← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
It's a Vibe: Plot Points & Emotional Vibes in Storytelling
00:41:36
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece plus special guest Lauren Spieller
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- [00:00]
Cece Lira
Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.
- [01:19]
Bianca Murray
Would you like to do some good in the world while also standing in line to win amazing literary prizes? Of course you would. I'm hosting a fundraiser for a cause that's close to my heart, which is Literacy in South Africa. The Masana Library Project aims to make the future of South African learners brighter by improving their education and supplying a South African high school with the kind of basic resources that we take for granted in North America. Of course, there are a host of amazing literary prizes up for grabs if you donate to this wonderful cause. They include developmental edits, coaching packages, manuscript critiques, and so much more. To learn more about the cause as well as the prizes and our brilliant and generous sponsors, head to Biancamarae.com and go to the fundraiser tab. Entries close at 8am Eastern Time on 10 April, after which the lucky winners will be announced. Hi there and welcome to our show the no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hooks. And today we have a special guest joining us, Carly, will you please introduce her?
- [02:45]
Carly Waters
Absolutely. So we have a very special guest and this person. I feel like I'm on Smartless podcast now. Where it's like, you know, you have to reveal who the special guest is if you guys are smart listeners. But I won't make this person hide themselves on camera because everybody on YouTube is already seeing who our special person is. Our person is an agent, Lauren Spieler, an incredibly talented literary agent over at Folio and Folio Junior. Lauren was actually. I went back through my emails to figure out when this was. Lauren was actually an intern of mine at P.S. literary way back when it was 2013, so very long time ago. And just incredibly thrilled to see all of Lauren's success in the industry. So we're so glad to have Lauren on because Lauren is also an expert in something that we are not on this show, which is romantasy and romance, fantasy, science fiction, actual fantasy, all of those things that we don't specialize in the show. So we are so thrilled we could have Lauren back on the show. We've been trying to plan this for a while now, so we're so thrilled. So Lauren, welcome to our show.
- [03:45]
Lauren Spieler
Thank you so much for having me. I've been really looking forward to it.
- [03:49]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Okay, so as per usual, we're going to dive straight in. Carly is going to read us the first query letter.
- [03:56]
Carly Waters
Dear tsnat YA Team, thank you for all you do for emerging authors. I have learned an immense amount from your show. While I know YA fantasy isn't something Carly or Cece usually represent, I would be honored to have your feedback on my query letter and first five pages below. I'm excited to send you a book of 93,000 words, my YA fantasy debut. It will appeal to fans of the dangerous hidden magic and clandestine romance in Heartless Hunter by Kristin Sicarelli and Belladonna by Adeline Grace and the inescapable pull of prophecy. As in this Woven Kingdom by Tereje Mafi. 18 year old Vela is a little spoiled and a lot sheltered and always one spark away from burning down her world with her illegal ability to wield fire. She chafes against the bounds of a rigid society even as she struggles to keep her power hidden from herself and being thrown in prison or worse in a nation where the only magic allowed is that of a book of great power foretold by prophecy generations before. But her facade shatters when her village is attacked and Vella is kidnapped or perhaps rescued by a band of aeronautical pirates. For reasons he refuses to divulge, the enigmatic young captain of the Aeronauts agrees to help Vella and her best friend Paget, as they embark on a voyage to rejoin the safety of Vela's well connected family. On her journey, Vella tastes true freedom, exploring both her own magic and a blossoming romance with Paget. But Vela's future hangs in the balance as the time set by the prophecy runs out and she learns that she must uncover the truth of the book or risk being caught in the net of a man who will stop at nothing to ensure its power is his alone. And when her trust is betrayed and her secrets revealed, Vel is forced to choose between the safety of her gilded cage or letting her truth burn as brightly, if as destructively, as a flame. I live in Washington D.C. where I carve out time to write between my roles as a museum fundraiser, parent to a high spirited toddler and slightly less opinionated infant, and caretaker of an extremely peculiar black cat. I'm a recovering theater nerd and big fan of the New York Times Game section. My professional writing has been featured in multiple Smithsonian and Historical Society outlets. Thank you for taking the time to consider A Book of Smoke. All my best, Ali Swisslocki.
- [06:07]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much. Kali, can you just give us an indication there of word count before we hand it across to Lauren?
- [06:14]
Carly Waters
All right, this one clocked in at 422 words so we're gonna hand it over to our esteemed guest Lauren now to give the analysis.
