← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
How to Make Agents Curious While Also Impressing Them With Your Line Level Writing
00:48:27
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
A
What's up, everyone? This is Cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush pile? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.
- [00:48]
B
Years.
- [00:49]
A
Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd. We'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for Writing interiority and psychological Acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded. And for more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [01:35]
B
Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. Today we're super excited because we have the author joining us on the show and we always love when that happens. But today especially, we are joined by Sarah Miller Adams. Sarah, welcome to the show.
- [02:05]
C
Thanks. Glad to be here. It's kind of cool, kind of terrifying, but great.
- [02:11]
B
It's amazing to have you here. Okay, so we are going to kick things off immediately and we're going to ask Sarah to please read her query letter.
- [02:19]
C
All right. Dear Canadian Trio, the shit no one tells you about writing has been my mfa, my accountability system, and the reason I flinch when anyone says stakes. Carla keeps me grounded, Cece pushes me deeper, and Bianca keeps me from burning pages at 2am sending bilateral breathing with your voices in my ear feels right. If it sparks a CNC duel, I'll make popcorn. Three mid career women in medicine gave everything to their work. Now they must reclaim what it cost them. Their purpose is their power and a life still worth living. Bilateral breathing, 77,000 words is an upmarket literary leaning embodied fiction novel probed in rotating close third person POVs. It moves like a body under stress, short, staccato rhythmic sentences blending Elisha Fox emotional clarity with Annabelle Monaghan's intimacy and the character driven depth of Elizabeth Strout. Dr. Eve Miller, 54, facing menopause and professional exile after resident patient mishap she did not cause, is shut from the family medicine teaching clinic she built. Dr. Hannah English, 39, in OBGYN, longs for a life beyond surgical control and the ache of infertility. Her work will not let her outrun. Janet Fitzgerald, 51, a nurse practitioner with a background in social work silenced by a failing marriage, fights to reclaim the voice she lost keeping everything together. Eve reluctantly joins best friends Hannah and Janet in reopening in a shuttered rural Alabama clinic Through a new rural medicine initiative in Whitehall, the town's widowed sheriff, Danny King becomes an unexpected steadiness for the three women. A norovirus outbreak and a life flight obstetric emergency define their early months. Each crisis tightens their bond and tests their skill. When a hoardant attack nearly kills Dani, it detonates everything they have kept contained. As the year unfolds, the three grow closer, bound by a friendship forged under everything they have survived. However, when a betrayal and an unexpected pregnancy fracture the trio, each woman is forced to live without the comfort of the unit that once held them together. They must decide whether they are in Whitehall to heal what medicine broke or return to the university that broke them. I am a playwright turned novelist based in Alabama. I do not write as a clinician. I write from the south I live in, shaped by decades long physician friendships and my own experience with infertility. My work centers emotional truth, sharp observation and the quiet costs of care.
- [04:59]
B
Thank you so much, Sarah. I think we can all agree that Sarah has got the best voice we've ever heard on this podcast and the rest of us would happily speak swap out ours for the dulcet tones of hers. Right? Okay, so Carly, we are going to hand it across to you. Can you please kick us off there?
- [05:18]
C
Yeah.
- [05:18]
D
I can't remember if we said this off the top, but 334 words was the query letter. Obviously there's a lovely little introduction and we're so glad to have you on the show, Sarah. As I say every time, it's my my favorite day of the month when we get to have the authors on. So I'M so glad. Okay. I usually start at the top, so. So, okay, so title. This feels a little bit clinical to me, right? Like bilateral. You know, I honestly, I'd be like, what does that mean? Like bi, half, lateral, either side. So I'm like half and half breathing, but then there's like a trio of POVs. So then I'm like, well, by means two. Again, you can correct me. Anybody listening to this who knows more about science than me. But by, in my mind, means two, but then there's three POVs. So I don't know. I just feel like there's a number of ways that maybe the title isn't working as well as it can. Also sounds a bit nonfiction, Right. A little bit clinical. So I. I think I like the breathing part. So I would do a, like the Blankety Blank of breathing. Like, you know, that type of title if we're going more up market. So I play around with that a little bit. Okay. So one of my big things that I always say with multi POV stories is how are these stories united as opposed to three women living a life? Because the way that you presented it so suggests that there is a reason that these women are telling their stories alongside each other, but you also introduce them very separately. And so I would like it if we started with the reason that they are all together or the implosion, like a hook that alludes to the implosion that's going to happen. Or again, like the reason that they're all brought together under this storyline. That's something I think that's. That's definitely missing here because to me, they just sound like coworkers that don't really know each other. And then we get to the point where their best friend. I don't find out their best friends till chapter, till paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Right. And so, yeah, I just would have loved to know maybe what it was that brought them together as best friends and. Or the implosion of why we're telling the story between these POVs. I would also say that this is probably literary. You give us comps Elifak, Annabelle Monaghan, and Elizabeth Strout. So I would probably say we need to cut the Annabelle Monaghan, who we love, of course. But in terms of the applicability to this story, I would probably stick with the literary comps, in my opinion. And they're