Cece Lira (3:22)

So Wells Ranch is a fictional place. There are some places that kind of have similar names to actual places in bc, And I didn't do that consciously. It was just kind of a subconscious oops. But it's based. I took a lot of my favorite parts of bc, which is where I was born and raised, and put them all into one place and stuck a cattle ranch in the middle of it, which is where all of our stories are kind of centered around. But then, of course, they veer off into the small town that neighbors the ranch and that sort of thing. And it follows a family, the Wells family, and they've been ranching in the B.C. interior for 100 years. And now it's the three, three of the sons that are running it. And they're all finding love them and some of their ranch hands as well, because they're kind of all like brothers anyways. So.

Carly Waters (4:15)

Yeah, so everybody has to read the books to kind of get the full sense of it. But I always say from the minute, you know, I read any of these pages and read the first book in the series, that Wells Ranch is a very real place to me. It's very visceral. I feel like I can close my eyes and I can be there. And I was joking with you on social media today. I'm like, I want to get on a plane and be there and hang out with all my favorite guys and gals because it is a really real place. So let's walk us through your kind of publishing journey, because I think one of the things that's interesting about you and about our working relationship is that you had self published these titles. And I get. We get this question all the time, whether it's on the show or I get this question Personally about what happens when you self publish and then maybe you want to do traditional or it's like trying to figure out what that path looks like for you. So maybe walk us through. Yeah. Kind of your foray into self publishing and when you felt like you needed extra help or you, you were ready to make the leap to traditional.

Cece Lira (5:07)

Yeah. So I, when I initially decided that I wanted to finally publish a book after talking about it my entire life, I, you know, as we all do, I didn't really know much about self publishing. So instantly I was like, traditional publishing it is. And I spend a lot of time querying agents and doing that entire thing. And I mean it's. Anyone who's done it before knows that it's not the most fun process most of the time. Right. It's a lot of rejection and so to kind of. And obsessing too. Right. You're constantly checking your email. Has anyone gotten back to me? And then you send out a full manuscript and you're just sitting there on pins and needles. So I started writing Alive and Wells while that was all going on just to give myself something else to focus on. And during that process and during the querying process, I got more involved in booktok and Bookstagram and that's where I was seeing authors self publishing and having a lot of great success with it and especially in the small town romance kind of sub genre. I just, I was like, oh, this is something I could maybe try and do. And I was still querying while I was going through the whole self pub process. And then yeah, I put it out there and kind of just was like, I just want to have a book out there. I don't care how it goes out there, I just want it out into the world just to say I did it. And so then once I did it, it was really well received, more than I thought it would ever be. It blew up way beyond what I thought would happen. And so then that's when all of a sudden I had an audiobook company reach out to me about buying audio rights and then I had an actual like publishing house reach out. And at first I thought that was a scam and again that was really, I was like, okay with the audio thing. I was able to talk to a bunch of other authors who had done that because that's really common in the self pub world where you sort of negotiate your own audio deals and that sort of thing. But then when a true trad deal was all of a sudden placed in front of me, I was like, ooh, this is way beyond what I know anything about. I do not feel comfortable trying to negotiate for myself or trying to even just read through the offer letter that they sent over. So then that's when I frantically was like, okay, let's reach out to some of those agents that I had initially queried and see what comes of this, see if somebody will help me. Basically, that's how we landed here with you, which is great.

Carly Waters (7:44)

We'll come back to that point. I want to just rewind a little bit to the editing process. So talk to me about what that was like. As you said, you obviously went through this yourself. Did you hire an editor? What kind of support did you set yourself up for success with in the self publishing space?

Cece Lira (7:58)

Yeah, so the two things that I decided I was going to actually invest money in because it can get expensive really quickly and I didn't know that so many people never do earn out on their first book. Right. But I decided I was going to spend money on an editor and the COVID And so that's what I did. I found a great cover designer and a great editor. And yeah, that was really. I think those are like the two most necessary things because those are the two things that are actually going to have people pick up your book and then talk about your book after they've read it. If, if they pick it up because it has a pretty cover but inside is just a hot mess, then they're probably not going to tell their friends to go read it. So, yeah, so I did all that myself.

Carly Waters (8:42)

Yeah, yeah, no, and it really showed. I mean, so. So let's pick up where you kind of. We're ending that story. So. Yeah, so I got an email from Bailey saying I have an offer in hand. This is my series, this is out. And right away, I don't know, I feel like I'd been looking for a small town romance series to work on for a really long time. And I think romance as a genre we can kind get to. This has kind of waxed and waned in terms of the favor or marketability or, you know, how it's received in the marketplace. And you know, it's always been something I'd wanted to work on, but it's really hot right now in many ways, whether it's spicy hot or hot as a category. And so it just felt like, you know, the right time. So I read it right away. I think I read it that weekend and I was like, where's the next book in the series? I think you'll do it on the Monday I was like, I know there's more books and I need them now. And I felt like one of your Book Talk fans, I was like, I need more.

Bailey Hanna (9:29)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (9:30)

And they're just, they're really, you know, incredible books. And I think one of the things that you do so well and one of the things that really sets you apart is you obvious, as I said, you have the world building. You have this like deep, rich characterization where we really feel like both the male lead and the female lead have their own like personal journeys. They're on. They're very kind of rich and deep in terms of the subject matter they're dealing with. You know, it's everything from, you know, family health challenges to fertility challenges to abortion and domestic violence. Like you're kind of, you're covering the gamut in terms of these real life, real world issues in such a thoughtful way. And then we get, we have our open door romance scenes as well. So we have like absolutely everything that anybody could want in terms of entertainment value, which I think is just so powerful. And so, you know, we don't have to get into the specifics about like deal making and things like that. But Bailey and I went through the process of kind of evaluating, you know, what was the right fit for her in terms of the right traditional deal. And sometimes, you know, there's a lot of, you know, conversation back and forth about what's the right fit and what does it look like. And you know, just because somebody gets an offer doesn't mean they have to accept an offer. And kind of working our way to what we felt like was the right fit for you, which was at the Valentine Bantam Dell imprint and under the Dell umbrella for romance. And yeah, we're kind of, we're in the midst of all the marketing, as you guys know, ahead of publication is when we kind of do all of the, the pre pub marketing plans. So we are, we are in it and recording ahead of time here. And the book that we are going to be kind of talking about on socials right now, as you guys are listening, is Change of Heart. So Bailey, why don't you tell us about Change, which is the third book in the Wells Ranch series.

Cece Lira (11:05)

So Change of Heart is about the youngest of the three Wells brothers, Denver. He's kind of, you see a lot of him in the first two books. He's very much the goofy youngest brother that we all know and love and he's got a bit of a playboy reputation, but that all we come to find out sort of stems from his high school sweetheart leaving and they broke up. After graduation, she moves to the big city. It's really angsty. There's a lot of emotions. And they're 18 and they don't necessarily make the best choices. So they break up. She's gone and she doesn't come back. And he doesn't think that she's ever going to come back. So he kind of is just out there playing the field, you know, doing whatever, just getting by day to day. And then Blair, our female protagonist, comes back because her mother is diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. And it's just getting to be a little bit too much for the family to. For her dad to take care of her mom all on his own. And she's a nurse practitioner so it works out well for her to come back and work in the clinic in town and take care of her mom. But of course it's a small town, so that means that she can't really avoid her ex boyfriend and they're just sort of thrown together and it also, of course, small town life. Her best friend is with his best friend. They're the couple from book two. So they just keep having that forced proximity where they just kind of keep running into each other and then eventually it kind of comes out. Of course, because it's romance that they've always loved each other. Both of them have been feeling this way for a long time and. And yeah, it's just really angsty and hot and spicy and sweet and yeah, I love them so much.

Carly Waters (12:59)

I know. I love this one so much. And the second chance romance, what do you think it is about a second chance romance that always gets everybody. What do you think it is?

Cece Lira (13:06)

I think it's the angstiness. Like we just. If you want to pick up a book where you're almost guaranteed to cry at some point, like Second chance is a pretty sure bet because you know that they have to break up at some point. And then, yeah, it's just the sweet them kind of rediscovering who they are and falling back in love. That's really sweet. There's one line where Blair says that like, how lucky is she that she got to love this man twice in the same lifetime?

Carly Waters (13:36)

So yeah, no, it's so beautiful. So talk to me about your relationship with Booktok. And I know, you know, TikTok has been all over the place in terms of accelerating, you know, the growth of the book business and kind of making sure that romance is kind of getting its star treatment right now. But then there was Also like, is TikTok going to go away? And then it came back and up and down all of the emotional roller coaster of TikTok. But we cannot deny the power that it has in terms of connecting readers with books. And so yeah, walk me through what your relationship is like, whether it's with your fans or the app or the hashtag.

Cece Lira (14:06)

Yeah, it's really, I think especially for self published authors, it's, it's really changed the landscape. It's just made authors so much more accessible and readers can find you and find your books, even if you're a newly self published author and your books aren't on the shelves in the bookstores or wherever they're not being featured in magazines and all of these places where you might find traditionally published books. But it's just people, people have so much power. The influencers on BookTok and Bookstagram, it is wild. So wild. I mean, when I first published I only had a few hundred followers. I wasn't anybody. And it really just took a couple of those people who have a hundred thousand or fifty thousand or ten thousand followers to just share about my books a couple times and that's all it took for things to just blow up. So it's, it's wild. And I know everyone that I'm friends with was stressing still is a little bit about TikTok going away because then it's just, is there ever going to be anything that's going to have quite as much power as booktok has had? I don't know. So yeah.

Carly Waters (15:27)

Oh, it's interesting. I mean, and it's still continuing to sustain, you know, a lot of the business and a lot of that word of mouth. So yeah, no, we can't, we definitely can't, can't deny its power. Okay, so let's come back to what you were saying about a book has to be really well written in order for people to kind of recommend it to a friend. So how did you develop your craft and learn your craft and win that confidence as an author? Walk us through your kind of craft journey.

Cece Lira (15:51)

So I've been writing ever since I.

Carly Waters (15:53)

Was a little kid.

Cece Lira (15:53)

I was the kid in elementary school entering writing contests like as if I thought I was going to win against adults who had probably been writing for 30 plus years. And I was 12. But you know, I, I just loved it. And so I carried that throughout the rest of my life and I kind of veered off and got a biology degree but still kept taking all my university electives in creative writing and that sort of thing. And then I just spent a lot of time reading. And then when I decided finally that I actually wanted to write and try and publish something, I. Alive and Wells wasn't my first full novel that I wrote. So I wrote one. It was awful. It was terrible. Like, I feel so bad for the one girl who read was a mess. And then I wrote another one and that was the one that I was querying and even still probably needs some work. Like there's a reason why nobody wanted it. But yeah, so it was just that repetition and you know, just really using that writing muscle and just getting into it. And then once it was written, having beta reader after beta reader read through it, give me feedback and take that, don't necessarily use all of that because it's all subjective. But just having those readers and they also, not only are they giving you critical feedback, but the positive feedback is so helpful too, to kind of boost that confidence. Because it's scary writing a book and putting it out there for people to read, not having any idea how they're gonna perceive it. So.

Carly Waters (17:31)

Yeah, yeah. And one thing, you know, we don't have to say exactly where you live, but you live out in the country, you're not in a major city and so, you know, you don't have access to kind of in person writing groups necessarily. So what are some of the online ways that you keep in touch with writer friends and things like that?

