Jessica Guerreri (5:32)

Yes, it is. Women's fiction book Club fiction and then literary fiction. You know, it is that sweet spot modeled after Celeste Ng, that type of genre where you, you know, you. You can't put it down. I just finished, like Broken country, and it's like that, to me is. And Frozen River. Those are the epitome of, like women's book club fiction, but also the element of literary because so for me, I love the poetic prose and things like that. So. Happy medium of all of that.

Bianca Marais (5:59)

Yeah, perfect balance of all of that. Definitely hitting the sweet spot. Okay, so please take us through when you submitted to Books with Hooks, how long ago that was. I'd love for you to read that query letter. And I want us to really get into the nitty gritty of the evolution of a piece after critique.

Jessica Guerreri (6:17)

Absolutely. Yeah. So I was on Books with Hooks, I believe, in 2023, and when I started with you gu. Let's see. It was. Actually, I'm going to. I'll go ahead and read it, but I want to tell you guys the evolution of how it came to be because honestly, this was the beginning of my journey with everything, and it was really everything that Carly offered was instrumental in sort of jumping it forward and what needed to ultimately happen. But I'll go ahead and read it for you. So. Dear Bianca, Carly and Cece, I'm going to read this part again because it's still true to an emerging writer like myself. Entering the literary world can feel like getting dropped into a foreign country without being fluent in the language. Your podcast has served as my translator and guidebook. For that and this opportunity, I'm enormously grateful. Between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea, 92,000 Words is a work of women's upmarket fiction. Told from three alternating female perspectives. The novel will appeal to fans of Barbara o' Neill's When We Believed in Mermaids and Leanne Moriarty's the Husband's Secret. Leo o' Connor's decision to keep an accidental pregnancy leaves her far more domesticated and intoxicated than she ever intended to be. A decade later, her art career is as uninspired as she is, leaving her adrift and vulnerable to her mother in law's meddling matriarch of the Oconnor family. Christine has just discovered that her son may not be the father of Leah's oldest daughter. She ruthlessly schemed to banish Leah from their male dominated clan for good. Christine will need to choose between her disdain for Leah or her love for her favorite grandchild. Ashamed of her dysfunctional upbringing, Amy entrusts her Sister in law with the truth about her childhood. Her. But when Leah's alcoholic behavior starts hitting too close to home, a pregnant Amy must either reopen old wounds or create a future without Leah's friendship. Unsure where to turn, Amy seeks refuge with Christine. So there's a line that I'm not going to say because it's a spoiler. Yes. So starting here, each mother is ensnared in a dilemma. As Leah, Christine and Amy begin to unravel each other's past, they must dance with the devil. Will their secret be their salvation or their undoing? Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea is about the consequences of familial deception and addiction. It's a peek behind the curtain into modern day mommy wine culture with surprising twists and subtle humor beneath the darker mundanity of domestic life. And then I go on to say my accreditations, but people really just want to hear the other part, I think. Right, Yeah.

Bianca Marais (8:45)

I mean, that is fascinating. So it started off as a multi POV novel and now we've got one POV character. But before we get into all of that, tell us what Carly's feedback was, how you felt about it and what you did from there.

Jessica Guerreri (9:01)

So Carly's feedback. And I'm going to speak super honestly and candidly because that is exactly how I am and I think it's going to be really helpful for other writers. So first of all, when I got this from you guys that I was going to be on it, I was like, oh, all done. Like, here's my big break and Carly's going to love it and she's going to pick me up and it's going to be that one. And literally this was, this was my head, this was my ego and my delusion, really. It was like, oh, it, this is it. And this was, this was only the beginning. Right? So this is the only the beginning. And so the feedback that she gave me was my query letter. There was too much going on. The multi POV is incredibly hard sell in a query letter because of everything that's happening and you're trying to cover three character perspectives. And so she, she talked to me about that and I had heard that feedback multiple, multiple times before, specifically that Leah's, her story was the strongest of all of them. And it was one of those things that you hear over and over and it isn't until you hear it for the thousandth time that you're like, okay, fine. And also as a writer and you know in your gut what, what the right answer is, right? Sometimes you just need to be beaten over the head with it. And I was grateful that Carly was the one that beat me over the head with it. And so since this was my debut, I bit off more than I could chew with multi pov. I came in really hot. I like to be an overachiever. And so I was like, oh, I like reading where there's multiple perspectives and they all are weave together. You know, Celeste Ng and Lian Moriarty are such champions at this. And I was like, oh, wait, but I've never done this before, so maybe come back down to earth. And so I took that advice to heart, and not only did it make my query letter stronger, but obviously it is ultimately what sold my book as a single POV from the strongest voice that was in the book. So that was a huge shift that I had to make.

