S1E4: The You You Are

Summary

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
Episode: S1E4: The You You Are
Release Date: January 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In the fourth episode of The Severance Podcast, hosts Ben Stiller and Adam Scott delve deep into the intricacies of Severance Season 1, Episode 4, titled "The You You Are." Written by Carrie Drake and directed by Aoife McCardle, this episode continues to unravel the complex dynamics within the Lumen Industries’ severed workers, known as "Innes." Stiller and Scott provide an in-depth analysis, exploring character developments, pivotal scenes, and the overarching themes that make Severance a standout workplace thriller.

Collaboration with Director Aoife McCardle

Ben Stiller highlights the seamless integration of Aoife McCardle into the creative process:

“Aoife's visual style was incredible... We were all jumping in together, really.” (02:15)

Adam Scott adds, emphasizing the challenges and creativity that McCardle brought to the table:

“She was really, really inventive. And there were some shots in this episode that really blew me away.” (03:21)

Their collaborative approach allowed for a cohesive visual continuation from previous episodes, while introducing fresh visual twists that enhanced the storytelling.

Key Scene Analyses

Helly’s Confrontation with Cobell

A central scene involves Helly (Britt Lower) confronting Cobell (Patricia Clarkson) with a paper cutter, threatening to cut off her fingers unless she secures a video camera for her resignation message. Stiller praises Lower's performance:

“This is one of the most painful scenes to watch... Britt is incredible.” (11:02)

Adam Scott reflects on the scene’s intensity:

“Helly will not stop. She believes that this place is bullshit and she is being treated inhumanely.” (53:58)

Dylan’s Stapler Exchange with Burt

Another memorable moment features Dylan (Zach Cherry) wielding a stapler as a weapon during an encounter with Christopher Walken’s character, Burt. Stiller captures the humor and tension:

“Dylan grabbing a stapler... it’s so Dylan.” (12:11)

Scott emphasizes the impact of Walken’s presence:

“He is just completely there and relaxed and just in it. He’s unbelievable.” (13:29)

The UUR and Acrostic Poem

The episode introduces the UUR (Undo Employee Handbook) through an acrostic poem that Mark (Adam Scott) discovers. The playful yet profound nature of the poem is dissected:

“D is for dreaming... I is for eyes which observe us.” (27:06)

Stiller connects this to their own experiences:

“You and your search party tote and me and my eastbound and down fleece half zip couldn't be more excited about those things.” (17:27)

Themes and Character Development

The hosts discuss the duality of the severed workers’ existence, highlighting the psychological strain of being severed from their personal lives. Mark’s growing curiosity and Helly’s rebellious nature are explored in depth:

“Mark is starting to just feel a little different about all this.” (43:22)
“Helly’s attempted suicide shows her desperation to escape the severed reality.” (53:34)

They also touch upon the bleak reality of the severed workers, emphasizing the depersonalization and control exerted by Lumen Industries:

“There’s definitely a lot more going on than you see. It’s a little bit creepy.” (04:51)
“The work is mysterious and important.” (36:03)

Production Insights and Anecdotes

Ben Stiller shares anecdotes about filming, particularly the use of props and set design to enhance authenticity:

“Milchick's headphones... just took me back to, like, 1975.” (10:03)
“The drill sound in the funeral scene was so ominous... our sound mixers nailed it.” (49:34)

Adam Scott reflects on directing intricate scenes:

“It was fun to see how that sequence came together.” (47:27)

Conclusion: Impact of the Episode

Stiller and Scott conclude that Episode 4 significantly deepens the narrative, blending dark themes with nuanced character arcs. The introduction of high-stakes drama and emotional depth sets the stage for future developments in Season 2:

“These themes are much more than what the show is about in terms of someone who's in that state.” (53:58)
“This episode really defines Cobell in terms of her commitment to this company.” (48:39)

Overall, The You You Are epitomizes the show's ability to balance workplace thriller elements with profound psychological exploration, making it a pivotal episode in the Severance series.

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Note: All timestamps refer to the podcast transcript provided for "S1E4: The You You Are."

Transcript

[Ben Stiller]

This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Yeah, sure thing.

[Adam Scott]

Hey, you sold that car yet?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy, the guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency. No interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient.

[Patricia Clarkson]

Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle. For convenience.

[Ben Stiller]

Pick up.

[Patricia Clarkson]

These may apply.

[Ben Stiller]

I'm Ben Stiller.

[Adam Scott]

I'm Adam Scott, and this is the.

[Ben Stiller]

Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

[Adam Scott]

Today we're recapping season one, episode four, the youe Ur, written by Carrie Drake and directed by Aoife McCardle. Now, you want to talk about how you found Aoife and how you guys took. Because the episode really feels like a continuation visually of what you did with the first few episodes, of course, with some kind of different visual twists. Aoife's incredible.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, she is Irish. And Katie Pruitt, who I've worked with for a long time, who is one of the producers on the show and AD and has done a lot on the show, showed me some of her work, and she had done a bunch of music videos and commercials and this little independent called Kissing Candace. And I just thought her visual style was pretty incredible. And, you know, when we were trying to figure out how to make the show, I knew I was gonna direct six of the episodes, and then the other three, we were gonna get one or two other directors. And when I saw Aoife's work, I thought, oh, well, she really has this just amazing eye. And tonally, I felt like she could get what the show was about. And we had a really great talk on the phone, and she came over and we decided to have her do the middle three episodes. So never met her before this process, and we kind of jumped in, and I think she did just really, really beautiful work. Especially we were shooting everything at the same time kind of in terms of the first three episodes, we were creating this thing on the fly, sort of. Even though we'd prepped for a long time, we were figuring out what felt right and what didn't feel right, and she was jumping in kind of at the same time. So it wasn't like she looked at the first three Episodes and started on her episodes. We just were sharing all the illustrations and references and talking about movies and images and, you know, kind of all working together. Jessica Lee Gagne, our cinematographer, was shooting with her also. So it kind of was, you know, like we were all jumping in together, really.

