S1E5: The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design (with Jen Tullock)

Summary

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
Episode: Season 1, Episode 5 – "The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design"
Release Date: January 10, 2025
Guests: Jen Tulloch (Plays Devin), and other cast members

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Introduction and Recap

In Season 1, Episode 5 of The Severance Podcast, hosts Ben Stiller and Adam Scott, alongside guest Jen Tulloch who portrays Devin, delve deep into the intricacies of the Severance TV series. This episode, titled "The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design," is penned by Anna Oyang Munch and directed by Aoife McCardle. The discussion commences with a brief personal exchange between Ben and Jen, setting a casual and relatable tone before transitioning into the episode's analysis.

Ben Stiller [01:00]: "Today we're recapping Season One, Episode Five, 'The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design.'"

Behind-the-Scenes Insights

The conversation quickly shifts to behind-the-scenes experiences, particularly the camaraderie among the cast during the show's initial table read in March 2020. Jen shares anecdotes about her interactions with Adam Scott, emphasizing the instant chemistry and the impact of the pandemic-induced shutdown on their relationships.

Jen Tulloch [04:09]: "We met for the first time during the table read in March 2020... it was just like, everyone was doing their best, and then two days later, it was like, go home."

Ben and Adam reflect on how the unexpected shutdown provided them additional time to refine their roles and understand the show's complex dynamics.

Character Development and Relationships

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the evolving relationships between the characters. Jen discusses her portrayal of Devin, Mark’s sister, highlighting the depth and authenticity brought to their on-screen relationship. The trio examines how Mark's interactions with Devin and other colleagues like Helly reveal his internal struggles and gradual awakening to the unsettling realities of Lumen Industries.

Jen Tulloch [08:20]: "There wasn't that scene where we lay out our backstory explicitly... We had the room to develop this relationship without expository beats."

Adam and Ben commend Jen's ability to convey vulnerability and strength simultaneously, enhancing the narrative’s emotional weight.

Scene Analysis: Helly's Suicide Attempt

The hosts dissect the harrowing scene where Helly attempts to hang herself in the elevator. Adam recounts watching the episode with Britt Lower (Helly), describing the intense emotions elicited by witnessing such a pivotal moment.

Adam Scott [14:15]: "I watched it on Britt's house with friends... It was hard to watch, but in a beautiful way."

They discuss the thematic significance of this scene, exploring how it serves as a turning point for Mark, pushing him further into questioning Lumen’s true intentions and his role within the company.

Exploring Lumen's Manipulation Tactics

Ben and Jen delve into Lumen’s strategic manipulation of employees, particularly through misinformation and psychological tactics. They analyze the power dynamics between upper management figures like Cobell and Milchick, highlighting how these characters exert control and foster division to maintain authority.

Ben Stiller [53:22]: "It's dividing and conquering, keeping people separated on matters that don't truly affect their lives."

The discussion extends to the symbolic use of art within the series, such as the unsettling paintings that Irving encounters, which serve as metaphors for the company's deceptive practices.

Production Details and Creative Choices

Listeners are treated to insights into the show's production elements, including lighting, set design, and special effects. For instance, Jen describes her experience filming scenes involving black goo dripping from her contact lenses, a visual device that adds to the show's eerie atmosphere.

Jen Tulloch [47:39]: "We injected the goo into my tear duct... It was super comfy. I loved it."

Adam and Ben also discuss the show's unique incorporation of unexpected elements, like baby goats, and the creative brainstorming that led to these quirky additions.

Jen Tulloch [57:04]: "Babies goats are eating shoelaces and they're so cute and gentle."

Audience Engagement and Theories

The hosts touch upon fan theories circulating on platforms like Reddit, particularly concerning the enigmatic presence of goats in the series. Jen shares some popular and imaginative theories, adding a layer of community engagement and speculation about the show's deeper meanings.

Ben Stiller [59:54]: "Here's a quote: 'They’re testing cloning technologies.'"

These discussions not only highlight the show's intricate storytelling but also underscore the active and passionate fan base it has cultivated.

Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

Towards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts to future seasons, with the guests expressing excitement and anticipation. Ben, Adam, and Jen reflect on the growth of their characters and the unfolding narrative, setting the stage for Season 2.

Adam Scott [68:04]: "Season two is marvelous, and I'm so excited."

They also humorously suggest potential high-profile guests for future podcast episodes, hinting at the expanding scope and ambition of their companion series.

Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several memorable quotes encapsulate the discussion's essence:

• Ben Stiller [10:19]: "As an actor, creating the inner life of a character who's just met their sibling is challenging, but you guys did that very well."

• Jen Tulloch [24:23]: "Set knowledge free with Confluence."

• Adam Scott [46:26]: "Ms. Kayce really haunts me in my dreams."

Conclusion

Episode 5 of The Severance Podcast offers an engaging and comprehensive breakdown of "The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design." Through candid conversations, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and thoughtful analyses, Ben Stiller, Adam Scott, and Jen Tulloch provide listeners with a deeper appreciation of the series' complexity and emotional depth. Whether you're a seasoned fan or new to the Severance universe, this episode serves as a valuable guide to understanding the show's nuanced storytelling and character development.

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If you enjoyed this summary, be sure to tune into The Severance Podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your preferred podcast platform for more in-depth discussions and exclusive insights from the creators, cast, and crew.

Transcript

[Ben Stiller]

This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence.

[Adam Scott]

What is Dax, Are you tracking all.

[Ben Stiller]

Our cars on Carvana Value Tracker on all our devices?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes, Kristen, Yes, I am.

[Ben Stiller]

While I've been looking for my phone for in Dax's domain, we see all.

[Jen Tulloch]

So we always know what our cars are worth.

[Ben Stiller]

All of them?

[Jen Tulloch]

All of them.

[Adam Scott]

Value surge trucks up 3.9%.

[Ben Stiller]

That's a great offer. I know. Sell. Sell. Track your car's value with Carvana Value Tracker today. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

[Jen Tulloch]

I'm Adam Scott and this is the.

[Ben Stiller]

Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam where we break down every episode of Severance.

[Jen Tulloch]

Today we're recapping Season one, Episode five, the Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design. Written by Anna Oyang Munch and directed by Aoife McCardle. Ben, how have you been?

[Ben Stiller]

I've been pretty good.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's been at least, I don't know, 11 hours since we've seen each other.

[Ben Stiller]

In that time, the Knicks lost a game they should have won last night.

[Jen Tulloch]

I'm so sorry. Now, what does that mean, they lost a game that they should have won?

[Ben Stiller]

It means they lost a game they should have won.

[Jen Tulloch]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[Ben Stiller]

They should have beaten. It was Utah and they should have beaten Utah and they're a better team. And it didn't affect my mood or anything though, last night.

[Jen Tulloch]

Oh, good, good. I didn't notice. No. You know what? I've never seen the fate of the Knicks affect you. Your mood at all. Or maybe I just don't know.

[Ben Stiller]

Did you ever see me watching a Knicks game on set ever?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes, I did, actually. All right, okay.

[Ben Stiller]

We'll edit that out, though.

[Jen Tulloch]

Scratch that. Did I ever tell you that as a 16, 17 year old, I was really into Spike Lee and so I grew a goatee and wore a Knicks cap everywhere for a while?

[Ben Stiller]

No, you did.

[Jen Tulloch]

Not having, as a teenager, followed basketball at all. Nor did I once I started wearing the cap.

[Ben Stiller]

But wait a minute. The goatee was to be like Spike Lee?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

And the cap was to be like Spike Lee with the Knicks, and. Yeah, I got it. How did that work out?