Bianca Marais (11:10)

And before you continue, I just want to say it's not delusional as writers for us to be like, this is my big break, right? Because to be a writer, you've got to maintain a certain degree of hope. You've got to believe in your work. And at any given point at that moment, you generally believe that is the best your work is, because that's as far as you've come. And it's only in hindsight that you're able to go, oh, man, I was a bit delusional thinking that was as great as it was. But this is what keeps us going as writers, a certain level of this optimism, which I don't want any of us to lose.

Jessica Guerreri (11:43)

So, absolutely. Well, and my whole goal in coming back on here is to say, you know, what Carly has said before, like, the only thing that will stop you is if you quit. That's the only thing standing in your way. And so my model with literally my recovery life, my publishing, is that the amount of rejection is unbelievable in this industry. But there was no point at which I was gonna. I was gonna give up. There was no point. There's gonna be defeat and setback, and, you know, that's part of it. But overwhelmingly and just as the tone in my story, it ends with a sense of hope. And that's really important to me too. So I want to agree with you 100 on that, Bianca.

Bianca Marais (12:21)

Yeah. And also, here's the thing, because even though this became a single POV novel, nothing was wasted because you knew Christine and Amy so well from writing their perspectives, right?

Jessica Guerreri (12:34)

Oh, absolutely.

Bianca Marais (12:35)

Which added so much depth to Lear's perspective. And I just want to say that I actually love that we didn't get Amy and Christine's perspective. I liked that so many times I was in Leah's head, there was a sense of claustrophobia. And she speaks often about her envy that her husband doesn't understand this need to try and escape your own body, which I was like, holy hell, yes. And. And so you felt this claustrophobia with her. But I love that sometimes we were seeing Christine doing things and we were like, what the hell is Christine thinking? Like, what motivations here? What's going on? And that created even more tension. So for those of you listening who are grappling with should I have multi pov, single pov? Remember that if you keep your character, the perspective in one character, they can only guess at what everyone else is thinking, what their intentions are. And that does maintain that sense of. Of tension throughout.

Jessica Guerreri (13:30)

The other piece that I really want to point out that she drove home was to bring to the front and center the idea of It's a peek behind the curtain into modern day mommy wine culture. So really what it is is it's not a book where you're sitting around and, you know, women are drinking in circles and what that looks like. It's actually the repercussions of what we don't see. And it's a peek behind the curtain of the realities of that slippery slope where you use alcoholism as a coping strategy because being a modern woman is hard. And so Carly really said, bring that first and foremost. And so when I did my final query, that was front and center. And that's. That's one of those things that. That's the punch, like that gets a lot of attention. And actually what I ended up using with it was my opening changed completely given the fact that you guys were recommended, you know, everything out front. And I want to. I want to read so you hear the difference. It says between the Devil and the deep blue sea. 82,000 words is a work of book club fiction. So there I changed my genre. It was written in first person and spanned several months with flashbacks into the protagonist's past. The novel will appeal to fans of Liane Moriarty and has themes similar to Barbara o' Neill's When We Believed in Mermaids. It's a peek behind the curtain into the origins of modern day mommy wine culture. Think prequel to Quit Like a Woman. The radical choice to not drink in a culture obsessed with alcohol, but in fictionalized form. So I brought in, you know, an example. This was, you know, that's actually a memoir, but at the same time, it is. It's sort of like and how my agent pitched it was a frank rebuttal to Mommy wine culture reminiscent of Celeste Ng. And so that was how we ended up pitching it. I feel like the difference between that and what I had in my first is evident. You know, obviously I changed genres. I also did the single pov. I brought the heavy hitting to the forefront and then I was able to really hone in Leah's part of the story. One of the things that Carly said too was there was so much going on and you know, she said you need like a as usual, let's dive.

