Bianca Murray (3:18)

Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one tells you about Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

Patricia Sands (3:34)

Hi everyone.

Bianca Murray (3:35)

It's my huge, huge pleasure today to be joined by Patricia Sands, who is one of my favorite people, who is an excellent literary citizen and a brilliant writer. And it's been overdue that we have you on the show, Patricia, so welcome.

Patricia Sands (3:51)

Oh, thank you, Bianca. Wow, that made me feel very good. What a way to start the morning. It's a pleasure to be here.

Bianca Murray (3:59)

Your bio is so impressive. It's so long. Can you just tell us a tiny bit about yourself and then we're gonna dive into your extraordinary story in terms of publication, which I know our listeners are going to love.

Patricia Sands (4:12)

Okay, well, let me see. I've lived in Toronto for most of my life, also had a fairly nomadic existence with my second husband. I was widowed when I was 43. I went back to university and became a teacher, taught for a little while, remarried, started traveling a lot with my husband. We also, I went from having two children to having seven children. And so we're a large blended family. But I started writing at 65, just really kind of by accident. I write like I talk and I talk a lot, so. So maybe that's why I started writing. So my first novel was the the Bridge Club. And it was about my real life bridge club, eight women and our friendship from the time we were in our late teens, early 20s, into our 70s. And I didn't even intend to publish it. I was just writing it for us. But anyway, I did publish and I indie pubbed because I did go through the process and I did send out some query letters, but I was 65, first time author and a nobody. So I wasn't high on any literary wish list. So I indie pubbed and I used the same company that Lisa Genova had used for Still Alice. I figured that was going to be a solid group and it was. I had a good experience anyway, I started hearing from readers and they'd ask what else I had written and I had written nothing. But I had also gotten involved with the writing community and I realized I loved writing. So I continued with my next book. My husband and I have spent a lot of time in the south of France and I wanted to set my books there. I also heard from women who said they really like reading about older women, more mature women, and that was a pleasure for me to write about. So I Indie Pub 3 books. And then one morning I opened my computer and there was an email saying, good morning, Patricia. I'm a senior acquisitions editor with Amazon Sleek Union Publishing.

Bianca Murray (6:14)

So let's start with the starting writing at 65. I mean, how do you mean? By accident? Tell us about that.

Patricia Sands (6:24)

Well, my husband had a lot of health issues kick in and so I had more time on my hands. And I was talking with one of the women in the bridge club one day because we're all still very good friends and she said, so why don't you start writing the bridge club? Which we had joked about, like for 40 years we had joked about, okay, Pat, you should write the book. And so I just did. I just started writing and it was, it was fun because I was writing about people I knew. I had to talk to each one of them again because some of the things I was writing about had happened so many years ago. I didn't remember all the details, but each one of them, it was their story, so they remembered the details. And of course it became fictionalized as I went along and I realized I couldn't include some things and I needed to embellish other things. And it just became this wonderful project and I never intended to publish it, but then they started saying, you know, I showed this to my girlfriend and everybody thinks you should publish. You're telling women's stories. It would be a really good book club book. And so that's what happened there.

Bianca Murray (7:42)

Did you try and get an agent originally for that book or were you just like, I'm going to self publish this? How did that process look No, I.

Patricia Sands (7:51)

Really, because I read about, I mean I knew nothing about, you know, the writing world or the publishing business. So I followed the website of Terry Fallas who is a Canadian author and.

Bianca Murray (8:06)

Shout out to Terry, we love you Terry.

Patricia Sands (8:09)

Yeah, exactly. He probably doesn't remember, but I did bump into him on a couple of occasions and, and he always gave me real encouragement about just get out there and drive around with boxes of your books to all the bookstores and you know, this sort of thing, which I didn't necessarily do but he was just so encouraging. So in following his website I saw who he had first indie pubbed with the company. And also I was reading an interview with Lisa Genova around the same time. I remember this going back 15 years and she had published through the same company, Indie Pub. So I thought, well, if they both use that company, I'm going to use it. Because I figured they would have done their homework. And I'd been researching all these different publishing companies but I had no idea what I was doing. So anyway, I used this company, I'm not going to mention the name of it because it gets some bad press because of course what they want you to do is buy their marketing program and you know, pay money for this and pay money for that. But in all honesty, I had the best experience with them and I do mention that and thank them at the end of my book. And I had excellent editors, they were great. And so that set me off on this voyage. And then when I started hearing from readers, which was such a surprise to me, I thought, well yeah, I really did love writing that book and I was learning so much about the craft of writing and I had become involved with a lot of writers because I took a blogging course and you know, those were in the days when your blog was really important. And so yeah, it just started to become part of my world for those.

Bianca Murray (10:05)

Of you who don't know. So Terry Fallis started his career by self publishing and is now like a best selling author in Canada. Every book he brings out is on the bestseller list for weeks and weeks is very popular, you know. So you were talking about Still Alice.

Patricia Sands (10:21)

Right.

Bianca Murray (10:21)

So that was also self pubmed originally and then published traditionally. So this is something a lot of our listeners ask about, like is it possible if I can't get an agent to self publish and get the attention of agents or publishers down the line? And this is exactly what happened with you. So you self published those three independent books and then you got approached by Lake Union Publishing. So tell us a bit about what they then wanted to do and what they were offering you.