Cece Lira (17:45)

So at first it was Facebook before I really dove into Bookstagram or Booktok. And there's so many groups out there for authors at every stage of their journey. And whether they're self published or they're traditionally published or in their. They're in the process of querying. You can find community just through that. And then I joined Bookstagram and Booktok kind of in the lead up to releasing Alive and Wells. And I've made so many friends, so, so many friends, including, I mean, authors who are extremely successful. And they're great because when I all of a sudden received that offer, out of nowhere I was able to send a text to another author who I knew had just recently gotten a traditionally published deal. Being like, what do I do? And she kind of like calmed me down a little bit. It's. Yeah, it's so nice to have all of these people that I've been able to become friends with on Bookstagram, especially book talks, a little bit different of a community. Bookstagram to me feels much more close knit. We're all communicating every day, we're all dming Every day and in these group chats. So, yeah, I think anybody who kind of needs that, just. Just go make the account and just start putting yourself out there, Start commenting, start engaging, and. And then all of a sudden, before you know it, you have this really great friend group of both readers and other authors who you can talk to and you can sit there. Some of, like, my best nights are just spent sending voice notes back and forth with a couple of my author friends, and we're just brainstorming and we're coming up with book ideas, and it's so much fun. So, yeah, I don't think you need to have the in person necessarily. You can. You can find your people anywhere.

Carly Waters (19:31)

Yeah, I love that. I was talking with somebody in DM this weekend about voice notes and how underutilized they are. Voice notes are incredible way to kind of convey what you're trying to say. Yes. Yeah, they're incredible.

Cece Lira (19:42)

Sometimes my hands are just tired and I just want to talk. Right. Like, I don't want to type anymore. I'm done with typing.

Carly Waters (19:49)

I know. I feel like that too, because I'm like, I'm typing emails all day.

Cece Lira (19:52)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (19:53)

Maybe we just need a voice note.

Cece Lira (19:54)

At the end of the day, and you can walk around and do chores in your house and like.

Bailey Hanna (19:58)

Yeah.

Cece Lira (19:59)

My friends and I call it our daily podcasts, because all of a sudden. All of a sudden, you've sent 20 minutes to somebody and you're like, oops, sorry. It's just great.

Carly Waters (20:08)

I love that. I love that some people post their podcasts, some just text them to each other.

Cece Lira (20:12)

Yes, exactly.

Carly Waters (20:14)

Yeah. So to walk me through your relationship with going to conventions and things like that. So we obviously talked to the online world, but you do travel and go to conventions and cons. Do you want to walk us through how you started going to those and. And what those are. What those are like. And where you're going this year and where you're connecting with people.

Cece Lira (20:31)

Yeah. So I. It was all bookstagram again, because you see these other authors doing it, and you see readers going there, and then all of a sudden, readers are asking you, hey, where are you going next year? And I was like, oh, I don't. I don't know. Where am I going? And I had a little bit of imposter syndrome in the beginning especially. And I. I told myself, I'm not gonna even apply for any of these because I am so scared to just sit there, and nobody cares. Nobody knows who I am. So I'm waiting.

Carly Waters (21:00)

The lonely person at the table Exactly.

Cece Lira (21:02)

I don't want to just have to sit there, like, twiddling my thumbs with a fake smile on all day, hoping somebody comes over to talk to me. So I waited. And then there's a really great book signing event that happens in the Rockies every year called Romance Invades the Canadian Rockies. And they reached out to me because they had a couple people cancel for this past July. And so then I was like, okay, if they're asking me, then that obviously means that people do know who I am. So, fine, I guess I'll go. And then I started kind of just applying to other cons where it seems like there's a lot of my readers that might be there, or there's a lot of other authors that kind of write in the same genre, or some of them just seem fun. Like, at this point, there's so many cons and signings out there that I kind of also just pick based on where I would like to go on vacation. So I'm like, hey, a weekend in Vegas, that sounds like fun. I'm like, oh, next year, a weekend in San Diego. Sure. Yeah, that sounds like. That sounds like a fun time. We'll bring the family, we'll go to the zoo. We'll make it a whole thing. So, yeah, and it's just. It's fun. I was really scared for the first one, but it's just. Nothing beats actually meeting these people face to face and having them tell you how much they love your books or crying even, because of some. I mean, obviously, there's so many heavy topics in my books that I do get a lot of people being like, hey, this really helped me through some hard times or whatever. Made me feel seen. And so then we have a little cry about it together. And that's good. It's like, sustenance keeps me going.

Carly Waters (22:38)

Yeah. That's so emotionally draining, though, like. So I've been to a lot of conferences, writers conferences, but I don't cry with people usually, so that's emotional.

Cece Lira (22:47)

Yes. And I am definitely an introvert, so it is very draining. Afterwards, I'm like, okay, I just need a few days by myself. Nobody talked to me.

Carly Waters (22:57)

But, yeah, that's why it's the vacation on after. After where you're going.

Cece Lira (23:01)

Exactly. Yeah.

Carly Waters (23:02)

Who are some of your favorite authors? Who do you like to read or who do you study from? Where do you get inspiration from? Talk to me about your reading habits.

Cece Lira (23:10)

Oh, I am such a mood reader. I am all over the place. I grew up on historical fiction. Loved it. That's really where I thought I was gonna go. And maybe one day, I mean, historical romance is not really having its moment right now, but at some point maybe it'll kind of have a little resurgence. And I would love to dive into that. But that's, it's a lot of research and a lot of care and time needs to be put into that. So that's not something that I would just take on lightly, you know. But yeah, I read a lot, a lot of romance. A lot, a lot. That's when people are like, oh, how did you choose what genre to write? And I'm like, well, romance just felt like the most obvious choice because that's already primarily what I read. But there's a lot of Taylor Jenkins read, which is not romance, but just, you know, it's fun. All of her books are great and have that historical element that I love. So that's really what drew me in there in the first place. And then I read a lot of indie authors. I wouldn't say there's necessarily like one author. There's no author out there where I can say I've read their entire backlist. Because I'm just such a mood reader that I read one or two of their books and I'm like, okay, cool, on to the next. And then maybe I'll circle back in a couple years and read a couple more of their books. But yeah, I'm just kind of all over the place. I'll read anything. I'll read, I'll read monster smut. I'll read romantic suspense. I'll read all of it.

Carly Waters (24:38)

Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. Okay, so I want everybody to know how fast of a writer you are. You're pretty speedy. So walk us through what your drafting and writing process is like because it's a bit on the speedy side, which is maybe why self publishing spoke to you.

Cece Lira (24:53)

When, when it's speedy, it's speedy. Sometimes not so much. Sometimes I'm sitting here just like pulling my hair out because I can't think about what to write next. But once that story starts flowing, it's, it flows fast. I just, I mean, I, up until very recently, up until mid December, was working a full time job and I have a four and a half year old. So it's very much just writing whenever I can. A lot of times it's on my phone. I'm laying there like after my daughter's fallen asleep and I'm just laying in her room writing on my phone, or I'm killing time before a doctor's appointment or whatever. And even now that I've quit my job, I still have her around, so it's still a lot of just kind of squeezing it in whenever I can. But, yeah, once that story starts flowing, it's. It's good. I mean, I wrote Alive and Wells in a month, so just. Yeah, it. It plays. I've explained this to people before who. It's so wild to me how some people can't see a picture in their head, because for me, these are just playing essentially, like movies in my head, and I'm just transcribing whatever I see. Like, so that's why it's so fast once it starts really rolling. And then once in a while, it has to stop and buffer for a minute. I'm lost. But yeah, once it's rolling, I'm just sitting here, zoned right out, typing away.

Carly Waters (26:14)

So incredible. And I do find your writing very, very cinematic. Okay, well, let's. You touched on the previous job thread there. So I want to pull on that thread, which is talk to us about what it's like to have this kind of. You had a dual Persona for a while as writing smutty novels and then having a day job. So walk us through some of the stories behind having to navigate those two worlds.

Cece Lira (26:38)

I felt like I was joking constantly online about feeling like I was Bailey Hannah Montana, because I just had both these dual personalities. And nobody knew, which was. At first, I didn't tell anybody, and then I told my mom and she posted on Facebook as. As moms tend to do, you know. So then, you know, some people found out in my personal life, but I didn't have any of my co workers on Facebook or anything, so none of them knew. And even, you know, when I went to Calgary for that book signing or I went to Vegas, I was just.

Deanna Raybourn (27:12)

Like, it's a girls trip.

Cece Lira (27:13)

I'm going away for a girls trip this weekend. Didn't tell them anything. So it caught most of them off guard when I all of a sudden quit and told them why I was quitting. But I did get a little bit found out before that because I gave an author talk at our local library, and our local library was right next door to where my office was, and they had a big, huge poster with my face when you walk into the library. So I quickly found out which of my co workers frequent the library, because then they were. But they were good. It was not a very gossipy office, clearly, because they kept their mouths shut. But yeah, so it was kind of fun. And Then it was, maybe they didn't want fun.

Deanna Raybourn (27:57)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (27:57)

Maybe they didn't want out to be being like, what kind of things do you read? Okay. Maybe not what they thought that they would want to be told people, you know, tell people that they're reading.

Bianca Murray (28:06)

Yeah.

Cece Lira (28:06)

They don't want to talk about it either. Yeah.

Carly Waters (28:08)

At work.

Cece Lira (28:09)

Yeah, exactly.

Carly Waters (28:11)

So what is it like to be a full time author? What is it? How does it feel? Surreal.

Cece Lira (28:15)

Still. It's, it's so nice though. It's so nice to not have to feel like I'm juggling all the things and especially when it comes to my daughter now. Because before it would be like, okay, well I have to sit down and write at some point. And so sometimes that meant not getting to like hang out with her on a Saturday or something. Whereas now it's just, oh, okay, if she has something that she needs to go do. You know, Tuesday mornings she has gymnastics and that's fine. We can just go. And it's, I'm like, I'll write later or I'll write tomorrow. It's not obviously at this point I'm very close to a deadline. So that's a little different now for the next couple weeks. But outside of that, it's just nice to, to, yeah. Be able to just fit it in whenever I want and not not be trying to squeeze writing time in every single chance that I get. Every little bit of free time I get. So I get to enjoy my family and have better self care. Like just relax and read and do things for myself.

Bailey Hanna (29:24)

So.

Bianca Murray (29:24)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (29:24)

And claim it as a career.

Cece Lira (29:25)

Right.

Carly Waters (29:25)

Because when you're juggling multiple things, you know, it's like, how many directions can I possibly be pulled in?

Cece Lira (29:31)

And I get to just talk to people about like romance books. And I, when I was sending voice notes to my one friend and I was like, how great is this that we get to talk about sex and this is our job. That's fantastic. We get to and brainstorm a spicy scene and say that we're working.

Carly Waters (29:52)

Which you are. Yeah, I know. It's always, I always have a smile on my face when I'm pitching romance, especially spicy romance. I'm like, it's my job just being like to convince people that they need to put down everything else they're doing and read this spicy novel. That's a great thing to call my job.

Cece Lira (30:10)

Yeah, absolutely.

Carly Waters (30:12)

I want to go back to kind of the world building piece because it seems like for you it is so natural, you know, the way that you are able to Kind of build up this world and how it seems so real to you in your own mind. Like walk us through how you consciously think about the world creation and the scenes that you're creating, you know, the sensory experience that you're trying. Trying to create for the reader. Just walk us through that, that world building consciousness that you have.

Cece Lira (30:36)

Yeah, so I mean, like I said, it's really. It plays like a movie in my head and I just kind of write it just like that. And I know a lot of authors utilize things like Pinterest and that sort of stuff to get some ideas, but this is just, it's just a lot of my favorite places. And so it doesn't take much for me to visualize that and then put it on paper. And a lot of the more detailed description or kind of more flowery language will come in during edits, of course. But yeah, it just comes really easy to me because I'm taking parts of my real world and my real world experience and just putting it onto page. So I think I might have a harder time. And it's also why I'm not a big fantasy writer because I can't visualize that so much. It's not when it's not real and it's not what I can look out my window and see.

Carly Waters (31:33)

So yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I think. It's just so picturesque and beautiful and you're like, I just look out my window and this is what I see.

Cece Lira (31:40)

So it's great, it's fantastic.

