S2E5: Trojan's Horse (with Michael Chernus)

Summary

The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
Episode: S2E5: Trojan's Horse (with Michael Chernus)
Release Date: February 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Severance Podcast, hosts Ben Stiller and Adam Scott delve deep into Season 2, Episode 5 titled "Trojan's Horse." Joined by special guest Michael Chernus, who portrays the multifaceted character Rickon, the trio unpacks the intricate narratives, character developments, and thematic elements that continue to make Severance a standout series.

Guest Introduction: Michael Chernus as Rickon

Michael Chernus brings a nuanced portrayal of Rickon, blending humor with profound emotional depth. He discusses the balancing act required to maintain Rickon's eccentricity while grounding him in the show's more serious undertones.

Michael Chernus (07:11): "I think he's a representation of one subsect of the population... I'm interested to see who the anti Rickon is in this world."

Character Analysis: Rickon

Rickon serves as both a comedic relief and a window into the "Outie" world of Severance. Michael explores Rickon's role as a self-help guru whose writings, though genre-specific, contain genuine nuggets of truth. The conversation highlights Rickon's complexities, including his desire to be liked—a trait mirrored by Michael himself as an actor.

Michael Chernus (14:39): "I'm giving as much dimensionality to him as possible. I'm not considering him a joke, even if somebody else does."

Episode Plot Breakdown: "Trojan's Horse"

The episode centers around Rickon's moral dilemma involving his self-help book potentially being used as a tool for corporate propaganda by Lumen. This internal conflict is juxtaposed with the fallout from previous episodes, including the return of Helena and the bereavement ceremony for Irving.

Ben Stiller (24:32): "Lumen hurts people. You know that. And if you want to water down your work so they can use it for their fucking propaganda, then you're hurting people too."

Key Scenes and Filmmaking Insights

Ben and Adam discuss pivotal scenes, such as the belated bereavement ceremony and the emotionally charged conversation between Rickon and Devin. Michael shares behind-the-scenes anecdotes, including the challenges of portraying Rickon's thorny relationships and the meticulous effort in filming scenes that seamlessly toggle between the "Innie" and "Outie" personas.

Michael Chernus (12:08): "The scene was such a dance between us... trying to keep it together and not be found out."

Character Relationships and Dynamics

The podcast delves into the evolving relationships between characters, notably the strained trust between Mark and Helly after revelations in earlier episodes. The hosts analyze how these dynamics influence the broader narrative, emphasizing themes of trust, betrayal, and reintegration.

Adam Scott (44:45): "She's like, what the fuck? I'm just like, no one... everybody's sort of off in their own world."

Themes and Moral Conundrums

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the moral implications of Rickon's choices and the overarching corporate manipulations by Lumen. The hosts and Michael dissect the philosophical questions posed by the episode, pondering the ethical boundaries of self-help in a controlled corporate environment.

Michael Chernus (24:26): "It's completely a moral decision... that wrestling with himself, I think is really interesting."

Predictions and Fan Engagement

Wrapping up the episode, Zach Cherry makes a humorous prediction about Rickon's future endeavors, suggesting he might enter a music competition. This segment not only entertains but also engages fans, encouraging them to participate by submitting their own predictions.

Zach Cherry (66:07): "Dylan's going to start taking voice lessons and will sound a little something like this. La la la la la."

Conclusion

Ben and Adam conclude the episode by reiterating the emotional depth and storytelling prowess of Severance. They reflect on the importance of grounding surreal narratives in genuine human emotions, ensuring the audience remains invested in Mark's journey amidst the show's intricate plot twists.

Adam Scott (63:05): "That was the most impactful part of that whole sequence was the fact that, oh, wait, this is gonna take an emotional toll on Mark."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Stiller (01:04): "In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year."
• Michael Chernus (07:37): "Jen is extraordinary. She's so smart, she's very funny, and yet everything comes off so grounded."
• Adam Scott (14:11): "And maybe that's a good thing, that people are kind of put off by him at first."

Final Thoughts

This episode offers listeners an in-depth exploration of Severance's latest developments, enriched by Michael Chernus's insights and the hosts' engaging analysis. Whether you're a die-hard fan or new to the series, this podcast episode provides valuable perspectives that enhance your understanding and appreciation of the show's complex narrative tapestry.

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Stay tuned for the next episode of The Severance Podcast, where Ben and Adam continue their journey through Season 2, Episode 6. Don't forget to rate and review the podcast on your favorite platform!

Transcript

[Ben Stiller]

This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by State Farm. Learn [e-mail] severance like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Adam.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah?

[Ben Stiller]

Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

[Adam Scott]

I don't know. I think it's.

[Ben Stiller]

It's okay. I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose confluence by Atlassian.

[Ben Stiller]

Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed a space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and. And deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

[Adam Scott]

So that would equal out, like, if we're playing with, like, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah, that's the improvement.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

[Adam Scott]

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

[Ben Stiller]

So why not keep your team unsevered in Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all set, knowledge free with Confluence. Learn [e-mail] confluence that's a T l a S S I-a n.com c o n f L-U-E-N c e hey, Adam.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Apparently a lot of people have been calling the hotline after watching episode four and had some pretty strong opinions about it.

[Adam Scott]

What?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, and they. They left some messages.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, can we listen to them?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. If you haven't watched episode four, you probably shouldn't listen to these voicemails, but for those of you who have, let's listen to a couple of them.

[Michael Chernis]

Get Ben Stiller on the phone.

[Ben Stiller]

We've got questions. Hi, I just watched the episode of the show Severance called Lois Hollow.

[Adam Scott]

How the could you end episode four like that? Oh, my God.

[Michael Chernis]

Just watch the episode.

[Ben Stiller]

Got some questions for you. First of all, what the fuck?

[Michael Chernis]

Hi, Ben and Adam. This is Sydney H. And I'm just calling to ask who gave you the audacity.

[Adam Scott]

Second of all, what the fuck?

[Ben Stiller]

I was Pretty sure that Helena was actually Helly.

[Michael Chernis]

So, yeah, I figured that out.

[Adam Scott]

I knew it.

[Michael Chernis]

I knew it.

[Ben Stiller]

But I can't figure out the next episode. Tell me.

[Michael Chernis]

I need to know what is happening.

[Adam Scott]

What?

[Michael Chernis]

How could you? I'm also way more mad than this.

[Adam Scott]

But I'm in an Airbnb right now.

[Ben Stiller]

And we're in quiet hours.

[Michael Chernis]

And thirdly, and probably most importantly, what the fuck? Great stuff.

[Ben Stiller]

Love the show. I hope Adam's having a good day.

[Adam Scott]

Praise Kier. That's great.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, I love the energy and the. Oh, yes. The what the fuckness of everybody's reactions.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. It's amazing to hear people reacting rather than, like, reading reactions, you know?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And obviously it's a lot of stuff that happens in the episode that's probably seems unexpected coming off of episode three in terms of the Helly. Helena.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Reveal, which, you know, a lot of people had very strong feelings about and different opinions and, you know, knowing that that was coming. It's great to see how invested people are, these characters, the way we are, you know, and totally been living with them for a long time. So. Yeah. What the fuck? What the fuck? Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott, and this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

[Adam Scott]

Today we're diving into the fifth episode of season two, which is titled Trojan's Horse. It was written by Megan Ritchie and directed by Sam Donovan.