[Adam Scott]

I do remember season one shooting. We sometimes would switch back and forth between you and Aoife in the same day if we happened to have stuff that needed to be shot out. You know, we would go back and forth day to day, but also sometimes in the same day.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And that wasn't ideal for anybody. But as the shoot schedule went along and time started to sort of go by and run out, we would try to do that sometimes and try to sort of like, you know, join forces with our crew and be able to take advantage of shooting at the same location. But that's tough. I'm sure that was tough for you as an actor to have to jump between episodes sometimes.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's challenging, but I thought it was certainly, you know, sometimes jumping between innie and outie in the same day and then back again was challenging, but it just kind of forces you into a corner to figure stuff out, just get it done. But I loved working with Aoife, too. She was really, really inventive. And there were some shots in this episode that really blew me away, having not seen it in a while. Well, let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, we'll jump into episode four. At Lumen, things are not always what they seem. Mark, Dylan, Helly and Irving in MDR make a great team. But what else lies beyond the four white walls of their department? There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed.

[Ben Stiller]

There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy.

[Adam Scott]

I agree. There are more Q's than A's in this place.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, for sure.

[Adam Scott]

But luckily, your workplace doesn't have to be so dysfunctional. Thanks to Confluence by Atlassian.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like something like Confluence could really help those severed workers. You know, they're kind of always organizing and trying to come up with group ideas and things that need organization and back and forth and a lot of creative interaction in the workspace.

[Adam Scott]

Confluence is the connected workspace, where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time. Letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence AI teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

[Ben Stiller]

I think any boost in productivity, especially with a group like the Severed group, imagine how many more files they could complete if they had Confluence.

[Adam Scott]

Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn [e-mail] confluence that's a T L a S S I a n.com confluence c o n F L U E N C E.

[Ben Stiller]

For the past three seasons of Gone south, we've covered one story per season. We tried to figure out who killed Margaret Coon.

[Adam Scott]

Did you tell me, I'm gonna kill you? I said, well, do it, bitch.

[Ben Stiller]

Go ahead and do it. We delved into the violent world of the Dixie Mafia.

[Adam Scott]

I'm an outlaw, and I was a thief, But I'm far from being the psychotic nutcase that I've been made out to be.

[Ben Stiller]

And we tracked a serial killer in Laredo, Texas.

[Adam Scott]

Just turn around, Please turn around. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Ben Stiller]

Now, Gone south is back for a fourth season, but this time we're doing things a little differently. So in gone South Season 4, we'll be bringing you new stories every week with no end in sight. I'm Jed Lipinski. Welcome back to Gone south, an Odyssey original podcast. Listen and follow now on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every week.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, so episode four picks up with Helly in the break room, just kind of where we left her in episode three, reading the compunction statement, which is such a lumini title for what scene she's reading. And so, Dan, it's fantastic.

[Ben Stiller]

There's just so much great dance stuff in this episode in terms of just lumen verbiage and scripture. There's a lot of scripture in this one.

[Adam Scott]

There really is. This is the episode, and I forgot it was where the first big heli and mark really butt heads over fundamental lumen principles. And it's really fun to see that kind of burst out into the open.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Okay. So she's reading the compunction statement, and Milchick allows her to take a break for the day, and she goes into the elevator. But for the Inian, we get to kind of experience this along with heli, and it's fascinating to see. Breaking for the day means pausing for, like, two minutes to walk to the elevator, and then the elevator closes, opens right back up, and she's back at work. That's what finishing a day at work and starting the next day at work is like. For an innie, which always just rattles.

[Ben Stiller]

My mind and makes me tense when I think of that. That for these innies, they're just leaving and coming right back and always be awake. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I wonder what that would be like to have the rest physically happening inside your body, but your mind doesn't get a break.

[Ben Stiller]

But also, doesn't that just make you think about how weird sleep is?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, sleep is super weird.

[Ben Stiller]

Whenever it gets time to sleep for me, I'm always so happy to go to sleep. I don't know why, but it's just like. It's that thing where you're. I guess because I'm tired. But, like, what is that? That we have that rest and that sort of break from consciousness, and then I always look forward to my dreams.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, I had the same feeling last night. In fact, I was exhausted and so happy to just lie down. And I chose last night to watch Friends as I went to sleep, and it was so pleasant. And I think as I get older, I get more and more excited about sleep and then more excited about talking about how much sleep I got the next day.

[Ben Stiller]

I think that's exactly right. I just proved that I'm old.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, I think we just. We both just did.

[Ben Stiller]

I love going to sleep.

[Adam Scott]

Sleep is wonderful.

[Ben Stiller]

People can play this podcast to help them fall asleep.

[Adam Scott]

That's right. As they're doing right now.

