Leveraging Your Characters’ Emotional Complexity

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Leveraging Your Characters’ Emotional Complexity
Release Date: October 31, 2024
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, and CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

In the episode titled "Leveraging Your Characters’ Emotional Complexity," hosts Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, and CeCe Lyra delve deep into the intricacies of creating emotionally rich characters. Geared towards emerging writers, the episode emphasizes the significance of nuanced character development in crafting compelling narratives. A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the "Books with Hooks" segment, where the cohosts critique query letters and opening pages submitted by aspiring authors. This hands-on analysis provides invaluable insights into what agents and editors look for in submissions, helping writers refine their pitches and storytelling techniques.

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Books with Hooks: Submission 1 - "Diving for Black Coral" by Martin Willingham

Query Letter Critique

At [04:16], Bianca Marais introduces the first submission, a query letter by Martin Willingham seeking representation for his 83,000-word debut novel, "Diving for Black Coral." The story is a coming-of-age tale set in the 1980s, blending elements from "Black Swan Green" and "Superbad."

CeCe Lyra begins the critique at [04:22]:

"Your query letter needs a rewrite. I don't like saying this because I always feel like I have to put on my Grinch hat... but it needs a rewrite because you are including things that you don't need to include."

She points out several issues:

• Inclusion of Unnecessary Elements: The verse included in the query adds flair but detracts from the professional tone.
• Lack of Specificity in Plot Points: ceCe notes, "You do explain the inciting incident... But you don't explain why," highlighting the need for clarity in motivations and events.
• Unclear Terminology: The term "Black Coral" is confusing without context, leaving agents unsure of its significance.

Carly Waters echoes CeCe's sentiments at [06:17]:

"The sophistication of Superbad, I will say I have not seen the words sophistication and super bad in the same sentence. I don't know, ever."

She critiques the choice of comparisons, suggesting more era-appropriate references to better anchor the novel's setting.

Opening Pages Critique

Moving to the opening pages at [09:27], CeCe provides an overview of the narrative structure:

• Prologue: Introduces Benton Wilkes in jail, raising immediate questions about his predicament.
• Chapter One: Details Benton's transition to college life, his friendship dynamics, and initial conflicts.

At [10:04], CeCe offers constructive feedback:

"The prologue... is curiosity-inducing because we go back and we go, oh, my gosh, how is this college kid going to end up in jail?"

However, she notes the need for more specificity in the questions posed at the end of the prologue and recommends enriching character interactions to reveal deeper emotional layers. She emphasizes enhancing Benton's introspection to portray him as more emotionally engaged rather than detached.

Carly Waters adds at [16:23]:

"I just want to see interiority and dialogue should never perfectly match."

She underscores the importance of showing rather than telling, encouraging the author to infuse emotion and personal insights into the narrative to create a more immersive experience.

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Books with Hooks: Submission 2 - "Redacted" by Alexa P.

Query Letter Critique

The second submission, presented at [18:31], is a query letter by Alexa P. for her 85,000-word literary fiction novel titled "Redacted" (title partially withheld). The novel intertwines speculative elements with a critique of the wellness industry, narrated by pain itself.

Carly Waters begins her critique at [22:59]:

"This sounds experimental. It says narrated by pain itself... sounds a bit experimental. I love a critique of the wellness industry."

She appreciates the novel's ambitious blend of genres but raises concerns about clarity and execution. Carly questions the speculative aspect of the story, particularly the concept of cats emitting healing vibrations, and encourages specificity regarding the protagonist's injury to ground the narrative.

CeCe Lyra echoes these thoughts at [25:27]:

"I love the hook. The premise is really cool. This is a great, great, great idea for a hook..."

She praises the novel's unique premise and the integration of social issues but notes the challenges of executing an experimental narrative effectively. CeCe emphasizes the importance of giving the pain narrator a distinct personality to avoid the narrative feeling flat and disconnected.

Opening Pages Critique

At [26:50], the opening pages introduce Emily, the protagonist, in a medical setting where pain serves as the narrator. The narrative shifts between Emily's physical experiences and her interactions at home with her partner, Greg.

Carly Waters comments at [27:46]:

"Pain is a communication tool. It sends a signal to your brain something's wrong here."

She discusses the difficulty of personifying pain without it becoming one-dimensional, emphasizing the need for depth in portraying pain's role within the story.