[Ben Stiller]

And we have a really fun episode for everybody. Cause we have the honor and privilege of talking to. To the most inspiring writer in all of Kier, Rick and Hale himself, the man who plays him, Michael Chernis. It's gonna be great.

[Adam Scott]

So exciting. Michael is the very, very best. And after we talk to Michael, Ben and I will break down some of our other favorite scenes from the episode. And of course, we're gonna talk to Zach Cherry. We'll check in with him to see what he thinks will happen in next week's episode.

[Ben Stiller]

And okay, you should know the drill by this point, but in case you don't, here's the spoiler warning. We'll be talking in depth about episode five of season two of Severance. So if you haven't watched that yet, please go do that before you listen. It's gonna be spoilers all over the place.

[Adam Scott]

I mean, like I said before, we are going to dive into this episode. We're gonna go deep.

[Ben Stiller]

It's been so much fun to see how the people who watch the show are paying such close attention to it. I Mean, I know we've talked about this before, but it's crazy to me, the level of scrutiny that people are looking at scenes with and freezing the frame and looking at details. And I just wanna say I appreciate so much how much thought people put into the show. It's like there's no better feeling when you're working on something to see that people are really, you know, like, just digging in.

[Adam Scott]

And that shot in episode two, the shot of everyone going into the elevator, timed with episode one, like, that really worked and people found it. And I know how excited you and Sam were about that.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, it was literally maybe like an hour after the episode came out, somebody had put together a cut.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, is that right?

[Ben Stiller]

Both scenes? Yeah. And we had planned that out and Sam and I worked together, and Jeff Richman, our editor, we made sure that we edited it so that the timing worked. I'm just so relieved that it actually came out the way that we wanted to.

[Adam Scott]

I remember Sam had the Innie version on set while we were shooting the Audi version.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, we were there and we each were coordinating and, like, the episode's a beautiful looking episode. And I have to also shout out Susie Lavelle, who's our cinematographer on episode two. And just beautiful composition, beautiful lighting, and, you know, it's the first all Audi episode. So, Susie, it was definitely uncharted territory for us, right?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Just that scene in particular, see them at their lockers and stuff, that was really fun. But also, yes, getting to really dive into their outies is so fun. It's just fascinating getting to know them better. And speaking of people in the outside world, today we have with us our very own Michael Chernis, who plays Rickon.

[Ben Stiller]

Michael, first of all, thanks for standing by while we did all that just now on the Zoom. As a silent audience, what did you think of our intro and stuff?

[Michael Chernis]

Oh, my God, I thought it was really good. You guys sound very professional.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God, thank you so much. What a relief.

[Ben Stiller]

Cause I kept on checking your reaction as we were talking about stuff, and I felt like you were either moderately amused or just sort of tolerating.

[Adam Scott]

Me too. I thought he was super mad at us.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, well, I am, but that's about other stuff, not about the intro.

[Adam Scott]

All right.

[Michael Chernis]

No, I thought that sounded great. Congrats on this podcast. It's been so fun to follow along and listen at home.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, thanks, man.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like Rickon should have his own podcast about. About the show. What do you think?

[Michael Chernis]

I think he thinks he should have his own podcast for sure. I don't know that he should. Don't give that man a microphone.

[Adam Scott]

If there are podcasts in the severance world, I'll bet you anything Ricken has one.

[Michael Chernis]

I think he had one, but now he's post podcast.

[Adam Scott]

That's right. He's transcended analog.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, he's transcended podc.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, Rickon is such an important element in terms of obviously the humor of the show, but he's more than that too. You know, he's. I don't know, tonally to me, like, he kind of defines what the outie world is in a way. This sort of like very bespoke world that Dan created in terms of just. I'm thinking about like the first episode of season one, the non Dinner Dinner Party.

[Michael Chernis]

That's so nice to hear. I mean, first of all, it's an honor to be a part of this show. I mean, and that's not any kind of hyperbolic praise. Like, I think this show is incredible and I'm a fan of it first and foremost. And when you're speaking about Rickon being this window into the Audi world, I think what's so cool is I think he's a representation of one subsect of the population. You know, like he's. He is our way into like this sort of. Maybe more like erudite kind of group of people. But, you know, I'm interested to see in other seasons how even more of that world gets fleshed out, because I think Rickon and his literati friends are just one section of our universe. And I'm interested to see who the, like, anti Rickon is in this world.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, and Rickon is such a unique character in the outside world because in the outi world it tends to get smaller and more almost naturalistic, and it's just a slightly different, almost tone. But it just feel. It does feel like a separate world from the ini world, certainly. And Rickon is a character who. It's such a specific, finely tuned performance that you give because you could see this character being pushed way too far in one direction or the other and not quite working. But you're able to really ride this line between him being ridiculous sometimes, but still both feet being planted on the ground. Because you have to buy that he's a part of this sort of more grounded, naturalistic world out there. But he's also sort of has this larger than life Persona that he's really pushing out there. And he's married to this woman who's incredibly Grounded and holding them both down. Was there a balance there when you approach to the world?

[Michael Chernis]

Oh, completely. And I feel like it's a balance that we're always trying to calibrate every time that I'm on set. I mean, I think it's something Ben and I talked about a lot when I first came onto the show. And, yeah, I think it's a bit tricky because he is sort of this larger than life character. And I think even within a tone that is very grounded, you have to allow for those. You know, I certainly know people. My background is in the theater, originally in New York City. And I know people who are very sort of big and almost foppish or clownish in their life and have a love and a facility for language and often sound a little affected. And, you know, I think in a great way, one thing he does is he maybe helps open up that Audi world. Like, you believe that he exists in that world, but he isn't like everybody else. And he marches to the beat of his own drum. And that's. That's cool. We all have people in our lives who are a little odd or a little eccentric or a little annoying sometimes, but we love them. And, yeah, I think one of the things that's hard for me with him is, you know, fighting the actor's impulse to want to be liked. And I think that's an impulse that Rickon has too. But, you know, knowing that there are some people out there are gonna be like, ugh, Rickon and his friends are so annoying. And having to remember, like, well, maybe that's a good thing, that people are kind of put off by him at first. And then eventually the onion starts and you start to discover, oh, there's more to him than that, or he has sensitivity, he has vulnerability. And so continuing to discover those ways in for the audience to see a different side of him is really what's been a fun challenge.

[Adam Scott]

It's just fascinating. And there's nothing that makes me laugh harder whenever we're working than Rickon. But also, it's just so fascinating whenever we get that peek behind his sort of grandiosity, like in the finale of season one, where Eniemark and Rickon have that moment outside where Rickon is kind of like, I know you think I'm a fool. And you kind of see his humanity, certainly. But you also see shades of these two guys that have known each other for a long time and maybe shift or change they've kind of gone through together. It really is an incredible performance. The Fact that you're able to do so many things at once.