[Jen Tulloch]

Well, not great. It was probably. I'm sure it's offensive in one way or the other, but mostly it's. You know, actually there is a photo of me with the cast of Crimes of the Heart, the play that I Was directing and I was sure to wear the Knicks cap, have the goatee and horn rimmed glasses in the photo. We can cut all this out as well.

[Ben Stiller]

I like the image of Adam Scott trying to be Spike Lee.

[Jen Tulloch]

Trying to be Spike Lee. Okay, well, you know, today we are lucky enough to be joined by the great Jen Tulloch, who plays Devin on the show, my character's sister. So, Jen Tulloch, welcome to the pod.

[Adam Scott]

Hey, guys, I'm sorry I'm late. I was just coming straight from a Utah celebration party and let me tell you, the spirits were high. It was just great to be in a room where with winners. You know what I mean?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Which Utah team was that?

[Adam Scott]

The ball team?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes. Ball sports.

[Adam Scott]

Ball sports team.

[Ben Stiller]

All right. The Utah ball sports team. Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's a good team.

[Ben Stiller]

Jen, you're awesome. It's great to see you.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, you're awesome. It's great to see you guys too. I've missed you.

[Jen Tulloch]

What about me? I'm. Am I.

[Ben Stiller]

She said you guys.

[Jen Tulloch]

Oh, she got.

[Adam Scott]

No, I said. Yeah, I was. To Ben.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, thank. Okay, so it was to Ben.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Just in the spirit of transparency, I don't wanna. I don't wanna set you up for disappointment here.

[Jen Tulloch]

Great to see you, Jen. You're terrific.

[Ben Stiller]

Did you guys know each other at all before we started doing the show?

[Adam Scott]

No.

[Jen Tulloch]

No.

[Ben Stiller]

That's so crazy.

[Jen Tulloch]

We met though, for the first time when we were coming out for the table read in March of 2020.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. What a wonderful time that was. We met in the very strange sort of holding area that they take you to on a fancy plane. Which isn't awkward at all if you've never spoken to someone. Luckily, Adam is lovely and I think there was like politics up on the screen. And I remember very clearly immediately firing my mouth off because I was nervous and being like, I don't know what this guy thinks. Halfway through, immediately just telling you all of the ins and outs of my personal political beliefs.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right, right.

[Ben Stiller]

As I recall, it was just like a week or something before everything got locked down, wasn't it? Like we were all together as if we were gonna make the show and then a few days later, everything was shut down. That was crazy. Cause we all saw each other and then we didn't see each other for a long, long time.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I have such a Pavlovian response now to the sound of the hand pumps of the hand sanitizer at the table read. Cause we didn't know. We were just. Everyone was doing their best and it was Sort of like, okay, well, elbow bump, and everyone will sort of manically use this hand sanitizer. And then two days later, it was like, go home.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. Everything was shut down.

[Ben Stiller]

It was wild. I think that shutdown, though, really kind of ended up helping us in the show in terms of having time to figure out stuff that we were still trying to figure out as we were rolling into production.

[Adam Scott]

That's good to hear. It was such a wild time to get to know everybody as well. I told Adam this before, but we have a hug in one of our earlier scenes. At least one of the earlier scenes that we shot. And we shot it, and then when we cut, I, like, stepped away because I teared up because I realized I hadn't hugged anyone. Like, it was. It was the first physical contact I had had in a very long time and was like, oh, great, this girl. But it was. It was very sweet.

[Jen Tulloch]

No. Yeah. And I kind of feel like it was not knowing each other particularly well, but this kind of Mark and Devin relationship kind of clicked in really, really fast.

[Adam Scott]

It did.

[Ben Stiller]

It really. Yeah. You guys were just on the same wavelength right away.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And I think that was really. I remember when you guys read together, there was so much chemistry there, and I didn't really know all about your background, Jen, but you're a writer and director, and, you know, that's an amazing thing when you hire an actor who also is a creator in that way.

[Adam Scott]

Well, thanks. I mean, I couldn't be in a cooler group of people. And also, I think, to Adam's credit, that dynamic felt easy to develop quickly because he was so kind and warm and available. The first thing I shot, and you guys have been working for a couple months. I think when I came in was the first time we see each other in the show, which was opening the door. Devin's knocking on the door. Yeah. And I remember thinking how emblematic it was because you just. Between every take, I was totally the new kid, and you were very warm and asking me about my life. And you were also, I think, had just been very sick. And I thought it was especially nice that you were in sort of the throes of a fever and still wanting to chat.

[Ben Stiller]

That's a really challenging thing for actors to have to do, is to create a whole inner life and past history, someone who's playing your sibling when you've just met them.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And you guys did that very well. And I think it's just, you know, because you guys were so attuned and so talented and so understanding. Of what that is to jump in. It's almost like, as, I think, you know, challenging as a love scene or something like that, too, because, you know, you're creating something that the audience really has to buy and believe. And so much of Devin and Mark's relationship is unspoken and is in the history and the language you have together.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And I think that a lot of that, too. I don't know about you, Jen, but the writing was such that there wasn't that scene where it's like, well, you know, since we're sister and brother and our parents died when we were three, or there's expository scenes that we kind of all roll our eyes at. That for an audience, I think is alienating, and you don't actually feel like you're watching siblings in here. We had the room to develop this relationship, and we didn't have the responsibility of hitting all those expository beats so we could fill it with behavior. And I think that was more beneficial to us, but also to the show and also being given that room by our directors.

[Adam Scott]

Absolutely. And I think Dan Erickson mentioned early on that he had, in some ways, based Evan on his own sister, in his own relationship with his sister. So I feel like you can feel that it isn't forced, which is great.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I have a sister, and I realize that dialogue, so much of it is when you're talking to a sibling is just sort of the love and the history and all that is just. You just take that for granted. So a lot of the back and forth is just like quibbling about things or joking with each other about things or getting annoyed with each other about things. But there's such a basis of trust and love because you're siblings, that that's what you're talking about. Dan didn't worry about putting all that in the dialogue that was already there. And so I felt like it was Dan and you two kind of all came together to really were just in sync metaphysically or something before you met.

[Adam Scott]

And you and Aoife really helped us. You gave us the space to find that. And it didn't feel rigid in any way. Like we had mile markers to meet. And I think once we roasted each other once off camera, it was like, oh, yeah, we're good. We're cruisin' Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

I also remember thinking, when I learned about what you do, Jen, just thinking, oh, she's really smart and talented, and I hope she thinks this is good. For some reason, I had that with you and Zach Cherry, too. Like this sort of insecurity, of like, wow, I hope they like the show when they see it, sir.

[Adam Scott]

I was feeling the exact same thing the entire time. I was like, just we were both.

[Ben Stiller]

On our best behavior.

[Adam Scott]

Oh my God.

[Ben Stiller]

Totally impressed.

[Adam Scott]

The other.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, that's cool. And you know, another thing with someone like Jen is that you can just completely relax. Just like all the actors on our show were really lucky, but Jen is there to work and I just know I can completely relax because I know she is prepared and has thought about the thing from all the different angles. She just has that mind. And so you can just sort of let go and jump in the scene together and not think about all of the kind of exterior things. We can just kind of connect and go. And it's a really. For another actor at least, it's really something. A really relaxing sort of great thing.

[Adam Scott]

Likewise, my friend. Totally. I feel very lucky.

[Jen Tulloch]

Should we take a quick break here and then when we come back we'll jump into episode five?

[Adam Scott]

Sounds good.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Jen Tulloch]

At Lumen, things are not always what they seem. Mark, Dylan, Helly and Irving in MDR make a great team. But what else lies beyond the four white walls of their department? There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed.