- [06:21]
Lauren Spieler
So I want to start by saying I am also dedicated to the New York Times Game section. It is what I do every single morning as I wake up with coffee. I like slowly bring my brain online by playing wordle and all of them really. So I enjoyed reading this and I do work on a lot of fantasy, on a lot of romantasy and I felt like this query had some excellent bones. We character, we see the conflicts, we see a hint of romance. But I can say that having read probably, I don't know, thousands at this point of fantasy queries, what stood out to me here is that there's not enough specificity. I wanted more that'll make it clear how your book is different from others. Because if you really boil this query down to its bones, Girl with secret power is kidnapped or taken away from her family and has to make a choice if she goes back or if she develops that power that could describe hundreds of books, maybe more. So what I really wanted to see here was more that makes your book unique. And I'm sure there is a lot that makes your book unique. It's just not coming through in the query to me. So I want more about this Girl, will you tell us that? You know, she's. I think the words used are something like spoiled and sheltered. I kind of wanted like, in what way? Like, is there a little more texture you could give me that tells me what that world is like? Or later on we, we find out that there's this book of shadow. Book of Shadows, I think, or Book of Magic. What is that about? What's. What is the book like? What is the world like? So I just wanted a little. What's her fire magic like? Is she able to, you know, like her body is wreathed in fire or is she able to shoot fireballs or is she able to make things set on fire? Is it a telekinetic power? Is it something that she has to bleed to do? Is it's not going to blood magic? Like there's so many things that we don't know. And obviously a query is short. I imagine you guys talk about this like a query letter can't be pages and pages, right? It has to be like 350 words. I usually think it's a sweet spot, but maybe a little longer. So I know there's not a ton of room to add detail, but I do think some well placed descriptions, adjectives, just a little more meat on the bone would help this stand out to me and let me know if it's something that's going to stand out on the shelf because ultimately that's really what an agent is looking for. Does this book feel like it has good editorial bones and is it going to be something that I can sell? But again, I do think that the bones, the meat is there. I would just like more specifics. There were also some places where I found myself either a little confused or unsure or surprised. For instance, I was like, oh, the captain isn't the love interest, it's Paget. That's great, honestly, because so often the person that comes and saves or steals the girl is the romance. And we get like an enemies to lovers, but here we're actually getting a friends to lovers. And I think you could probably lean on that a little more. I actually kind of wonder if the captain even needs to be capitalized, if we need to put him so front and center. Because it's almost setting up a relationship that doesn't seem as important to me. I mean, I'm sure in the book there's a reason the captain's coming through, but to me, I'd love to see the romance pushed a little bit forward. And I'd also love to know more about the Villain because we're told near the end that there's a bad guy, but we don't know anything about him. So I think with this query, it's about looking at the pieces that you need and what you're prioritizing, and also looking for ways to bring the character's personality and the details of the world forward. So that I really get a sense just from these few paragraphs of what your book is going to be like when I read it and how it's going to stand out.
- [10:12]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. Lauren, just a question. If there is meant to be a love triangle with the captain, then that needs to be made more obvious, right? That needs to be centered more.
- [10:21]
Lauren Spieler
Yeah. And I don't even know if that's the case. You might be right, but I don't. I don't know. I think if that's what's happening, then definitely we need a juicy line at the end is like torn between two men and two. Because the. I think the beauty of the love triangle is that really what it. It's not about which guy, it' about which path the main character is following. Right. Like which guy she chooses speaks to the life she wants to have. So if that's the case here, then yeah, we definitely need to see that. But I think just the fact that we're not sure is a problem. Right. A fixable problem. But right now I feel like there's just a lot to get clarity on.
- [10:56]
Carly Waters
Lauren, I have a question for you. So they position this as ya and then our character is 18. Can you speak a little bit about what constitutes ya in a fantasy world or in a romantasy world? Because we get this all the time where we talk about what is new adult, what is ya. And in fantasy and romanticity, I think it might be different. So can you speak to that?
- [11:14]
Lauren Spieler
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like a constantly shifting goalpost. Which is probably why there's not a firm answer because otherwise you would obviously have it. Right. So I think 18. When I hear teen, I'm still like, okay, probably going to be ya. Though of course there are books that are adult books that have child characters, teen characters, older characters. So really I think it comes down to audience, who is this for? If this has a lot of spice in it, for instance, sex scenes, open door sex, I should say, then it's probably for an older audience. But then there's the question of is an older audience going to want to read about an 18 year old? Should you consider aging your book up? Carly, you also I think kind of alluded to the fact that this is a fantasy world. So it's not like she's going to math class. Right. So what a teenager is in this world might be very different than what a teenager is in ours. So I think that's the other reason that it really matters what your audience. Audience. What audience you have in mind. This premise could go either way. There's nothing that says this couldn't be adult or couldn't be ya. It's a girl with magic. Right? Like, it could go either way. So it's really going to come down to what the content is. And by that I mean the sex scenes, if there are any. How the romance is handled, I should say, is it handled in an age, like an age appropriate way for a teen reader, an underage reader, or is it meant to be more titillating? Whatever. And it's really. For an older reader. They say it's YA though, right?