also. Yeah, just three very, very different writers. Okay. And then the technicality of introducing the characters. So you say Dr. Eve Miller, 54, you know, Dr. Hannah English 39 Janet Fitzgerald 51 so that's much more of a synopsis, style introduction of characters. I don't know how much we need to point out their ages. Unless you feel like, I don't know, we can't understand the story without it. We all because you say earlier on there are three mid career women, so we can assume that mid career is within this range. So I don't think we have to name their ages in that sense. So that I think that we can probably part with that. The other thing is it does sound like a lot of kind of like setup and backstory. Right. So you know, we say Dr. Eve Miller, facing menopause, professional exile after a resident patient mishap she did not cause is shoved from the family medicine teaching clinic she built. I'm not clear if that happens like before we meet her on the page or whether that is the plot of the book. Same with all three of their introductions. So again, I would want to know what is happening in the story currently versus more importantly than what happened before or if you think that we have to know that about them again, I would find a way to weave that into the connection between the three women. Yeah, so all of it's super interesting all to say. This sounds great, it sounds super interesting, sounds like a book. But I'm just not clear on like what is actually the plot now versus what is the setup beforehand. Okay, I want to go to the last paragraph. So your lovely author bio paragraph. So you talk about your decades long physician friendships. I think maybe you should name whether they've read it like as sensitivity readers of sort. Because you just say obviously it was like shaped by your friendships and your own experience with infertility. But sometimes if you know these three characters are that much outside your lived experience, you might just want to make a like you know and you know, so and so ob gyn read this and you know, da da da da. Just find a way to kind of allude to the fact that like they did a sensitivity read. Obviously some of this is from your own experience, which is great. But if you're going to mention the friendships and the fact that you're not a doctor, you might just want to allude to that piece there and then the last line. My work centers on emotional truth, observations and the quiet costs of care, which is great. I would say the queries job and the plot's job is to show that instead of tell that. So I would probably just cut that line and then buy some of the tips that I gave you'll probably be able to show that through the plot, but sounds really interesting and good job. And I'll turn that over to the. The other two.
- [09:55]
B
Okay, Cece, we're going to hand it across to you now. Something that I'm always fascinated by in terms of the query letters, when they are multi POV characters, is that I know a lot of the times we say focus on the main, main character in the query letter and allude to the others. And I know, Cece, you've. You don't have to say what kind of POV it's written in. So let's hear how that all comes together over here in terms of Cece's advice.
- [10:21]
E
I'm so glad you're here with us, Sarah. I need to say that first and foremost. Okay, so from the top, you're calling this upmarket literary leaning. I am a firm believer that all upmarket stories, they either skew commercial or literary. Like, they're still upmarket, but there's always a tiny, tiny bit of like a, you know, extra little sea salt on top. And that sea salt can be literary or commercial. And it's really good for you to know, like, where you stand if you write upmarket, whether the you is Sarah or anyone else. But I don't think you have to say that in the query letter because I feel like it could give the impression to the agent that you're, like, not sure how to position this. So I would call it one thing. When I read the query letter, I actually thought to myself, I'm going to tell Sarah to call it upmarket. But then when I read the pages, I was like, I'm going to tell Sarah to call it literary because you're writing. Writing is very literary. But, you know, we'll get to that when we get to the pages. But really, my advice is pick one. Pick whichever one you feel best represents your story. I also, again, love the self awareness that you know what your writing sounds like. You call this. You refer to your own writing as a body moving under stress. Short, staccato, rhythmic sentences. And again, the self awareness is spot on because I've read your pages now, and that is a very accurate description. I don't think we need information on that in the query letter, though. Like, I will find out once I scroll down and read the pages. By I mean any agent, you don't need to promise us what the writing is going to sound like. It's one of those things where it's best experienced as opposed to described. It's almost like, it removes some of the magic when you describe it. And this is really interesting to me because I'm such a, like, writing forward person. So you would think that cece would want to know what the writing sounds like, but I think I want to, like, find out, as opposed to be told. It's an interesting discussion, I think. You know, like, should writers share info in their query letter about the quality of the writing? And by quality, I don't mean, like, high quality, low quality. I mean the type of writing. And I think. I think no. Okay, let's talk of a plot paragraph. The fact that you're doing, you know, Dr. Eve Miller, 54. Dr. Hannah English, 39, Janet Fitzgerald, 51. And then you're getting to the story. It's almost like you have two different beginnings in your query letter. And I'm not sure I liked that. I would prefer to all be baked into, like, one really strong plot paragraph or a couple of plot paragraphs. I also wondered, and this is such a minor thing, but you know how my brain works. Like, with Dr. Eve Miller, you're saying that she is facing menopause and professional exile. And then in the next clause, you say she's shoved from the family medicine clinic. And I'm like, isn't that the same as exile? Like, being shoved from and experiencing professional exile? So I'm just wondering if you're, like, saying the same thing twice. But after reading those first three lines, the lines that share their internal struggles, I will be very real with you. I felt empathy for them. I didn't feel curious. And I suspect