And I got really excited when you were doing that because I was like, oh, yeah, this is it. This is the thing that the show has been building to is that one, especially once Mark and Helly sleep together, you're like, well, now it's not just memories. Now I have important bonds and relationships with people that I don't want to give up.

[Adam Scott]

Life defining feelings.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, like love and friendship. They always had friendship. That was one thing they always had. But then suddenly he has. He has, like, he's traveled with her. Right. Even if it's just within the building and they've fallen in love and they've had. And it's like, this is now a complete person. And so that's like one of the best developments of the second season to me is, like, that getting into that feeling of, like, you can't blame me for not wanting to leave, because me leaving is, you know, a year ago, if I had left and died, it wouldn't have meant that much. But now it does. And once it starts to mean something that you die, then you don't wanna die. And it's such a wonderful development. I thought it was like the, the brick by brick development of their actual lives as being three dimensional and interesting and sort of thick and sturdy makes the whole philosophy of the show, like, much more juicy. The other thing is that I really love is some moral philosophy has to do with the question of just, is it moral to have children? Right. And because we don't ask to be born, we're brought into a world that we did not ask to be brought into. And then we are confronted in the course of our lives with a lot of pretty intense stuff, especially right now. Right. If you have a kid right now, you're bringing that kid into the world. That where the planet is overheating and dying and there's war and strife and a lot of political stuff that we don't need to get into on this podcast and that no one, no one gets to weigh in. And there's a woman, I think it was still at ucla, who was investigating this and came to the conclusion that because we are confronted with so many moral dilemmas when we're born, it's not morally okay to have children. And her conclusion is that we should stop having children and the humanity should just die off because it's just not fair. But in your show, they are making the decision to be born. Really, like everyone has to make the decision themselves to start a new life. And so that's a fascinating question. And they don't truly know what they're getting into, but they are actually making the decision. They know what they're doing. Which is what I think leads to the most character drama with, you know, with Mark and Helly and Irving and people like that, because they went into it eyes wide open and then they. But they still brought something into the world that they couldn't anticipate. It's just a fascinating question.

[Ben Stiller]

There's also the idea that Audi, Mark might start to get envious of any Mark in a way.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

With the way you put it, Mike, it's like, you know, that he's creating a person who has none of that baggage and that wouldn't we all love to have that, you know, that you can't be him and that you can't have what he has.

[Mike Schur]

I think it must be kind of torturous for him to not be able to slalom back and forth. You know, like, I think he's probably extremely jealous of the other version of himself and that it's. It must be, in fact, perhaps more painful to know that he succeeded in theory, but doesn't actually get to experience the part of him that is happy and doesn't have the pain that he has. It's just. I mean, you know, what's funny is this is another thing I thought about a lot. I don't know to what degree you thought about this, but to me, every great TV show in history, nearly especially really every great drama, is at some level a Trojan horse, where, you know, it's hard to get people to watch TV shows. And at the beginning of every show, there's some kind of way that we're presenting the show to the public to try to get you interested. And nearly every great show is a little bit of a Trojan horse in that it's got a hook to get audiences to watch, but that's not really what it's about. The classic example is the Sopranos, which, if you go back and watch the first season, there's literally, I remember a poster of Gandolfini and it says, like, if one family doesn't kill him, the other one will. And it was like, he's a mobster, but he's in therapy. It was a very. It was very wry and kind of like, can you believe this? This guy's in therapy, he's a mobster. And of course, like, that's not what that show was at all. But if they had said, if the marketing campaign had been like, this is a, like, a searing portrait of a man on the razor thin line between, like, morality and immorality. And it's an existential, like, examination of the concept of the human soul and whether it's fundamentally good or bad. No one's watching that show, right? Watching the show about the mobster in therapy. But it's a hook and it brings you in. And I feel like when your show came out, it was like, it's about work life balance. That was the way it was presented. And I remember, like, in the third episode being like, this isn't about work life balance. Like, that is not the point of the show. But. But work life balance is a thing that everyone understands. And it helped people, I think, to, like, they just lowered. They pulled the velvet rope down with that campaign and allowed us to step over it and get inside the tent. And you need people to start watching the show. And then once they watch it, you can do what you really want to do. But I just, I always think about, sometimes my wife and I will watch the show. And at the end of whatever, like, incredibly, like, mind blowing, insane internal examination of the nature of the human soul has unfolded in front of us, my wife will turn to me and go, like, it's about work, life, balance.