[Ben Stiller]

There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy.

[Jen Tulloch]

I agree. There are more Q's than A's in this place.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jen Tulloch]

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[Ben Stiller]

I feel like something like Confluence could really help those severed workers. You know, they're kind of always organizing and trying to come up with group ideas and things that need organization and back and forth and a lot of creative interaction in the workspace.

[Jen Tulloch]

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[Ben Stiller]

I think any boost in productivity, especially with a group like the Severed Group, imagine how many more files they could complete if they had Confluence.

[Jen Tulloch]

Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian.com confluence that's a T L A-S-S I-a n.com C-O-N-Flash u-n c E I'm Ana Garcia with True Crime News, the podcast Every crime tells a story.

[Adam Scott]

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[Jen Tulloch]

Crimes, investigating high profile and under the radar cases.

[Adam Scott]

Every week we dive beyond the headlines, exploring the effects of violent crimes on victims and search for justice. We hope you join us as your weekly source for true crime news. Listen to and follow True Crime the podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jen Tulloch]

So episode five does not ease us in gently. It starts right where we left off. In episode four, Helia's just attempted to hang herself in the elevator.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

Which is really striking and horrifying to see.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I actually watched this episode for the first time with Brit Lauer, who plays Ellie. I watched it at her house with. With a couple of friends and was sitting next to her on the couch watching that very intense scene. So she was quiet and I was freaking out internally because I can't imagine what it's like to watch herself do that. And I think I was just sort of like dunking my sweaty palms into my popcorn bucket. It was hard to watch. But in a beautiful way, I think it's interesting that we see Mark's Audi and for lack of a better term, a depressive episode. I mean, he's having a depressed experience. So to see this happen as an act of defiance, I felt was an interesting counter to watching someone who is in despair, where we might associate that kind of thing with the latter. And so it was. I don't want to say the act was cool, but how it was contextualized was really cool. And it's one of my favorite episodes, the stuff around those heli scenes.

[Ben Stiller]

But is that interesting as an actor? Cause I'm not great at watching myself. That's one of the things I really like about severance is that I'm not in it. I get to enjoy the process of making it without having to look at myself.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

But you guys, you can appreciate it, right? You can. You can appreciate what you do.

[Adam Scott]

I don't love watching myself. I think I sort of dissociate when I am on the screen. But luckily there's a lot that I'm not in that I was able to just enjoy as a fan because I didn't know much about the any goings on. So I was legitimately excited to see what happened moment to moment. And then when I happened to wobble in, I would just sort of look at the floor.

[Jen Tulloch]

Well, this is an episode where I hope you watched every single scene you're in. Cause you're incredible. Thanks, as always. So, okay, so Mark's coming out of a wellness session and he discovers heli. And it's horrifying for him. Obviously, Graner shoves him in the elevator and sends him home. So then we just sort of jump to Mark coming right back to work and is, you know, kind of wakes up horrified, walks out of the elevator, and there is Cobell and Milchick waiting for him. They tell him Helly's recovering in the hospital. Interestingly, the first thing Mark says to them is, is she alive? They tell him that she is in the hospital and her Audi has no intention of resigning. She'll be back in a few days.

[Ben Stiller]

And also, I think Michael Kunstein is really great in that scene where just sort of like, there's this moment of, like, something's gone horribly wrong and he's like, get in the elevator, Mark. Get in the elevator. It's just sort of like. It's so messy and chaotic and just, you know, he's like, in this sort of like, you know, mode of Just like, you know, like, triage mode of. It's like when things get messy in that world, it's not pretty.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes, Michael is incredible. Yeah, he really is. And, yeah, because you get the feeling that he saw it on the video monitor and hopefully he'll get there before any of the Innies discover this, and then it's clean and they don't have to deal. But the moment he sees Mark in there, he knows that this is now a mess they'll have to contain.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And the first thing he has to do is just turn your innie off so he can deal with the problem.

[Adam Scott]

I'm always blown away by, well, all of our actors generally, but the ones in positions of power within lumen that have to exact these moments with such precision and calculated control. It's such a different experience than Michael Turnis and I, for example, have, which we're able to be soulful and warm and in the moment. And I feel like the skill and intellect required to pull off these moments blows my mind. I also love that character so much.

[Ben Stiller]

You're right. There's a quality of stillness that both Patricia and Tramiel are able to have where they just can do nothing but hold the sort of tension. And, yeah, I agree. It's really wonderful how they do that.

[Jen Tulloch]

Now, this moment where Cobell and Milchick tell Mark that Helly will be coming back, that her Audi has no intention of resigning is the beginning of a bit of a Turning point for Mark. He's been on board up till now with disciplining Heli and keeping her down there. But I think there's just something kind of fundamental here that he, deep inside, does not agree with and is a bit horrified by, even if he's not kind of consciously aware of it. And this is kind of the beginning of a bit of a. Do you think that.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, definitely. And it's coinciding with reading the. You. You are. Yes, because I think that's starting to open up his mind. Yes. And that sequence of Mark sort of devouring the book and the, you know, you're just starting to see all these ideas that are percolating inside of him and, you know, the different quotations and the different thoughts that are. That we see running across the screen, which are both profound and ridiculous.

[Jen Tulloch]

Ridiculous. I mean, and Chernis reading them is so much fun to listen to.

[Adam Scott]

Delicious.

[Jen Tulloch]

Do you know some.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, there's. Bullies are nothing but bull and lies.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right. But for Mark, for this innie, these are profound and just mind blowing.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And it was interesting when we were putting that episode together in editing was that sequence. It was both that the sequence of reading the book and seeing all the words was both. I was wondering how the audience was going to take it, because for me, it was both funny and kind of the absurdity of his philosophy. But there's also a grain of truth in it that you have to buy. And so again, in the bubble of making the show when nobody had seen the show or knew what the show was, that was one of the things at night sometimes I would think about is like, oh, will the audience buy this as real or will it seem too silly?

[Jen Tulloch]

Right.

[Adam Scott]

I feel like that needle was threaded so gracefully because, for one thing, I think the assumption generally would be that Mark, Zenni and Audi are the same person with different memories. But what Adam does so beautifully and was in the writing and certainly in the direction is that you watch the childlike quality of Mark Seni and his ability to experience wonder and his ability to experience, like, fandom. I think Outie Mark is maybe a little too bitter and downtrodden, but watching any Mark feel inspired by Rickon's words. Well, I find it very cute, if you want to know the truth.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. He's beginning to have this sort of. This idolatrous. Is that the right word? Yeah. Relationship with Rickon and his Audi just thinks he's a fool, obviously. Just completely dismisses him.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Which is one of the simple core ideas of the season, just that juxtaposition of Iny Marc's relationship with Rickon and Outy Mark. And that to me was always that simplicity of what Dan came up with was what I really felt was just such a smart thing because it's just a natural sort of. Okay. If these two. At some point, Any Mark at Rickon and Outy Mark and Rickon are gonna. At some point, this relationship is gonna build to something where it's fun to think about that. And yeah, I agree. Adam, your perception of these things and the. Any Mark, you're playing it so earnestly and real. That to me is what makes work. And, you know, that's also, I think, like, the weirdness of the tone of the show is that you can start the show with this, you know, very graphic suicide attempt. And then, you know, like halfway into the show, we're, you know, doing that.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. Inny and Audi Mark seem to kind of. Their interests are on a bit of a collision course here, it seems. Okay, so now it's time to go out to the birthing retreat. And it's baby time. Baby o'clock for Jen and Michael. Mark gets a bunch of panicked voicemails from Rickon when he gets off work. Devin is in labor out at the birthing retreat.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, birthing cabins.

