Perfecting the Page One Experience

Summary

THE SHIT NO ONE TELLS YOU ABOUT WRITING
Episode: Perfecting the Page One Experience
Date: January 8, 2026
Guests: Rhiannon Harvey (author), Bianca Marais (host), Carly Watters (literary agent), CeCe Lyra (literary agent)

---

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on “perfecting the page one experience” for emerging writers, using live critique of a query letter and opening pages from debut author Rhiannon Harvey’s YA manuscript Mara’s Call. Hosts Bianca, Carly, and CeCe provide honest, instructive feedback—diving into query letter best practices, market positioning challenges, and craft elements essential for compelling beginnings. It’s a hands-on look at how agents and editors analyze submissions, making this a goldmine for anyone polishing their submission package.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Small Talk & Author Introduction

• The crew opens with playful banter about animal obsessions (sharks for Rhiannon, raccoons for Bianca; 01:14–02:55) and discuss how these personal quirks infuse their writing.
• Rhiannon’s marine biology passion and ocean settings are introduced (“I am a marine biology nerd and my stories tend to feature the ocean.” – Rhiannon, 01:22).

2. Query Letter Live Reading and Critique

Rhiannon Reads Her Query Letter

• Rhiannon presents her query for Mara’s Call, a YA speculative fiction centered on a girl uncovering her family’s secrets on a remote New England island. (03:38–06:07)

Key Query Elements:

• Atmospheric, oceanic setting.
• Psychological mystery involving family trauma and possibly supernatural phenomena.
• Author’s credentials as a marine biology expert.

Carly’s Critique (06:21)

• Praise: “You did an incredible job. It is so good...I’m totally enamored with it.” (06:21)
• Title feedback: Mara’s Call feels off since the MC is Perry, not Mara. “I think you need a more atmospheric title.” (06:21)
• Mixed metaphors: “Sea whispers secrets and nothing stays buried for long” is flagged as incongruent.
• Lack of clear plot “hook” in the query’s opening paragraph. Carly suggests something more gripping, e.g., “A 15-year-old girl must uncover the truth about her aunt's disappearance...”
• Sensitivity language: Suggests “died by suicide” vs. “committed suicide”.
• Author bio: Suggests tightening to focus on connection to story, not ‘teaching moment’.
• Overall: Strong, polished, “we can tell you listen to the show. Good job, Rhiannon.” (09:49)

CeCe’s Critique (09:53)

• High praise: “Definitely in the top 1% of query letters we’ve received. So polished. Really, really strong.” (09:53)
• Plot motivation: Concern protagonist’s drive is too intuitive; wants clearer, plot-driven motivation for investigation. “If the protagonist's motivation to investigate a mystery comes purely from intuition, the reader will not experience that same intuition...” (09:53)
• Antagonistic force: Suggests making island antagonists or threats more explicit in the query.
• Endorses “inspire love for the ocean” line in bio, disagrees with Carly for personal warmth.
• General: Query makes her “very curious, which is the goal.” (09:53)

Carly Adds (14:02)

• Wonders about the presence of “active participants”—other teens, clear antagonists.
• Suggests even a mention would sharpen plot stakes.

Author Perspective & Q&A (15:38)

• Rhiannon welcomes alternate title ideas: “I would really be open to any and all interesting suggestions at this point.” (15:38)
• Explains query’s struggle: wants to balance “plot points, but also establishing vibes.” (17:55)
• Shares context: book is set in the 1990s, drawing on historical overfishing concerns. (20:13)

Craft & Query Writing Tips

• CeCe: Focus on plot over vibes in the query. “Plot is just what query letters need to focus on…sometimes a vibey sentence can stay, but…sprinkles of salt, not ingredient.” (21:15)
• Suggests exercise: Write a “plot-only” version, then combine elements.

---

3. Opening Pages—Summary and Critique

Brief Scene Overview by Rhiannon (25:53)

• Perry, sent to a remote island after her mother’s breakdown, arrives to stares and whispers; meets a mysterious boy and her aunt. Mood is dark, foggy—paralleling Perry’s internal uncertainty.

CeCe’s Feedback (27:24)

• Writing Quality: “The writing is great. Like, so great. There wasn’t a single clunky sentence.” (27:24)
• Suggests starting with Perry’s reaction (“Perry pretended not to hear the mutters”) for immediate intrigue.
• Interior access: Wants more “head and heart”—deep interiority and emotional processing throughout. “Right now Perry’s getting 30% more attention than the other characters. It needs to be like 230% more.” (34:51)
• Contradiction: Notes Perry staring at the island “hungrily” and wants that tension made explicit in narration.
• Character Dynamics: Asks for Perry’s emotional reaction to whispers, her aunt’s comments, and her own contradictions about returning.
• Inspirational moment: CeCe recalls as a child wanting to know others’ thoughts—“Books… do the magical thing of giving me access to her interiority.” (34:21)

Carly’s Feedback (34:56)

• Echoes CeCe’s desire for more protagonist reaction/interiority, e.g., how Perry feels about the ship, meeting the boy, or her aunt.
• Praises atmospheric writing: “You did such a great job…spoke to obviously your intimate understanding of, you know, how ships and all of that works.”
• Setting and stakes: Commends opening at “the most interesting point in [the protagonist’s] life.”
• Suggests highlighting familial/biological resonance in the aunt’s first appearance.
• Summarizes: “Lots and lots of praise! … Little bit of interiority will go a long way.” (38:11)

