S2E4: Woe's Hollow (with Theodore Shapiro)

Summary

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
Episode: S2E4: Woe's Hollow (with Theodore Shapiro)
Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Severance Podcast, hosts Ben Stiller and Adam Scott delve into Season 2, Episode 4 titled "Woe's Hollow." They are joined by the show's brilliant composer, Theodore Shapiro, who offers an in-depth look into the musical landscape that shapes the eerie and surreal world of Severance. The discussion not only explores behind-the-scenes insights but also examines the intricate relationship between music and narrative in the series.

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Interview with Theodore Shapiro

Collaborating on Music

Ben and Adam begin by reminiscing about their longstanding collaboration with Theodore Shapiro, highlighting his pivotal role in creating the show's distinctive soundscape.

Ben Stiller [08:28]: "Teddy writes something brilliant, and I go, that's great."

Thomorrow emphasizes the evolution of their creative process, noting how the music becomes an integral part of the storytelling from the early stages of production.

Theodore Shapiro [12:32]: "With MIDI and then with this, the big difference is just me starting to write earlier in the process and sort of having the music exist during Ben's creative process earlier."

Creation of Specific Themes

The conversation turns to the genesis of the show's main theme, a process deeply influenced by the COVID-19 pandemic, which provided Shapiro the time and space to experiment.

Theodore Shapiro [13:19]: "I had this kind of fond memory during the summer of COVID in 2020. We had, like, just discovered the main theme."

Shapiro recounts how a simple four-chord progression transformed into a haunting melody that perfectly encapsulates the show's mysterious ambiance.

Shapiro [15:03]: "It became more of this mystery. And I was like, oh, wait, maybe this is the whole thing... Like, this would be the music if the whole show was just like one kind of puzzle."

Scoring Scenes

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on specific musical cues crafted for pivotal scenes. Shapiro elaborates on the theremin's role in enhancing the supernatural elements of the narrative.

Shapiro [29:13]: "The theremin music Sarah Bach is playing is not the Keir hymn, but it unlocked this whole body of Kier folk music."

Ben passionately praises Shapiro's ability to infuse each scene with the right emotional undercurrent.

Ben Stiller [18:19]: "You can't emphasize enough how important Teddy's music is for the show. It inspires me visually and just, you know, in terms of the tone of the piece."

Shapiro shares his collaborative dynamic with the editing team, underscoring the seamless integration of music and narrative.

Shapiro [20:54]: "We are making the show in post together in a really interactive and creative way."

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Production Stories

Grand Central Station Pop-up

Ben and Adam recount the spontaneous severance-themed pop-up event at Grand Central Station, highlighting how it bridged the gap between the show and its fans.

Ben Stiller [03:44]: "Nobody could hear you guys on the inside. And people were literally enthralled. It was mesmerizing."

Adam adds a touch of humor while reflecting on the unexpected nature of the event.

Adam Scott [03:11]: "He’s like an octopus. In what way?"

The hosts emphasize the organic engagement with a global fanbase, sharing interactions with fans from various countries.

Ben Stiller [05:00]: "I talked to people from Brazil, I talked to people from Ireland, from England."

Location Shooting Challenges

The podcast delves into the logistical complexities of filming "Woe's Hollow," especially the decision to shoot on a real snowy location rather than using green screens.

Ben Stiller [42:04]: "We knew snow was really important... we found Awosting Falls, which is near Lake Minnewaska."

Adam describes the physical demands placed on the cast during the shoot.

Adam Scott [48:39]: "We had these boots that also had crampons attached to them... walking through deep snow and or blueberry bushes made lifting our feet up and down exhausting."

The hosts highlight the dedication of the crew in overcoming harsh weather conditions to achieve authentic visuals.

Ben Stiller [44:30]: "The weather was constantly changing when we were filming this episode."

Costume Design

Sarah Edwards, the costume designer, played a crucial role in defining the visual tone of the episode with period-inspired outfits that starkly contrast against the snowy backdrop.

Ben Stiller [49:09]: "Dan had this idea that it would feel like it was from like a hundred years ago."

Adam praises the meticulous attention to detail in the wardrobe choices.

Adam Scott [49:38]: "It felt like Revenant era."

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Specific Scenes and Challenges

Theremin in Mrs. Wong's Scene

A standout moment in the episode is the introduction of the theremin used by Mrs. Wong, adding a layer of supernatural eeriness.

Ben Stiller [32:14]: "Sarah Bach learned how to play the theremin for the episode. You can tell she knows what she's doing. It looks perfect."

Shapiro explains the technical aspects and creative decisions behind incorporating the theremin.

Shapiro [30:30]: "That was how I did it. I have to admit that I don't play a theremin, but I used an early electronic instrument that sounds like one."

Dream Sequence and Thematic Elements

The discussion transitions to the dream sequence involving Irving, which required innovative filming techniques to capture the surreal quality desired.

Ben Stiller [57:35]: "It's this strong, dark, incredibly forceful version of Irving that we've never seen before."

Shapiro shares his admiration for John Turturro's performance, which brought profound emotional depth to the scene.

Adam Scott [58:33]: "John is world class. And you see it here. He's a heavyweight."

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Episode Plot Discussion

"Woe's Hollow" marks a critical point in the narrative, where Irving becomes increasingly suspicious of Heli's intentions and secrets surrounding her Audi activation.

Ben Stiller [52:56]: "Irving pushes Heli about what really went on. Just tell us about him."

The hosts dissect Irving's emotional turmoil and his confrontation with Heli, highlighting the show's exploration of memory and identity.

Adam Scott [55:40]: "Irving pushes Heli about what really went on... It's like he's extra sensitive to the vibrations of everyone in the group."

They discuss the impactful moment where Irving accuses Heli of being a "mole," leading to a dramatic and emotional fallout.

Ben Stiller [57:09]: "It’s one of my favorite Irving, John Turturro moments in the series."

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Fan Interaction

The episode features a voicemail from a fan named Don, inquiring about the inspiration behind the "Praise Cure" anthem featured in Season 1.

Don [35:38]: "What was the influence behind the Praise Cure anthem that was sang to the crew at the end of season one?"

Shapiro provides a thoughtful response, tracing the anthem's roots to a lullaby from Night of the Hunter and its transformation into a haunting hymn.

Shapiro [36:54]: "I wrote the Keira Hymn sort of as a lullaby. And then Patricia performed it as a punishment."

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Final Reflections

As the episode wraps up, Ben and Adam reflect on the emotional and technical achievements of "Woe's Hollow," expressing gratitude towards Shapiro's contributions.

Ben Stiller [34:13]: "We're so lucky to have Teddy."

The hosts also share heartfelt acknowledgments of their collaborative journey, emphasizing the seamless blend of acting and musical composition that elevates the series.

Adam Scott [37:40]: "I'm so amazed by everything that you're doing."

