← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
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- [00:00]
Bianca Marais
Would you like to stand a chance of winning a registration for our upcoming Deep Dive Virtual Retreat so you can learn from incredible agents, editors and authors while also having the chance of winning life changing prizes? Head to the shitaboutwriting.com and go to the Deep Dive page. Scroll down past all the details of the amazing lineup to find an image that you can share on your socials along with the reasons why you would like to attend. Use the hashtag Deep diveorbust and tag the podcast. Each post gets you a ticket into the draw. The contest ends at midnight on the 23rd of January and the winner will be announced on the 24th. We hope it's going to be you Are you looking for the perfect gift for the writer in your life? Are you the favorite writer in your life and you want to gift yourself something awesome? Then come take a look at the Ultimate Planner for writers for 2025. It not only allows to plan for your regular day to day with hourly time slots, it also allows you to brainstorm, research, plot outline, do scene planning and vision boarding all in one. And it's available as a physical planner or as an e planner. Check out Bianca Marais and find the Planner for Writers tab for more information. Remember to order early to avoid the end of year rush.
- [01:28]
Carly Waters
Foreign.
- [01:34]
Bianca Marais
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. I have a feeling this one is going to be interesting because there was a little bit of back and forward last night on Slack as we were discussing discussing one of the queries for today. So let's see what's going to happen, right? Cece, will you please kick us off with the first query?
- [02:09]
Cece Lira
Dear Ms. Marie, Ms. Waters and Ms. Lyra, thank you for your podcast that you manage with kindness, attention and love. It has helped me evolve as it has helped me evolve a great deal as a writer. And I suspect I'm far from the only one. Ms. Lyra, if you love strong, queer, female, morally ambiguous protagonists operating within dysfunctional family environments, what better place to look than Mount Olympus? I am seeking representation for my debut novel Apples of Discord, an 85,000 word mythological fiction novel written in multiple first person POV. Readers of Madeline Miller's Circe will enjoy this work which follows three Greek goddesses as they attempt to negotiate with Zeus's patriarchal misogynistic reign, leading each of them down very different paths. Fans of the White Queen and the Red Queen by Philippa Gregory will also like following multiple female characters forced to make difficult choices, often at the expense of each other. Trouble is brewing on Mount Olympus, and Hera, Aphrodite and Athena must decide where their loyalties lie. Hera is the queen of the gods. After a long battle with their forebearers, the Titans, she and her husband Zeus now rule the world. But when each of Zeus choices brings the gods closer to the brink of war, she must decide whether Olympus would benefit off without him. Athena, goddess of war, is Zeus favorite child, but she hopes to avenge her mother's disappearance without arousing her father's suspicions. While fighting Olympus enemies for him, however, she sees what a world without Zeus would look like when the Olympians, led by Hera, decide that they have had enough of their king. Whose side will Athena choose? Aphrodite is the goddess of love, the only Olympian with no direct blood ties to Zeus. He is forever suspicious of her abilities, though the other gods see her as nothing more than a trophy to be had. But who knows what goes on beside the facade of Olympus fairest piety? I am a Franco Indian social media strategist. My nonfiction articles and reviews have been published in various digital publications and my short fiction has appeared in Gezi, India's first and only queer print magazine. I have been obsessed with Greek mythology since I was 10 years old when I wrote my first ever short story about Hephaestus, published exclusively on my mother's fridge. I live in Paris, France with my two partners and our rescue puppy, Diego, also known fondly as Smelly Awesome Cece.
- [04:57]
Bianca Marais
Okay, what was the word count there? And can you give us your take on that?