Patricia Sands (10:53)

Right. Well, it was Danielle Marshall, who was the senior acquisitions editor at the time. And I like to mention her name because I don't think I'd be where I am today had it not been for her sending me that email. And it was such an amazing experience to think that they were interested in my books. And. And Lake Union bought the rights to my Love in Provence trilogy. What started off as just my book number two, and I thought it was just going to be a standalone book, but again, I started hearing from readers saying, well, they're talking about Kat, the main character. And at the end of the book, she was living in France, so did she stay? Did she go, what happened? Tell us more about her story. So all my writer friends said, well, that's great. You can turn it into a series. So that was my intention. So Blake Union said, that's great. We'll take your first two books, we'll do another edit, we'll change the COVID and then we will republish. And when you finish book three, we'll publish that as well. I was really proud to say that when they re edited, they hardly changed anything, which made me feel really good about the freelance editors that I had used. And they sent me a bunch of different choices for the covers. And I loved my covers. A young man in Toronto had worked with me and done watercolor paintings of each cover, and then we had them formatted into the book cover. And that was something else I heard from a lot of my readers. You know, we love your covers. I should have them with me, and I don't. But they're beautiful covers. And it. That also is just a lesson that's always stayed with me about the importance of covers. And. And when I take the books into like. I showed a woman who just opened a new bookshop near Collingwood, where I live now, and she looked at those books yesterday, and the first thing she said was, oh, I love the covers.

Bianca Murray (13:01)

So did you get to keep those covers with Lake Union, or did they completely want to change them?

Patricia Sands (13:07)

Yes. No, they kept them and they just put a different. I can't think of what you call it, but a different block on the COVID that showed the title and my name and. But that was the only difference. And so they republished the first two and then they published the third. And then they said, okay, well, that's great, but now we'd like you to write a standalone. And by this time I was in my 70s and I said, well, you Know, I really only want to write about the south of France. It's such an important part of my life. I've been going there for 30 years. I love it so much. I think I was born there a couple hundred years ago. I really do. It's just such a part of my DNA. So anyway, they said that's fine. I said I'll move the location so it won't be where these other books are set, but it's still set in the south and the protagonist is still going to be a mature woman. So I wrote Drawing Lessons, which is set around and in the town of Arles, which is a little more west from Provence. And the protagonist was a 62 year old woman. And I loved writing that book. But I also realized when that was finished, and this sounds really stupid for an author because imagine how fortunate I was to be approached by a publisher instead of, you know, having to work really hard to get the attention of one. And I realized that I was so lucky to have that happen. But I also knew that in my life with my big family, which is a really important part of my life, my husband's health problems and also when he was well, us traveling a lot, that I couldn't keep up with the deadlines, I knew it would be a very stressful life.

Bianca Murray (15:07)

So one, what you say is so important for authors is to know what your goals are when it comes to publishing, to know what your boundaries are, to know where writing is going to fit into your life in between everything else. Because some authors have very different goals. Some are like, I just want to get traditionally published and I'll work myself to death and I'll have no life. And that is great. But they may not end up very happy. And I think it's amazing that you sat and you went. This was a wonderful opportunity and I'm grateful for it. But this is not necessarily what I want for myself, because I think authors really need to stop and define success for themselves every few years, define if this is still bringing them joy. Because here's the thing, we come to writing for the joy of it, but when it becomes a job and we have deadlines and we working so hard, a lot of the joy is sucked out of it because suddenly it's not this fun hobby anymore. It's like the grind, right? So in terms of the deadlines, like with Lake Union, with what were they expecting you to do in terms of turning books around, like, what were those deadlines like?

Patricia Sands (16:18)

Well, I mean, again, remember, this is going back a number of years But I mean, some of my closest writing friends are still are Lake Union authors who came to Lake Union about the same time I did. But they've stayed with them all these years and that's wonderful. But I appreciate, you know, I, I talk to them and I know that they're under deadline and you know, got the second edit, has to be back in two more weeks and that kind of thing. And I mean, maybe, you know, maybe I just wasn't committed enough to want to have the pressure of those deadlines. I mean, because the reality is, as you know, when you're fortunate enough to have your book picked up, it goes into the assembly line, there's a publishing date and there are all those other deadlines that have to be met before the book can be published and you have to meet them. I know again from talking with friends, things happen in life and if you have a personal crisis, you know, and you simply cannot make the deadline, of course they're going to do their best, publisher is going to do their best to try and accommodate you. But yeah, I just, I just didn't want to have that stress.

Bianca Murray (17:35)

So like some publishers have a book a year deadline, some publishers have like two books a year deadline. So. And then what Patricia was talking about, all those other deadlines is you've got like the copy edit deadline and you've got the proofreading deadline and you prior to that, that it's a developmental edits deadline. And you know, it's all of these different deadlines plus you having to work on the next book because they want the next book delivered by a certain deadline. So you're writing a new book, you're copywriting another book, you're promoting another book. So it can become a lot. It really, really can.

