← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
How to Find The Hook in Your Book
00:46:13
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
Loading summary
Transcript79 lines
- [00:01]
A
What's up everyone? This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter, studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [01:33]
B
Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't as yet found your writing Soulmates the next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.
- [02:28]
C
Foreign.
- [02:33]
B
Hi there and welcome to our show the Ship no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.
- [02:48]
D
Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hooks. Today we have a special guest joining us. So many of you will remember my launch party that happened back in it was the 9th of June, feels like an eternity ago and we had two contests that night. The one was for the best query package and the one was for the best flash fiction submission and Leslie won the best flash fiction submission that night. Congratulations Leslie. Woohoo. And yeah, for our listeners, we did publish that in our newsletter so if you missed that, go back and have a look for it. It was an excellent, excellent submission. But besides the awesome statuette, the Oscar statuette that Leslie won on the night. Ah yes, exactly. I would put that on my mantle too. I was very tempted to keep that and not hand that across to anybody and just give myself a prize. Leslie also won an appearance on Books with Hooks. So now we are going to hear something different from Leslie's flash fiction, which is her query for a novel. So Leslie, welcome to the show and will you please read us a query letter.
- [03:57]
C
Thank you. Dear Carly, cece, Bianca, my submission the Fence is a YA dystopian novel with just enough wit to balance the darkness. Complete at 68,000 words and set in the near future, the themes of found family and survival will appeal to fans of Sherry Demoline's the Mayor of Thieves and Sanctuary by Abby Sharon Paolo Mendoza. In a city of youngsters living in government run orphanages, Cam is on her own. Kicked out for a retaliatory act of violence, she holes up in an abandoned apartment, scavenges food and avoids the world and everyone in it until a break in depletes her cash, thereby forcing her to get a government assigned factory job. Between the microchips, the street corner scanners and the Fence, Cam sees no end to her misery. But that changes one night after curfew when she meets Jax in the boarded up library. After a close call with the Grays, Jax confesses to Cam that he is searching for a secret depository on behalf of his his friend Yuan and the underground. This clandestine group of orphans is convinced the government is hiding information that could eventually lead to revolution and the end of the tyranny. After successfully finding the depository and discovering the President was directly responsible for the destruction of much of the world's population, Jax and Cam are informed their names have appeared on the Gray's watch list, forcing them to flee the city where they discover the government's reach extends far beyond fence. They are found by Maggie, a farmer, who takes them in, keeping them safe until the guilt of abandoning Ewan draws them back towards the city and the burgeoning revolution. I live and write in small town Ottawa Valley. Thank you for your time and consideration.
- [05:47]
D
Thank you so much. Lesley, do you know how many words the query letter was?
- [05:52]
C
No, I just realized I forgot to check that.
- [05:55]
D
It's not a problem. Colleen, Cece, are you able to have a look there?
- [05:58]
E
It's coming in at 291.
- [06:03]
D
Okay, so it's on the short side, so there is opportunity there for more of a bio paragraph. But let's hear what Kali and Cece have to say. Kali, we'll start off with you.
- [06:13]
F
All right. Welcome, Leslie. So glad to have you. I always say I love having authors on the show because we get to kind of get into the meat of everything, so I really appreciate it. So thanks for being here. Okay, so I decided that I want to focus on a couple things for our time together. One of them is your hook, because, again, this is books with hooks, so we need to figure out what it is, how to communicate it, all of that sort of good stuff. And. And yeah, and I also want to talk about the kind of tyrannical government structure. I'm going to start with the tyrannical government structure. So there are a number of books out there where there is some sort of, like, you know, near future, and the government's doing this, and, you know, we have to rebel, and then there's the uprising and the revolution. So it's not a unique structure. The reason that it is incredibly interesting is the way that it's going to tell us something about and the themes that you're eventually trying to teach through the science fiction element of it. Right. You pitch this as a YA dystopian. So I guess I kind of spent a lot of the time reading it trying to figure out what I felt was especially unique about this. One of the things I think that stood out was the kind of orphanage element, the emphasis on, like, children, you know, and their role in the process. So I think that's something that's definitely going to stand out for you, but I definitely want to get into it, obviously, after Cece shares her notes as well, about what we can kind of pinpoint as the thing that is going to make this particular project stand out, because, you know, you start with an idea, you grow that idea, you write a book about it, you get really proud of it, and you know, you're sharing with other people, which is great. And then we get to this point where, okay, now it is a product that we then have to sell and translate into hooking an agent or finding a publisher and all of that sort of stuff. So that's where we find ourselves, the intersection of where the book is going to meet the marketplace. And so that's why I'm going to be putting emphasis on it. And it's not to say it's, you know, not a great idea. It's figuring out, like, what is unique about this story and how we're going to make this story stand out and how we're going to sell