Balancing Emotional Depth and Action In Your Story

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Balancing Emotional Depth and Action In Your Story

Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guest Author: Judith Jaeger

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe are joined by author Judith Jaeger for the "Books with Hooks" segment. They provide an in-depth critique of Judith's query letter and opening pages for her women's fiction manuscript, The Family We Choose. The episode centers on the persistent challenge for many writers: achieving the right balance between emotional depth (interiority) and on-page action (plot) to create a compelling, marketable novel.

While celebrating Judith’s exquisite line-level writing and mastery of emotional layering, the conversation probes the pitfalls of "quiet" novels that lack sufficient external stakes and causality, offering practical strategies for strengthening story engines and tightening plot.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Query Letter Critique: Finding the Story’s Heart

• Clarity of Stakes and Tone

  • Carly raises concerns about the genre positioning and ambiguity in the query: "Is it dangerous? Are people dying? I just couldn't quite figure out the tone element there." (06:54)
  • Both agents urge Judith to be specific about the protagonist's external stakes (her career in ballet, the family secrets, risk of loneliness), steering away from vagueness and overblown emotional language.

• Plot vs. Emotional Weight

  • CeCe observes that, while the query gestures at deep emotional wounds, it lacks clear external conflict: "In stories where so much of the plot hinges on the past, as agents, we often think, well, why isn't the story taking place in the past?... We need present day conflict." (12:07)

• Advice on Author Bio

  • CeCe recommends omitting mention of Judith’s prior novel unless it was a breakout success: "This industry only wants debuts or people with great established track records... I would remove that." (15:40)
  • Carly offers a less severe option: only mention facts, not marketing achievements, unless the book won awards or sold many copies.

2. Unpacking Structure & Stakes: Braiding Emotional and Plot Momentum

• Diagnosis of a “Quiet” Novel

  • CeCe discusses how writers often focus on root causes—developing interiority and emotional nuance—but neglect the causality and urgency that drive stories forward, cautioning, "You are framing your story in a way that is lowering all the stakes." (12:59)

• Present-Day Engine & Ticking Clock

  • Both agents agree the manuscript’s present-day arc lacks urgency:
    • Carly: "We need a ticking time clock... Is it finances? Or they're gonna be kicked out of the apartment?... She has to get back to the stage." (28:38)
    • Judith shares that Toni, the protagonist, must recover by the end of summer or lose her ballet career spot—a workable ticking clock.

• Plot Causality: An Example

  • CeCe demonstrates possible causal plotting:
    • "She has to get out, gets the letter... [makes] this bargain. She's now trying to do the ballet school thing, her mom shows up... Complication number one... She tells a lie with good intentions, but it’s a bad lie..." (31:29-34:26)
    • The story should be structured so "one thing leads to the other," propelling both plot and character.

• Dual Timeline Consideration

  • Bianca suggests a dual past/present timeline might help manage backstory while focusing on current narrative momentum. CeCe agrees, but emphasizes that wouldn't fix the absence of a present-day engine: "You still would have to come up with a present day arc. And... you do not have one." (27:01)

3. First Pages Analysis: Emotional Power vs. Narrative Tension

• Writing Craft Praise

  • All hosts laud Judith’s line-level writing and emotional layering:
    • CeCe: "A sign of writing emotion really well is layers of emotion... that takes a really advanced writer to pull that off." (44:17)
    • Bianca: "The writing is just incredible. So few people can write that well on a line level. So you've got that nailed." (49:32)

• Starting at the Right Moment

  • Carly believes the manuscript starts too late: "It's really hard to start with grief... We can't mourn a person we don't know." (40:41)
  • Prefers opening with action—perhaps the on-stage injury—rather than Toni alone after the funeral.

• Creating Immediate Curiosity

  • CeCe suggests leveraging reader curiosity (via plot movement, power shifts, and stakes) instead of opening in a static emotional state: "This needs to have a focus on curiosity, not a focus on empathy right now." (44:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Specificity and Stakes in Queries

  • Carly: "That line means nothing to me... I think it has to go, or you just got to get more specific." (06:54)

• On Emotional Depth vs. Plot

  • CeCe: "You are framing your story in a way that is lowering all the stakes... for your query letter, we must lead with the juicy conflict. And I don't know what the juicy conflict is." (12:59)

• On Industry Realities in Author Bios

  • CeCe: "This industry only wants debuts or people with great established track records. I do think you should mention [your previous novel] when you have CH agents, but... I would remove that." (15:40)

• On Plot Construction and Causality

  • CeCe: "One thing leads to the other, which leads to the other... That's what your query letter needs to focus on." (34:10)

• On Praise for Writing Skill

  • CeCe: "I have to read one. 'The hospice ladies made it sound like the stages of grief were couples arriving at a dinner party or a bowling team gathering for league play.' Like, brava. Truly so great." (44:17)

• On Addressing the Real Writer’s Challenge

  • Bianca: "Few people can write that well on a line level. So you've got that nailed. It's just figuring out the domino's tipping well." (49:32)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [02:59] — Judith Jaeger reads her query letter.
• [06:54] — Carly provides big-picture feedback on query’s tone, stakes, and specificity.
• [12:07] — CeCe zeroes in on the need for present-day plot and urgency.
• [15:40] — CeCe & Carly discuss pros/cons of mentioning a previous book in the bio.
• [18:56] — Judith details the family secrets and the nearly fatal accident turning point.
• [27:01] — Hosts discuss potential for a dual timeline and urgency in the present.
• [31:29-34:26] — CeCe presents a possible plotting structure to illustrate causality.
• [35:55] — Judith summarizes her novel’s opening pages.
• [37:11-42:53] — Carly and CeCe critique the opening pages and discuss ideal starting points.
• [44:17] — CeCe and hosts praise Judith's line-level writing and emotional layering.
• [49:32] — Bianca gives final encouragement and takeaway advice.