Patricia Sands (18:13)

Yeah. And perhaps if I'd started when I was 30 or 40, I would have had a different outlook on it and a different commitment because certainly I appreciate the benefits of being with a big traditional publisher. And the main benefit, of course is financial because their reach is so much greater than an indie reach. And so, I mean, I'm fortunate that I wasn't writing to support my family, which might not have been a good thing. I might not have had the right attitude for that. But the years that I was with Lake Union were very profitable. It was very exciting to see so many books being sold. And certainly as an indie, I don't sell as that, that many books. But again, it's not a big deal because, because I'm older and because I'm not supporting my Family. I appreciate young writers. I mean, they have a lot of goals and it's. They're writing because they love writing, for sure. Because if you don't love it, you can't do it.

Bianca Murray (19:21)

So then after that you went back to indie publishing, is that right? Tell us a bit more about that.

Patricia Sands (19:29)

I did, yes. Well, I realized after drawing lessons came out that. Yeah. That I just didn't want to live by those deadlines all the time. And so Lake Union was really great because a lot of readers who had read my Provence series were getting back to me again and saying, hey, what's going on with those characters? We really, you know, we love Kat and Philippe, and I have a woman in her 90s, Simone, who's very interesting character. And they wanted to know more about them. So that's a gift to an author really, you know, to have your reader so engaged with your characters and because you're engaged with them too. And so to write about them was great. So I, over the course of a couple of years, I self pubbed four, well, short novels, they call them now, like novellas, right? 250, 280 pages, that kind of thing. Four different books following all those characters. And so that was really a lot of fun. And then Covid came along and I was thinking, I'd like to write another novel. And so I had a short again, a novella from way back that I had and I decided to take a look at that and turn it into a novel. So that became the Secrets We Hide. And you know, it's interesting. And I did, I did send it to Lake Union and because I'd been told that, hey, you know, even if you don't want to write anything now, if you have anything, send it to us. So. But the issue with that was that my protagonist was a Japanese man. And you know, a few years ago, cultural appropriation was a big deal with publishers. And so that was kind of an issue. And they said, no, I don't think it's. It's not for us. So I just put it out there and, and I loved that book. I. It was, it was a different. It was a bit of a switch for me. My books are normally described as having quiet plots. You know, nothing really exciting happens. It's more about the characters and the locations and, and the lifestyle and what's happening within their relationships with their family and whatnot. And so this was a book that focused very much on mental health. And it was set in Hawaii and Japan. And of course, eventually it got to the south of France, because I have to do that. But it's won four very nice awards. And I think it, I think it's a good book. I think somebody might have been interested in it, but I just put it at myself.

Bianca Murray (22:27)

What's fascinating to me is how you found your audience, because that is the biggest. I think it's the biggest struggle for authors is to tap into who their audience is and to have their audience constantly be in touch and go, I want more of this. I want more of this. You know, it's. It's extremely difficult. And I think that sometimes where indie authors do better than traditionally published authors because they, I don't know, the indie authors I know have really found their fans. They build up a fandom way quicker and much more loyal than traditionally published authors. Do you think that's right or do you think that's not a fair assessment?

Patricia Sands (23:12)

No, I think that's a very good assessment, actually. And I, and I wonder if it's because as indie authors, we really appreciate the connections that we have with our readers. Not that other authors don't, but it's just a more intimate connection, I think.

Bianca Murray (23:31)

Can I ask as well? Because once the connection happens, it's great because as a traditionally published author, I love connecting with my readers as well, but it's to get the book in their hands so that they can connect in the first place. So can I ask your first indie published books, were they at a price point that made it possible for people to go, I'm going to take a chance on this debut author as opposed to if it's a hard cover or if it's a soft cover. People are like, I've never heard of this person before. I'm not spending 25 bucks or whatever on this. So. So sometimes that's something because people will look at Amazon and go, oh, this is only like $2.99. So I'm prepared to take that chance. Was that part of your marketing campaign in the beginning?

Patricia Sands (24:18)

It did become part of it. I mean, first of all, I have to credit Lake Union with building up my readership. I mean, you know, let's face it, I hate to, you know, it's not a, it's not a well received word these days, but Amazon has a reach, you know, and so in those four years that my books were being published by Amazon, I reached a lot of readers. And fortunately, a lot of those readers stayed with me. I don't think I'd have the readership I have today had it not been for Amazon. And another thing that Amazon does is even after your book is out there, they keep promoting it. You know, I love, even now I get emails from Amazon marketing, say, saying hi, we wouldn't let you know that, you know, the, the Promise of Provence is going to be on sale next month for 2.99. Thank you, Amazon. That's great.

Bianca Murray (25:16)

Yeah. And that, that is incredible because it does mean that people are prepared to take a chance, like I say, on an author that they haven't tried before because it doesn't like spending 2.99 versus 25 or now 30 bucks or whatever the heck books cost these days. You know, it's, it's a big sort of difference. But Patricia, we've only got like five minutes left, so tell us about your latest book.

Patricia Sands (25:40)

Well, listen, we still have a lot to talk about, Bianca.