[Ben Stiller]

Can I tell you something? In the break room, the other thing that I just really connect with are Milchick's headphones. Kat Miller, our prop genius person, found these old 70s headphones that I used to have, these Sennheiser yellow foam headphones that just took me back to, like, 1975. And that's what Milchik wears.

[Adam Scott]

So were those literally the ones you had as a kid?

[Ben Stiller]

No, no, no. But the same model and, you know, the same trigger.

[Adam Scott]

That's what I mean.

[Ben Stiller]

You know when you see. And when you see something. Yeah, at the same time. And when you see something like that you haven't seen from your childhood, it just, like, triggers so much stuff. And I was like, yes, those are the ones. And they look just. Tramiel looks so cool.

[Adam Scott]

I was just gonna say he looks so cool with them on. I think Tramiel just looks cool. You put anything on his face or he just looks awesome in everything.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, he does. And, Brit, let's just, like, you know, just comment on what an incredible performance in that scene.

[Adam Scott]

For sure.

[Ben Stiller]

This is, like, we're just seeing the underside of what the reality of being an innie is.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. You know, one thing I want to say, too, about how incredible Britt is in this scene and why it's such a painful scene to watch, or one of the many reasons it is, is because as an audience, so far, we've experienced heli as this superhero Fig. Like, she is the kind of voice of reason and justice down here just in the first few episodes, and we see them break her here.

[Ben Stiller]

It's disconcerting because, you see, this is someone who is very strong and really rebelling against this, and you're kind of with her on that. And then all of a sudden you see, oh, this is something that's going to be very, very hard for her to survive or fight against. But it also kind of makes you, I think, in a way, just realize that how serious this whole thing is and the underbelly of, you know, what's going on here.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. So after the break room, we're back at mdr, and then Burt just sort of walks in the room, Christopher Walken. And we have this hilarious moment of Dylan just grabbing a stapler and, like, wielding it as a weapon.

[Ben Stiller]

I think we even might have slipped in a little gun sound effect there. When he opens up the stapler. It's like a really. Yeah. And just a classic. Dylan Howans. The Wet Fuck did you get?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, I was gonna comment on the use of how in the Wet Fuck, too. It's just so Dylan.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And very Danish.

[Ben Stiller]

And, you know, all of a sudden, we got Christopher Walken in MDR there, and he's, you know, trying to connect with the group. And, you know, to me, anytime, you know, just. I'm just such a Chris Walken fan, but just the fact he's in the show, anytime he shows up, to me, it's just so much fun. And I think Chris really enjoyed the dialogue, Burt's dialogue, you know, and his turn of phrase. And, you know, I think as an actor, that kind of thing, just from the little I worked with him and, you know, seen his process that, you know, the words are really what does it for him and how he kind of sort of like, sort of grasps onto those and finds ways to bring them alive that I think turn him on. And that's me speaking for Chris Walken's his process. But just watching how he works and it's just so, as we know, iconic.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Watching the episode, he's just incredible. He's so present and getting to work with him and actually watch it happening, you see just how brilliant it is. You can feel it. Just watching the Guy, he is just completely there and relaxed and just in it. And, like you said, kind of wrapping himself around the words and really owning them. And it's really a unique thing. And you see why he is who he is. He's just unbelievable.

[Ben Stiller]

And I think he really loved the idea that he was bringing in the handbook totes.

[Adam Scott]

So he's dropping off literal tote bags that were constructed and made to carry around your Lumen handbook. And it's the new handbook tote. So I'm assuming that every season or every year, there's a new handbook tote that comes out.

[Ben Stiller]

I guess it seems like, you know, that's the thing down on the severed floor. Little things like that are a big deal, and everybody gets excited for the smallest thing because that's all they have.

[Adam Scott]

That's it. That is absolutely it. And Irving is really excited that he gets to see and receive a handbook tote before the official release.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes, exactly. It's definitely cool merch. There's a lot of merch that I feel. I mean, we get into it in this episode, too, with the finger traps, right?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And that's all the Dylan world of how he really accrues merch and prizes. And it's, again, something. I think it's very specific to this office culture, too, and the idea of.

[Adam Scott]

These little rewards, they're like trophies almost.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And they're goals for people to attain. And I have a bunch of Lumen mugs. And do you have. And you must have stuff over the years.

[Adam Scott]

What about merch that you've received from work or around? Is there any merch? Because in entertainment, it seems to be, but I think it's everywhere. With any big company, there's always, like, ephemera that's coming in. Is there any merch that's been particularly useful in your life or that you've hung on to for a long time?

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I'm wearing my NYX hoodie right now, but that's just. I don't know if that's merch or just like. That's swag. No, swag is free stuff that you get. Yeah, I bought this.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, that's merch.

[Ben Stiller]

Merch and swag that somebody should name a production company.

[Adam Scott]

Merchant Swag.

[Ben Stiller]

Merchant Swag. You know, I think Christine was on Search Party, the show. Search Party.

[Adam Scott]

Great show.

[Ben Stiller]

And I. Yeah, I got a tote bag from Search Party that I use all the time, even though I wasn't even on it. I just benefited from being married to her.

[Adam Scott]

And for whatever reason, that particular Tote bag has just sort of stuck with you.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. And she'll make fun of me about it all the time. So I see you've got your search party tote bag.

[Adam Scott]

I have.

[Ben Stiller]

Which is a great show.

[Adam Scott]

Such a good show. I have a. An eastbound and down fleece, like, half zip that, for whatever reason, has just stuck with me. And it was, like, 15 years ago, but it's so comfortable. And it has the added benefit of saying eastbound and down on it. Which is cool.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah, very cool. And actually, it's really great to have those things as the years go by and you're like, oh, my God, that movie. We did that long ago.