Carly Waters (31:43)

Yeah, we get to be transported to your world and your life. All right, so let's walk everybody through the series itself. So we have our Wells Ranch series, we have our Alive and well. So just for anybody that doesn't know, we ended up selling the self published titles to Ballantine, Bantam, Dell. They immediately were able to have the ebooks available for the first two books and then we have then since published the paperback editions of Alive and Wells. That one came out on March 23rd. Seeing Red came out on April 29th. So those physical books are available. And the very exciting thing which, you know, nobody has read outside of the beta readers and the early readers is Change of Heart. So I know that so far you've been, as I said, talking with a lot of people who have read the books in the series. So what is it going to be like for people to read Change of Heart after they have been waiting for months and months living with the first two books in the series, now they get book three.

Cece Lira (32:39)

They have been Waiting so long, so, so long, which was kind of part of the quick rollout for the first two, was to not keep them waiting even longer, because initially they thought they would be getting change of heart in September of 2024. So it's a long wait, and I'm not gonna lie, I was a little worried when the arcs first started going out that I was like, oh, are they gonna be, like, underwhelmed because they've waited so long? But that has definitely not been the case. Everyone is just so thrilled to finally be getting it, so. And now we won't have to wait quite as long for the last two books in the series.

Carly Waters (33:22)

So, yeah, the arc came into my office this week, and I was showing it on socials this week. As you guys know, we record ahead of time, but, yeah, I'm just. I'm so excited for everybody.

Cece Lira (33:32)

I know.

Carly Waters (33:33)

You know, everybody. You know, you don't want to pick a favorite, of course. It's like, how do you pick a favorite child or a favorite horse or a favorite animal? Like, you know, anything. Right. Like, for a lot of people, I think this might be, you know, their favorite thus far. You know, like, you're going deep. We have, again, these recurring characters. We have the second chance romance and such familiarity already with the world. So I think people are just gonna, like, can't wait to plug back into it. So I can't wait for everybody to. To have access to.

Cece Lira (33:59)

Seems to be a lot of people so far from the early reviews, seem to be switching teams, and they are Team Denver now.

Carly Waters (34:08)

Yeah.

Bailey Hanna (34:09)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (34:09)

It's like, oh, the little brother's all grown up.

Bianca Murray (34:11)

Right.

Cece Lira (34:12)

Right. And a lot of people, honestly, have loved him since the very first book, too, just because of that playful goofiness. You know, a lot of people love that. We love the golden retriever type hero. So, yeah, a lot of people have been waiting very sort of impatiently sometimes for.

Carly Waters (34:32)

For history gems, I'm sure. Yeah, I wouldn't be impatient is what everybody is. That means everybody's excited to read it. Yes. Yes. In the best way possible. Yeah. Is there any last. I usually like to end off with, you know, is there any, like, writing advice that you really want to give to the, you know, the newbie writers or the aspiring authors that are listening to our show? Is there any kind of words of wisdom you want to leave everybody with?

Cece Lira (34:54)

Just write the book. Just write it. I wasted so much of my life just not. Or starting them and getting so lost in all of the things that you're told. You should do. You know, you should have all of these characters already all mapped out and you should know everything about them before you start the book or you should plot it right down to the scene. And that doesn't necessarily work for everybody. So I think you need to just put all that aside and just sit down and write the book. And it might not be good. Like I said, the first one I wrote, not great, but just, just do it. And then you're flexing that writing muscle and it just gets easier and easier.

Carly Waters (35:42)

So, yeah, no, it's incredible advice. That's just what we have to do, right? It doesn't. Nobody's gonna do it but you. You just gotta sit down and do the thing.

Cece Lira (35:51)

Yeah, yeah. If you don't do it, nobody's gonna tell that story. So just do it.

Bailey Hanna (35:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Carly Waters (35:57)

Well, great advice. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Bailey, talking about your experiences. I know we have a number of authors that always ask the question about self publishing versus traditional, you know, can you have it all? And I think the answer is yes, you can have it all if you want to have it all. As long as you're writing books that really connect with readers, which is obviously what your wonderful Wells Ranch series does. So I'm thrilled to be your agent, thrilled to be working on this, and so excited to see what everybody says about change of heart because I know it's a smash hit. So congratulations.

Cece Lira (36:25)

Thank you. I can't wait for everybody to read it.

Carly Waters (36:28)

All right, bye everyone. Part of our life's journey is experiences and working on our self betterment. An experience I've been counting down the days to is taking our kids to France this summer. I've never met an almond croissant I didn't like. And I can't wait to show the kids a new part of the world. Plus, I can't wait for them to see what their French language education can do for them. Them and the doors it can open. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. And it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. My husband and I are going to focus on Rosetta Stone together, so we're ready for vacation and to set a good example for the kids culturally. Because learning the language of where you're traveling to is a sign of respect. We can't always assume people speak English. They are trusted experts. For 30 years, with millions of users in 25 languages offered, that's Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, Polish, and many more. There's fast language acquisition. Rosetta Stone truly immerses you in so many ways. There are no English translations, so you really learn to speak, listen and think in that language. It's an intuitive process picking up language naturally, first with words, then phrases, then sentences. They have speech recognition, a built in true accent feature giving you feedback on your pronunciation. It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. It's convenient with flexible learning anytime, anywhere. Learn on the go with the app or your desktop at your schedule. There's amazing value. That's lifetime membership for all 25 languages. For all trips in languages needed in life. That's lifetime access to 25 language courses Rosetta Stone offers for 50% off. It's a steal. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now the shit about writing. Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosett and start learning today.

Bianca Murray (38:21)

Today's guest is the author of the award winning New York Times best selling Lady Julia Gray series as well as the USA Today best selling and Edgar Award nominated Veronica Speedwell mysteries and several standalone works. It's my pleasure to welcome back Deanna Raybor. Diana, welcome back to the show.

Deanna Raybourn (38:41)

Thank you so much for having me. I love that we're both wearing red lipstick today.

Bianca Murray (38:45)

I know, right? We've got to channel all the fierce female energy we possibly can in this world and I find nothing does it better than red lipstick.

Deanna Raybourn (38:54)

Preach.

Bianca Murray (38:54)

Yeah. Okay, so for those of you watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the book cover. It's amazing. Kills well with others. And this is the highly anticipated sequel to Killers of a Certain Age, which was a contemporary feminist tale brimming with acerbic wits, featuring modern heroines who prove that age can be an asset in a world that often values youth over wisdom. It became a blockbuster success. It received rave reviews from everyone. It was featured in two on air recommendations on NBC's Today. A GMA buzz pick selection, landed myriad best of the year lists, won the illustrious Barry Award for best thriller and received four starred reviews from major publishing trade athletes.

Deanna Raybourn (39:44)

Sounds great when you say it like that, right?

Bianca Murray (39:47)

I'm like feeling like we need trumpets and and drums as we just read this, which is amazing. So the book that we're discussing today, as I said, is the sequel. Let me read the flat copy for our listeners so that they have context. After more than a year of laying low, Billy, Helen, Mary Alice and Natalie are called back into action. They have enjoyed their time off, but the lack of excitement is starting to chafe. A professional killer can only take so many watercolor classes and yoga sessions without itching to strangle someone. Literally. Okay, now I'm starting to suspect I may be a closeted serial killer. But anyway, when they receive a call from the head of the elite assassin organization known as the Museum, they are ready to tackle the greatest challenge of their careers. Someone on the inside has compiled the list of important kills committed by museum agents connected to a single shadowy figure. An Eastern European gangster with an iron fist, some serious criminal ambition, and a tendency to kill first and ask questions later. This new nemesis is murdering agents who got in the way of their power hungry plans. And the aging quartet of killers is next. Together, the foursome embark on a wild ride across the globe on the double mission of rooting out the museum's mole and hunting down the gangster who seems know their next move before they make it. Their enemy is unlike any they faced before, and it'll take all their killer experience to get out of this mission alive. Okay, so before we dive into this mission, this mission, you see, I am a secret serial killer.

Deanna Raybourn (41:23)

I'm a little bit nervous right now. Beyond.

Bianca Murray (41:26)

I'm pretty thrilled actually. This is amazing. Okay, so before we dive into the book itself, I would love to pick your brain about process because you have published dozens of books, many of which, like dozens and dozens and dozens of books.

Deanna Raybourn (41:43)

And we're up to like 20. We're up to like 20. I mean, don't over 20.

Bianca Murray (41:47)

Yeah, well, I mean there's novels and all kinds of other things.

Deanna Raybourn (41:51)

I forgot about the novellas.

Bailey Hanna (41:52)

Yeah, there you go.

Bianca Murray (41:53)

See, I know more so. And many of these are in series form, which we know it's so hard to publish because, you know, we have emerging writers on the podcast all the time going, I'm writing a series. And we go, listen, it's not going to sell as a series unless the first book does really well. So maybe don't plan it as a series because it may not turn out that way. So have you found that the writing has gotten easier with each book or are they still tough books that make you feel like a rookie all over again?

Deanna Raybourn (42:25)

Well, there's a special challenge to writing the first book because you're world building. You're creating a universe that has not existed in your imagination before. You're creating characters that have not existed before. You're trying to give them the right sort of problems, the right sort of plot, and you have to do it in a way that you're absolutely right. You cannot assume that you're going to have 10 books, 12 books, 15 books to tell their stories. You need to assume you're going to have one. But you also want to leave the door open, because if that first book does well, then, yes, the publisher will come back and say, hey, you did this thing. You did it well, people liked it. Let's do it again. And you have to figure out how to do it, but in a way that's fresh, so that people are going to want to come back to a new story with these characters. So you can't tip your entire hand in the first book, even though you're dying to, because you know it may be your only chance to spend time with these characters. So it is the most intense and most maddening tightrope walk ever because you're trying to strike a balance between those two things. This could be a one and done forever book, or it could be the start of something beautiful. And you never, ever know when you're writing it which it's going to be.

Bianca Murray (43:39)

And leaving that door open is so important because I get so frustrated when a book becomes a series, right? A trilogy and book two, you can see the author had no plans to write a sequel. They are sitting there and, I mean, as writers, we make up all the time, but they are making up up, like, really badly. And, you know, so I think it is important to go, okay, well, I'm writing the one book standalone, potentially, but like you say, keeping that door open so that there's a character here who, ooh, they may be interesting to bring back in later, etc. So, yeah, I really like what you said there. Are you a plotter or a panther? Deanna, Like, I'd love to know what your process looks like from the second you get an idea until you hand it in to either your agent or your editor.