Bianca Murray (25:43)

I know, I know, but we have five minutes left. So this is, I think we're going to have to get you to write more for our newsletter, Patricia, but show up the. You've got the COVID here for those of you who are looking at on YouTube.

Patricia Sands (25:55)

I do, yes. So. So this is my new book, the French Effect. And it was just a joy to write. I wanted to write something that was just fun and, but interesting. And of course everything I write is set in France. So if you don't like France, don't worry about buying my books because I talk about it a lot, you know, and it's just a big part of, I mean it really is, I guess, my brand. I mean my newsletters are full of photos from France. For 10 years I did a women's tour based on my books. Imagine how much fun that was. Yeah, two week tour was just great. There are some other things sort of cooking in the pot. But anyway, this book is getting great reviews. The advanced readers are all busy posting right now and it comes out on November 15th and I'm, I'm really thrilled with it. It's just a, a happy story. Has some very interesting things happen. It's about a woman, a widow, a novelist, from a small ski town two hours north of Toronto, but I don't actually mention the name of the town. And her daughter is an artist in Paris and she calls her mom, saying that her next door neighbor has an emergency. She's leaving for six weeks in Mexico and she needs a dog sitter for her Doberman. So her mom doesn't like to make snap decisions, but she convinces her to go over and, and take on this project. And it's all about the people she meets and the Places she goes and. And the handsome young Frenchman who introduces her to the tango, because the French are very big in the tango, you know. Anyway, it's a fun read and it's very. It's set in December and January in Paris at Christmas, which is magic. And then in the countryside of Provence over the actual Christmas days. And I. I think people will really enjoy it.

Bianca Murray (27:57)

Yeah, you. You're such an inspiration. Sorry. When I heard tango, I winced because the only time my husband and I have ever done a dance class together was for somebody's birthday party where they got in a dance instructor who, I don't know why, thought that teaching everyone the tango would be the best way to go.

Patricia Sands (28:16)

And.

Bianca Murray (28:16)

And as we did the turn, my husband kneed me in the crotch so badly that I actually couldn't walk for a week. So I'm not a big fan of. Of the tango, but I am a big fan of. Of yours, Patricia. As I said, such an excellent literary citizen, such a wonderful, wonderful person, a big cheerleader of writers. So for our listeners, we're going to link to the book on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Please get it there and dive into Patricia's backlist. That's the most amazing thing because, you know, at the moment, I don't think anybody can actually buy a brand new physical copy of my debut. How many of you don't know the words? Because it's my understanding Penguin Random House has just stopped printing it. So you can get it on Kindle, but you can't get it printed, which is nice. No, it's. It's frustrating and it's maddening, but, like, your whole backlist is there and everyone can just go and dive into it. So there was a lot that we weren't able to cover. I had so many more questions, but this, this conversation was so fascinating. I'm definitely going to chat to Patricia and see if we can get her to do something for the newsletter for all the points we didn't get to. So thank you so much for joining us.

Patricia Sands (29:30)

Thanks, Bianca. I would love to do that because there is so much to talk about. And I love it when I talk with new writers in our writing groups that we are developing. And I often say to them, you know what? Of course it's wonderful if you can get an agent and a publisher, but if you can't, if you have this book and it's lovely and you believe in it, get it out there. And once people start reading it, maybe the publisher will come to you.

Bianca Murray (29:57)

Perfect place to end.

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Bianca Murray (33:32)

Hey everyone, welcome back to another comps segment with the ever fabulous Emily Summer from East City Bookshop. Emily, welcome back to the show.

Emily Summer (33:41)

It is great to be back. Thank you, Bianca.

Bianca Murray (33:44)

Yeah, I don't know what the hell happened in October, man. Everybody was snoozing or I don't know, they all became comp geniuses or what happened?

Emily Summer (33:52)

Well, people are comp geniuses. Everybody is well trained. So that's it. And I don't know if people are like we are in D.C. there was a lot going on in October, so I get it.

Bianca Murray (34:02)

It's probably just as well. Okay, so we're gonna dive in. Here's our first one.

Patricia Sands (34:08)

Hi, I'm looking for a second comp for my contemporary literary novel in the vein of Lily King's Writers and lovers that follows a disillusioned 32 year old cubicle worker struggling to recreate her life in the wake of her mother's sudden death while contending with family secrets and her own abandoned dreams of becoming an artist. It explores the intersection of grief and desire and the emotional reckoning of second chances. With psychological acuity and some quiet dark humor, the protagonist does everything she can to avoid her grief, including developing a renewed fixation on her ex boyfriend, a successful photographer living with his new artist partner in Brooklyn. But when she stakes them out, she learns their life's not all it appears to be. More facades crumble when her long estranged father resurfaces as the surprising co executor to her mother's will, she's forced to face her grief, let go of what never truly was, to create a life she really wants to live. I'd love to hear any other ideas you might have for a couple more comps. Thank you so much.