[Adam Scott]

You know, I just have to say that we've now been talking about our own merch that we have in our lives in a pretty excited fashion now for, like, five minutes. And we were just making fun of the people at Lumen for being so excited about their. Their merch.

[Ben Stiller]

So we're no more evolved. We're in our own version. Right? We're all. We're in a simulation.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

It's obviously, we think we're so evolved, but it's. That's just our version of handbook. Totes.

[Adam Scott]

I think you're right. You and your search party tote and me and my eastbound and down fleece half zip couldn't be more excited about those things.

[Ben Stiller]

I can just hear Irving saying, how dare you? How dare you judge us?

[Adam Scott]

Exactly. And he's right. Okay, so Helly comes back from the break room, and Mark just sort of asks her, how many times? So you. And looking at Dylan, you get the sense that both of those guys have spent time in the break room, and it is tough.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. And she says, what, like 1,072?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, that's right. Which is a lot.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I mean, and then you're sort of like, okay, I don't know. I feel like there's already something going on between Mark and Helly where you kind of know she's changed something in you just from the minute she showed up. It's underneath the surface.

[Adam Scott]

I think so. And I think Mark is trying to push against it and push it away because he. Yeah, you know.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Okay. And then we jump to O and D and Irving visiting Burt at ond. He takes Bert up on his directions on how to get to ond, and he goes and pays him a visit.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, you wanna watch that clip?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Rise up from your deathbed and sally forth more. Perfect for the struggle. Exactly. I can't believe you. You have this. I'm sorry, what time is it? I have to go.

[Adam Scott]

Wow. So they. They briefly touch hands there, and it's so beautiful. But obviously it freaks Irving out, this intimacy.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. It's. You know, in a lot of ways, they're in this version of a prison, really, you know, where the smallest thing, everything is, you know, under surveillance. There's that aspect to it. I just think there's so much great chemistry between those two guys. And even just hearing them quote the Egan verses, it's. It almost sounds like it's just like it's classical. It's just great to watch them do that. And John and Chris, it's never not exciting working with him and so directing wise. And I know Aoife felt this too, that you kind of just set up the camera and let them do their thing and maybe get a little feedback, but it's really two incredibly accomplished actors who just are connecting.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And these guys and their relationship bring so much emotion and tenderness to the show and humanity to the show. It really just is so lovely whenever they have a scene together. And also, it's really interesting watching these two characters and sort of their relationship sort of sprouts from their shared love of art and how they sort of reflect and react to the art around the severed floor and the fact that Irving has long admired the art around the severed floor, and he gets to actually meet one of the people responsible for the placement and timing of the art, and you start realizing, like, the art and all of the details around where it comes from and what it means is so important. And like you were saying before, there's such limited stimuli down there that this is, like their entertainment. This is movies, tv. This is everything. Are these paintings and what they mean and where they came from and how long they hung in a particular spot. It's all. The importance of all of this is huge.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes, exactly. Right. It's the only visual stimuli, really, that they get outside of these white walls. And they're completely computer screens.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

I also think what John brings to Irving is this piousness, this incredible belief in the religion of what it is to work at Lumen. And his belief in that as an actor, to me, is what makes everything so real. It just gives it depth. And then in the next scene where he's going back to MDR and he passes by this conference room where Milchick left the copy of the Uur.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

It's again, a momentous moment.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. So momentous that he doesn't even touch it or go into the room.

[Ben Stiller]

Right.

[Adam Scott]

Like he has to just go tell Mark.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Because he wants to follow protocol. Right. Because you're department chief, so he wants to talk to you first before he even talks to Milchick. And it was important to have that book be sort of, you know, a standout down there, even in terms of like the color and.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

That jacket cover shot is just also one of my favorite little images in the show. Just.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, it's just this kind of ridiculous self help book. I love self help books, so.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. So have you always read self help books? I know that you and Jeanine Garofalo wrote one back in the day that I had.

[Ben Stiller]

That's right. That's right.

[Adam Scott]

Feel this book. Is that.

[Ben Stiller]

Feel this book. Right. Which it was not a bestseller.

[Adam Scott]

Well, I bought it.

[Ben Stiller]

Thank you, Adam. And the uur kind of to me, what's so funny about it is it's kind of almost like real. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I remember shooting this scene where I'm reading the U. You are in the bathroom stall and I was reading the book and Dan Erickson had written a few chapters just so we had them in the book for me to read. And I remember I would have trouble keeping it together because the text was deeply funny. I mean, it's really funny.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I mean it's Dan's specialty. He could write the whole book. And I think Rickens, you. You are. Is available on Apple Books. Yes. There's some version of it and I mean it's just so weirdly self important personal, where he's kind of working out his own stuff in his life in the guise of a self help book.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

And then it's impossible not to hear Michael Chernis voice reading it because it's just so pompous and ridiculous. But the other thing, and this is a part of this episode that gets sort of kicked off is that for any Mark to read this, it is anything but funny. It's literally like changing his world for sure.