- [05:02]
Cece Lira
Okay, so this one came in at 410 words. So from the top. Love the hook, love the premise. Very exciting. Greek mythology. I know we have a lot of that in the market, but it's one of those things where I feel like, you know, there's always space for a new fresh one. I don't think you need to share that your novel is written in multiple first person point of view. It's just not necessary information. Multi pov. Yes, we need to know that. But the fact that it's in first person versus third or second whatever else, we don't need to know that when it comes to the hook in the opening paragraph, the fact that these three goddesses have to negotiate. I didn't know that negotiate was the strongest verb. It seems like we're talking about fighting and I just Feel like negotiating makes it seem a little bit more polite and civilized. And I feel like you're leaking tension there. Then it says, negotiate. With Zeus's patriarchal, misogynistic reign leading each of them down very different paths. Now, as a hook sentence, I thought it was on the vague side, but I was like, okay, because it's just a hook sentence. Like, I'll get to the plot paragraph soon and, like, I'll figure out what the specific plot is, because I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what these negotiations or this fight or whatever it is looks like. I did like the clause that said, often at the expense of each other, because typically when you have loyalties conflicting and sacrifices needing to take place, that ups the stakes in storytelling. So I was really interested in that. We have another line that says, trouble is brewing and Mount Olympus, and they must decide where their loyalties lie. And I'm like, okay, you don't need this line because you've already told us that before, right? So you're just repeating yourself at this point. And then we have three mini, mini paragraphs, one for each of the goddesses. It's obviously up to you, but when I read it, I thought to myself, okay, I don't know what this story looks like. Here are the kinds of lines that, in my opinion, need to be nixed, and then new lines need to be written in their place. She must decide whether Olympus would be better off without him. Like, I don't know what that looks like. That's super, super vague. Like, are we talking. She's killing him. As you can tell by my notes, I want a lot of specificity. So I don't know what that looks like. And I really wanted to know. I also think that this mistake keeps happening in the other paragraphs too. With Athena, you have decide that they have had enough. Whose side will she choose? Like, again, there's. There's like two lines before about the choosing of sides and the choosing of loyalty. So I just don't need another one, especially when it's not telling me anything new. So I get that this is central to your story, and it's an excellent thing to be central in a story, but specifically, what happens to each of these women regarding their own relationships, not regarding the world building, about. About them as goddesses. I was going to say as people, but I guess they're not people. Aphrodite's paragraph is the least strong one because her major dramatic question is, but who knows what goes on beside the facade of Olympus's fairest God. And I'm like, well, no, because that's not telling me anything in terms of conflict. Right. Like, who knows what's going on behind someone's facade is interesting, but not as a major dramatic question. So my big picture note for this query letter is that you're telling me a little bit about each goddess, you know, what kind of goddess they are. You're telling me they have a problem with Zeus, but I'm not clear on the shape of the plot. Like, what are the escalating plot points? What is actually. Is the inciting incident specifically, other than, like, they begin to imagine a world without Zeus? Because that's very interior. How is the relationship between these three women going to come together in a compelling way? It's possible. This is such a big, ambitious story that it's really hard to distill. And I feel for you because it does sound super ambitious, filled with world building, like, so, again, all the empathy, but you still have to do it. So, you know, feel very confident in your hook, But I think you need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite the plot. Paragraph.
- [08:57]
Bianca Marais
Yeah, really a tough query letter to write for this kind of story. So I'm really feeling you there. Okay, Carly, what have you got to add?
- [09:05]
Carly Waters
All right, well, I agree with everything that CeCe said. I mean, at the end of the day, I would probably recommend this person to kind of rewrite it from after the comps to the author bio. Like, I kind of be rewriting that whole thing, because to me, I actually don't think the hook is very clear. I think this is an incredibly dramatic setting. And because we have historical knowledge of this mythology, we have in the back of our mind an assumption about this world and a base knowledge of this world. I think we're relying too much on the reader's base knowledge of this mythology, not actually giving us enough of what is specific about this story. I've talked about this book series on the show before, Neon Gods. It is a kind of retelling of Greek mythology and what I think that series does really well and how it sets itself apart, knowing that the story's been told many times, is that it's a series. So it does have kind of, like a larger arc of what it's working through in this world. But each book has its own, like, very specific plot about, you know, between these characters, what is exactly happening in a dramatic sense. So I don't actually feel like I know what's going to happen in this book at All I do agree with you, the line, often at the expense of each other, is an excellent line. But to me, like, that's not a book. That's just some information about why these characters are kind of pulled together in this sense. In my reading of this, this feels like three separate people on three separate journeys. Because I don't actually know how all of this difficult choices are happening at the expense of each other. Because you're not telling me what's at stake if these people don't follow through with whatever goal and task they're set out to do as characters. So, I mean, I think there is probably a very interesting story underneath here, but I don't feel like I actually know what it is. And so that's kind of what I'm saying about, like, we're relying on our historical knowledge of this mythology more than I think that we should be. But I love the comps. Again, I think there's something under here, but I just want to know why this story is special and unique and why these three characters and why now and all of that.
- [11:02]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, and I think that's true for most retellings, right? It doesn't matter what the retelling is of, like, why this specific retelling, why now? What does it add, you know, to all the work that is already out there? All right, so, Cece, we're now going to go to the pages, if you can tell us what was in them.