this particular story. So kind of coming back to the hook, so you spend some very important real estate saying, why a dystopian novel with just enough wit to balance the darkness? I don't know what that means. So that's the place where I'm like, okay, probably need to cut that. And then you get into themes, right? Themes of found family and survival. And then you get into the comps. So I think the comps are probably pretty. Pretty strong here. One of the comps that I think you could potentially use, my client, Jail Richardson, she wrote Gutter Child, which is another one where it's like Children against the System. And it's a Canadian author as well. So if you haven't read that one, obviously everybody who's listening, check it out, because it's a great book, but you have the Marrow Thieves in there, which is another great Canadian YA comp as well. So let's get back to the hook. So I've done this on the show before, where I try to help people figure out what their hook is. And we're going to do that today, obviously, to help Leslie and help everybody that is listening as well. So I'm going to go through a couple different formulas to help us figure out what our hook is. So we're going to start with what I think is usually the strongest kind of formula, which is the character goal obstacle hook. Because one of the other things that's a challenge with a pitch where we're building another world is that we have to, like, explain what the world is, and why does this world matter, and why is the reader going to care about the world that you're building and all of that sort of stuff. So I find that this one, the character goal obstacle formula, does a good job of helping us get at it. So I'll give you some examples here of what I think is a way that can really start you off on a really strong note with a query letter itself and help frame the drama that is to come. So here's one example. A loner kicked out of a government orphanage must survive on her own despite a close call with the authorities that forces her into the very system she despises. So, you know, we're going to get into some other kind of more like twist oriented formulas and some like more emotionally driven formulas. That's a very straightforward formula where what is the character, what is the goal, what is the obstacle? She's a loner. She's kicked out of the government orphanage. She must survive on her own despite the close call with authorities that forces her into the system, she despises. Another one. A young revolutionary must find a secret depository despite government surveillance and the ever present danger of the Grays. That one we got to think about whether we need to explain what the Grays is. And that is probably a note that cece wanted to get into in terms of her notes of like, who's the baddie? What are they doing? I can imagine Cece's probably wanting to talk about that one. Okay, so then another formula would be the character situation complication formula. So when a break in depletes Cam scavenged food supply, she must accept a government job, putting her in direct conflict with the system she's trying to avoid. So that again creates the stakes and the tension for what's the drama between where she is and what's getting in her way. That's a really important formula. When a chance meeting in a boarded up library reveals a revolutionary plot, Kim must choose between her solitary life and helping to uncover a secret that could destroy everything. That one's a bit vague, but you know what? I'm getting at that one. Okay, let's move on to another formula which is the character desire conflict formula. This is what I call the in a world formula. So, you know, when we're doing movie trailers, it's like in a world. So in a world where government tyranny and strict surveillance reigns, Cam wants to live a solitary existence free from the system. But she finds herself entangled in a revolution. I think that in a world, hooks work really well in an imagined world because you have to explain what the world is. So it's like in a world where in a world where all orphans are controlled by the government, Jacks wants to find the truth behind their oppression. A pursuit that puts him and everyone he cares about in danger. That's obviously focusing a bit more on Jacks and Okay, not one last one. Well, we can go do two more. Maybe one last one is kind of the twist, because I think what's, again, what's important here is what's making this project stand out. And I think what we have to figure out is what is the twist in your story? Because again, why would somebody pick your project up instead of the marrow thieves or gutter child or something like that? Right? Because, like, that's your. Your contemporaries. So let's talk about what your twist might be. So an abandoned child who wants nothing more than to be left alone is forced into the very system she's trying to avoid, only to discover she's a key player in a revolution that will change the world. Again, a little bit vague on the key player and the change the world pit. And you can obviously figure out if you want to elaborate on that. But the only to discover part, right, that's the twist. Like, got to figure out again how we're going to make this project stand out. And last one, I want to do a more, like, high stakes version of this, just so you can see the difference between what we started with, which was a bit more straightforward, and a much more dramatic dun, dun, dun type of hook, which is kicked out and alone, a girl's desperate attempt to survive turns into a high stakes race to explore, expose a government conspiracy that could destroy everything she's ever known. So that's the kind of hook where it's like, okay, everything she's ever known, we're flipping it. That's. That's the dramatic stakes involved. So just wanted to run you through some of those. Obviously I can share them with you if it's interesting, but just some different ways to think about how we can highlight what is unique about your story and how we can make that stand out. And that is it for my notes today.
- [13:13]
D
Thank you, Carly. Okay, we'll move across to cece, and then after that, we'll open it up to Leslie. Cece, what were your thoughts?