- [12:37]
Carly Waters
Yeah, yeah, no, they say it's ya. And so when you are advising a client or you know, somebody who comes to you through the slush pile, would you kind of read the book? And then do you ever suggest to people like, oh, we need to age this person down, or we need to age this person up, or we need to kind of reposition. Do you frequently have those conversations?
- [12:53]
Lauren Spieler
I mean, with clients it's occasionally. It has to happen. Most of them already are sort of focused on audience. And so I don't find as often that I'm like, oh, this is a different category than you thought. But I will occasionally write back to querying writers and say it. And sometimes when I'm talking to clients about projects that are in development, we'll talk about, should I do this for ya? Should I do this for adult? And I think it's good to have those conversations before the book is written or at least before all of it is written, because it really. Again, I mean, to me, I think writing is about audience. Every piece of writing you do, whether you're sending a letter, writing an obituary, you're writing a book, like audience matters. And so I think having that audience in mind from the beginning is really important. That being said, the line between YA and adult is really blurry, especially with this new adult category that's sort of reemerging right now. So I don't think it's like, oh God, if you wrote it ya, and it's adult, you're up, you're in a bad shape. I was gonna say a ruder version of that, but I Do think it's a good idea to keep those questions in mind early?
- [13:56]
Carly Waters
Thank you, Lauren.
- [13:57]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Lauren. Thank you. Carly, was there anything you wanted to add to that in terms of insights?
- [14:02]
Carly Waters
Not particularly. The only thing I thought was the reason that Yovella and the Captain and Paget was capitalized because they were bringing that over from like synopsis style. So that's kind of why I thought those might be capitalized. So I would probably just say, you know, you don't need to do those names in all caps.
- [14:18]
Lauren Spieler
And maybe there's a detail that can clarify. I mean, I don't know anything about this captain, but maybe there's a detail that we can hint at. Like this isn't the love interest. Like maybe it's like the elderly captain or the, you know, or maybe bring in Paget sooner we're going to move to the pages. But like the crush is clear from the very beginning in the pages, which is great. I think there's a way to do that in the query as well.
- [14:39]
Carly Waters
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And I love that this person called it my Y fantasy debut because debut was such an electric word. And I really like that this person used the word debut in their query letter. I thought that was well done, but that's all my notes.
- [14:51]
Bianca Murray
Okay. Cece, any thoughts?
- [14:53]
Cece Lira
I had one thought that confused me. So we're saying that she is potentially rescued by this man. However, then we get a line that reads, they embark on a voyage to rejoin the safety of her well connected family. Like that makes no sense. And I'm sure it makes sense in the story, but it doesn't make sense in the query letter. I get that she's at risk, right? She has to hide her power. She might be thrown in prison or worse. But then we hear she's kidnapped or perhaps rescued, and, well, he rescues her by returning her to her original status quo. Like that doesn't add up. So I would clarify that because that felt a little confusing to me. I think the premise is really cool. I do think that, like, to Lauren's excellent point, you're doing plot vibes, you're not doing plot points. You know, you're saying way too many things that don't actually tell me anything. You're saying things like secrets revealed, trust betrayed without telling me what the secrets or the trust is. And if that's the spoiler, it's happening earlier too. I do think that like future hangs in the balance. What does this prophecy have to do with anything? Because we do hear about the prophecy before Hearing that the time is running out. But I didn't think the prophecy was connected to her. I was just very confused by the plot points. And I think that it's because you have a really big world, and it's really hard to write a query letter with so many plot points, which we empathize with. But that's the job. So I think you should rework the plot points.
- [16:21]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. Okay, Carly, can you please summarize the pages for us?
- [16:26]
Carly Waters
All right, so we start with our main character, Bella. She should have been asleep, but the town has an alarm going off, some sort of bells in the square. So she was not asleep at all. She's also really worried. She's like, okay, did this alarm mean somebody is coming for me? She's really scared. Her cat's kind of also up in arms a little bit, and then she hears some noises, and it's her friend, friend Paget, who is kind of coming up through the trellis into her bedroom so that they can talk. They haven't seen each other in a while. He got sent away on a job, so they're kind of, like, reconnecting. He's checking on her to make sure that she's okay. They kind of talk about some of the things that they're scared about and worried about. They talk about some family connections and, you know, what's going on with each other's families. But we mostly get the vibe that Bella has this huge crush on Paget, and we don't fully understand, you know, necessarily if he feels the same or what their kind of relationship is like. But we know there's a huge crush in romantic interest from Bella's side, and that's where we end.
