Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Balancing Emotional Depth and Action In Your Story

Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guest Author: Judith Jaeger

Episode Overview

In this episode, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe are joined by author Judith Jaeger for the "Books with Hooks" segment. They provide an in-depth critique of Judith's query letter and opening pages for her women's fiction manuscript, The Family We Choose. The episode centers on the persistent challenge for many writers: achieving the right balance between emotional depth (interiority) and on-page action (plot) to create a compelling, marketable novel.

While celebrating Judith’s exquisite line-level writing and mastery of emotional layering, the conversation probes the pitfalls of "quiet" novels that lack sufficient external stakes and causality, offering practical strategies for strengthening story engines and tightening plot.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Query Letter Critique: Finding the Story’s Heart

• Clarity of Stakes and Tone

  • Carly raises concerns about the genre positioning and ambiguity in the query: "Is it dangerous? Are people dying? I just couldn't quite figure out the tone element there." (06:54)
  • Both agents urge Judith to be specific about the protagonist's external stakes (her career in ballet, the family secrets, risk of loneliness), steering away from vagueness and overblown emotional language.

• Plot vs. Emotional Weight

  • CeCe observes that, while the query gestures at deep emotional wounds, it lacks clear external conflict: "In stories where so much of the plot hinges on the past, as agents, we often think, well, why isn't the story taking place in the past?... We need present day conflict." (12:07)

• Advice on Author Bio

  • CeCe recommends omitting mention of Judith’s prior novel unless it was a breakout success: "This industry only wants debuts or people with great established track records... I would remove that." (15:40)
  • Carly offers a less severe option: only mention facts, not marketing achievements, unless the book won awards or sold many copies.

2. Unpacking Structure & Stakes: Braiding Emotional and Plot Momentum

• Diagnosis of a “Quiet” Novel

  • CeCe discusses how writers often focus on root causes—developing interiority and emotional nuance—but neglect the causality and urgency that drive stories forward, cautioning, "You are framing your story in a way that is lowering all the stakes." (12:59)

• Present-Day Engine & Ticking Clock

  • Both agents agree the manuscript’s present-day arc lacks urgency:
    • Carly: "We need a ticking time clock... Is it finances? Or they're gonna be kicked out of the apartment?... She has to get back to the stage." (28:38)
    • Judith shares that Toni, the protagonist, must recover by the end of summer or lose her ballet career spot—a workable ticking clock.

• Plot Causality: An Example

  • CeCe demonstrates possible causal plotting:
    • "She has to get out, gets the letter... [makes] this bargain. She's now trying to do the ballet school thing, her mom shows up... Complication number one... She tells a lie with good intentions, but it’s a bad lie..." (31:29-34:26)
    • The story should be structured so "one thing leads to the other," propelling both plot and character.

• Dual Timeline Consideration

  • Bianca suggests a dual past/present timeline might help manage backstory while focusing on current narrative momentum. CeCe agrees, but emphasizes that wouldn't fix the absence of a present-day engine: "You still would have to come up with a present day arc. And... you do not have one." (27:01)

3. First Pages Analysis: Emotional Power vs. Narrative Tension

• Writing Craft Praise

  • All hosts laud Judith’s line-level writing and emotional layering:
    • CeCe: "A sign of writing emotion really well is layers of emotion... that takes a really advanced writer to pull that off." (44:17)
    • Bianca: "The writing is just incredible. So few people can write that well on a line level. So you've got that nailed." (49:32)

• Starting at the Right Moment

  • Carly believes the manuscript starts too late: "It's really hard to start with grief... We can't mourn a person we don't know." (40:41)
  • Prefers opening with action—perhaps the on-stage injury—rather than Toni alone after the funeral.

• Creating Immediate Curiosity

  • CeCe suggests leveraging reader curiosity (via plot movement, power shifts, and stakes) instead of opening in a static emotional state: "This needs to have a focus on curiosity, not a focus on empathy right now." (44:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Specificity and Stakes in Queries

  • Carly: "That line means nothing to me... I think it has to go, or you just got to get more specific." (06:54)

• On Emotional Depth vs. Plot

  • CeCe: "You are framing your story in a way that is lowering all the stakes... for your query letter, we must lead with the juicy conflict. And I don't know what the juicy conflict is." (12:59)

• On Industry Realities in Author Bios

  • CeCe: "This industry only wants debuts or people with great established track records. I do think you should mention [your previous novel] when you have CH agents, but... I would remove that." (15:40)

• On Plot Construction and Causality

  • CeCe: "One thing leads to the other, which leads to the other... That's what your query letter needs to focus on." (34:10)

• On Praise for Writing Skill

  • CeCe: "I have to read one. 'The hospice ladies made it sound like the stages of grief were couples arriving at a dinner party or a bowling team gathering for league play.' Like, brava. Truly so great." (44:17)

• On Addressing the Real Writer’s Challenge

  • Bianca: "Few people can write that well on a line level. So you've got that nailed. It's just figuring out the domino's tipping well." (49:32)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [02:59] — Judith Jaeger reads her query letter.
• [06:54] — Carly provides big-picture feedback on query’s tone, stakes, and specificity.
• [12:07] — CeCe zeroes in on the need for present-day plot and urgency.
• [15:40] — CeCe & Carly discuss pros/cons of mentioning a previous book in the bio.
• [18:56] — Judith details the family secrets and the nearly fatal accident turning point.
• [27:01] — Hosts discuss potential for a dual timeline and urgency in the present.
• [31:29-34:26] — CeCe presents a possible plotting structure to illustrate causality.
• [35:55] — Judith summarizes her novel’s opening pages.
• [37:11-42:53] — Carly and CeCe critique the opening pages and discuss ideal starting points.
• [44:17] — CeCe and hosts praise Judith's line-level writing and emotional layering.
• [49:32] — Bianca gives final encouragement and takeaway advice.

Actionable Takeaways for Writers

• Lead with specificity and clear external stakes in your query.
• Emotional depth is vital—but must be matched by causality, urgency, and present action that moves the story forward.
• When in doubt, identify a "ticking clock" for your protagonist and ensure every major character desire is tied to concrete consequences.
• Static scenes of grief or backstory work best after the reader is invested. Openings should hook via curiosity, immediacy, or power shifts.

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in balancing emotional resonance with narrative propulsion. Judith's talent for writing emotion is roundly praised, but the hosts’ advice—delivered with candor and warmth—reminds all writers that readers are ultimately drawn forward by suspense, stakes, and forward movement. The episode offers practical, actionable strategies for “quiet” novelists to inject plot without sacrificing psychological complexity.