[Adam Scott]

That's all it is.

[Ben Stiller]

But isn't that what you're doing constantly, Mike, when you're making your shows? It's like, because you have all, like you said, this is what you're constantly thinking about. And yet you're making these shows that on the outside, of course, are just, like, really funny. And to be really funny and to be exploring those questions is really challenging.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, that's certainly what I'm trying to do. Yeah. I mean, like, the Good Place is the perfect example because when I pitched the show to NBC, I was like, look, this is for better or worse, this show is about moral philosophy. And it's not like on the fringes. It's like baked into the middle of the show. And I said to them, I promise I will not make it feel like homework. Like, it's. No one's gonna feel like they're being lectured to or that they're in class. And then like, literally at the beginning of the third episode, Will Harper's character, Chidi, who is the professor, is standing in front of a blackboard and it says, like, Philosophy 101 on it. And I was like, oh, boy. But it is absolutely wrapping those ideas in, like a candy coated shell of comedy and of silliness and brightly colored sets. And I think, you know, that's okay. Like, that's not. No one's. It's not like you're not fooling anyone. You're simply really taking your ideas and putting them to a package that seems interesting and palatable to people. And after that, hopefully when they open the box and they see what's really inside, they'll be interested enough that they keep watching. But I just think that's the nature of certainly TV and generally entertainment as a whole, is to make you whatever idea you really want to say, you got to make it interesting to people and get them to tune in.

[Adam Scott]

I remember towards the end of Parks, it may even be the finale where Leslie Knope is talking about teams. There's one where she really explicitly is like, I really like teams. And I remember maybe it was at the table read of that, just seeing it all sort of come together and be like, oh, this whole thing, it's been about teamwork. It's been about linking arms and jumping off the cliff together. That is the show.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

So everything we're talking about is really touched upon in a lot of our hotline questions that we have coming up. People have been calling in, leaving us questions. Would you like to hang out and answer a couple of them with us?

[Mike Schur]

Of course I would.

[Adam Scott]

Fantastic.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, very cool. All right. Yeah, let's bring up the first one.

[Caller]

Hey, this is Chuck, and I was raised in a fundamentalist church that basically occult. And I, in watching Severance, I felt so much resonance with the Enies, and especially Irving, being a true believer at one point, like, he was in their process of waking up to the reality of Lumen and starting to see through the lies and realize the harm this institution was causing. When Irving gets to the point where he's like, let's burn this place to the ground, that was such a cathartic line, just coming from my own experience. And I was wondering how much of that journey was intentionally paralleling this sort of religious deconstruction process, or if that's just my reading of it. Either way, fantastic show. Thanks so much.

[Ben Stiller]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Well, I wasn't raised with religion, but that's so interesting to hear from people like Chuck, and I'm so glad this is meaningful for him. I think if we had Dan here, he would probably say something like, you know, there was no particular religion or religious theory in mind when he wrote it, but, you know, finding some meaning in it that's personal to you is great. What do you think, Ben?

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, that was always kind of. You know, part of the idea of what the season was going to be was, you know, these people are in this room world where they're so sheltered from anything other than what they're told or taught. I think that's always been part of it. And by the way, I also have to say, like, this doesn't have much to do with the question, but what I was always amazed with in the Office and in Parks and Rec, too, but even more specifically in the Office was that it always felt like it's such a contained environment that they're in that office and these characters are sort of like, everything happens in that place. There's sort of. It's almost like there's really hardly any other outside world. And I think in a way, that was a similar thing we had in Severance is like we had this room where there's this cubicle. And I thought about that a lot. It's like, we're in here a lot, but these characters are going to have these feelings and questions and all of those things. And I think the Kind of claustrophobic nature of those spaces really help to kind of give you the parameters as someone who's making the show. But also, like, it brings out a lot in terms of having these questions come to the surface.