- [17:24]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Lauren, we're handing it across to you to tell us what you thought of the opening pages.
- [17:30]
Lauren Spieler
I think that, again, there's a lot to work with, but there is also some room for improvement. I think it starts out a little thin, and it gets stronger. My critique, I would say, with the beginning is that it kind of feels like we have, like, a start and then a stop and a start again. She hears the bell, but then she hears the voice. But then we talk about the bell. I was like, well, so what's waking her up? Like, the bell or the fact that there's someone speaking in her bedroom? Also, I don't really know what the bell is about in the beginning, and so it doesn't pack much of a punch. I learn that it's dangerous, that the bell is a scary thing for World building reasons. It means something. Someone is in trouble somewhere. And is it. Is it her? But I felt like we rushed the very beginning. And then we get to Paget and them talking, and then the pacing kind of slows a little bit too much. We get too much talking, too much backstory. So I feel like the elements in these pages are there, but they can be rebalanced. I really wanted to see the bell wake her up, for her to be afraid in her bed. Are they coming for me? What's happening outside? It's this excellent opportunity to give us a hint of the world. What is the bell? What is at stake for her? And then, while she's already scared, she hears a movement in her bedroom and someone coming up the trellis. And now she's terrified because it's actually. They're coming for her. And then. Oof. Ow. Because it's Paget stumbling into her bedroom. And then we get to. Huh, Relax. And then the romance. So we get the. We get the world. We get the stakes set up, we get a moment with her, and then we get the love interest introduced to us. And then we can get even more of that detail because they start talking, and there's a lot in that. I mean, I thought once he comes on the scene, the tension in the existing pages, the tension really goes up because we get the sexual tension. But I think we can get plot tension first, and it'll make that romance feel even more interesting because we'll understand it in the context of their world.
- [19:33]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Lauren. Thank you so much, Cece. I'm going to hand it across to you now.
- [19:37]
Cece Lira
So here's my note just to add to this, because I agree with everything Lauren said. When they're talking, there's a line that reads, your family has suffered immensely.
- [19:47]
Lauren Spieler
So this is.
- [19:47]
Cece Lira
This is the protagonist talking to Paget. Your family has suffered immensely ever since your pa. And then we get three, like, she paused, wanting to be sure her words came out right. You are the bravest person I know. You must. Must think me ridiculous to be so afraid. I really like that you didn't tell us what happened to pa. That's a curiosity seat. That's smart. It felt really natural in dialogue. Right. That was really, really well done. And then he responds, it's easier to be brave when the worst has already happened. Then there's nothing left to fear. Again, great dialogue.
- [20:22]
Bianca Murray
Right?
- [20:22]
Cece Lira
Like, all the applause. But this is an opportunity for deep interiority, so you should add a little bit, like, two lines, maybe Max. Right. Like, maybe one of her Thinking about how. So we get that she thinks he's brave, but what about what she imagines she'd feel in his situation? We know from the query letter that she sheltered. We know from the query letter that she has reasons to potentially be afraid if the worst happened, but that nothing actually bad has happened to her yet. So what is she projecting? What is she imagining? What is she assuming she'd feel like? Just give us that deep interiority, because this is the stuff that really makes the reader's brain imprint with a protagonist. Different people would react differently to this line, to the line, there's nothing left to fear, you know, and someone who is sheltered, someone who's young, someone who has a crush on this guy would think very specific thoughts. And I think that this is like a missed opportunity, and I really wanted to see you go deeper, and I encourage you to do so.
- [21:26]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, any last thoughts from you?
- [21:30]
Carly Waters
No, I agree with everything. The only thing I wanted to just emphasize was it did feel very like, stop, start, stop, start. You know, one example I have is on the opening pages on the third line was, you know, Vela startled at the noise, heart pounding, heart pounding and skin on fire. And then when Paget comes into the room, he said, you know, oh no, did I startle you? And it was like, well, we know that she was startled. So we're like repeating this idea of startling. And that's just an example of like, okay, she's been startled. We know we don't need him to then say, did I startle you? So that's just one example. But yes, I agree with everything that's been said.
- [22:05]
Bianca Murray
Wonderful. Thank you so much to all of you for those awesome insights. Before we go to our second query, let's hear from our sponsor.
- [22:13]
Carly Waters
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- [24:05]
Bianca Murray
Okay. Right, let's go into our second query. Cece, will you please read that for us?