- [11:20]
Cece Lira
Okay, so here's what happens in the opening pages. So Aphrodite is in the celebration of Zeus's wedding to Hera, which has been going on for 300 years, because that's how the Gods party. She wishes to leave, but the marriage marks the end of the Titans rule. And her association with the Titans means that she cannot act like she doesn't want to be there. So she needs to stay, lest she risk any, like, rousing any suspicion or disapproval. So then suddenly, Zeus bends over in his throne, a bolt of lightning crashes before him, and in a conversation with another goddess, Aphrodite learns that Zeus is actually giving birth. So then Prometheus strikes Zeus with an axe, and all of a sudden, this woman appears. This fully grown woman whose beauty rivals Aphrodite's beauty.
- [12:14]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, cece. God, a 300 year party. This sounds like hell to my introverted self. Get the hell out of there, man. Run. Okay, what was your take on these pages?
- [12:25]
Cece Lira
All right, so I'll. I'll start from the top, and I have a big picture note but let's start with micro stuff. So the very first page, very first paragraph, we have the following line. We had been celebrating the marriage of Zeus to hera for almost 300 years now, and the gods had drunk themselves sick many times over. Luckily, our divine servants made quick work of things. If you are a God and you're surrounded by other gods, you're not thinking, the gods have drunk themselves. You're thinking people. Like, not people, but like everyone. You know, like, I'm human and I'm around other humans, right? So I don't go, the humans are blah, blah, blah. No one thinks that. You just think everyone has drunk themselves sick many times over. So her interiority right now is focused on conveying information to the reader, which is what authors think their job is. It is not. Your job is not to convey information. Your job is to entertain and seduce. So I think that it's more important for you to honor what you would actually think and then have that unfold in a seductive way as opposed to, like, rush to give context. I have a feeling, and I kind of wish I could talk to you about this, but I had a feeling that you were like, let me make sure that I tell everyone exactly what is going on from the very beginning, because I want to be sure to be transparent and clear. And it's weird, but it's almost like transparency are bad traits in storytelling because it leaks tension. This is an easy fix. You just have to go into her interiority and just allow the true interiority to come out. At times you were using the gods lowercase. At times you were using the gods uppercase. And so obviously make that consistent. I guess I'll go to the big picture note now, but I don't think you're starting in the right way. I'm not saying you're starting in the wrong place. There's a difference. There's a difference between the right place and the right way. You might be in the right place, but not the right way, or vice versa. The framing of this is focused on world building. You're not focused on the characters and the relationships. I think that you should rely on the emotional entryway technique, which is very effective in historical fiction, fantasy, sci fi, anything that involves massive amounts of world building. And that is a technique through which you focus on the very relatable part of a relationship, of a conflict, of something that's full of tension and compelling, that's happening in that scene that could be happening in any world. A couple trying to conceive a person being nervous to give a presentation in front of a boss, a best friend who's jealous of her other friend, something like that, something that could be happening anywhere. And then as a backdrop, you have this world. You are focusing on the world, the narration of this, the protagonist is acting more like a camera than a person. Because I'm getting a description of what's happening and it's excellent description, so good job. But I want it to be inside her own unique perspective. Like it was her unique point of view that I wanted more of. A few examples, every time a new God came up, it was Demeter, goddess of harvest, Prometheus, God of fire and the forge. And I was like, I don't think that you would be thinking these things. It's too explanation heavy. And again, it comes back to the whole you're. You're nervous about explaining and anxious about explaining instead of thinking that your. Your job is to seduce, which in my opinion, it is. I do think that there's a line here that mentions it's. It's one I even mentioned in the summary that she can't leave because she can't arouse suspicion. That was a line that I was like, oh, okay, you're gonna, you're gonna give me character now? But that's all I got. I didn't get much more. So my theory is you have a really well developed character. You're just. You're thinking that you're gonna hook the reader through the world building. And I don't think that that's the case. I think you're gonna hook the reader through the characters, through the specific messy relationship, messy dynamics. Here's another example. For the first time in her life, I think, I assume she feels jealousy when she sees this woman who's more beautiful than she is. I do know she feels jealousy because you have that, but you didn't give me context on whether it was the first time she felt the emotion, which I think it was. So it's things like that that you can use to develop a unique socio emotional framework and just a unique character. So it really is about leveraging her as. As a protagonist, her as not a camera, but as someone with feelings and thoughts and so much depth. It just makes a big, big difference to me. So. And I think this is happening again because you're relying too much on the Greek mythology of it all. I know that this will likely sound really weird to you because you're going to be like, cece, I am pitching you a book about Mount Olympus. You don't want me to rely on the Greek mythology of it all. Like, what is wrong with you? And I still stand by what I'm saying. Because too much focus on world building in a way that doesn't feel natural and is just too explanation heavy is not going to make me or anyone else specifically curious about your story. It's going to make me curious about Greek mythology. Right. And that's not what you want. What you want is, hey, what about this specific emotion, this specific plot point? So here are examples of what you could insert and focus on instead. The messy relationship between her and the other women with lots of specificity, giving her a clear goal besides enduring the wedding. Right. So she has agency, like something she has to do in this scene and something she's trying to pretend like she doesn't have to do, like manipulating and hiding. You could leverage the fact that she needs to look above suspicion. It could be a strong source of tension. If you play it right, there could be like a note that slipped to her and she could be trying to pretend like she didn't get the note up. I mean, there's a million things, right? But I guess I. I will never figure out what you should add, but I hope that by brainstorming with you, I can inspire you to. To think of something that could leverage this. I will say that the birth of a woman whose beauty rivals her own at the very end is a very nice surprise to this, but that takes five pages. So I'd still recommend rewriting this to focus the very, very opening of the scene into something that's a lot more character specific and focused on her own plot in the story.