[Mike Schur]

The thing that I think Severance does is. And this goes to the question that was just asked was, like, there is a feeling of, like, when these rooms and hallways are the entire world of the characters. The biggest deal in the world is, let's go to this wing or whatever. Right. It's like, that's the same thing for those characters as, let's go to Paris for the week. And it really confines them, and their world is so small that it highly concentrates their thoughts and feelings. And what that then allows you to do. And this is a tribute to Dan, who I've never met, but I'm a fan of, is when you get a character like Irving, who is brick by brick, slowly taking down the wall of his belief, tiny gestures become enormously powerful. So there's that moment where he opens the book and I think he's chewing gum or he's eating food, and he sticks it in the book. The egg.

[Ben Stiller]

He puts the egg in there.

[Mike Schur]

That's right. Yeah. And you have seen him be so rigid with protocol of what pictures are allowed on the desk and what does the book say about this and everything else. That. That act of rebellion, which is minuscule, you understand, as a viewer for him, that's he just threw a Molotov cocktail through a window, like. And that is such a satisfying thing from a writing standpoint to watch. If you're really specific with the location and the rules and the characters and everything else, tiny moments like that can have enormous. So I don't know, obviously, to what degree this was planned on his part. I would imagine a lot of it was. Cause I don't think you can. That sort of character development and that concentration of a person's life, you can't do that on the fly. Like, you're not. That's not an improvisational writing technique. That's a very carefully planned and executed thing that he's doing, and it's wonderful.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, I agree. Should we do one more question?

[Mike Schur]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Hello, Ben and Adam. My name is Ben Capreiro, and I'm calling from Chicago. I'm a big Severance fan, and really, I have a question for you, Adam. I'm just wondering one. Will there be a crossover episode between Severance and Parks and Rec? And regardless of that question, how do you think Leslie Knope and Ben Wyatt and the others from Parks and Rec would fare if they had become severed and that became a severed workplace. It's really fun to imagine and think about. Love the show. Praise Keir. Thank you.

[Adam Scott]

What do you think, Mike? Will there be a crossover episode between Severance and Parks and Rec?

[Mike Schur]

Well, this. This seems like the right moment to announce it. Yes, there will be.

[Adam Scott]

It's already been shot, produced, color corrected, and it is ready.

[Mike Schur]

I don't know. I mean, part of the brutality of the. Of the process of Severance is that the people who are severed are new people, right? Like, they don't have any connection at all to themselves. So the temptation would be to say, like, Ron Swanson will still be Ron Swanson. But the truth is, I don't think that's true. I think that the. I mean, it would be. I mean, you can do this with any show, obviously, is imagine the severed versions of them, but all you're doing is imagining wiping the slate clean and starting over. And you have to resist, I think, with the premise that. That Dan created, you have to resist the temptation to say, like, Leslie Knope would always be Leslie Knope. I think that's the whole point of Severance, is that that's not true. They would all start over and they would all be new people. I mean, the real question, I think, is, does the thing that they are lacking in their outy lives in any way translate to what they would be doing in their innie lives? And I think you would just have to say no. The answer is no. Like, Leslie wouldn't have any Leslie characteristics, and neither would Ron, and neither would anybody. Because in order for the premise of the show to hold up your show, you have to say that you're starting from scratch every time you do it.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, exactly. I might say, though, that they might have aspects of them that are just them anyway. You know, that would be without their life experience or anything like that.

[Mike Schur]

I also.

[Ben Stiller]

I love crossover episodes in shows. You do? I do, because I just think it could be fun. I mean, it's. You don't. Are you against them?

