Podcast Summary: "Intentionality! Intentionality! Intentionality!"
Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guest: Dania Kukafka
Date: September 11, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, hosts Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, and CeCe Lyra welcome internationally bestselling author and literary agent Dania Kukafka (Girl in Snow, Notes on an Execution) for an in-depth exploration of intentional craft choices in writing. The conversation revolves around the structure, character POV, and themes that shaped Kukafka’s hit novel, Notes on an Execution, offering listeners a masterclass on narrative intentionality—why every element in a book should serve a deliberate purpose.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Origins and Vision for Notes on an Execution
- Dania recounts her fascination with true crime, noting her desire to interrogate why society is so consumed by serial killer narratives.
- The initial draft was told from the serial killer Ansel's point of view, but a pivotal remark from her agent—"What about the women?"—inspired her to refocus the story through the women affected by Ansel's actions.
"The inspiration for the novel, I think, was just the fact of consuming a lot in this genre... I really wanted to try something different and to interrogate the very genre we're looking at." (Dania, 04:34)
2. Evolving Intentionality Through Revision and Feedback
- Kukafka did not have concrete thematic intentions from the onset; instead, the book's vision crystallized through iterative drafting and editorial feedback.
- Bianca and Dania emphasize the value of first readers, beta readers, and external perspectives for clarifying authorial intent.
"I don't think I had the vision for the book until it was over, until I had written the whole thing." (Dania, 06:57)
3. POV Choices and Narrative Structure
- Ansel’s limited presence in the book (~10-15%) is narrated in second person, a choice that emerged after drafts in third person felt "flat." The use of "you" invites readers to inhabit the disturbing intimacy of Ansel’s psychology, as well as reflect his own self-mythologizing.
"What if the reader is the serial killer? Then the serial killer is you. You are a fingerprint, right? And it brings you so much closer." (Dania, 12:47)
- Multiple POVs—Lavender (mother), Hazel (sister-in-law), Saffy (detective)—were selected from extensive experimentation. Kukafka tried chapters from other women (prison guards, courtroom illustrators, etc.) before settling on the ones who exposed Ansel most clearly.
"I held quite a series of auditions, is how I'm looking at it now... when I found Hazel...that was the moment the whole book just unfurled." (Dania, 15:22)
4. Intentionally Excluding Certain Perspectives
- Hazel is selected over Jenny (Ansel’s wife) as a POV character because she is able to see through Ansel’s charm, highlighting the value of narrative distance and perspective.
"I needed someone who could see through him. Part of Hazel’s perspective is that she’s watching her sister get tugged under the waves by this guy..." (Dania, 17:15)
5. Crafting Structure, Pacing & Tension
- The novel’s ticking-clock framework (a 12-hour countdown to Ansel’s execution) is designed to maximize reader tension and balance present/past storylines.
- Action hinges on Ansel’s delusional belief that he might escape execution, a plotline crafted to avoid monotony and provide natural emotional spikes.
“He has to believe he's not going to [die] for at least half of those 12 hours. That was where the plot points really came in.” (Dania, 21:48)
6. Writing the Victims: Making the Lost Lives Matter
- Vignettes imagining what the murdered women might have become—mundane, lived realities—were added in later drafts to give weight and dignity to the victims.
"They didn’t have to become Pulitzer Prize winning chemists for their lives to have been worthy... Anything they chose to do with their lives meant they had that choice." (Bianca, 24:22)
7. Stylistic Choices: Dialogue and Voice
- Ansel’s POV omits quotation marks, distinguishing his interior monologue from the more conventional, dialogue-grounded voices of the women. This sense of dissociation mirrors Ansel’s psychological state.
“It was just a stylistic choice that I liked... He doesn’t have agency generally. He is just thinking.” (Dania, 25:20)
8. Existential Themes and Emotional Integrity
- All POV characters, not just Ansel, grapple with existential questions—meaning, guilt, what it means to be good—providing a thematic throughline.
"The women are essentially more human than Ansel is. They have self awareness in a way that Ansel really doesn’t about himself." (Dania, 26:24)
- Women, such as Lavender, contend with deep guilt despite being blameless—a commentary on how women internalize blame for men’s violence.