[Michael Chernis]

Well, right back at you. I mean, I remember that night that we shot was such a dance between us. Cause we're holding so much. You had so much going on of like, any mark meeting his idol. But all the other circumstances of the larger scene in that moment. And trying to keep it together and not be found out. And so you had all that going on. And then I had all the stuff that Rickon's going through going on. And so I think I love that scene so much. And it's such a simple scene. But there's so much packed into it. I think that speaks to the tone of this show so precisely. Of trusting the audience. That the audience is smart. And that they're gonna be watching and listening and knowing all that nuance. That we don't have to play everything at once. Right. You know, there may be all of this stuff happening. But you as an actor can't do all those things. You just have to be there and sort of listen and play the scene with your partner.

[Ben Stiller]

Maybe that idea, though, that Rickon wants to be liked as an actor. I want to be liked. You know, you're right. Like that instinct. Right. When you play a part, it's like you don't want people to think you're an asshole. Even if you're playing a character that sometimes can be like that. And maybe that in a way works for you, too. Like you're wanting people to like Rickon is also kind of what Rickon wants, too.

[Michael Chernis]

That's a gift of the character. Yeah. Is that those two things match. I mean, I think for me, one of the things is I've been in this business for a minute now is just a constant meditation on trying to let go of what the audience is going to think. There are millions of people who will see it. There'll be various responses to Rickon. And so I can't control that. But what I can control is that I'm giving as much dimensionality to him as possible. That I'm not considering him a joke, even if somebody else does.

[Ben Stiller]

And by the way, that allows for the interpretation. For an audience to see different aspects of the character. And it comes down to also a really important part of the show. Which is, why is Devon with Rickon? Because we see a lot of the time not the intimate, positive interaction between Devon and Rickon that must be there. That is the basis of their marriage.

[Michael Chernis]

We see he's a generous, attentive lover.

[Ben Stiller]

Is he? Well, that's what I was gonna ask you, what is it that Devon loves in Rickon that we don't see?

[Michael Chernis]

You know, I can't speak to what for sheep.

[Ben Stiller]

Because they're an interesting couple.

[Michael Chernis]

They are an interesting couple. But that is one thing that surprises me. When I see people on Reddit or whatever say, why are they together? I'm like, have you seen couples ever in the world, opposites attract?

[Ben Stiller]

Yep, totally.

[Michael Chernis]

There's so many people in my life that I'm like, how are they together? And it's like, well, you don't know what happens behind closed doors. And I don't even mean that like, in terms of romantically. It's just like, it's a mystery why people fall in love with each other. It's one of the great mysteries of the human race. Why are you drawn to someone?

[Ben Stiller]

And that in a way, makes it even a more interesting and believable couple to me.

[Michael Chernis]

Me too. And I think, you know, he brings a lot of different things to the table that she doesn't possess and vice versa. You know, I think she grounds him and he helps her, like, discover the more artistic, spontaneous, improvisational side. And, you know, it's also that we might be just meeting them in a hard moment.

[Adam Scott]

That's right.

[Michael Chernis]

You know, long term relationships, there are ups and downs, there are rifts, there are separations. Like in any given, there are a thousand different coming togethers and retreatings that happen. And we just see small windows into their life together.

[Adam Scott]

I remember early on having conversations with us here and then Dan and Jen as well, talking about the foursome of these two couples. And when Gemma passed away, it was kind of this schism, it was this change, there's this kind of dividing line. And Mark certainly went in his direction and Devan went to maybe take care of Mark, and Rickon had his own reaction. And the relationship between Mark and Rickon at one point was probably different than we see it in the show.

[Michael Chernis]

I mean, I certainly think so. I think it was very different. And that's, you know, when there is loss, when there is a great loss like that, like a family member, there's the immediate impact, but then there are all those ripple effects, right? And I mean, you know, when someone starts to have success and we can talk about exactly how successful or not Rick is, but when in their own mind, they start to become famous or whatever, what that does to if, in my opinion, I feel like you're not reading my books and you're not taking my art seriously and you're like, the pain that that causes for me. And I'm sure we can all speak to like when you start to have more notoriety, what that does to relationships. Relationships, yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. I also think in Rickon's work life balance, it probably went into his writing completely and found some sort of comfort there. Probably. I think, you know, Rickon as a writer, he is kind of in love with his own words. And I mean, what do you think of him as a writer? Because I feel like he is successful on some level in this world and yet he also probably inflates his own success in his head.

[Michael Chernis]

Oh, it's such a tough thing. You know, I don't think he's a great writer. I think he's a genre writer. Right. He's in this within the realm of sort of a philosophical self help book. He's good at doing that genre. And I think there is a lot of truth to some of his little sayings, but it certainly is not a rigorous craft for him. I feel like the writing can be a little stream of consciousness. It is certainly true to who he is, which is a compliment, like your getting the full Rickon. But yeah, I think it's why on some level it appeals to the Innies is there is if you're this sort of pure, unjaded, uncynical, kind of almost childlike mind, he's saying these things that have a nugget of truth in them, but it's just all the trappings of the sort of pretension and the self importance that go around it.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I feel like you and Dan have this special, like you're a great mouthpiece for this certain side of Dan and I know how much he loves writing Rickon stuff. And you're the perfect sort of cipher for all of that. Like you saying the hamburger waiter line and stuff like that. It's just. It's that belly laugh that feels so good. I love it so much. And Rickon really just gets me every time.

[Michael Chernis]

I mean, I love him so much and I know Dan does too. I just. For better or for worse, I feel like I get him and I really. I really care about him. But I think at the same time that's. I can also honestly make fun of him. I mean, he's. He's ridiculous.

[Ben Stiller]

Can I ask, how are things going with Balfe?

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, Balfe is a disappointment. I thought he was like raw clay that I could mold. And he's more just the clay is dried.

[Adam Scott]

Too much of his own guy.

[Michael Chernis]

Well, yeah, I just have to explain everything.

[Ben Stiller]

How many balfs have preceded balfe.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, he's balf12.

[Ben Stiller]

Okay. Rickon goes through assistance, right?

[Adam Scott]

You just name them all Balf.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, they're all just Balf. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, let's take a quick break and catch up on Rickon's latest version of the uur and when we come back we'll talk all about it.

[Ben Stiller]

The conversation about Rickon and his many balfs got me thinking that even a self help guru needs some help sometimes. That's why he's gone through at least 12 valves. Someone as great as Rickon still needs help keeping his life organized and his neti pot warm. He isn't perfect. That's okay. Being an amazing self help writer is about being the you you are, not the you you could or should be. We all could use a little help sometimes. And getting help with insurance has never been simpler with State Farm. If you're about to get severed from your parents insurance, you don't have to do it alone. They've got your back. What Balf is to Rickon, State Farm can be to you. Your State Farm agent is here to help support you when it's time to get your own policy. And if things get complicated, State Farm gives you lots of ways to get help too. Whether you prefer in person, over the phone, on statefarm.com or through the app, your agent is there to help. So if it's time to get off your parents insurance and into your own, go to statefarm.com severance to find out how State Farm can help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Whether you're a true crime junkie or.

[Michael Chernis]

Just getting into it, you're gonna love.