CeCe Lyra adds at [30:45]:

"The pain narrating, this is a great experimental idea, but because pain does not have a motivation, it reads flat."

She suggests either removing the pain narration or infusing it with a purpose and personality to enhance its contribution to the narrative.

Bianca Marais concurs at [33:22]:

"If you give it a personality... then pain needs high stakes tied to it."

She highlights the complexity of maintaining a dual-character narrative where pain itself becomes a character with its own motivations and impacts on the protagonist's journey.

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Key Takeaways and Insights

1. Clarity and Specificity in Query Letters:

   • Avoid unnecessary creative flourishes that may obscure the main pitch.
   • Ensure comparisons and comps are relevant and era-appropriate to strengthen the context.

2. Depth in Character Development:

   • Infuse protagonists with emotional layers through introspection and meaningful interactions.
   • Show character motivations and internal conflicts rather than merely describing actions.

3. Effective Use of Experimental Narratives:

   • When employing unconventional narrators (e.g., pain as a character), ensure they have distinct personalities and motivations to add depth.
   • Balance experimental elements with clarity to maintain reader engagement.

4. Balancing Show vs. Tell:

   • Prioritize showing emotions and character states through actions and dialogue rather than exposition.
   • Use interior monologue and specific details to create a vivid and immersive experience.

5. Constructive Feedback for Aspiring Writers:

   • Embrace honest critiques to refine storytelling techniques.
   • Utilize resources like the hosts' Substack (mentioned at [06:38]) for additional guidance on crafting effective query letters.

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Notable Quotes

• CeCe Lyra at [04:22]:
  "For example, remove the verse. It's so cool. It's so fun. But it doesn't belong in a query letter."

• Carly Waters at [06:17]:
  "The sophistication of Superbad, I will say I have not seen the words sophistication and super bad in the same sentence."

• Carly Waters at [33:22]:
  "If you give it a personality... then pain needs high stakes tied to it."

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Conclusion

The episode "Leveraging Your Characters’ Emotional Complexity" offers a treasure trove of practical advice for writers aiming to deepen their character development and refine their query letters. Through meticulous critique and expert insights, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe guide listeners in navigating the challenges of creating emotionally resonant characters and compelling narratives. Whether you're polishing your latest manuscript or preparing your next query, the lessons from this episode are invaluable for elevating your writing craft.

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For More Information:
Visit the podcast's website at theshitaboutwriting.com for additional resources, upcoming events like the Deep Dive Virtual Retreat, and to submit your query letters for future Books with Hooks segments.

Transcript

[Bianca Marais]

Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website, theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and and to register. We hope to see you there. Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Leera from PS Literary Agency. We'll be kicking off today's episode with our usual Books with Hooks segment, after which we'll go to today's guest. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hooks segment for today's episode. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Cece.

[Cece Leera]

All right, so this writer included a little paragraph for us which was so great, but I'm going to start with their official query letter. Hello Cece. I'm targeting you based on your interest in adult fiction and romantic comedies and because you mentioned on this podcast in 2020 that you like socially awkward characters, I'm seeking representation for my 83,000 word debut novel, Diving for Black A coming of age story of a college student in the 80s for comps. This book combines the detached observation of Black Swan Green, the dogged perseverance of where the Crawdads Sank and and the sophistication of Superbad. Despite his introverted nature, 19 year old Benton Wilkes arrives in Athens, Georgia, filled with excitement, ready to confront college with his fearless best friend. But an hour after they move in, his friend packs his stuff and leaves. Now Benton is alone and assumes he'll spend the year in his room, a lonesome loser after numerous disasters trying to fit in, he finally discovers friends. Friends finds his voice and dances with Shelley. And then he faces a mysterious attack, a broken heart, and a room full of dead animals. When he's thrown in jail for a crime he didn't commit, he makes a new black Coral. This is a story of kooky friendships, unsolved mysteries, and self discovery. But Benton thinks it's about Shelley. Yes, she has stunning blue eyes, but she's also witty, speaks her mind, eats anchovies, and drives a stick. This verse sums up their romance. Her beauty and brains were his mission, but she vetoed his rotten condition. Then, in jail, he found Coral and discovered the moral. Will she welcome his second edition? Born and raised in the South, I currently live in Macon, Georgia. I earned a BBA from the University of Georgia and an MBA from Mercer University. I've had extensive writing experience in my IT career, including co authorship of two books published by IBM, although they weren't novels. The editor told me repeatedly, who do you think you are? A novelist. Thank you for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Martin Willingham.