[Adam Scott]

I mean your job needs you, not the other way around. As something he reads in this book. And that, I mean that is a brand new world shattering idea.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

He has never thought of this job which is everything to him being turned around like that. The idea of his employer needing him rather than that is brand new. And that combined with the influence that and ideas that Helly are bringing in to mdr things really start to snowball a bit for Mark.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And that's something I think is really interesting about the tone of the show is that it is Funny we're seeing, you know, we're saying how funny and ridiculous, you know, this sort of silly take on a self help book is. But we're also giving it the weight for the characters who don't have that sense of humor. Who wouldn't know? Like any mark, these innocence. And it actually becomes a huge plot point in the show and really kind of like shifts a lot of things in terms of what goes on from here on in.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ben Stiller]

And just, you know, how Irving gets Mark and Dylan to come and look at the book and how they're all staring. And Aoife did a great job with that shot of the three of you kind of just staring at the book on the chair. And that scene plays out really beautifully in that three shot where you're kind of going back and forth about, well, what should we do with this thing? And you know, again, how Irving is so by the book and everybody's quoting, you know, what the handbook would say to do in a situation like this. Irving says, maybe it's a loyalty test. Just like the spicy candy. What is the spicy candy? What was that?

[Adam Scott]

The spicy candy. Jesus.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's kind of like the bad soap that, you know.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, and then Dylan, just like great Dylan dialogue of, you know. No, it's booty. It's booty with your name on it.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

I love that.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, it's a big deal to figure out, like, what to do with this thing. And then Dylan is kind of, you know, secretly obsessed with it too. And, you know, there's a scene where he goes in and, you know, kind of roots around in your drawer and finds it and reads the acrostic poem.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, let's listen to that.

[Ben Stiller]

D is for dreaming the start of it all.

[Adam Scott]

E is for energy.

[Ben Stiller]

Breaking down walls. S is for stewardship of home and of earth. T is for terror which gives us more worth. I is for eyes which observe us.

[Adam Scott]

With love.

[Ben Stiller]

Until N, meaning newness rains down from above. And why that's a question we needn't now ponder. For destiny, friends, shall deliver all yonder.

[Adam Scott]

Hey. How are you?

[Ben Stiller]

Good.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah? Seems like you're getting the hang of stuff here. I mean, it's wild. Again, under these crazy conditions, without access to any media, something as ridiculous as an acrostic poem or juvenile is profound, truly.

[Ben Stiller]

And T is for terror which gives us more worth.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Ben Stiller]

It's like. What does that mean?

[Adam Scott]

Well, as with any acrostic poem, there are two or three that just sort of really seem jammed in there and don't make a whole lot of sense.

[Ben Stiller]

I is for eyes which observe us with love. No, that would be either. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I is not for I's at all.

[Ben Stiller]

And Y is now the word Y which should be W.

[Adam Scott]

And Y. That's a question we need now ponder. Which means I couldn't think of anything that starts with a Y. Yeah, I.

[Ben Stiller]

Love the childlike quality of it all. And also what's. What it's intercut with in the episode is anything you know, but that.

[Adam Scott]

And also I love Rickon and I think that Rickon means well and there's a ceiling for Rickon as to self awareness. I think he isn't the fool that you could judge him as. He is a really interesting character. God, Michael's incredible. Just incredible.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. You know, all of these characters on the one hand could seem really kind of silly or childlike, you know, or it could seem like just sort of one note but then there is always something else underneath them that's grounded.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. With that, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We will be back soon to talk about the rest of episode four.

[Ben Stiller]

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[Adam Scott]

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[Patricia Clarkson]

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[Adam Scott]

Okay, we're back. And we are back with a fact check. Ben. It turns out that feel this book was in fact a bestseller when it came out.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, my God. Really?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Wow. Wow. And you know what? We must have gamed the system somehow.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Maybe I bought up all the copies.

[Adam Scott]

Or something and I still have that book, actually. Another fact check.

[Ben Stiller]

Really? Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

I don't think people knew what to make of it really when they read it. They probably thought, oh, maybe this is. I don't know. I think we thought we were being funny, but I don't know if we were.

[Adam Scott]

I think it was funny. I got it. I mean, you guys are both looking into the camera in a similar way to Mark Dyer and Rickon Just like with black turtlenecks, am I right?

[Ben Stiller]

Black turtlenecks, that's right. But that's a whole. We could go into like what we thought was funny back then and ridiculous talk show appearances and things like that.

[Adam Scott]

Did you guys go out and promote it like as the black. Oh, fantastic.

[Ben Stiller]

I think like when that came out, I might have gone on Conan with Janine and we might have just pretended that we were like serious the whole time. Or there was one, I think around that time when we went on Conan and did, like I said, I was doing a stomp, like a revival of a stomp show, you know, which was like the. But it was like with garbage or something and did a whole dance number. It's really. It was so much energy being expended.

[Adam Scott]

That's great. That's great. Another time, I'm sure I watched it and thought it was hilarious. Okay, we're back in MDR and Heli finds the map that Mark had found in the group photo. Finds it in Mark's desk while he's in the kitchen. And she and Dylan are looking at it. And it just sort of causes an immediate problem. But at the same time, Mark has been looking at the sneaking looks at this map. So there is something in him that is curious about this. And he just read the book and so he's been kind of thinking about it too, but he doesn't want them to think that and he's fighting against it himself. And so there's this moment where Heli says the work is bullshit and that offends Mark and he says the work is. What is it?

[Ben Stiller]

Mysterious and important.

[Adam Scott]

The work mysterious.

[Ben Stiller]

And it's very. You say it in a very, very kind of self important way. It's like, hey, hey, hey. The work is mysterious and important. Okay. Don't forget it.