it's because all the information was internal. You know, we learned that one of them longs for a life beyond surgical control, and the other one wants to reclaim her voice. And that's, like, very zoomed out, very internal. And there's no specificity for my mind for my brain to attach itself to. And that specificity not being there makes me go, huh? And then I was like, great, because we have the plot paragraph, and that's going to have specificity, and we both do and we don't. So here's what I know about the story from the plot paragraphs, not the backstory. Okay, here's what I know about the story. The present day timeline. There are three doctors, and they're also friends. They reopen a rural Alabama clinic. There is a sheriff. There is a norovirus outbreak. There is an obstetric emergency. There is a hornet attack. And there is a betrayal. Oh, there's also an unexpected pregnancy. Notice how I Shared all these plot points in a way that did not show causality between them. We didn't have that dominoes tipping over. You know, one thing led to another effect. We also didn't have, this is even more important attachment to each protagonist. Like, we find out about the sheriff who gets a name on the query letter. And I'm like, is there a love interest with the sheriff? Is the sheriff helping them? You know, they're getting death threats. The sheriff is helping, like, figure out who's sending them death threats. And even the plot points, which are in and of themselves quite interesting. You know, when a pandemic, it's not quite a pandemic, but like a big virus outbreak and a big emergency. And the betrayal. Like, I love stories that have betrayal and sacrifice. I feel like that's. That's the ingredients to every great story. But these are all very, like, zoomed out things. I don't know what that means. I don't know what detonates. Everything they have kept contained means. I don't know what the betrayal is. And so they're. Right now, your plot points are not specific enough. You know, like, I. And they're not connected to each protagonist in a way that indicates causality. And I thought to myself, like, I really want to know. Because when a story has three strong women, relationships between women, stories that depict relish relationships between women, whether that's mother, daughter, sisters, best friends. These are some of my favorite stories because I'm obsessed with relationship between women. Like, I just find it to be so interesting because women's inner lives are so interesting.
- [15:49]
D
Interesting.
- [15:50]
E
So I really wanted more on that. I will respectfully disagree with Carly about the last line, because I have to tell you, when I got to the author paragraph, like, in theory, I agree we don't need to be told themes or what your work is doing. Your plot paragraph should do that. But the quiet cost of care is such a beautiful way to put it that I'm like, can we find a way to keep just that part? Because it's so good. And I think that every woman picking up this book and, like, taking a look at the jacket copy would go, oh, my God, that's me. I experience the quiet cost of care. High cost, but quiet. You know, we talk about invisible labor a lot, but we don't necessarily like. I've never seen it framed in that way. And I thought it was beautiful.
- [16:30]
B
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Sarah, we're going to hand it across to you now. You can either answer some of the questions I've had, or you can pose questions of your own. Let's unpack it.
- [16:40]
C
Okay, Carly, love you, but we're going to. We're fighting over the title. Bilateral breathing is a medical term, and it's also a swimming term. And once you read the pages, it becomes very clear. It's also in the novel, in a moment of what bilateral breathing is. I understand what you're saying, but it's twofold. It's medicine and swimming and balance. That's the biggest thing. Balance. Bilateral breathing. You can't breathe with just lung, one lung. I mean, you can, but you have to have balance in your life, in breathing and everything. The easiest way to describe the, you know, and I just kind of made some notes, and the three women, as an overarching thing for Carly is, yes, we have a. We have Eve as the main, you know, spine, but it is an isosceles triangle. And I will use this as an example with you guys. Bianca is the engine of the podcast, and you and Cece are the transmission and wheels. You're not moving without all three of you. But Bianca holds the. Holds the podcast together. So like an isosceles triangle, if one side disappears or both sides disappear and you just become a line, it may be a great line, but it's still just a line. So you got to have that. That's why they're. And I know that you've made it very clear that I have not made it clear how the three of them interact, but without them, she can't survive her story, and without her, they can't survive their story. So it is. It is all meshed together, you know, as an engine and then literary. The issue, and you saw it, or we'll discuss it in the pages, is the Shafak, Strout, and Monahan is. There is a little sprinkling of each one. It's not just me focusing on Shafak. It's not me just focusing on Strout, like Olive Kittredge. It's Monahan's. You know, Monahan makes everything very easy to. To digest. I'm bridging the river between all three of them. And so that's answering that question. And then I'll go back to cece. Embodied fiction is a thing, and that's why I put it. Let me scroll back up, because I wanted to say it moves like a body under stress. Because a lot of people don't understand embodied fiction. They may know it from psychology, but I'm coming from a theater background where embodied fiction is the way you do it. And I walk through life like that, you know, that's the way I think and the way I do, for the lack of a better word. So that's why I felt like I had to explain the embodied fiction, especially for somebody that may be like, you know, it's the. It's the shit podcast, so I can say it. What the hell does that mean? But again, taking the close third person out, I get that too, but. And the introducing each character, and this goes to CeCe and Carly. I understand that maybe I over framed it, under framed it, whatever. But each one of them has a reason in this story. It's not just a jumble. So that's where I was going through that. And of course, I understand what cece is saying about zooming out too far. But again, you know, 400 words or less. How do you do that?