[Bianca Marais]

Awesome, Cece, thank you. Will you give us the word count there and then your critique?

[Cece Leera]

Okay, so this is 320 words long. I'm not counting the paragraph. That was just for us. Because, again, that was just for us. I do want to begin by saying, yes, I love me a socially awkward protagonist. Like, I think that's so much fun. I'm just gonna be very honest with you here. Your query letter needs a rewrite. I don't like saying this because I always feel like I have to put on my Grinch hat. Maybe I should get a Grinch hat. Like an actual hat. But, yeah, it needs a rewrite because you are including things that you don't need to include. For example, the paragraph that starts with this is a story of kooky friendships and has that little verse. You don't need any of that. Like, remove the verse. It's so cool. It's so fun. But it doesn't belong in a query letter. And the paragraph before that. You do explain the inciting incident, which I believe is a fact. That his best friend leaves him and he has no one. But you don't explain why. And I'm wondering, is it Benton's fault? Maybe we don't need to know why, and that's okay. But after that, all we get are big picture things. Discovers friends, finds his voice, mysterious attack, broken heart. I don't know what any of that looks like. Remember that an agent should be able to Shoot the movie trailer of your story based on your plot paragraph. I should be able to do that, and I don't know what that looks like. I do think it needs a rewrite, and I just think that after the inciting incident, focus on whatever happens to escalate the plot, specifically happens, and then stop at the major dramatic question. Right. You do tell me that he's thrown in jail, which I assume is the climax. And so if it is, keep that as the climax. But after that, I need a major dramatic question. Will he. Whatever. Will they be able to. Whatever. I also don't know what Black Coral means. I mean, in terms of, like, the significance for him. I. Maybe I don't need to know, but I have no idea.

[Carly Waters]

So.

[Cece Leera]

So, yeah, I basically think that you are focused on writing a fun and quirky query letter, which, as a reader, is a joy, but I don't think that you're focused on writing pitch copy. And a query letter should read like pitch copy. That's really important. I also thought that the little anecdote in your author paragraph about who do you think you are? A novelist. That was really sweet. I really enjoyed that.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, your take.

[Carly Waters]

I agree with Cece on everything. I mean, I think the best thing that this person can do is go back to our sub stack. All summer long, we did this thing called the Query Lab, where we posted query letters from authors who then went on to get an agent and then sell their book. And so you can really see patterns there and what's working. And even when you want to be a little bit different or step outside the box, how you have to do that in order to achieve that. Because, you know, nothing speaks louder, I think, than success in terms of these query letters that were able to do the job of hooking an agent. So I suggest everybody, if you haven't, you know, joined the substack, you can still go back and read those. They were on Fridays, I think, for at least eight to 10 weeks. We query Lab series on substack. So go check that out. Okay. In terms of the comps, I thought the comps were really interesting because they're kind of all over the place, in my opinion. I mean, the sophistication of Superbad, I will say I have not seen the words sophistication and super bad in the same sentence. I don't know, ever. So I'm just kind of curious about, like, how this author imagines their book in the context of. Of pop culture and trying to place it, you know, within the 80s and kind of the coming of age. And I don't know, I think there's still a lot to be discovered here. So I think you might want to think about, you know, film comps might be more useful, like 80s film comps as opposed to super bad, which was 2000s film comp, because it's not even recent. So I don't know. I got a lot of questions there. I also have no idea what black coral is and how it's found in jail. I also didn't want to Google black coral because I was like, I don't know if this is something like I don't want on my computer. I don't even know what this is is. So I didn't Google it. How is it found in jail? Coral is obviously something about, you know, the water and you have in the title diving for black Coral. I totally thought this was some sort of, like, book set in a coastal town. So I don't know, I think there's just some alignment issues in terms of, like, the vision and the brand and the marketing, which this person did allude to in their kind of opening paragraph. We didn't read. So I think this person in their head knows what this book is, but we're just not seeing it kind of come to life for. From a whole package perspective.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. Just a reminder to our listeners, there's a whole bunch of things that we do on our socials, on Instagram and that we do in our newsletter that we don't necessarily do on the podcast. So we just recently had a great giveaway for Leon Moriarty's books. That's not something that we did on the podcast. It was on our socials. It was in our newsletter. So please don't think that just because you listen to the podcast, you don't need to be following us there to get. Get access to additional content. We don't believe in the same content across multiple platforms. Each platform is going to give you additional content, so don't forget that. Okay, Cece, can you give us an overview of what was in those opening pages?