[Adam Scott]

So I'm assuming, or I assumed reading that dialogue that that was an important. That's something we say to each other. That's something that we feel about the work we're doing.

[Ben Stiller]

I think so. I think it's probably in the handbook. It feels to me like that's, you know, it might even be, you know, what is the answer when the question is what are we doing here exactly? Because, you know, no one's really being told what they're actually doing.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. What are we doing with these numbers? What are we doing with all of it?

[Ben Stiller]

The deflection is the work is mysterious and important. And that's what you need to know.

[Adam Scott]

So the result of this fight is Mark takes the map and Puts it into the paper shredder. And in that little cabinet where he got the paper shredder, there is a paper cutter that Heli spots. And she grabs that paper cutter. And in a continuation of this whole thing that's kind of been going throughout the series where we're using sort of office ephemera as weaponry, she grabs a paper cutter, storms into Cobell's office, and threatens to cut off her four fingers if she doesn't get a video camera to make a message for her Audi.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Which is, you know, the only thing that an innie can probably do to, you know, somehow get some leverage is to threaten physical harm to the body that they share with the Audi.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And it's smart. It's smart. And she. She goes right in there and confronts Cobell, and Cobell is, you know, definitely gets it. You can see she's, you know, and, you know, I think this is also, you know, the Cobell in this episode is. She's very much the sort of stern administrator. And also, you know, we get to see a little bit more of how far she'll go and she'll let Heli kind of have her rope a little bit. But ultimately, you know, she's gonna get what she needs to get and she's, you know, she's not gonna get her way.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And just from the ultra specificity of Patricia's work, I get the feeling that usually by this point, people are kind of brought to heel and Heli is pushing it a bit further than anyone has, and it's starting to wear on her patience. But she's gonna cut her fingers off. I mean, what's she gonna do? She's gotta get the video camera and get this done.

[Ben Stiller]

Exactly. And she. She knows that that'll be, you know, what's going to happen, the next step. She's already thinking kind of three steps ahead.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And she gets to record her little video message and. And then she, you know, they all kind of walk her to the elevator with the video message on her little mini disc. And what does she say? I guess it's the part where I should tell you all to go to hell, but you're already there or you're already here. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

What a great line.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's great. It's kind of like. And doesn't she say also like, oh, and I was never sorry.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. She says that to Milchick. I mean, I guess she's saying it.

[Ben Stiller]

To everyone, but yeah, it's like the break room. I don't care. I said it 1072 times, but I wasn't sorry. Doors close. We're in her pov and Aoife did this in a really smart way, where from her pov, she looks down and all of a sudden she's got a different mini disc in her hand. And the doors open and there you.

[Adam Scott]

All are in different clothes. Slightly different clothes.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And in my mind, always kind of looking like the Addams Family or something.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, it's just freaks.

[Ben Stiller]

This group is like, you're back. Here we are.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. So she arrives with this different mini disc and everyone gathers in MDR car to watch the video that the Audi made for her innie. So, shall we take a listen to what Heli's Audi has to say here?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Helly. I watched your video asking that I resign. I also received and responded to your previous request. I assume that would resolve the issue. But now Ms. Cobalt says you threatened to cut off your fingers. I understand that you're unhappy with the life that you've been given, but you know what? Eventually we all have to accept reality. So here it is. I am a person. You are not. I make the decisions. You do not. And if you ever do anything to my fingers, know that I will keep you alive long enough to horribly regret that. Your resignation request is denied. Turn it off.

[Adam Scott]

Wow.

[Ben Stiller]

Hmm.

[Adam Scott]

It's rare to have it sort of distilled down to such frank language. I am a person. You are not. That is what they really think of us down here is. And that is so harsh.

[Ben Stiller]

No, it's the reality. You know, it's sort of like also in the beginning of the episode, when you see what's going on in the break room, this is the episode where you get to really understand how bleak this is for this reality, for these Innies. And, yeah, she is really making it clear that she and probably what is the world outside? How does the culture look at Enies? And this is something we kind of hint at earlier in the season, too, just sort of the debate as to what are the rights of an Enni. You know, how much of a person are they?

[Adam Scott]

And I think for Mark and for everyone there in mdr, they already know this. They already, to a certain extent, assume or know this about how they're viewed in the outside world. And for Mark, I think Heli pushing and pushing and pushing is destructive. And it's frustrating because this is all we're going to get if you keep pushing. The best we can hope for is this. And now you've brought this all out to the surface again. And it's going to depress and discourage everyone in the office. And it's going to take us another week or so to kind of get everyone back into the spirit of Lumen and md. It's just a reminder of something, as a boss you'd rather not have everyone subject to.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah. You want to keep your head in the sand a little more.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

That's Mark at this point. And I like what you did right after that at the end, where you see how you're reacting to it, because you can see that you're feeling that, but you're also feeling. I think you're just again, being affected by the questions she's asking and feeling a little bit of empathy for her, or more than a little empathy, but also kind of just something's not ringing true to you or feeling the same. At least that's what I get from what you're doing there, is that Mark's starting to just feel a little different about all this.

[Adam Scott]

That's right. And again, the Ricken book has. And the map. This is the beginning of the kind of everything cracking here for Mark.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And it was fun, I think, for us when we were shooting that, to see what Audi Heli was like, you know, just to get it, like, for Brit to play around with that.

[Adam Scott]

Super interesting.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And just get a different, you know, it's a different character, really different feeling.