- [18:35]
Carly Waters
I know you've been following along with my vacation updates. And as you know, we're off to France this summer between the French Riviera and Paris. I am going to need some French language training so I do not embarrass myself abroad. And I will be working on my French with Rosetta Stone all winter to get ready. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. And it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. My husband and I are both going to focus on Rosetta Stone together as a New Year's resolution. So we're ready for vacation and to set a good example for the kids culturally, because learning a language of where you're traveling to is a sign of respect. We can't always assume that people speak English. We love Rosetta Stone. It is a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered there is fast language acquisition Rosetta Stone immerses you in many ways. There are no English translations, so you really get to speak, listen and think in your new language. It's an intuitive process designed to pick up a language naturally, first with words, then phrases, then sentences. There is speech recognition. They have a true accent feature which gives you feedback on your pronunciation. It is convenient. There is flexible learning on an app or desktop or laptop. On your schedule, there's amazing value A lifetime membership of 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. That's lifetime Access to all 25 language courses Rosetta Stone offers for 50% off a steal Start the new year off with a resolution you can reach today. The shit about writing listeners can take advantage of this Rosetta Stone lifetime membership offer for 50% off visit RosettaStone.com today. That's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% off@RosettaStone.com today. Today get a book deal is on many 2025 New Year's resolution lists for our listeners. But working in the creative industry, I've seen lots of writers and illustrators feel squeamish around money conversations. And what is a book deal but a financial offer for your creative output? We should all love talking about money. As a literary agent, I love talking about money and how its growth can improve people's lives. And that's why debunking money conversations are important. Like many people think you need loads of money to start investing, or they put off investing because it seems like a later problem. Or creatives who deal with art and writing don't have time or passion to research and manage something like investments. That is why I'm thrilled that today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. You've heard me talk about Acorns before. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. Growing up as a young girl who was told she wasn't good at math, investing definitely scared me. But I am very proud to say that I've overcome all those mindset concerns and I love talking about investing and how money can be given a chance to grow over time with acorns. Head to acorns.com T S N O-T Y A W or download the Acorns app and start saving and investing for your future today. This is a paid non client endorsement compensation. Provides incentive to Positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorn Advisors LLC is an SEC registered advisement investor. View important disclosures@acorns.com T S N O T Y a W thank you, Cece.
- [22:08]
Bianca Marais
Two things I want to add to that so for our listeners. Keep in mind how important POV is in terms of approaching the narrative. So saying the gods had drunk themselves sick many times over. That's something you can pull off in the third person. But like Cece said, if you're writing this from the first person and that person is a God, they are not going to think of themselves as gods, they're just going to think of self. We have all been partying hard people. So when you approach POV and story, that's one of the things that you really need to think about is how much you can get into the protagonist's head in terms of conveying the story through the lens of their thoughts and their experience. Another is in terms of saying so and so, the God of this so and so the God of that. Pick up Voyage of the Damned we had Francis White on the podcast. Voyage of the Damned has got so many different characters. There's a lot of world building there and each person is the head of like a different territory or a different province, and it's important for the reader to keep track of them. But she introduced them in a very organic way. So it wasn't so and so in charge of this province, etc. So it always helps to look at people who've done something really well that you are trying to nail as well. Okay, Carly, your thoughts.