[Mike Schur]

No, I'm not against them at all. We did1onbrooklyn9 9. My wife was running for New Girl, and we did a Brooklyn Nine Nine. New Girl crossover. And it was a huge pain in the butt, and everyone was like, oh, the logistics were insane. And who's directing it and how does this work? And they're in our world, and we're in their world. And at the end of the day, when I watch it now, it's like, this is really fun. It's fun. Cause I like those characters, and I like these characters. Yeah, it was like Zoe and Jake Johnson and a couple other people, I think, went to New York and they, like Jake Peralta, Sandberg's character had to commandeer a vehicle, and it was being driven by Zooey Deschanel, and she had to come to the precinct and whatever. And it was like, it's very silly. But also, I'm with you on this. I'm realizing now, Ben, they're fun. They're just fun. It's like the two worlds that we, like, put them together.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, one of my favorite moments on the Office is when Ricky Gervais comes out of the elevator in that moment. I mean, that's just. I could watch that over and over again.

[Mike Schur]

It's wonderful.

[Adam Scott]

Was it on the Brooklyn episode or on a New Girl episode or both?

[Mike Schur]

So it was on both. Like, they. It was. We were in their world a little bit in their episode, and they were in our world a little bit in our episode.

[Adam Scott]

It sounds like a pain in the ass.

[Mike Schur]

It was a pain in the ass. But Liz Meriwether and Dave Finkel and Bret Baier, who were running that show, we just had a million phone calls about it, and we worked it out, and it's, like, totally fun. I think for fans of the show, it feels like this weird, you got your peanut butter in my chocolate. You got your chocolate in my peanut butter kind of a situation.

[Adam Scott]

You know, er and friends have had that crossover back in 1995.

[Mike Schur]

That was fun.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, wow.

[Adam Scott]

But they used to do it all the time on, like, Charlie's Angels and Love Boat, stuff like that.

[Mike Schur]

Yeah, it is. It does hearken back to an old era of TV from when we were kids. And I did not ever think about this, but Ben has made me realize I also love crossover episodes.

[Ben Stiller]

All right.

[Mike Schur]

That's what I got over this experience.

[Adam Scott]

Nothing else.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, Mike, thanks for joining us, man. This was so much fun. It's great.

[Mike Schur]

It is my pleasure. Congratulations on a truly wonderful and special show I will be watching every week.

[Adam Scott]

Thanks, man.

[Ben Stiller]

Same to you on all the. All the stuff you do. So good.

[Mike Schur]

Thanks, guys. Talk to you soon.

[Adam Scott]

Thanks, Mike.

[Ben Stiller]

All right, Bye, Mike.

[Adam Scott]

All right, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, Ben and I will be talking with the great Sandra Bernhard, who plays Cecily on Severance. Are you planning your next trip? Pack the ultimate traveling companion. A travel insurance plan from TravelGuard. From lost luggage to unexpected detours, TravelGuard has your back 24. 7 support means you're not on your own for those unexpected travel disruptions. Head over to travelguard.com Customize your plan and hit the road with more confidence. Travel Safe Travel Smart TravelGuard this is.

[Sandra Bernhard]

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[Mike Schur]

Limitations and exclusions will apply if you're.

[Adam Scott]

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[Sandra Bernhard]

Hi, everybody.

[Adam Scott]

Hi, Sandra.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Hi, guys. Wait, let me make you bigger. There we go.

[Ben Stiller]

How are you?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Good. How are you guys? Hi.

[Adam Scott]

Good.

[Sandra Bernhard]

I love that you're in your closet. Yes, that's.

[Adam Scott]

So it's the most soundproof place in the house, as it turns out.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Yeah. Because everything's absorbing the sound. All your.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Clothes. But later, when you put them on, they'll start whispering.

[Adam Scott]

That's right. They absorb all the information.

[Sandra Bernhard]

It's very severance of them.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, thanks for doing this, Sandra.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Oh, I mean, thank you.

[Ben Stiller]

First of all, we'd known each other for a very long time.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, like I told you recently, I mean, I saw your parents in Vegas opening for Diane Carroll.

[Adam Scott]

Wow.