The episode concludes with a light-hearted segment featuring Zack Cherry, who humorously predicts future events in the series, adding a playful close to the in-depth analysis.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Severance Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of "Woe's Hollow," shedding light on the creative processes behind its production and the critical role of music in shaping the show's enigmatic atmosphere. Through engaging dialogue and insightful anecdotes, Ben Stiller, Adam Scott, and Theodore Shapiro provide fans with a deeper appreciation of the artistry that drives Severance forward.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ben Stiller [08:28]: "Teddy writes something brilliant, and I go, that's great."
• Shapiro [15:03]: "This would be the music if the whole show was just like one kind of puzzle."
• Ben Stiller [18:19]: "You can't emphasize enough how important Teddy's music is for the show."
• Shapiro [20:54]: "We are making the show in post together in a really interactive and creative way."
• Adam Scott [49:38]: "It felt like Revenant era."
• Ben Stiller [57:35]: "It's this strong, dark, incredibly forceful version of Irving that we've never seen before."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of The Severance Podcast episode on "Woe's Hollow," intertwining production insights, musical discussions, and plot analysis to provide a rich and engaging overview for listeners.

Transcript

[Ben Stiller]

This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by State Farm. Learn [e-mail] severance like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Adam.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah?

[Ben Stiller]

Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

[Adam Scott]

I don't know. I think it's.

[Ben Stiller]

It's okay. I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose confluence by Atlassian.

[Ben Stiller]

Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and. And deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

[Adam Scott]

So that would equal out, like, if we're playing with, like, let's just say, 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah, that's the improvement.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

[Adam Scott]

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

So why not keep your team unsevered in Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all set, knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian.com confluence that's a T L a S S I-a n.com C-O-N-F L-U-E-N C E hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott, and this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

[Adam Scott]

And today we're talking about the fourth episode of season two, Woes Hollow wr, written by Anna Oyong Munch and directed by Ben Stiller.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, this was a big one for us. And the other exciting thing is that we're gonna be joined by Severance's marvelous composer, Theodore Shapiro.

[Adam Scott]

Yes. Then Ben and I are gonna talk about some scenes from the episode.

[Ben Stiller]

And of course, the prophetic Zack Cherry will be back to tell us what he thinks will happen in the next episode.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

Zack doesn't watch anything. We don't even know if he reads the scripts when he's, you know, except for his lines.

[Adam Scott]

He just feels what he thinks is going to happen.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

He's like an octopus.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, like an octopus? In what way?

[Adam Scott]

Well, he's an octopi. Tends to intellectualize each one of their arms. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Ben Stiller]

Does this have to do with, like, my octopus teacher?

[Adam Scott]

Yes. Which I didn't see. Okay.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And you're saying an octopi, but an octopi.

[Adam Scott]

Octopi is a plural. I mean, several. Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

So. Oh, you're saying octopi use. They sense things.

[Adam Scott]

I'm just assuming that that movie is about a psychic octopus. And I. I don't think that's what it's about.

[Ben Stiller]

It is not.

[Adam Scott]

Be warned, there are spoilers for episode four here. So learn from my recap pod listening mistakes and be sure to watch the episode first and then listen to us.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, definitely. Because there's definitely a big, big spoiler in this episode.

[Adam Scott]

Good Lord.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

So how have you been, Ben?

[Ben Stiller]

I'm great. Yeah, I am great. I'm still buzzing from the experience of the Grand Central Station severance pop up. That happened when we're recording this yesterday.

[Adam Scott]

That was just so much fun.

[Ben Stiller]

It was incredible.

[Adam Scott]

It really felt like we were taking a step back and bringing to sort of a basic performance level. And it was like a happening.

[Ben Stiller]

It was like a happening. Yeah. Like a Fluxus sort of thing, if you know about that history of experimental performance art. The idea was to have a cube in the middle of Grand Central Station that had the cubicle with you guys sitting there doing your severance stuff. And you guys, originally, it was a great idea that Apple had. And originally it was just gonna be actors that they hired to kind of like, look like office workers at the cubicle. And then you said, we should do it. The actors should really do it.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

You said, I'll do that.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And I just figured the cast would be game. And lo and behold, everybody was super into it.

[Ben Stiller]

It was incredible. It was incredible. And you guys just went in there for three hours.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And you refined and you interacted.

[Adam Scott]

I vacuumed the floor while you did that.

[Ben Stiller]

The little roller thing which you do in episode two, I think not a real vacuum.

[Adam Scott]

And I'm not convinced it does anything but just move dust particles around.

[Ben Stiller]

Then Ms. Cobell came in.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, man.

[Ben Stiller]

And you got in trouble with her at one point.

[Adam Scott]

Many times.

[Ben Stiller]

She got upset. She threw a coffee cup. I was talking to my wife and daughter on the outside when the coffee cup got thrown, and I was like, whoa, what just happened? What just happened? It was amazing, though. Cause nobody could hear you guys on the inside. And people were literally enthralled. It was mesmerizing. When Milchick came in with the red ball. I don't even know what he was doing with the red ball, but he didn't look happy.

[Adam Scott]

No.

[Ben Stiller]

And at a certain point, Patricia got under the desk to what was going on there.

[Adam Scott]

Well, a couple of the monitors went out, and so Patricia took it upon herself to try and fix them. And then once she started fiddling with the plugs, all of the monitors.

[Ben Stiller]

That's so Patricia. It really is.

[Adam Scott]

But when Tramiel walked out. Cause you had to kind of walk through the crowd to get to the Cube, the whole place got really quiet.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And then, like, there were cheers, too. I think when he came back the second time. And when Patricia came in, it was so great. It was just, you know, people discovered it, nobody announced it, and it was just.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, we just walked in and there was no announcement or anything. And people just sort of started stumbling upon it and being like, wait a second, those are the actors from the show. And we just improvised for three hours. But there was a certain freedom to it. Cause no one could hear us, so we could just do whatever we wanted. And we kind of decided that it fell somewhere around season one, episode three. Just the culture of MDR felt like it fell somewhere in that area.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I could not have been more excited or happy watching it. And it just was so much fun.

[Adam Scott]

It was a blast.

[Ben Stiller]

And it was fun to. For me on the outside, I was, like, taking pictures. I got to talk to fans of the show. It wasn't just people who were going home from work. There were people who saw it on Reddit or on social media and came down who were fans of the show.

[Adam Scott]

They made the trip.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, they saw it, came up on their feed, and they ran over, and it was great. I talked to people from Brazil, I talked to people from Ireland, from England. It was just great to talk to fans of the show and see how excited they were about the second season. And, you know, you don't get a chance really to interact. I guess when you guys went down to Brazil for the Comic Con down there, you got a chance to meet people.

[Adam Scott]

We did. And people are so excited for season two, which is really flattering and so much fun. But this had its own sort of organic feeling to it, because, like you said, there was no announcement. It was just something. And I'm glad we did it for a few hours. Because people like you said were able to kind of make the trip and we were still there by the time they got there.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. We wanted it to go on for long enough that people could discover it and you guys would still be there. And you guys were troopers and amazing and so much fun. So that was great. Well, all right. Our guest.

[Adam Scott]

This is exciting.

[Ben Stiller]

Is one of Severance's secret weapons. Though he's not really that secret because he won an Emmy for the show.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like we're the secret weapons.

[Adam Scott]

We're the secret weapons.

[Ben Stiller]

That's the. Theodore Shapiro, Teddy Shapps, as his friends call him. Teddy, how are you, man?

[Theodore Shapiro]

I'm good. How are you guys?

[Adam Scott]

Great.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, we're good. We're good.

[Adam Scott]

So great having you here.