“How women blame themselves for the actions of men comes through in every perspective.” (Dania, 27:04)
9. Vignette Structure and Pacing
- The novel’s scenes act as short, tense vignettes; readers are kept slightly off-balance, never able to relax into scenes, which maintains suspense.
“When I felt myself getting bored in one space, that's when you have to move, right? Actually, you have to move before you get bored.” (Dania, 27:37)
10. Upending Reader Assumptions
- Deliberate withholding and misdirection keep readers guessing—answers to narrative questions are sometimes unknown even to the author until later drafts.
"Most of those moments came from me not knowing at the beginning and then actually answering them." (Dania, 28:49)
11. Language, Literary Style, and The Human Condition
- Bianca reads out passages showcasing the literary, philosophical style that sets Kukafka’s work apart.
“...finding the trigger point, the place where pain had landed and festered, the soft spot in every hard person that pushed them to violence.” (Bianca quoting Dania, 31:02)
- Dania admits she didn’t study philosophy, but that searching for deeper questions and connections is a natural outcome of writing.
"We do this because we want to be able to reach that state... That heightened state where we’re asking the deeper questions..." (Dania, 31:32)
12. The Agent’s Perspective
- Kukafka is a highly editorial agent, describing her joy in partnering with authors to realize a manuscript’s potential before it goes on sub.
“I love it. That’s why I do it, because I feel like I have the skill set to see what a book can be before it’s actually that book and partner with that person to help them make it that version..." (Dania, 32:27)
- She is currently open to queries, specifically seeking literary fiction with a genre edge, mysteries/thrillers from marginalized perspectives, and works that experiment with form and voice.
“I like to say literary fiction that is wearing some kind of genre sunglasses... particularly looking for new kinds of mysteries and thrillers, specifically from writers on the margins.” (Dania, 33:23)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Second Person Narration:
“What if the reader is the serial killer? Then the serial killer is you. You are a fingerprint, right? And it brings you so much closer.” (Dania, 12:47) -
On Choosing the Right POVs:
“I needed someone who could see through him. I needed someone who could see him much more clearly and who wasn’t being fooled by him.” (Dania, 17:15) -
On Why the Victims Matter:
“They didn’t have to become Pulitzer Prize winning chemists for their lives to have been worthy... Anything they chose to do with their lives meant they had that choice.” (Bianca, 24:22) -
On the Collaborative Agent/Author Relationship:
“That’s the part I really love the most, actually, is seeing something, seeing its potential, working with the author to make it the best it can be, and then the both of us bringing it out into the world and saying, what do you guys think?” (Dania, 32:27)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 04:34 – Dania describes the inspiration behind Notes on an Execution and true crime fascination
- 06:57 – Vision emerging through feedback and revision
- 10:26 – The POV and second person narration choices
- 15:22 – Deciding which women’s perspectives to include
- 17:15 – Why the story isn’t told from Ansel’s wife’s perspective
- 18:56 – Structural framework and managing tension
- 21:48 – Maintaining tension and plot stakes in the present-day thread
- 23:41 – Writing the imagined lives of the victims
- 25:20 – Stylistic choices: quotation marks
- 26:24 – Existential bias and the “golden thread” of theme
- 27:37 – The role of vignettes in pacing and tension
- 28:49 – Keeping readers in the dark; misdirection without manipulation
- 31:02/31:32 – Exquisite line examples and literary intent
- 32:27 – Dania’s editorial approach as a literary agent
- 33:23 – Current manuscript wish list and open calls for queries
Tone & Voice
The conversation is warm, humorous, candid, and loaded with practical, honest advice. Both guest and hosts are open about their processes, struggles, and moments of insight, modeling the creative and revisionary journey for emerging writers.
Final Thoughts
For writers and readers alike, this episode offers an extraordinary behind-the-scenes look at how a complex literary novel takes shape. Kukafka’s willingness to experiment, to be surprised by her own work, and to keep reader experience in focus—along with her editorial prowess—offers invaluable lessons for anyone seeking to write with intention.