---

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• CeCe: “Definitely in the top 1% of query letters we’ve received. So polished. Really, really strong.” (09:53)
• Carly: “You did an incredible job. It is so good...I’m totally enamored with it.” (06:21)
• Rhiannon: “My goal is to use my background in marine science and the maritime industry to inspire love and concern for the ocean in young adults.” (Query reading, 05:50)
• CeCe: “Books…do the magical thing of giving me access to her interiority.” (34:21)

---

Market Positioning & Genre Discussion (38:27–45:23)

• Rhiannon queries feedback on market fit—YA vs. adult vs. new adult.
• Carly: Points out query doesn’t highlight interpersonal teen dynamics, only plot; wonders if it would sell better as adult upmarket fiction.
• CeCe: Encourages Rhiannon not to change solely for rejections, but to focus on making the character connection “sing.” Notes new adult is a growing, hungry publishing market.
• CeCe offers: Regardless of age category, “you still need to work on the connecting with character element.”
• CeCe gifts her interiority/psychological acuity class to Rhiannon as thanks for being an open guest.

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:14 – Rhiannon introduces herself and shark obsession
• 03:38 – Rhiannon reads query letter
• 06:21 – Carly’s critique
• 09:53 – CeCe’s critique
• 14:02 – Discussion on antagonists and plot clarity
• 15:38 – Title brainstorming and author response
• 20:13 – Rhiannon describes manuscript’s 1990s setting
• 21:15 – CeCe’s query writing exercise
• 25:53 – Rhiannon summarizes her opening pages
• 27:24 – CeCe’s page one critique (emphasis on interiority)
• 34:56 – Carly’s feedback on opening pages
• 38:27 – Rhiannon’s big-picture question: market fit (YA/adult)
• 42:01 – Panel discusses YA, new adult, and market trends
• 45:12 – CeCe offers Rhiannon free access to her course

---

Takeaways for Writers

• Query letters must focus on plot, stakes, and clear motivation, with “vibes” as seasoning, not substance.
• First pages need strong emotional access to the protagonist—not just what happens, but how your character feels, processes, and experiences it.
• If industry feedback suggests your work is “between” YA and adult, examine where emotional resonance, pacing, and voice align best—and consider where interpersonal dynamics land.
• Your lived experience (like Rhiannon’s marine adventures) can enrich a manuscript’s atmosphere and credibility—just be sure to link that organically in bio sections.
• Great writing is about making readers want to be inside your protagonist’s mind; unspool not just events, but internal contradictions and emotional truths.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in submission strategy and craft, offering not only precise, actionable suggestions for query letters and opening pages, but also an honest glimpse into the agenting process and the current publishing landscape. Rhiannon’s openness and the hosts’ generosity make for an instructive, encouraging experience for all querying writers.

---

If you’re polishing your first pages or query, cue this episode for both a confidence boost and a checklist for moving from “good” to “page-turning.”

Transcript

[A]

Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literal. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hooks. We're really excited to have the author joining us on today's episode, Rhiannon Harvey. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[A]

For our supporters who are watching on YouTube, please show us your lucky T shirt, your great white shark T shirt.

[B]

I'm wearing my favorite shark T shirt for good luck. I am a marine biology nerd and my stories tend to feature the ocean, so I have a pretty one track mind, honestly.

[A]

Amazing. We've often said on the podcast that we should have Karlie and Cece wearing shark hats sometimes so that they can like fight each other for for submission. So that fits in perfectly. And this is the perfect way for me to show everybody who's watching on YouTube. Some of you will know that I'm absolutely obsessed with raccoons to the point that my last book had a main character who was a raccoon. I follow more raccoons on Instagram than I follow people. And look at this T shirt that I found of a raccoon eating out of a Toronto bin. It is really cute. But that's not all. Look at this mug that I found. The mug is a City of Toronto bin and there's a raccoon in it. And look at his little butt. Look at that. It is so cute.

[C]

That is such a cute raccoon butt.

[D]

It's also such a Toronto thing where you're like, why would the. Why would the raccoons be eating at the trash? So in Toronto, for those of you that don't know, this is like many cities, animals have adapted to learn how to open the compost food waste bin and then get in them to the trash, basically the food waste. So I'm sure that's done that in other cities, but it's like a Toronto thing where they change the receptacles to. To close, and then the raccoons learn how to open them. So. Yeah, and.

[A]

And I actually recently read a study that said raccoons are evolving to become more cute, to appeal to humans, and that their interactions with humans are becoming more to the point that they might actually become the next domesticated animal. I, for one, cannot wait to get my pet raccoon.

[B]

Okay, I heard about that on. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Which is the best show ever on npr?

[A]

Oh, there we go. Okay. I read it somewhere and I was just like, sign me up, people, sign me up. Okay, Right. So I think this is the first time we've had any kind of small talk before we've dived in. So that's the first time in five years people make a note. Okay, Rhiannon, we're going to ask you to dive in by reading us your query letter.

[B]

Absolutely. I will skip the paragraph at the start where I'm singing your praises. And without that, this query letter is going to clock in at 372 words.

[C]

So.