- [13:19]
E
My first thought when I read this was, I'm so grateful that you're going to be on the show with us because I have questions and then you can answer our questions. But first, I think we all need a round of applause for those great hooks because that was really good. Now, I want to know which one was your favorite, but we won't get into that just yet. Okay, So I want to focus on the plot paragraphs. There is a lot of information that doesn't add tension, doesn't add conflict, doesn't add stakes, and the purpose of a query letter more than anything else is to create tension, conflict, and stakes. For example, the fact that she's holing up in an abandoned apartment, scavenging for food, avoiding everyone. Like, these are all words that you are spending to describe a situation that, yeah, makes me feel a lot of empathy for her, but doesn't make me feel curious at all, because these are just facts, you know, facts about her life. Same with the line that reads, you know, there's microchips, there's street corner scanners. She's miserable, essentially. Again, empathy. Lots and lots of empathy. But where's the curiosity? Like, how are you going to hook us with something that happened, something that exerts power and pressure on her and, you know, puts her in a position where she needs to take action? There's also detail that I think isn't even adding to character development. So, for example, the fact that she meets Jackson in a library, like, maybe you'll tell me. That's super important, which is why I love that you're here. But I'm like, you're just wasting words. And I know your query letter is short, but I think after hearing our notes, it will no longer be short because we're asking you to add a whole bunch of things. So, specifically, what am I asking you to add? I'll be very blunt and very direct. The challenge here is that your plot paragraph is not making me curious. It's giving me information. And as a human being who, you know, like, we do. This is an educational podcast. And as a human being who has an educational podcast, I'm like, lots of empathy for that, and I support the fact that you're working on this draft, and. And I believe in you. And I have all these, like, nice emotions. But as an agent, my job is to sift through thousands of query letters and really only focus on the ones that make me curious. And so, as harsh as that sounds, and I know it sounds harsh, I hope you're hearing this with my intention, which is, hey, this isn't working. This isn't making people curious. So what can I do to make people curious? I think it has to be about focusing on power and pressure, power imbalance and pressure exerted on her. Her initial motivation, for example, she's miserable, but then she meets Jax.
- [15:48]
D
Like, that's.
- [15:49]
E
That's all very low stakes. So then I created a little list of the major plot points, and you can tell me if I'm misunderstanding, if I'm missing something. So one Cam is forced to get a government assigned Job. I think that's the inciting incident. Y' all tell us. Two, Cam meets Jax. Three, Cam and Jax find the depository and discover their names are on a watch list. Four, Cam and Jax flee the city. Five. Guilty. Cam and Jax go back, if that's right, and maybe it's not because we've had authors come here and be like, actually, there's this whole other thing. And then my mind is blown, and it's amazing. But if that's what's happening, I worry that you're framing it in. In a passive way, because there's no power or pressure, no antagonistic force forcing her to do anything. She's miserable. And, like, no offense to poor Cam, but, okay, she's miserable isn't the most compelling reason for anything to happen. You know? And she doesn't even make anything happen. She meets Jacks, and then she finds a depository because she learns information from him. Also very passive. And then she finds this depository. Cool. They don't even come after her. She finds out her name is on a list. Like, where's the power? Where's the pressure? You know, like, it's all very safe. They flee the city. They're totally fine. Are they forced to come back to save someone's life, someone they love? Are they forced to come back because one of them was kidnapped and they have to save the other? No. No. They're coming back because they're guilty. Kind of bookending the situation where it all started because she was miserable. That, to me, is not compelling motivation. And I think you're selling your story short because I've read your pages, so I know there's more to it. And I suspect that you're trying to keep her safe because it's ya. And we want to make sure that we are protecting readers. That's a very honorable thing. But at the same time, there is no one more ruthless than a teenager. Like, there is no one more ruthless in this world than a teenager. Teenagers can handle it, I promise you. So I think that it would be in your best interest to. I mean, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the plot. Maybe you can tell me whether these. These plot points are even right. Maybe they're not. But I think that with every domino that tips over with every plot point, we need to be really clear on the power imbalance, the power that's being exerted against her and the power that she has over someone else, if that ever applies. And the pressure and it needs to escalate. Those are my Two cents. I'm excited to hear from you.
- [18:22]
D
Okay, thank you so much, Cece. Okay, Leslie, we handing across to you now. This is your opportunity to give us more information, terms of answering those questions or asking questions of your own.
- [18:33]
C
Okay, both of you, thank you. That was great information. A lot to think about. Yeah, I think there's a lot more going on in the plot, but I guess one of my questions is that what happens is there's a virus which turns a lot of people off. I had an agent say, nope, no, nobody should be writing about viruses, right? So. Well, if you've read the first five pages, so she's with her mother at the end, you kind of get this sense that something's happening with them. Something does. But I think part of my issue with the whole thing is. And I've now torn the whole manuscript apart because I just think that it. It needs something different. But my issue is that. So Cam is in first person, and it's alternating chapters between her and the rest of them. And the Underground. She doesn't actually get directly involved with the Underground until later in the plot. And now I'm wondering whether I need to kind of rework the whole thing that she gets involved much quicker because Jax is the one with the information that he's the one looking for the depository. She happens to help him find it because unknowing to her, she's actually found the key to the depository. So it's, you know, it's all laid out on my floor right now, and it's just because it's alternating chapters, essentially, and it's like two completely different timelines, and I'm not exactly sure whether it's the right thing.