- [20:28]
D
Yeah. Okay. I want to hop in. So. Okay, I guess I'll ask a question first. When do they reopen this shuttered rural Alabama clinic? Is this like an inciting incident?
- [20:40]
C
Yes, but it is. But they have to. We have to see the life. And then because it's the pressure, pressure, pressure. Then once they move to Whitehall, everything just kind of, you know, everything they've built. Because medicine is all containment. It's the way you speak and move through the world. It's. It's a way that you're trained to hold your emotions down. So we have to see that first and then blow it up.
- [21:07]
D
So what percentage into the book would you say that they open this clinic?
- [21:11]
C
I think it's chapter five.
- [21:14]
D
Okay, so I'm going to posit a theory of speaking containers, like, about how we can maybe frame this. I would maybe suggest that. And again, it's your book, correct me if I'm wrong, but this clinic almost is a character, or this clinic is going to be a main setting. This clinic is a main identity for the women and the book based on the way that everything's going to happen within it. So I'm thinking if you feel like these women's three storylines are running parallel, obviously there's some intersection. I'm wondering if the through line here can be the clinic, and maybe you can introduce the clinic as, you know, this organism or this type of character as a setting that could maybe help you frame this a little bit. Would that be helpful?
- [21:58]
C
Maybe. But also, it's the town, because, you know, they're coming from, you know, big city, and they're going to a town that really doesn't want them because they're Outsiders and all the good stuff. So it is the town and the clinic. The clinic is what contains them because that's medicine. They can operate on autopilot. It's all the other things. It's meeting Danny, it's him settling all three spot lines and so forth. But, yes, that makes sense of working in the clinic.
- [22:30]
E
Cece, did you just say the town doesn't want them?
- [22:34]
C
It is implied. Some. Some of the town, because they don't have the hospital closed and they don't have. They don't have health care. If you know anything about rural medicine, it's a nightmare. It really, truly is. You drive an hour to see someone.
- [22:48]
B
But I'm.
- [22:49]
E
I'm just going to interrupt you for a second.
- [22:51]
C
Sure, go ahead.
- [22:51]
E
That's not the point. The point is, if the town doesn't want them, that's excellent. And you have to make that clear in the query letter because it ups the stakes, it ups the tension. Like, these are three women, unwanted, you know, who are up against the town, who doesn't want them there. Like, that's. That to me, could tie the domino effect.
- [23:11]
C
Could.
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E
Could help tie the domino effects. So that's.
- [23:15]
D
That.
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E
When you said that, my eyes went, you know, because I'm like, ooh, outsiders. Ooh, up against. The town doesn't want them. You know, like. Especially with healthcare, which is such a hot topic. That's so divisive and that includes so many things, you know, that's juicy. What we want to do in a query letter is up the curiosity, because you might have an explanation for every single line here, and I believe that you do. But readers aren't going to talk to you to figure out what the explanation is. Readers are going to read it and go, I'm curious or I'm not. And so if you have these elements, highlight them.
- [23:46]
D
So is the common goal that these women are then trying to bring health care to this rural town? Who has an absence of health care?
- [23:57]
C
I mean, that's the. That's the sidecar, it's the frame in which they reckon all of their stuff.
- [24:06]
D
Yeah. Because I think you just need a container, you need a vehicle. So I'm thinking you either have to, as Cece would say, expand on the fact that these three women coming together, trying to bring some health care. There's a lot of tension in the town, which, as CeCe pointed out, was great. You know, that's just a way to kind of explain why these three women. Why now? Because I just don't think we're at the Point where we understand why these three women and why now in particular. But anyway.
- [24:30]
B
Okay, Sarah, moving it back to you.
- [24:33]
C
I don't. I mean, we've kind of covered some of the questions as we were going, and I know that I just have to figure out the container, you know, and it ain't this Tupperware. It's got. It's. I got to upgrade my Tupperware. But I guess. I mean. And the biggest thing is, what about the three introductions? That's my only question. What about the three introductions?
- [24:54]
B
So, Carly, can I move this back to you? Because you've often said, you know, there's different ways to frame the story. It's like in a world where. Or whatever. Like, is there some kind of suggestion you can have in terms of that? Because I don't think it's working. Introducing the three characters separately. And like you say, you need to explain how they all related to each other while upping that tension. Is there something we can do around that town? And then the introduction of each of the women, that doesn't quite feel like boom, boom, boom.
- [25:23]
D
Right?
- [25:24]
C
So.