[B]

Dear Bianca, Carly and Cece Mars Call is a work of speculative YA fiction, complete at 85,000 words. Blending the missing person mystery and psychological uncertainty of Kristel Sutherland's House of Hollow with the isolated setting and atmospheric suspense of Nicole Wilson's tide pool, this story takes readers to an island where the sea whispers secrets and nothing stays buried for long. Please note that this manuscript contains mention of suicide and mental health disorders. Following her mother's psychotic break, 15 year old peregrine is sent to live with her aunt, uncle, and cousins on a remote New England fishing island. The village, once thriving, has fallen into disrepair. The fishermen are no longer able to feed their families, and some even whisper that they're cursed. And nobody seems willing to talk to Perry about Mara, her mother's mysterious twin sister who vanished as a child, Perry's search for clues takes her all over the island, from the towering cliffs in the west to the shipwreck studded coves in the east. Though her newfound peers believe Mara committed suicide, Perry can't shake the feeling that Mara's fate, her mother's troubles, and the island's plight are linked. Equally disquieting is the fact that Perry has started to see and hear strange things. Voices on the wind and unearthly spirits in the ocean waves. As her fears about her own sanity grow, so too does her conviction that Mara's disappearance isn't what it seemed and that someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply. Perry must unravel the secrets at the island's heart and learn the truth about what happened to Mara before she disappears too. I grew up on board a 43 foot sailboat as my family completed a west to east partial circumnavigation of North America via the Panama Canal. As an undergraduate at Duke University, I majored in marine biology with a minor in creative writing, and I currently work as first mate and dive instructor on a private yacht. My goal is to use my background in marine science and the maritime industry to inspire love and concern for the ocean in young adults. Mara's Call is my debut novel and was recently long listed for the Blue Pen Agency's 2025 First Novel Award. Thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise. Sincerely, Ran and Harvey.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you so much for that.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

We really should get our guests on all the time to read their query letters. They do a lot better job than we do. Okay, so, Carly, I'm actually going to hand it across to you first.

[D]

Yeah, sounds great. I always love when we have authors on the show. It's always my favorite time. I don't know, it's just so nice to bounce ideas around. And Cece and I always have so many questions and Bianca too, for the imaginary author that's never there and only sending in their material. So I love, I love when we get authors on the show. I also love when we get to tell authors what a good job they did in person. And I think you did an incredible job. It is so good. You know, YA isn't one of my primary categories that I work in. I certainly worked on YA before, but, you know, I. I'm totally, totally enamored with it. I also interviewed a YA author for our show and so I'm like, maybe I'm dipping my toe into the YA universe again. But yeah, so as I said, I think you did a really great job. I don't like the title at first. I'm kind of like. I kind of like stumble over a little bit, like Mara's call, you know, like, the sound of it maybe isn't working for me. Also, Mara isn't the main character. Right. Perry's the main character. And so obviously we understand that Mara is kind of probably presumably calling to her from the water or the spirits. And that sort of thing, but I don't love it. You know, I'd love to hear if you have some backup ideas. We can obviously chat through them at the end because I think you probably have some better ones up your sleeve especially. I'm sure you have many like water, nautical, ocean puns and you know, sayings and things like that that you could work through. So I would love to, to chat through that with you. You also don't really have a like, hook, presumably in this opening paragraph. It's a lot of vibes, you know, it's like isolated setting, atmospheric suspense, the mystery, all of that is good. But I think the piece of sea whispers secrets and nothing stays buried for long. I actually find that a bit of a mixed metaphor. Right, because it's like sea. Nothing would like to be buried in the sea. Things would sink in the sea or stay underwater in the sea. So it's a bit of a mixed metaphor, but I would probably just put an actual hook in there and I can run through, you know, some of my ideas for you because I think there's some that are a little bit more gripping, you know, for example, a 15 year old girl must uncover the truth about her aunt's disappearance on a remote island, despite fearing the strange voices she hears are a sign of her own crumbling sanity. Something where it's like, what's the hook of the book? As opposed to, you know, some vibes, some, some thinking, you know, that type of thing. I put an actual hook in there. And in the critique pages I have a couple other hook ideas for you if you want to play around with putting an actual, you know, couple line hook in there. What did I have next for you? So in the body paragraph you have, I mean, so you use the, the terminology committed suicide. I think these days people prefer die by suicide. It's a small verbiage thing, but just as a note. And that's some feedback that we've gotten on the show. So that's just a small tweak that I'd probably recommend. And other than that, like, I, I think it's. I think it's really strong. I don't think, you know, I have any major notes. I would say in the author bio paragraph you have the line about. My goal is to use my background in marine science and the maritime industry to inspire love and concern for the ocean and young adults. I probably wouldn't use that as a teaching moment personally, because it's a commercial novel and it's not like a nonfiction guide to the ocean. I don't think you need that there. I would tie the connection of, you know, my life has been on the water and in boats and, you know, in nautical environments to the book. Like, I would like. Instead of making it like a teaching moment, I would just find a way to. And I'm just making this up. You know, when I was little, I saw this island. I didn't know what it was. And then I've always had this dream about that, you know, just something where it's like, linking the nautical lifestyle to the book. But I wouldn't do the teaching line, and that's kind of all my notes. I think you did a really great job. I think it's super interesting. So good job. We can tell you. Listen to the show. Good job, Brianna.

[A]

Wonderful. Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you now.