[Cece Leera]

So we have a brief prologue of the protagonist in jail. Then we go back to his first day in college. His parents are saying goodbye. He goes to his best friend Tucker's room and is surprised to see him packing. And Tucker tells him that his girlfriend back home is pregnant, so he's dropping out of college and getting married. They say goodbye back in his room. His roommate is moving in, and they meet, and the protagonist does not like him because he feels like one of those guys. A winner.

[Bianca Marais]

Great. Thank you so much. Okay, can you take us through what your thoughts were on those opening pages?

[Cece Leera]

Absolutely. I will begin by saying that, you know, we have a strict rule here about how many pages we review. We review 5 pages, double stack based. And so this person did send in more. And so I stopped reading at the five page mark to be fair with everyone. So starting from the top, the prologue. I actually think this is a smart prologue, having him start in jail because it's very short and it is like curiosity inducing because we go back and we go, oh, my gosh, how is this college kid going to end up in jail? And it ends with three questions. I'm innocent, right? Why did I mention the horse? Why did they listen? What will Shelly do? It guess. That's four questions, but like three lines. I don't think those are the right questions. I think that the questions need to be more specific. I think that the why did I mention the horse? Is great, not, why do they listen. What will Shelly do? Too vague. You need to end with a very specific Shelly question, given her importance. So I don't know your story, but it could be something like, what will happen if Shelly finds the letter? Or, you know, will Shelley bail him out? I don't know what the question is, but it needs to be more specific. It can be, what will she do in order to really, like, pique the curiosity? But I would keep the prologue, which is not something I say often. Okay, so now chapter one. We're in college with him. As I was reading this, I noticed a pattern. And so we have him talking to his parents and his parents. His mom says, you know, you're searching for something, but don't forget us. And he's like, searching, I promise mom, but I'm not searching for anything. And then he has like an epiphany in that moment where he's like, I wanted freedom from my old life and experience it with Tucker. I. As I was reading that interaction, it felt forced. I don't think he would be having an epiphany in that moment. I don't think that's natural. Especially an epiphany that's so vague. Like, I wanted freedom from my old life. That's too big picture. And the fact that his mom's intuition is getting things right feels a little plot convenient. His dad even calls it, oh, mother's intuition. So I would just tweak that interaction. But more importantly, I would add layers to it. So, for example, when his mom Says things like, I know you're searching, but don't forget us. Is it typical of his mom to project her feelings onto him? Is it unusual? What does their relationship dynamics look like? This is a really good opportunity for you to show that when he has his epiphany and realizes he wants freedom, he has that in interiority, which is great. And he doesn't say it, which is also great. Interiority and dialogue should never perfectly match. However, I don't know why he didn't say it. Is it because he's a nice person who doesn't want to hurt his mom's feelings? Is it because he fears consequences? Maybe they'll cut him off financially? Is it because they'll never understand because they lived their whole lives in the small town and they've never ventured into the big world? Something else. I don't know. I think it's really important to zoom out and show dynamics when you are showing an interaction, because that contributes to. To character. Another thing I noticed about the beginning is that you are explaining a little too much. So we have dialogue that reads, his dad is talking. Well, you always have Tucker. And then we have a pure narration line that reads, my best friend Tucker moved into a different dorm an hour earlier. That is pure explanation. I would include emotion or interiority or strong opinion in that sentence to remove the feeling of pure explanation. So, for example, you could say the fact that Tucker had just moved into a dormant hour earlier was a relief. But I wish dad wouldn't bring it up because he thinks I'm so dependent on Tucker. Again, I don't know your character well enough to tell you what he would be thinking. You know him. But I think that if you include emotion and include a strong opinion, you're going to really, really elevate a whole bunch of sentences here. And I did mark a few for you. When he goes to Tucker's room, I didn't see any comparison. That's not realistic. Everyone compares. Teenagers especially. So, like, is Tucker's room better than his? Is it better located? Is it worse located? Is he, like, relieved that it's only a few doors down? Would he want more space, et cetera, et cetera? I wanted all of these little details of his opinion and his projections because that really, really makes us connect with character. I also want to understand more of his dynamics with his best friend. We actually get a line on their dynamics at the very end of their interaction. I wanted that to be moved up because while they're talking, I want to know, like, is it love? Hate relationship. You know, like, it should be messy, it should be complicated, because the most interesting relationships are even if it's overall positive. Right. I really, really wanted to see that. As he and Tucker are talking, I have the same notes in terms of, like, wanting more psychological acuity, wanting more in terms of the relationship dynamics, and I've marked those up for you. Our substack supporters will be able to see these notes. I share questions that I feel like you could answer in the moments that you maybe could answer. It's obviously totally up to you, but I needed to connect with this character more, which actually brings me to my big picture note. The protagonist right now is reading as emotionally detached, and that's because you are not giving us deep, deep access into his psyche. When he buys the bike from Tucker, I don't know if he's buying the bike because he wants a memento from his friend or because he actually needs a bike. When he hears about his friend getting married, I have no lines about, you know, we've never talked about marriage before. We've never even had that conversation because we're so young. Or maybe, like, you know, they've always talked about getting married, but I never thought it would happen this soon. When Tucker shuts him out and doesn't open up, I don't have a line about, Tucker always does this. Like, I've talked to him about it or maybe like, Tucker isn't usually like this. He must be really freaked out. And so it's. I want to see him observing his best friend and his parents, and I want to see how he sees his place in the world. You know, at the end of the day, that's so, so, so important for storytelling. When he meets the new roommate, he doesn't like him. That is very clear. This is established in an unambiguous way, but I don't think that it's established with the depth that it could, though. Of all the relationships here, it is the one with more depth because we get the whole, like, oh, he's one of those guys, a winner, you know? So I do think that there's work to be done in terms of his psyche, in terms of the depth, in terms of the psychological acuity, socio emotional framing. It's a lot of work, but it's also a lot of fun. So I recommend that you do that, and I hope that my notes were helpful.