[Adam Scott]

Very condescending. Talking to her innie like she's a child.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah. That's just one of the sort of things about this world and this show is that there's an opportunity to explore. Explore these different, you know, kind of dualities in what is supposedly the same person. It is the same person, but very different. And I just think that's an interesting idea. These are not different characters. I just said it's a different character, but really it's the same character. It's just different aspects to this person's personality.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Different part of them. All right, so let's talk about Petey's funeral. This is super interesting. It's Mark. Audi. Mark is at the funeral. Why do you think he has decided to go to this thing?

[Ben Stiller]

Well, I think Mark is curious because, you know, after what happened with Petey and he saw. He basically saw Petey kind of die in front of him. And, you know, Audi, Mark at this point is, you know, there's this phone that's in his basement that's buzzing and he's starting to get curious and obviously to have somebody come into his life and then die. Mysteriously like that. And also, after everything he was saying to him, I think he's. You know, he is really. It's interesting that the kind of the dual trajectory of Any. And Audi Mark. Yeah, any Mark is starting to get awakened to something. Audi Mark is starting to get awakened to something. And so he's curious and he. And he goes to the funeral.

[Adam Scott]

And I think there's some guilt in there, too, maybe.

[Ben Stiller]

I think so. I mean, just off of that ending, you know, of episode three, when Mark goes back and kind of hides the phone and gets all freaked out and, you know, he didn't really do anything, but he didn't really help him maybe enough. Yeah. And he's trying to figure out what to do, and he meets Petey's daughter there and his ex.

[Adam Scott]

And we see this video that's really effective where Petey and his daughter, played by the great Cassidy Layton, by the way, she's so good, just excellent. And his ex wife, Nina, played by Joanne Kelly, who is also just excellent. But this video that they show at the memorial service of Petey and his daughter playing guitars and singing Enter Sandman, the Metallica song, what made you kind of zero in on that song?

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I think we were looking for a song that we knew would be the soundtrack to Cobell showing up. And by the way, Patricia's just amazing in this sequence. Or Selvig, she shows up to get that chip out of Petey's head. And we thought, what could be a fun, kind of spooky, cool song to have that sequence play out to. And, you know, who doesn't like Enter Sandman? It's one of my favorite songs.

[Adam Scott]

It really works so well.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's great. And, you know, they did a great job of playing it together and singing it and Yul playing on the guitar. And it was fun to, you know, see how that. That sequence came together. And the way Aoife shot it with seeing through that, the hole. The drill hole in his head.

[Adam Scott]

Such a cool shot.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Honestly, this was a moment when we were making the show. I was like, oh, man, I hope. I hope people go along with this, because it feels right to me, but Cobell's gonna drill a hole in a dead man's head at his funeral.

[Adam Scott]

Yep.

[Ben Stiller]

And this is like. Like we're saying something about, you know, who this character is and also the tone of the show. And then when you think about it, big swing. Right. It's a lot. But when you think about it, with the break room and the mean message from helly's, Audi. And just, like, there's a. It's a very dark episode, and. And we committed to it. And I think it really defines Cobell in terms of her commitment to this company and to also just getting things done that she wants to get done. She will do what she needs to do, and she does it on her own, really. She's not really telling anybody about it.

[Adam Scott]

That's right. It turns out that this wasn't asked of her. She went and did this kind of rogue. One other thing that's great about Enter Sandman is that this version of Enter Sandman is like a happy, kind of giggly version with this father and daughter kind of having this great time. And that cut with the gruesomeness of Patricia drilling into Yuhl's head is really, really effective. And I seem to remember Yuhl was there, but there was also a dummy of Yuhl there. Am I right about that or was it just Yule?

[Ben Stiller]

It was Yule. And we had a head and, like, a Yule head. And I have to say, the sound on that scene, there's two sounds. One, the drill sound, which is just so ominous. And then the creaking. Just little detail. The creaking of the opening of the casket.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

I find so creepy.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

And that's just a place where our sound mixers really. And designers really. You know, just those little things that just make it that much more palpable.

[Adam Scott]

Makes a huge difference when that stuff is dialed in.

[Ben Stiller]

And Patricia is so funny also at the casket when she comes up. And you see, she tries to talk to June and says, so he was your. She says, he was my father. And she goes, so, I guess you were close then.

[Adam Scott]

So weird. She's so weird.

[Ben Stiller]

So weird. Ms. Selvig.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, so we are back in Lumen now, and.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, you know, there's that. The scene after that is the scene where Ms. Casey is told by Cobell to have a wellness session with Mark.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

And what I love about that is that she's wanting to test Mark, it seems, in some way, because we see the candle that she got out of his basement in episode three.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

And there's that candle, and the candle's burning in the room, and she asks him to sculpt a little ball of clay. And, you know, in this episode, we didn't talk about this, but Mark has that moment after the funeral where he drives out to the spot where Gemma's car crashed and.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, right.

[Ben Stiller]

You have this incredibly emotional moment, you know, really, the Most emotional moment since the first episode where you're there at the site where, you know, where she dies and then in the room with Miss and you just. Needless to say, Adam, you did an amazing job with that scene. And I think it's also beautifully shot by Jessica and Aoife, for sure. It's so evocative and so simple and so stark. And then you're asked to sculpt this ball of clay by Ms. Casey, and you kind of sculpt it into that tree. Yeah, the shape of that tree, which is, you know, this little. Okay, now we're starting to see the permeation of the Innie and the Audi a little bit.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, it kind of broke through a little bit there.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And the candle she got from the basement, she took it from the box.