Carly Waters (15:48)

Right into planning my vacation and summer wardrobe. This time of year we get out the summer clothes and they feel a little bit tired. As you guys know, I travel for conferences and events so I can meet and greet with you all and I'm off to the Greater Pittsburgh Festival of Books in late May to see my client tear DeWitt and gearing up for France as soon as the kids are out of school. I'm preparing by upgrading my daily wardrobe with quints like lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets. The best part? All Quint's Items are price 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. I got the Mongolian Cashmere tea in heather gray. It is so soft and so chic. The quality and price blew me away. I don't know why I would pay mall prices when I have quints. I've literally worn it every day since it arrived. No joke. And I should probably wash it soon, but I don't want to be away from it. I dress it up for work with Taylo colored black pants and dress it down with jeans and layers of necklaces. I also grabbed a pair of blue kids swim trunks with sharks on them. Super cute for my son so he's ready to swim when we get to the south of France. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quince. Go to quince.com T S N O T y a w for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com T S N S N O T y a w to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com T S N O-T Y A W this spring, watching everything outside Bloom. I'm also watching my kids blossom in their French immersion program at school. It's amazing but also a big motivator for me, especially because we're headed to France next month. I want to be able to join in more. You know, if you want to connect more with your kids language journey or maybe prep for your own adventure this season. Rosetta Stone helps build those skills. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years, offering an immersive and effective approach that helps you absorb and retain new language naturally on desktop and mobile, wherever and whenever it fits your lifestyle. It is a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, Polish and so many more. There's fast language acquisition. You can immerse in so many ways. No English translations. It's an intuitive process. And don't forget the speech recognition True Accent feature. It gives you feedback on your pronunciation. It's very convenient, flexible learning anytime, anywhere on the go with the mobile app or on your desktop at your schedule. And there's amazing value Lifetime membership for all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Lifetime access. So don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today.

Jessica Guerreri (19:01)

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Carly Waters (19:01)

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Jessica Guerreri (19:07)

A family tree to get through this. And that's the problem with large family dynamic novels, which are my favorite type of book. I love messy, complicated family dynamics. It's like my, you know, if it's on there, I'm reading it. But that's the problem is you have to make these people well known and remember who they are. And you can't do that in a query letter. Like how do you do that? And so she, she really guided me towards that. That was super helpful. The, the only other thing that I wanted to share too, that was really important is a lot of it and doing this process of coming on and having it been like read aloud and got front and center feedback from somebody so incredible in the industry. It actually led me down a road of saying how do I get front and center in front of more agents? Because the query trenches are a lonely place. And so I actually started looking at different ways in which you could do live pitching. I bid on Charity events where I could get FaceTime with agents. And I did Manuscript Academy, which is actually how I landed my agent. And there's live critiques that you can do with FaceTime. And so I it. That really helped me to kind of get out from behind the page and get that, like, human connection, which just makes this whole process feel more real and less, I guess, less intimidating. And that's, I think, is really helpful advice.

Bianca Marais (20:38)

We're going to come back to how you landed your agent, because I know everyone's going to be interested in that. If you could just take us through when Carly saw the opening pages, what was in them, and how the book looks now in terms of that revision.

Jessica Guerreri (20:49)

Sure. Okay. So a summary of my opening pages and how I started. Originally, I did start from Leah's perspective, because, again, that was the strongest pov, and I knew that from the jump. I start off in sort of what Carly describes as, like, the domestic life and how that is a very hard place to step into and be memorable because it's done so often. And so I had never really thought of that or I looked at that idea. But I immediately jump into the biggest, like, one of the biggest flashbacks, which is how she meets her husband. And in hindsight, that's very disorienting for the reader because we don't know Leah enough yet to go into a flashback part of my story. And what I chose was to do a lot of flashbacks because people in recovery and people that are struggling with active addiction, they oftentimes can't live in the present. And so they live in the past. And they sort of take a lot of time either being back in and remembering, like, things that happened. And they can't stay in the here and now when they're in active addiction. So it was really important. Important for me to sort of blend that. And so there are a lot of flashbacks, and it is really flashback heavy. But that is because I want to show the authentic experience of what it looks like inside Active Addiction. Because you're not in the here and now. You're. You're living somewhere in the past and you're not in the. In the now. And so that. That wasn't working to start off that way. She complimented my writing, which, you know, was really, like, I could walk away and feel really good about that because, you know, it's a huge compliment to say that you have good writing quality from Carly. But I, like, came away feeling overwhelmed by the amount of work that I needed to do and knowing that I had now a path to go on. But I needed to take a few days to like, sit in it, wallow in it, do the things that writers do to be like, okay, I'm going to really have to make some changes here. But I have a direction. And that felt really good. So what I ultimately ended up doing and what I shifted is what I will give advice. And also this just happened because I wrote my second book because I got a two book deal with HarperCollins. When I landed my publishing deal, my opening. And I know you guys talk about this on the pod all the time. I will come back to that. Like, I. That will be one of the things that I will write and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite a million different ways. And like, as I submitted it to my editor for the beginnings of edits, I was like, this isn't the opening. I know it's not and I'm okay with that. But when I was submitting to you guys and I submitted opening pages, I must have done, you know, a hundred different drafts because I just didn't know where in the story I wanted to begin. And like, I want to normalize that in the creative process that it is really, really tough because sometimes it's all they see. Right. And so what I ended up doing is I did stick with the domestic introduction of like, domesticity and like being in it in motherhood. But I decided to introduce sort of the, the relationship that is already fraught between Leah and her mother in law. And I wanted to jump in from the gate and you guys talk about how important it is to like hook from the beginning. You don't have any time to waste. I actually didn't believe that for the longest time. I was like, no, because if the writing is so good, they'll just keep reading and they'll get there. And I, you know, sometimes you have to be hit over the head. And this was a hit over the head moment where it was like, nope, you only get this time, so make it really good. And so that's what I ended up doing. And that's what we ended up printing.