[Ben Stiller]

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[Adam Scott]

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[Michael Chernis]

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[Adam Scott]

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[Michael Chernis]

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[Adam Scott]

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[Michael Chernis]

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[Ben Stiller]

Find your personal [e-mail] that's usenourish.com exclus talking a little bit about Rickon's writing. In episode three, we see that Natalie shows up at your house, which to me is like a kind of a weird little chilling moment, that all of a sudden she's just there talking to you. And Devin discovers and she's kind of. You guys are kind of laughing together. And it's very clear that she's offering you a chance to do a version of the book for Innies. The U you are. And that sort of sets off this sort of trajectory here that we end up with in episode five in terms of Rickon kind of having to make some sort of a moral decision, I guess. Right. About what he does with the book. Babe, it's the literal opposite of what you were saying before.

[Michael Chernis]

Okay, I see how you'd feel that way. But one point that Nat made was, okay, she said that Innies tend to thrive in an environment of structure, and once that is established, then they are more open to self expansion. So I am just trying to speak their language.

[Ben Stiller]

I know, but this sounds like Lumen's language.

[Michael Chernis]

Well, it's a Trojan's horse. If I can get my ideas to severed workers all across the world, it might beget a revolution.

[Ben Stiller]

But these aren't your ideas. These are not your ideas. And also.

[Michael Chernis]

And what?

[Ben Stiller]

Okay, Lumen hurts people. You know that. And if you want to water down your work so they can use it for their fucking propaganda, then you're hurting people too. Okay.

[Michael Chernis]

It's completely a moral decision. And I think it's such a great piece of writing to introduce this idea because it helps the audience really enter into that conundrum of Rickon, like this ego side of being like, oh, that's enticing. That would get my work out to so many more people. If I'm a big deal in there and those workies really are fans, that's great. Being enticed by the fan base, but also this other part of him that knows that maybe this is a problematic decision, that wrestling with himself, I think is really interesting.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I think it's really interesting to see a little bit of the inner workings of the relationship with Devin there in that little sort of negotiation or moment or question where you basically put out to her that, hey, you want me to take this moral stance, but also, are you willing to give up the creature comforts that come along with the success that we have?

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah, I mean, I can relate to that. As a working actor, you have to make these decisions. I mean, not necessarily working for Lumen, but sometimes you're like, I have to take this money gig. I have to take this job. It's like I got offered this 24 episode police procedural or something and I have to go do it, honey. Oh, but it's not Shakespeare in the Park. Okay. Yeah, well, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

And these stances that were so easy to take before, suddenly when faced with the kind of reality of something, it gets a little fuzzier and more dicey.

[Michael Chernis]

Completely. And you know, I don't know to what extent Rickon really understands how big of a star he is in the any world, but this idea that he has this fan base, you know, like, yeah, what that does for him. Not just an opportunity to make money or to expand his reach, but just that there are finally people who really get him.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Any Mark. Any Mark is his biggest fan.

[Adam Scott]

Can I ask Jen Tolik, just the greatest. Can we ask what a gift about working with Jen?

[Michael Chernis]

Jen is the best. I mean, I loved Yalls episode with her. She's extraordinary. She really is a singular talent. You guys were talking on the podcast about how everything that comes out of her mouth just feels so real and I couldn't agree more. She's so smart, she's very funny, and yet everything comes off so grounded and so true to her. And yet it's a character. It's such a funny blend. Like Devin feels like Jen, but also feels like Devin, if that makes sense in the best way.

[Ben Stiller]

Did you guys talk before you started shooting the first time about your history? How do you approach being a believable married couple?

[Michael Chernis]

That's a great question. We didn't know each other beforehand. And if we remember, the first season was in the height of coke. So I think we met in the testing tent the first time. Like in hazmat suits, basically, you know, getting our COVID test to work and through our face shields, we're trying to discuss Rickon and Devin's.

[Adam Scott]

That was hard, man.

[Michael Chernis]

History. That was hard. But, you know, I know it's been said before, but it really, I think, added to that dystopian feel of the show. I mean, for me showing up and like, we couldn't, you know, Hug each other. And we could only take our masks off when the cameras were rolling and the poor crew was just like covered head to toe and strange futuristic gear. It just. For me, it added to the strange severancy vibe of the show.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, yeah, I mean, I do think just the casting somehow came together between you and Jen and Adam. Just it worked off the bat with you guys. And that also something you don't really know if you're directing something, making something. You have this idea like this seems like these people might be good together. And that one reading they did together seemed really good, but you don't really know if it's gonna gel and feel like something real. And it really did. That was something that is really a gift that these people are just falling into this and really instinctually understanding how to connect.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah. I mean I didn't know you, Adam and I didn't know Jen. And how do you create relationships when and they don't exist? It's a tough one. I think there's a lot of yes to anding that just happens. I mean, if you are an actor and an improviser, there's just kind of going with the vibe that's happening and not like kind of saying no to things, but just giving over to what Adam and Jen were doing. And then I would also credit you, Ben and Aoife a lot that first season of just allowing a lot of different takes of choices. I remember Ben, you would early on just be like, try one this way, now try one that way. Now try this. And just trusting that you guys were going to also edit some of that together because we didn't know the tone yet. I think we all had a guess, but especially with the Audi stuff, especially with Rick and Devin, like what is this world? How does this book party fit in with the rest of the vibe? Yeah, like I remember you, Ben, coming up with the bell ringing app line. It's still one of my favorite.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

Unring the bell ringing out.

[Michael Chernis]

Bell ringing up.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, I remember your. I mean, look, I laugh endlessly at the stuff you do and especially that scene. You're just being emotionally sort of just exhausted from putting yourself out there from the reading. And you really need to take a moment.

[Michael Chernis]

His voice is worn out.

[Ben Stiller]

He needs the knee pot. And then you did it said in the script that like what does it say? That your voice is something. You asked Balfour some the neti pot. Right. Cause you were throat.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

So you. So you as an actor had to create whatever this issue in your Throat that was going on before. And the weird warbling trill. It's like a trill. It's.

[Adam Scott]

It's so. Yeah.

[Michael Chernis]

He doesn't get raspy, he goes high.

[Ben Stiller]

It's so ridiculous. It makes me laugh so much.

[Michael Chernis]

All creatures, from the leaping cats to the towering shrew, think of themselves as you a logical center for the universe. Yet the cat eats the shrew. And we, like Schrodinger, live on to wonder what it means. But even that, we had to. I feel like we could all crack each other up all day long. Right. But like, the quest was, how do we make this funny? But be in severance still for sure it's not.

[Ben Stiller]

But I have to say off the bat, the first photo shoot that we did for the COVID of the U. You are. When I saw you doing these looks and this vibe of, you know, of this guy, it was so perfect to me. I was like, yeah, this is what it's going to be. This guy is going to be ridiculous and funny, but also you have to totally believe him. And that's the thing, right?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I remember when he was fun of it. We needed that prop. So you guys went and shot those photos before you had ever shot anything for the show. Michael. So I remember seeing the book and being like, oh, yeah, this is. This feels right. That's Rick.

[Michael Chernis]

I don't know if anyone had shot a frame. I think it was the camera test.

[Adam Scott]

You're probably right. And.