[Ben Stiller]

And, oh, by the way, Adam and I are in person together in New York here right now, which is fun.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. We can high five, like, multiple times if we needed to.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah, you've done it already so many times.

[Ben Stiller]

That's right. So, Teddy, you and I go back a while. Do you remember?

[Theodore Shapiro]

It's.

[Ben Stiller]

Do you remember when we first met?

[Theodore Shapiro]

We first met, you called me to try to get me successfully, try to get me to work on Dodgeball.

[Ben Stiller]

That's so funny. Cause I was asking you that question like I knew the answer, and I don't remember when we first met. So now, I mean, I know dodgeball was the first thing we worked on. And I'm wondering, do you remember what you had done? Sure.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah. So I had just done Along Came Polly and Starsky and Hutch.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, okay.

[Theodore Shapiro]

And I think.

[Adam Scott]

I think you'd see, maybe that's where you guys knew each other.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I wasn't involved with either of those movies in any way other than just showing up on the set. But, yeah, no, I didn't. I mean, you know, Todd Phillips directed Starsky and Hutch. And the great John Hamburg, who's a mutual friend of ours, wrote and directed Along Came Polly and. Yeah, those scores were great. And you came. And Ross and Thurber, who was directing Dodgeball. I guess I must have suggested that. You know, let's talk to Teddy. You were probably Theodore to us back then, before we knew you. Hey, can I ask you something? Can I ask you something?

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, sure. It is Shapiro, right?

[Theodore Shapiro]

It is Shapiro.

[Ben Stiller]

I've always wondered that. You know, some people pronounce Shapiro Shapiro. Yeah. What is it?

[Theodore Shapiro]

I mean, I think that Shapiro is the correct pronunciation. And I think that Shapiro must be just some weird Ellis island, you know, decision that one of my forefathers made.

[Ben Stiller]

Really? Really.

[Theodore Shapiro]

I mean, I'm not the only Shapiro. There are others out there. But I don't think it's grounded in anything authentic. I think it must be some Americanization.

[Ben Stiller]

So it's not like an affectation that you put on it. When you came to Hollywood, I was.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Not like trying to make people.

[Adam Scott]

Sounds like you may be accusing him of an affectation.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, you know, he's like a fancy composer and maybe he's like, you know, I don't know.

[Adam Scott]

It is quite fancy.

[Theodore Shapiro]

I was not trying to impress anybody with Shapiro.

[Ben Stiller]

I'm impressed with it. And I get to impress people when they say, like, oh, I really like Theodore Shapiro's work. I'm like, it's Shapiro.

[Adam Scott]

Excuse me, it's Shapiro.

[Theodore Shapiro]

For those in the know. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

So, Teddy, you and I know each other completely separate from all of this because our sons, Julian and Graham, have been in school together since kindergarten.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yes. And you know, I was thinking about the fact that the first time I ever heard about this show was at a Halloween party where you and I were accompanying our sons and talking about what's going on. And you told me about this show and I was like, oh, man, that sounds really good. I hope Ben calls me also.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, the first time that I ever met you was at our kids preschool in Pasadena.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

I remember going like, oh, that's Adam Scott.

[Adam Scott]

I remember just being like, holy shit, Ben Stiller's here. Holy shit, holy shit.

[Ben Stiller]

So Teddy and we went on to do a few movies together.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, you did Tropic Thunder together and Walter Mitte. So you guys have worked together quite a bit.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, we have.

[Adam Scott]

Is there a particular process you guys fall into together? Is each project sort of a fresh start?

[Ben Stiller]

What do you think, Teddy?

[Theodore Shapiro]

I mean, I think that each project has actually been a little different from the last. We've developed a little bit more of a process over time. And in particular, I think what I would say is that with MIDI and then with this, the big difference is just me starting to write earlier in the process and sort of having the music exist during Ben's creative process earlier, which I think helped in both cases, which helped the music sort of evolve as like an integral part of the project.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, I remember having some pieces that you had written on set from the very beginning. When we started shooting Season one, you had some kind of sketches of themes for us to play on set. And it was really important to have that.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, well, we were lucky on severance because when we had this delay due to Covid, I think that was around the time you were able to write a lot of music.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think that we found our main theme during the COVID break. I actually, like, I have this kind of fond memory during the summer of COVID in 2020. We had, like, just discovered the main theme. And I was up in Oregon and drove to Oregon.

[Ben Stiller]

Can I just interrupt you? When you say we had just discovered the main theme, what that means is Teddy wrote the main theme. Actually wrote three different. Or didn't you send me, like, three different options?

[Adam Scott]

Wow.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Well, I said so. Actually, I had started writing a bunch of themes and sending them to you, and you were excited about what I was coming up with. And then In February of 2020, I flew to New York and we met up at the set, and you were, like, listening to the music, and there was just, like, this one little part that you kept coming back to, and it was just like. It was the B section of something that I'd written. It wasn't, like, the main part of it, but you kept coming back to that thing. And I was like, oh, first of all, always follow Ben's instincts. That's like the cardinal rule. And, like, there's something that Ben is responding to here. And in that thing that we were listening to, it was kind of like an electronic piece. And then when I got back to la, like, I went home and I sat down at the piano and I played the four chords from that B section at the piano, and it was like, oh, what if it was this?

[Adam Scott]

So wait, when you say it was an electronic piece, do you mean. Yeah, it was. What do you mean? Like, it was that same melody, but.

[Theodore Shapiro]

It wasn't the melody. It was just like the four chords, but all of the sounds were, like, more overtly electronic.

[Adam Scott]

Okay.

[Theodore Shapiro]

But when I played it at the piano, suddenly, like, the tone of it changed completely and it became more of this mystery. And I was like, oh, wait, maybe this is the. Like, maybe this is the whole thing.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Because we had been talking about, like, what if there's one sound for the Innies and one sound for the Audis? And, like, the. Any world is electronic and the Audi world is organic. And, you know, but when I played that thing, I was like, oh, wait a minute. What if the whole show is just like a puzzle? Like, this would be the music if the whole show was just one kind of puzzle.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

So I sent that off to Ben, and I was pretty excited about it. And did not hear back from Ben for, like, three weeks. And, oh, boy. And so I was like, oh, man, that's a bummer. He didn't like it. And I sort of thought that I was onto something. And then, like, one day, like, the phone rang and he. Oh, I love this thing. Like, this is great. I'm really into this.

[Ben Stiller]

You're like, where the hell have you been for three weeks?

[Adam Scott]

Was it just sitting in your inbox for three weeks?

[Ben Stiller]

No, I had listened to it immediately, and I just didn't want Teddy to feel too good about, like, that. He was smart.

[Adam Scott]

Smart.

[Ben Stiller]

Thank you. No, I don't. I think I must have gotten preoccupied or something, or I was doing other stuff.

[Adam Scott]

And there's also something else unique about this particular theme in that it's not just providing kind of this emotional through line for the series and sort of tying things together. It's also really catchy in its own right, which instrumental themes often are. Not often, they're there as sort of background. But this is a really kind of earwormy, really beautiful song. And to think that you were kind of sectioning it off as sort of a minor part of another theme is really interesting. And Ben. It kind of obviously stood out to Ben, but you were. Was it like a bridge to something else?