[Adam Scott]

Birthing cabins.

[Ben Stiller]

Not a concept that I really was familiar with before Dan wrote it up.

[Jen Tulloch]

Me neither. And it's kind of briefly mentioned in the previous episode.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's not a. Then when you look it up, you go, oh, people for natural childbirth.

[Adam Scott]

I feel like every white girl yoga teacher in LA watched that episode and was like, taking notes. They were like, this is a good idea. I can make a mean buck.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I like that little moment where you're kind of looking on the Internet at the cabins with you and Devon. You're kind of pretty snarky about it.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, it seems like Devon feels like it's a little silly too. Maybe this is more of a Rickon thing. Going to the birthing retreat.

[Ben Stiller]

That's, by the way, something I just wanted to mention from episode four that I didn't get to is when you're talking to Devin on the phone and you're finished with a phone call and you go, okie, bae. It's one of my favorite line readings.

[Jen Tulloch]

I do not read.

[Ben Stiller]

It's literally like Ookie Bay. But it's like, you know, your relation, like you're talking to your sister or whatever with your friend voice. It's one of my favorites.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's funny. So Mark goes up to Devon and Rickon's birthing cabin, runs into Alexa, who he had a disastrous date with, who is Devon and Rickon's doula. And they have an awkward interaction. Nikki James, who is just incredible.

[Adam Scott]

She's so good.

[Jen Tulloch]

We should also note that that's Nora Dale doing an excellent job as Gabby.

[Ben Stiller]

I love the tension there between the two of you. And maybe in another it would be like, oh, you're gonna rekindle your romance in that scene. But it's kind of just. Mark is kind of just still unable to really give anything, even though he's trying to apologize, but it's kind of half hearted. And it just felt like a very real moment.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. Not particularly good at, you know, sewing up moments like that.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And that's also, you know, for the audience, being on Audi Mark's side again, I feel like you really made sure not to ever try to get the audience to like Audie Mark.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

Which I think ends up making it feel more real.

[Adam Scott]

Totally. And I think that's why we do like Audi Mark, because it's just so honest.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Because you know what's inside of you.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

But in reality, you know, Mark can't really put himself out like that at this point. He's not there yet.

[Jen Tulloch]

No, no.

[Adam Scott]

Which Devin clearly doesn't pick up on because through contractions is still trying to play yenta. She's like, still trying to land the plane for him.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right. That's right. Like, she'll still. She would totally go out with you again.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. You should do it. You should try.

[Jen Tulloch]

Which after that last date, I can't imagine why she would. So then Mark goes into the birthing cabin where Rickon is sobbing over Devin's belly.

[Ben Stiller]

He's pleading that he doesn't want to be like his father. Please don't let me be my father. Into her belly and she's sort of.

[Jen Tulloch]

Comforting him, tolerating him. I mean, good Lord, the amount of.

[Adam Scott]

Improvised things that flew out of Chernis mouth while we were shooting that one little section was a gift. He's so great. Yeah, it was. I think. Yeah. I think Devin's sick of him, but I think she loves him so much in an almost fraternal way that she forgives all of his frivolities because she also believes him. I think she's chosen to believe him.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And that's a choice that she made many years ago for her own comfort and stability. And she's like, yep, this is my person. I'm Gonna say yes.

[Jen Tulloch]

And do you feel like with this relationship with Devon and Rickon, he's always been this version of himself and the relationship has been this version of the relationship, or are we catching them at a particular moment?

[Adam Scott]

I think we're catching them at a particular moment. We all talked a lot about what the friendship looked like, you know, between Mark and Rickon and Devon and Gemma, and how different a dynamic that might have been before everything went wrong. And I think before that, Rickon was probably less rigid. I think he was less interested in people's opinion of him. I think he was always interested in people's opinion of him. But I think it was a warmer dynamic that had greater ease between the four of us. And I feel like any friend group, or in this case, family and friend group, when a member steps away or dies, it affects the entire thing. It's a Tetris game. And so I think Gemma's absence has affected the meet really differently. And in Rickon's case, he has grown more and more insecure. He's, you know, he's had to confront the instability and the fact that the people around him, there's no guarantee they will always be there. And so I think Mark and Devin have had their own approaches. Mark's is a very tangible one. He's been severed. And I think Devin's just trying to hold both of them together.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. It seems like the vacuum left by Gemma's absence and now Mark's sort of half absence by giving up half of his life to this place has been filled. You know, Rick and Mark theoretically were pretty close at one point and were, you know, kind of understood each other on a few levels. And now it seems that, you know, Rickon's kind of bought into his own this, like, Persona thing. And it's just all sort of askew when we find them.

[Adam Scott]

I think when the siblings are really close, when their partners enter the picture, there is a much kinder initiation process, because there typically is a moment where the sibling who's not with the new partner says, you know what? My brother says yes. My sister says yes. So good for me. I am going to be friends with this person. And I think there was probably an element of that too.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I think it's really interesting that it's a complicated dynamic, what you're just talking about, you know, siblings, grown siblings with partners, how the partners get along with each other, all of that. And relationships change over the years and dynamics change.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. So Rickon has these birthing practices that he's getting Everyone to participate in. One of which is he asks Mark to share a secret which will create a soul void to speed up labor. No one seems to know exactly what that means.

[Ben Stiller]

I know what that means.

[Jen Tulloch]

Well, of course you know what it means.

[Ben Stiller]

Just because I have two children, you created a soul void on the second one. But what is interesting when you think about that is in the writing, if you had sort of been told, this is how we're going to set up the idea of Mark telling Devin the secret about what he's thinking about going on at Lumen that Petey told him we're going to set it up by Rickon saying someone should tell a secret so that they can create a soul void and release themselves of that guilt or whatever it is, so that later Mark can be asked by Devon to tell a secret.

[Jen Tulloch]

Totally. It's a great way to kind of sneak it in there. And also for us to get the information that Rickon is aware that the book has not been commented upon by Audi Mark and that Audi Mark isn't even aware that there was a book.

[Ben Stiller]

So, yeah, it's probably. He might have even made it up just so that he could say that to Mark to find out why he hadn't gotten the book.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, he's clearly fishing for a compliment or an acknowledgement. Like he created the soul void thing just to make it so interesting. Yeah, that's great. And it's interesting because there's this moment where Mark and Rickon are hanging kelp in the birthing room and Mark's asking him, what does this? Why are we doing this? And Rickon's just kind of like, do you really want me to explain it? Like you think everything I say is bullshit. Anyway, they have this honest moment and Mark just kind of leaves.

[Ben Stiller]

I really would like him to explain it, though. It leaves you wanting more there.

[Jen Tulloch]

So Devin goes on a bit of a walk here, looking for a cup of coffee and kind of discovers this big cabin, this kind of larger cabin. Do we want to listen to the clip of her interaction with a woman she finds in there?

[Ben Stiller]

Yes, she really wants coffee.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Hi. I'm so sorry, I'm another pregnant lady. I'm from over there. I just came out on a coffee run and I got distracted by your beautiful coffee. And I was wondering if there's any chance you could hook me up.

[Jen Tulloch]

Uh, okay.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

[Jen Tulloch]

Hi.

[Adam Scott]

Thank you so much. Squeeze her. Oh, I'm Devin. Gabby. Thank you for the narcotics. My husband is driving me fucking crazy. My brother's Depressing me. Is it your first? Yeah, yours. May 3rd.

[Ben Stiller]

I'm naming him William.