[Ben Stiller]

That said Gemma's Crafts. Right?

[Adam Scott]

Gemma's crafts. That's right. So who knows if that had anything to do with that breaking through, but she wanted to see if it would have any effect on him.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And. Yeah, so at this point, we don't quite know what's going on with all of this in terms of what Cobell is up to and what Ms. Casey knows or doesn't know or it's all kind of like, I think, starting to percolate.

[Adam Scott]

And that scene is intercut with Dylan finding Rickon's book in Mark's desk and starting to explore that and read from it the acrostic poem. And then also Heli gathering up a couple of items, an extension cord and a trash can and walking to the elevator and preparing to hang herself in the elevator, which is really horrifying to watch that process.

[Ben Stiller]

Really disturbing. And again, just, you know, the more we talk about this, I just realized how dark this episode is.

[Adam Scott]

It really is.

[Ben Stiller]

And how. How unsettling it is and what it's dealing with. These themes of, you know, just Heli wants out of there enough that she's ready to end it. And, yeah, the way that that sequence was shot by Aoife and Jessica and the way that Erica Friedmarker and Jeff Richman edited it with Aoife, I think is just very elegant in that you intercut her doing all these things with the poem. But then also the last moment is kind of you checking in with Helle and her saying, oh, I'm fine.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And then we cut to the trash can being kicked out. And that's very. I feel very impactful on a lot of levels in terms of what people deal with and what they keep to themselves and those themes that are Much more than even what the show is about in terms of someone who's in that state.

[Adam Scott]

And also, it shows that Heli will not stop. She believes that this place is bullshit and she is being treated inhumanely. We're all being treated inhumanely. And she will not stop.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And she's tried everything. She's tried everything to get out of there. And this is, you know, this is her last resort.

[Adam Scott]

Well, also, in the midst of all this, Irving is wandering the severed floor, sort of just lovesick, wandering the halls, and he comes upon. He goes into OND to maybe try and find Burt, and he opens a door and he comes upon this sort of massive white room filled with people in lab coats working on something. He does not know what, and neither do we.

[Ben Stiller]

I don't think it's taking swear words out of movies.

[Adam Scott]

It could be, though. I mean, that's a pretty good theory.

[Ben Stiller]

All right.

[Adam Scott]

But that is a huge moment, you know.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah. It's the question of what is really going on back there.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, well, that's it for episode four of the Severance Podcast with Adam and best selling author Ben. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions and Great Scott Productions.

[Ben Stiller]

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Ben Bari Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Rhys Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Cruces and Davy Sumner.

[Adam Scott]

Show clips are courtesy of fifth season music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey. Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa West, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff.

[Ben Stiller]

And the team at Red, John Lesher, Carolina Pesakov, Gian Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker and Oliver Agar.

[Adam Scott]

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin and Christy Smith. At Rise Management, we also had additional.

[Ben Stiller]

Production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristin Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, marielexa Kavanaugh and Melissa Slaughter.

[Adam Scott]

I'm Adam Scott.

[Ben Stiller]

I'm Ben Stiller. And next up is episode five, the grim barbarity of optics and design.

[Adam Scott]

And you can, of course stream all episodes of season one on Apple TV.

[Ben Stiller]

Right now and season two premieres on January 17th.

[Adam Scott]

And we're releasing these podcast episodes daily. Until then, yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And now I'm gonna go to sleep. I'm so excited.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Ben Stiller]

By the way, did you ever read the sleep book by Dr. Seuss?

[Adam Scott]

No. Maybe when I was little. Is it that or is it more of a grown up thing?

[Ben Stiller]

No, it's definitely a children's book. But I loved it so much because it was all about how different people were going to sleep. Different creatures.

[Adam Scott]

Interesting.

[Ben Stiller]

I was obsessed with that book. Anyway, that's another thing that I love about sleeping is the sleep book.

[Adam Scott]

I really loved that Maurice Sendak book about the kid who makes the. The cookies. And he's like, in a cookie airplane and all his clothes melt off and he falls into the milk and stuff. I forget what that one was called.

[Ben Stiller]

It was called in the Night Kitchen.

[Adam Scott]

I loved that.

[Ben Stiller]

And Mickey was flying his little cookie airplane into the milk, and then he jumps into the milk and he's naked in the milk. And. And the end. It's like, that's why we have cake in the morning. And the three cooks look like.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

Oliver Hardy. And from Laurel and Hardy.

[Adam Scott]

Yes, they do.

[Ben Stiller]

It's so great. And it's like the. All of the. The food in the cabinet is like the nightscape of. Of a city. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Loved it. Loved it. I just loved that book so much. Anyway, sleep. I'm going to go. I'm going to go to sleep, too. All right. Good night, Ben.

[Ben Stiller]

Good night. Hey, Adam?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah?

[Ben Stiller]

Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

[Adam Scott]

I. I don't know. I think it's.

[Ben Stiller]

It's okay. I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose confluence by Atlassian.

[Ben Stiller]

Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed a space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

[Adam Scott]

So that would equal out, like, if we're playing with, like, let's just say, 100%. 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah, that's the improvement.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

[Adam Scott]

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

So why not keep your team unsevered in Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all set, knowledge free with Confluence. Learn [e-mail] confluence that's a t l a s s I a n com c o n f L U E N C e.