Bianca Marais (24:47)

Amazing. I'm going to get to the intentionality that you brought to the flashbacks now. First, a word from our sponsors. Okay. Yeah. I love what you said about you wanting to work in the flashbacks. It was very intentional to the recovery process to show the mind of somebody who's battling with addiction. So here is the thing. When you are a writer who is in control of your craft, you say, I'm going to do the following for the following reasons. You have very good reasons for doing them. You don't just fall back into it, you know, without even realizing it. But it's still so important to say, I'm going to do it. But not from the opening chapter. Right. Because we need to ground the person, the reader in scene. They need to know who Leah is. They need to know her mindset, what she's struggling with before we go back to the past. And so I think that was a really good calibration on your part, because we did end up seeing that. We saw how she met him. We saw all of that. We saw it later. It just wasn't in that expensive real estate of those opening pages. So, again, major intentionality. And it's not like you're just deleting stuff. And this is why we say writing a book, you've got to circle the building, and it's like a puzzle. You're going to move pieces around.

Jessica Guerreri (25:59)

Absolutely. And everything that I had used before, that was the meat of the characters that didn't end up being featured. That was just, like me inside their head. And then I got to see it from the other angle and then go back inside Leah and then observe them in this way and reveal only what she is able to see in her limited scope. You know, she's an unreliable narrator. And so that. That helped me. It could only help me, like, doing more work. Yes, it's more work, and it was written multiple, multiple times. But at the end, I think it just made the characters that much more real and that much stronger.

Bianca Marais (26:36)

Yeah, I know that you work quite a bit with beta readers. You have an excellent support group in terms of beta readers and writing group people, which is incredible. What was their process along the way, as the work was evolving? Were they being like, yes, now you've nailed it. Some writing group people are like, why the hell did you change that? I liked it the first time, and that can sometimes be confusing. So how did that evolution look for you?

Jessica Guerreri (27:00)

Sure. So I want to give credit where credit is due, because you guys were the ones that were the founding people that actually brought us all together. And I have an incredibly solid group of beta readers that are loyal followers and listeners of you guys. And the reason we all got together is because we got to meet some of you at the Women's in Fiction Conference in Chicago a while back. And so we got to all meet in person, and then, you know, they just did another writing retreat together. And I was like, I want to go, but I have to go on a national book tour instead but we really utilize each other and are very honest in our feedback. There's going to be a point at which you're not ready to hear what needs to be heard. And the great thing about entering into a group is you're all in this contract that says, like, I will be very kind to you and we will treat each other kindly, but I'm not going to waste your time. You're not going to waste my time. I'm not going to waste your time. If I don't like something, if something is not working, like, let's workshop it and just be brutally honest with each other. And I think that has made all the difference. Yes. There's always going to be things where people are like, oh, actually, I did like it more this way, you know, and that's welcome to the subjective nature of this entire industry. But it's the same thing that happened where it was the multi POV that I kept hearing. Well, Leah's voice is the strongest. Leah's voice is the strongest. Listen to the things that are happening and being said over and over and over again. And that's. That can only happen if you're willing to, like, open your ears to. To other people and be willing to take that critique and that feedback. And that's what I have in my. In my women's group, which is amazing.