[Adam Scott]

Three kiddos. I'm so fucking scared of ruining one child. How do you handle it? Lot of help, I guess. Yeah. Holy shit. By the way, about this cabin. So nice. Hey, Rich.

[Jen Tulloch]

I love the way you play this, Jen. So good.

[Ben Stiller]

That dialogue on the page. When you see that dialogue on the page, Jen, and you're going to work and you're like, okay, I have to get coffee. And I was distracted by your beautiful coffee. Was that dialogue on the page, beautiful coffee, or did you say that? Did you make that up?

[Adam Scott]

I don't remember, it seems. I think I might have added beautiful. Okay.

[Ben Stiller]

But that on the page, to me, if you saw that on the page. And Dan's, you know, creates these situations.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

It's not like a typical situation. No, I'm not saying it's like the most like, you're playing a scene where, like, you know, some awful thing has happened. You have to. But to make something like that work or to make that real, that's not the easiest thing to do. And I know it's a simple thing. And I do find for you as an actress, and this is a compliment, but I find, like, it's almost impossible for you to say something that doesn't feel real when it comes out of your mouth.

[Adam Scott]

Well, thanks.

[Ben Stiller]

Okay. Yes.

[Adam Scott]

Thank you.

[Ben Stiller]

No, no. But I'm curious in your process, like, how you process the words and is there something. How do you do it?

[Adam Scott]

I don't know that I do process the words. I think it's for Devin, anyway. She wears it so obviously on her sleeve and is almost childlike in that way. Like, clearly she's intelligent, but she is a bit bombastic and bro y. And that once I decided that that was the lane, that made it easy because the writing is so good anyway, that I think she means everything she says, even when she's being sarcastic with Mark. It's done from such a sweet place that I do remember shooting these berthing cabin scenes and thinking, you know, when people are in physical pain, they become more childlike. And what does it look like? I think we have so many misconceptions about labor. I myself have never experienced it, but many people I'm close to, and I actually asked a bunch of my friends before we started shooting that had given birth, I was like, you're not really making that sound, are you? Like, what are you? Are you being funny? Are you? And they had all given me interesting backstory. So I do think that Devin kind of defaulting to this goofiness a little bit is also a coping mechanism because she's in pain, she wants the coffee because she's in physical discomfort. And I think that she also knows that she can connect with people from a place of vulnerability. Maybe that's come into clearer focus in contrast to her husband. Because for Rickon, that is nearly impossible, and that's probably why they work so well. But I think it was just, you know, there's a need. She needs the coffee. That's the bottom line. And even though, you know, like you said, the container is so dramatic and the context is so drama, and I knew there was gonna be this gorgeous score underneath. It's like, well, she still just wants her coffee, so. Yeah, Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

I just. There's so much important information in this scene, and it's killing, like, six birds with one stone, because you're playing it so well. And we're learning so much about Devin here, how she behaves in a situation like this, how she sort of thinks about money. And it's also pushing class into the show a bit, which is super interesting. But it's all within the. It's only chara. It's only being pushed by character here. But there's all this interesting information. It's just. There's a heavy load on you as an actor, and you're just getting it all out there in such a fascinating way that you don't even notice all the other stuff that's kind of being loaded into the show right here. It's just like the way you ask her if she's. You just learned so much about Devin in that moment.

[Adam Scott]

Yes, there was. There is a toddler in my life, and I had been. One of my best friends. It's her son. And I had been spending a lot of time with him leading up to shooting, and that was him. That was because I was thinking about how adults, however intelligent, can resort to childlike behavior when. And I was like, I don't. I think Devin's too tired to try to frame that as, like, a diplomatic question. She's just like, I got a question. And that's how kids are. And I love. I think about kids so often with any character that's at all vulnerable or messy or not intentionally put together. It's like, that's just what it is. It's just a little kid inside of us that's wanting to get information. And I do think Devin, though deeply smart, is kind of kid, like, in that way.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's so interesting.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it's great.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's a great moment. I love it. Thanks. So Devin eventually heads back to the cabin. Rickon's asleep. So Mark and Devin have this moment where they're just chit chatting. She's telling him that Alexa might give him another shot. And then Devin starts getting another contraction, and they, you know, face each other and kind of make a joke about Rickon's earlier theory that we need to tell secrets when the baby's born or whatever. And so ends up with Mark almost telling Devin about Petey.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

Gets real close.

[Ben Stiller]

Then that contraction hits.

[Jen Tulloch]

Then a contraction hits. Saved by the bell.

[Adam Scott]

Adam actually was very helpful. Cause I was asking you about your wife Naomi's experience with labor, and you were very kind telling me that I wasn't insane making those weird noises.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

After we'd cut, I was like, is that. Is it weird? Am I making weird noises? Is it too cartoony? And you were very helpful.

[Jen Tulloch]

No, it feels so real. It's really.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I mean, it's intense. From every birth that I've been around, it's pretty intense every birth that I've been around. Well, the two of my children, yes.

[Adam Scott]

But, yes, the almost getting the information, I also think is so important, both because it's telling of their relationship and also because it was fun to feel that type of suspense with Devin. Cause until that point, we're sort of only existing outside of the danger of women, and we're really only in sort of familial environments, even if you are in pain. And so it really. It was fun to get to dip my toe in that for a second.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And it shows that Mark, that Audi. Mark doesn't have anyone else, and he wants to talk about this with someone because there are concerns. This whole thing happened with Petey. He watched someone drop dead in front of him and was keeping him in his. Like, he hasn't told anyone about this. So he's, you know, this is his person to talk to about this.

[Ben Stiller]

And this is episode five. And Mark is starting, you know, he's starting to believe that what Petey was talking about is real.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And, you know, it's taken a little while, but we see that settling in. And the reality of, you know, of the fact that there's something going on that he is feeling this need to have to figure out.

[Jen Tulloch]

And I remember really loving that about the show and the pace of the show, because when some stuff like this is happening, you know, you could see that in a different situation on a different show. You know, episode one. He believes Petey immediately and goes on this quest to fight for justice. You know, it takes away like he doesn't. It seems crazy. So it's going to take a while to really form it and believe it. You need to gather evidence and really internalize it, you know.

[Ben Stiller]

And I feel like the scene after this where Devin is giving birth off camera and you're sitting on the dock is sort of. It sort of reinforces that. Because the whole scene, we're just hearing the childbirth. And I'm curious how that was for you. Cause you had to go to an ADR stage.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, right. And do the sounds. Well, it was great. Cause it was the first time I'd seen what you'd shot of Adam when he's on the. Is he on a pier?

[Ben Stiller]

He's sitting on this little dock like a dockyard.

[Adam Scott]

And I remember I got distracted because it was such a beautiful moment. And I feel like it was such a bittersweet tableau of Audi Mark's loneliness. Like this major life event that represents rebirth and new life is happening behind him. And yet he's here in this moment of solitude that is very clearly pained. And I remember thinking how poetic and beautiful that was that you've got this huge life event happening for Devin. But Mark is so mired in all of the bullshit of Lumen that we just sort of see him stuck there. But yes, doing the pregnancy sounds, the labor sounds rather in the ADR studio was a fun one.

[Ben Stiller]

Was Michael Chernis with you?

[Adam Scott]

No, I think we did it separately, which was tough. Cause I don't like really to do anything without Michael Chernis. Taxes, actually exercise, classes. I need him there. So it was.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's how we all feel, right? All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

[Ben Stiller]

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[Jen Tulloch]

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[Adam Scott]

So weird she haunts me in my dreams. Ms. Kayce.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

Deechen Lockman. The best.