[Theodore Shapiro]

It wasn't a bridge to something else, but it was just sort of the middle. You know, it was like, here's my main idea. Okay, I'm gonna do something here, and then I'm gonna come back to my main idea. And you know what's interesting about that is that sometimes when you're not being precious about something, you'll just do something that is simple and memorable. Thinking that you're just kind of tossing it off.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

And.

[Adam Scott]

And the more complicated thing is gonna be the main.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Exactly. And, yeah, I mean, it was just. It was funny because I had these four chords, and the fourth chord kind of demanded that I write this, like, sort of a weird melodic idea. And that's where, you know, da, da, da, da, da. Yeah, you know, it was the thing that fit with the weird fourth chord.

[Ben Stiller]

And the fourth chord often does that, doesn't it?

[Theodore Shapiro]

That's the thing.

[Ben Stiller]

I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Adam Scott]

I was just gonna say, what are you talking about?

[Ben Stiller]

What's amazing to me, Teddy, is, like, you can't emphasize enough how important Teddy's music is for the show. I think. You know, just. I am such a fan of yours, and I really don't understand how you do what you do. You know, in terms of the creative process, because you have so many constrictions in terms of what you're having to create, you know, to have something, like, to score a scene and to time that it can take and how much, you know, and the notes that you get, the feedback of, you know, if it's right for the scene or not. And also just, like, where it comes from and the instrumentation and all these things. I'm just amazed at your process because you also are incredibly fast in terms of how you do the work, and it kind of spoils you for any other process because Teddy will turn things around so quickly. But it's really, for me, any movie we've worked on together, it makes me want to be in this world, to live in this world that the music creates, that, you know, inspires me visually and just, you know, in terms of the tone of the piece. And so we were really lucky that you were willing to write this music ahead of time when we started shooting season one, so that when we were shooting and on set, we could actually play it during some scenes and when we were trying to find the tone of the show. And so we'd play it in MDR or something, and it would just sort of change.

[Adam Scott]

Walking down the hallways and stuff, you would play it, and it did really help.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. You know, there's so much music in the show. There's so much music in the show.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And I agree. It's so integral to the show and the feeling in the show. And I actually feel like your music has saved me on a number of occasions in scenes.

[Ben Stiller]

Teddy, we. You're a filmmaker, and what I mean by that is, like, you just, you know movies so well, and you've worked on a lot of movies, and I feel like that's another part of our relationship and our collaboration for me is, you know, the way that you work with Jeff, our editor. You guys have developed an amazing relationship, but, you know, when an episode comes in, you know, you get the rough cut of the episode. I. There's always, like, a little something inside. Inside me to, like. I hear from Teddy, like, did you like it? Do you not? You know, and it's not because it's not because I just want you to like it. It's because I really value your opinion as a filmmaker, and I feel like that's a big part of what you do.

[Theodore Shapiro]

You know, the way that we work on this show, where I feel like I'm talking, you know, Jeff and I do. We have this very close relationship, and I Feel like I'm in constant conversation with Jeff, and then it's always understood that you are in conversation with Jeff. And so I feel like the three of us are just sort of making the show in post together in a really interactive and creative way. And, you know, it's not always like that with every project. Like, sometimes you're brought in at the end and, you know, the film's already edited, and, you know, they just sort of want you to put your music on top of it, and you just. And sometimes that's just the way their process works. But it's just such a joy to do it this way and to sort of have the music live in the show from the beginning like this.

[Ben Stiller]

And you've written so, so much music for the show, and you wrote so much music ahead of time. But then when we get to the editorial process with a specific episode, you know, we'll lay in music that you've written ahead of time. But then there'll always, you know, be that sort of crafting of like, oh, no, this actually needs a new cue, or this needs a new idea here. And that's a big part. And that, you know, goes to episode four, you know, episode 204, where obviously this story is in a whole new environment. And that required you to come up with a new theme, just a completely new theme. And I think you did that ahead of time, too, the same way you did it for season one, but for this specific episode. Right?

[Theodore Shapiro]

Well, I mean, that was one of the first things that you ever told me about season two was about this episode. And so I feel like from the time that I started writing themes for season two, I was really focused on on this episode in particular and finding sounds. But truthfully, like Ben, I should say that the thing with 204 was that this was the episode where I feel like we worked the hardest to find the tone of anything in both seasons. And a lot of those things that I did in advance ended up being part of the episode. But there was, you know, we were working at it for a while.

[Adam Scott]

And what was it about this episode that was a bit tricky for you guys to zero in on that particular tone?

[Ben Stiller]

Well, this is, you know, the episode where they go, it's like the Lumens version of a corporate retreat, but it's in freezing wasteland where, you know, it's called an orkbo, where Milchick is putting them out in the elements. And I always wanted the episode to be very visual and to be not a lot of dialogue at Least the way it ended up in the first part of the episode has very little dialogue and to be stark and, you know, kind of otherworldly. So, yeah, that was the idea behind it. And, you know, just from the very beginning of the episode where we find Irving on the lake and then he, you know, hears Mark's voice and follows his voice and he meets Heli on the way up. And they end up on top of this cliff overlooking this big lake. And there's this monitor there with a message from Milchick. You know, it just was surreal. We wanted it to be surreal and eerie and weird. Actually, you know what? Why don't we take a listen to the Milchick video music that you wrote? Oh, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Like the retro. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

That is actually the theme that you wrote.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

That Patricia sings in season one.

[Theodore Shapiro]

That's right, exactly. The Cure hymn.

[Ben Stiller]

The Cure hymn from season one.

[Theodore Shapiro]

But the Muzak version.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

And I remember, Ben, you just kept saying, like, can you make it shittier?

[Ben Stiller]

That's exactly right. You kept on coming back. I was like, this has to sound more like really bad Muzak.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, it sounds like almost like a grade below Muzak. You would actually say it is a.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Grade below Musak in an elevator.

[Ben Stiller]

That's right.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yes.

[Adam Scott]

Guy quickly doing something for this video.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Exactly.

[Adam Scott]

All right, it's time for us to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Looking for a beautiful getaway this winter, have you considered checking out the town of Keir? Because in Kir, there's no shortage of things to do. You could try Mrs. Selvig's famous chamomile cookies, Check out a book reading by the visionary author Rickon Hale, or attend an underground punk rock concert. Whatever you're interested in, you can find it in Kier. It might be daunting to go on a trip all on your own, but in Kier, you're never truly alone. And you're never alone with insurance either. Because when it comes to getting your own insurance plan, State Farm is right there with you getting severed from your parents. Insurance doesn't have to be scary when you have State. When you work with a State Farm agent to get off your parents policy, someone is there to help explain the insurance process and help you choose what fits for you. Whether you prefer in person, over the phone, on statefarm.com or through the app, your agent is there to help. So if it's time to get off your parents insurance and get into your own, go to statefarm.com severance to find out how State Farm can help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Margo Gray]

College holds a mythic place in American culture. It's often considered the best four years of your life and hailed as a beacon of integrity and excellence. But beyond the polished campus tours, there are stories you won't find in the admissions pamphlets.

[Ben Stiller]

The higher ups are concerned about one.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Thing, and that is avoiding scandal.

[Margo Gray]

It's no wonder that college campuses capture the nation's attention, especially in moments of upheaval. I'm Margo Gray. Each week on the Campus Files podcast, we bring you a new story.