Deanna Raybourn (44:27)

I am an organized pantser because of the fact that I write mysteries and thrillers. And I do think there are structural differences between writing mysteries and thrillers and writing basically any other kind of fiction. You do have to have more of a structure going into it, I think. At least I do, because you have to know what pieces of information need to be doled out at what point in order to make sense for your sleuths or your characters who are trying to unravel whatever's going on, to move from point A to point G. Well, at some point you have to give them a D. You know, at some point you have to give them an E. You have to. You have to figure out how you're going to get them. You know, where's the trail of breadcrumbs going to go? Now, that trail can wind around a little bit. You can have some false starts and some dead ends, but you have to have a general idea, I think, of where you're going. Having said that, I have, upon occasion, like with one of my Veronica Speedwell novels, a Grave Robbery, which came out last year, I turned that into my editor and said, hey, can I have this back? And she said, sure. Why? I said, because the murderer is wrong and I need to rewrite the last half of the book. And she said, can you do it in three weeks? And I said, yes, I can. And so she gave it back to me and I rewrote it and I had a different murderer because I felt like, ooh, it's going to be a better book. We're all basically doing a choose your own adventure the whole time we're writing because there are limitless possibilities for every decision that we make, and every choice that we make is going to lead us down a different path. There are so many variables. And because of that, I tend to push myself a little bit tight on my deadlines because I want to be able to make decisions quickly. And I won't do that if I know I've got six months to write the book. I will start meandering off and I will start exploring options, and I don't need to be doing that. So a lot of times I wait until I'm absolutely just white knuckled with fear going, shit, this deadline is way too close now. And then I go, okay, but at least I make. I work very well under pressure and I make very fast decisions and I commit to them and I write them through and. And we're good to go. Before I sit down to write the book, after I've spent some time just basically magpying, where I read the things that I want to read for fun, I watch the things that I want to watch for fun. And I gather little bits and pieces, little inspirations. May be pictures, they may be snippets of songs, they may be just random ideas that pop in my head. Put all these things down in notebooks. And then just before I'm ready to start to write, I will sit down with giant sheets of newsprint. You can buy them here in the States in great big pads at the office supply store. And they're dirt cheap. I get those and some markers and I sit down and I map out by hand. It's very stream of consciousness. It may be an actual, like, little graphic design representation, maybe a mind map, but it's going to be something that is very much hand to paper about creating the plot and how these characters are going to interact with each other and how I'm going to get and. And usually it's only the first half of the book that I do that with and I will procrastinate the second half and go, oh, it's probably fine. I'll get to it. And then I'll sit down and start writing. And I usually don't write. My sweet spot is about five to seven pages because I type very fast. I always, I write directly into the computer word processor. I am a Gen X child. I learned how to type on a typewriter in school that had blacked out keys. So, you know, that's, that's just, that's my default. That's where I actually do the writing. So I brainstorm by hand, but I write on a keyboard and then I just, you know, no to the grindstone, keep going through. And then about halfway through the book, it'll hit that soggy middle and I'll hate it and I'll hate myself and I'll think, this book is. I will never write a decent book again as long as I live. That Edgar nomination was a joke. What were they thinking? I need to send my Berry Award back. You know, that's the moment that, you know, oh, this is what it feels like to really be a writer. And what keeps you coming back is you have to put your ass in the chair because you have a deadline, because you're a professional, because you signed your name to a contract saying, I will have this book ready for you on this date, and that's what you do. And so I turn the book in and it is always turned in, like on a Friday at 5 o'clock, right before the deadline. And then I'll get it back within a few weeks, usually no more than six, from my editor with her notes. We'll have a little zoom call. We'll brainstorm.

Cece Lira (49:03)

It's.

Deanna Raybourn (49:03)

My editor is amazing. And so when Michelle and I talk and we have our zoom calls, it's more like a pajama party. Like, we're just having fun. We throw things at the wall to see what will stick. And we'll be like, oh, my God, but what if this person's been dead all along or, you know, and we'll just, we'll have the time and then I'll go away and I'll take a few weeks to revise it and then I hand it back to her and. And usually at that point it goes into production formally. So it goes to the copy editor, it goes to the proofreader. And you know, that's my chance to, to panic a little bit more. But usually at that point I'm, I'm pretty comfortable with where it is. And I long ago reconciled myself to the fact that if you were of a mind to, you could tinker with a book from now to the end of eternity. And you can't do that. It's got to go into production. You just have to cut the cord.

Bianca Murray (49:49)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I find I do my best editing after I've pressed sync to my agent. And then I'll be like, every time. And I'll be like, it's great, it's great. And then I send it to. And then I'm like five hours later. I think she now knows. Don't open anything from me until at least two days later because it's going to be a waste. And I'm like, oh my God, send it back.

Deanna Raybourn (50:09)

Genius. I need to start doing that. That I need to tell my editor, okay, when I send you stuff on a Friday, don't open it.

Bianca Murray (50:15)

Don't read it over the weekend.

Deanna Raybourn (50:16)

Don't open it. No, leave it. Let it marinate.

Bianca Murray (50:19)

But I love what you said as well about causality when it comes to thrillers because we often speak about plot points that the dominoes need to be tipping. You cannot have satellite plot points where this is kind of happening independently of this, Independently of this. While your character is like la la la. Especially in thrillers, in terms of the structure of a thriller, it needs to be this domino tips, which leads to the character doing this, which leads to that, etc. And so that causality is so important. You need to understand that one character doing something leads the plot down the line. It gives it that forward thrust. And we often see emerging writers sort of have more satellite plot points because they know that they have to torture their characters. So they torture them with a terrible mother in law and maybe a bad day at the job and maybe something happening to the car on the way home. But none of those things are linked. It doesn't show any kind of causality. So not just for thriller writers, always remember that, that causality there.

Deanna Raybourn (51:20)

Know where I think that comes from? Part of the part of the difficulty is I read an article ages ago which talked about a study that they did. And I want to say it was Harvard, but it might not have been Harvard, where they were trying to kind of map the neural activity of a novelist. And what they figured out is that the closest equivalent to writing a novel is composing a symphony. That you're trying to hold all of these different melody and counter melody lines in your head at the same time, and you're trying to weave them all together because they are always connected. Every part of it is connected to the rest of it. Even if you don't necessarily hear how the woodwind is influencing the timpani, it is. And they're always going to be connected, and you have to pay attention to that. And I think that that's the most challenging thing. When we're very early on in our work, you know, in. In exercising this craft and developing this craft, I think that's the hardest thing to do is to realize that there is always that sense of interconnectivity because you are always composing one thing that has to be harmonious. By the time you get to the end of it, it has to make sense why this thing was there. Because otherwise it's just self indulgence.

Bianca Murray (52:40)

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So just when it comes to an idea, Diana, do you bounce that off your agent or your editor first when you get an idea? Or are you like. No, I trust my gut. I know this is a good idea. And I will bounce ideas off of her later once the book is read. Or is there ever times when you like. I'm thinking of three ideas at the moment. Which one do you think think is the most marketable?

Deanna Raybourn (53:04)

I think it comes down to what I want to do the most. And so if there's something that I'm very much interested in that I really want to do, I will follow my gut. And I'm to the position in my career now where I can sit down with my agent, my editor, the editorial director. And, you know, we have. We have lunch every year or two. All of us will meet up in New York City and we'll have lunch together. Last year, we had what we're referring to as the teabag summit, because there was a teabag wrapper on the table. And I jotted notes on it as to which books are coming out in which years, because we were like, okay, if I do this book at this, you know, for this year, what do I want to do next? And so I can just give them an idea and say, this is what I want to do. And they'll either say, great, we love that. Run with it. Or they'll say, girl, think again. And because I pitched three ideas to them last year alone, that they were like, oh, not the right time, or not the right book or whatever. So I've learned not to get too attached to a specific idea. And I've also learned, too, that I'm a Gemini. So the bright and shiny thing that has just popped up in my head is always the most enticing, but it's not always the idea that's going to have legs. So sometimes it.

Bailey Hanna (54:15)

It.

Deanna Raybourn (54:16)

You know, the. The bright and shiny just needs to hang around for a minute. You need to appreciate it, but then you need to see if the luster dims. And then does it have stamina? Does it have staying power?

Cece Lira (54:28)

Does.

Deanna Raybourn (54:28)

Is this idea the one that's going to keep coming back to me in that little liminal state when you're just wa. Up in the morning? Is that the idea that I'm thinking about? Because if it is, then that's the one that I need to go to the map for.

Bianca Murray (54:41)

Yeah. Then. Then, you know, it got legs. The great thing with you writing these series and doing other things in between is you get to cheat on your series character. Because I actually had this conversation with Allegra Goodman, who wrote Isola, and we were talking about how she was writing two books at once, because she started off going, no, this is the book I need to write. And then she got this other idea, and so she started cheating on her main project with her side project. And then she was. Just gave into it and was like, I'm writing two at once. And I think if you write a series, there's a potential that you get, I don't know, frustrated with those same characters or, I don't know, you just want to flex your creative muscles. So I love that in between the series because, I mean, one of them has almost been going for 10 years, hasn't it? It?

Cece Lira (55:28)

Yeah.

Deanna Raybourn (55:28)

I'm writing the 10th book in the series now.

Bianca Murray (55:30)

Yeah.

Deanna Raybourn (55:30)

Yeah.

Bianca Murray (55:30)

You know, so. But in between, you get to do other things. And I think that perhaps is what stops the stagnation, or you getting annoyed with one particular story.

Deanna Raybourn (55:39)

Absolutely. That definitely fuels creativity. The very first editor I ever had, when I started the Julia Gray series, I got three books into it. I was really hitting my stride with it, and she said, okay, now you have to write something different. She said, you have to do one book outside the series before we'll let you come back to the series again. And I said, why? And she said, because you always need, need to take a break. She said, about every three to four books, whatever you're doing, however successful the series is, if you can manage to do something else, it will refresh you, it will refill that well, because you're going to have. You can't. You don't have an opportunity then to get lazy or to get relaxed or to just phone it in. You've got to start all over again. Because when you go back to that, you know, for me, when I go back to those big sheets of newsprint and I've got to start building a world all over again, there's very much that kind of baby writer, beginner. Oh, my God, what am I doing? Feeling to this, where you're like, did I tap all the good stuff? Did I just use it all up and do I still have a book? And it's ridiculous because of course you have new stuff in you. There's always the debate where people on social media will be like, oh, yeah, I have a great idea for a book. I just need to find a writer to write it for me. And I'm like, ideas are not the hard part. I can get six good book ideas while I'm brushing my teeth. Ideas are never the hard part. If you're a creative person, ideas are your currency. That they're, you know, they're just what you trade in all the time. You can't turn that off, that. Because that's the weird part of our brains, right? That's the part that's always running, always putting pieces together, always drawing connections between odd little things going. It's the part of us that's always playing the what if game. And so, you know, being able to indulge, that is such a fresh beginner mindset. And it's so terrifying. And especially, you know, when I wrote Killers of a Certain Age, I had never written contemporary, I had never written a thriller, I had never written four main characters instead of one. So I was out of my comfort zone every possible way. Like, maybe if I'd sat down to write the book in Spanish, it would have been more terrifying. But, like, beyond that, this was the scariest thing I could do as a writer. But then when I went back to my Veronica Speedwell books, it was like, oh, oh, this is comfortable. But I have new ideas. I have some new and exciting things I want to do here.

Bianca Murray (58:12)

I think it's so important that we keep challenging ourselves creatively because I think it's so easy to become complacent and be like, oh, I'm in my, you know, comfort zone here. But, you know, I've gone from historical fiction, book club fiction to fantasy. A group of witches in their 80s bringing down the patriarchy. And now I've just written a closed room murder mystery with choose your own adventure chapters. And each time I do it, I'm like, why the hell do I do this? But it keeps me, like, energized creatively. And challenging yourself is so important, right?

Deanna Raybourn (58:47)

Absolutely. You know, my husband is the one who pointed out to me ages ago that I will always choose the thing that scares me the most with regard to my work. And he said, you know why you do it, don't you? And I said, no, because it's. It's insane. You know, it. It makes you so terrified, so angsty, so anxious. And I said, no, why would I do this to me? And he said, because the rest of your life is happening happy. The rest of your life is dependable. You know, he's my college sweetheart. We've been married almost 35 years. Our daughter's amazing. We have an adorable little grandson. You know, I get along great with my parents. I have, like, a really boring, lovely, wonderful personal life. There's no drama and no adventure there because it's happy and it's settled and it's committed. So I am always going out on that little, you know, high wire above the crocodile, pit it with my work, because that's where I get the adrenaline rush, is by scaring the bejesus out of myself and terrorizing myself to say, can I do this? Can I do this? Can I do this? Yeah, I can do this. But it's gonna scare me to my bones. I am going to chill my own marrow while I'm trying to do it. And that's twisted, but it's also really fun.