- [24:10]
Cece Lira
Absolutely. Dear Ms. Lira, because of your interest in morally ambiguous characters and high concept novels, I am eager to present my high concept enemies to adult Dark Romantasy. I see death 100,000 words. House of the Dragon meets Troy with Achilles reimagined as a woman and Briseis as a man. In a fresh spin on Romeo and Juliet, it is perfect for fans of the romantic tension in Thea Gwazan's the Hurricane wars, the innovative retelling of a familiar myth like Danielle L. Jensen's a fate inked in blood and the gender bent twist in Jasmine Ma's Blood of Hercules, Achilles can predict her own death seconds, weeks, months and years in advance, making her undefeated in battle and the greatest warrior of all time. Since the war began between the Dragon Houses of the east and west, her dragon bestowed ability has kept her untouchable. All she wants is to bring glory and honor to her house, to immortalize her name and her dragons, and to avenge her parents. When the Dragon Houses of the west sends their crown prince onto the battlefield, Achilles defeats him and she flaunts his corpse over enemy armies. Achilles is pursued by the crown prince's bastard brother, Prince Rhysiz, who knocks her off her dragon. Injured, she discards her signature armor and helmet, stealing another off a dead foot soldier before they capture her. Achilles is given as a war prize to Prince Rhesus, who does not recognize her. Achilles must bide her time and keep her identity hidden in order to survive. She makes plans to kill the prince and, if she can, the new crown princess in order to win the war, avenge her parents and bring glory to her house. Eventually, Achilles and Rice's mutual hatred turns into something far more dangerous as they grow closer while the war rages on between their families. Achilles begins to question the war, her own hand in it, and soon they must both decide between revenge, family, victory, survival, or love. I was born in northern Sweden to Sami and Tornadalian family. My short fiction story On My Diaspora was published by Europeana in 2024. I am currently in my last semester of a BFA in Comparative Literature and Creative Writing living in Stockholm. This is a standalone with serious potential. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Angelina Fords thank you.
- [26:51]
Bianca Murray
Cece what was the word count there?
- [26:54]
Cece Lira
The writer was very lovely and told us 382 words.
- [26:58]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Thank you so much. Okay, we now handing it across to.
- [27:02]
Lauren Spieler
Lauren it's funny, I feel like I almost have the opposite feedback on this query and these pages than I did on the last one. This one is all plot points. It's not enough vibes. This almost read like a synopsis rather or a summary rather than a pitch. I think they go into a little too much detail. This book is pitched as a romantasy, but we see almost none of that. I do think the word romantasy without reading the book. It's hard to know, but I would say a romantasy to me implies that the romance is integral to the fantasy, to the plot, and that we're gonna see romance throughout. It is Dr. The plot. Whereas a romantic fantasy might be a fantasy that has a romance as a B plot. So this query is sort of walking that line. The comps, the way the story is set up suggests romantasy. It's we have the Hurricane wars as a comp. We have Romeo and Juliet as a comp. But the query, the actual pitch itself has so much setup and so little dedicated to the actual relationship that I found myself being like, is this just like a romance within, like a more traditional fantasy? So that's really a question for the author, but I do Think that regardless of the answer, this book is spending too much time on the setup and not enough time on what happens once the characters get together. One of the places that I see that in particular is how we explain how Achilles comes to be with the prince. We get all of these details about, you know, kills one prince, shows the body knocked off the dragon, takes the helmet. That could all have been condensed into really one line. And I actually included what an example of that line could be if you guys wanted me to read it. But like, I really think it could. It could be something as simple as, you know, she goes into battle and kills a prince, but is taken prisoner and has to disguise herself as, as a soldier in order not to be discovered. You know, something quick that just gets us to the point, which is that now she's in enemy hands and she's been given as a gift. I think if we can do that kind of work throughout the query, if we can kind of condense, get to the point a little bit more, then more time can be spent on the meat of the book, which, taking her at her word, is a romantasy. And honestly, that's the part that made it more interesting to me. I'm really curious to see how you are combining a gender swapped Achilles with, with Romeo and Juliet. I was a little bit like, is this too many comps? But the idea of having these like star crossed lovers, enemies that fall for each other, but also the gender swapped Achilles, I mean, that's really cool, but I want to see more of the romance. That being said, once we get to the end, we do get some vibes that I actually felt were pretty earned because you'd given us a lot of detail. But, but still, like, I, I do think there's maybe a little too much detail on the setup and not quite enough on the meat of the book and how these characters are going to fall in love with one another and what that's going to look like.
- [30:08]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Lauren. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.