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D
Some options would be, like, the character goal obstacle. This is why I keep trying to figure out what the goal is here. Like, there's the character goal obstacle, right? So there's our three characters. What are their singular goal. You're. I think right now you're focusing maybe on their independent goals. So the character this is goals, but obviously we want the goal to be singular. And then the obstacle, like, what is the obstacle they're coming up against? For example, three doctors trying to bring medicine to a rural community. Obstacle. They get to the town, as Cece said, they get to the town and they're not wanted, or they can't find a way to fit in within the town. That's a simplified version. Obviously, we spend a bit more time on this. Like a what if question version of the hook would be, what if three female doctors who, you know, need to start a new life for XYZ reason, you know, think they're going to make a difference in this town, and an outbreak breaks out. So, you know what I'm trying to say? Like, we need to figure out the character goal obstacle. What other ideas could we do? We could do the character situation complication, which is what. That was what I was trying to get at when we were talking about the situation, meaning the clinic. So the characters, the situation they find themselves in. They find themselves at this clinic or rebuilding this clinic, and then what's the complication when they build the clinic? Slightly different way to think about what CC was saying with them not being wanted. So, yeah, I think it is challenging with the three. That's why we say this every time we do a multi POV query. It's like, it is really tricky. So I think you either. And it sounds like you can't really centralize one person. You feel very strongly that the three of them. Making my little triangle, that the three of them are part of it. So it's figuring out how they're connected, what's their goal and comp. Their goal, an obstacle or what's their situation and complication. So that would be what I would focus on.
- [27:17]
C
Okay, thanks. Appreciate it greatly.
- [27:21]
B
Okay. All right, so we're running out of time there, so let's move on to the pages. Sarah, can you give us an overview of what's in them?
- [27:29]
C
We open with Eve feeling all the external pressure from everything that's in her life, past and present. Swimming. That's her containment. That's it. That's the way she processes everything. And she can have her anger, you know, gloat free. So she's swimming and going through all the internal pressures. Then she stops swimming and goes inside and still grasps for something to contain what's spiraling in her. And there's a resident fellow in her bed and. Well, anyway. And then Janet and Hannah arrive, bused in the house with the dog to get ready for their third Thursday community outreach clinic that they. They religiously do. And it's. It's their. Their friendship colliding with pressure in Eve. And it kind of stabilizes everybody, but everybody has their own thing. And then they kind of, you know, run through, this is our life, get over it, move on. And yes, there's a man in your bed. And we're just. This is us.
- [28:41]
B
Thank you, Sarah. Okay, before we go to Colleen Cece's take on that, we're just going to have a word from our sponsors. Alrighty. Cece, I'm going to hand it straight to you. Tell us what you think.
- [28:57]
E
I first want to commend how still I still don't have a word for it. I've been thinking about a word for this since yesterday. I'm gonna have to use a very generic word that's unworthy of your pages. I want to commend how beautiful the writing is. You know, I thought that that was A lot of times people pitch things as, you know, the sentences, arithmetic. And I'm like, right, right. They're super arithmetic. I'm sure they are. Most of the time they're not. And this is. And so you know that. And I think that you should be very proud of that.
- [29:25]
A
Sure you are.
- [29:26]
E
But I'll say it anyway. I. I love. I love rhythm in writing. And I think that you. You have a very developed author voice, and that's always a joy to see. Okay, let's talk about, like, where we are. Where we are in the story when we. When we. When we first meet these women. So I feel like most storytellers, if not all storytellers, understand that their opening pages, that the job of that is to tell us what's happening in the protagonist's life. And they have to pick a what is happening. A specific what is happening. Woman going to the grocery store, couple walking into a wedding. It could be anything, Right? And again, like I said, most, if not all storytellers understand the external nature of the what is happening. The scene that a camera could capture. In this case, Eve swimming. Eve is swimming. Savvy storytellers understand that that's just half the job. The other half is capturing what's happening internally, what's happening in their inner life. And you have to pick that just as carefully, if not even more carefully, than what's happening externally. So externally we have a woman swimming. Internally we have a woman going through. And you didn't share this in your summary, so I'm not going to be the one to ruin it. But she is going through. Like she's thinking about what's happening in her life in a way that is like. Like there's a lot, you know, like there is a lot going on. We understand that her useless ex nearly killed her. We understand that Mara. Who is Mara? We don't know yet. And that's good. No namesplaining, but Mara died unexpectedly. We understand that there was a system that failed her. And we understand that she's wounded. Deeply, deeply wounded. Do we know this specific exact shape, all encompassing? No, and neither are we supposed to, because that would be like killing the tension. But come on, like, that is a big thing, right? So we also know that there are antagonistic forces.
- [31:19]
B
The.