Bianca Murray (60:10)

It's part of the process, and it's great. Keeps the adrenaline going. So something I want to talk about as well is so emerging authors often approach writing where it's like, in compartments. It's like, here is my bit of dialogue. Then here is my scene setting. Then here is my description. Then here is my dialogue. I want to read two pages from chapter one just to show you how much sentences can do at the line level, how much work they can do to combine all of that in terms of a tapestry. Not like dialogue here. Description here. Just listen here, Billy. You have a run in your stocking again. Helen's voice is cool as she hands over an unopened package of fishnets. Have my spares. Billy has been in this position before and knows better than to argue with Helen's eye for detail. Just like the last time time, billie says with a grin. She changes stockings and shimmies back into her costume. I think I'm going to have to burn my feminist card when this is done, billie says as she tweaks her bunny ears in the mirror. Three months of working undercover at the Playboy Club and her blue satin ears are still a constant source of irritation. Mary Alice, sitting next to her in the dressing room, purses her mouth as she flicks black eyeliner into a sharp wing. She moves back, admiring the effect. I kind of like it. That's because you don't need to stuff your damn bra, natalie counters from the other side of the room. Okay, so that is just like it's a few paragraphs. We have got setting in terms of where they are. We have got character dynamics in terms of one is always noticing things and always has spares, whereas the other one doesn't. And you've got the dynamic where the one automatically defers to the other. We've got context. They've been there for three months. We know what they're wearing. They're in their bunny outfits. We've got the dialogue. And that is in like three paragraphs. So, Deanna, your advice to our listeners in terms of doing this, do you feel like this is something you've gotten better with over the years? Do you feel like it's something that with practice you can do it? It comes in the revising. Or is this now just so intuitive to you at this point that it's not even something you think of that it's intuitive.

Deanna Raybourn (62:27)

I don't even think about it. And the section that you read that is actually a call back to the opening. It's also a callback to the opening scene of the very first book. So it does accomplish a lot in those few sentences. A lot of it comes with experience. I I have read and unfortunately not continue to read probably three or four books in the last week because I started them. And the first half, I don't know, 7, 10 pages is nothing but info dump. It's giving me information about this character in dense prose. You know, she did this, then her husband died and so now she's got I don't care. I don't care about this person. And that information does not make me care about her. I don't want to sit there and wade through all of that, you know, the editor at Penguin who acquired the Veronica Speedwell series. Series. I'm world building. This is a new series that I'm starting. You know, I'm, I'm trying to figure out who these characters are. I turned in the first book and she said, I love it. She said, it's a little bit too long. And these 50 pages right here, you don't need them. And she said, that entire scene was for you. You were figuring out who they were. The reader does not need that information. Cut it. And I did. She was 100% right. That information was just me figuring out, oh, oh, who's Veronica, who's Stoker? How are they. They relating to each other? I pulled it out, tightened it up, gave them action. Instead, it was a completely different scene, a completely different beginning to this series. It was dynamic. It pulled people in, made them want to know, you know, because in a weird way, and this metaphor just occurred to me, and I'm sure someone else has thought of it and it's not very well thought out at all, but I'm going to try this on the fly. If you think of writing a novel as a striptease because you're revealing things to the reader, burlesque is a lot sexier than walking onto stage naked. Okay, if you come out and you just do a little shimmy and a little bit of the robe, you know, comes off your shoulder and you see the corset. Oh, that's intriguing. What else is there to see? Oh, well, here are some stockings. Oh, I'm just going to roll down a little bit of. But, okay, well, show me more. Show me more. If you walk out and you're buck ass naked on that stage, people are going to look at you for 40 seconds ago. Yeah, I know as much as your gynecologist now. Thanks. And they're going to leave. They're not interested. They're not invested. You haven't really created any sense of mystery, any sense of, you know, come with me, little wanderer. I have something to show you. You haven't conjured magic for them. You've just laid out a dossier. Effect facts. And nobody wants to read that. Not when they're after fiction. They want. They want to be taken by the hand. Because we're all still those little kids who are entranced and enchanted by story. We want story to conjure a world for us. And we want writers to be those. Those fairy godparents who are giving us that little bit of magic every single time. We don't want it all up front. There's no fun, there's no mystery. There's no challenge to that.

Bailey Hanna (65:40)

That.

Bianca Murray (65:41)

Deanna, this discussion has been amazing. Our time is now up. I had a million more questions, but we'll have to wait for our next interview. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for all these incredible insights for our listeners. We're linking to the book on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Kills well with others. Get it there. Supports an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. Thanks so much, Deanna.

Deanna Raybourn (66:04)

Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Bianca Murray (66:05)

Hi, everyone. Welcome to March's content prompts segment with the fabulous Emily Summer from East City Bookshop. Hi, Emily.

Bailey Hanna (66:13)

Hi, Bianca.

Bianca Murray (66:14)

Welcome back. And thank you for working with me to maintain excellent Canadian American relationships.

Bailey Hanna (66:21)

We will do what we can. We will keep trying, even if the powers that be here at least want to stand in our way.

Bianca Murray (66:28)

Yeah. We will do it on an interpersonal level because writing is about empathy. It's about building bridges. It's about reaching across cross borders, and we will keep maintaining those relationships. Okay, so here we go. Here is our first comp request.

Deanna Raybourn (66:44)

Hi, my name is Rachel.

Bailey Hanna (66:46)

Thank you for listening to my question about my memoir. The closest book I've read that resembles thematically my memoir is Che Guevara's Motorcycle Diaries, where he spends several months riding through South America with his friend and he become socially, politically, ideologically aware of.

Deanna Raybourn (67:13)

The plight of his countrymen. It changes his life trajectory afterwards.

Bailey Hanna (67:20)

The only difference is I'm a woman, I'm black, and I went through Africa.

Deanna Raybourn (67:23)

Not, not South America.

Bianca Murray (67:25)

I have not found a calm that.

Deanna Raybourn (67:29)

Has been published in the past three to five years.

Bailey Hanna (67:32)

And I'm hoping you will have better.

Deanna Raybourn (67:34)

Ideas than I do.

Bailey Hanna (67:37)

Hi, Rachel. Thank you so much for calling in and leaving this recording. So I'm curious to know where you went in Africa and what you were doing there, what the purpose of your travel and trip was and how it changed your life when you got back. But in the absence of those details, here are a couple of recommendations. So I was trying, based on what you said, to think of either activism memoirs or memoirs about people's paths to activism or travel memoirs or ideally a blend of both. So my first suggestion is in the former, the activism category. And that is a book that I read in 2020 or 2021 called I'm still Here by Austin Channing Brown. And it's her memoir of being a black woman growing up in the, like, the white evangelical space and her experiences there. But it did very well. I think it would be a really good comp, but it doesn't have that I'm I'm traveling and and have been radicalized or changed my life. So it doesn't have that aspect of it. One that might be closer to that is called how to Live Free in a Dangerous World by Shayla Lawson. And I know less about that one, but it might have more of the like the story aspect and the experience aspect might be a little bit closer. But look at those. And if you want to crowdsource on our social media pages to give some more details and see if anybody has any more specific suggestions, please do. And good luck.

Bianca Murray (69:05)

Yeah, just a reminder here. So this will air at the last Monday of every month and then on the following Tuesday we will do a post about it so that if you want to weigh in with suggestions, that's where you will do it. Okay, Emily, here is our second one. Hi team.

Bailey Hanna (69:22)

Today I'm asking a comp question. The piece that I'm working on is a YA sci fi medical fantasy. The premise is that my character gets abducted by a medical research facility and experiments are done on him to give him superhuman powers. The tone of the book is quite sarcastic when he's feeling comfortable, but there is a lot of fear and anger as well as he tries to get revenge on those that did it to him as well as try to integrate into a society of kind of murderous other human experiments. For some reason he's special and more powerful than others, but nobody knows why except for the scientists that did it to him. So there's also a lot of self discovery and kind of mystery that goes on as well because they know something about him that he doesn't. Other comps that I considered but that are quite older is very much the Maximum Ride series as well as the Laurian Legacies series. That's the I am number four books and I'm actually a little bit new to sci fi, don't read a ton of it, so I'm hoping that you can help me with any of those comps. Thank you so much. So I'm so glad you mentioned the Maximum Ride and I am number four books because that immediately gave me a direction to go in and I always need help with the direction on the the YA fantasy that is not my natural wheelhouse, but I always try and do my best. So the two things that I thought of initially are Graceling by Kristin Cashore and the Scythe series by Neil Schusterman, but my wonderful colleague at East City Bookshop, Amy Andrews, is our children's and Young adult buyer. I'm the adult book buyer. She focuses on kids and ya. And Amy reminded me that Neal Shusterman's most recent book, All Better now, might be a better fit. So it's newer, it won't be as big. I think that could fit as a better comp. And that is about a global pandemic where if you don't die from the disease, you become happy all the time. And it there are several characters. There is sort of like a like people in tech, people in science, so it would have that in common. And lots of the self discovery theme that might work as well. Amy also suggested Snow Globe by an author whose last name is Park. That also is going to have that self discovery aspect and it's going to have a science bend to it as well. Although this one is post sort of a climate apocalypse. And the city center, I think, which is the titular snow globe, is climate controlled. And so it's fine. Everything's fine in the city center and it's fine. It's livable and it's run by actors who are experiencing, acting out their lives there outside the city. It is not climate controlled. People are living in disaster and are laborers and it has sort of that political intrigue and adventure that might also. So thank you to Amy for giving us some better comps.

Bianca Murray (72:04)

Awesome, Emily. Thank you. Here is number three.

Bailey Hanna (72:08)

Hi Emily, I'm looking for a comp for my paranormal romance. It's not a cutesy rom com, but rather darker and more sinister in tone. Allie Simmons can see ghosts. As a medium who lives across from a cemetery, she learned to ignore the lingering dead. That is, until the ghost of Rhett Silas begins haunting her. When a client requests that Ally visit a house where a multiple homicide occurred, a violent ghostly encounter forces her to ask Rhett for help, breaking one of her most fundamental do not engage with a ghost. And yet Allie finds herself slipping into a daily routine with him. Every touch drives away the loneliness she never realized she felt. Every kiss blurs the inconvenient line between life and death until they take things too far. To clear her head, she tackles a client's request and stumbles into Jade Davis, another person who can see ghosts and who can see right through what's happening between Ally and Rhett. Ellie knows it's wrong. The bruises all over her body are proof enough without Jay's constant badgering. The longer Rhett refuses to move on, the harder it will be for him to resolve his unfinished business. And the longer Allie waits, the more she understands she isn't just flirting with a ghost, she's flirting with her own death. Okay, I'm so glad that you clarified that it was dark and sinister because otherwise the ghosty romance might have made me go straight to Ashley Poston's the Dead Roman Romantics. But that is clearly not the vibe here. So not a comp. So no Ashley Poston, although she sells very well for us. So if anybody does have a ghosty or sort of supernatural rom com, look at her books instead. I immediately thought of a book that is very buzzy right now in the indie bookstore scene. It's not out yet, but I expect that it will get a lot of attention when it does come out, which I think is in May. And it's a book called Aftertaste by Daria Lavall. It is upmarket literary fiction but with a real paranormal bend. And the aftertaste of the title is a young chef who is driven to become a chef because he realizes that he has the ability to connect with ghosts through taste. When he is around a ghost, he takes a dish that is the living survivors dish that brings that ghost back to them. It's their mem. So he's tasting memories basically and it gets pretty dark and there is a romance and there is some real danger that comes with his gifts and the romance that he pursues as a result. So I definitely urge you to check out Aftertaste. I think it's going to do really well. It was all over our American Booksellers Association's Winter Institute a couple of weeks ago. And then I thought of two mysteries that are not your typical detective mysteries because they feature laypeople who have special abilities and can communicate with the dead. And the first is Shudder by Ramona Emerson. And in that book the main character is a forensic photographer and while she's photographing crime scenes, she is able to communicate with the ghost ghosts of the victims and that helps lead her to other clues and to solve the crime. And then I also thought about a series that I've mentioned here before because I like I'm such a big fan. And it's the Cash Black Bear series by Marcy Rendon. And Cash is a former foster child young native woman who helps out the local sheriff through her visions and she has visions that have always given her an edge. So I think both of those might work. But the one that I think is the most on point point is Aftertaste. So let's hope it does really well but doesn't become too big that you can't use it as a comp.

Bianca Murray (75:39)

Thank you, Emily. Okay, here's our fourth one.

Bailey Hanna (75:42)

Hello.

Deanna Raybourn (75:43)

I'm hoping you can help me with.

Bailey Hanna (75:44)

Comps for my debut memoir, great big Holes, where parents are supposed to be, with themes of family grief and transracial international adoption, with a supporting role for the family dog, Vaisty. Tenacious Aditi, born with a cleft lip and palate, had lived in an orphanage in India since birth.