- [30:13]
Cece Lira
Okay, so I have two minor notes and then one big picture note. You should cut the clause that has seconds, weeks, months and years in advance. That's just detail we don't need to know in the query letter. Very important to know in the story and we appreciate that, but we just don't need it in the query letter. Extra words cut. It'll give you more time to focus on the stuff that you need to focus on. You're also repeating, bring glory and honor to her house. Immortalize her name and her Dragons and avenge her parents twice. You do not need this twice. To that point of the motivation, I kind of wanted the motivation to be a little bit more specific. Like, I don't know what bring glory means. I don't know what avenge her parents means. I don't know what immortalize her name means. And it makes me worried that the motivation isn't compelling enough. Nine times out of ten when I see this, it's not that the motivation in the story isn't working. It's just translating that into a query letter, which, again, as we say all the time, and we say this because it's true, it's really hard to do. And then I guess my bigger picture note about the story is we are introduced to the fact that she has this ability to predict her own death. Very interesting, but, like, it doesn't come into play in the story, in the plot. Right. Like, I love that she had to disguise as a foot soldier, and because she was wearing a different helmet, she's captured. I agree with Lauren that you don't need to specify that in the query letter. Just say she's captured and they don't know who she is. But I love that. That's a great detail, because hiding one person's identity can make for a really interesting pov. And I also think it's interesting that she starts to, like, question her own role in the war and fall in love with this guy who's, like, an enemy. Like, all these things are interesting, but where does her power affect the plot later? You know, like, that's not there, and I think it needs to be there or else.
- [32:00]
Lauren Spieler
Or else you're.
- [32:01]
Cece Lira
You're doing something which is like, teasing us with this ability. And the ability, it doesn't come into play. And I'm like, well, I wanted the ability to come into play because I'm curious about the ability now. And that makes your world extra cool and extra unique. So I think that that should be specified in some way. And because I'm saying you could cut more things. Things, you'll have extra words to do that.
- [32:19]
Lauren Spieler
I talk about this with my clients a lot, actually. Like, you need to deliver on the promise of the premise. I say it to them. I should, like, tattoo it on my forehead. But I think CeCe is exactly right. Like, we're told that she has this ability to predict her death, and we're told that there's a romance and she has to make choices. So to me, it's like, well, where's the moment where she finds out that the man she's in love with is going to kill her. Or like, if she's with him, she will die. Or if she doesn't save him, she will die. Or like, whatever it is. But like, that, that piece has to come back. And, and honestly, I don't say this very often, but like, that, I feel like that's not even. In my opinion. That is a fact. Like, it must matter in this book if you were going to deliver on your own premise.
- [33:02]
Cece Lira
Okay, now I want to know. Now I want to know what all of us should have tattooed on our foreheads. The line we're always saying, because I want my tattoo to be cool. So if you're listening to this, tell us on social media what you think. Bianca. Carly. And my line should be.
- [33:17]
Lauren Spieler
I thought you were saying that you want your tattoo to just say cool. It's too late. That's yours. Okay, go back, drop us a line.
- [33:29]
Bianca Murray
In our socials under this episode, go to Instagram and tell us what you think. That would be really interesting. Okay. Carly, anything you have to add to that?
- [33:37]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I just want to throw to Lauren for a couple questions. So my first question for you is, so this is positioned. I mean, it's positioned as a lot of things. High concept, enemies to lover, adult, dark romantasy. But my specific question is, how would you categorize something as a dark romantasy? What does dark mean in the context of romance and romantasy?
- [33:55]
Lauren Spieler
It's a good question. And it's not really something that's coming through in the query. Like, I don't know what they mean me. Dark romance. Romance often refers to maybe like gray morality or a slightly less, I don't know, fit for. You don't want to talk about it in front of your parents. Like, you know, maybe that's a mafia romance. And like, he. He kills people for a living, but he would never hurt me. Like, we see that kind of story as labeled dark romance. To me, it does not mean people die in this story because it's fantasy. People are dropping like flies all the time. So I think that that's a. That's a good question. And it's. I kind of want to put it to the author, like, what does it mean to you? And make sure it's what it's the same as it means to an agent. It might, given that there are so many positioning phrases, it might make sense just to cut it. Unless there is something here that we don't know about.
- [34:45]
Carly Waters
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I'M like, and I don't know these comps very well. So I didn't know if through the comps they were kind of explaining, oh, these are also kind of dark comps. But I was kind of thinking, because it's a lot of, like, taglines, as I said, high concept, enemies to lovers, adult dark romance. But I agree with you. When I see dark, to me it means something that is morally gray. I agree with you.