[Sandra Bernhard]

I'm at the same. I think it was the Sands, and I think you were like. I think it was 1968 or 69. And you said you were probably three or four years old and were there. Yes, probably up in your room, unless you were down at the. At the craps tables, which is.

[Ben Stiller]

That wasn't allowed to completely within reason that.

[Sandra Bernhard]

That Ben Stiller would already be, like, roaming Lucky 7.

[Adam Scott]

And, Sandra, what were you doing there at that time when you saw Ben Stiller?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, I was heartbroken because we were supposed to be seeing Barbra Streisand in a makeup show that she was supposed to have done in 64 or 5, but my parents, in their inimitable style, didn't manage to, like, reserve seats. So we ended up seeing more of a lounge show with, of course, a fabulous Diane Carroll and Stiller and Mira opening. And it's where I should have been, right there in the lounge with my parents. You know, with my dream of entering the entertainment world, I was like, I was right at home. I was probably wearing some sort of a beaded gown or something at 13, knowing me and just loving every minute of it.

[Adam Scott]

And when did you guys first meet, Ben and Sandra?

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like we met when my parents took us to see you perform somewhere. I mean, I want to say, like, were you. Did you do the Improv back in the day?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Yeah, I did.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like we hanging out at the Improv, which was the comedy club on. What was that? On 44th street or. Yeah, but, yeah, I feel like we go back that far. And then you were just so funny doing the most unique standup slash music combination thing. Personality thing. Nobody ever has done what you do, I think, since or before. I could ask you so many questions about how you developed your onstage Persona. I'm just curious, like, where that came from.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, I can tell you in a nutshell that growing up, being exposed to people like your parents, like all the great entertainers of that time, you know, from Barbra Suisan and Carol Burnett and Carol Channing and even people like Tina Turner, you know, people who just cut their teeth in situations where they had to, like, push through. I mean, they had to do it all. They had to sing, they had to tell jokes, they had to dance, they told stories. They were like, you know, they were immersed in everything that was entertainment, and that's what I grew up on. And so when it came time for me to put my shows together, it was like it was in my DNA. But of course, it was postmodern because, you know, I came through the other side of feminism and, you know, and all of the struggles of, you know, the Vietnam era and civil rights. So I was, like, kind of a culmination of all of those experiences. But I still wanted to, like, do it all in my way. And that. That was the jumping off place for me. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Without you, I'm Nothing is just incredible. The movie.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Thank you.

[Adam Scott]

And people should check it out if they haven't seen it.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, it was great. Cause it was on TCM the other night, part of their queer cinema package to top off Gay Pride Month. But I felt like it went far beyond that. I mean, I've never super identified with one thing about who I am. I mean, above all, I guess I'm a woman. And then I guess the gay thing comes in. But I wanted to blow it wide open. And I've never, like, said, oh, I'm only doing this for this audience. I'm doing it for everybody who's open to something that's unique and really an amalgam of all the great things I grew up with. And that sort of sums it up.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I think also there's always a fearlessness about your work and just being willing to just say what you think that's funny and kind of shocking and hilarious and smart and weird and great. And. I don't know, it's like you have such a unique Persona, and then the world kind of discovered it with King of Comedy. Would you say in terms of. That was probably a big breakthrough where you played the crazed fan who kidnaps Jerry Lewis with Robert Tyne?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's. I think Masha, who was the character. It was so close to who I was at that time, because I was willing to do anything to get the attention I wanted. And so Was Masha. Obviously, Masha was much more unhinged than I am or I was.

[Ben Stiller]

But it's funny. There's a fine line between a person who's actually unhinged and a person who's ambitious and trying to get what you want. Right.

[Adam Scott]

And show business.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Exactly. Absolutely. You know, and just like, I was running around like a crazy person. Anybody I got to meet, it was like, I was just, like, voracious. I can't wait to meet here.

[Mike Schur]

I'm meeting here. This is insane.

[Sandra Bernhard]

It's so fun. It's so glamorous. You know, it was like that was my dream to meet all these people. And I don't even think as a child I understood what the impetus was. It was just, like, the desire and the drive to be around, you know, really talented people is what was so important to me, I think, even more than being successful in a certain level.