[Adam Scott]

It was the biggest academic scandal in the history of college sports and probably in the history of academia.

[Margo Gray]

On Campus Files we cover everything from rigged admissions to the drama of Greek life.

[Adam Scott]

A chancellor having a pornographic double life is an extremely rare case.

[Margo Gray]

Listen to and follow Campus Files, an Odyse Original podcast, available now on the free Odysee app and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Adam Scott]

If Lumen was using our partner ZipRecruiter to help hire for various roles, they would love how ZipRecruiter allows them to search resumes quickly via keywords like goat wrangler. Talk to qualified refiners the very next day and enhance their job post with selling points like Amazing Work Life Balance. If you're a business owner who needs to hire, ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more, and they're designed to make hiring faster and easier. See for yourself when you try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com severance ZipRecruiter excels at speed. Its smart technology starts showing your job to qualified candidates candidates immediately. And if you've got your eye on an exceptional candidate, you can use ZipRecruiter's invite to apply message to personally reach out to them. Plus, ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2. See how much faster and easier hiring can be with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. It's better than a waffle party. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com severance right now to try it for free. That's ZipRecruiter.com S E V E R A N C E.

[Ben Stiller]

So Teddy, the theme that you ended up with for the episode was also sort of mirrored in the theremin tune, right?

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yes. Well, that was a real breakthrough. I mean, you know, it's interesting because like I remember I Sent you Two versions of Ms. Huang's Theremin music. And one was just kind of like spooky. Theremin sounds like not real. You know, not really a tune. And then the other one was this tune that was. It was sort of like a cousin to the Keir hymns. You were like, that's what we want to move towards. Like, you. You had your finger on it, and that's our.

[Ben Stiller]

That's our collaboration. Teddy writes something brilliant, and I go, that's great.

[Adam Scott]

So wait a second, Wait a second. So the theremin music that Sarah Bach is playing, that Ms. Wong is playing, is that same Keir hymn? Cause I didn't even recognize it as.

[Theodore Shapiro]

No, no, no, it's not. But what it unlocked for me was, oh, yeah, there's this whole body of Kier music. It's like Kier folk tunes.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Theodore Shapiro]

And when I wrote that and Ben responded to it, I was like, oh, right, there's like, there's a world of Kier folk music.

[Adam Scott]

Like it sits next to the Kier hymn. Exactly. Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Scott]

Now, had you played a theremin before? Have you had a lot of experience with one?

[Theodore Shapiro]

So I'm going to admit that, no, I don't play a theremin, but I have this instrument called an and Martineau that's like an early electronic instrument that sounds like a theremin, and I'm not very good at playing it. It's a little harder than it looks to do it.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, is it a keyboard instrument?

[Theodore Shapiro]

So it's a keyboard instrument, but it has this wire that you kind of slide from right to left along the keyboard. And so, like, if you slide it up to a C, then it'll play a C. With your left hand, you press one button that says how loud or soft it is. And then with your right hand, you do the pitch with this. Your fingers in a little. Is a little ring, and you move it up and down, and that determines the pitch.

[Adam Scott]

Sounds super easy.

[Ben Stiller]

Sounds like you're making it up as you go along, actually.

[Adam Scott]

I don't believe you.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And it sounds like a theremin, essentially.

[Theodore Shapiro]

It sounds like a theremin. And because I'm not that good at it, it was like. It seemed like it would work for Ms. Huang on the theremin, so. So, yeah, so that's. That's how I did it.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, the theremin is a fascinating instrument, and, you know, we could talk for hours about what a theremin is.

[Adam Scott]

Basically using the force to make music.

[Ben Stiller]

I don't even understand how it works. When you watch Ms. Wong play it in the episode. She's doing it. Right. What is she doing?

[Theodore Shapiro]

So a theremin is like the only instrument where you don't physically touch anything.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Theodore Shapiro]

You're. You're using your hand to block, I think, a wave, and that is creating the sound.

[Ben Stiller]

Incredible. Incredible.

[Theodore Shapiro]

I know. It's totally crazy.

[Ben Stiller]

And you know what else is amazing is that Sarah Bach learned how to play the theremin for the episode.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. You can tell she knows what she's doing. It looks perfect.

[Ben Stiller]

Incredible.

[Theodore Shapiro]

I mean, I was convinced.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. This young woman is just. She's such a good actress and so smart and so committed. And she went and learned how to play it. That's one of, I think, the more interesting scenes in the episode. And you then, I remember, scored. As Milchick's Tale gets darker and weirder, you went on to score it with the theremin to get even weirder and stranger as it gets, you know?

[Theodore Shapiro]

Exactly.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Let's take a listen to that scene.

[Mr. Milchick]

And he reached up to grasp at his hair, which was suddenly moss that tore easily from his bleeding scalp.

[Ben Stiller]

Good heavens.

[Mr. Milchick]

And as the pus from his eye thickened into SAP, I turned from my gargling brother and walked to the pool of the hollow where I knew the waterfall would drown out my brother's cries.

[Zack Cherry]

That's actually really smart.

[Mr. Milchick]

And it was here that I first encountered the temper wolf, a gaunt bride half the height of a natural woman.

[Ben Stiller]

I just have to say the theme that you did come up with, that theme which she's playing on the theremin, to me, that spooky, weird, kind of evocative melody is. It's so. Makes this episode in my mind, you know, because it puts you in this world, which, again, I just can't say enough how much the music is important in our show, you know, it's part of the world of the show. So.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. We're so lucky to. To have Teddy.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, man. And. Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Thank you. I mean, I. I have to say that there was a particular moment in the show where I thought to myself, this is. This might be the single best piece of footage that I've ever gotten to work on.

[Adam Scott]

Wow.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Which is during the. The sex scene between Mark and. And Helle. That shot with the red glow.

[Ben Stiller]

The wide shot. The wide shot of the red glow.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Of the two of them, where you just kind of see almost their weird animal silhouette.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, the wide shot. That's sort of like at the end of it, right?

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

[Ben Stiller]

And the cue that you did there is. It's so funny. Cause we've never talked about this. That it's, like, one of my favorite. Did I tell you this? That moment?

[Theodore Shapiro]

No, I think Jeff told me that you said that. That you were like. Cause I wrote a chord at the end of that that I really was happy about. And the director doesn't always love the thing that you write that you're really excited about. But in this case, I've heard, via Jeff, that Ben's like, that chord is my favorite moment of the sequel of the whole show.

[Ben Stiller]

And then what you're doing, too. Adam is good.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

[Ben Stiller]

Whatever. All right, well, you know, we've been asking fans to call in with questions. We have this hotline set up, so we got one about the music that we want you to help us dance. Okay.

[Adam Scott]

Okay.

[Ben Stiller]

Let's listen.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Hey, guys, this is Don calling from New York. I'm a big fan of your work. My question was, what was the influence behind the Praise Cure anthem that was sang to the crew at the end of season one? I was just wondering what. Behind that whole composition and where. What the backstory was with that. Thank you so much.

[Adam Scott]

Thank you, Don.

[Theodore Shapiro]

So he's asking about the Cure. Him.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

What I remember was at a certain point, I think that Aoife.