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Actionable Takeaways for Writers

• Lead with specificity and clear external stakes in your query.
• Emotional depth is vital—but must be matched by causality, urgency, and present action that moves the story forward.
• When in doubt, identify a "ticking clock" for your protagonist and ensure every major character desire is tied to concrete consequences.
• Static scenes of grief or backstory work best after the reader is invested. Openings should hook via curiosity, immediacy, or power shifts.

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in balancing emotional resonance with narrative propulsion. Judith's talent for writing emotion is roundly praised, but the hosts’ advice—delivered with candor and warmth—reminds all writers that readers are ultimately drawn forward by suspense, stakes, and forward movement. The episode offers practical, actionable strategies for “quiet” novelists to inject plot without sacrificing psychological complexity.

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Transcript

[Carly Waters]

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[Bianca Murray]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the beta reader matchup?

[Host / Moderator]

Or have you signed up before but.

[Bianca Murray]

Haven'T as yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work and as you critique theirs, your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the beta reader matchup tab. Please spread the word. Even if you aren't signing up this time, the the more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be. Which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors. Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S.

[Host / Moderator]

Literary. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hooks. Today we're very excited to have the author joining us. Judy, welcome to the show.

[Judith Jaeger]

Thank you.

It's such a wonderful opportunity to be here. It's really a gift to be able to be here with you three amazing women who are so generous with your time and expertise and everything that you give to the writer community.

Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to thank you, Judith.

[Host / Moderator]

I know you've been a long time listener, so it's wonderful to have you on. We're going to kick it off by asking you to please read us your query letter.

[Carly Waters]

Great.

[Judith Jaeger]

Thank you so much.

So here we are.

Dear Cece, because of your interest in emotion driven relationship dramas, I hope you'll enjoy my novel the Family. We choose an 85,000 word work of women's fiction in first person single point of view. When an injured ballerina returns home for the first time in seven years for her father's funeral, she discovers that the lies that tore her family apart are nothing compared to the truth that could piece it back together or break it apart forever. Fans of the Catch by Allison Fairbrother or A Very Inconvenient Scandal by Jacqueline Machard will enjoy this story of resilience, reconciliation and rediscovery of the meaning of family home, if she could call it that, is the last place 25 year old Toni Murray wants to be. But a hip injury and her father's death leave her with no other option. Back in the third floor apartment of her family's triple decker in Worcester, Massachusetts, she's broke, fairly mobile, and at the mercy of the two uncles who helped raise her. These men love her, but they were also part of the biggest lie of her life, convincing Toni of her mother's supposed death. That deception shattered their family seven years ago when Tony's mother turned up on their doorstep very much alive. Determined to recover and leave, Toni turns to her former dance teacher for help while her mother, now playing the supportive mom and pushing a garish legging MLM on everyone, moves in as Toni helps launch a new ballet school with her dance teacher. She also starts mending relationships with her former best friend, her uncles, and the ex love of her life, whose girlfriend may be stalking her. Old wounds reopen, and so do old questions. Why did her father and uncles fight so hard to keep Toni away from her mother? What else did they lie about? And what terrible mistakes did Toni make seven years ago, when she finally uncovers the secret at the heart of it all? It leads to a nearly fatal accident. With no father, a swindler mother who's left her again, and the risk of losing more people she loves, Toni must finally decide to choose love and the only family she's known, or walk away.

Into a life of loneliness.

This novel draws on my background in ballet and my deep ties to the city of Worcester, where I've worked for more than 25 years. My first novel, the Secret Thief, was published by an independent press in 2008, and I led its promotion, leveraging my extensive career in marketing and communications. Since then, I've focused on raising my son with my husband in central Massachusetts while continuing to develop my fiction. I'm currently writing my next novel, set in a living history museum, inspired by my college job, as well as my substack newsletter, the art of after 50. The first five pages are below for your review. It will be an honor to share the full manuscript with you. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely, Judith Jaeger.

[Host / Moderator]

Thank you so much. Judith, can you give us the word count?

[Judith Jaeger]

There it is, 507 words.

[Host / Moderator]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Okay, Carly, we're going to hand it across to you now.

[Carly Waters]

All right, thanks so much for coming on. We're so excited to chat with you.