[Adam Scott]

Everything about her. She's so good.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And she's kind of like. You feel like she's sort of like. She knows she has to be there, but inside you feel something's going on with her. She's not maybe quite sure why she's there, but she's doing her job. And Irving is getting sleepy again.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And he has another dream. I love how Aoife McCardle did this. This black goo is coming through the light panels in the ceiling and starts to drip out. And I know she was very adamant about making sure we had real goo. So there's like this weird black, goopy, oily. I don't even know what it was, but the way she integrated that with the visual effects, it's pretty weird and kind of beautiful, too.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's really cool. And I remember I had to. For me, leaning back into his dream, I put in this black contact lens, and then they dribbled goo coming out of my eye as well.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. Yeah. How did that feel?

[Jen Tulloch]

It was super comfy. I loved it.

[Adam Scott]

It was nice. How did they trigger that? Like, how did. Where From Whence was the goo coming?

[Jen Tulloch]

We injected the goo into my tear duct, and then I was able to. I don't remember. I don't remember how we did that.

[Ben Stiller]

I think there was, like, a black contact lens of some type.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes, it was a.

[Ben Stiller]

And then we just dripped some of the black goo. And it might have been enhanced a little bit with the computer.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And then Irving goes to make a photocopy of the map to O and D. And out of the copier come the scary painting, this sort of, like, melee, this coup happening. And it's between O and D and mdr.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And we know it's OD and MDR because of the color of their tag.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, yeah, O and D has the green tags and MDR has the blue tags. And it's a great little weird kind of mural, like, painting of this office battle happening with people's throats getting slit.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. It's carnage.

[Ben Stiller]

And John Turturro's reaction is so amazing. His innie seeing this, he's just so this, you know, in terms of, like, sensory, the effect of seeing something like this, for him, who has seen very little in his life, that violent, you know, for a desensitized culture that we're in, where we see so much every moment on our phones and screens. For Irving, seeing this painting, he's never Seen any of that. And John just fills it with so much dread and fear. It makes it so important.

[Jen Tulloch]

Totally. And for Irv, his whole world, like, how he kind of. His, like, window into the world is completely through art and paintings.

[Ben Stiller]

And so this is horrifying, his sensitivity to these images. And then all of a sudden, Milchick is there. And let's play that little moment where Milchick finds him looking at the painting. No, I'm sorry, Irving. We must have sent this print job here by mistake. You weren't supposed to see this. What are these?

[Adam Scott]

Nothing.

[Ben Stiller]

A joke for Ms. Cobell. It's the O and D coup, isn't it?

[Adam Scott]

The one that Dylan talks about. Huh?

[Ben Stiller]

Did that actually happen, Mr. Milchick? Of course not.

[Adam Scott]

Nothing, nothing like that could happen here.

[Ben Stiller]

Wow.

[Jen Tulloch]

God, just awful.

[Ben Stiller]

The mind control going on. The levels with Milchick, fake lying and. Yeah. Throughout the episode, Milchik and Cobell are sort of going rogue and influencing all the employees. Sort of like, you know, like they're kind of pawns in their chess game. And we really get to see how that manipulation happens. And there's. Milchick goes back and sees Cobell, and it turns out it was an unauthorized 266. That's a maneuver.

[Jen Tulloch]

I try and pull two 6 6s on Jen all the time, and I've.

[Adam Scott]

Got the scars to prove it. Okay.

[Ben Stiller]

And you also get the sense that Cobell trusts Milchick with her secrets of what she's up to. And you get the feeling that what she's doing with Mark and sending him to Ms. Casey, we don't quite understand. But she's doing something that's unauthorized, right?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, they're kind of. You get the sense that they're going rogue down there.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

The relationship between Milchick and Cobell is one of my favorite relationships on the show. Watching that power dynamic and how it shifts and evolves is pretty fascinating. And man, oh, man, Tramiel, every time he opens his mouth in that character, I get a little scared.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think one of the interesting things in the show is that you don't quite know where people are coming from in management. You don't know if Milchik is up to something really bad. I mean, it seems like he's up to something bad, but then there are moments where he's kind of empathetic. And with Cobell, I mean, she's just such a cipher. And what Patricia is able to mask going on, it's just. It's fascinating to watch her but you're always wondering, what is she up to?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And, Ben, would you say that the idea of alienating MDR from optics and design through the art, or trying to get them to believe this fable about this big coup that occurred, is it the ultimate sort of idea behind it, the ultimate reason? Is it to prevent a form of unionizing or them getting too chummy?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, that's what it seems at this point, is that there's an interest in keeping them separate. And it's, you know, it's dividing. Dividing and conquering.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. Getting people divided on things that don't actually have anything to do with their lives is the surest way to be able to control them. Right. Isn't that sort of.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, and also in that, there's a scene later where Cobell says to tame a prisoner, the surest way to tame a prisoner is to let him believe he's free.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

So they're putting these ideas in their heads and letting the ideas fester and grow. So at the same time, in the office, Helly's really not loving having Ms. Casey observe her. And Mark sort of sees that and accidentally spills coffee to get Ms. Casey out of the way. And you and Helly take a little walk into the hallways.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. It seems part of this sort of shift that's happened for Mark since the suicide attempt is that he's started feeling badly and is worried about Heli.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah, I think he's worried about Helly. And he's also, I think, trying. I think he's kind of, in my perception, he's sort of wanting to connect with her.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

Maybe having some sort of feelings of, you know, I don't know if they're romantic feelings, but they're. He just wants to, you know, reach out to her. Yes. And Mark and Helly walk through the hallways and find this sort of abandoned office bay where the desks are wrapped up in plastic. And Mark tells her that he's been recreating the map that he shredded last.

[Jen Tulloch]

Week, which is a huge step for Mark to be creating this piece of contraband like this.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

For the sake of connecting with, like, I feel like he and Helly Burton Irving this episode, all these relationships are starting to sort of dislodge and take on a life of their own a little bit.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I think also the parallel of Innie, Mark starting to question what's going on a little bit too, making the map and Audi, Mark starting to question there's parallel tracks happening for Innie and Outymark at the same time.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Ben Stiller]

And you give Helly the map and you say, this is the map that Petey was drawing. I'm recreating. And she says, I'm not your new Petey.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right, right.

[Ben Stiller]

Not gonna be that easy with her. And you start going into the far recesses of the sort of the outer hallways, which are dark and kind of.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. So the lighting. It seems like the lights are kind of going on as they travel through the hallways. To save power, I would assume. Is that what that's about?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like the areas that are not used as much to save, you know, save energy and money, they keep the lights off, and they're triggered by motion sensors. I actually saw that in this great Ruben Osland movie, the Square.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my favorite movie.

[Jen Tulloch]

Oh, yeah, it's my favorite movie.

[Ben Stiller]

So great. So great.

[Jen Tulloch]

Really good.

[Ben Stiller]

And that was. I saw it in that. I was like, oh, that's really cool and creepy. He's a great filmmaker.

[Adam Scott]

He's incredible.

[Ben Stiller]

And so I think that's where that idea came from. And it sort of just creates more mystery. And the feeling of this. The maze of these hallways and the images it allows for in the frame are really fun because these perspectives and these kind of rectangles and different shapes that you can create with the lighting.

[Jen Tulloch]

It makes it even more disorienting and confusing, too. You really don't know where the hell you.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

And shooting it was really strange because those lights weren't motion sensor lights, obviously. There were technicians, our incredible lighting crew controlling those lights as we walked.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, exactly. So our gaffer, Kurt Lenning, would be literally triggering each light as you walk down the hallway. So we'd have to get that timing right on each take.