[Ben Stiller]

Aoife McArdle, who directed the episode.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Aoife McArdle. Yes. You know, she had identified. Well, the Cure hymn was written into the script, the lyrics, and I think that Aoife gave me a reference of something that she felt would be an interesting reference. And it was this lullaby that was in the movie Night of the Hunter. And so I listened to that, and I sat down at the piano and played and sang the Keira Hymn sort of as a lullaby. And then, you know. And then Patricia performed it as a punishment.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. It's so interesting because Patricia. The way Patricia interprets it is ominous. And like you said, it's a punishment. But the melody, and hearing it now in this episode and hearing it kind of travel in different versions, it is sort of lulling, and you can see it as being kind of like this soothing song that's kind of gone through the ages.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Theodore Shapiro]

And you actually hear that theme in the scene where Cobell is in front of her shrine to Kir in. Is it 105 or 106? And that's the score. So it has this sort of devotional quality there, and then.

[Adam Scott]

Devotional. Yes, that's the right word. Yeah. Anyway, I'm just so happy that we got to work together.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah, I know. It's great. And, Adam, you're so great on this show, and I'm so amazed by everything that you're doing.

[Adam Scott]

Thanks, Teddy.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, thanks, man. Thanks for joining us.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, thanks, Teddy.

[Ben Stiller]

All right. Yeah.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Thanks, guys.

[Adam Scott]

Okay. I'm so excited to dive into this episode with you because we shot it now a couple of years ago.

[Ben Stiller]

Isn't that crazy?

[Adam Scott]

It really has been a couple of.

[Ben Stiller]

Years since it was March of 2023.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Yep.

[Adam Scott]

Now the entire episode is with Inies, but it's out fucking side. Which is my favorite line, I think, from the season is Dylan's first line when he emerges.

[Ben Stiller]

He knew there was no ceiling. This is.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, but this is. This is insane. Is that what he said?

[Ben Stiller]

I don't know. Whatever he says.

[Adam Scott]

So we're all outside because it's part of a Lumen reform called the Ortbow, which stands for Outdoor Retreat and Team Building Occurrence. Let's listen to Milchick telling the Innies about it on a DVD.

[Mr. Milchick]

Good morning, refiners. This is Mr. Milchick from work, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to your first ever outdoor retreat and team building occurrence.

[Adam Scott]

He is so perfect.

[Ben Stiller]

I know.

[Mr. Milchick]

Is in response to your desire to.

[Adam Scott]

See perfect the outside world.

[Ben Stiller]

Mr. Milchick, from.

[Mr. Milchick]

With your Audi's blessings, you will spend the next two calendar days walking the meadows, thickets, brambles, and brooks that make up the Dieter Egan National Forest.

[Zack Cherry]

Who the fuck is Dieter Egan?

[Mr. Milchick]

Dieter Egan. Some of you may be quietly yearning to learn more. The truth you seek lies within the fourth appendix.

[Ben Stiller]

Wow.

[Adam Scott]

So, okay, this episode is a complete departure from the Innies world, but also the world of the series entirely. Do you want to just talk about where it came from and why you wanted to do this?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, I think it was one of the original ideas for season two was we knew we wanted to do a corporate retreat of some type.

[Adam Scott]

Yep.

[Ben Stiller]

And what would that be? So it was really, you know, trying to figure out what the reason would be for that, which felt like it really made sense in terms of Milchick trying to maybe do something. You know, I think it's, you know, probably a good question that I don't know if there is one answer for it or not. In terms of what his motivation. I think on the one hand, you know, you see that there's some element of compassion that he has for the Innies, but, you know, this retreat is not really a fun experience for them. It's meant to, I think, on another level, like kind of basically say, okay, you guys wanted to go see the outside World.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Well, here you go.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And it's not so easy, and it's not so nice.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, how it's organized, what he's doing, the okays that he has from his superiors, and all that we don't really know about.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

But it was an opportunity just to, you know, really dig into the weird mind games that Lumen plays with the Innies. And, you know, what, you know, we talk about sometimes, like, you know, the choices that you guys have to make in terms of, like, what's the first thing I'm experiencing? Like, oh, I'm buttoning my shirt for the first time. You know, I've never done that before, and it's not always appropriate to do that in an episode, but this was an opportunity for you guys to really take in the outside world in a way you'd never done before. And just as a production, you know, to go off and make this episode was. It was like we were making a little movie.

[Adam Scott]

It really was. And, you know, watching the episode again last night, I was, like, realizing just how expansive it is. And we were out there. We were out there in the elements for, what, five weeks? Something like that.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I mean, we talked about how we were gonna make this episode. We, you know, we're not the kind of show that does that kind of visual effects. Not where we do something, you know, with green screen or. So we knew we wanted to go to real location. At first we started thinking about, you know, we knew snow was really important. And, of course, like, in our world with climate change and, you know, finding snow is a really hard thing to do. Even in the winter, you can't depend.

[Adam Scott]

On any location at any particular point in the year.

[Ben Stiller]

Right. And we're based in New York with the production, and it's hard to go very far away. We talked at one point about going maybe going to Colorado or going to Canada. Canada. And we realized that was. Wasn't really feasible, but the Catskills were close by. We shoot a lot of our exteriors in upstate New York in a town called Kingston. And this was a little bit further west and out there more. But we have a great location manager named Ryan Smith. And Ryan went out and started searching around, and we found this. The biggest centerpiece for the episode is the waterfall.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Mr. Milchick]

Kir's twin was always with him. That's why we provided the very same for each of you.

[Adam Scott]

Fuck you all.

[Zack Cherry]

I was right.

[Ben Stiller]

Mr. Milchek.

[Mr. Milchick]

This is the tallest waterfall on the planet. You have followed the path of Kier and Dieter and reached Woes Hollow. You stand upon sacred earth.

[Ben Stiller]

We're starving, Mr. Milchek, are you.

[Mr. Milchick]

I thought the waterfall's grandeur would satiate you. I'm teasing, of course.

[Ben Stiller]

So finding this waterfall was sort of the key. And Ryan found Awosting Falls, which is near Lake Minnewaska. And Lake Minnewaska was where that lake is.

[Adam Scott]

But that was the other part of it, too, is the frozen lake, the cliff above it, I mean.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, this was also, like. It was written originally that you guys were in a clearing.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

And then all of a sudden, they hear you, and you kind of come out of the woods or something.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

And, you know, we thought, this is something we could really find, something that's a little bit more dramatic. And we found this lake that has this cliff over it. And we thought, well, wouldn't it be cool if Mark is standing up on top of the cliff and Irving is in the middle of the lake?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Which we really. I was really up on that cliff. He was out in the middle of the frozen lake, and we were actually screaming to each other.

[Theodore Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. That was fun to do. Look, the whole episode was so dependent on weather, too. We got so lucky.

[Adam Scott]

I remember it was touch and go for a while. And then right before our shooting dates, right before moving up there, there was a big storm. Am I right?

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. There was a storm that, like, for the four weeks that we were shoot, basically we needed snow. And a storm happened. And it only happened, like, at the altitude. The snow was at the altitude that we were shooting at. But everybody kind of moved up to the Catskills for a while, and we were staying in hotels around there. We were based in Accord. We had a really fun roller skating wrap party that was really fun at a place called Skate Time in Accord, New York. Do you know Bjorn Corn, the popcorn?