- [23:25]
Carly Waters
You guys have made excellent points. There's two notes that I had that I wanted to address, which is I agree with what Cece was saying about how you have to find something normal within the abnormal in terms of like this, this bigger world. I think that would be the right way to enter into this scene specifically. But there are a lot of characters and it is very chaotic. So we're entering into an incredibly just kind of stressful environment for the reader because we're entering into a party 300 years in. We have no idea what's going on. We don't understand the relations really to each other. It's very chaotic and to be perfectly honest with you, vomit is gross. So when we start a book with something that's gross, you have to think about how the reader interprets that and the framework you're kind of setting us up for. I mean, there's like multiple mentions of vomit. Sorry, everybody. So, you know, that's like we're entering into a very chaotic scene and situation. And it almost felt like the vomit was mentioned because they wanted to talk about how the servants were kind of like taking care of the situation. And so I was like, okay, are you trying to talk about class dynamics? There's like a million other ways to talk about class dynamics without kind of going on and on about vomit. Okay. The other thing is, I think what I'm struggling with a bit is I don't understand your version of this world enough to understand the magnitude of what was happening in these opening pages. Because kind of like I mentioned in the query, there is a baseline kind of assumption or understanding and some people have more and some people have less of Greek mythology and these types of characters. I don't understand your take on this world because again, you're bringing us into such a chaotic moment. I want to know why you wrote the story, why now? What's your take? What's your spin? And I just feel like I didn't really get it in these pages and I needed to understand your version of this world to understand the magnitude of what was happening in these, in these key scenes. So that's my notes.
- [25:17]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly.
- [25:18]
Carly Waters
Yeah.
- [25:18]
Bianca Marais
For the author, this is a hugely ambitious, ambitious project. You've got a heck of a lot going on here, lots of characters, you've got an existing sort of mythology. You're bringing your own spin on it. So it's going to be tough. And kudos to you for taking on something like this because it's. Yeah. Hats off to you. Okay. Right. We are now moving on to Carly's query. Will you please read that for us?
- [25:46]
Carly Waters
Dear Carly, as a longtime fan of the show, I need your expertise. Please. I would love your feedback on the first five pages of my 80k word Rom com. The yes Gal. The wedding planner meets Persuasion in this second chance romance in the vein of Julie Soto's Forget Me not perfect for fans of Emily, Henry and Abby Ivanas. 32 year old Rena James knows how to get people to say yes. Her career as a marriage proposal planner depends on it. But personally, her favorite word is no. No to her boss's ill judged proposal ideas which threaten to fully sink their floundering company. No to her parents insistence that she joined the lucrative family business like her sister. No to hibernating her pet tortoise. Despite what potential boyfriends think. When her company gets hired to plan a proposal to a prominent social media influencer, Rena can't believe their luck. A successful proposal live streamed to millions of followers would salvage the yes gals, maybe even her parents opinion of her career choice. But then Rena makes a gut wrenching discovery. The client is none other than Jesse Foster, the man she turned down 12 years ago. The one no she always regretted. Determined to save her career, Rena says yes to planning her biggest proposal yet. So what if it involves a few cross country trips with Jesse to scope out potential proposal spots. She can be professional, but the more Rena gets reacquainted with the one she let get away, she can't help but wonder if she's making the worst mistake of her life again. I'm a writer and editor for a non profit and hold a BA in Creative Writing from the University of South Florida. Although now back in my Florida hometown I lived in the UK for 10 years where I married a Brit, discovered a love of tea, and became a mother to two rambunctious boys. I am part of an amazing critique group and have been published multiple times on litro's online platform. Thank you for your consideration and feedback. Yours sincerely, Shannon Evans.
- [27:33]
Bianca Marais
Thank you Carly. Okay, what was the word count there and what's your take on that?