Cece Lira (75:58)

Meanwhile, in Arizona with my husband and.

Bailey Hanna (75:59)

Our young son, I inherited great big holes of my own.

Deanna Raybourn (76:02)

With the deaths of both of my.

Bailey Hanna (76:03)

Parents, we traveled to India to adopt Aditi, but quickly found ourselves in way over our heads. Aditi was a trauma survivor and unfamiliar with the outside world.

Deanna Raybourn (76:11)

We made peace with the dog and the moon, visited the ER and survived.

Bailey Hanna (76:14)

Star of the week at school. And in between the heartbreaking realities, we also found tomato tornadoes of love. Our family dynamic reminds me so much.

Deanna Raybourn (76:21)

Of RJ Palacio's Wonder, but that's fiction and too big and too old.

Cece Lira (76:25)

I was also thinking of Dicul Chung's.

Bailey Hanna (76:27)

All you can ever know. Eleanor Brown's novel any other Family is another one that tackles the ethics and.

Deanna Raybourn (76:32)

Complex relationships in adoptive families. But it's not memoir.

Bailey Hanna (76:35)

Thank you so much for your help. I promise to pay it forward. Okay. So I say for sure to all you can ever know by Nicole Chung. As far as I'm concerned, that is the gold standard of memoirs about transracial adoption. And I think it's the right amount of success for a comp. It did very well, but it's not so big that it's ridiculous and it's a little bit older, but not so old. And especially in a special, like a pretty specialized field, I think that that should work and you should definitely mention it. Of course, I'm not an agent, so I don't know if it's really against the rules, but I think comping fiction can work if it gives you the right story and the right tone and the right vibe. I can see Bianca nodding, so we have a cosign there. So I think any other family that you mentioned could work too. And I will add to that the novel that kind of Mother by Ruman Alam. So he is. He is better known for his more recent books, but that kind of Mother came out right before Leave the world behind and it's about white parents who have adopted a black child. Very good literary fiction. I mean, he's wonderful. And as far as other memoirs go, I was trying to think of some that might not be exact parallels but would have some sort of complicating factor to the parenthood memoir angle, of which there are many. So the first one I'll suggest is called this Boy We Made by Taylor Harris. It's not about adoption. In fact, it's actually somewhat about genetics. But it is about balancing the struggles of motherhood with real medical challenges and medical mysteries, which I think could be any sort of complicating factor. The complication of adoption, the complication of being a different race from your parents and balancing it with that love and care and joy that come from parenthood. And along the same veins, I thought about Raising Raffi by Keith Gessen. This one might be a little bit more humorous than the others. That's my impression. I have not read that whole book. But he deals with the chaos of young parenthood through the early years of his son, Raffi, especially when the child might have something more going on that you're trying to figure out, get a hold of. So I would suggest those and the fact that you mentioned wonder and the family dynamics of Wonderful Make Me Love youe Family immediately, because the family dynamics in that book are just so sweet and special and fantastic.

Bianca Murray (78:55)

Thank you, Emily. Yeah, for our listeners, if you're writing memoir and you're doing comps, make sure one is a memoir and the other one can be fiction and you just position it. You can be like, picture a fictionalized version of X, Y and Z or the mother daughter relationships or the heartfelt rendering of this. And you can totally do that so long as your other comp definitely is a memoir. Okay, here's number five. Five.

Bailey Hanna (79:19)

Thank you for your amazing podcast and I hope you have comp ideas for me. My upmarket slash women's fiction manuscript is a bookended framed narrative where the present day protagonist returns to Maryland and tells the retrospective story of her adolescent journey.

Deanna Raybourn (79:35)

To move on after her best friend is murdered.

Bailey Hanna (79:39)

A brainy punk rocker in the 80s, she knows the killer is called as a witness in the court trial and.

Deanna Raybourn (79:44)

Forces herself to come to terms with.

Bailey Hanna (79:46)

Her identity after half her identity is gone. The intended audience is book club and those nostalgic for the 80s. The tone combines poignant grief ideas with relatable humor. I thought of beyond that, the sea.

Deanna Raybourn (80:00)

Courtroom tension of Miracle Creek and the.

Bailey Hanna (80:02)

Woven recollections and teen death in notes on your sudden disappearance. But would love better comp ideas.

Cece Lira (80:09)

Thank you.

Bailey Hanna (80:12)

Okay, so I love an 80s nostalgia piece, so you've got me right there. I love a brainy punk rocker, so I am here for it. I would say that Given your description, I would probably not use beyond that, the Sea, just because as soon as I hear that title, I think of World War II and sort of longer ago historical fiction. I think 80s can count as historical fiction now, but. But in my mind it doesn't. So that one conjures a more traditional vision of historical fiction. I see where you're going with Miracle Creek because of that blend of a mystery plus the personal story about figuring out your identity. But I think the best comp that you've mentioned is notes on your sudden disappearance. I think that is a great one because that is a book about dealing with grief after you've lost a huge part of yourself. But it also has that relatable humor and it has a lot of 90s nostalgia in it. So I think that one is perfect. And I love that book, so I love any excuse to talk about that book. Another one I thought of is it's probably a little bit too old and too big, but I wonder if Celeste Ng's Everything I Never told you'd might be a little bit of a good fit. Like Miracle Creek that has a mystery, but it's certainly more about the character. Character. It's not entirely about what happened to the character and it's not funny. So I also wanted to think of something that has that relatable humor that you mentioned. So I was focusing on tone and I think that some authors who have that special blend of humor and maybe grief or like real substance about identity are Lily King, Dolly Alderton, Kathryn Heine, and in particular, I'll mention Jessica Anya Blau. And I mentioned her in particular because her books, both Mary Jane and her upcoming book Shop Girls, they both have a real nostalgia for a particular time. In Mary Jane, it's the 70s. In Shop Girls, it's the 80s. And they both have like real voicey main characters that you really get their personality and you can root for them. So I think your brainy punk rocker might find a friend in Jessica Anya Blue.

Bianca Murray (82:23)

Thank you, Emily. Okay, number six.

Deanna Raybourn (82:26)

Hi, Emily.

Bailey Hanna (82:27)

I'm a big fan of the comp.

Cece Lira (82:29)

Episodes and appreciate this incredible service you provide.

Deanna Raybourn (82:32)

I'm looking for comps for my psychological.

Cece Lira (82:34)

Thriller with psychic elements. This multi POV novel is set in.

Deanna Raybourn (82:38)

A fictional small town in southern Georgia. Our protagonist is a shy and awkward teenager with psychic abilities who gets a terrifying vision from a woman who lay later turns up murdered near her high school's football field.

Cece Lira (82:51)

As the killer continues to strike, this ghost brings new visions to the main.

Deanna Raybourn (82:55)

Character, sending her on a reluctant quest.

Cece Lira (82:58)

To find the killer who she suspects may be someone she knows. Meanwhile, he knows who she is and.

Deanna Raybourn (83:04)

Is determined to end her snooping forever.

Cece Lira (83:07)

There are a handful of suspects and with every new clue, each suspect looks more guilty than the last. I thought about Stealing Shadow by Kay Hooper, but realize this title is far too old.

Deanna Raybourn (83:19)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Bailey Hanna (83:24)

So I'm glad you mentioned that this book is set in small town Georgia. I immediately thought of Mesha Marin's books which are Southern noir or southern noir adjacent with strong female main characters. Thinking in particular of her first book Sugar Run, which is getting a little bit old now. I feel like anything that came out in the Life of East City Bookshop is a recent and a new book, but we are going on nine years old now, so that is not always the case. And the fact that our teen has these psychic abilities and receives these visions from a woman who turns up murdered makes me think back to the comp that we that we just talked about a couple of recordings ago. And so this one might be even a better fit for the Shudder by Ramona Emerson, Compared Comp or the Cash Black Bear series by Marcy Rendon. So I would urge you to look at those as well.

Bianca Murray (84:14)

Marvelous. Thank you. Okay, number seven and then we're halfway through.

Bailey Hanna (84:19)

Hi, my name is Amy and I love your podcast.

Deanna Raybourn (84:23)

I'm looking for comp titles for my.

Bailey Hanna (84:25)

Book Selling Planet Aspen, a sharp, witty and deeply personal memoir about my 20.

Carly Waters (84:31)

Years as a top luxury real estate.

Bailey Hanna (84:34)

Broker in in Aspen, Colorado, navigating billionaires.

Carly Waters (84:37)

Narcissists, and the wild contradictions of extreme.

Deanna Raybourn (84:40)

Wealth in a tiny speck of a.

Bailey Hanna (84:42)

Town just 3.6 square miles, think selling.

Carly Waters (84:47)

Sunset meets the Devil Wears Prada.

Deanna Raybourn (84:49)

But in a ski town where Gulf streams are more common than Ubers and.

Bailey Hanna (84:54)

Real estate agents outnumber doctors, My memoir.

Deanna Raybourn (84:57)

Is not a prescriptive advice book about.

Cece Lira (84:59)

How to sell real estate like Frederick.

Deanna Raybourn (85:01)

Eklund's or Ryan Sarahan's books.

Carly Waters (85:03)

Rather, it is a gritty exploration of.

Deanna Raybourn (85:06)

The themes of ambition, burnout, privilege, and.

Carly Waters (85:09)

The search for true happiness beyond the glitz.

Deanna Raybourn (85:12)

I'd love to hear your suggestions for comp titles.

Bailey Hanna (85:15)

Thanks so much. All right. Hi Amy. I love selling Sunset meets Devil Wears Prada. I mean, I like both of those things, especially right now when my attention span in my heart only want to watch things like selling Sunset. That's all I want. I want. I want to go back and watch Vanderpump Rules all over again. That's what I can take. That's the kind of escape that I need. And I totally get what you're saying, that this is not a how to real estate guide. I can tell that this is a tell all about the rich people that you're writing about in Aspen and I want to read that. I love rich people behaving badly as fodder for a novel. And it's even better when and it's true. So I think people love to peek into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The first book I thought of that did that fairly recently was Primates of Park Avenue by Wednesday Martin. And in that one she's skewering sort of the very, very wealthy Upper east side moms when she becomes part of them. Although she's a little bit of an outsider. But that one doesn't have the professional angle of your realtor experience and it's a little bit too old. So instead I thought of two recent books. Both of these are in New York. I don't know of anything that's in Aspen, but I think that's what's exciting and sets yours apart. So the first one is called you'd Table is Ready Tales of a New York City Maitre d by Michael Secchi Azzolina. And that is exactly what it sounds like. Somebody who was a maitre d at New York's ritziest and fanciest restaurants, helping out the rich and famous, writing all of what he's seen by being in that world. The second one is Building the Memoir of a Park Avenue Doorman by Steven Bruno. And it's the same thing except that he's, he's a doorman. So both of those, I think, are these people who are employed by and have to cater to and are privy to all the secrets of these very, very wealthy people. So I think either of those would be good comps and they both sold for us. And I, I didn't read either of them, but they've been on my list because I sure am in intrigued.

Bianca Murray (87:19)

Alice. Just get bigger and bigger, Emily. So we're forgiven for not getting to all of these. Have you watched Traitors?

Bailey Hanna (87:26)

I have not watched Traitors. I have been trying to get Maisie, my 16 year old, to watch with me and she is too busy to pick up a new series. But I think we will. I love Alan Cumming and I need to see my love to hate him. Tom Sandoval on this season.

Bianca Murray (87:41)

Yeah, he was really good. It's just for all of our listeners just in terms of how people think in terms of group. Group think in terms of how people behave but what they're actually thinking. It's an excellent show for any writer to watch in terms of motivations, in terms of interiority and all the rest of it. So get that on your radar. And there are now so many series. In fact, I think the best one that I've watched was Australia. It was the most recent Australian one and it ended so spectacularly that I think, and I stand to be corrected, that they said they're not doing another one one because people were so incensed and so upset by what happened on the show. But it made for excellent viewing. So try and watch that one.