[C]

I want to echo Carly's compliments because truly, like, we get a lot of query letters on the show, and. And this is an educational platform, so we're very happy to get query letters that are still very much a draft and that, you know, our jobs are essentially to offer feedback. But this was so fantastic. Like, definitely in the top 1% of query letters we've received. So polished. Really, really strong. Because we have our brains, our critical thinking brains, and because you are here asking for feedback, I am going to give you suggestions, but I want you to take each and every suggestion with the caveat that it's fantastic. If I represented ya, I would be like, oh, my gosh, let me scroll down and read these pages right now, because I am so excited to read more, and I would be really sad that there were only five. So that. That's the goal, right? Like, the goal is to make the agent curious. Okay, so plot paragraphs. My obsession. You do a really good job with the first paragraph of establishing the inciting incident and the mood of the setting. I was curious about her specific place in the world, but it wasn't a curiosity that bothered me. It was more like, huh, I really hope I find out more soon. You know, it wasn't like, this is missing. And then we get to the second plot paragraph, the one that begins with Perry's search for clues. And our substack supporters can perhaps listen to this and follow along with the pages that you guys get. There is a line that reads, perry can't shake the feeling that Mara's fate, her mother's troubles, and the island's plight are linked. This suggests to me that the protagonist goes on a journey, an investigative journey, because of intuition and I worry. I worry because if the protagonist's motivation to investigate a mystery comes purely from intuition, the reader will not experience that same intuition. And so it can come across as plot convenient. I am not saying that that's what's in your pages. I'm saying that that's how you're framing it in the query letter. And so as an agent, I go, ooh, I wonder if. I wonder if the motivation is properly developed in the pages. I hope it is. I don't know. And I feel like that line is doing your story a disservice, especially since right afterwards you have a line that says that she's starting to see and hear strange things, voices. And I read that line and I was like, well, this is a really great line because this is something that's happening to her, and that could explain why she's investigating. Maybe, for example, there's rumors that her and Tamara also heard voices. And she's like, wait, hold on. If I'm also hearing voices, then. Then I'm going to investigate. So that, to me, is a much more interesting, believable, and not at all plot convenient motivation. And I feel like that's a way stronger line to lead with. So I would lead with that line. Like, if you want to keep the intuition, fine. I don't think you should. But don't put it first. There's also a really great line that read and that someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply. Yes, please. I would like people on the island to not want her to dig because that means that there's an antagonistic force. But why did she think that? Is she getting threatening notes telling her to back off? I don't know. Did something else happen? Like, what plot point triggered this suspicion theory? I need the plot point. Or else. Because of that intuition line, I worry that, oh, God, it's all in her head. Like, part of the story. Correct me if I'm wrong. Part of the story is for sure the reader wondering how much of this is her perhaps losing her mind. How much of this is real? And that's good. Like, that can make for a great novel. But it can't be all the plot points, right? Like, it can't be all the plot points. So, anyway, I think this is really strong. I actually will disagree with Carly. We have received unanimous feedback that people love it when Carly and I disagree. So I guess I'm making people happy because I kind of like the line about inspiring. I thought it was really cute, and it personally made me think of all the author interviews you'll give one day. So I like that line. I would keep it whether you keep it or not. To be very fair, this is not going to make or break an already fantastic query letter. Again, it made me curious, which is the goal. So thank you.

[D]

One thing I wanted to add, I had a really small note in my pages and then I forgot to address it. And CeCe reminded me, which is about kind of what Cici was getting at with the intuition. And if it. I think what Cici's getting at and what she's pointing to is like, we start to get worried if it's too quiet. Right. Because it was all in her head and all in her mind. And then we're like, what? It seems like there's a lot going on in the world. But I made a note about who are the other active participants in this book. You know, like, she doesn't really talk about any friends or any characters her age, like, as a mention of cousins, as I mentioned of other people on the island. But, like, it doesn't really seem like there is a clear antagonist unless it is the person on the island who doesn't want her to dig. Who you don't name. But obviously, I mean, we're not to the pages yet. We understand there's people her age once we get to the pages. But I just wonder, are we just going to have a character wandering in an island for 300 pages? Right. Like, that was my fear. I don't think that again, based on what I've read on the pages, I don't think that would happen. But I don't know if you want to allude to in the query letter, maybe a more clear antagonist that isn't nature, that is human, and then potentially like, who she interacts with more regularly. You've already named a lot of characters. That's why I'm tiptoeing into this conversation. Because I'm like, you name the family and, you know, so they're the cousins. So I would. I would just think about if there's a way to make it seem like what she's coming up against are real things and not just in her mind.

[A]

Thank you so much, Carly. Okay, Rhiannon, we're going to pass it across to you. I'm going to ask if you can kick us off first with the titles conversation we had. And then you will welcome to answer the race or ask any questions that you have.

[B]

Absolutely. So I would actually be very interested to hear your title suggestions. This title was kind of the working title from the beginning, and I just never really quite circled around back to it with something that I liked better. So I would really be open to any and all interesting suggestions at this point.

[D]

Yeah, I think I play around with the water themes. So your comps are House of Hollow and Tide Pool, and those are much more like atmospheric titles. So I think you need a more atmospheric title. And it's hard to give you, like, notes if I haven't read the whole thing. Often what I suggest is just find, like, a turn of phrase that you really like in the book. Playing around with that character names. Play with some shorter titles, play with some longer titles. So, you know, I think you just got to give yourself the opportunity to be a bit more playful with it. But I totally understand. You're like, this is the placeholder. This is what it's been for the past two years. This is the title. But, yeah, I would think about something more atmospheric. Play with something longer, shorter turns, the phrases that you really like sometimes. I often find a title can come from, like, the last page of the book, because sometimes you're bringing your thoughts around, not always in a conclusion way, but, you know, there's a turn of phrase on that last paragraph sometimes. Cece, did you have some ideas?