And get into it. So I think I'm going to start me with Big Picture. I usually just start kind of top to bottom, but since we're here, we get to always get into some great discussions, which is really fun. Okay, so you are pitching this as women's fiction and there's a lot of like, thriller ish elements or tone here that I kind of wanted to. I don't know, I guess I wasn't really clear on what exactly happens to people. Like, is it dangerous? You know, you. You have also, like a nearly fatal accident risk of losing more people she loves. Like, is it just that more people are going missing? Are people dying? Like, I guess I just couldn't quite figure out the tone element there. So that left me some questions about positioning and things like that. But I think your comps are great. So the catch and a very inconvenient Scandal. They're both. They're both recent and, you know, well reviewed, and obviously Jacqueline is such an icon. So I do think those are pretty solid up to date comps. But, yeah, I guess I was just trying to figure out, like, what's at stake here. How much of this is about her recovery and how much of this is just kind of like, understanding and coming to terms with her past versus, like, what she's trying to build. I couldn't really figure out. You know, when you say when an injured ballerina returns home for the first time in seven years for her father's funeral, all. Okay, all of that generally makes sense, right? I kind of want to know, though, like, how good of a ballerina was she? I mean, because that kind of frames my understanding of, you know, was she in a company? Was she touring? Is this a really big deal that she's injured? Obviously nobody wants to be injured, but when your body's on the line for your job, there's a certain amount of stakes and finances obviously here to kind of think about. And I don't know that much about ballerinas. I'm assuming they don't make money if they get hurt, you know, like certain athletes, right. Depending on their contract and things like that. So, yeah, I want to know how good of a ballerina she is, what's at stake for her there. And then the second part of that sentence is discovers that the lies that tore her family apart are nothing compared to the truth that could piece it back together or break it forever. That line means nothing to me. I don't understand it. I think it has to go, or you just got to get more specific, you know, And I think that the first body paragraph is great, like, so juicy, right? She comes back home. Her father has, you know, has passed. She's broke, barely mobile. You know, two people that she thought loved her, lied to her, and then she comes back. Like, that's really juicy. So I think the discovers the lies piece from the first paragraph probably just has to go because we're getting right into kind of the meat of the story right away. And that's a really great paragraph. So I don't think we need that piece. And the questions. So in the. In the third paragraph, the second body paragraph, why did her father and uncles.

Fight so hard to keep Toni away from her mother?

What else did they lie about? What terrible mistakes did toni make:7 years ago by the questions, you know, why can't we write this in. In a different way? I guess they just felt leading and a Bit unnecessary because we have those questions as the reader we're asking them, so I don't think you need to put them on the page because, again, a good query letter should elicit those questions in us as we are reading. So, yeah, I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.

What does she want? She wants to heal.

She wants to find some answers about what happened to her mother. But all of that is kind of like past things. It's like healing from a past accident, finding the answers from the past in the present. What are we doing? You have obviously, like, launching the ballet school, mending the relationships. That's all very, like, lovely and healing. We have the girlfriend who might be stalking her. And then that's when you start to get vague again. Right. There's the questions and then uncovers the secret at the heart of it all. Leads to a nearly fatal accident. Yeah, I don't know. I. I guess I couldn't figure out, like, if you're escalating the stakes vaguely because it isn't actually that dramatic, or is it that it is really serious and therefore it is more of a thriller. I. I just couldn't really read between the lines on that. And then, you know, you close this out with Tony must finally decide to choose love in the only family she's known. But does she mean romantic love or family love? So to choose love in the only family she's known or walk away into a life of loneliness, I just kind of think, like, are she not working towards something bigger than that? Like, is that really what we're. What we're worried about?

I don't know.

It just left me with a bit of a. I don't know how eager people would be to read the sample when we're talking about things like, you know, loneliness. I just didn't really feel like that was the right note to end on in that sense. I don't know if maybe. Maybe it's just overly dramatic in the way that you wrote it and. Or maybe there, again, there's something else there that she's concerned about. Because why wouldn't. You know? Again, once she's healed, she clearly is very talented. If she's a ballerina, why couldn't she figure out a way to move on and heal? Why would loneliness be the solution here? So I just have some questions and again, we can kind of get into what the plot of the book is and things like that so we can.

Get into it a bit more.

But those are some of my overarching thoughts. And I think it's always fun to have an author on the show because I get to pick at things in a different way. So thanks for letting me dig in there.

[Host / Moderator]

Thank you, Carly. We'll hand it over to Judy shortly. I'd just like to get Cece's feedback, and then we can start picking Judy's brain in terms of getting those questions answered.

[Cece Lira]

Okay, Cece, I will briefly echo what Carly said about the past. In stories where so much of the plot hinges on the past, as agents, we often think, well, why isn't the story taking place in the past? You know, or at least, why isn't it dual timeline? And maybe it is. You're here so you can tell us. But I do think that we need present day conflict. I didn't know if the inciting incident was her mother coming back, opening up the ballet school, but, you know, big picture notes. If I had to shoot the movie trailer version of the story, I wouldn't be able to because there's a lot of information on her interiority, on her vibes, but really just two clear plot points, which is her mother coming back and then her opening up the school. There is a reference to an accident, but it's so vague that, again, could I shoot it? No, because it could be a car accident.

[Carly Waters]

It could be.