[Adam Scott]

That's where I discovered it, and I eat it to this day.

[Ben Stiller]

So that skate rink is owned by Bjorn of Bjorn Korn and Stephanie.

[Adam Scott]

I love Bjorn Korn.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And they hosted us, and we had. I mean, we had a really good time. There were. I mean, it was a huge production in terms of, like, you know, having to get up to where the campsite was. Was. You know, you had to take these, like, snowcats or, you know, other, like, kind of vehicles to get up there, especially when the weather hit.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, yeah. I mean, just for the actors to get to set. And this means that everything else was 18 times more difficult. Just for the actors. We would drive from where we were staying for a while, and then arrive at the base of the mountain, get out of the car and get onto a snowcat because there were no actual roads going up to where we were shooting. Ride in the snowcat, up to the top of the mountain where we had our base camp, which was just a series of tents with heaters in them. And that is where we were all day. And we would go venture off and shoot from there, sometimes needing to hike for 45 minutes or something to get to where we were shooting.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, Scissor Cave was a real hike. There was no way to reach that little cave except to hike at least. Yeah, it was like about 30 minutes. But our camera crew had to literally carry those heavy cameras and camera cases. It was an ordeal. It was an ordeal. And the weather was constantly changing when we were filming the episode too. And the other big centerpiece of the episode is Irving's dream. Yeah, the cliff where we find you in the beginning and where you have the scene with Milchick. And then you see the shadow off on the cliff, you know, the sort of faceless version of you that was at a place called Sam's Point and in this Peterskill area, which was a little bit away from Lake Minnewaska. This is the Shawangunk Mountains. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful place.

[Adam Scott]

Really gorgeous.

[Ben Stiller]

And we had to shoot that dream sequence. Basically, we had to switch our schedule around because one morning we came into work and it was really foggy and snow had fallen. And it was so foggy that if we had shot that scene of you guys on the cliff with the tv, you wouldn't have seen any of that vista. So Jessica, our cinematographer, made the call to say, like, let's go shoot the dream. And so we went over to this sort of burned out forest area that was at altitude, that was near that cliff. And it was foggy and eerie. And what you see when Irving walks to the, you know, the cubicle in the middle. We brought the cubicle out to the middle of this charred out forest. And that's not a set, that's not visual effects. That's all real, real fog.

[Adam Scott]

That was because I wasn't there. But you told me about it when you guys got back and looking at the dailies, it looks like it was designed and it looks like special effect. Like, you never could have asked for better fog placement, for better colors. I mean, it is beautiful and it was all naturally occurring.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, we were so lucky. We were just so lucky with the elements and the ability that we had as a Crew to kind of like change our plan and just go do that made all the difference. And then we shot in this sort of this Blueberry field where you guys were walking through. Where Irving's reading from the Kier book, the Fourth Appendix.

[Adam Scott]

And it was difficult to walk because we had these boots. We need to talk about the wardrobe. But we had these boots that also had crampons attached to them that were made for walking on slippery ice. They're basically like almost like straight claws that lift you an extra, like 5 inches off the ground. But walking through deep snow and or blueberry bushes made lifting our feet up and down exhausting. And we were all drenched in sweat by the time we made it across those fields.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, Sarah Edwards, our costume designer, just did incredible work where that was the other thing. We knew all we were gonna have were you guys out there and the snow. So what are the costumes gonna be? What would they put. What would Lumen put you in? And I think Dan had this idea that it would be something that would feel like it was from like a hundred years ago. And she came up with just the most beautiful costumes. These black coats, these black fur hats.

[Adam Scott]

And everything down to the undergarments were period, were from a particular time. It felt like Revenant era.

[Ben Stiller]

And it was just really, you know, that choice was really important. Cause we knew we were gonna sort of live with that for the whole episode.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And also the color of the wardrobe that everyone had, it's particularly beautiful and particularly stark when up against the snow. It's really, really just incredible to look at these four figures moving across the landscape.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I remember we shot tests of you guys in that. And I remember Milchick's outfit, which is white and kind of.

[Adam Scott]

Yep. And Ms. Wong as well.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, Ms. Wong too. And there's like a Jeremiah Johnson vibe going on there.

[Adam Scott]

They look like they're in the Empire Strikes Back and we look like we're in Jeremiah Johnson, Right?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. All right, let's take a break and we'll come back and talk a little bit more about some of the plot stuff that's going on in this episode. The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind erasing elevator to work every day. So your workplace productivity can be much simpler. With Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed a space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. So goodbye severed workplace alienation. Hello teamwork with Confluence. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn [e-mail] confluence that's a t l a s s I a n.com c o n Fluence if you have health insurance, you might be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket. Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from real patients, you know you're in good hands. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com all right, so a lot of different things going on in this episode. The big thing, of course, is that since episode one, Irving has been suspicious that Heli is not telling the truth about what went on with her when she had her Audi activated.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, something about it just hasn't sat right with him since that first episode when they all got back.

[Ben Stiller]

So you guys are trudging through the snow and he's suspicious and he's asking about the Nightgardener comment.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, he's sort of starting to pick apart Heli's story a little bit. And to Mark, it just kind of is out of the blue and feels ridiculous. Like, what are you even talking about?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, and I think that's also probably because Mark is so into Helly at this point too, and not maybe wanting to see that.

[Adam Scott]

And thinking about Irving, and Irving being the one who started to pick up on something strange about Heli. I wonder if, because he's so heartbroken and he's so sort of emotionally raw and split open, if he's extra sensitive to the vibrations of everyone in the group or something, because he from the very start sees something very wrong but can't quite put his finger on it.

[Ben Stiller]

That's right. And you even see that in episode three a little bit too, when you guys go out to look for the goat people.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. She stops and comforts him and takes liberties that just feel a little off.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah. And then you're trudging through the snow, you Discover the dead seal, by the way, a moment in time when real snow came down from the heavens. Just for, like, three hours while we shot that scene. In three hours, all of that scene. Because we knew the snow was going.

[Adam Scott]

Away just real quick. I remember when we were shooting this with John and I and him asking me about the night Gardener. We were walking through a raw space where snow had fallen and no one had walked since the snow fell.

[Ben Stiller]

That's right.

[Adam Scott]

So you were extra excited because there was fresh sn for us to organically.

[Ben Stiller]

You were, like, on this little peninsula, in this little brook.

[Adam Scott]

Could have fallen into the creek at any moment, because who knew?

[Ben Stiller]

It was very delicate shooting that scene. But I remember being so excited that we were getting that snow and then the weird campfire. I mean, we could have a whole separate podcast about Milchick's crazy tale of the temper woe. That is just one of my favorite Tramiel moments in the series. But then Irving pushes Heli about, you know, what really went on. Just tell us about him.

[Adam Scott]

Who?

[Theodore Shapiro]

The night Gardener.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, Irv, come on.

[Ben Stiller]

Did he have a flashlight? What was he wearing?

[Zack Cherry]

What is your deal right now, dude?

[Ben Stiller]

What color was his shirt?

[Adam Scott]

He really kind of makes a spectacle of it. Really embarrasses her in front of everyone.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. Yes, he does. And then he goes off into the forest and has this weird dream. At the same time, this huge experience happens in the show, which is that you and Hel sleep together.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And as that's happening, Irving is having this dream where the temper woe shows up. And maybe for a second, I think you might see an image of, like, just the slightest image of Heli in her face. And then he wakes up knowing that he has to confront her and confronts her out by the waterfall.