[Bianca Marais]

Awesome, Cece. Thank you. Carly, what do you have to add to that?

[Carly Waters]

I think I'd add two larger points. The first being, it seems pretty important that this book is set in the 80s and yet I didn't really feel like we were in the 80s. I mean, I didn't really know where we were in space and time. There was brand names that were talked about, but to be honest with you, some of the brand names are just like tried and true, you know, like L.L. bean, I think is one of them, which, you know, is around today. So I didn't really get a true sense of why it had to be said in the 80s and all that kind of specificity that goes with it of just making sure that we understand that. The second thing is I want to talk about. This is actually something that we talked about recently for our substack, which is what do characters want and how do we know what they want? And so this person actually kind of wrote it all out and I think it's too much telling. And so I'll read it for you just because we always say, what does this character want? What are they trying to accomplish? And so here's the sentence on the first page. I just want. I pause mid sentence. What did I want? I didn't care about my grades, my major, higher learning, or the funky downtown music scene, but I wasn't apathetic. I did want something. I just never given it enough name. In those few seconds it hit me. I wanted freedom from my old life and to experience it with Tucker. I couldn't say that to mom and dad, of course, how about this? I want to get started on my career. And so that's just so much telling, you know, and there's so many other ways that we can communicate all of that. Especially since this is probably a. Ideally it is a kind of like literary coming of age novel because it's set in the 80s. I don't think it's a YA novel. So yeah, like that's an example of too much telling. You know, there's just so many other ways that we can communicate that and kind of build that into the first few pages through like cece was talking about the socio emotional framework and all of that. So I don't know, I think there's a lot of opportunity here for specificity and character development and scene work and setting. And so we're just kind of scratching the surface here, you know, it just. It still feels like a really early draft for me.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, we are now going to move on to the second submission. Will you please read that for us?