[Cece Lira]

I don't. I just don't know what kind of accident. Right. So, okay, Carly mentioned the major dramatic question, you know, to choose love or walk away into a life of loneliness. And I want to talk about something that happens to many writers, especially writers who are deeply empathetic, deeply sensitive people and highly intelligent. They look at a situation, there's conflict, let's say, between two people, you know, two women. Let's just make it two women. One woman lied to the other about how much money she makes. The other woman was offended by this, and in a fit of rage, she used the spare key she had to the friend's house to go into the house. And maybe she took something that she had given the friend, like a gift she had given the friend. Right. Now, a lot of people could frame this in a way that sounds really juicy. Wait, but why was she offended? Why is one friend upset about the money the other friend makes? And what gift was it? And did the friend find out about the gift? But do you know what a highly sensitive and highly intelligent person does? They frame it in a way of, you know, this woman needs to heal. She needs to heal from her wounds because, you know, she's clearly hurt based on what happened in her life, her root wounds. What highly sensitive, highly intelligent people do is they go to the root cause of things. Because it's never about the surface problems. It's always about something in her past that made her be especially triggered to people keeping a secret from her, maybe something about money. And she. She has impulse control issues. And so you are doing that. You are framing your story in a way that is lowering all the stakes. You know, I feel for her. I do. I'm actually, as a human, primed for the story because I've read your pages, and I've also lost my father. I also suffer from complex grief when it comes to him because it was a very loving relationship, but also very complicated relationship. So as a human, I get it. Like, I get that you're exploring these deep psychological themes. But for your query letter, we must lead with the juicy conflict. And I don't know what the juicy conflict is. So you're here. You can tell us. Sometimes a query letter won't have plot points that make us curious. And that sometimes is an indication of the book's execution, isn't working. The query letter can actually diagnose a book. But sometimes the authors come to me and they say, well, actually, this is what happens then all these great plot points that I'm super excited about, and, you know, we can find out which bucket you fit in. The last thing I want to say, and I feel like such a big jerk saying this, and I debated. I debated whether I should even bring this up, but I'm like, you know what? Let's err on the side of. Of being harsh, yet honest. I don't know that I would mention your first novel only because if it didn't break out, I know enough agents who would just stop reading at this point because they'd be like, this is not a debut. It's hard enough to break out a debut. This industry only wants debuts or people with great established track records. I do think you should mention it when you have ch agents, but I just don't know that I would lead with it. And I, like, I hate that this is the world we live in. Like, I hate it, but it is the world we live in. And so I would remove that.

[Carly Waters]

I'm going to chime in and just say if you're going to keep it, because I actually would err on the side of keeping it. But I would just say, like, you know, my first novel was published in 2008, and I wouldn't say anything else because when you say I let its promotion Leveraging my extensive career marketing communications. Again, this is going to sound harsh. How many copies were you actually able to sell by doing that? You know, if it's not 10,000, 20,000, then the publisher's gonna be like, that's fine. That's just factual information as opposed to, like, this is a huge selling point. So I would just say, you know, my first novel, you know, was published in 2008, period, and that's kind of it. Again, unless it was nominated for an award or won an award, that's as much as I would say on that.

[Host / Moderator]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Judith, we are now going to throw it back to you. I know we've given you a lot to think about. I don't know if you want to start answering some of those questions and allow us to brainstorm with you or if you have questions of your own.

[Judith Jaeger]

I actually really appreciate the comment about what to do about the first novel, because I didn't know what to do with it. So that was going to be one of my questions was what to do with it. And I myself was torn about it. So I agree with you that.

It'S.

Not necessarily a selling point and probably a liability at this point. So I appreciate that comment and your expert opinion on that. And I get it. That's the world we're living in. So I appreciate that feedback and we'll be implementing that for sure.

In terms of the other, this has.

Been a tough query letter for me to write because even my first novel.

That was published, like, I tend to.

Write quieter type stories, I guess, that are more like emotion driven, character driven. I know you've heard this before on the podcast. And so it can be harder to identify those, you know, driving plot points for a query letter. So a lot of the plot points in the novel are the ones that are like, turning those relationships forward. So it's. It's harder to.

Are there moments that are turning toward.

Healing all of those varied relationships? And the accident that happens happens more toward the end. That really pushes her over the edge toward making that choice of facing the hard truths about herself finally, that have to be faced. Like, what was her role finally in all of this, too? So that's where I struggle with getting those plot points in.

[Carly Waters]

Why don't you tell us what are the things that you're maybe not writing in the query letter? Like, what is the accident? And that sort of thing.

[Judith Jaeger]

The accident toward the end is so she.

The secret comes out of her. She has a confrontation with her mother.

Who has moved in with her and.

Throughout the course of the novel, she's put her mother on this pedestal.

Her mother shows up again to be with her after her father has died, and she's put her mother on this pedestal. And throughout the story, her mother reveals herself to be less than noble. And in the end, that's the crux of why they've wanted to keep her from her mother.

So the men have struggled with this dilemma of how much does a parent.

Reveal to their child of how bad the other parent is, right? Do you tell your child that the other parent is a monster? Because then what does that do to your relationship with that child? That has been their struggle. When she was younger, the father's best way out of that was to just say she's. She died. She's no longer in the picture. And when she shows up, this magical world that they had created for her shatters and ruins all of her trust with them. And that is why she leaves and stays away.

The father's death brings her back home.

And everything is tense and she has no way out because of this hip injury. She's barely mobile. She's in a kind of up and coming regional ballet company. She's kind of barely making it as a ballerina, as a ballet dancer. And this could really end her career. So sort of like her whole identity is on the line here. If she's not a dancer, what is she? And she's back home and is confronted with an ex boyfriend who she has been stuffing feelings down for. For the last seven years as well, and has to face that. And as the things progress with her mother, what happens is in the. In the climactic event, she learns why her father and her uncles were keeping them apart, because there's a deeper secret at the heart of it. And when her mother finally leaves in that moment, the two uncles come to her aid. And her reaction, the only reaction she has is to run, is to leave again. And one of the uncles chases after her and falls down the stairs, those back, treacherous back stairs, and almost, you know, breaks his neck, basically. And so it's in that moment where she. She feels like, oh, not only have I lost my father, and I wasn't really there for him when he was sick, I now nearly have almost killed my other one of my uncles who's like a father figure to me, and what am I really doing here? What am I gonna do? And it's in that moment where her other uncle comes to her and they both kind of face their shared shame over the past. And she realizes, like, Your family's there to help you and love you and actually all just people. They're all just people, even your parents. And so that's what she comes to realize.