- [20:22]
D
Can I just interrupt there and ask Colleen Cece a question about the virus aspect of it? Because. Hugely popular, okay, Season one, season two was crap. Was the Last of Us. And hugely popular was the series Sweet Tooth, that went on for a lot of episodes, and that was, again, about a virus or some kind of mutation, et cetera. So we're seeing people really watching things with viruses. So is it true that nobody wants to. Wants a virus story before we go on with anything else?
- [20:51]
E
So I don't think it's true that nobody wants a virus story. I understand if someone is like, I'm not ready for that, especially. I mean, I'm assuming this didn't happen recently. I'm assuming this happened a few years ago where this agent said this to you. You can nod if that's true or no. No. Recently.
- [21:05]
C
No, it Was.
- [21:07]
E
Okay. Okay. Well, I think you're fine with the virus. And I also think that, more importantly, Leslie, if there's a virus in your story, not putting that in the query letter isn't going to fix the problem. If it is a problem. If anyone has a problem with virus, not putting it in the query letter is not going to fix the issue. So there's really only one option here. If your story has a virus, the virus needs to go in the query letter. And you don't even have to call it a virus if that is your issue. But I just wouldn't care at all. I want an unforgettable character going on a compelling journey. And to Bianca's point, there's a lot of media out there, including books, honestly, like in the Middle of the Pandemic. Hamnet was one of the biggest books out there, and that was about a pandemic. Fair historical fiction, but still, Station 11.
- [21:53]
D
Station 11 came back, and then there was Emma Donoghue's. I think it was Fates and Furies, I think it was.
- [21:59]
E
So, yeah, I just think that you're fine.
- [22:04]
F
Yeah, I. I think yes said no. You have a hurdle, which is a very hurt. Like, if an agent tells you something, it's not that they're representative of all agents, it's that it is a subset of people that are going to feel strongly about it. And so how big that subset is, it's hard to know. Every book has hurdles against it. Right. For example, like, you know, CC doesn't want to read about negative things happening to animals. You know, everybody has their own biases about, like, things that we do or don't want to read. One of mine is books where a television show or reality show is a big thing of the popular plot. We all just have these things where it's like, I can't wrap my head around that, therefore I'm not the right person to sell that because I can't be the right advocate for it. I mean, obviously the virus, one we don't have to kind of get into, maybe why that's a struggle for people. But I agree it has to go in the query letter. Like when you say until the break in depletes her cash. Was that the virus depleting her cash?
- [22:56]
C
No, no, it's. It's actually, it's before she meets the Underground and Jax and they're out searching for food for themselves and happen up on. They've been using her apartment building and.
- [23:11]
F
Yeah, so I guess my greater question here, my global question, would be like, what is it that you are trying to say about the world here? Because we got a virus. We have like, you know, the tyranny, the government control. You're mixing up a couple different kind of like sub. Sub genres, if you want to call it that. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what is this, like, unifying thing. What was the nugget of? I came up with this idea because I wanted to write this book about Blank.
- [23:40]
C
Okay. So the tail end of the virus is the first three chapters or whatever the world is. It's a city. Very few adults are still alive. What they discover in the depository is that the government manufactured this virus and released it in the world, and they weren't aware of that. They figure out that what has gone on is the reason that it's only kids left, is that they were actually vaccinated against it before the government released it. And the point of what the government is thinking in that case of a dictator that they have. He wants to be able to manipulate the population and have them act the way he wants them to. And by getting rid of the adults, he figures that he can manipulate the children and bring them up for his purposes.
- [24:36]
F
Okay. Okay, good. I like that. Let's run with that. Right, So I like this whole there are not many adults around business because what you end, what you say is like a city of youngsters. Like, to me, that's just. I thought you meant your book is going to have an emphasis on the young people in this city, not there are literally like 2% adult, 98% children. Or, you know what I'm trying to say. That's interesting. You have to highlight that. That. That piece is very interesting. The other thing is you completely rewrote this query to avoid talking about the virus. Therefore, you didn't get into any of the power struggles of what Cici was getting at with her questions. Right. So I think you have to scratch this whole thing. I think you have to scrap this whole query letter and essentially start again, because I think that you. Yeah, we're missing some key facts here. Cece, did you want to jump in.
- [25:21]
E
There now that you've explained that the virus is government manipulated, that vaccines were a part of. I understand the agent's concern a lot more because. And I'm projecting here, but, you know, there's so much like anti vaccine statements out there, sentiment out there. I mean, I understand this agent being like, this is going to be hard. And to Carly's point, every book has hurdles. Every book is hard. If this is your book. Let's own it. You know, let's not pretend that it's something it's not, because what's the point? That's just going to shoot yourself in the foot. So I understand the concern a lot more. I think the world where kids are left, like, left and adults are gone, like, that is so interesting. So much potential there. I do think, however, that whether it's in the story or the query letter, I don't know because I've only read five pages. But I do think that you need to make sure that your plot is about Cam. Like, right now, it's Jacks story way more than it's Cam's, based on what you're telling me. But the query letter makes it about Cam. So, yeah, like, we need agency. We need. We need power. We need pressure. We need her to do things beyond the fact that she's sad, beyond the fact that she's guilty and you can't keep her safe. It can't be like, oh, she finds out that her name is on a watch list. Like, these are not plot points that will propel a story of this nature forward. Even though the premise is amazing and what you're trying to say is really.