[Carly Waters]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Carly Waters]

Dear Carly, thank you for cultivating such a valuable educational platform for emerging writers. I knew I had to query you when I saw the two fun facts on your page are for love of triathlons and your pet. Below was my query letter narrated by pain itself. Title redacted 85,000 words is a literary fiction that combines grounded speculative elements in the tradition of Aisha Minarez Siddiqui's the Center with a nuanced critique of the wellness industry in the medical industrial complex. As in Ling Ling Huang's Natural Beauty And Megan Giddings, Lakewood. A creative reimagining of the sea cure prescribed by male doctors to hysterical women in the 18th century. Title redacted explores the lengths will go to to live a pain free life. When cats purr, they emit vibrations at a frequency that promotes bone growth, accelerates soft tissue repair and reduces inflammation in their bodies. But scientists have yet to unlock a therapeutic application to human injury. Until now. Almost a decade after first stepping on the track as a promising college athlete, Emily is now an indifferent bystander to her own life. All of her time, money and emotional energy drained by the old running entry that keeps her in daily chronic pain. With nowhere else to turn when her job and relationship starts slipping through the cracks, she enrolls in the center for Feline Energy Learning and the Wellness center, pioneering the research on the healing power of cat vibrations. There, Emily receives training in the center's pain abatement method and a gray tabby to purr her injury away. As Emily's pain lessens, set free from the jail of her own body, her world opens up and she becomes enmeshed in the drug driven debauchery among the center's healed clients. But when she discovers that healing vibrations are made possible only by depriving the cats of basic needs and that the center's staff of young immigrants are indentured to enact the cruelty in exchange for life saving treatment for their loved ones, Emily must choose whether to continue her own treatment despite the costs, or give up what might be her only chance to feel like herself again. Faced with my own career ending sports injury, I search for embodied stories that render physical pain in three dimensions on the page. Unable to find one, I wrote my own. A Washington, D.C. native immigration lawyer, I earned my BA and MA from the University of Chicago and my JD from Georgetown University. I was recently shortlisted for Unleash Lit's WIP Prize and my writing has appeared in the Adroit Journal, the Chicago Maroon, and the Georgetown Journal of Legal Ethics. May I send you the full manuscript? Best wishes, Alexa P. Thank you Carly.

[Bianca Marais]

Wow, that seemed like quite long. What was the word? Count day.

[Carly Waters]

All right, we clocked in at 4:52, so I think on the longer side of something we've seen recently on the show. All right, so my first instinct is this sounds experimental. It says narrated by pain itself. I'm like, ooh, okay, we're gonna be going on a slight experimental journey which again, when everything's executed really well, everything can work. So I'm just a bit like, okay, sounds A bit experimental. I love a critique of the wellness industry. You know, I think these comps are super interesting. I think the hook is really interesting. This creative reimagining of the quote unquote, hysterical women. You know, all of that is just super, super fascinating. And it's a good literary hook, right? You know, a creative reimagining. So I think we're all on point in terms of being on brand in that capacity. I was super curious about. I don't know anything about cats. I'm a dog person, personally. I mean, I assume this is like, slightly speculative because you say it's speculative in the second paragraph, but is that why cats purr? I don't know. I'm like, do I have to go down a rabbit hole of, like, what cats are actually capable of? Like, do we have to name what is speculative about this? Potentially, you might want to say what exactly is speculative about it, but I'm just throwing that out there just because I don't know that much about cats. I think it's really important here to know what her running injury is. I think a back injury versus an ankle injury versus, like, head trauma from falling while running. Like, these are all wildly different things and wildly different treatments. So I think it's. To me, it would be really important for us to know what the injury is specifically. That could be really important. You know, I'm going to be honest, I don't know if you're going to need a future trigger warning about animal cruelty, because I don't know how deep this goes. You know, I don't think you need a trigger warning or content warning in the query letter. I usually never suggest that, but you just might want to think about that for the synopsis or the manuscript. Again, just flagging that because I. I don't know how on the page things are, but yeah, I think your author bio paragraph is great. You know, longtime listeners of the show will also probably know that I had a career ending university sports injury myself. I broke my orbital bone in a soccer game and that was the end for me. So I totally empathize of like, you know, that ending of a identity and a career path that you maybe thought that you would have. So I can. I can really feel that energy here.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, handing it across to you.