[Michael Chernis]

And I came in and yeah, I didn't know really who Rickon was. And we tried a bunch of different, like, hairdos. And I remember Ben being like, could he look like Leif Garrett?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And the uur. The book, it was actually written by Dan. He wrote a good portion of the book and it's actually available on Apple Books now. And you read it.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. There's an audiobook too, right?

[Michael Chernis]

There's an audiobook read by Rick and Hale.

[Ben Stiller]

Now, was Balfe there when you recorded to have the neti pot in case your throat.

[Adam Scott]

He had to be. I mean.

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah. Yeah. Balf13 was there actually rubbing my feet and my feet cramp when I read. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That was really fun and really hard.

[Adam Scott]

Like, really?

[Michael Chernis]

Yeah. I mean, joking aside, my voice was like a mess after those. I needed a balf.

[Adam Scott]

It's so funny.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I mean, it's really great.

[Michael Chernis]

It's so good. Dan is. Is just so smart and as we know, is just so invested in this world that literally every corner has been thought about. There are passages in what he wrote that Just blew me away. And I was reading a lot of it for the first time in the recording studio and just laughing out loud. I mean, it's. It's so good. And there's some passages that are really, actually affecting too, in it.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, that's the thing, because Rick and. Yeah, Rickon is not a joke. Rickon is. There's some real something there that we hold onto. I mean, we have to.

[Michael Chernis]

There is. And we learn some stuff about him in the audiobook. I won't give anything away, but there's some history and backstory that gets revealed that I think hopefully fleshes him out a little bit more for viewers.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And relates to the story that we're telling. So check it out. The uur.

[Adam Scott]

So, so fun. Michael, thank you so much for coming and doing the show. Oh, my gosh.

[Michael Chernis]

So much, so fun.

[Ben Stiller]

Thanks, man.

[Michael Chernis]

Thanks, guys.

[Adam Scott]

Ben, before we take a break, why don't we answer a question from the hotline? What do you say?

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. Let's do it.

[Adam Scott]

This hotline segment of the Severance podcast is sponsored by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence.

[Ben Stiller]

Hi, Severance employees.

[Adam Scott]

My name is Emma. I'm curious, why melon for the melon.

[Ben Stiller]

Party or incentive or whatever.

[Adam Scott]

Curious.

[Michael Chernis]

If you could have any other fruit.

[Adam Scott]

What would it be instead of that?

[Michael Chernis]

Because in my opinion, it's the worst fruit possible.

[Adam Scott]

Whoa, Emma. Melon. Catching some strays.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. What's your issue with melon, Emma? I mean, if you're talking about the egg bar, for me, the egg bar is not coveted as fuck. It's actually my least favorite thing in the world is a hard boiled egg or what we had in that scene, which. The scotch eggs. You know, at the time we were wearing PPE for Covid. And I was really grateful because it just. I stayed as far away as possible from those.

[Adam Scott]

What would happen to you if you were forced to eat a scotch egg?

[Ben Stiller]

I would probably throw up. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

Okay.

[Ben Stiller]

How about you? What would happen?

[Adam Scott]

I would enjoy it. I enjoy eggs.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

See, now I know what Emma feels like with melons.

[Adam Scott]

You know, I remember also Zach and Britt were vegans, so they couldn't eat eggs. So didn't you guys have to find someone who made vegan replicas of eggs?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Which was better than real eggs. So I was grateful for that. I love melon. I don't love all melon. I like cantaloupe as my favorite melon honeydew. I don't care for as much.

[Adam Scott]

Of course you do.

[Ben Stiller]

You love cantaloupe. But I do enjoy how Zach does his little toothpick search for which melon balls. Melon balls are definitely not my thing at all.

[Adam Scott]

I enjoy cantaloupe cut into like circular shapes.

[Ben Stiller]

You do? I don't like the little scooper because it makes me think, well, that's like ice cream. It's like a mini ice cream scoop. But then it's like, oh, but it's not ice cream, it's melon. I want ice cream.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, well, I guess that's it.

[Ben Stiller]

That's now my thinking on it.

[Adam Scott]

All right, it's time for us to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

[Ben Stiller]

The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency. But luckily you don't have to take a mind erasing elevator to work every day. So your Workplace productivity can be much simpler with Confluence by Atlassian Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed a space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence teams, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. So goodbye severed workplace alienation. Hello teamwork with Confluence. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian.com confluence that's a T L a-s s I-a n.com C-O-N-Flash n c the Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. This is a message from sponsor Intuit.

[Michael Chernis]

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[Ben Stiller]

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[Michael Chernis]

Get an expert [e-mail], only available with TurboTax Live full service. Seek guaranteed [e-mail] guarantees.

[Adam Scott]

Okay, it's time for us to dive into the rest of the episode, where we see the fallout from last episode's somewhat disastrous ortbo, starting with Heli Helena back at Lumen mdr. Helena is not happy about having to go back down there. Let's listen to the scene where Mr. Drummond basically tells Helena that she has to make this sacrifice for Lumen.

[Ben Stiller]

My any who tried to kill me and then the other one tried to kill me. They're fucking animals. I'll just fake it again. We can't take that chance. We need to clean this up. Milk's many errors this week have forced our hand. And Father approves.

[Adam Scott]

Father encouraged it. Darri is so good. Oh, my God.

[Ben Stiller]

Darry Olufsen, a friend of mine who I met when we did Secret Life of Walter Mitty. When I met him, I was told he was probably like, the most popular actor in Iceland, which I think he is.

[Adam Scott]

That makes sense.

[Ben Stiller]

He does stage, television, he produces, he writes. And he came over to do Drummond for us, which has just been, I think, just so much fun to see this sort of, you know, he's kind of in that world of the. Not the new Grainor, but he has, I think, a more. Probably a more complicated position than Grainor had.

[Adam Scott]

It seems like he has quite a bit of power.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes, he does. You know, at this point, he's telling her something she doesn't want to hear in terms of, you know, obviously the fallout from the Ortbow and what Milchick screwed up sort of on a big scale, and she's having to deal with a lot of the fallout from that. And I think he's trying to be sensitive to it, but he's basically telling her that she's gotta tow the company line and go back down.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, but something he's kind of not saying, either out of politeness or deference, is that she fucked up, too. Like, she got found out. She didn't pull it off. So that's true. That's part of what's going on here, too. And she doesn't like any of it. And she calls Enies fucking animals, which is really crazy. But you can.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing, right? The Egan perspective on Innies.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. They're not like a whole person, because if they thought of them that way, how would they be able to do any of this?

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And I think that for Helena, she's now at this Point. Learned how people feel about heli down there and.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

I feel like she's feeling like she's missing out on something. It feels to me that she's definitely not getting in her hell in the life.

[Adam Scott]

Totally.

[Ben Stiller]

The interpersonal connections or the, you know, the friendships, let alone the feelings for Mark.

[Adam Scott]

Think about that. I mean, this relationship has blossomed on her watch in an intense way. I mean, they got physical and have this strong connection.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I mean.

[Ben Stiller]

And what are her feelings from that? I mean, they slept together. You know, they were intimate with one another. So I think when she's calling them fucking animals, you know, there's a real complicated reaction that's going on there to what, you know, what she feels about hell.

[Adam Scott]

For sure.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And then she has to go back down there.