- [26:48]
F
Interesting, I think there's a lot here because this is a book for teens at a time when a lot of people have a lot of questions about their government and tyranny and dictatorship. And you're targeting these teens with this book where they get to kind of essentially explore some themes around the government and trust and like cece said, you know, this whole anti vax movement. Question mark, question mark, question mark. So there's.
- [27:14]
G
There's just.
- [27:15]
F
There's a lot of underlying things here to get right, you know, and I think that's probably what you're struggling with. It's like, I. I want to, you know, get the themes right. I want to get all of this right. I also want to get this published. And again, you got some hurdles stacked against you here, which is going to be really hard without nailing this really well.
- [27:35]
C
Yeah, I. I think, like, I'm in the middle of a major rewrite right now just because I didn't like the way it was kind of coming together. I thought it was finished. It's not finished. It's nowhere near finished.
- [27:50]
D
I mean, it's a very ambitious story, and that is extremely admirable. You've got a lot that you want to put in there. It's hugely ambitious, which means it's going to be that much harder to write and so, so long as you're just aware of it and so long as you're aware of the challenges and you're able to rise to that, Leslie, then I think, you know, you're good.
- [28:10]
C
Yeah. So do you think that I need to get her involved with, like. Yeah, I'm. I'm kind of stuck. I'm going to have to think about exactly how to go about doing this, But I suspect that she needs to be. She's not necessarily in all the chapters, right. Because it switches from. And then they come together when she does get involved with the Underground, and then it splits apart when they leave the city, and then they come back together again.
- [28:38]
E
That's not a problem at all, though. Like, she doesn't have to be in every chapter. What needs to happen is that interesting things need to be happening to her and caused by her until she meets Jacks as well. Because right now in your query letter, you're describing a monotonous life. You're describing scavenging. And no one's going to keep reading if that's all that's happening on those pages. So you need a lot of interesting plot in which she is a protagonist with power and pressure until they meet. And they can meet earlier. But if they meet earlier and she still doesn't have protagonism, you're still not going to fix the issue. So it's less about when it happens and more about what is her story. I'm, like, 99% convinced I'm right about this. I think you're keeping her safe. I think you like her better than you like Jacks. I've seen this happen to multiple authors. They get attached to a character, and then they protect them, and they make the bad stuff not quite happen. Her name is on the list, but don't worry, nobody actually came after her. Like, you need to stop protecting her, essentially. Stop protecting your characters. Torture them.
- [29:41]
F
My take on this would be think about the reader's experience. Because, like, it doesn't essentially matter when these two worlds intersect necessarily. Obviously, it can't be, you know, super late in the book, but you have to think about what is the reader going to learn in one world that's going to influence what they know about the other world going between Jacks and Cam. I mean, so if something we learn in Jacks section is keeping us one step ahead of Cam, that's interesting. That will keep the reader turning the page, even if things aren't happening to Cam. So I would just, like, arc out the whole reader experience. I'M very like, reader centric editor. That's the way I think about everything is like, what is the experience that the reader is going to have? And to me, that will probably help with this as well.
- [30:22]
D
And Lesley, just some other advice from someone who's written multi POV novels. Remember that in each point of view, you need to have. Have something that that character desperately wants. There needs to be stakes attached to them getting what they want. There needs to be an inciting incident for each character. Each character's pov. So each one has got to be as compelling as the other one. And each character needs to have protagonism and agency. And you need to see those dominoes tipping over so that as one thing happened, it leads to the other one and whether they make a bad decision and they have to deal with the repercussions. But then that ups the stakes in terms of what they have to do. So, you know, it's just important for you to look at her story separately and make sure that it's ticking all of those boxes as well as his story separately as well.
- [31:09]
C
Yeah, because I think at this point, there are things that happen to her, but I'm now beginning to think that those things are happening just because something interesting has to happen in the story and it's not directly connected to what.
- [31:25]
D
But also, listen to what you said. You said things are happening to her, which makes her passive. She's reacting to things. Right. The minute you say things are happening to your character, it means they are passive. They have no control over it, and they're just reacting to it. So you've got to reposition it. What is she doing to make the dominoes tip over? What decisions is she making? That's what gives your character agency.
- [31:49]
E
It's obviously both. Right? Things happen to her, she reacts to these things, and she makes things happen too. Like, it's a pinball effect. You need both. It can't just be her doing things well.
- [31:59]
C
And that's what Carly just started to say was maybe she isn't the main character. It could be Yuan, who you're introduced to in chapter two.
- [32:11]
E
Yeah, I mean, you. You will know that because you're her creator. Guess who created all these people. Guess who's the God of this world. That's you.
- [32:17]
C
So, yeah, and I have thought about that too, and I'm going, oh, boy.