[C]

I was going to say that this happens a lot sometimes. I'm reading a manuscript and there's a really great line or few words, and I highlight it and I go, this is your title. That's what happened with tell them you lied by Laura Loeffler. Like, we went back and forth in a million titles. It was at one point called the Lark, Then it was called All Americans. Then it was called, like, A Million Other Things. And we were like, we don't love the title. And then I was not even focusing on title. I was just reading the manuscript for, like, the fifth time. I don't even know. And there was a line where the protagonist said, tell them you lied. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is the title. Like, that can also be good in terms of inspiration. Don't stress in terms of, like, I have to find the title before. Like, do the. Do the edits work on the pages. Do all the organic work. As long as you think about titles for a little while, it's going to be in the back of your mind, and then your unconscious will help you.

[A]

And also for our listeners, we always appreciate your feedback. So when we advertise this on Instagram, feel free to pop your comments in there to help Brianna. Okay, Passing it back to you again.

[B]

Okay, perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that, that was all really good feedback about how to tighten up some of the details in the plot paragraph. I was, I was actually quite nervous to submit this query letter given the number of times I've heard you guys say, oh, this queer letter is too vibey. There's not enough plot points, there's vibes, but no, you know, nothing definitive. And I did kind of have the feeling that my plot paragraphs were more on the vibey end of the spectrum. My main struggle has, is just that time honored struggle of just feeling like you have too much to fit into these two little paragraphs, you know, so the, the kind of, the heart of the story is this young teenage girl.

[D]

She's.

[B]

She's an adolescent. She's sort of on that cusp between girlhood and womanhood. And not only is she kind of going through what would be sort of a normal coming of age process, you know, she's in a new place, she is surrounded by new peers. There's a potential love interest, which was the boy who, you know, briefly appears in the pages. So you've got all of that going on. But then kind of on top of that, the story is exploring a little bit the boundary between what would kind of be sort of the child, childlike imagination, magic, fantasies, versus on the other end of the spectrum, if you will, looking at it from an adult perspective. Oh, this is psychosis. This is in your mind. This is a disorder. And kind of exploring the intersection of that a little bit. And that's where you kind of get to that level of uncertainty. Are these things real? Is it in, in her mind? But then as well, you have, you have the actual antagonistic forces on the island, who again, I didn't feel like I quite had the economy of space to throw out too many details. But yeah, so just trying to fit all of that in while also having plot points, but also establishing vibes.

[D]

Rannon. I have a question about its historical nature. So one of the comps, I think was contemporary and one of them was historical. And you're calling this like, speculative. So there's some like, imagined world to it, obviously. What is the time period that you imagine, or do you leave it completely ambiguous throughout the book?

[B]

So this is set in the 90s, so the rationale behind the time setting of this is it's also exploring a little bit of the problem of ocean and marine overexploitation. So the Mara disappeared about 20 years ago, which was in the early 1970s. And that's the point in Time when overfishing really became on the popular and national consciousness for the first time. That's when you first started having seriously depleted fishing stocks and kind of this concern over, oh, hey, the ocean actually has a bottom. The ocean's resources are not limited. So that's sort of, you know, trying to be a little clever with the timing of this. And then 20 years later is where the story actually takes place from there. So this is in the 90s.

[D]

Okay. Yeah. I don't think you need to, like, point it out. Sorry, Cece, did you have a note there? I don't know if you need to, like, specify the timeline. I was just a bit curious, and I like that it's ambiguous. So I think what I read was working for me, but I just didn't.

[C]

Yeah, I wanted to address. Because you said that you were nervous about, you know, maybe having too many vibes and that the challenge was like, how do you pack vibes and plot? I don't think you do both. I think you focus on plot. The vibes are going to come naturally. Like, I think it's about substituting vibey sentences for plot sentences for the most part. Sometimes a vibey sentence can stay, but it. We're talking like sprinkles of salt. We're not talking ingredient. Plot is just what query letters need to focus on. And unfortunately, because agents are the first line of defense, we get so many submissions that don't have plot that when we read a query letter, that's all vibes, our brain goes to, oh, gosh, there's no plot in this book. Or there might be no plot in this book, because oftentimes there is no plot in the book. But sometimes. Sometimes there is plot, but then the writer just struggles to really untangle the plot points from the. The. The world. Because it is an ecosystem which absolutely, like, we empathize with. It is so hard. An example is, instead of saying someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply, say she's been getting threatening notes saying that she needs to stop digging too deeply, and you're going to make it better than what I just did now. But it's. It. Don't. Don't zoom out so much. You know, zoom in. Zoom in on the. On the plot with causality. Like, that is the job. What you can do is write another query letter from scratch, like, start. And I'm not saying that that will be the final thing you'll do. Just as an exercise, start over and make it plot. Only you're not allowed to Write vibes. You're just not. And then you'll have all the plot in one page. Right. So then you'll have two documents, and then you'll be able to, like, edit a little bit better.