Emily Summer (35:03)

Okay Writers and Lovers as soon as I hear Writers and Lovers, I hear Lilly King, I am immediately invested. I am a Lily King super fan. I am a Writers and Lovers super fan. So I love this comp and I love the description of your book that we've gotten for all the other Lily King fans and Writers and Lovers fans. I know there are lots of us out there. Get to an indie bookstore if you have not read Lily King's latest Heart the Lover. So that's apropos of nothing except we all need to read it. A comp that I always recommend for a reader who loves writers and lovers or is looking for something similar is Ghosts by Dolly Alderton. I love Dolly Alderton and I love Ghosts in particular, and I think it hits the same notes as Writers and Lovers Lovers because it's such a pleasure to read. It's so easy to read, but there's so much wisdom and substance and great writing in Ghosts. There is not traditional grief in that one, but there is some anticipatory grief as the main character's parents are aging and her father is ill. So tonally I think it works well in terms of just like life stage and psychological acuity. And that also reminds me of Goodbye Vitamin by Rachel Kong, which might work well too. It's possible that that one is too old, but I think Rachel Kong Rachel Kong certainly is not too old. Although Goodbye Vitamin is her previous book, it's completely different from her more recent book, Real Americans, which I'm sure people are aware of. But what I like about all these books Writers and Lovers, Ghosts, Goodbye Vitamin. They all have a 20 something, 30 something young adult narrator who is struggling but but they're not a hot mess. You know, you understand what they're going through, you understand why they're in the situation they're in, and they're easy to root for. And along the same lines, a more recent book that I think hits those same notes. This is one of my favorites of 2025, and it's Emily Everett's all that Life Can Afford. It was a Reese pick, so I think it got some initial attention, but otherwise I think it's been a bit underrated. And our main character in that one is grieving her mother's death, and she's also working to create that life that balances her passion, which in her case is English Lit. She's getting a master's degree with actually surviving and making a living. So I think that that one works too. It definitely reminded me of Lily King when I read it, which is my highest praise. I will also suggest a book that I'm currently reading that I hope will make a splash next year in 2026 and it's called Mothers and Other Strangers by Corey Ann Haydew. And it's coming from Little Brown and it's about, as the title suggests, mothers and daughters and about balancing sort of the eventual life you end up with with your artist's dreams. But I'm really enjoying that one, so just, just a little wreck for future reference.

Bianca Murray (37:58)

Love it.

Emily Summer (37:58)

Thank you.

Bianca Murray (37:59)

We actually got to see Lily King in Toronto when she was out recently promoting the book. And for our listeners, if you want to see a picture of absolute joy, go to the Instagram account of Suze Dugard. She was our newsletter editor, and find the picture of her and Lily together. Lily said it was one of her absolute favorites and it's just such a joyful picture. So go and look that one up. Okay, here is number two.

Patricia Sands (38:24)

Hi, I'm looking for comp titles for my adult literary historical fiction debut. The novel begins in 1989 and follows three female friends, one Jewish American, one Jewish Israeli and one who's mixed race and Catholic, living in a small fictional city in upstate New York. Told Rashomon style, with each of them getting a pov. The narrative is divided into three sections revolving around key events both in their lives at 16, 26 and 31, backgrounded by large scale historical events such as the Berlin Wall coming down. The themes are complex female friendship and American identity. I've thought of Fellowship Point and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. And although they're not sisters, I wonder if us fools or blue sisters might work. But I'd love to have a comp that signals the diversity of these characters and their community. Thanks.

Emily Summer (39:19)

I love a friendship story and I love the suggestions that you've made. I think Fellowship Point, Us Fools, Blue Sisters. I like those. I totally get where you're going. And the one that I will add is the Wilderness by Angela Flournoy, which just came out in 2025. It was long listed for our National Book Award and it reminds me of your description because it is also several different women multi povs from all of them and the timelines jump back and forth as well throughout. This one is more contemporary, it doesn't go all the way back to the 80s if I remember correctly, but you jump not just from the characters perspectives but you jump from to different timelines as well. Or different time periods as well. It is very much about American identity and complex female friendships and female relationships. None of the characters in the book are Jewish. These are all black American women. And I do think that sounds like a significant part of this novel. But in terms of structure and content and themes otherwise I think that the Wilderness sounds like it's a really good fit. It was really good. It was very powerful. I highly recommend that one for a great 2025 read.

Bianca Murray (40:31)

Thank you, Emily. Okay, here we go to number three.

Patricia Sands (40:35)

Hi, I'm looking for comps for my work in progress. Young Adult New Adult Pirate Romanta Z. My protagonist longs to escape her tyrant boss and find her brother. Her only form of escape is sailing with a fearsome pirate ship, along with a series of trials recruits must complete in order to stay on board. The only person who might be able to help her through is the handsome first mate she's unsure she can trust. Inspired by Caribbean mythology and my love for Pirates of the Caribbean. Previous comps I've thought of have been Daughter of the Pirate King and Fourth Wing for the recruiting trials. Although I think that's too big, so any help would be welcome. Thank you.