- [31:21]
E
So the Dean. And I'm not sure if it's Doss, the Dean and the rest, or if it's Doss, another person, the Dean, because the Oxford comma. I think it's Doss being the Dean, but I'm not sure. But that's also not the point. The point is there are antagonistic forces with specificity and that she is very defiant. She refuses to break. Not for das, not for the system, not for anyone, that she's going to keep on fighting. So. So we have so much on her spirit and what she's up against. And that's great. Like, that's all amazing. I will say, though. And again, this is a matter of taste. And if your story is literary, you get to choose. This is not something that you say that you have to follow. Well, you don't have to follow anything that we say, but this is something that literary fiction can do if you want to. I don't think you should, but you can if you want to. I think that what's happening externally needs to be just as compelling right now. Her swimming, frankly, way more tedious than I would have liked, you know, Like, I get that it matches the themes of the books. I get that it matches the title. And sure, you're gonna have her swimming, but something else needs to be happening with externality to really up the tension, because. And this is what I was getting at when I was talking about, like, when a storyteller opens a book, they're. They're sharing two lives, the inner life and the external life. A lot of people go, oh, I have so much juiciness to share in the inner life that I'm gonna have a scene that's not as juicy, you know, because they don't want to, like, remove from. They don't want to take attention from what's happening in the protagonist's mind. But that, in my opinion, is a mistake. We need the external scene to be just as compelling as what's happening in their mind, because we need to understand this is a book that has plot, that has things that the protagonist is up against externally, too. Not just with her telling us, but with us seeing it. So I don't think that she should be alone swimming. Like, I don't think that's compelling enough. And then the second part of that, which is, you know, her having this man in her bed and her friends walking in, I didn't see. And I think this is intentional, but you can tell us. I didn't see her, like, bothered by the fact that her friends walked in while he was there or anything. Like, there didn't seem to be, like, any power imbalances at play. And I always say, like, wherever you start your story, your protagonist needs to be facing power dynamics that are interesting and juicy. And power dynamics can include power struggle. It can include threats to power, temptations to power. But power is necessary. Power dynamics are necessary. And they just seem to get along, like. And they're so, like, basically there doesn't seem to be any messy power dynamics between them, which I think is the intention, because they're good friends and why should there be messy power dynamics? But then I just don't know that that's the right place to start. I feel like these are things that can exist in the book, but to start, you really want to, like, grab your reader and make the reader go, ooh, juicy. And I'm not feeling that here I am feeling beautiful writing. Beautiful, beautiful writing.
- [34:03]
B
Right, Cece, thank you so much. Okay, Carly, we're handing it across to you now.
- [34:09]
D
All right, so we started with a timestamp. I love a timestamp. I used to have a timestamp jingle. I don't even know what it is anymore. I'll have to make up a new one. What I also think we need, though, is a location stamp. Because my Canadian born person was like, we're swimming outdoors in late February. I honestly thought she had an indoor pool. Like where I grew up, fancy people had indoor pools because you couldn't like swim in the winter. So I don't know. Obviously this is very particular to me, but there is a huge larger, you know, portion of your readership that'll be from, you know, northern us, Canada, etcetera, Hopefully globally, lots of readers. So I would just put the location stamp in there so it's a bit more clear about the fact that she's swimming outside at that time of year. I think that would help a little bit because right away I was trying to be like is because in my mind again, if. If it was February and I was swimming at 4:00am, I'd be like, what time did the pool open? So that I'd have to go to the gym to do the swimmin. So the logistic, whenever I get tripped up with logistics, it just slows down me being able to like get my entry point into the story. So I really think just a location stamp would be able to solve that pretty quickly. There's so many beautiful lines. You know, I really liked the first line. And we'll talk about lines and sentences in a second. But you know, 4am isn't night, isn't morning either. A dark hour. That belongs to Eve Miller. I love that. You know, I think it sets the tone also for kind of that punchy writing. And so I want to talk a little bit about the balance between the more punchier sentences. So in my opinion, and I apologize to CC in advance for talking about sports, I can't not talk about sports. But so if you're watching on YouTube, basically, the way that I feel about this is like, a boxing sense, right? Because I feel like you're doing, like, jab, jab, right? You're doing quick sentence, quick sentence, but then you're not coming around for the hook, right? It's like, jab, jab, right, Punch, punch. And then, like, it takes time to come around for the hook. And you're. You're watching on YouTube. Cece's trying to make this year. But. So I don't know. For me, I just. I was Kept waiting for the. Like, it was jab, jab. And I kept waiting for the hook, right? The slow. Because then the person's thinking, okay, quick hit, quick hit. And then. Then all of a sudden, when you go slow, they're not ready for it. So I felt like you were so on your toes in this, like, so on the short sentences, that it's created a sense of urgency. But I wasn't sure what we were urgent for because she, again, is in the pool, and swimming is an endurance activity, right? So it's like, you know, it can be quick, obviously, for doing sprints, but it is still an endurance activity to a certain sense, because you're doing these, like, longer, you know, laps back and forth. So I just. I don't know. I just felt. And maybe it's intentional. Sometimes imbalance is intentional, especially in literary fiction, and that's the point. But I. My mind was just kind of trying to figure out how we can kind of bring all these things together so that they're in communication with each other a bit more. So that would just be my feedback on, you know, when are we doing the quick sentences? When are we doing the longer sentences? I think that we need to play around with that a little bit more. I also really felt like this was actually quite cinematic with her in the pool. Once I figured out where we were, I felt like it was. It was really cinematic. So I also felt like if we were filming this, we would see her, like, touch the wall, do this, you know, do the change, kick, switch. And then it'd be, like, cutting between, like and I. So I could see this in a cinematic way, in a book way. I felt like you were introducing a lot of characters that I didn't know, and so that I was like, okay, who am I supposed to be focused on here? We're just trying to get introduced to her, and then we're, you know, talking about the ex and Mara and the work, and then the best friends show up, and then she Got a man in her bed. And I'm like, okay, that's a lot of people for five pages. So that felt a little. Again, a little unbalanced to me, but there's some. Again. And every time I'm, you know, making a comment about what I think could use some revision, I also make a note about what I really liked. You know, I really liked the line. Her career isn't a parking spot to claim. Beautiful line. That's so, so good. I love that line. So, you know, those are kind of my. My big picture notes. I think there's so many wonderful things. And you'll see all of my notes, obviously here. But, yeah, I. I would just love to be more grounded in time and space. That's kind of my main note. And then thinking about how we're bearing up the sentence structures.