[D]

I also want to reiterate, like, I think this query letter is doing its job, which is to hook agents. So I don't want you to get. And I always respect cece's illustrative advice because I think CC gives great advice, but I think this is pretty solid. So don't stress yourself out too much about, you know, tinkering with sentences at the. At the sake. For the sake of being like, I need to hold this back two months or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, if you feel like when you feel like it's ready, you've done the tinkering, you've done CC's exercise, like, be confident, because. Yeah, I don't want you to think that we are. We're. Yeah. I don't know. Just try to make you jump through hoops just to jump through hoops. I just want to let you know that you did.

[A]

We want to get to the pages before we run out of time. Was there anything else that you wanted to focus on with the query Rhiannon, before we move on?

[B]

No, I think that was perfect. That was all very helpful.

[A]

Okay, wonderful. So before we go to the pages, just a quick word from our sponsors.

[D]

Those of you that have been here for a while know I love to update you on my summer vacation travels. So I want you to know we have chosen next year's trip. We are going to Germany and Austria so we can check out the Alps. So we have some learning to do. Friends, I need to teach the kids some German too. They're obviously loving their summer Euro trips, and I really hope we can continue it as a family. As long as they want to hang out with me forever. Right? Right. Our kids are going to want to be our best friends for the rest of their lives. Yes. Yes. Yes. So imagine how much richer your life could be with travel experiences if you could speak more languages. With Rosetta Stone, you're going to gain the confidence to have real conversations and create deeper connections wherever you go. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, wherever and whenever it fits your hectic winter schedule. With 30 years of experience, millions of users, and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish. German. Yes. German can't Wait. Japanese and more Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Learn Faster, retain longer. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think, communicate with confidence. There's no English translation, so you truly learn to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. It has an intuitive learning process. You start with words, build to phrases and progress to full sentences. It's designed for long term retention so what you learn sticks with you. Learn anytime, anywhere. It fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. You can access your lessons from desktop or mobile app whether you have five minutes or an hour. And there's incredible value. You can learn for life. A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages, so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now the shit about writing Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com today and start learning today.

[A]

Right. Great. Okay, Rhiannon, can you please give us an overview of what's in those opening pages?

[B]

Absolutely. So we open with a young teenage girl, Perry, who is on board a fishing vessel bound for the island where her mother grew up. And she kind of overhears fishermen on the vessel making comments under their breath about her mother and how Perry grew up wrong on the mainland. The captain of the boat suggests that she go outside as they approach the island out on deck, which kind of takes her aback. As the boat is rolling around in the swell, he tells her to hold on tight to the railing and makes a comment that her family doesn't need to lose another girl, which kind of takes her aback. But she goes out on deck. She gets a first look at the island, which seems dark and fog swathed and very gloomy, a little intimidating. So when they pull up to the docks, there's a boy about her age there who helps tie up the boat. She's intrigued by him, but he also makes her a little bit nervous. After they tie up, the captain of the boat delivers Perry to her aunt, who's waiting on the quayside. Her aunt drives her to the family home for dinner, and as they go, Perry's reflecting that she can't believe she's here on the island. Her mother always forbade her to go there and has always said it's dangerous because Perry's mother's Twin sister. So Perry's aunt disappeared there on the island.

[A]

Okay, perfect. All right, so this time I'm handing it across to Cece first. Cece, what do you think?

[C]