[Adam Scott]

And then you find yourself there with Jerry Lewis, Robert De Niro and Martin Scorsese. What was it like working with Jerry Lewis on those crazy, intense scenes?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, he was like, you know, the biggest misogynist on the face of the planet. I mean, he was very upfront about that, and he was highly insulting and very, very mean to me. He said I had fish lips. In the scene where he hits me and I'm supposed to just fall over. He wanted to hit me and have me fall into the glass. Parsons table lit with a hundred candles. He wanted me, and I was in high heels and bra and panties. I was like, I can't do that. That's not what I do. I'm not a stunt person, you know. And eventually Marty stepped in and said, no, we'll just put you up against the wall and he'll fake it you, and you'll just slide down the wall. But. But for a while there, I was like, I mean, I hope I don't fucking end up, like, you know, with a cracked skull or a broken back.

[Ben Stiller]

So it sounds like the whole movie there was, like, actually, like, a lot of, like, real sort of, like, energy going on where it was, like, crossing the line sometimes.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Absolutely, yeah. And he was very into lecturing. Like, you know, he would pontificate about how to direct. So he'd come in and, like, you know, with his notepad and, like, give us ideas.

[Adam Scott]

Well, all of that kind of behind the scenes stuff kind of resulted in a really combustible relationship. And those scenes are unlike anything else.

[Sandra Bernhard]

It's really true. I mean, I think he was stunned, you know, that I was improv. I was improvising and singing, you know, the song to him, and he was all. He was visibly miserable. You know, it was incredible. I mean, it was just like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna do this now. I'm just gonna walk into this movie and make this shit happen.

[Ben Stiller]

And then cut to severance and doing the show with you. I was so excited to work with you because I feel like you have so. And you've done it in your work in other shows and movies, but, you know, you have that aspect of your personality that's incredibly funny and outgoing, but then there's this other layer that's underneath that I find really, really interesting that is, like, same way with Adam. You know, Adam done a lot of television and done movies where he explored that, but people knew him mainly through comedy. But I always feel like it's so much fun when someone who's known comedically, primarily does something that is. Not that. I agree, almost more interesting. And I'm wondering, what was your feeling coming on to do the show? And I'd imagine it must be strange to come into this environment that we're working on and kind of jump into it. What was the experience like for you?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, I've really learned over the years to just be in the moment and also respect the space that has been created by all the other, you know, elements, the actors, the, you know, the producers. And so I've learned to put my ego aside and because, you know, as an actress, you walk in and go, are people going to like me? Am I going to be comfortable? Sort of, like, it's really secondary in these situations, especially with a show that has the impact of severance. So I came in just sort of quietly and, you know, hair, makeup, everybody. Everybody on the production, as you know, is. Takes their job very seriously. So it was like, you know, adjusting to that and then going on the set and just observing, you know. And I think that that also helps in a setting like severance to just take it all in and not ask too many questions, because it's like it's all going to unfold. And I think that that's the brilliance and beauty of the show. So for me, it was fine. I just, like. I felt like I fit in. I sensed who Cecily the character was. I didn't. There wasn't too much I needed to know or ask about her. And I just sort of, you know, melted and sunk into who she was and got to work. It was very comfortable and seamless and also intense because the set is very daunting. You know, it's constantly being shifted around.

[Ben Stiller]

A lot of hallways. I remember the first few days we were just having you walk through hallways a lot. And I remember thinking, like, I hope Sandra doesn't think this is just like walking through hallways.

[Sandra Bernhard]

But I. But I understand the impact of the hallways. You know what I mean? And so I went with it, and I kind of, like. I kind of loved it in a way. Walking, running, stopping, you know, it's like all the physicality plays such a huge part of. And the less you say sometimes, the more impact it has. So there wasn't. There really wasn't anything that threw me or made me uncomfortable or made me question my importance in, you know, in this role. And I just. Everything is so beautifully orchestrated and thought out, so I knew that whatever I was doing would be put into the mix.