[Host / Moderator]

So, Kali and Cece, something that's occurring to me here and I just want to run it by you in terms of the, the fact that so much happened in the past, but we're starting now in the present and moving forward. Do you think that having a dual timeline of the past and the present sort of braided together, in which we're seeing what's happening in the past is going to help with the the present day timeline?

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[Host / Moderator]

What are your thoughts there?

[Cece Lira]

I think it would, but you'd still would have to come up with a present day arc. And I am saying this with all the love. You do not have one. You have vibes, you have emotions, you have character development, you have relationships. But you, you just. I mean, you gave me a lot now. But it wasn't plot. So maybe dual timeline would be great. I'm not saying discard that idea. I'm saying it won't fix the note we're giving. The story engine right now hinges on the past. And you have to find a way for the present to have a story engine that will mirror, reflect, and leverage the past, but could stand on its own meaning. Even if we did not have references to the past, there would be sufficient plot and sufficient causality between your plot points. I still don't know what the inciting incident is. And I recommend that you take a sheet of paper and you're only allowed 10 words per bullet point. Inciting incident, escalation, Escalation, climax. And make sure that there's causality between them. At least 50% of the people I speak to who tell me they're writing a quiet novel are not. What they are is actually really intimidated by the idea of adding plot. They've done so much character development work, they've done so much interiority work, they've done so much emotionality work. And they're like, I'm too intimidated to add plot because if I add plot, I might have to change the whole thing. And I don't want to do that. But you have to because you're not actually writing a quiet novel. I don't mean you, Judith. I mean the 50% of the people which you may or may not fit into.

[Carly Waters]

So let's figure out, like, what can happen right in the present. Like, we need a ticking time clock of some kind. Is it finances? Right. Or they're gonna be kicked out of the apartment a certain time because the father was paying for it, and, you know, he's passed. Like, there just has to be a reason for everything to happen, or else this can just languish and go on and on and on in this, like, literary way. So we definitely need to figure out, again, does she need to save the ballet school, you know, that she was at when she was a child, and rebuild it? And again, because all of her ball dream started here, and this is something that she could focus on with her grief to rebuild it again. You know your story best. But there has to be an urgency in the present, because we have no urgency in the present because healing is such a vague, loosey, goosey concept. Right? Or, you know, healing from our grief or a physical injury can go on and on and on. So. Or there's like, she has to get back to the stage, or she has a job waiting for her at a ballet company in San Francisco, and she has to decide, do I take this job or do I stay? You know, we just got to figure out what the ticking time clock is and what the urgency is.

[Judith Jaeger]

She has urgency. She has to get back to that ballet company by the end of that summer because auditions are starting. The next class of young, up and coming young women are there, and she's got to get back because she's going to lose her slot. Like, there's too many young women that are there to take whoever's slot isn't filled. So she's very aware, like, I've got to get out of here as soon as possible. Like, I got to get out. And so her best friend, who she's reconciling with throughout, is a physical therapist, and it's her dance teacher who brings them back together, and that's who's rehabilitating her physically. And it rehabilitates their friendship along the way.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, that's workable. Okay.

[Host / Moderator]

But again, what are the stakes there? You know, the question is, like, if she doesn't rebuild that relationship, what are the stakes? What would happen then? So everything that the character desperately wants needs to be tied to high stakes, because if they don't get what they want, then X, Y and Z is going to happen.

[Carly Waters]

And also, like, is it just going to force her into an early retirement? Like, these are just all things that ballerinas and people that use their bodies in that way have to grapple with. So that's kind of what makes it like, it is something, but it is that urgent enough. Are the stakes high enough for that? Because we all go on as adults and evolving through the different phases of our careers. I think you paint yourself in a corner a little bit. Cece, were you gonna say something?

[Cece Lira]

Could I show you what I mean by causality in a way that will not fit your story? Because there's no way I'm gonna get it right. But just to illustrate my point, okay. Beginning of the story, it's established that she's desperate to get out but can't because of this hip injury, right? And her father just died.

[Judith Jaeger]

Great.

[Cece Lira]

She gets a letter from the ballet school or an email or whatever, saying, you have until X to come back. And she's like, how am I going to fast track my recovery? I am not God. She reaches out to a physical therapist. She has no money. Physical therapist is referred by her best friend or dance teacher, whatever. They strike a bargain. She will help with the ballet school promotion because she's a success case and, you know, helps establish the school in exchange for free physical therapy. So then there's causality. She has to get out, gets the letter. Letter makes her make this bargain. She's now trying to do the ballet school thing, and again, has no choice, is pressured. Painted into a corner, her mom shows up. Complication number one. And she's. She's happy, excited, but also fearful. You know, all these complex emotions. And her mom says, I'm here to help. She's never had her mom to help before, so it's like this huge thing for her, really. In reality, the reader doesn't know this yet. Her mom is pushing the scheme that you mentioned to the customers in the ballet school. She doesn't know this yet. So she's there, she's working, and she tells a lie. What this lie is, I don't know yet. It is very important that she tell a lie.