- [27:39]
Carly Waters
This one clocked in at 345 words, which is a very tidy amount of words. So well done there. All right, so let me just start at the top. I think your comps are good. Persuasion is always a bit interesting to me whenever we're kind of going there with the classics because you're not saying like this is a retelling or anything like that. Speaking of retellings on the show today, you're kind of just like nodding to it. So I. I don't know if we need it to be perfectly honest with you. Could be again something that I'm not understanding as a reference point just because I haven't read the whole book, but I would keep the comps in the contemporary setting. All right, next is. Okay, so I would say it all sounds like a little bit young to me. I don't know what it is. It might just be kind of the social media influencer stuff and I don't know like the this idea that she's 32 years old and her parents still don't kind of Understand or support her job choice. Like, it felt a little bit like coming of age, new adult ish. But she's 32, so again, could just be. I haven't read the whole book at this point, so I'm not understanding the kind of maturity level of our character. One thing that I would definitely mention is where this is set and I would add it in. When you have, like when her company gets hired, I would add it in. I'm pretty sure it's Chicago based on the pages we read. That'll come back to me once we get to those. But yeah, I. I don't know, I just think there's something about the texture. It will, I don't know, it will just add a little bit more, I think, to the situation. Prominent social media influencer in the middle of nowhere town is very different than prominent social media influencer in New York City or something like that. So I do think there's a bit of context there. So I would definitely add the city. Okay. So I think my. One of my biggest just question marks with this query is I get really nervous about books whose plot hinges on social media because it makes the entire framework of the book contingent on being in a certain era or a certain bubble or our understanding of how social media is reflected in our culture in this exact moment. And so, like, we don't know, you know, where social media is going to be in a couple years and what our relationship is going to be. And so I sometimes worry that it's going to kind of make it stuck in a certain time setting and maybe not age very well. And then I was kind of thinking about that as I was putting together my notes. And like, every book is a product of the time that it was written in. So I don't know, I think I'm particularly sometimes just hard on books that have social media settings because, I don't know, maybe I just. That's something that I feel strongly about because as I said, I do think all books are a product of their time. But there's something about social media that in some ways, even though it's been around for 20 years at this point does feel fleeting and it evolves as a technology. So again, these are just my own, my own assumptions that I bring to the table in that regard. I love this whole, you know, setup of the actual query where, you know, she's trying to get people to say yes, but her favorite word is no. And then the gut wrenching discovery. The client is none other than Jesse Foster. I'm like, oh, it's great. I love that. So it felt very juicy in terms of the meet cute or the remake cute of these two kind of finding their way back to each other. I think that's super, super well done. Another question I had as I was reading though was, how does she feel about the other woman? Right. The influencer. Because, like, does she feel any guilt about this? And I'm not necessarily like, we have to go super deep in the query letter about her thoughts, but I don't know, I just kind of wonder, does she. How does she think about the other woman? How does she think about, you know, the. The person that he wants to get engaged to? Does she feel guilt? I. I don't know. I. As I said, I don't know if we can get into that in the query letter, but I was very curious about how somebody would feel about kind of like slipping into somebody's love story in that. In that way. So those are some things I was thinking about when I was reading this query letter. I think your author bio paragraph is awesome. So, yeah, I think your framework is. Is great. As I said, I just had my own kind of questions and potentially they would get answered in the pages.
- [31:44]
Bianca Marais
Awesome. Carly, thanks so much for that. Okay, Cece, we're handing it across to you.
- [31:49]
Cece Lira
This is such a fun query. Like, I know this is only airing in January, but it's December, early December when we're recording this. And as I was reading this last night, I even posted in my Instagram stories being like, I'm really excited about this query because lately I feel like all I've been doing is just poking holes in plot paragraphs and being like, not enough tension, not a compelling, enough major dramatic question or whatever other criticism I have. And like, no notes. This is great. I loved it. I thought it. I thought that job was so cool. Like a marriage proposal planner. That's like one of those quirky, fun jobs that's perfect for romcoms. I love it. I can. I can picture this book in bookshelves. So I think it's really fun for your story. As is no notes. I do have a note about something I think you should change because it's me and I can't help myself. It's not in your query letter unless you also change the story. You have a line that reads the one. No, she has always regretted this is a mistake. She cannot already know and already regret this. It should be the one. No, she's always second guessed. Why? Because her character arc is going to be like, I made this decision, I've always second guessed it, probably because she was. She felt she had to pick between, like, a career and, like, a proposal, whatever, right? And then in this character journey, she's going to go and she's going to realize that it's. It's regret. Maybe regret is the wrong word. But, yes, she should have said yes. But at the same time, she picked herself, and now she can have both, et cetera, et cetera, happy ending, blah, blah, blah. So I don't think that you should have that because it's too conclusive. And in the beginning of the story, she shouldn't have such a strong conclusion. It also makes the whole journey that she's going in kind of be like she. She regrets that she's still in love with him then. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I need her to, like, discover her feelings and come to grips with the fact that she's been, like, suppressing this. So I would change that line.
- [33:45]
Bianca Marais
Qcc okay, Carly, what's in the opening pages?