- [32:22]
D
Okay, yeah, it might be a big change, but you've got to make the changes that best serve the story right? So. Okay, well, we're running out of time now. In terms of the queries. So I think we're going to move on now, Lesley to the pages. Can you please just give us a summary of what's in them and then.
- [32:40]
G
We can discuss those as fall ramps up and we go into back to school mode Thinking Cozy interior decor is a top priority for all of us. From layering fabrics and textiles to extra pillows and fresh sheets and plush bath towels. I can't stop thinking about being fully.
- [32:55]
F
Enveloped by my home.
- [32:56]
G
Whether it's lattes by the fireplace or a big bath towel after a piping hot bath, or making sure the kids are tucked in their beds with flannel sheets, Wayfair is the place you'll go. Your trusted destination for all things home. Wayfair's got you covered. As you guys know, we've recently redone our bathrooms and we got the perfect vanity from Wayfair with a wood fluted textured front. It fits in with the modern look.
- [33:17]
F
I was going for and couldn't find.
- [33:19]
G
Anywhere else within our budget.
- [33:20]
F
It looks sharp and catches everyone's eye.
- [33:22]
G
Wayfair always delivers so quickly. You don't have to wait and second.
- [33:25]
F
Guess any decision making. It's already at your door.
- [33:27]
G
You can make confident choices that suit your style instantly. I like luxe, detail oriented, minimal, individual and stylish pieces and Wayfair's got me covered. I think about how the pieces in my home communicate with each other while being unique. And Wayfair is the best place to shop because your house is not going to look like everybody else's. It's going to reflect you. Wayfair has all your essentials for fall warm linens, Halloween decor, storage indoors and out, espresso machines, cozy reading chairs for homework time, ottomans to rest your feet after a long day in unwind at home. There's something for every style in every home, no matter your space or budget. Cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor. Find it all for way less@wayfair.com that's W a Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every.
- [34:13]
C
Home so it starts with Cam and her mother. They're on their way to the library and they have an encounter with a gray. And the grays are government enforcers. The library is being boarded up and she's got a stack of books in her hand and the gray says, you know those are illegal. And she kind of confronts him and I have added more in since that, but anyways, he swipes the books out of her hand. They end up on the sidewalk. Her mother's trying to get her to go home and she really wants the books back. Then the second part of that is they're at home. The lights go out, they end up outside with a few of the neighbors that are still left. And the Grays are coming around making government announcements because they don't have tv, they don't have electronics, and they're saying that they're now down to electricity, will be two hours a day, an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening, and that there will be a curfew implemented.
- [35:16]
E
Then.
- [35:16]
C
The next chapter introduces Ewan and Jax. They're still at the boys orphanage. And then Aaron, a friend of Ewan's, comes and asks Ewan to come to the Underground and be his right hand man.
- [35:33]
D
Okay, wonderful, Leslie, thank you so much. Okay, Cece, I think we're going to start with you.
- [35:38]
E
Cece has a lot of notes. I know we're running out of time. I will try to not ramble. My big picture note is this is not the right place to start. However, I will still give you notes on what you're doing because I hope they're useful for the other, other places as well. You are currently falling into a very common trap, which I call the blank canvas protagonist trap. She is not thinking. She is not futurizing. She is not anticipating. She is not catastrophizing. There's no specific specificity in her interiority. There's no imagination. She is coming across as. As someone who's totally. Her mind is a blank canvas. I will give you examples. First page. The Grays say the books are illegal. She says, since when? But what's going on in her mind? Is it typical for her to be this defiant? Is it unusual? Is she worried about her mother's reaction? Is she thinking about what the consequences are of the books being illegal? Could she go to jail? Could she be arrested? Once she starts the defiance, these things should be even more prominent. Like, do people disappear in this world? Has her neighbor disappeared? Is her fate going to be just like Emma's fate? Emma is her neighbor who disappeared. Like, what specific framework and what specific active emotions, fear and desire conveyed through surprise, is going on in her mind right now? It's all dialogue. All dialogue, no interiority. When she says to her, mom, please, Mom, I begged. What is she. Why, like, why is she doing that? Do the books mean that much to her? If so, why can she not imagine a life without books because they're the only pleasure she has left. Is it the only moment of peace she has in an otherwise whatever world? Because she's taking a big risk. I imagine confronting a gray, because based on everything you've told us about this world, it's a huge deal. When they walk several blocks and she asks her mom what's going on, there's no theories in her head. Like, if her mom's behavior was unusual, and I assume it was because she seemed sort of surprised, what are her theories about that? When she asks her mom, are you okay? Where's her interiority? Like, what fears are coming up for her? Like, what theories? And then she asks again a couple lines later, are you sure you're okay? And it's, there's nothing in her interiority. All we get is her dialogue, like, this is a script, this is not a book yet. Because in a book you need that. And then she raises her eyebrows, turns to her father. Is that common? Is that the dynamic of their relationship? Like, does she go to him for answers typically? Or is it unusual because her mom's acting so unusual that she finds she feels it weird to go look, seeking reassurance from her father? Her mom is doing the same thing. Now, in fairness, we're not in her mom's head, but clearing her throat again. My mother said, what's happening? And I'm at this point, I'm going, what's up with these people who just ask open ended question, what's happening? Like, that's not how human beings talk. Human beings go, so the power went off. They go, it's the fuse box or power outage, or did we forget to pay the bill? They ask questions like, is it just us? Wait, let me, let me go check the window. Is