[Cece Leera]

I want to start by saying that this person said, carly, I knew I had to query you because of your love for triathlons. Carly, thank you for doing triathlons. You really like upping our group's cool average and this is really important, you know, Like, I'm for sure breaking it down, but yay. Thank you. So I love the hook. Like, the premise is really cool. I don't know if that's why cats do that, but it tracks. Like, I don't think of myself as either a dog or a cat person. I love them both equally. So it makes total sense that that is true. The hook is amazing. Like, this is a great, great, great idea for a hook, and you escalated it perfectly because you brought in the human element to it with the immigration situation. So, like, this is really good. This is really good. This is really interesting. The people are horrible. Obviously, the people at the center who are doing this, I want them to die a very slow death. I don't like them. But, yeah, like, this is a really, really good hook. So kudos to you. I also thought the same thing. I thought, hey, experimental. Which, by the way, I love experimental fiction, but it's really hard to pull off. Like, some things are just harder than others to pull off. Experimental is high on that list. So agents are probably going to think that, but they have to, because it's what you're doing, so. So, you know, it's all about the execution.

[Bianca Marais]

Wonderful, Cece. Thank you. Okay, Carly, can you give us an overview of what's in those opening pages?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so just to reiterate, it was mentioned in the query letter, but just to remind everybody, it is narrated by pain itself, which, again, was part of the experimental piece there. We start with our character, not our pain character, but our female main character at the doctor's office getting some medical treatment with some sort of, you know, needles in places and all of that type of stuff. So they kind of talk through that, you know, the pain scale with the doctor and how things are feeling in terms of the pain. Then our character says, it still hurts a lot, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Still in a lot of pain. Our pain narrator is kind of explaining the way that they are working through medical terminology. Then our character, our female character gets in the car, drives home to her apartment, where we meet Greg, her partner. Greg is in bike shoes and kind of like, clomping around the apartment in their bike shoes. And then our main character is at home, and that is where we end.

[Bianca Marais]

Okay, what was your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so it took me a minute to remember, which is why I said that off the top, that it is narrated by pain itself, because I kind of forgot a little bit, even though I just read the query letter when I saw I. And I was like, oh, but Emily is third person. And then I'm getting an eye. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, this is pain. First thing I wanted to say was kind of just around the doctor, it just says, you know, the doctor, they're not really like embodied. I don't know, it was just interesting to me what this doctor was trying to do other than relieve the pain. Because in my mind, like, don't physiotherapists do that? Like, unless you're at a really specific pain clinic with a very specific type of doctor, which I think that would be worth mentioning, you know, if it was like escalated so high like you were at a pain clinic. It was just kind of like the doctor, not like the blank doctor in terms of the specificity. Because in medical fields this would all be very, very specific. So I don't know, I was like, why wouldn't you be at a physio? Or instead? So I kind of just had some like scene questions that I think, you know, are worth mentioning. But because it's narrated by pain itself, it's kind of like pain is telling us from pain's perspective what they're witnessing potentially, but it's kind of third person omniscient. I don't know. I have a lot of questions about how everything is relating to each other in that capacity. One thing I will say is pain is obviously a very like, physical experience. Anybody that has been in a lot of pain or experienced intense or chronic pain knows like how physical it is. And so trying to communicate something so physical and in your body on the page and repeatedly is really hard. Like, I noticed the word pinched just repeated again and again and again. I'm concerned how many different ways we can talk about like pain itself and how it shows up in the body throughout the entire course of a manuscript. I just have a lot of questions about how that execution is going to come through. I also felt like talking about what a character's want. What does pain want? If we are being narrated by pain, what does pain want? Right. As a character, to me it felt very just like one dimensional. The pain character, you know, voice or whatever, was just saying, oh, I scraped this joint and the knotty fascia every time her right foot hit the ground. It's really just like narrating bodily movements, which to me, from like a reader's perspective isn't as interesting as I want it to be because quite frankly, a play by play of somebody walking is not that interesting. So I don't know. I think there is a lot of potential here in terms of just a super interesting hook. I'm just worried about immense amounts of repetition, how we assign words to the physical embodiment of pain, and how much of this is going to be play by play. As I said, what the motivations of our narrator are, because if they're going to be guiding us through this book, they're a huge part of this novel. And I don't know, I kind of just felt like I could do without, to be perfectly honest with you. I didn't actually feel like pain was actually contributing too much to my read of the book. It was kind of just bringing me out of the moment. So that's my thought.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. Cece, your take on it.