Bianca Marais (28:47)

Yeah. And, you know, for our listeners, when you hear that kind of thing, you have got one or two options. And I've had this before in my own work. You either go, okay, this person is going to be the main character and it's only going to be one pov, or, you know, you've got to work really hard to strengthen those other POVs, to bring them up to the same level, because you never want a read again. Oh, it's Leah. I want to be with Leah and then be like, oh, it's Christina. I've got to. I've just got to get through these pages. Right. So when you hear that you are always the person who gets to decide what you're going to do with that feedback. Are you going to take out the peripheral POVs, or you're going to work that much stronger to elevate them to the one of the strongest pov, it's always up to you. But it's so important to listen to those beta readers. Now back to how you landed your agent and then the rest of your journey to publication. Jessica.

Jessica Guerreri (29:36)

Yeah, absolutely. So Lori Galvin was my original agent who actually heard me on your podcast, and she reached out to me on Twitter and we connected that way and actually we went through and did a year's worth of editing and developmental editing and she was incredible. And then we sort of hit that wall that was just like, I don't know where to go from here. And I feel like we've hit the end. And so we left amicably. I still absolutely adore her and she has been such a champion for me, but I was ready to move on and so I went back out into the trenches, made sure it was the single pov, had a stronger, stronger with all of the beta, you know, feedback and everything that I had taken on. And then I did Manuscript Academy and I ended up meeting my current agent, Ismita Hassan, and she is with Great Dog Literary and we have a really strong connection. I can, you know, I need to be in communication with her on a regular basis. She's very communicative. She has championed my career and I trust her completely. She also got me the two book deal with Harper Muse, which is incredible because I'm a debut author and that doesn't typically happen. But what happened in that particular meeting with Harper Muse was my agent had prepared me and said, you know, I had sort of lost hope for between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea in between those, you know, shuffling agents and sort of like, okay. And so I didn't want to lose steam. And so I wrote my second book in that time that I was still querying and still trying to figure out. And we were, you know, out on submission and I just kind of said, I'm not going to waste this time, of course. So I continued to work on my craft. And then when I we set up that meeting with Harper Museum, she's like, make sure you pitch your second book in there. Because if there's an opportunity and they say, what else are you working on? Go ahead and pitch it. So we ended up talking about my second book, just as long as we talked about my first. And she got on the phone with me within half an hour and she's like, by the way, it's going to be a two book deal. So time is never wasted when you think that this long, drawn out, you know, it's like, oh, I was out on submission for three months or six months or whatever it is it I was writing. You should be writing in that time. It should be. You have to put that, that time in. And so that's exactly what I did.

Bianca Marais (31:57)

Yeah, no, absolutely. The time's gonna pass regardless. So I've loved this discussion, Jessica. We unfortunately, at the end of our time, there was so much more I wanted to chat about. But for our listeners, get between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, we've got an incredible study of a vulnerable protagonist who at times is not the most likable. There's times you've got to really work hard to get on board with her, which I really liked. She was very layered, very nuanced. The interiority, the emotionality was excellent. The writing at the line level was excellent. And the kind of ending I like, which isn't an all, it's all been super wrapped up very neatly. You know, that kind of ending that I feel is a realistic ending, but so much to love throughout the book. So get it. We're linking to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. You get it there you support the podcast and an independent bookstore. Jessica, we wish you much luck with this and we're looking forward to reading your follow up.

Jessica Guerreri (32:56)

Thank you so much for having me. And good luck with your book too, Bianca. I'm so thrilled for you. Thank you for having me.

Bianca Marais (33:02)

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.

Cece Lira (33:15)

Hello listeners, this is cece. I am so excited to announce my next course, Writing Emotion and Relationships. An all new mashup of two of my most popular classes revamped with fresh content starting on June 19th. This is going to be a four day event, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover active versus passive emotions, how to effectively show versus tell most common mistakes in writing emotions and relationships, and obviously how to get it right, types of relationships and how to leverage each one in a story, emotional and relational makeups and arcs for protagonists and other characters, how to create chemistry between characters, different genre expectations, and so much more. Oh, and did I mention there's an interactive component? That's right. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending an excerpt of their work for a chance to have it critiqued live during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend. There are limited spots though, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more sessions live. The recording will be sent to everyone who's registered 24 hours after each class. Once again, this is a four day class, Writing Emotion and Relationships beginning on June 19th. For more details, check out the link on my Instagram bio or head over to the podcast's website. I hope to see you there.