[Adam Scott]

So it's almost like there have been some random puzzle pieces scattered in front of Irving now for a few episodes. And it's this dream that is abstract, but it's the dream that sort of puts them together. And he knows when he wakes up, he knows what's going on.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I think he's been trusting his instincts. More from these dreams that he's been having from season one, too. But let's take a listen to that scene. Mr. Milchick, come. Mark. Mr. Milchick. Mr. Milchick. Mark. Hey, turn on back. Mr. Milchick, what are you doing, man? Turn on back. Earth. What the fuck? She's an audi erving. Stop. She's been an outie the whole time, ever since she came back. Irving, you stop. No Stop it, Irving. Stop this. She's a fucking mole.

[Adam Scott]

What are you doing?

[Ben Stiller]

I'm gonna kill her. Mr. Milchick.

[Adam Scott]

The jig is up at this point.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, yeah. And this was. I mean, what a. You know, this was a scene that was a bear to shoot. I mean, you're, you know, you guys are up on a cliff. He had to attempt to drown Britt in this icy cold water.

[Adam Scott]

So cold.

[Ben Stiller]

There were so many aspects to shooting this scene to put it all together, but really, it's one of my favorite Irving, John Turturro moments in the series.

[Adam Scott]

It's beautiful. And do you want to talk about the closeup of Heli being dunked in the water, being shot later at our stages up on a platform, we had.

[Ben Stiller]

To create a tank, a little mini tank that we could put the camera under and have a camera person, a scuba diving camera person underneath so that they could see the closeup on Britt's face when she transitions and several transitions. But I have to say, John's reading of when he says she's a mole. Yeah, it's this, you know, aspect of Irving. It's just like this strong, dark, incredibly, you know, forceful version of Irving that we've never seen before. And that whole scene, as challenging as it was to shoot, just. It's the acting, I think, is just so great there where Milchick, you know, banishes him. And it's. I think it's pretty emotional.

[Adam Scott]

John is world class. And you see it here. He's a heavyweight.

[Ben Stiller]

He's one of the greats. And I love that when Zach is yelling out, you know, Cause he's like. You just hear the pain in his voice.

[Adam Scott]

That was emotional. I remember it being emotional on set, watching John walk away. I remember we were off camera just being there for Eyeline for John, but we were all weeping watching him turn around and walk away. It was really. Because also, you know, Irv, from the moment he smashes the EG in the book in season one, he has not only defined for himself what right and wrong is, but I think he's been a living definition of right and wrong for the rest of us. And him being excommunicated in that moment was heartbreaking.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Mr. Milchick]

Your workspace will be cleared and any personal I items discarded. Your file, including any and all professional interactions and personal relations, will be purged and destroyed. It will be as if you, Irving B, never even existed nor drew a single breath upon this earth. May Kier's mercy follow you into the eternal dark now.

[Ben Stiller]

And I Remember thinking about how Milchick could do this because we had discussions about, well, how is he gonna, you know, turn him off? How is he gonna. Are there gonna be security guards that come and drag him away? You know, what's gonna happen? And we came to the conclus. Irving is probably accepting this, and the strength of the mind control that Milchick has and they have over these innies is so strong. But I think ultimately there's something in Irving that accepts his fate. And maybe on some level, the love sickness for Burt or something in there, he has to somehow. And watching John come to that realization is pretty amazing.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I think the moment he. He makes the decision to out her as who she is, he knows he's done for, and he's doing it for his brethren there, his compadres.

[Ben Stiller]

Right. But he does tell Dylan to hang in there.

[Adam Scott]

Yep.

[Ben Stiller]

All right, before we go, it's time to check in with our telepathic friend Zack Cherry, to find out what he thinks.

[Adam Scott]

The octopus of us all, the octopus.

[Ben Stiller]

That is, is Zack Cherry. What he knows deep in his heart will happen in episode five. Let's hear.

[Zack Cherry]

Hello again. It's Zach here. You know what time of the episode it is? This is your favorite part of the episode. The feedback has been coming in, and people are saying they skip right to this part. Sorry, Ben and Adam, but it's what I've heard. Anyway, you know what's coming Next time on Severance. You know, we've seen the Innies have one field trip, and now I think it's time to see them have another. They're gonna go to the mall and watch a movie. Wow, their first movie. That's exciting. What was your first movie? Call in and tell Ben and Adam. What is the first movie you ever watched? For me, it was the movie Meet Parents starring my friend Ben Stiller. I watched. That was the first movie I ever saw when I was 20 years old.

[Adam Scott]

Okay. All right. Wait a minute. You know what? Wait a minute. So much of that just doesn't add up.

[Ben Stiller]

His first movie at 20?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, his first movie was at 20.

[Ben Stiller]

He's just trying to get to me.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, he is. He's trying to make us feel old.

[Ben Stiller]

It's not gonna work, Zach. All right, I'm sure your first movie was probably like Madagascar or something like that.

[Adam Scott]

Exactly. Something else Ben Stiller created or is a part of.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, right. It's nice, isn't it nice to be at that point in your career where people come up and say, I grew up watching it.

[Adam Scott]

Happened to me in front of you. I saw you and you were so happy that I experienced that.

[Ben Stiller]

I was like, welcome to my world.

[Adam Scott]

It was someone that came up and said, I've been watching you since I was a little kid and you mean so much. Which was lovely. And so kind of them to come up and say. But it strikes a particular chord when someone says. Cause you know when you're out acting in front of cameras, you were a grownup, which means you are now an old person.

[Ben Stiller]

It's also the person telling you, when you look at the person, you go, this person's like, maybe like almost middle aged.

[Adam Scott]

Exactly.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

That's the infuriating part.

[Ben Stiller]

And you're younger than I am. But I have come. I've been dealing with this for a while and I've come around to, like, appreciating it. Like, I don't even have any weirdness about it now when people. I really do appreciate it. Like, you know, no joking, but it was fun to watch you really experience it for the first time. And just like the pale kind of wash of.

[Adam Scott]

It's like, oh, my God, I didn't even know. It was apparent what I was going through. But then I just turned my head.

[Ben Stiller]

And you're like, yeah, See, Zach Cherry is 48, by the way.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, he's older than both of us.

[Ben Stiller]

All right, we did it. We did it, man.

[Adam Scott]

We did. We are done. And that is it for this episode. The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two, episode five.

[Ben Stiller]

And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple tv, with new episodes coming out every Friday.

[Adam Scott]

And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions and Great Scott Productions.

[Ben Stiller]

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Bari Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jen Weiss Berman and Leah Rees Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.

[Adam Scott]

Show clips are courtesy of fifth season music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff.

[Ben Stiller]

And the team at Red, John Lesher, Carolina Pesakov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Balderuten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Agar.

[Adam Scott]

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith.

[Ben Stiller]

At Rise Management, we had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Ben Stiller.

[Adam Scott]

And I'm Adam Scott.

[Ben Stiller]

Thanks for listening.

[Adam Scott]

And how dare you, Mr. Milchick, for throwing out my marshmallows. I am a team player.