it the neighbors too? They pull up frameworks in their mind like, oh my God, this has been happening a lot. Or I can't remember the last time the power went out. Now I know that the specifics are going to depend on your world, but we need that interiority. When her father asks, do you hear that? There wasn't any indication of sound. So the protagonist isn't picking up on things. Did she not hear it? And if so, she should go hear what? Is my dad hearing voices? Or she should track and she should signal whatever he's hearing first. He's also doing it too. It's not just the women. Her father goes out and says, I wonder whether anyone knows what's going on. And I'm like, theories People, theories. We need theories. And then you have essentially like the Greek chorus, which I thought was really well done of like all the things that have been happening. I like that you made it so short that the paste in drag, that was really, really well done. And then we have her talking after the Greek chorus. And do you know what she says? She says, what is that? No. Telling you right now, Leslie. No. Not letting you. I'm not letting you get away with that. Like, no, she has theories. She's a thinking human being with a specific socio emotional framework. I want to learn. I want to connect with her. I will never connect with her. No one will ever connect with her unless you give us that specific framework. Because that's what makes us go, oh, that's the kind of person she is. You know, like, here's an example. You have two agents on the show, right? When Carly and I read things, we each pull up different socio emotional frameworks. Carly's a huge optimist. I'm a very well known pessimist. Like, there's different people who feel different things and theorize in different ways despite having the same job, right? So it's really, really important. So I again, I highlighted all the instances and I think you'll get tired of seeing my notes being like, okay, second note. I think that the dialogue when she's talking to her dad about the government is very info dumpy. So she asks, why are they doing this? Her father says, control. And then she goes, but shouldn't we be questioning them? Shouldn't a government have to explain? There's no way this is the first time she's asking this question. Like she lives in an authoritarian world. It's been going on for a while. To your point, it's the tail end of the virus. It just sounds info dumpy. It sounds like it's for the reader's benefit. And even though your story is for the reader, it can't sound like it's for the reader. Seduction doesn't feel like a service. Seduction feels like something that the person's doing because they're so seductive. And then you get to be there. Right? Even though it's 100% manipulation, but it can't feel like manipulation. And your job as a storyteller is to cerebrally seduce. So again, I thought it was super info dumpy. I didn't buy it. And when she notices that her mom is warm. So my whole theory is, you didn't give us her interiority when she was asking if her mom was okay because you didn't want her theoretically about the virus. And you don't want to give that away too early. If that is the case, have her think three different things and then the third thing be the virus and go, nope, I'm not even going to go there. Like, she can do that. She can suppress her own thoughts. But then by the end of chapter one, we need that. That being said, like I said, I don't think it's the right place to start. I just don't. I think that if you want to start the story, starting it in a moment where the disruption forces her to change her power imbalance is essential. Like in the beginning of the story, whatever the protagonist's place in the world is, whatever power they have needs to be established really quickly. And then the disruption needs to mess with that. She needs to either gain power or lose power. And right now she's the same. She's the same from beginning to end. And so that's why I don't think it's the right place to start. But yeah, those are my notes.
- [42:19]
D
Thank you, Cece. Okay, we'll hand it across to Kali.
- [42:22]
F
I also agree we're not starting in the right place. I obviously won't repeat everything that Cece said, but I'm very, I'm very obsessed now with this idea that there are not very many adults left in this world. So I think that's the, the place where we need to figure out. Not like explaining that, but you need to figure out a scene where it becomes brutally obvious that, that the children are shopping for their own groceries, that they teach themselves school. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, how can we show and demonstrate that this is a very kid centric world? Because one of the things I found really interesting in these pages was how young this gray was, right? This young dark haired gray. And then you said a child throwing a tantrum. And I made notes in here kind of about this. Like, how old is he? You know, they're scared of a child, right? That's super interesting to me that a grown woman would be scared of a child. Super fascinating to me. We didn't spend any time addressing this age stuff. And again, now that you're talking about this, I find this very fascinating. And this is a key, I think, to unlocking quite a bit about what is unique and special about this world. So I would figure out a way to show us how kid centric this world is and how this group of children, the gray children or teens or youths, however old they are, are being used as A tool. And then it might be kid again. I don't know. I. I just think there's something to unlock in that about the age and how, again, these children are being manipulated on that side. I agree with what cece said about this, like, Greek chorus business. I really liked the, like, staccato dialogue. I felt like I was out there on the street with them, like, overhearing what was happening. I had all the same notes about where is her internal curiosity? She's asking her parents these questions, but she has no thoughts of her own about this. Just, it makes no sense to me that teenagers would not theorize and go to their parents last because she would have been having these conversations with her parents for the last 10 years. Like a child in this environment, you know, by age 7, would have a foundational understanding of how their world works. And again, I believe she's a teen now. So those are kind of some of the reasons why I don't think we're starting in the right place. We're just not getting to the point where we're expressing the world in a way that is really story forward while explaining the consequences of. Of this world and how they affect our character at this time.