[Carly Waters]

Okay?

[Cece Lira]

She tells a lie with good intentions, but it's a bad lie. And the reason why I'm saying this is going to make sense in a second. She tells a lie, continues to work on the ballet school, ex boyfriend comes back. There's chemistry there. But the girlfriend presents some type of complication. And the complication can't just be she's talking her. The complication needs to be tied to the causality, right? Now, for example, maybe the girlfriend is also friends with a physical therapist and made some stuff up about her or is an investor in the ballet school.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know.

[Cece Lira]

There's got to be a web effect there. When she finds out that her mom is doing these things and pushing the mlm, she tries to stop it, but her lie comes out, nobody believes her, and she realizes that she did what her uncles did, which was lie. Lie to protect someone. But the lie caused hurt and pain. And again, I don't know what would happen after that, because these things take time. But it's. One thing leads to the other, which leads to the other, which leads to the other. And that's what your query letter needs to focus on. Not the stuff I said, because there's just no way that the stuff I said is going to fit your character. But it can't focus on why did they lie about it, like, what terrible mistakes. It just can't focus on that. That needs to be the revelation that's at the heart of your story, because she will find out the truth. But the reader's gonna keep turning those pages because they're gonna be like, oh, my God, when is this lie gonna come out? Oh, my God, what is she gonna do now that her mom is blackmailing her? Oh, my God, what is she gonna do now that the ex girlfriend said, stay away from him or. Or else. And this ex girlfriend has power over her, but she's really attracted to this guy, so I really want her to go after this guy, but I'm afraid for her, because if she does, there's gonna be problems. Like, we need to feel those active emotions, because if we don't, then what happens is your quiet novel makes us, the reader, feel quiet on the inside. And I know that's harsh, and I'm sorry.

[Judith Jaeger]

It's okay. It's not harsh. It's fine. It's all good. It's wonderful. These conversations always push me in a new direction. That makes the work better, so I appreciate it.

[Host / Moderator]

I'm wondering if the ex boyfriend couldn't be the person who's helping her recover. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, in terms of. He is the. The person who's doing the physical therapy with her, and so she desperately needs him to help her recover. And then when the girlfriend becomes all crazy and obsessed, that complicates her recovery, not just her relationship.

[Cece Lira]

So that means that they have to touch, and that creates chemistry, you know, so that's, like, sexy. I like that. Yes. Let's do that.

[Carly Waters]

Well, Cece's teach us a little biology lesson there. So people, when they get the birds and the bees and the To. Yeah, no, I think there's. There's a lot. There's a lot here. Like, I don't know. I just think of so many themes, and again, I know we don't Want to be quiet. But all of these themes have to be enacted through plot. Like, I think there's a lot of interesting themes about ballerina and strength and size and when are you allowed to feel big and how it makes you feel small? I don't know. There's a lot going on there. There's obviously a lot with, like.

We haven't even got to the page. Have we got to the pages yet?

[Judith Jaeger]

No.

[Carly Waters]

Oh, God. Okay.

We have work to do.

But anyway, there's a lot. Again, we should get to the pages. But about, like. I think there's stuff about, like, the class system I think we gotta get into, so. Okay, let's stop there. Let's get to the pages. So, Judith, why don't you summarize your pages for us?

[Judith Jaeger]

So, the opening pages, we meet Toni Murray, who's our narrator, and we meet.

Her family and where she lives through.

The lens of her grief and her anger. In this moment, she's in the apartment where she grew up on the day after her father's funeral, wrestling with that grief and anger. She's angry and sad about a lot.

Of her father's death, that her father.

And uncles lied to her about his condition, about the falling out that they had, and her injury.

She's also confused and worried about the person she's becoming.

Someone who is overwhelmed with anger at her dead father. It's her first time home in seven.

Years, and all Toni can think about is how to leave as soon as possible. Her Uncle Max enters into this tempest. He tries to make Toni feel welcome.

And invites her to stay as long as she needs, reminding her that this is her home, too. But it's clearly not home to Toni, and that's where the pages end.

[Host / Moderator]

Thank you so much, Judith. Yeah. Before we dive in, Colleen, Cece, I just want to say that the pages were so well written, the writing is so good on the line level, etc. I absolutely love the writing. So kudos to you there. I know how freaking hard query letters are, and plots, et cetera, but you've nailed the writing. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

All right, let's get to it. I can't believe we talked that long about the query letter.

I was like, what?

We still got work to do here. Okay, so main first question is, what year is this? The way that you are writing makes me think that this is, like, 2000. I didn't actually get that this was contemporary. You're nodding. Okay, so I actually think we might need a timestamp here because you had so the bedroom, you know, so pink, so covered in the pictures of boy bands and articles about makeup tips ripped out of Tiger beat in 17. So all of that still being up on the wall, like, if that was today's day and age, those pages would have been faded, disintegrating, sun damaged. Like, it would be almost impossible to keep, like, you know, those pages up from then to now. So we. I think we need a timestamp, which makes me, again, get into a whole thing about when this is said and why you chose not to set it in the present. But we can get to that in a little bit.