[Adam Scott]

Right.

[Ben Stiller]

Not as Helena, but, you know, she has to go through the sever transition and go back down as heli.

[Adam Scott]

Good morning, Helly R.

[Ben Stiller]

Who the fuck are you? This is interesting because to me, like, one of the big questions was, now that heli is back, this is having to sort of reset everything that got set up in the first four episodes in terms of having to bring heli up to speed. And the ortbow happened, and Irving was basically killed in Irving.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And this question of how does heli process all this not knowing anything that's happened that we all have seen for the first four episodes, and how does Milchick deal with this situation of all of them freaking out on him?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And I remember it being really important to me that it not just be a situation where Helly's back. Okay, let's catch her up and just, like, continue figuring stuff out. It's such a betrayal and such a. Mark's entire kind of emotional world was turned upside down. So there needed to be some trust issues there. If you find out that the most important person in the world to you is not at all who you thought they were, there would be a strong kind of reaction in the other direction. And so, yeah, it's a reset for Heli. Sort of a reset for everything because all the progress that they'd made looking for Ms. Kayce is out the window completely. You know, everything is sort of the game board has been tossed or whatever you say.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And there's no trust. And Milchick had to then sort of reset them all again.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

MDR together again. Come on in. I need to know what's going on, like, right now. Where's Irving, and why was he trying to drown me?

[Adam Scott]

Cause you're a fucking Egan, Was she spying on us?

[Ben Stiller]

Wait, what? The whole time? It's called a Glasgow block. It allows one's outie. Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that she was down here as me?

[Adam Scott]

Maybe she still is.

[Michael Chernis]

Hey, I repeat myself.

[Adam Scott]

Where is Irving? Wait, yeah, where is he?

[Ben Stiller]

I'm so confused. Answer my question. Excuse me.

[Adam Scott]

Dylan becomes hyper focused on Irv and needing everyone to acknowledge Irv dying, essentially, and not getting quite what he wants from anybody. And helly, like, no one's quite giving her what she needs either. She's like, what the fuck? I'm just like, no one. You know, everybody's sort of off in their own world.

[Ben Stiller]

And how does Milchik explain that Helena was down there spying on them?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

And so he comes up with this story of the Grokchuppon. Have you ever heard the story of the Grachschuppen?

[Adam Scott]

Let's assume we haven't.

[Ben Stiller]

In ancient times, the King of Sweden himself was known to go incognito amongst his people in the hopes of learning their true grievances. He would don an old gray robe, a Grakshuppen, the name for which he was remembered. The Grakshupon was based on a true story, you know, the true legends of the king or queen who would go undercover amongst the people when they didn't know what the king or queen looked like to understand the needs of their people. And the Grackapan is actually a true story. I will say that we came up with that idea of that story. And then Tramiel, I think he called me up the night before we shot, and he was asking about the pronunciation of Gracopan, and I did not know the. And so he came in with this Grakshupan pronunciation. I don't know where he got it from, but I think he did some research on it.

[Adam Scott]

It was impossible to not laugh whenever he did that. And we did it a lot and we had a tough time because it's amazing.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, Swedish. It's Swedish. Cause Dylan calls it Swedish Horseshit. Right? And what I like about that scene is that it's kind of believable enough that you could chew on it a little bit, but also, nobody's really buying it.

[Adam Scott]

Also, nobody's even listening to what he's saying at this point, I don't think.

[Ben Stiller]

But it's also, at this point, it's sort of like, I'm just gonna tell you this story, and then he's gonna immediately take you out to the new MDR desks and show you the three desks and all of a sudden, it's like the mind games are like, okay, this is it. He's gone. This is the reality. And I think there's an understanding that you don't really want to dig much deeper on this because your desk will be gone too.

[Adam Scott]

And the whole Lumen is listening thing is basically out the window too.

[Ben Stiller]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Scott]

It's just like, oh, yeah, that's all done.

[Ben Stiller]

Let's talk about the funeral, because Dylan really insists that they need to do something to remember Irving. This is in this aftermath of everybody just, I think, being so disoriented by what happened at the Ortbo and the news of that heli. Wasn't heli. And everybody's sort of retreating to their own corners. And for Dylan, he's just focused on Irving. And Milchick puts together the bereavement ceremony. To me, it's this ominous little moment where you see him picking out the Irving cup. So the Irving coffee cup is gonna be for Irving's bereavement ceremony. But you also see there's a heli cup and there's a Mark cup. And in the back of your head, maybe there's like, oh, someday each one of these people will have their own cup at their bereavement ceremony.

[Adam Scott]

And the printout that he's. You get the sense that there is a checklist for a bereavement ceremony, and they're just running through it and getting it ready.

[Ben Stiller]

And by the way, how about that watermelon head? The Irving.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, my God, the watermelon head.

[Ben Stiller]

There's something about that with that little. It has that little, like, papal cap on it. He looks like little Pope Irving.

[Adam Scott]

He does. He does. And I could see.

[Ben Stiller]

I mean that totally respectfully.

[Adam Scott]

I could see John being the Pope. He could pull it off.

[Ben Stiller]

He should have been in conclave.

[Adam Scott]

I agree.

[Ben Stiller]

I haven't even seen conclave, but I feel like he should have been in it.

[Adam Scott]

I saw conclave. Everyone's incredible. Turturro should have been in there somewhere.

[Ben Stiller]

But then Dylan gives this very sweet eulogy for Irving.

[Michael Chernis]

He asked me for help with something near the end, and I didn't listen.

[Adam Scott]

And in his final moments, he would.

[Michael Chernis]

Have been totally justified in telling me to suck my own fuck. But he didn't. Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

He was awesome, and I miss him. Thank you, Dylan.

[Michael Chernis]

G. A little sugar with your usual salt?

[Adam Scott]

I remember shooting that and just thinking, Zach is so great.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I love Ms. Wong and her theremin playing, how she just. The sound design on that one. I know you And Jeff, probably on the timing of this, the one little peep of theremin we get before Milchick tells her it's just a perfectly timed comedic thing.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. They've got their own little kind of work situation happening. The dynamic going on between the two of them. And you get to sense that she's not really being given the chance to spread her wings as much as she might want to.

[Adam Scott]

Sarah Bok. The great Sarah Bok.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. Yeah. It's also interesting because you're not really into it as Mark.

[Adam Scott]

Right. You're not into it. I'm at a place where Mark is at a place where it's all a waste of time. Like, what are we doing? What difference does it make if we have a funeral for Irving or we don't have a funeral for Irving. He's gone. He's not dead, by the way. He's out there in the world. We're stuck down here. If we're here. Sure, go do your funeral. Whatever. He's just. It's cynicism. He's experiencing cynicism, I think, for the first time.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, it's also interesting because you have spent 40 minutes in the outside world. You have an experience of the outside world that Dylan doesn't have. He's had, like, maybe 30 seconds in his closet. But when you say, like, Irving's not dead, you really, you know, you're really, like, coming at it from a place of, like. I think you're just so sort of over the whole thing. But also, I think in my mind, also feeling this hurt from the Helen of Helly lie. And Dylan's feeling this hurt having lost Irving.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And Helly feels hurt because no one is coming up and saying, hey, are you okay? Like, what are you feeling? Like everybody. Everybody is deeply hurt and isolated at the same time.