- [33:49]
Carly Waters
All right, so we start with two emails. We are kind of in work mode. We know what our character does for work. There is an email from the boss, Ursula, kind of talking about a certain proposal that they need to kind of set up for somebody. They want to go really big with the prop proposal. And then our main character, Reena, is kind of thinking, like, I don't want to go down that route with the big flash mob. She's more of, like, a quiet librarian type. And so she's kind of pushing back against her boss in the email. Then we start with chapter one. So we start kind of right in the moment where our main character and her kind of work bestie, are they kind of going to figure out exactly what the right proposal is going to be? They're breaking the first rule of their job, which is just don't make contact with the person who is going to be proposed to to kind of blow it. So they know they're breaking the rules, but they want to confirm that Reena is right, that they shouldn't do the flash mob and they should do a quieter proposal instead. And when we kind of get to see that the woman that's going to be proposed to, she's, like, reading a little book. And so our main character's like, I knew it. I was right. You know, we should never do a flash mob. We should do a nerdy little proposal instead. And that's where we end.
- [35:00]
Bianca Marais
Awesome. Okay, what was your take on them?
- [35:02]
Carly Waters
All right, so I actually didn't mind starting with the emails. I don't know. It didn't really bother me one way or the other. I don't know if other agents might have strong feelings on that, but didn't bother me at all. I felt like one of the things I think these pages do really well is they just really flow, you know, So I didn't really feel like I was taken out of the story. I felt like it just. That got me into the story. I knew we were in work mode, and then off we were to the races. I did really like the banter between these two work besties, Rena and Nixie. I thought they did an awesome job bouncing off of each other, kind of really bringing us into their work dynamic and. And you know exactly how they work together. I think the tone is really spot on for commercial fiction. I think one of the things that the best commercial novels do is they don't give you a second to put it down. And I think that's what. What these pages do. There was at no point where you're like, I need to put this down. You know, we are just barreling through. One of the things that I did kind of want to settle in a little bit to the scene, and you didn't let me. But again, it's. It's well done because in commercial fiction, we want to keep moving and moving and moving, and then we'll take a breath, you know, when the chapter is over or something like that. So I. Tonally, I think you nailed it. I think the banter was really well done. The only thing that I noted was I think you. I don't know if it opens like this or the whole pages are like this, but I don't think it's left aligned. I think it's whatever it's called when it pushes all the way to the sides, justified. So just make sure you're. You're left aligned on all of this. But yeah, other than that, I think it. I think it was fun.
- [36:32]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, I'm interested to hear your thoughts because this is a lot more sort of commercial than what your taste skews towards. And I know that you were quite excited about this, so tell us what you think.
- [36:45]
Cece Lira
I will begin by saying that Carly's comment about not justifying is blasphemous. I love justifying margins. Please keep them justified. Whenever I open up anything, any submission for books with hooks, anything, first thing I do is I justify it. Because my brain hates the left alignment.
- [37:00]
Carly Waters
Is the lawyer in you? Because it's like a lawyer thing to justify, right?
- [37:04]
Cece Lira
Well, I don't know. I never thought about it.
- [37:06]
Carly Waters
Maybe. I think it is. Whenever we have pitches from lawyers, they're always justified.
- [37:11]
Cece Lira
I think it's the good taste in me. Yes, that's what I think. No, seriously, it's better. It's neater. It's nice for my brain. So, yes, you should justify Carly's wrong. Okay. I love the Voice. The Voice is so catchy. So funny. I was reading this, and I was simultaneously picturing the book, but I was also picturing the Netflix rom com adaptation for it. And Bianca is so right. This is way more commercial than I usually like, but everyone likes the commercial novel every now and again. And I think that the reason why it's so, so catchy to me is the voice and the fact that this. This author. I'm so curious to know how long you've spent working on this. Maybe you mentioned this in the query letter. Now I forget. But, like, it's. It's clearly something that's very polished. You have put a lot of work into it. It shows. It has paid off. It's really, really excellent. I do think that there are things you can do to elevate it even further and Substack supporters will be able to see all my notes. I highlighted everything that I think could be tweaked and edited here and there. But, you know, overall, excellent. I was curious. I would have kept on reading if this were a full manuscript in my inbox. I would be reading it over the weekend because it's the kind of fun, escapist novel you want when it's, like, dreary outside. So a few notes that to. To highlight. Here you are namesplaining. You're like my fellow proposal planner and friend, Nixie. And then I don't think you need that. I just. Again, I know it's commercial fiction. People namesplain commercial fiction all the time. You do not need it. You don't. Your writing is strong enough. People are going to figure it out. In the banter between the friend and the protagonist, you are repeating a lot of information. And I think that you should keep the dialogue