I think that that description deserves a dun, dun, dun, because it's so good. Loved it. I would like to kick off again with. With. With what I feel like is a really well deserved compliment. The writing is great. Like, so great. I have a very strict policy that I do not compliment someone's writing unless it is a thousand percent genuine. Even if someone's, like, about to be destroyed in front of me, they abso need the. The compliment. They need the hope I know it will give them, I don't know, feel. I don't do it. Like, I would never compliment someone's writing unless it's genuine. And I need you to know the writing here is really strong. Like, there wasn't a single clunky sentence. There wasn't a single situation where I was like, wait, what? Like, I could see, because I paid attention, because I intentionally paid attention. I could see the care that went into it. And yet at the same time as I was reading it for the first time, it was so organic and it was just flowing and like, really, really well done. It's refreshing to see this. And thank you so much for working so hard on this. I have notes on story. The first paragraph. Lots of well written description, really strong writing, but very little through the protagonist's subjective lenses. Like, almost everything in the first paragraph is objective description. Not quite something that's like her opinion or her impression or her interpretation. And that's okay. Not my preference, but that's okay. I just feel like when I read that, I go, okay. I worry that the author isn't going to really give me access to her head and her heart. So that was something that popped in my mind after the first paragraph. When I read the line, Perry pretended not to hear their mutters. I was like, this is your first one. I think the first line should be. Perry pretended not to hear the mutters because I'd immediately go, mutters. Why are people muttering about Perry? You know, and then you can have. You can obviously play around with it. You're the author. But then you can have the description, you can have the dialogue, you can have everything else but that. To me, first of all, I love that she's pretending. I love that, you know, someone muttering about someone is obviously curiosity inducing. So I think that should be your first one. And then this is like, probably my biggest note. So these people are, as you Characterized muttering about her like she is a teenage girl alone. Think of how vulnerable she is on a boat, going to this island where all these things happened. Like this island that was forbidden for her for so long. Her dad clearly sent her there against her will, and people are muttering about her. Think of the vulnerability. My first question after reading this is, why don't we have information on whether or not she expected to be whispered about? Like, I want you to keep all the muttering, but then I want either her head to think she came prepared for a lot, but she did not come prepared for this, or this is why she didn't want to come here. She knew that there would be gossip. She didn't expect it to happen quite so soon, but she knew that this island would be invasive. Or why would her father send her to this place where he knew people would whisper about her? I don't know, but I needed her expectation. Because tension can't happen without us knowing what the protagonist's expectation is. Actually, that's not true. Tension can still happen, but it'll never be as tense as it could be without expectations. Because if you do have tension here. Anyway, it was a great detail, and I really, really, really wanted you to. To add this. When the captain told her, like, your family doesn't need to lose another girl. He's not just whispering about her, he's, like, straight up saying it to her face. And I keep coming back to that question. Was she expecting this level of invasiveness? Because I wouldn't. And if she was, what does she make of it? If she wasn't, what does she make of it? I really liked the line she missed. The weight of her father's arm around her shoulders. She wished he hadn't sent her away. It establishes she's not there by choice. It makes me curious. I would also, again, wonder, did her father know she was going to be up against these whispers all by herself? At the same time, though, when she arrives at the island, you have a line that reads, peri stared hungrily, as though she'd only have one chance to memorize the island's contours. And I'm like, wait. She doesn't want to be here, but she's staring at the island hungrily. I love the contradiction, but I wanted more. So perhaps something like, despite not wanting to be there, Perry couldn't help but be still be fascinated by the island that had haunted her childhood, or whatever the line's gonna be. But having contradiction is great, but it can't seem unintentional. And so the protagonist confronting that contradiction is a great way to ensure that it feels intentional and to give a psychological acuity. I also feel that when she meets her aunt, we are getting similar to the first paragraph description on her as a woman. She's standing under a street lamp, one arm is raised in greeting. She's wearing a neat duffel coat. Her hair is in a braided bunch of. She pulls Perry into an embrace. Good. But where's Perry's processing? Where's the interiority? Where are her opinions? Where are her interpretations? Where are her specific thoughts and feelings on Aunt Nora? Like when Aunt Nora says, you were a chubby baby and now you're all knees and elbows. Does this make her feel insecure, Embarrassed? Infantilized? Loved? Is she pleased? Was she on a diet? Something else, like, I need to know how she's receiving these comments, and that needs to be through lenses of her unique socio emotional framework. I love that she's withholding. When her aunt asks her how the voyage was, there's a line that clearly says, perry chose not to mention the things they'd said behind her back. Why not? Why isn't she sharing? Does she not trust her aunt? Does she not want to be a burden? Have recent events led her to be? You know, maybe she's determined to only be positive. You know, she's gone through things in her life and she's like, I'm only going to say nice things. I don't know what it is, but I want to know. When her aunt tells her, it'll be good for you being here, does she believe it? How does it make her feel? Does she see it as like, oh, another grown up being toxically positive? Or does she go like, yeah, I hope she's right, or something else? I guess what I'm saying is this is very, very strong. Like all the applause for the scene work, for the writing, for the character. I felt like we needed more on her emotion, more on her interiority, more on her processing sprinkled throughout. Not like an isolated paragraph sprinkled throughout. Because you really want us to connect with Perry. You know, right Now Perry's getting 30% more attention than the other characters. It needs to be like 230% more. Because we're in her head. We have access to what no one else has in the world. I remember being a kid and asking my dad, I was four, how I could possibly read other people's thoughts. Because I remember the day that I realized that the voice in my head was not unique to me, that everyone had a voice in their head. I thought it was just me. I thought I was special. I was a kid, and I was like, if everyone has a voice, that means that they might be thinking things that I don't know, and how do I find out? And so I asked my dad, like, how do you find out what other people are thinking? And he's like, there's no way. And I remember it was the first time that I asked my dad a question like, how do you do X? And the answer was, it's impossible. And I was very upset about it because it meant that all my curiosity about what people were thinking, I would never know. And so finally I discovered books. And I was like, this is how I can know what a person is thinking. And, yeah, fine, it's a fictional character, but let's be honest. Usual thoughts are boring. Fictional thoughts are usually interesting. So that's just better. So please do the magical thing of giving me access to her interiority.

[A]

Thank you so much, Cece. Okay, Kali, handing it across to you.

[D]