[Cece Leera]

Okay, so I'll start with a zooming in thing and then I'll zoom out. The first line reads, emily lay on her stomach, neck twisted to the side, left cheek pressed flat into the padded table, a large needle hovering over her back. This is a matter of taste, but part of my job on this podcast is to share opinions based on my taste. This line is pure narration. Your first line should not be pure narration. As I say this, someone's going, what about this book that does it? Yes. There's always exceptions. The best books start with interiority. I see this. This kind of line all the time in submissions. Emily crossed the street, juggling a handbag in her left hand and a Starbucks cup on her right hand. Emily sat down to answer the phone on the third ring, shushing her assistant before saying, hello, Emily. Description.

[Carly Waters]

Description.

[Cece Leera]

Description. Movement. Movement, movement. Something a camera could capture. I do not want that. I want interiority. It is your call. I think you want that too, because you want my brain to fuse with your brain right away. And that is accomplished through excellent interiority. Cerebral creative fusion happens through interiority. Does not happen in any other way. And so I think that you should rewrite your first sentence and change the entry point into the story. It's a zooming in note because it's like one line and for anyone thinking, why can't you just wait till the second line? This is just how the life works. I don't know. People have the attention span of moths. Life is sad. It's 2024. I don't know. The zooming out note that I had is honestly quite similar to Carly's, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Like the whole pain narrating, this is a great experimental idea, but because pain does not have a motivation, it reads flat. I would either Remove this whole idea and just have this be third person, like Emily's story. Or you have to give pain a personality. But then does pain want to die? Because if pain stops hurting, Emily, like, if pain stops existing, there's no pain, so it dies. Or does pain want to live? So is pain evil? It's like all these questions, right? Like, as it stands, it's not working. I'm getting very blunt with you, very direct, because I think that you want this to be as good as it can possibly be. I am not connecting with it because of this whole pain thing, because pain.

[Carly Waters]

Is a communication tool. Sorry to cut you off, Cece. Like, pain in our bodies, it's designed to communicate with us. Right. Like, pain sends a signal to your brain something's wrong here. So to me, pain is a communication tool. It could be something sinister in terms of the intention to cause pain, to cause discomfort, but the ultimate goal of pain is communication. So, like, I don't know, I just. I can't figure out where the story is here, I guess, is my thought.

[Cece Leera]

No, that's so true, though. It is a communication tool. But then do you want to, like, give it a personality? Kind of like an inside out where, like, the emotions also have personalities, you know, I don't know. It's whatever you want because it's your book. It's not my book, but I have to be honest and say that in its current form, it's not working. So you either have to dial it way up and make it way voice here and give pain all these, like, deep things or remove it. I don't think that as it stands, it's working.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. I think giving pain personality is the way to go if you want to keep it in this current form.

[Bianca Marais]

Yeah. But then also, if you give it a personality and it's a character in the book as a narrator, then pain needs, once needs high stakes tied to it. Right. What is it that pain actually wants? And what is pain doing to get what it wants in terms of how it tips the dominoes over? It can't just be the main character. It's going to be pain as well. So that really complicates it as well.

[Carly Waters]

I think the inside out comp is really smart. And I haven't seen inside out 2. It's on my list to see. I've seen one which is phenomenal, but I think that's a really, really good example.

[Cece Leera]

Go see it. It's really good.

[Bianca Marais]

Wonderful. Thank you so much to Carly and Cece, as always, for their wonderful insights. If you would like to see Submit to Books With Hooks, you go to the Shit About Writing and go to the Books With Hooks tab and you can submit there. If you have submitted in the past and your submission wasn't chosen and you would like to resubmit, just wait. I think we said four months but we can move it now to sort of two months. After two months if it hasn't been on the podcast you can resubmit if it has changed quite substantially. Right? We will do Books With Hooks again in two weeks time. Next week we are back to the author interview. Carly and Cece thank you.

[Narrator]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written.

[Carly Waters]

Notes for the fulsome picture.

[Narrator]

Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at P.S. literary Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carlee and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Age Agency. A reminder about all the ways that.

[Carly Waters]

You can support us as a show.

[Narrator]

Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack Newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it at the about writing.substack.com that's the shitaboutwriting.substack.com and that's it for today's episode.

[Bianca Marais]

I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes. Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monahan who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat. And now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.