Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: How to Find The Hook in Your Book
Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Special Guest: Leslie (winner, flash fiction contest)
Episode Overview
This episode dives deep into what makes a story “hooky” in the context of writing and pitching novels, focusing primarily on how to craft a compelling hook within a query letter. The hosts—author Bianca Marais and literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra—welcome listener and contest winner Leslie to workshop her query for a YA dystopian novel. Together, they dissect Leslie’s submission, discuss elements that create curiosity and stakes, and offer practical formulas for constructing attention-grabbing hooks. The episode features honest, actionable feedback, particularly focusing on proactivity in characters, plot stakes, and the unique features of a manuscript that can set it apart in a crowded market.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Importance of Curiosity in Queries
- CeCe Lyra (00:00): Opens by emphasizing that making the reader curious is the foundational goal of a good story and, by extension,a strong query letter.
- Writers need to foreground tension, conflict, and stakes to maintain curiosity.
2. Leslie’s Query Letter Read-Aloud
- Leslie (03:57): Reads her query for her YA dystopian novel The Fence, introducing a post-pandemic city of orphans, government surveillance, and a budding rebellion.
3. Initial Agent Feedback: Where’s the Hook?
- Carly Watters (06:12):
- Highlights that dystopian government tropes are common; the pitch needs to spotlight what’s unique here.
- Identifies the orphan-centric aspect as a possible standout.
- Offers multiple formulas for hooks, such as:
- Character–Goal–Obstacle: (“A loner kicked out of a government orphanage must survive...”)
- Situation–Complication: (“When a break-in depletes Cam’s food, she must...”)
- Desire–Conflict–‘In a World’: (“In a world where government tyranny reigns, Cam wants to...”)
- Twist-Driven or High Stakes: (“A desperate attempt to survive turns into a race to expose a government conspiracy...”)
- Quote: “...So we need to figure out what it is, how to communicate it, all of that sort of good stuff.” (06:12)
4. Critique of Plot as Presented in the Query
- CeCe Lyra (13:19):
- Points out the difference between information and curiosity in plot summaries.
- Notes the query was empathetic but low on real stakes or active conflict.
- Urges clarity about antagonistic forces and active, pressure-induced motivations for the protagonist.
- Quote: “The purpose of a query letter more than anything else is to create tension, conflict, and stakes.” (13:19)
- Lays out the plot beat-by-beat and calls for less passivity, more escalation, and clearer motivation.
5. Digging Deeper: Author’s Intent & World-Building Nuances
- Leslie (18:33): Shares challenges about dual POVs, delayed protagonist involvement, and how the story intertwines through timelines.
- Discusses the background of a government-created virus that eliminates adults, leaving only vaccinated children—a key element missing from the original query.
6. The “No Virus Stories” Myth
- Group Discussion (~20:21):
- Carla and Cece clarify that “no virus stories” is not a universal industry rule.
- Strong stories with virus elements can still find their audience, especially as the pandemic recedes from recent memory.
- CeCe Lyra (21:07): “If your story has a virus, the virus needs to go in the query letter...I just wouldn’t care at all. I want an unforgettable character going on a compelling journey.”
7. The Issue of Agency and Proactive Characters
- CeCe & Carly (25:21–28:38):
- Reiterate the protagonist needs active motivation; plot points must rise from their agency, not just reactions.
- Warn against “safe” plotting: Not torturing the protagonist enough can make stakes feel flat.
- Urge Leslie to “stop protecting her characters” and let them make tough, high-stakes choices.
8. Multi-POV and Reader Experience
- Carly and Bianca (30:21, 31:09):
- Each POV must have inciting incidents, stakes, and compelling agency.
- Recommend mapping character wants and how each choice impacts the story’s domino effect.
- Bianca Marais (31:09): “Each character needs to have protagonism and agency...what decisions is she making? That’s what gives your character agency.”
9. Craft Note: Starting in the Right Place
- CeCe Lyra (35:37):
- Critiques opening pages for lack of interiority and “blank canvas protagonist” syndrome.
- Urges specific thoughts, theories, fears, and active emotions, not just dialogue.
- Calls for less info-dumping and more world immersion through the protagonist’s emotional lens.
- Suggests beginning at the point where a power shift disrupts the character’s world—not in a static or neutral moment.
- Quote: “You need to stop protecting her, essentially. Stop protecting your characters. Torture them.” (28:38)
10. World-Building Strengths and Missing Opportunities
- Carly (42:22):
- Finds the “kids-only world” element most distinctive; urges this to be foregrounded in both world-building and on the page.
- Suggests vivid scene-setting to showcase this unique society in action.
11. Revision Path and Emotional Resilience
- Collective Closing (47:34–49:25):
- Leslie feels prepared for “the next two years” of revision, reflecting on the ambition of her goals.
- The hosts provide encouragement: Realizing a character isn’t the protagonist, or that a story needs total revision, is a vital step toward improvement.
- Bianca Marais (47:43): “None of that was wasted...you write that to realize, okay, they’re not the most compelling main character.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- CeCe Lyra (13:19):
“The purpose of a query letter more than anything else is to create tension, conflict, and stakes.” - Carly Watters (06:12):
"I want to focus on a couple things for our time together. One of them is your hook, because, again, this is Books with Hooks." - CeCe Lyra (28:38):
“You need to stop protecting her, essentially. Stop protecting your characters. Torture them.” - Bianca Marais (31:09):
“Each character needs to have protagonism and agency...what decisions is she making? That’s what gives your character agency.” - CeCe Lyra (35:37):
“She is coming across as someone who's totally... her mind is a blank canvas... All dialogue, no interiority... This is a script, this is not a book yet.” - Carly Watters (45:02):
“If the parents do not have a central role in the story, then they cannot be in the opening scene, in my opinion.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:00–02:32: Intro and Housekeeping
- 03:57–05:47: Leslie reads her query letter
- 06:12–13:13: Carly’s first critique—hook formulas and market positioning
- 13:19–18:22: CeCe’s critique—needs for curiosity, stakes, and agency
- 18:33–24:35: Leslie’s clarification on world-building, POV, and virus backstory
- 20:21–23:40: “No virus stories” discussion
- 25:21–28:38: Agency, pressure, and character intervention
- 30:21–31:48: POV strategy for reader engagement
- 35:37–44:38: Critiques of novel pages, blank canvas protagonist, and world-building
- 45:02–47:34: Discussion on opening scenes and choosing the right POV
- 47:34–49:25: Closing encouragements and lessons on revision
Episode Takeaways
- Curiosity is king in queries—empathy alone does not equal suspense or stakes.
- Active protagonists and rising stakes are essential on every page and in every query.
- Don’t avoid industry “red flags” (like virus plots) by omission—own your story’s truths and build your hook around what makes it distinctive.
- Every POV character must have agency, motivation, and escalating obstacles to keep readers engaged.
- Interior life matters: Thought processes, speculation, and emotion should be vividly present, not just action and dialogue.
- Revision is iterative: Sometimes, the process reveals the real protagonist or the true heart of a manuscript only after much trial and error.
This episode is an invaluable listen for any aspiring author or querying writer who feels “stuck” and is looking to construct a stronger, more marketable hook for their work-in-progress.