Emily Summer (41:07)

So yes, I think you're right. Fourth Wing is probably too big. I can't think of a bigger romantasy that every title that I get in a catalog from a publisher these days is like this is the next Fourth Wing. Well, they can't all be. So I think you're right to steer clear of that. But to get the same idea and the same reader, maybe look at the Serpent and the Wings of Night by Carissa Broadbent. So in that book there's a tournament that gives you the same sort of high stakes adventure. Part of Fourth Wing instead of fellow recruits. You have the competitors. And along those same lines too, maybe. Look at this Schoolman series by Naomi Novik. I know I've recommended her in the past and I think she's on the cusp of being too big. She is certainly big, but I don't think that she is that like so big that people discount it. And the first in that series is called A Deadly Education. And I think both of those books that I've mentioned will capture some of the elements and appeal. A fourth wing without the name, that's going to be sort of alienating.

Patricia Sands (42:08)

Wonderful.

Emily Summer (42:09)

Thank you.

Bianca Murray (42:09)

Okay, here's number four.

Emily Summer (42:12)

Hi Emily, thank you so much for doing this. I'm writing a literary suspense told from the perspective of a middle aged woman in suburbia who has never gotten over the death of her friend, which happened when they were both children. She's pretty reclusive, but does have one acquaintance in her apartment complex who comes over unannounced all the time, and on one such occasion she shares with the protagonist that a neighbor girl has been found dead in the area. Together they try to solve the case.

Patricia Sands (42:39)

While the main character works through her.

Emily Summer (42:40)

Own guilt and arrested development because of the loss of her friend 30 years before. Ashley Flowers the Missing Half might be good, but my story is more voicey and there's a lot of dark humor.

Patricia Sands (42:52)

There's also a little piece of the.

Emily Summer (42:54)

Puzzle that brings us back to the 1700s. I am so glad you said the Missing Half by Ashley Flowers, because I already had that in my head and I know I've mentioned that here before, but you said that yours is voicey and has some dark humor. I found the Missing Half very voicey. It was one of the things I liked about it and I think it's sort of sharp and had some of that dark humor in it. So I think that's a good fit. I would not. The voicey makes it more of a fit to me instead of less of one. For the dark humor, I will add Listen to the Lie by Amy Tintera. Also super voicey, but very darkly funny for a book about, you know, your friend's death that you've never gotten over. It's really funny and I really enjoyed reading it. It's a fun read. I'm intrigued by the piece of your story that goes back to, I think you said the 1700 and for that aspect maybe look at Amelia Hart's book the Sirens. It is not the suspense and the thriller that the Missing Half and Listen to the Lie are, but it's definitely Literary. It's definitely suspenseful and it also has a contemporary versus historical angle that might be a nice match for that part of your story.

Bianca Murray (44:07)

Wonderful. Okay, we almost at halfway. Mark number five.

Cece Lera (44:11)

I'm looking for comps for my speculative romance. Tallulah James has just met the man of her dreams. He's enigmatic, sensitive and sexy. He's a world famous rock star and he's crazy about her. The only problem, he's been dead for 50 years. Orphaned young, Tallulah was adopted by the aunties, the free spirited lesbian couple who run the most iconic record shop on the Venice beach boardwalk. When Aunt Rosie is diagnosed with a rare memory disorder, Tallulah's fragile sense of home starts to unravel until vivid lucid dreams pull her somewhere impossible. Into the arms of Jack Maddox, the doomed frontman of her favorite 60s rock band. Tallulah discovers her connection with Jack's band's lifetimes transcending time itself. With the clock running out on their fated romance, she must discover whether their love is powerful enough to rewrite history or if loving Jack will cost her everything she has left. Most of my comps are either too old or too big. Some I've considered are Ashley Poston's the Seven Year Slip, Addie LaRue, Outlander and the Time Traveler's Wife for epic love stories that transcend time, and Daisy Jones and the Six for Los Angeles rock and roll nostalgia. Thanks for your help.

Emily Summer (45:06)

Okay. I love this pitch. You know, I love a rock star, dead or alive. I think you're right on the money with the Seven Year Slip by Ashley Poston. If I hear anything that has that sort of light speculative element to what is otherwise might be a fun romance, I think of her, so I think that's great. I love the mention of these record shop aunties. I'm already ready to read it, so definitely Ashley Poston. That feels right. I think she's not too big to comp. I do. I think you're right. Daisy Jones is too big. The other's too old. So here's. This is kind of a wild one that captures the same Daisy Jones aspect, but Cameron Crowe's recent memoir, the Uncool, it just came out. It's a memoir. He's a music critic. It's about his days as a. As a music journalist, not critic. But it's basically the movie Almost Famous in memoir form. That's what Almost Famous was based on. So I don't know if there's a way to mention a memoir and have it bring up the same vibes. There's also a new book coming out next year called Wreck youk Heart by Lori Raider Day that they are pitching to readers of Daisy Jones and I think it is an effective pitch and the people that I've heard who have read it already have really liked the book and think that it will do really well. So depending on your timeline and that publishing timeline, that's when you might be on the lookout for and then just in general maybe look at you know, I'm thinking of something like Is it Alyssa Sussman meets Matt Haig? With Alyssa Sussman writes such good celebrity normie romances and Matt Haig writes such good lightly speculative lit fic. So I'll throw those out there and see if there's any way that that fits as well.

Bianca Murray (46:45)

Thank you.