[Ben Stiller]

You're processing the fact that you now don't trust Helly. Cause you don't know. You really don't know. So everything is sort of upended.

[Adam Scott]

What was she like? Like you or you're like her? I don't know. I don't know who you are, I guess.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes, you do. Okay. It's not my fault that my Audi hijacked me.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, no, no, totally. I get it. It sucks.

[Ben Stiller]

Mark?

[Adam Scott]

Yeah?

[Ben Stiller]

What happened to you up there?

[Adam Scott]

Doesn't matter.

[Ben Stiller]

It doesn't matter.

[Adam Scott]

Nope.

[Ben Stiller]

Do you want to hear what happened to me?

[Adam Scott]

No, I don't. And let's just try to forget it. The bathroom scene between Britt and I was tricky to get just that tone exactly. Right. Kind of Mark's reaction to her and her approach to Mark just. It was complicated and difficult and very fine line, very subtle differences. But we. I think I love that scene, but it wasn't easy to nail down.

[Ben Stiller]

No. There were so many different agendas to juggle in terms of what would be on the characters minds after this huge revelation.

[Adam Scott]

Right. Cause it's a really important scene. Not like eventful, but a really emotionally important scene.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Because the audience has. I felt it was like incredibly important that the audience after episode four can get reinvested in what's going on. And it's not going like, well, wait a minute, this happened or that happened. How could they even not worry about that? And that it took a little while to figure out what were the important things that the characters had to address for us to really kind of reset the story and keep it going forward in these little sort of interaction moments. It's not like a bigger story thing, it's more like little emotional tracking stuff. But it was also storytelling wise, we thought, you know, Mark has to rethink everything that happened in the first four episodes. And so he has to really go back and process that. And what it does is it takes away any trust he really has in Heli. And so they have to kind of figure out how to rebuild their relationship.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And I think up until their conversation at the end, he's made a game time decision of let's just do whatever they say. It doesn't matter if we do one thing or the other. We're gonna end up right back at this spot. Might as well just refine and.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. It's kind of like Mark has become, you know, from the first season, if he was the. The young child in the second season, he's becoming much more aware, much more rebellious. But now he kind of has like a I don't give a fuck sort of attitude which kind of makes him even more, I think of a loose cannon because he really doesn't know what to believe in, what's true, what's not true. He knows he doesn't trust Lumen any Mark. And he's kind of lost trust in Heli. But what we see also is how much Helly and Mark have feelings for each other too. That regardless of that.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

Like he as we see. Because we see you come together and that part of it is a very important element of the story. It kind of in a way helps bond Heli and Mark by the end of this episode.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, it's. Wouldn't you say, I Do. And I think that it's in that last conversation in the hallway. But there's still a secret between them that Milchick exploits at the end. That's particularly diabolical on Milchick's part, I think.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. You mean the elevator scene. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that, to me, is this moment where Milcik is under the gun because he's just gotten this performance review. Right. Where we're really starting to feel the companies turning the screws on him.

[Adam Scott]

He can't find an ally at all. He's just alone. Welcome, Mr. Milchick. Today I will be conducting your monthly performance review.

[Ben Stiller]

This review can take anywhere from two to six hours, depending on the number of atonements and approbations required. If the review is to take longer than four hours, there will be a break for lunch with the order taken in advance. Well, I hope that won't be necessary. Here is the lunch menu. The performance review with Milchick is, I think, part of this trajectory that we're seeing of. You know, Milchick is kind of doing a lot that is probably new for him. New responsibilities within the company as being the floor manager. But also after three, we're feeling like. Well, he's questioning also, like, what the attitude is really towards him at the company.

[Adam Scott]

He's quietly questioning, which is what's so fascinating about it.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's, I think, incredibly loyal to the company.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

And what I like about this whole little trajectory that's evolving is people see Milchick as a very mysterious and sometimes scary character. And I'm starting to feel, especially as we see him relating to Drummond, who is this, you know, obviously his superior and is kind of putting him through the wringer on this performance review that, you know, that Milchick has to answer to someone as well. It's just interesting to see Milchick be put in this position where he has to respond to his superior. It's not Cobell and Cobell and him. I think we look at that in relation to Drummond and Milchick. Cobell and Milchick have a much deeper relationship. There's a friendship there. You can tell, even if it's underneath. Cobell would confide in him about things that she was doing that were possibly not, you know, totally kosher at the company. And there was sort of a. It felt like there was like a trust.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And he's without that now.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

There's no one to talk to.

[Ben Stiller]

No. And Drummond is there with Natalie going through all of these infractions and also trying to figure out who reported him. And you see that he's taking it really hard.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And in three, when Natalie brings him the paintings, Tramiel is just so deeply excellent through all of these things he's going through. He doesn't have anyone to confide in or talk to. But we, the audience, we get let in on these questions that he's having. But none of it's verbal. We just experience it with him and he's so good that we don't need it to be verbalized. No, but you see him going through it and we get it emotionally.

[Ben Stiller]

And you do see that he reaches out to Natalie before the performance review.

[Adam Scott]

Oh yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

Try to connect on what happened with the paintings and this question of like did you feel weird too when you got these paintings and she's not going to go there with him?

[Adam Scott]

No. There's. He doesn't get anything and it kind.

[Ben Stiller]

Of goes the other way. And then of course you see that trickle down effect of post performance review when he's told to tighten the leash that he takes it out directly on Mark.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah.

[Ben Stiller]

In the elevator.

[Adam Scott]

Sure does.

[Ben Stiller]

Did you and Hellyach catch up?

[Adam Scott]

We did.

[Ben Stiller]

Did you tell her that you her Audi at the Oro. Helena Egan, leader in waiting of this company. First time we ever see Milchick, I think talk like that, you know, use bad language like that.

[Adam Scott]

It's shocking.

[Ben Stiller]

Do you remember the documentary the COVID about the dolphins in Japan came out maybe 10 years ago. I think it won the Oscar. There was a character named. They called him personal space. Cause he would get up in the face of one of the protesters. Anyway, to me when I think of Tramiel coming right up to you, he's getting into your personal space there. I mean it's so uncomfortably close. Just the two of you are face to face in profile and you're really kind of. You're giving him more shit than you've ever given him.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. I mean it's post the conversation with Heli. It's after all this stuff and it's just like, okay, dude. I think that Mark is far more free to kind of call him on his bullshit than or feels far more free to call Milchick on his bullshit than he ever has. He has nothing to lose at this point, essentially.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. And then meanwhile on the outside, Regabi is there living with you and you've sort of agreed to this reintegration process. It's very arcane and weird and you have to drink special liquid and you're kind of over the fact that you have to live with her there. I love what she says to you. Something about, like, the washing machine's not working or something. And you say something like, yeah. Or you could just, like, not live here. Yeah.

[Adam Scott]

I think Regabi and Mark are opposites in a lot of ways. And she has no real party manners. She's just all business. And I do not think they're best friends.

[Ben Stiller]

I kind of like the theme, though, that's developed in the show of people living in Mark's basement. Like, there's Petey living in her basement in season one here for Gabi in season two.