Bailey Hanna (88:21)

That's what we need. And as Bianca said, it's research. So you know there's there no such thing as guilty pleasures, but this is research. So you're just doing psychological investigation while you're watching?

Bianca Murray (88:31)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, here we go. Number eight, Emily.

Bailey Hanna (88:35)

I'm looking for comps for my first person young adult novel. A coming of age story with science.

Cece Lira (88:40)

Fiction, fantasy, romance and adventure elements.

Bianca Murray (88:43)

Lonely and shy, 15 year old Zara.

Cece Lira (88:45)

Takes care of her alcoholic mom, an.

Bailey Hanna (88:47)

Iraqi war veteran with ptsd. Life gets better when she adopts and falls in love with two stray kittens.

Cece Lira (88:54)

Her mom's drug dealer tries to harm.

Bailey Hanna (88:55)

Her, but her cats morph into two huge leopards and save her.

Bianca Murray (88:59)

She learns her pets are genetically modified.

Cece Lira (89:01)

Mutants created by a depraved researcher.

Bianca Murray (89:04)

She and cute new boy team up.

Bailey Hanna (89:07)

With friends to stop the researcher, but.

Cece Lira (89:09)

Their plan goes awry.

Bianca Murray (89:10)

Zara must find her inner ferocity to.

Cece Lira (89:12)

Confront a bully, reconcile with her mom.

Bianca Murray (89:15)

And save her pets.

Bailey Hanna (89:16)

This emotional, plot driven story has unexpected twists.

Cece Lira (89:19)

Its tone and focus on relationships and social issues via adventure is like the Scorpio races meets Eleanor and Park, but.

Bailey Hanna (89:27)

I can't find any recent titles. I'd love to hear what you're.

Cece Lira (89:31)

Your thoughts are.

Bailey Hanna (89:33)

Okay. So for this young adult book, I only have one I usually try to think of at least. Ideally I want to come up with two, like really good comps for everybody. Sometimes it's just a list of authors. For this one I only have one, but it's a great one. So hopefully what I lack in quantity makes up for in quality. And again, this one is thanks to my wonderful colleague Amy Andrews and the book that she suggests is Once There was by Kish Monseth, which came out I think last year, maybe 2023, but it's, it's very recent and it's about a boy who is grieving the death of his father. His father was a vet. But after his father's death, as he's working through his grief, he realizes that his dad was a vet for magical animals. And the adventure takes off from there. So you'll have the same difficult sort of interpersonal struggles, the same issues of parenthood and dealing with your parents. Plus you've got the magical animals, plus you've got that adventurous feel. So I think this one is right. So shout out to Amy, who was really coming in clutch with the YA help this month.

Bianca Murray (90:38)

Thank you so much. Okay, number nine.

Bailey Hanna (90:42)

Hi, Emily, Nancy here. Thanks for doing this. I am looking for comps for my literary novel, how to Be a Man. Fred Wall is a math teacher in a violent marriage with a failed artist named Amelia. But Fred doesn't think of himself as a victim of domestic abuse. He sees himself as a good man, honors his vows. Five months after discovering that bringing his wife a daily plum soothes her rage.

Deanna Raybourn (91:02)

He rescues a colleague named Greta from a classroom fight.

Bailey Hanna (91:05)

After having a drink with Greta, he forgets Amelia's plum, a mistake that sets off a chain of events he couldn't have predicted.

Deanna Raybourn (91:11)

Amelia, convinced he's cheating, tries to win him back.

Bailey Hanna (91:13)

The sex is great and she's painting again, so he lets her believe he has a mistress. But his ruse backfires and Amelia becomes violent. Just as he asks her for a divorce, he learns she's pregnant. Scorned, Amelia tries to kill him. Now he must decide whether to fight to put the mother of his unborn.

Deanna Raybourn (91:27)

Baby behind bars or support a plea.

Bailey Hanna (91:29)

Deal that could spare her prison altogether.

Deanna Raybourn (91:31)

If I had to comp to toner.

Bailey Hanna (91:32)

Style, I'd say it reads like Franzen or Siobhan. But those authors are too big, and neither is a recent book that comps to the subject matter. Please help. Hi, Nancy, I am glad that you mentioned Jonathan Franzen or Michael Shaban, because that immediately positions it for me. Although I agree that those are probably too big to use. I feel like we joke in literary fiction circles about the Jonathan's like Franzen and maybe look at one of the other Jonathan's, Jonathan Safran Foer or Jonathan Letham. Jonathan Let them in particular has some books that are pretty plotty and he also writes like he veers into crime fiction. So because we're dealing here with like an act of violence and and then maybe some courtroom drama, I would look at his oeuvre. And then I also thought about, depending on your tone, maybe look at my beloved Richard Russo. So my favorites of his are too old and too big to comp my Favorites are Straight man and Nobody's Fool. But he has continued to write. He's still writing and the third book in the full trilogy just came out last year. And the reason I thought of him is because he also writes about sort of long suffering men who might be at some sort of crossroads or dealing with like marital drama, relationship drama. I would be curious about Tone though, because he is so funny in these books. But along similar lines, I would definitely look at the recent book Dream State by Eric Puckner, which was just released last month. And it is so, so, so good. So the hook is A woman in 2004, 2005, is working in Los Angeles. She is marrying a doctor in Los Angeles who has a family homestead back in Montana where they spend summers. And she heads out to Montana to plan the wedding, which is where that's where it'll take place. And while she's there getting ready, she's there alone and she meets her soon to be husband's best friend who will officiate the wedding. And meeting him throws her imagined life into turmoil. So the hook is this love triangle, but really it is so much more than that, which is why it was an Oprah pick last month. And just like yours, it seems like it has a lot of like complicated relationship dynamics, a lot going on. So all of those recommendations are men. So I was like, I cannot give comps that are all men, although the Jonathan Franzen and Michael Chabin, just like that's where I went. But for women who are also writing very rich and complicated domestic tableaus instead of the Jonathan's, I feel like we have the Anns, We've got Ann Tyler, Ann Patchett, Ann Napolitano. I had not ever thought of the parallel between the Anns and the Jonathan's before, but I kind of like that. And there's a book coming out. They're all so big that I get that those are to be avoided. But there's a book coming out later this year that if there is any justice in the world, it will do very well with those readers and has been blurbed by both Ann Patchett and Napolitano. And that book is called Bug Hollow by Michelle Hunnavan, who has released a number of books, all of which have done very well critically. And if there's any justice, like I said, Bug Hollow will be a breakout for her and it'll get a lot of attention. I don't love the title of Bug Hollow, it's the name of a place. But I loved this book and one thing it has in common with yours is, or at least what it seems from your description. It has an extremely likable and good hearted man, a very good man who is married to a character that's a very difficult woman. So the wife and mother in Bug Hollow is not violent, but she is a really challenging character. She's a character that you read the book and you want to talk to somebody. She's difficult, she's unlikable. Really someone to consider and grapple with as a reader. So I think that that would be a good one and I really want everybody to read Bug Hollow because it is so wonderful.

Bianca Murray (95:21)

Thank you, Emily. A lot to unpack there. Yeah. Why are the Jonathan's always so problematic? I want to put Jonathan Saf from Fur's ex wife on everyone's radar, Nicole Krauss. So yeah, read that. And I'm super excited to say, Emily, that we are going to be interviewing an Napolitano for the podcast.

Bailey Hanna (95:39)

Oh, she's so lovely.

Bianca Murray (95:40)

I am so excited. I've been trying to make this happen forever. So for our listeners, just know there are some authors that I will just keep hounding until we land them for the podcast. So I'm so excited to speak to her soon.

Bailey Hanna (95:51)

I love her books. I will will forever have a soft spot for Dear Edward. I think about that book every time I get on a plane. I'll never upgrade and sit apart from my husband or my children. As much as I like to get an upgrade because of that book, I think about it every time I get on a plane.

Bianca Murray (96:06)

Yeah. And we were lucky enough on the podcast to also get to speak to Ann Patchett. So we are taking off the ants rather than the Jonathan.

Bailey Hanna (96:13)

All right, you got to see if Ann Tyler is willing to come on.

Bianca Murray (96:16)

I will do my best. Okay, here we go. Number 10.

Bailey Hanna (96:19)

Hi ladies. Thank you so much for your public service.

Cece Lira (96:23)

I'm looking for comps for my Nordic.

Deanna Raybourn (96:25)

Noir esque crime fiction novel.

Bailey Hanna (96:28)

What if Silence of the Lambs Agent Starling investigated Fargo. A police inquiry into 60 missing Indigenous women without a body found culminates in a modern day Sweeney Todd style mass murder. Jaded female vice cop Danny Shelby takes.

Cece Lira (96:43)

The helm of a department maligned investigation.

Bianca Murray (96:45)

Her cynicism for mounting missing sex workers wanes as her suspicions grow that the women are dead.

Bailey Hanna (96:51)

Set in British Columbia, this fictionalized account.

Bianca Murray (96:54)

Of implausible true events is well known.

Cece Lira (96:56)

To Canadians, but eclipsed to the rest.

Deanna Raybourn (96:58)

Of the world by 9 11's tragedy.

Bailey Hanna (97:00)

Comps include real easy appeals to lovers.

Deanna Raybourn (97:03)

Of Camilla Bruce, true crime fiction And.

Bailey Hanna (97:06)

Unbelievable, A pro publica article turned book turned streaming procedural. Thank you. Okay, so definitely Real Easy. I thought of it before you said it, so I am so glad you mentioned that one. I love that book. I recommend it frequently. So does my colleague at the bookstore, Destiny, who is a wonderful hand seller and great reader. I'll also say that Marie Ratkowski, who wrote Real Easy, has a novel coming out later this year. It's not a mystery. It's called Ordinary Love and the early reads on it have been fantastic. So I'm looking out for that one. I can't wait for it. I also loved the miniseries of Unbelievable and I think that that it, which they retitled the original title of the book that it was based on had sort of a confusing title, but in the paperback they retitled it Unbelievable to go along with the the show. I think that's an excellent one to include because your book is inspired by this true story. I think that captures the based on true crime angle quite well. And to those, those really great ideas, I'll add the Dime by Kathleen Kent because she writes books with sort of an edgy female cop story and they're all supposed to be wonderful. I've had a galley of the Dime, a hardback of the Dime and a paperback because I want to read it that badly and just haven't yet. But I'm going to because I know how good it's supposed to be. And I'll also add City Under One Roof by Irish Yamashita. And I thought of City Under One Roof because it's set in Alaska and it also features a female detective and has a really gritty feel. So I think the Alaskan setting might conjure that cold British Columbia place or that Nordic noir vibe that you mentioned.

Bianca Murray (98:48)

I wonder if they can comp as well to the. What was the Jody Foster show that takes place in Alaska?

Bailey Hanna (98:54)

Oh yeah, True Detective. Yeah.

Bianca Murray (98:56)

But I guess that's got more paranormal elements in it. Right? Right.

Bailey Hanna (99:00)

I didn't watch it yet, although I am a big Jody Foster fan, so I intend to watch it. And if you saw Heard my dog coughing, that was my. That was my poodle Gwyth, who likes to participate.

Bianca Murray (99:10)

For our listeners, I'm looking at this poodle and I'm so in love. It's just the little kisses are just so beautiful. Hi, Gwyneth.

Bailey Hanna (99:17)

She's really interfering with this. So hopefully you can't hear her attempts to make out with me.

Bianca Murray (99:22)

She's adding value, not interfering. Okay, here's our next one.

Cece Lira (99:27)

Hi, I'm looking for comps for my multi POV speculative suspense novel, the Gracious Ones. It has a gritty tone and morally.

Carly Waters (99:34)

Gray protagonist reminiscent of Lizbeth Salander from.

Cece Lira (99:36)

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and.

Carly Waters (99:38)

Explores female agency similar to the Power. However, both of those are too big.

Cece Lira (99:42)

One is too old and there's no fantasy element in mine. Ash is the pragmatic and ruthless leader of the Gracious Ones, an all female vigilante group prepared to protect women at any cost.