- [38:07]
B
Okay, great. Thanks, Carly. We're gonna hand it across to Sarah now again, you know, coming in terms of intentionality, because we're always saying everything you do must be done with intentionality. So I know, Sarah, you would have picked the swimming scene with great intentionality. Can you take us through that and perhaps we can brainstorm if there's another way to begin, including all of these things that you wanted that will factor in what CeCe was asking for. So take us through that.
- [38:34]
C
I understand what Charlie's saying about the punches, but I thought. And maybe it was just me, I thought I layered in punch, punch, punch. And then lyrical. And then punch, punch, punch, lyrical opening in the pool. I tried, as you always use, Bianca, your analogies of entering the house. I've entered this house I don't know how many times. I think this inner. This entering the house in this way is like I crawled to the dryer vent, something. You know, it was not originally intended, but the pool is, for Eve, a containment. And it's also. If I had started in a clinic, whatever. If I had started. Which chapter two has her in the car driving to clinic. Okay. It's just, you know, this has. We can actually get her anger, her interiority in the pool and understand all the pressures because she's relaxed for once. At 4am is the only time. And I believe the line is her mind. Red lines everywhere but the water. That's it. There's after a dark hour that belongs to Eve Miller. Too late for drunks like her mother and too early for saints like her dead father. You are only going to think about that in the water when her body is on autopilot. Because swimming, you know, she was a collegiate swimmer. So, you know, everything surfaces up. So it was intentional, Bianca. Like, beyond intentional. I think. I think it was body. I think it was my body saying, this is where it needs to go. And that's where embodied fiction also comes back, is we have to know how she moves.
- [40:27]
B
Totally get that. I'm trying to think, is there some kind of disruption that can happen in the water? Again, that reveals so much about her character? And again, it can include that embodied fiction, because people who work in these situations, when. When a crisis happens, they don't even think. Their bodies just react, whereas everybody else is, like, screaming in their heads and wanting to run away. So, I don't know, is there an animal that can fall into the pool? A critter or something? Like, I'm trying to think of something that can disrupt the scene. I don't know. Cece, what are you thinking? Is there a way we can keep it in the pool but have some kind of disruption that still fulfills what Sarah's trying to do here?
- [41:06]
E
I think that, first and foremost, if this is literary, you get to start slowly like this. I think that it's important to establish this so that you don't feel like we're pressuring you. And I want that to be something that you hold on to. As we do discuss potential other options. You always have the option to keep it. You know, that's fine if you do want to at least explore other options. One idea I had is that, again, I don't know the specific settings or this would fit, but it's really just.
- [41:31]
A
To give you an idea.
- [41:32]
E
The pool could be closed, right? And there could be a security guard telling her she can't go in the pool. And then she could be like, there's an emergency medicine. I'm a doctor. You have to let me get through. And we're going, oh, my God, there's an emergency. And the emergency is she needs to swim. But again, it would show how she acts in a situation where there is an external force disrupting her. And it would also surprise my brain because my brain would be like, emergency, emergency. There is a doctor. There is a doctor. And, you know, the emergency is a doctor needs care herself, the care that only the pool can bring her. And I'm sure that won't fit in the actual logistics and nuts and bolts of the story. But it's really just to illustrate the fact that you have right now a very soft external opening against a very tumultuous and interesting internal opening. And I personally don't think that's serving the propulsive nature of your story, especially because her interiority is focused on what happened. There's very little futurizing. If you added futurizing, maybe that would tweak it. You know, maybe that would. Would solve for it. There's. There's more than one ways to address this issue. I thought of the external because I thought to myself, this is a story with a lot of external plot, but, you know, you know your story best.
- [42:44]
B
Carly.
- [42:45]
D
I. I think a simple, just, like, losing track of time could honestly work. You know, like, she's swimming and then doesn't realize what time it is, and the friends are there and need to take her for their Thursday work day. Or if you want to start. And again, I don't know how this plays into the larger picture. If you want to start with a more romantic opening, like, how does she feel about this guy in her bed? Like, could he be swimming laps alongside her? Could he be the one to get her and be like, hey, babe, you gotta get out. Like, you know, your friends are here. I don't know, just, like, some way to see some more interaction in that sense. But I think a simple, like, losing track of time could work. Her friend come out back and they're like, what are you doing? And then she's like, oh, this is very hard character for me. I never lose track of time. And then we can internalize that. I don't know.