[Adam Scott]

Wow.

[Ben Stiller]

And then Mark and Helly hear a little baby goat bleat.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Is that the right. A goat bleat? I think goats bleat, and it's very jarring.

[Jen Tulloch]

And here we are with one of the. Would you say the hallmark elements of.

[Ben Stiller]

Severance is the baby goats people have really, really gotten?

[Adam Scott]

People love the goats.

[Jen Tulloch]

You really do.

[Ben Stiller]

It's pretty funny because, I mean, yeah, the goats, you know. Again, Dan Erickson coming up with the idea of goats in office hallways. What are the goats about? Cause you guys find this room, and there's a gentleman with a sort of a leather apron and a bunch of baby goats he's nursing who gets very, very concerned that you're trying to take the goats away.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's really weird. And one of the the things that we shot. And it was really fun and interesting being with baby goats all day. But then when the show comes out a year later and this element of the show sort of explodes, it was not something I anticipated at all. I don't know about you.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, no, no, no, definitely. I didn't think about it either. And also, I think it was also just the mystery of the goats. What are the goats about? And you don't really get a sense of that from this scene at all.

[Jen Tulloch]

Should we hear a clip of that particular scene?

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They're not ready.

[Jen Tulloch]

You can't take them yet.

[Ben Stiller]

They're not ready.

[Jen Tulloch]

It is in time. Get the hell out of here.

[Adam Scott]

Go. Those goats had to go to the same ADR studio.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. They were there with you, correct?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, yeah. They asked me to double team.

[Jen Tulloch]

It was one of them running the ADR session, like with headphones and everything.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, that was Jane. She's great.

[Jen Tulloch]

She's terrific. She's like a grown up now. It's crazy.

[Adam Scott]

Absolutely.

[Ben Stiller]

So there's like a really big severance Reddit site, I think it's called R Severance, Apple tv. And there's a lot of, lot of theories apparently there about what the goats are about.

[Adam Scott]

But friends did send me links to this Reddit and they're really cool and smart. Like a lot of them are like, oh, that would be an interesting direction. But they loved the goats.

[Ben Stiller]

One of them is. Here's a quote. I really think they're testing cloning technologies. That's interesting because didn't they clone a sheep?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, yeah. In like the 90s.

[Ben Stiller]

What was her name?

[Adam Scott]

Sally.

[Ben Stiller]

No, it was Deborah. No, Betsy.

[Adam Scott]

Bessie.

[Jen Tulloch]

Betsy.

[Adam Scott]

Dolly. Dolly. Dolly. Dolly.

[Ben Stiller]

But whatever happened with that? Because there was a whole thing. They cloned a sheep. But then at this point they should be cloning people.

[Jen Tulloch]

They are. We just don't know about it.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, my God.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. You guys, you should read my subreddit.

[Ben Stiller]

Someone should follow up on that cloning thing is all I'm saying.

[Jen Tulloch]

You know, it's been a while.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

I want to hear some new cloning.

[Ben Stiller]

Techniques because that would work out well for all of us.

[Jen Tulloch]

Like you could clone yourself to live through daylight savings time.

[Ben Stiller]

What's another theory? The goats have been inserted with the outies of other severed employees. People, their minds are trapped in the goats.

[Jen Tulloch]

Oh, wow.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, that's spicy. Wow, that's cool.

[Ben Stiller]

So like the goats have the. Yeah. The consciousness of seven people in them.

[Adam Scott]

That's Adam. I'm curious, just actor to actor, what it was like, to work with the goats.

[Jen Tulloch]

I mean, listen, I've worked with a lot of really talented creatures over the years, human and not human.

[Ben Stiller]

Thank you.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, I actually took video that day, and I kind of pan over to our boom operator, Kira Smith, and then go down, and you see that baby goats are eating her shoelaces. They will just walk up to you and start eating your pants. And they are so cute and gentle and they're lovely also.

[Ben Stiller]

I think they were actually. They're not all baby goats. They were pygmy goats.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, I think you are.

[Ben Stiller]

I think so. Some of them were baby pygmy goats, so they never get that big.

[Adam Scott]

Would you say that's in the top three questions you get asked is about the goats?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, I get a lot of goat stuff just because of the show, but also generally. So while Helly and Mark are wandering the halls, Irving and Dylan go to find Burt.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, Dylan is sort of suspicious.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

And he follows.

[Jen Tulloch]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

He follows Irving. Right.

[Jen Tulloch]

And I love this scene with the three of them, with Dylan, Irv, and Burt. And seeing these three incredible actors kind of jump into this. And Christopher Walken saying that he was practicing a joke. That's why he was there. And Irving kind of getting stuck on it and saying, if you were coming to see me, why were you in the conference room? And you just sort of get this. Again, another example of this being such a small world for these people, and these small moves within an office environment take on such meaning.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Do you want to hear that scene?

[Jen Tulloch]

Totally.

[Ben Stiller]

It's literally silly. Like they say, you all have pouches. Pouches, like to carry young.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

According to some, you each have a larval offspring that will jump out and attack if we get too close. That's fucking psycho. I mean, it's a joke, of course, but I don't know, the sentiment somehow holds.

[Adam Scott]

People are weird, though.

[Ben Stiller]

I'd be remiss not to say that in this theory, the larva eventually eats and replaces you, which, Irving, would solve the mystery of your youthful energy.

[Jen Tulloch]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Scott]

When they flirt, I just. I just melt.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's the best.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, that dialogue is just so unique.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's very. Dan.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

You know, the larva eventually eats and replaces you. It's so awesome.

[Ben Stiller]

That's his little flirtatious move.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Solve the mystery of your youthful energy.

[Adam Scott]

But it's also.

[Ben Stiller]

Dan Marvel can eat out of its.

[Adam Scott]

To be like, sort of spinning these fantastical tales. But then you have a character that's so grounded in realism. That they're cutting through because Dylan is like, that's fucking psycho.

[Jen Tulloch]

Totally.

[Adam Scott]

It's so great.

[Ben Stiller]

And the King of Fucks.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah, that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

That could be Chris Walken's next film. And Secret to King of New York.

[Jen Tulloch]

The King of Fucks. And it's interesting to get this insight into how Lumen, like top brass, they plant these fantastical myths about, you know, department versus department we were talking about earlier. It's just crazy, the things that they're sort of planting in their minds.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And it really sets Dylan off. And Dylan's dialogue, too. Are you sweet on this guy?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

It's like, all of a sudden, he's, like, in a 1940s movie.

[Adam Scott]

I know. It's great, but without the homophobia of a 1940s movie, which I think is really special in the world of Lumens, is that Dylan's just annoying that he has a crush on someone.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, yeah. He has no problem with that. It's just that he's from O and D. Yeah, that's right. He does not trust him.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. So they go off to O and D, right?

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. Bert sort of invites them along.

[Ben Stiller]

Right, Right. But they tie Bert up. Right.

[Jen Tulloch]

They tie his hands.

[Ben Stiller]

Dylan takes his belt, which becomes a theme in the show somehow.

[Jen Tulloch]

And then on their walk over to O and D, they continue flirting. And seeing Dylan as, like, the third wheel is so funny.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, they're flirting while Bird has his hands tied behind his back. And Dylan is behind them like a guard. And then he unties them, and he's like, hey, why don't you come in for a second? I'll show you something.

[Jen Tulloch]

Like, burt just doesn't care. Isn't threatened by these guys in my.

[Adam Scott]

Dream, like, alternative reality, alternate reality. Rather, Burt has a public access talk show, and his Audi has a public access talk show. Cause I could just listen to him philosophize about things all day long with, like, a giant padded microphone.