- [35:04]
Lauren Spieler
Yeah. And I wonder if they're trying to sort of. What they're trying to get at is the idea that this isn't like a. A romance. Like, it's got some. It's got some heavier themes. It's got some. There is a lot of death. Like, maybe it is a little more upmarket. It's. It's not going to necessarily appeal to readers of some of our more like huge titles that are a little more lighthearte. Maybe that's what they're trying to get at. But if that's the case, dark is not the word. I would probably go with something more like layered, a layered romantasy. If I could make one more, like, nitpicky comment. But that I do think is important. Carly made the right point or a good point here. There's a lot of positioning here, and for me, it's. It's too much. In particular, I think there's just too many comps. House of Dragon meets Troy, Achilles, Romeo and Juliet, Hurricane Wars, A Fate Bladder Hercules. Like, I would cut some. I think already saying, like, Achilles meets Romeo and Juliet is super interesting. And I like that you're telling us some books. I wouldn't do multiple TV movies. I would probably do something like House of the Dragon meets the Hurricane wars or for fans of House of the Dragon and the Hurricane wars, like some combination of things. But reel it in because right now there's so much that it goes all. It's so specific that it goes back around to being like, general because there's just too much.
- [36:27]
Carly Waters
Yeah.
- [36:27]
Lauren Spieler
You also can pull some of those down lower in the query. I think it's so front, like, heavily front loaded.
- [36:33]
Carly Waters
Yeah, Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, my last question for you is, what do you think of this title? I See Death. What do you think?
- [36:38]
Lauren Spieler
Not for me. Not for me. It's. I mean, it gets to the point. But like, but if this is a romantasy, like, it's not in line with like, like genre conventions. I mean, look at the, at the ones we have here. A Fate, Inked In, Blood, the Hurricane Wars, Blood of Hercules. Those have, like, a little more of a lyrical feeling to them. A little more of a magic feeling. I see death sounds like I see dead people. Like, it sounds like a very different kind of thing. I would just take a look at books in your category and try to come up with something more in line. And especially if you have an Achilles story, there are so many opportunities for, like. Like, a more lyrical, compelling title that feels a little more steeped in that myth, in that story.
- [37:20]
Carly Waters
I agree. All right. I, like, prodded Lauren to, like, answer in the way that I would have answered, but thank you for answering my question. Yeah. So I see death, definitely. That's the. That is dark, right? So if you're trying to get out. This is dark. It's dark. I can't picture the COVID for this. Like, if I. If. If I saw a cover that said, like, I see death, like, how do you pair Achilles on a cover again? A female Achilles, I should say. I love the female Achilles. I'm not on the road saying that. I love that. That. But I don't know, I just. It's too on the nose. It's not lyrical. Yeah, those are. Those are my notes.
- [37:50]
Lauren Spieler
Oh. Something just occurred to me, and I think it's actually what Cece was getting at, but said, like, maybe a different way. What's the Achilles heel? Like, if you're gonna say Achilles, I need to know what the heel is. And that's like, the whole. I assume that's the I see dead people part of it, like. But that, I think, is actually a super important thing that's missing from this query at the end is like, you gotta earn that Achilles concept. And everybody that hears Achilles, even if you don't know anything about Achilles, is like, the heel. So I think I just want to, like, chime in. I would really like that to be a bigger part of the end, because that's the but then moment in the query that's missing.
- [38:26]
Bianca Murray
Okay, thank you. Right, Cece, I'm going to ask you to please summarize the pages. After that, we might only just have time to hear from Lauren. We'll see how we go.
- [38:35]
Cece Lira
Okay, so the protagonist is passing through the courtyard. Those around her are saluting to her when she has a vision of her death. So it's very clear to us that she has these visions all the time. The vision involves her being poisoned by a king. One of the servants asks, is that her? And someone else, you know, warns them to be quiet if they wish to live. And we learn through interiority that she likes this. She likes the fear she instills in others. She continues walking towards the dragon. Midas appears, approaches her, and they talk. There's dialogue between them. She shares how the king wants to get rid of her, but she's totally in control. She has a plan, and everything's gonna work out.
- [39:14]
Lauren Spieler
So thank you.
- [39:16]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Lauren, what are your thoughts?
- [39:19]
Lauren Spieler
It's, again, it's almost the opposite of the last one. Like, I want more vibes. There's just a lot of plot here. And the thing that really jumped out at me is, like, Achilles is a cool character. She's a total boss. She has no fear. She's in charge of all these men. She likes that they're afraid of her. And I kind of almost hate to give this note, but, like, I think we need a little more vulnerability because you're giving us a person who cannot die because of their ability to see death. And as a result, there's no tension. I'm not worried about her. I'm not worried about any of this. But if I'm not worried, if I'm not curious, then I'm not going to keep reading. So I like that she is strong. It could be interesting to maybe have the strength she projects, not be mirrored on the inside. It doesn't mean that she has to be like, oh, God, there's so much pressure on me. Like, she doesn't have to be insecure, but there has to be something she is worried about. Is it a romance? Is it someone in her life who is sick and dying? Does she? Is she 100% sure that her visions will never fail? Is it that her visions aren't always easy to parse? Like, maybe it's a little more of a puzzle. But I do think we need something in these pages that bring a little bit of vulnerability, a little bit of interiority forward that sows a tiny bit of doubt and curiosity. Because right now, I was a little bit like, I feel like we're going through the motions and because I don't care about her, I don't care about this. That being said, on a line level, very well written. I just think you need to add that character layer in.