[Adam Scott]

Karen Aldridge is just fantastic. I love Karen. She's so good.

[Ben Stiller]

You know, talk about with Gen Tullock, how she can not do something that feels real. I feel like with Karen, you never get a take that's the same way twice, because it's always coming from a place of. She's processing whatever she's heard in the moment. And whatever's gonna come out is gonna come out in a way that feels right for that moment. And so it's always interesting, you know, and it's always believable.

[Adam Scott]

Totally.

[Ben Stiller]

And she carries a lot of water that way in terms of having. We have to believe that she can do this process. So what do you think, Mark, at this point, he's decided he wants to do this reintegration because he wants to. You know, he believes that this is his chance to contact Gemma.

[Adam Scott]

Yes.

[Ben Stiller]

But he's also kind of like, getting a little bit maybe skeptical of Regabi, because, like, at the end of the day, she's just this person in his basement who's telling him that she's doing this stuff. But he has no other proof really of it. But he's kind of desperate because he believes her now that he has enough information from what Cobell told him, that he thinks this could actually be a real thing.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. And, you know, he knows that she's the one that was trying to reintegrate Petey. And she's convinced him that she's figured it out since then, because obviously it ended up killing Petey. But I think at the end of the day, him finding out that Gemma is, in fact, alive, this is a real piece of information. It's worth dying for. I think that it is the most important thing, obviously, in his life, but maybe the most important thing. He has to do this no matter what. It had to be.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. You've taken the first steps and you're starting to reintegrate. I mean, we're starting to see that and the end of the episode is really where we see it start to happen for you in a way that for the first time, you're kind of dissociating from where you are and you're starting to have these flashes of being on the severed floor. And all of a sudden you're in the long, dark hallway from the break room. And it's the first time we ever see you, Audi Mark having a glimpse into any Mark's world.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, that was really interesting. Shooting in the MDR hallways as Audi Mark in, like, those clothes and stuff. It was so bizarre, and it's really.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, you were, like, in a sweatshirt. In a sweatshirt in the MDR hallways. I was like, this is crazy.

[Adam Scott]

It's crazy. And seeing just the visual of Audi Mark down there is super interesting too. It's really weird, but, yeah. And we shot all of that stuff, both Innie and Audi. So Sam would have me walk down that hallway and keep. Stay in the exact same. You know, trying to keep everything exactly the same in two different pieces of wardrobe so we could do those flashes back and forth and not have it be green screen or whatever, but actually do all of it. And it was really meticulous.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, you did that also in episode three when we did it for the. For you waking up on the table at the end of episode three, where you had to do every different permutation. But I think to me, what I take away from that scene and the way the episode ends is the feeling, right. The emotional toll that this is taking on you. Because all of a sudden, Audie Mark is seeing for a second, he sees Gemma, a Ms. Kayce version of Gemma, but it's Gemma. And we end on this moment of you back in reality in your living room or wherever. And, you know, you're basically almost crying there because it was such a deep feeling. And to me, that's really effective the way that it was done because it reminded me of, like, waking up from a dream. If you've ever had a dream where you see someone who you missed or, you know, you have a deep emotion in a dream. And for me, a lot of times my dreams are, like. Are feelings that I associate with them as much as the imagery. And I've had that where I've woken up almost crying. And that, to me, was the most impactful part of that whole sequence was the fact that, oh, wait, this is gonna take an emotional toll on Mark, this journey of trying to reintegrate.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah. Because what we were figuring out and really zeroing in on Shooting that scene was. This is the first time he has seen Gemma in three years. And he's not looking at a photograph of her. He's not watching something on his phone. She is standing in front of him. And you know when someone dies, you're never going to see them again. And she's right there. And, yeah, she's dressed weird and hair is different and everything, but just sort of the emotional shock of standing right there with her, or that's how it feels anyway.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah, to me, it was very emotional at the end of that episode. And I think that gets back to kind of the core of what I think we always want with the show is keep it grounded in that as much as any of the weirdness or anything is really Mark's journey, you know. Before we say goodbye, it's time to hear Zach Cherry's prediction of what's gonna happen in the next episode in episode six, which I'm really looking forward to.

[Adam Scott]

Oh, yeah. Let's see.

[Michael Chernis]

Hi, y'all. Well, Zack Cherry here again, and it's time for that part of the episode where I make a prediction about what's.

[Ben Stiller]

Going to happen next.

[Adam Scott]

Next time on Severance.

[Michael Chernis]

You know, I think that Dylan is going to be Inspired by watching Ms. Wong play theremin, and he's going to take up an instrument of his own called the Voice. That's right. Dylan's going to start taking voice lessons and will sound a little something like this. La la la la la. That's just his first lesson. And he is going to submit himself to be on a music competition reality show. What's your favorite music competition reality show? Write in to Ben and Adam and let them know what your favorite music competition reality show is.

[Ben Stiller]

I love it.

[Adam Scott]

Yeah, I love it. You know, I would love to see a Lumen competition reality show.

[Ben Stiller]

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think I'd love to see Dylan on, I don't know, American Idol or. That was. By the way, I used to watch American Idol back in the old days. That was my thing. Yeah, I think Dylan, you know, the guy's very lovable, and that goes a long way on those competition singing shows.

[Adam Scott]

100%. I think he would have gotten further than Beau Bice, that's for sure.

[Ben Stiller]

Ah, Bo Bice. I was a big Bo Bice fan.

[Adam Scott]

Did Bo Bis win?

[Ben Stiller]

He was the runner up, but I wanted him to win. I wanted him to win. Do you remember what song he did?

[Adam Scott]

I think he did Vehicle, vehicle Be.

[Ben Stiller]

Your vehicle, baby Be your vehicle, baby.

[Adam Scott]

He did a lot of songs like that.

[Ben Stiller]

Well, I think Dylan should definitely go on a reality show and the Lumen reality show for singing. I'm sure that Ms. Cobell would be judging.

[Adam Scott]

Ms. Cobell would be like the Simon, right?

[Ben Stiller]

She'd be the Simon Cowell. And you'd have to sing the not punitive rendition of the Kir hymn.

[Adam Scott]

That's the only song anyone could sing.

[Ben Stiller]

That's the only song you can sing. Just different interpretations of it.

[Adam Scott]

And all the judges would be Simon's. Everyone would be mean. Okay. And that is it for this episode. The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two, episode six.

[Ben Stiller]

Yes. And you can stream stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

[Adam Scott]

And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions and Great Scott Productions.

[Ben Stiller]

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Audio Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Bari Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss Berman and Leah Rees Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basel. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.

[Adam Scott]

Show clips are courtesy of fifth season music by Theodore Chappelle. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff.

[Ben Stiller]

And the team at Red, John Lesher, Carolina Pesakov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Balderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker and Oliver Agar.

[Adam Scott]

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin and Christy Smith. At Rise Management, we had additional production.

[Ben Stiller]

Help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter. And this has been really fun. I'm Ben Stiller.

[Adam Scott]

And I'm Adam Scott. And I agree that it's been super fun. And remember everyone, that your Audi once captured a butterfly. And you can too. Thank you. Bye.