[Host / Moderator]

Okay.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know how to explain this, but I'm gonna do my best. I can't exactly figure out maybe, like, the essence of the relationship between our protagonist and the uncles. I got a little bit of an ick factor when you said, there's so much puberty dripping in that room, I could almost feel my hormones surging every time I entered it. And then the next line was, I've had more than enough of Uncle Max and Uncle Zero. So. And I couldn't. When I was reading the query, I was a bit like, okay, obviously people have relationships with their, like, extended family members. It is very normal to have these close families. And then we got to this, and I was like, that's a bit of an ick factor. So that could just be a coincidence of, like, you wrote that line and then that line came next. But if there is any ick factors would need to be addressed, if you know what I mean. But, yeah, so I would just say if that was an accident, restructure that it's an accident. Okay. I would try to separate those two. Those two thoughts and what's next. So when she goes into this whole, like, the hospice ladies explain the stages, you know, bargaining, depression, acceptance, didn't come necessarily in that exact order, even separately. This was a bit strange to me because wouldn't as an adult woman, she have gone through these stages of bargaining, depression, acceptance that with her mother, because she thought her mother died, so she should be intimately familiar with the stages of grief. And so it's just interesting to me that, like, the hospice lady said this when I just. It made me feel like we were meeting this character on a blank page instead of this character living a full life before we met her. It was. To me, I was just reading it as a blank page, page one character, when I would really want her to have this entire mental history of, like, all of her experiences with grief. So it's very it was a bit odd to me that, like, either she didn't refresh on the Internet, you know, or, like, last time I went through the stages of grief when I thought my mom died. You know what I mean? It was just really interesting to me that we just were like, and now we are in this grief, and this grief is separate from that grief. And grief, as Cece kind of alluded to, is, like this liminal thing that lives as an undercurrent throughout our lives, and how we, as our individuals access that grief can change and bubble up, and it's so complex. So I just thought I would revisit how you're expressing grief in those pages. The next thing was. I. I wasn't overly, like, surprised by all of this. Again, it's like she's sitting at the table, and we don't actually know she has the injury yet, but it is a very stationary opening of her just like, sitting at the table. I prefer something in motion. And again, because she's injured, she isn't in motion. But maybe we just need to explain, like, you know, she tried so hard to get up from the table, make a cup of coffee, or like, she wanted that cup of. She could see the cup of coffee on the counter. She can't get there. Even the desire to move could even be something to play with there. It was just very, like, you know, she's sitting at the kitchen table. One thing that you. You repeat yourself a couple times, and it could be one of those things where this is a draft that you've rewritten a bunch of times, and that's just how it goes. But you repeat multiple times that this is a triple decker and that she lives on the top, and the uncles, or her and her dad lived on the top and the uncles live on the bottom. So you'll see in my notes when repeat yourself there. One of the things I find really tricky with this opening, and again, Cece can also get into this as well, is I actually don't think we're starting in the right place because we're starting with grief. And grief is a very, very hard thing to center at the beginning of the story because we can't mourn a person we don't know. That makes it very hard. It makes us, again, very hard to. Because we don't know the man, we don't know the dad. And also, again, you didn't create a through line of her grief to connect like the mother. And then all of these things together in a way that felt, again, like this story lives beyond these pages. So I would say we're probably not starting in the right place, in my opinion. I would like to get to the physical stuff faster. In terms of, like, her hip, I think that is probably where we have to start in some way of, like, her not being able to do what she wants to do because of the hip, potentially, that could be something. I don't know. I just get. I just think it's really hard to start with grief. I think it's really hard to start a couple days after a funeral because that's when everybody's gone. Like, you know, my uncle died a couple weeks ago, and it was like this whole thing of, like, you bring the family together and everybody's there and.

You'Re happy to see them, but you're.

Also really sad because it's like, that's the reason it brought everybody together. And it's so complex. And you chose to focus on the moment when she was alone. Of all the things of a funeral experience and death to focus on, it was very solitary. So, yeah, those are my reasons why I don't think we're starting in the right place.

[Host / Moderator]

I'll let Cece jump in just before CeCe jumps in. What do you both think about, like, there being causality in terms of she finds out about her father's death, and then because she is so distracted by her father's death, but she still has to go up on stage and then she injures herself or something. Like, if we see these awful things happening, finding out about her father, then because of that, because again, causality, not satellite plot elements, she's distracted, and so she hurts her hip. And so we see these two important things being taken from her. And, you know, her finding out about the father is the inciting incident, but we actually see it on the page. I don't know. Carly and Cece, what do you think? I'm trying to. To think of more plot elements in terms of the current day timeline.

[Carly Waters]

I like that because it also would have to get her home. The fact that we're already home is that boring part. That's the part where it's like, we're in her grief and we're already in the house. And, like, I think what Bianca's getting at is like, there's some energy. You know, there's a performance, this happens. She has to get on a plane, come home. There is a bit of movement there, which I think would also explain the difference between her life as a stage ballerina to her walking up to the third Trying to get again injured. How did she even get up to this third floor walk up of this apartment? So that imbalance, what Bianca is getting at, I think would be really interesting.

[Host / Moderator]

Cece.