Patricia Sands (46:46)

Emily Number six I'm looking for comp titles for a women's fiction novel about a Hollywood publicist whose bad behavior as the meanest bullying boss in town blows up her life spectacularly. She's assigned to community service at the county zoo, cleaning up after goats and learning from a cute zookeeper about the importance of wildlife conservation and our place in the natural world. She also has to attend a court ordered 12 step program as anger management which helps her unpack the trauma of her past that caused her to behave so monstrously. If she can learn to put others before herself, she can use her PR skills to launch a huge star studded campaign to raise money and awareness for endangered species and find a happy ever after with her zookeeper sweetheart. Other than the TV show Single Drunk Female, I haven't thought of any women's fiction comps or romances that deal with a mean protagonist who betters herself 12 step groups, zoos or the entertainment publicity machine.

Emily Summer (47:43)

Okay, I love a bad, mean main character who has to get her comeuppance. My favorite Hollywood novel in recent years is the Work Wife by Alison B. Hart. It's got that Hollywood insider angle and it's got personal assistants in it, but it's got publicists too. But it's got these very insider characters with questionable motives and morals who are forced to come to a reckoning. It's more of a me too novel than it is like an unlikable female protagonist novel. But I think that it is. It's right in that Hollywood wheelhouse and it's excellent. So I would look at that just to see does it make any sense as a comp and if not, you're going to read a great book anyway. And then in terms of, you know, I can't. I also can't think of anyone where a really mean main character's bad behavior blows up her life. But in terms of like very complex, unlikable, but maybe relatable, well written characters in general, I am thinking of Taffy Brodesser, Actner Fleischman is in trouble, Long Island Compromise. And I'm also thinking about Maria Semple. So of course her most famous was Where'd you go Bernadette? Which is too old, but she's got a new one coming out next year called Go Gentle, which I've not read yet, but I feel like both of them do a really good job of writing these characters. Who you're like what are you doing? And why are you doing it? And I don't understand. But then you kind of come around to it, so something to think about.

Bianca Murray (49:11)

Marvelous.

Cece Lera (49:12)

Okay, number seven I am looking for comps for my book blending contemporary sci fi with women's fiction with three POVs. Olivia Finnegan is a woman who wakes up realizing she has been kidnapped by a highly skilled international group of superhumans who fight for the protection of other elects in their gene altered futuristic world. Believing her capture is a mistake, she fights to take it back to her husband and daughter, but she finds out she has the gene variant giving her advanced abilities. The other elects, including the two other POVs, try to convince her to train and to stay away from her family to keep them all safe. Being wildly in love with her husband back home and with being a mother, Olivia is driven to deeply explore who she is without these tags and how her newfound abilities will fit into her old life. This book dives deep into subjects of motherhood, self identity, marriage and grit. The memories of her husband and the male relationships she develops will make you debate if you're Team Callum, Team Bear, or Team Jackson while falling head over heels for Team Olivia. My book has similar world feel to this Mortal Coil, which is too old, and dramatic twists like Wild Dark Shore, which is too big. I appreciate any suggestions.

Emily Summer (50:15)

Okay, I always mention Blake Crouch. Drink when Emily suggests Blake Crouch. If there was a drinking game for this segment, drink when I suggest Blake Crouch. But I I mentioned Blake Crouch all the time because I do think he's just that good and I think he's the best at blending like very grounded realism with these superhuman techie sci fi possibilities. So take a look at the great Blake Crouch and the superhuman abilities. Aspect also made me think immediately of V E Schwab's vicious and vengeful. Although she is probably too big. And those are older. But I think that the superhuman abilities part might work there. And look too at Helen Phillips's novels. So she wrote the need and more recently hum. The need especially is about motherhood and the demands of motherhood and balancing your real self and motherhood. And she also does a great job of what Blake Crouch does, which is blend our real world and our real like very real seeming lives with this futuristic sci fi possibility.

Bianca Murray (51:20)

Awesome. Okay, number eight.

Patricia Sands (51:23)

Hi, I'm Stacey. I'm a huge fan of Batist, not ya. And thank you so much for doing this. I'm looking for a comp for my novel Burn down the World. It's a dual POV YA fantasy that's a love story between sisters at its core. Half portal fantasy quest with terrifying elemental monsters and half our world political intrigue with terrifying men. It's about overly confident princess Lys who magically swaps bodies with her sister Queen Ari to take her place on a deadly underworld quest. While Lys fights soul sucking elemental monsters alongside the son of her father's assassin, Ari works with the sorceress to get Lys back to this world alive. All while forming a resistance group and fighting to retake her throne from the old man who has usurped her. Thank you so much.

Emily Summer (52:09)

Okay, the YA fantasy and adult Romanasy. Those as you have all probably figured out, these are my hardest, but I had a couple of immediate thoughts for this YA fantasy with political intrigue. The first thing that I thought of was Three Dark Crowns by Kendari Blake. It's older, but the political intrigue and the battle over the throne feel like it would be right for the same reasons I thought Holly Black's the Cruel Prince. That whole series seems like a really logical comp. Less obvious and more recent would be the book Sisters of the Snake which is actually by sisters. Their last name is Nanua or Nanua N A N U A. I actually don't know how well that did in terms of like a sales track, but I would take a look at it because if I recall correctly it has both the sister angle and the very high stakes political battle. So I think there are definitely some similarities there.