- [44:38]
D
Thank you, Carly. Okay, we're going to hand across to Lesley to either give us some replies or to ask some questions. Lesley.
- [44:46]
C
Okay, so because it starts with her and her parents, am I better off just to dump that whole thing and start after? And I've got a chapter where she ends up, her parents die and she ends up at the orphanage.
- [45:03]
F
So that was super confusing to me, the fact that she's at an orphanage and then the story opens with her parents. I thought that was strange. And that's why when I was writing those hooks, I was like, did she just abandon her parents? Did she get separated from them? I wasn't really clear on that. So if the parents do not have a central role in the story, then they cannot be in the opening scene, in my opinion.
- [45:23]
G
Or else this is essentially a prologue.
- [45:25]
F
Because it's a foundational moment that is kind of setting off the tone for the story of what's to come. But, CeCe, what do you think?
- [45:31]
E
I agree. And I think that Carly's reference to Gutter Child by J.L. richardson is the perfect novel from which to learn how to do this. So that book begins with, is it Elamina? Is that her name? I forget the protagonist's name. Arriving at what we will find out as an orphanage. But we get her active emotions first, like, she's being Driven. She's an outsider. She doesn't want to be there. She misses her mother. We find out her mother died. First we find out she misses her mother. Then we find out her mother dies. And when she arrives, she has this, on the surface, warm welcome from the principal and everyone else, but she's terrified. And then the chapter ends with her walking into a room where she sees all the children with two X's on their hands. And she goes, no, I don't belong here. I'm not a gutter child. No explanation about the gutter system. No info, dumpy dialogue about, oh, a, but we are here in the gutter world. Like, there's none of that. It's all the protagonist being incredibly, incredibly vulnerable and terrified, but still very active interiority, even though she says very little, but so active, the interiority. And by the end of the chapter when we get that line that, you know, she has one ex, everyone else has two. That alone is already like, what the heck? What is going on? I need to know. And we see her resist. We see her be. No. So I think that that, to me, is a perfect example of a really brilliant place to start because it just makes us so curious. Does it make me feel empathy for Lamina? Sure. But you know what? I'm not reading for the empathy, and no one out there is either. I don't care what anyone says. I'm reading for the curiosity. So is the next scene the right scene? I can't answer that. Carly can't answer that. Bianca can't answer that. No one can answer that. We haven't read it, first of all. Second of all, we're not the author. So the scene you need to write, whether it's choosing the next one or creating a whole new one, needs to have a disruption that really, really shifts her power, and it needs to make us deeply, deeply curious. You will know what that is when you crack it. Until then, just keep trying.
- [47:35]
C
Yeah, no, this is all very, very helpful. I know what I'm doing for the next two years of my life.
- [47:43]
F
Yeah.
- [47:43]
D
I mean, it's sometimes also so interesting to realize that someone who you thought was a main character might not actually, actually be a main character. And none of that was wasted. You write that to realize, okay, they're not the most compelling main character they're going to be in the story, but they're a secondary character or tertiary character. And then you find your way to the most exciting vehicles for the plot. Who are the people who are most active, who've got the most agency who are changing the story, who are defining it, who's tipping the dominoes? So, you know, all of this. This is what I talk about all the time in terms of circling the building. You are circling the building, and you're finding the best way in, and you're going to find it. Yeah, I 100% believe that.
- [48:26]
C
Yeah. No, that it's good. And it's. I knew something wasn't right and I couldn't put my finger on it. So there's a lot there.
- [48:35]
D
And that's. That's again, why I say that foundation is so important. When you've got a very solid act one and you start with the right characters and you start with the right POVs, and you start in the right, right place, the dominoes will tip and it'll make it so much easier for Act 2. But if you don't have a strong Act 1, it makes your Act 2 that much harder because you're still trying to figure everything out, and you can't figure out why it's not working, and it's just more. More and more frustrating. So spend more time on that act one, get it as strong as you possibly can, and then use that as a diving board into act two. All right, Leslie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being vulnerable with us and for putting your work out there. There is so much I'm sure our listeners have learned. I think there's so many of them who are exactly where you are, and you have helped them by sharing your work with us, and we really appreciate that. Thank you.
- [49:26]
C
Thank you.
- [49:27]
D
Carly and Cece, thanks so much for your input. And next week, we will be back with an author interview. Goodbye, everyone.
- [49:35]
B
Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
- [49:40]
D
If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
- [50:12]
A
What's up, everyone? This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher. Edits are a part of the game, but I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes, and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious and about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [51:44]
B
Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't as yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until 2nd November, with the match up emails going out on 3rd November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Match up tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.