Carly Waters (99:51)

Cost.

Cece Lira (99:51)

When a group of wealthy female activists approach Ash to find their missing friend, a city council candidate, Ash recognizes an opportunity to expose Emory Tate, the man she blames for her mother's death and whose political career she believes benefits from a criminal trafficking ring. After the COVID is blown, Emory Tate frames the Gracious Ones as the city's true criminals and kicks off a city wide hunt for Ash and her allies. Ash must decide the length. She's willing to jeopardize the women in Maldina and herself to undermine the system that profits from their suffering. Thank you.

Bailey Hanna (100:20)

Okay, so I like. I like what you've mentioned. I like the Elizabeth Salander vibes. I like that you mentioned Naomi Alderman's the Power, but I get that those are too big and too old and that there's no real, like, fantasy in this. So instead of the Power, consider a book called I Keep My Exoskeletons to Myself by Marissa Crane. I have seen that book compared to the Power and to Naomi Alderman. And it's speculative, but it's on that dystopian end of things. It's not supernatural or paranormal like fantasy based. It's about a woman who is living in an extreme police state and how she is forced to defend herself against that power imbalance and all that corruption. So I think that could be a really fitting comp here. Another one that is often mentioned alongside the Power, but not quite as big. It's often mentioned alongside the Handmaid's Tale too. And that's Red Clocks by Lenny Zumas. Again, it's a feminist dystopia. She's writing about motherhood, she's writing about freedom. I think it's also multi pov, if I remember correctly. So that's another one that could be a good match.

Bianca Murray (101:29)

Thank you, Emily. Okay, here we go.

Bailey Hanna (101:32)

Hello. My dual POV adult fantasy novel follows rival sisters Nereen and Pyra in their home country of Azure. The Red Rook is amassing a Blood Blood Echo army, plunging the land into environmental collapse. Nerine flees the army to hide her ability to Morph with animals with Pyra.

Deanna Raybourn (101:47)

Hot on her tail.

Bailey Hanna (101:48)

But when Pyra's own dyadic power reveals itself, she questions her loyalty to the Rook and spares Nerine's life. Now that she knows Pyra could be the key to overthrowing the Rook, Nerine must choose sister or self, but Pyra too must decide, accept her true nature or remain loyal to her king. There are two slow burn romantic subplots, one queer, one straight, but this definitely doesn't fall into the romantasy genre for its nature oriented magic system and environmental themes. I thought of Naomi Novik's Uprooted, although this is likely too old. And for a more recent title with a similar balance of family dynamics and political corruption, I'm considering Andrea Stewart's the Bone Shard Daughter. I'd love to hear what other comp title suggestions you have. Thank you. Okay, I think you're right on track with Naomi Novik's Uprooted and Andrea Stewart's the Bone Shard Daughter. I love those suggestions, and because those seem appropriate to you, I'll add just a couple more Anytime someone comes in the store and tells me that they love Naomi Novik and want to know what else to read, I suggest Katherine Arden and vice versa. So I would look at Katherine Arden's books, and anytime someone wants a big rich fantasy like the Bone Shard Daughter, I always suggest SA Chakraborty, specifically her Daevabad trilogy, maybe NK Jemisin, Although I feel like the the Shannon Chakraborty's Feels Closer Here and then RL Kwong's books before she wrote Babel and Yellowface. So I would look at RF Kwongs. I would look at those as well. I think you're already there with some great comps.

Bianca Murray (103:16)

Thank you. Here we go. Number 13 hi, I'm looking for comps.

Bailey Hanna (103:21)

For my debut novel, the Last Summer on Rodman Street. A wildly imaginative yet neglected boy, Worth Hollinger is the leader of a group of kids growing up in Asheville, North Carolina, in the 1980s. The children roam the local woods unsupervised and eventually headquarter themselves in an abandoned house. Unbeknownst to the others, Worth has befriended Pirushka Horvath, a reclusive Hungarian widow who lives across the street. Pirushka knows Worth's family's sad backstory and tries to help, feeding him, helping with schoolwork and teaching him to play piano after a fire in the abandoned house exposes the extent of worse neglect neglect and the degree to which the neighborhood kids are running wild. Pirushka sees that if she wants to help Worth, she'll have to summon a level of courage that has eluded her for decades. This book has a similar tone to Tell the Wolves I'm Home by Carol Rifka Brunt. Its outdoor setting, period vibes, and child.

Deanna Raybourn (104:13)

Characters make the God of the Woods.

Bailey Hanna (104:14)

A possible comp, although that book is more of a mystery than mine.

Deanna Raybourn (104:18)

Thank you.

Bailey Hanna (104:19)

Oh, I am so glad that you sent this in. This writer emailed me and asked for computer and was very kind to suggest a concierge appointment, which I do offer for book shopping through the bookstore, but I have not been able to do any comp sessions outside the podcast, so I urged her to call in. So I'm so glad she did. Thank you. Thank you. I love Tell the Wolves I'm Home and I love the God of the woods, as you all probably know. And mostly I love that this book is set in Asheville, North Carolina, so we split our time between D.C. and Asheville and it's just my favorite place. So I'm thrilled to hear about this book. I wonder if Chris Whitaker's books might be a good comp here. So his book from last year, all the Colors of the Dark, might be too big because that was really like one of the biggest bestsellers of 2024. But maybe consider his previous novel, We Begin at the End, which is not very old. It is also fantastic, and the reason I thought of him is one he's just so good. But both of his books deal with these spunky kids who are either largely or entirely on their own for a variety of reasons. They must depend, even if they don't want to, on the kindness and help of some perhaps unlikely adult helpers who grow up in the process too. That makes them sound kind of cheesy. Neither of them are cheesy, they're just very good at mining. Both books are very good at mining the emotional depth depth of intergenerational friendships. My 12 year old is coming home from school and my other dog is barking. So if you need me to pause and start over, Bianca, we can certainly do it.

Bianca Murray (105:57)

No, we we love hearing the animals weighing in. Carry on, Emily.

Bailey Hanna (106:00)

Life in the background. The other book that I think is a really good comp here, and I'm so glad to have the chance to mention it on air, is called Summerlings by Lisa Howworth. It's possible it's too old to use as a comp, but it is, at the very least, least a wonderful read. So it's about a gang of neighborhood kids who are living in Washington D.C. in 1959 or 1960. So you've got that sort of like roving band of neighborhood kids who are left to their own devices having adventures. But it's also a coming of age story investigating how children are dealing with all these adult things that are going on around them. And it very much has a nostalgic historical setting, like a very keen sense of place and time and some very charismatic youngsters. It is lovely. The other one I will mention here because we're in my lane now of the books that I like to read, the Orchardist by Amanda coplin is from 2011 or 2012, so probably too old, but I am delighted to have the chance to mention it just because I want more people to read it. And it's about two young girls who are escaping abuse and in their escape find that they have to rely on a stranger, an old man who's the the Orchardist of the title who does not want to be drawn into that relationship. And it's set in the Pacific Northwest in the early 1900s or thereabouts and just fantastic. One of those books. I wish I could go back and read again for the first time. So hopefully one of those will work with the books that you've already suggested.

Bianca Murray (107:30)

Thanks Emily. It's amazing how some protagonists stay with you. And Dutch from We Begin at the End is like one of those protagonists that will never let me go.

Bailey Hanna (107:38)

Yes, absolutely.

Bianca Murray (107:39)

Yeah. Okay, here's our last one. Hello.

Carly Waters (107:43)

My story is a YA fantasy told.

Bailey Hanna (107:45)

In third person, omniscient from a sarcastic narrator's recollection of events. Elliot and his best friend slash bandmate live in a world free of violence or adversity. Elliot.

Deanna Raybourn (107:55)

Sure, he's found his purpose with music.

Carly Waters (107:57)

But as they prepare to go on tour with a well known band, best friend is taken by someone not even.

Bailey Hanna (108:02)

The God of life's eyes can see. Elliot must join God's fabled army of guardians to save his best friend. But first he must train with Charlotte.

Deanna Raybourn (108:10)

A brutal monster hunter with a short.

Bailey Hanna (108:11)

Fuse and abundant secrets, to figure out why he was given such a useless.

Carly Waters (108:15)

Weapon and how to wield it before.

Deanna Raybourn (108:17)

They can head out.

Carly Waters (108:18)

It has a close, hopeful, humorous narrative.

Bailey Hanna (108:21)

And is inspired heavily by rock and metal music. Themes of finding your purpose and working hard pays off. John Scalzi and Nicholas Eames come to.

Deanna Raybourn (108:28)

Mind, but I was hoping for something.

Bailey Hanna (108:29)

YA na, though it's not as dark.

Deanna Raybourn (108:32)

As most YA and not as spicy as most na.

Bailey Hanna (108:35)

Thank you okay? Once again, Amy helped me with the YA fantasy. So props to Amy for being a great co worker all the time, but especially this month for the podcast. And Amy suggests here the new Ransom Riggs book, which is called the Extraordinary Disappointment of Leopold Berry. So this is a fantasy adventure. It's set in la. It doesn't have that music inspiration or the music basis, but it is very concerned with a TV show and television. So it still has that pop culture content and pop culture feel. And it features a best friendship between two boys and that vibe of, okay, now I have to go figure out and save my best friend and what's happening to him. So I think that one sounds spot on. And the second one that Amy mentioned is called the Strange Fascinations of Noah Hypnotic by David Arnold. And in this one, music does play a big role because the main character loves David Bowie and he is hypnotized. And once he wakes up from hypnosis, everything is just slightly off, including his best friend. And he's got to figure out sort of what's going on, what to do next. It has that male friendship angle. It has that adventure fantasy spirit. And Amy, before this last year turned me onto David Arnold's books by way of his most recent novel called I Loved you in Another Life, which I thought was incredibly beautiful. I immediately became a fan and it definitely his writing, at least in that one that I read. It hits that spot that you described between young adult and and new adult. So I would say it fits in that upper range of YA with a lot of adult crossover appeal, but it's not too dark like so much YA fantasy, and it's certainly not spicy like so much of the new adult books are. So thank you to Amy for two more excellent suggestions. And thank you for calling in. And that's our last one.

Bianca Murray (110:30)

It was a team effort. Thank you so much, Amy. And hi to Destiny, right? So huge thanks to Emily for those amazing comps. Remember, if you do want to get your comps in, get them in as early as possible possible. We tape quite early in the month. If you didn't hear yours today, they probably came in too late and they will be dealt with next month. And for those of you who'd like to weigh in and crowdsource some other titles, remember to look out for our Tuesday Instagram post that follows this episode. Emily, we look forward to chatting with you next month.

Bailey Hanna (111:01)

Thank you, Bianca. Always great to be here.

Bianca Murray (111:03)

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's. Show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes Would you like to do some good in the world while also standing in line to win amazing literary prizes? Of course you would. I'm hosting a fundraiser for a cause that's close to my heart Literacy in South Africa. There are a host of amazing literary prizes up for grab grabs if you donate to this wonderful cause. They include two books with hook slots where you'll join us on the show, as well as developmental edits, coaching packages, manuscript critiques and so much more being offered by industry experts Lydia Hilger, Rebecca, Faith Heyman, Trevor Brooks, Nicole Mayer, Christina Boyd, Hannah Arnayer, Lisa Rivers, Elizabeth Held, Karen Geiger and Alexandra Kakin. To learn more about the cause as well as the prizes and our brilliant and generous sponsors, head to Biancamarae.com and look for the fundraiser tab. Entries close at 8am Eastern Time on 10 April, after which the lucky winners will be announced. It's Beta Reader Match up time again, where you can be matched up with those writing in the same genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique their says. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 4th of May, with the matchup emails going out on the 5th of May. Because my new novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, pubs in early June and will be keeping me very busy, this will be the last matchup until the fall. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matchups will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors and hopefully they'll do the same when the time comes for you to register. For more information, head to Biancamurrae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.