[Jen Tulloch]

I'd watch that.

[Adam Scott]

Me, too.

[Ben Stiller]

And then while they're hanging out, Bert and Irving, Dylan sort of kind of starts snooping around in the back of the O and D, sort of the storage area, where, by the way, the production design there was sort of, I think, intentional to make those drawers kind of. It feels kind of like a morgue.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And I love that feeling there. It's kind of, like, weirdly creepy, even though it's just art stuff.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. That's so interesting. So he finds another version of the painting that was so upsetting earlier in the episode. Except this time, the lanyards are switched and MDR are now the aggressors, and O and D are the victims.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And it happens just as Irving is starting to kind of make a move on Bert in terms of reaching out to touch his hand after the last time where he had pulled away. Now Irving is starting to feel more confident and wanting to connect with him. And just at that moment, Dylan comes out with the painting saying, look, look, they're lying. They're lying. Look at this.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

But Dylan didn't realize that the tags had been switched. So, you know, Irving and Burt look at the painting and realize that somebody had shown them a version of the painting with the tag switched. That was what the printed one was. And they start to get the sense that someone's trying to manipulate them.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And it's interesting to see sort of the ripple effects of heli arriving down here are just sort of reaching out, and everyone is sort of shifting their mind a little bit about their circumstances. Down.

[Ben Stiller]

And Burt takes this opportunity to open the door to that back room that Irving had sort of peeked into last time and introduces them to the O and D team and says, you know, they're friends.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah. And we see Felicia in there, too, whom we love. Felicia, we'd met earlier, Claudia Robinson, who.

[Ben Stiller]

She's great.

[Jen Tulloch]

Truly. All right, so that's episode five. Jen, how are you feeling about season dos or two?

[Adam Scott]

I always forget your bilingual. I feel great. I'm so excited. I think the fact that both Adam and I have aged so aggressively between seasons really lends a new level of vulnerability to both of the characters.

[Jen Tulloch]

But beyond that, I hope people recognize you.

[Adam Scott]

I hope they do, too. I think. I think. And you know what? If they don't, it's okay. I don't need it. I don't need it.

[Jen Tulloch]

But you didn't get a facelift like I did before we started, which is.

[Adam Scott]

And you always said, only do it in Spain, and now I understand why.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's seamless and way cheaper.

[Ben Stiller]

You guys both look marvelous. You look marvelous.

[Adam Scott]

You do, too, Ben.

[Jen Tulloch]

You look marvelous.

[Adam Scott]

You all look marvelous. I think season two is marvelous, and I'm so excited.

[Jen Tulloch]

You got to get Billy Crystal on the podcast.

[Ben Stiller]

Definitely.

[Adam Scott]

We have to get Billy Christian on the show.

[Ben Stiller]

We should get Conan O'Brien, because I was just doing Conan's podcast the other day, and he's a really big fan of the show, and I think we should someday try to get Al Pacino.

[Jen Tulloch]

On the show 100.

[Ben Stiller]

Cause he is the man. He is. My acting idol. He's the world's acting idol.

[Adam Scott]

I just wanted to say to those listening, because he won't say it himself, but Ben Stiller has, I'm gonna say, an airtight impersonation of Pagina.

[Jen Tulloch]

Truly.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Jen Tulloch]

Which I didn't know about until today.

[Ben Stiller]

No, it's me doing an impression of Bill Hader's impression about Pagina.

[Adam Scott]

Just as good.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, Bill Hader is the. Let's have Bill Hader on the show. I don't even know if Bill's a friend, but I don't even know he's seen the show.

[Jen Tulloch]

I think he likes the show.

[Ben Stiller]

He's just so entertaining.

[Adam Scott]

He would impersonate every character to a frightening degree.

[Ben Stiller]

It would be great. It's crazy how good Bill Hader's impressions are.

[Jen Tulloch]

And he does, like, Alan Alda and people that don't usually get in person.

[Adam Scott]

And mash.

[Jen Tulloch]

He does all the characters of mash.

[Ben Stiller]

But I do have it on inside information from having had an interaction with Mr. Pacino, and I know you did, too, that he is a fan of the show, which just really makes me want to now just retire.

[Jen Tulloch]

It's so cool.

[Adam Scott]

That's really cool.

[Jen Tulloch]

I cried a little bit after I met him, and he told us that. Have you ever talked to him about Al Pacino?

[Ben Stiller]

I have not. Tropic Thunder. Yeah. I know it was an interaction at a dinner, and I just try to pretend like it's, hey, it's cool talking to these people, but these are people that are so, like, the work is so just the basis for why we do what we do. Right.

[Jen Tulloch]

Al Pacino, man.

[Adam Scott]

I think when people at such an insane level of success, such as yourselves are able to be honest about those moments that feel cool. And I think that it's. We should all maintain that for all of our lives. I think it's very special when you're like, oh, you've inspired so many people. But then when you talk about someone who's inspired you, I think it's cool.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying, Jen, about acting. And when you think about your characters as kids. Yeah. Like, aren't we. Like, isn't that what the basic. Like, we're all. We're all kids.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. We're all fans. Yeah. Of something.

[Ben Stiller]

And you do need to be in touch with that as an actor, but just as a person like that. That's kind of like the. The basis of your feelings. And so, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Cate Blanchett put two fingers on my shoulder simply to steady herself at an event. It had nothing to do with me. And it was like a hot knife through butter. It changed my molecular structure.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Cause she trusted you enough to lean on you.

[Jen Tulloch]

She said she saw you as a solid person, a balanced, solid.

[Adam Scott]

She said, look at those shoulders. I can lean here.

[Jen Tulloch]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. For me, it's like that is the excitement of doing what we do. Like to be able to interact with people who you, you know, who have inspired you so much or whose work you still go to, you still watch and still, you know, every. Every day you can go back and look at this stuff. And it's what keeps me wanting to do. Do what we do.

[Adam Scott]

I feel that way about this podcast.

[Ben Stiller]

There.

[Adam Scott]

How about that?

[Jen Tulloch]

Thank you, Jerry.

[Adam Scott]

How about that, guys?

[Jen Tulloch]

And thank you for being on the podcast.

[Adam Scott]

My pleasure. It was so good to be with you.

[Jen Tulloch]

That is it for episode five. Follow rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app or anywhere else. You love listening to our gorgeous voices. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions and Great Scott Productions.

[Ben Stiller]

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Bari Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Rhys Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra, Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basel. We have additional engineering from Javi Cruces and Davy Sumner.

[Jen Tulloch]

Show clips are courtesy of fifth season music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff.

[Ben Stiller]

And the team at Red John Lesher, Carolina Pesakov, Gian Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker and Oliver Agar.

[Jen Tulloch]

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin and Christy Smith. At Rise Management.

[Ben Stiller]

We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristin Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, marielexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter.

[Jen Tulloch]

I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller and we will see you next time.

[Ben Stiller]

Hey, Adam.

[Jen Tulloch]

Yeah?

[Ben Stiller]

Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

[Jen Tulloch]

I. I don't know. I think it's. It's okay.

[Ben Stiller]

I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian oh, my God.

[Jen Tulloch]

Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose confluence by Atlassian.

[Ben Stiller]

Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

[Jen Tulloch]

So that would equal out, like, if we're playing with, like, let's just say 100%. 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah, that's the improvement.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

[Jen Tulloch]

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

So why not keep your team unsevered in Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian.com confluence that's a T L a S S I-a n.com C-O-N-F L U-E-N C e.