[Ben Stiller]

I find it always overwhelming to go on any set when you're working because it's such a vulnerable thing, too. And you're. And especially if you're going into an environment that has already been going and you don't quite know, it's much easier to be on a set every day. Right. Because you get used to it, and you get used to everybody and the cameraman is. You know, his name, and it's just. It doesn't. But of course, my goodness. Coming in, and I thought you were amazing coming in, and I was. One of my favorite moments that you have in the show is that moment in episode 210, you know, in the last episode of the season, where Adam comes at you with the gun, and you guys have this, like, face off with the gun. I remember us figuring it out because we had to figure out, like, how is this gonna work where, you know, he's got a gun? How are you gonna let him in there? What is it gonna be? And the way that you guys just sort of, like, felt that thing out, and it wasn't scripted lines, it was verbal, but it was just sort of like. I don't know, like, the energy between you two guys, I had imagined in my head. I think only these two actors could pull this off, this kind of. This plot point of having to get you out of there, you know?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And it was so funny to me.

[Sandra Bernhard]

I thought. I mean, you came up with, you know, the brilliant line, step off, fuck off, which is hysterical.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, to me, is a classic Sandra Byrne heart line.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Sandra Bernhard]

And I just have to say, out of all the things I've done over my career, I have never encountered more people who stop me and say, you were incredible in Severance.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, that's great.

[Sandra Bernhard]

They were totally blown away. And I'm like, like, oh, my God. It's like everywhere I go now on a plane and I'm in the grocery store. Oh, my God. It's like. I knew the show had great impact, but the combination of people kind of, you know, some people really knowing me, kind of knowing me came together in such a beautiful way. And I was just like, five minutes in severance is like, you know, 15 hours in any other show. So you guys should really congratulate yourself for that impact.

[Adam Scott]

Thank you. Well, I was so, so excited when Ben told me that you were gonna play Cecily. And then getting to hang out with you and talk to you, and I think I just immediately wanted to talk about Letterman and King of Comedy, and you're just the coolest person. And getting to shoot that scene was such a treat and so much fun.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel really grateful that we had the chance to work together, and I hope we work together again more. And we don't know what happened to Cecily at the end of the season.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, we. You don't know what happened. And I think. I don't know. There's no sort of limitation to what the characters do or where they go.

[Adam Scott]

Well, there's the other classic line that I've seen memed, which is, it's the fucking spouse. Is that the line?

[Sandra Bernhard]

Yes, yes, yes. People love that. They love it.

[Ben Stiller]

It's great.

[Adam Scott]

You should be very proud, Sandra.

[Mike Schur]

Thank you.

[Sandra Bernhard]

Well, I'm always proud every day of.

[Adam Scott]

Almost everything I do.

[Ben Stiller]

Adam.

[Sandra Bernhard]

No, I'm just. Thank you, guys.

[Adam Scott]

Thanks, Sandra.

[Ben Stiller]

It was great talking to you. Thanks.

[Adam Scott]

Great seeing you. And that's it for this episode. The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam. We'll be back again next week. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey Red Hour Productions and. Great Scott.

[Ben Stiller]

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your other podcast platform of choice. It really makes a difference.

[Adam Scott]

If you've got a question about severance, call our hotline, 212-830-3816. We just might play your voicemail and answer your question on the podcast.

[Ben Stiller]

Our executive producers are Bari Finkel, Gabrielle Lewis, Naomi Scott and Leah Rhys Dennis. This show is produced by Ben Goldberg. It's mixed and mastered by Chris Basel. We have additional engineering from Javi Cruces.

[Adam Scott]

Show clips are courtesy of fifth season music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff.

[Ben Stiller]

And the team at Red John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, Gian Pablo Antonetti, Martin Balderuten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker and Sam Lyon.

[Adam Scott]

Annette Grait Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin and Christy Smith. At Rise Management, I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott.

[Ben Stiller]

Thank you for listening.