- [40:51]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Lauren. Kali, have you got anything to add there?
- [40:54]
Carly Waters
You know, as I was reading this, so I will say, first of all, I actually really liked the first line. I think, like, when we're doing the Achilles thing, like, I think this works. So she says, I always know how I die. I've seen my death thousands of times. This one was no different. I really liked that. So I think that's keeper. All of this to say. I actually thought as I was reading that this was very prologue. Ish. I felt like this was a prologue just the way that, I don't know, it was kind of going back into the vision. I really would have liked that we had stayed in the scene because when we go into the vision multiple times, she's kind of like going in and out of the vision. To me, it was kind of explaining as if a prologue would. This fact that she has visions. And I really would have liked to stay in scene more. So to me, I think this is a sneaky prologue. I will be on record saying this is a sneaky prologue, or at least half of this is a sneaky prologue.
- [41:48]
Lauren Spieler
I. I totally hear that. I think I'd be a little sad to lose the vision entirely because that's where we get the magic in the scene. And it. It puts it in a fantasy space and not just like a historical retelling, but going in and out of it might be too much. And perhaps it shouldn't happen as quickly. Like maybe we get more time in the now. I also kind of wanted the vision to come in at a less opportune time time, like nobody notices. She says it's just like a split second. But, like, what if something does happen? What if she trips and then now she has. Maybe that is the vulnerability we get to see is like she doesn't control when the visions happen. So I'm with Carly that I do think going in and out of it might not be working, but I think perhaps one solution could be saving it a little bit later and then using it more. Use that plot point to create conflict.
- [42:37]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Lauren. Thank you. Cece, anything that you want to add before we wrap up up?
- [42:42]
Cece Lira
I don't think you're starting in the right place. So, as a woman, I love how confident the protagonist is throughout the entire scene, but as a reader, that means I'm not curious. So to Lauren's excellent point, yes, you need vulnerability and the way to achieve that. And think of this as a story hack. A good first scene always includes disruption, which necessarily causes a major shift in the protagonist's active emotions. Active emotions? People, not just emotions. And there's no disruption here. Therefore, her active emotions are not activated or shifted. I thought the vision would be the disruption, but she treats this as the most mundane thing in the world, which means there's no disruption, no surprise, no shift. So in storytelling, you must have that surprise. And yes, it varies depending on the genre, but you must have it in the first scene. Having a protagonist that's fully in control prevents that. And there is a way to marry these two things. Things you can have her be confident and in control and still have the disruption with the active emotions. Today is actually March 20th, so I'm covering this extensively in my all new class. Starting it right how to begin your story in the right place and in the right way. So there's a lot to cover and this is really, really important in storytelling. So you must think of those active emotions and that disruption when you're starting.
- [43:57]
Bianca Murray
Thank you Cece. Thanks to everyone. Lauren could you please let our listeners know if you are open to submissions where they might find you?
- [44:05]
Lauren Spieler
Yeah, I am open to submissions. They can find me on Query Manager. For the link to my Query Manager, please check out either my Twitter, which is Aurenspieler, or the Folio website. You can find my full wish list on Publishers Marketplace on my member page. I am really looking forward to hearing from people because I've been close to queries for a while, so come and find me.
- [44:27]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much Kali, Cece and Lauren for your incredible insights and join us next week when we interview another author. Goodbye everyone.
- [44:37]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the Folsom picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at P.S. literary Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's that's.
- [45:28]
Bianca Murray
The shitaboutwriting.substack.Com and that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [45:44]
Cece Lira
Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist, and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend. Attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there Would.
- [47:03]
Bianca Murray
You like to do some good in the world while also standing in line to win amazing literary prizes? Of course you would. I'm hosting a fundraiser for a cause that's close to my heart, which is Literacy in South Africa. The Masana Library Project aims to make the future of South African learners brighter by improving their education and supplying a South African high school with the kind of basic resources that we take for granted in North America. Of course, there are a host of amazing literary prizes up for grabs if you donate to this wonderful cause. They include developmental edits, coaching packages, manuscript critiques, and so much more. To learn more about the cause as well as the prizes and our brilliant and generous sponsors, head to Biancamarae.com and go to the fundraiser tab. Entries close at 8am Eastern Time on 10 April, after which the lucky winners will be announced.