[Cece Lira]

It could work for sure. I think that to build off on what Carly said, I don't think this is starting in the right place. But before I tell you why not, I do want to say this. First of all, the writing, like Judith, I kept highlighting passages and then I was like, stop it. You're not adding anything by complimenting her all the time. But I have to read one. The hospice ladies made it sound like the stages of grief were couples arriving at a dinner party or a bowling team gathering for league play. Like, brava. Truly so great. And not just the writing, but also something I'm always looking out for is writing emotion really well. And a sign of writing emotion really well is layers of emotion. You know, to me, a beginner writer is like, oh, the character is sad, period. An advanced writer does what you did, which is, again, I'm going to have to read your own words back to you. But my heart ached at the thought of it. But the ache quickly turned back into a simmering anger. It was easier to be mad at it all than to feel the sadness. The size and depth of the sadness, the bottomless black hole of it, scared me. You have so many emotions, and I don't even know how many words this was, but not many. And that, that takes a really like, advanced writer to pull that off. And it's interesting because most people I talk to struggle with writing emotion and writing on a line level way more than they struggle with tension and plot points. And every person's different. But I think that a huge part of evolving as a writer is self diagnosing. I will diagnose you, of course, but your self diagnosis is the one that matters because different people are going to be telling you different things. My diagnosis is you're doing all these things really well. Writing on a line level, writing emotion, and actually think the heart of your story too. But you need to work on the tension, which is not a secret or surprise to you because we've been talking about the plot and the need for plot and the need for causality, the right place to start. This needs to have a focus on curiosity, not a focus on empathy right now. And you mentioned this when you were describing what happens in your pages. Everything about these pages is designed to make me feel empathy, and I do. And it's designed to establish her history, what got her here, what she's feeling. And again, so well written what she's feeling. But you should, in my opinion, leverage curiosity. So there's lots of opportunity to do that. If you start in a different place and it might be Bianca's idea, it might be something, something else. But, you know, we need to have a clear sense of her place in the world. Not the entire planet, her world. Right. Like the power she wields and the power that people have over her. We have a disruption. That disruption needs to cause a shift in her story, forward expectations. And to do that, you need a shift in the power dynamics, either revelation of greater power dynamics or change in power dynamics. So Bianca's idea actually, actually works really well because her current position in the world, ballerina up and coming, moving up in the world. That's her current position in the world. Disruption two part, really, because it's learning about her dad and getting injured. And then the shift, meaning her story, forward expectations from page one to page five or however long it's going to take are now different because she was expecting to make it in the audition. She was expecting to land the lead role. Maybe it's not even an audition. Maybe she has the lead role and this is like a dress rehearsal and her, her big, you know, her big thing is coming on and all of a sudden, well, no, now I can't even go up the stairs. To Carly's point, the really interesting regression of her physicality, of the power of her body. You know, she used to be able to hold her entire body in their tippy, tippy toes, which is, let's face it, really hard. And now she can't go upstairs, you know, and there's just so much there that's interesting. I just think that you're really close to having a gem, and I'm excited for you. And at the same time, I'm like, man, Judith has a lot of work to do, and we're just giving her all these things, you know, so.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I'm mindful of that.

[Cece Lira]

I'm mindful that we're giving you a lot, just so you know.

[Host / Moderator]

So, Judith, we have, like about three minutes for you to ask any questions or make any observations that you have. I know we've thrown a lot at you. We've been brainstorming, but it's because we love the writing and we love the story, and we really are trying to help you just get it to that next level.

[Judith Jaeger]

I really do appreciate all of this, and my wheels are already turning. I will say I've gone through maybe eight Drafts of this already, which I know you all know the pain of that. So I will be thinking about how to do this in the best way possible for me to not be tearing this up down, starting from the ground up again. But this is all very helpful feedback to me. And I will say, cece, that I focused a lot on interiority. Thanks to a lot of your classes that I took on interiority. I have my emotion thesaurus.

[Cece Lira]

What you're saying is it's my fault.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

You're saying it's my fault.

[Carly Waters]

100%.

[Judith Jaeger]

So much focused on emotion, and it's so much what I think about now when I write.

[Carly Waters]

Sorry.

[Judith Jaeger]

I'm already well into my next novel and always thinking about connecting and thinking about, well, what is this character feeling in this moment, though? Like, I think. I do think that's really important in any reader's experience. So it's all your fault, cece.

[Host / Moderator]

You've done that really well, Judith. And the. And the thing is not ripping everything apart and starting again, because if you're anything like me, I always start 8 to 10 chapters too far into the future. Whenever I start, I have to backtrack, and then I start eight to ten chapters before. So I just feel it's not ripping the whole thing apart. It's going, where is she now? Let's backtrack. Let's put it on the page. What we're telling the reader is backstory. And, you know, that's like part of the. Of the big thing, which. Which, again, is not ripping it apart. It's just starting earlier. But you will figure that out, Judith, and we will be here cheering you on. We wish you so much luck with this. And yeah, like. Like I said, the writing is just incredible. So few people can write that well on a line level. So you've got that nailed. It's just figuring out the domino's tipping well.

[Judith Jaeger]

It's an important thing to have nailed, so I'm grateful for that.

[Host / Moderator]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It is very important. Okay, everybody, that's it from us today with our books and hooks. Next week, we'll be back with another author interview and back again in two weeks with another books with Hooks. Thanks so much, everyone.

[Carly Waters]

Bye.

[Judith Jaeger]

Thank you.

[Carly Waters]

Bye.

[Bianca Murray]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Association.

[Host / Moderator]

If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency have.

[Bianca Murray]

You been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup?

[Host / Moderator]

Or have you signed up before but.

[Bianca Murray]

Haven'T as yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique them. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writing we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.