and you should keep the way they banter, but you should add new information because you're just repeating things. And it happens again when you. When you have her think to herself that she's breaking the golden rule of proposal planning, because you have that twice, and you don't need it twice. And nine times out of 10, when this happens, it's the author trying to Be like, I'm nervous that people aren't going to know what's happening. People know. People are smart. I promise. Your writing is really, really strong, so you don't need it. There's a whole bunch of great lines. I really love this. As an added layer you could consider adding here, I will say this. So as a premise, we have this protagonist convinced that the flash mob is a mistake. Her boss wants a flash mob. She feels that she knows her client's girlfriend well enough to know that a flash mob would be a mistake. So she is again, breaking the rule and kind of like following this person, observing them. And her observations confirm her. Her suspicions, which is to say that she goes, she tells herself, yes, this person would not want a flash mob because they're quiet, they're nerdy. What's interesting, though, is a line that's there. The line reads, this woman wants a flash mob and drunk baseball fans witnessing her marriage proposal. As much as I would focus on that last clause, as much as I would, she is like his girlfriend. Or she is like her perception of his girlfriend. So I think that a cool layer to consider adding here would be to have Ursula, her boss, accuse her of projecting, you know, accuse her of allowing her own preconceptions and tastes affect the work. And if you do that, not only is it a little bit more complex in terms of human dynamics, but you're developing character like you're developing her own character as you're doing that. And it kind of makes me, as a reader, doubt her assessment, because when we project, we often get things wrong. Sometimes we're projecting and we're still right. And that doubt is good, because even if she's ultimately right and Colin's girlfriend is exactly like her, the fact that as a reader, I'm going to go, huh, I wonder if she's wrong. That's interesting, because that makes me go, let's keep reading to find out. So it's not something you need. Truly, you don't need anything. These pages are so great. But I think that it might be an interesting level of psychological acuity to consider weaving into your story. Psychological acuity is what separates the good novels from the greats. So up to you. I will say this. I know you chose to query Carly, but whenever it's ready, I really want to read this. If you want to send it to me, please do, because I loved it.
- [41:40]
Bianca Marais
Carly, are you going to allow Cece to swipe this one?
- [41:45]
Carly Waters
Of course I will. I. You know, I always feel guilty pulling my seniority on Her. But no, it's. This one's all yours and I'm so excited to hear how it goes. And congratulations to Shannon on a rave review.
- [41:58]
Cece Lira
What Carly isn't telling you is that I texted her and I kind of threatened her like. Or else, you know, like. So she. She's playing it like I was nice.
- [42:05]
Bianca Marais
But no, listen, as the author on the show, what I love seeing at any given time is seeing agents fighting over authors because it hardly ever happens and it's wonderful to see an author having a skirmish happening for them because it's. They deserve it.
- [42:21]
Carly Waters
So multiple times this fall I had to. I was in beauty contests over projects. So I think there is a mythology that it doesn't happen that age agents fight a lot, but we actually do fight over projects all the time and so it is possible that you. You will get multiple agent fan girls and fanboys.
- [42:37]
Bianca Marais
So how many times did you get the tiara, Carly? In the. In the beauty pageants?
- [42:42]
Carly Waters
Good question. One. And then I'm waiting on another. So you know, one to be deep.
- [42:49]
Bianca Marais
Fingers crossed. So yeah, authors, this is amazing. Sometimes agents have to fight for us. Okay, Carly and Cece, thank you so much both for your wonderful insights. Next week we'll have an author on the show and then in two weeks time we're back to another Books with Hooks. If you do want to submit for the show, go to the shitaboutwriting.com and look for the Books with Hooks page and it'll give you all the information there. We'll see you again next week. Bye everyone.
- [43:16]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting.substack.com.
- [44:09]
Bianca Marais
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes Would you like to stand a chance of winning a registration for our upcoming Deep Dive Virtual Retreat so you can learn from incredible agents, editors and authors while also having the chance of winning life changing prizes? Head to the shitaboutwriting.com and go to the Deep Dive page. Scroll down past all the details of the amazing lineup to find an image that you can share on your socials along with the reasons why you would like to attend. Use the hashtag Deep diveorbust and tag the podcast. Each post gets you a ticket into the draw. The contest ends at midnight on the 23rd of January and the winner will be announced on the 24th. We hope it's going to be you. Are you looking for the perfect gift for the writer in your life? Are you the favorite writer in your life and you want to gift yourself something awesome? Then come take a look at the Ultimate Planner for writers for 2025. It not only allows you to plan for your regular day to day with hourly time slots, it also allows you to brainstorm, research, plot outline, do scene planning and vision boarding all in one. And it's available as a physical planner or as an e planner. Check out Bianca Marais and find the Planner for Writers tab for more information. Remember to order early to avoid the end of year rush.