- [43:30]
E
I feel very strongly that disruption for disruption's sake doesn't work. You know, heel broken. Losing track of time. I don't think that would work. I think you need a disruption that shows power imbalance and power dynamics, or else it feels devicey and gimmicky, or else just let her swim. You know, that's my take.
- [43:48]
C
It could be as simple as. Because of everything we learn in the five pages. It could be as simple as she has a panic attack and has to swim earlier or something. Or realizing that she left, you know, the research fellow in her bed. I didn't need to do that. But, I mean, all this makes sense. But again, crisis, just for crisis makes me. I love you guys, but it makes me go. But it makes sense. But it still makes me cringe. So. But it could be as simple as just a panic attack that leads into the 4am it's not morning. It's not night either, because we've all had those days.
- [44:29]
B
Okay, so, Sarah, so in terms of then the future rising, if you don't want to put in a disruption. Cece's suggestion about her futurizing rather than her just thinking about the past and everything that's already happened.
- [44:41]
C
I mean, it's something to think about and move. Maybe she knows she's going to lose her job. It's just when, you know, that's what the whole DOS thing is, is that, you know, it's. Which is why it's in the query of, you know, she's being shoved out. So I don't know, things to think, but, you know. So I. And I also would like to comment very quickly that apparently the trying to put the reader in the body of her in movement fell flat. If I'm correct, in both of your feedbacks, Carly and CeCe, that it's the push, glide, push, pull, glide. Forget feet on the wall. It was too much. Too much embodied.
- [45:25]
D
It's.
- [45:25]
E
To me, it's not that it fell flat, because that would be a very unfair description of it.
- [45:30]
A
To me.
- [45:30]
E
It felt quiet. And if quiet is the intention, keep quiet. Something I'm always looking for when I speak to an author is how set they are in their vision. And you seem to me as someone who's very set in your vision, and I applaud you for that. Stay within your vision. It might not work for me. It might make me curious. But honestly, and I say this with love to myself, who cares? Your job is not to write for me. Your job is to write for your readership and, you know, your reader's taste. So, again, all we can do is, like, taste the food you make and share how it tastes for us, but there are other people who are going to taste it and we're going to have a different take on it.
- [46:08]
D
Yeah. For me, there wasn't anything wrong with it. It's more. I just really wanted to be more grounded in place. Like, I just felt very untethered. So that was, you know, if you want to oversimplify my note, it would just be. Yeah, can we just ground ourselves in place more?
- [46:20]
C
And it also is. Is the water is disorienting. So, I mean, there was. There was a reason behind that, but. Yeah, but. But moving up where she is makes sense. And it completely makes sense now.
- [46:33]
D
Like, oh, yeah, it's February.
- [46:35]
B
Sarah, you were saying there was an intentionality to the untetheredness of the swimming. You specifically wanted that.
- [46:42]
C
Well, there. I mean, that's just because everything else is contained. Language control, everything else is contained in medicine, that the uncontainment in the water, that it was specific in its intention. Its actual function on the page may have fallen a little left or Right of center, but it is intentional. And to answer one other quick question, to circle back, I have two questions. One, the friendship is supposed to show that they. They don't care because they. They deal with so much chaos in their work lives that the fact that Eve has a man in her bed. But it's Thursday. It's third Thursday. You knew you was coming, so move it along. And the other quick question is the Greek chorus with the music. I know that leads back to Carly's cinematic feel, but that is also the Greek chorus doing a lot where the character is not having to say it in 16 pages of interiority. Like, I feel bad, but you know, the songs talk about betrayal and gossip, and feeling lost is the easiest way to describe those two songs. So I just. If either one of you has a quick note on that.
- [48:09]
D
I skim by songs personally, just because there are so many songs in the world and I don't know every song. And so unless a song feels specific to you, the reader, I find them tricky. So they didn't add anything for me. That would be good answer, Cece.
- [48:24]
E
I liked them for all disagreement today, but that's good. I'm telling you.
- [48:29]
D
This. This.
- [48:30]
E
This is what. The more specific the art, the more different you have the opinions. And Sarah's work is very specific. Like Sarah, you hold on to your vision. Honestly, think thoughtfully over the things we're telling you, but hold on to your vision.
- [48:42]
C
I guess I'm not making popcorn because there was. Well, there is kind of a duel. So I guess I'm gonna go pop popcorn.
- [48:47]
E
It. It's. You're not.
- [48:49]
D
It's.
- [48:49]
E
Your job is not to make me want your pages. Your job is to write the pages that you. You want to write. And if. And if you know an agent, whether it's me or someone else or Carly, like if an agent wants it, an agent wants it.
- [48:59]
B
Okay, everyone, our time is up. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your work and making yourself vulnerable so that everybody else can learn from it. We really, really appreciate it. Next week we have authors on the show, and then in two weeks time, we're back to another Booksworth Hooks. Thanks so much, everyone.
- [49:16]
C
Thanks, guys. Have a great day. Bye.
- [49:18]
B
Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
- [49:56]
A
What's up everyone? This is Cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush pile? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.
- [50:44]
D
Years.
- [50:45]
A
Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd will have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for Writing Interiority and Psychological Acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded and for more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.