Bianca Murray (53:08)

Awesome. Okay, number nine.

Emily Summer (53:10)

My name is Julia and I'm looking for comp titles for my debut psychological.

Patricia Sands (53:14)

Thriller Beneath the Surface.

Emily Summer (53:15)

Beneath the Surface follows Mallory, a burnt.

Patricia Sands (53:17)

Out pre med student who joins her.

Emily Summer (53:18)

Best friends Estelle and Rory for a hiking trip in the Appalachian mountains.

Patricia Sands (53:23)

What begins as a much needed escape.

Emily Summer (53:24)

Spirals into a waking nightmare with strange sickness, mountain folklore bleeding into reality and a charming stranger who blurs Mallory's grip on reality.

Patricia Sands (53:33)

Things quickly source as her body fails.

Emily Summer (53:36)

And paranoia sets in. Malorie discovers the real danger isn't in the mountains, it's beside her.

Patricia Sands (53:41)

Estelle, her lifelong best friend, has been.

Emily Summer (53:43)

Drugging her slowly stealing her identity and.

Patricia Sands (53:45)

Trying to live Malorie's perfect life for herself.

Emily Summer (53:48)

The novel blends psychological tension with atmospheric survival elements and is intended for new adult and adult readers who enjoy stories about female rivalry, identity and the quiet violence of envy with a touch of romance. Thank you so much for your time. Okay, plot wise, this is different, but I have to mention Heartwood by Amity Gage because that is the current book on hiking survival, the Appalachian Trail, and it is so good, everyone should read it. It's one of those books that I think you can put in almost anyone's hands because it's got so much and it's just so wonderful. So absolutely, if you all have not read Heartwood by Amity Gage yet, that is one of my 2025 faves. I also immediately remembered an older horror movie called the Descent, which is about a group of friends, female friends who go spelunking and then man, they're down in this cave and bad stuff starts to happen. And I was going to say it's older, like maybe 10 years old, but I looked it up and turns out it was 20 years old. So that's why sometimes I can't pinpoint which titles are too old to recommend. It all seems recent enough to me, but I recommend the Descent as a horror movie if anybody is a horror watcher. In terms of book comps. Back to our topic. I always love to recommend both Peter Heller and Kimmy Cunningham Grant when it comes to any sort of suspense that has an element of action, adventure or survivalism. They are both excellent at writing nature and the beauty of nature and also the terror of being stuck in nature and in the elements. And Kimmy Cunningham, Grant's most recent book, which came out last year, the Nature of Disappearing, also has some of the friendship frenemy themes, the themes of envy, who can you trust? The complications of friendship and how dangerous that might be. So it has those same themes. So I think that one could be really good here.

Bianca Murray (55:45)

Great. Okay, here is our last one.

Emily Summer (55:48)

Okay, so our last one I got in writing actually. So this one was written in instead of sent as a voicemail still, please send it as a voice note if you can, but I will read this one so you get to hear it in my voice Hello. Thank you for this segment. It's very instructive. I'm looking for comps for my YA novel that is set in a school for spies. It takes place in the real world and there's no supernatural elements in it. But I put in a lot of work on the lore and the world building. It's a secret community that has specific rules and a very rich history. So I strongly believe it can appeal to fantasy readers even though there's no magic. Do you know of any books that could be good comps? I usually mention the Thieves Gambit, Six of Crows and Wednesday the TV show, but I'd love to have more examples of books that are not fantasy yet still have a great emphasis on world building. There's steampunk gothic elements in it as well. In case that's helpful. Thank you in advance. You are welcome. My first thought for a YA book that has this fantasy crossover appeal but is not fantasy or magic, and that's Jennifer Lynn Barnes the Inheritance Game series. Our customers, our readers at East City Bookshop, love it. My kids read it, my husband read it, loved these books. And there's definitely some crossover between the things that you mentioned. It's realistic fiction, but it appeals to those thieves Gambit Leigh Bardugo, Wednesday fans that you mentioned. So I think look at Jennifer Lynn Barnes the Inheritance Game series. And then for the gothic and steampunk elements, I thought immediately of the books of Gail Carringer, which that's exactly what those are. I don't actually don't know if there's magic in there. Maybe not. But either way, I think it has that crossover appeal and it sounds like it would be right up the same alley for the readers that you're targeting. So that's what I'd go with. And that's it.

Bianca Murray (57:38)

Amazing. Thank you so so much again for taking the time. For those of you who want to submit for next month, please make sure you go to our website. There's Ask a Question, please submit the recording. This time we included the person who put it on the form in the wrong place, but we can't always do that. So please submit the recording there and do it before the 10th of the month because we do record this segment quite early. But we're looking forward to hearing all your requests and I look forward to seeing you next month.

Emily Summer (58:06)

Emily, look forward to seeing you and thank you all.

Bianca Murray (58:09)

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just Takes one.

Cece Lera (58:17)

Yes.

Cece Lera (58:23)

What's up everyone?

Cece Lera (58:24)

This is Cece.

Cece Lera (58:25)

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