All right. My notes were largely the same. You're just gonna kind of see some points where I just wanted to know what she was thinking, so I'll give you some examples. And I like Cece's edits about, you know, where maybe what the first line should be. But in the first paragraph, you have. The engine coughed and rattled, the trawler creaking groan as she rode the ocean swells as though about to give up and sink beneath the waves. And right away at that point, I'm like, how does she feel about that? Is she depressed to be on this ship and want thinking about going down with the ship? Is she like, let's just get me to that land safely. I want to leave everything behind. That was the first moment where I was like, how did. How does what's happening in the universe have an effect on how she feels? And how is the reader? Can we know what emotional state is she going into this with? So I. I'm okay with a bit of withholding, but at some point, we just have to kind of start to sprinkle in the layers of, you know, what are we withholding? And why. And why does she feel that way about what she's withholding? You know, like, just do that dance with the reader. So that was kind of one of the first instances of that. I really loved all of the atmosphere, you know, from her opening the door. And then all of a sudden, it's like, you know, she's getting hit with that gust of wind and the hair is getting tangled and then it's like the smell of diesel and salts and anyway, like I just felt like you did such a great job and it really spoke to obviously your intimate understanding of, you know, how ships and all of that works. So I, I just absolutely love that. I also think these opening pages follow one of my most important rules about what an opening page should entail and that is meeting a character at the most interesting point in their. And I do truly believe that we are probably meeting this character at the most interesting point of her life. Obviously I haven't read the whole book so I think that's why these pages work is like this is a huge moment for her and it's very important that we're meeting her now. Another example of when we could know a little bit more is like when she's meeting this boy, he's like trying to get her suitcase, get her down from the ship, all of that. Foley says there's not enough for boys of his type to do anymore. Don't go falling in with his crowd, you hear? And so at that moment I wanted to know like what does happen on this island? What is she thinking happens on this island? Is she going to school? Is she going to work? And that's kind of where like the whole like speculative and historical context matters a little bit. Because not that I want to do a whole like it's going to be her first day of school tomorrow, I don't want to do that but I want to know what does she think she's doing on this island and if there's nothing for boys like him to do, an able bodied 15 year old or 18 year old, what would they for her to do on this island? And why is it important that she gets, doesn't get into trouble other than the common teenager reasons of not getting into trouble. So that was the kind of thing where you know, we could go deeper. I'm really curious about the aunt. So is this a biological and or is this an aunt by marriage? Because if she's meeting somebody from her bloodline wouldn't she be like she has the same nose as me, like I haven't seen her in 20 years or not 20. She's not 20, but you know what I mean? Like I haven't seen her in 12 years or her smile reminds me of my mom's smile or you know, the way that she did that reminded me of X. Yeah. So I just thought like if there could be some element of you know, do we look alike, do we sound alike when I heard that call that sounded like the way my dad would call my name or my mom, again, whoever this aunt is actually biologically related to. So I would just love that, like, biological thing to click in there. I think that would be great. Yeah. And other than that, I just had notes like, I love the setting work so much. So, yeah, you got lots and lots of praise for me. I thought you did a fantastic job. And I'm just echoing what CeCe said about that. Like, little bit of interiority will go a long way.

[A]

Awesome, Carly. Thank you, Rihanna. We're going to pass it across to you now. And what would you like to say? What questions do you have for us?

[B]

That feedback was all excellent, and I think I'm going to lob kind of a big picture question at you. So I've been querying this manuscript for several months now. Gotten some full requests. A lot of rejections. But some agents have been kind enough to send some personalized feedback as well, which has been fantastic. And most of the feedback I've gotten is that it's good, the writing is good, the story is good, but people aren't quite sure how they would market it or sell it or where it would fit on a shelf. And so I'm kind of at this crossroads right now. Where do I keep going ahead, querying with the manuscript as is, or I've thought about doing a full overhaul, keeping, kind of keeping the theme and the setting and some of the ideas and plot points of this story, but rewriting it with an adult protagonist and kind of transforming it more into upmarket fiction. And I know this is such a specific and manuscript specific question, but really, if you guys had any thoughts or guidelines or feedback on any of that, I would be very happy to hear it.

[D]

It's always hard when we haven't read the full manuscript to give you, like, a full analysis, my first instinct was what you were saying, which is like, do we need to add an adult POV here to layer it in a way that, you know, either makes it more of, like, a crossover or, you know, makes it very clearly for the adult market. It's very interesting. So some of what you said sounds like classic rejection letters. So it's kind of hard to be like, okay, well, you know, again, was it personalized or how much of it was unique to that, but, like, not. Not seeing where it fits in the market? Like, did some of them think it wasn't speculative enough? Did some of them think it was too historical? Did someone. Some of them think, yeah, I'm Trying to think of, like, what.

[B]

Because if it was mostly that, it's sitting at kind of an awkward place of YA, where kind of the tone and the V voice might be coming across as a little too mature for ya, but then not mature enough to be adult. So it's sort of, kind of in an awkward place.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So one of the things, and it's hard again, not having read the pages, but I wonder a little bit. We haven't seen a lot of your dialogue, and so far only the dialogue is really between the. The captain and her. And then there's obviously the aunt and her, and the only, like, teen to teen dialogue is her and the boy. So it does. I can see that analysis of, like, does that make it literary or does that meant just make it like, not. Yeah, not ya. It's an interesting question, and I think it's. It's one of those things that's hard because CC and I don't work on a lot of way. But I did just interview Katie Burnett for the podcast and I'm not sure when this is airing, so this might after air after Katie Burnett's interview. But yeah, like, one of the things that really makes something YA is that, like, intensity of that teen experience. And what you have here is a very, like, intense plot. But it does seem a bit more than coming of age. It seems more like coming of a universe, you know, coming of a world. And so in the query letter, you haven't really highlighted the interpersonal teen dynamics at all. You've only highlighted the plot dynamics. So I can see how, again, not having read the whole manuscript, but it might be a case where, you know, is it actually not ya at all? Just because she's 15? Does it need to be ya? This is an interesting question. See, I'll stop rambling. Cece, Bianca, did you guys want to chime in?

[A]

Yeah, I. I just wanted to say what's really interesting is in our upcoming deep dive, 31st of January, 1st of February, we have Chloe Sager joining us from the Madeline Milburn agency. And her topic of discussion is going to be keeping up with market trends. And especially she's going to Discuss how the YA market has changed over the last 10 years, except exploring the emerging new adult trend and the huge recent shift towards, you know, science fiction fantasy. So I think there'll be a lot of answers there for us as well.

[C]

Cece, I love that. I'm so looking forward to that session. I am actually thinking of a meeting I had just like grabbing lunch with an editor who is who just moved to a new adult imprint. And they're obviously very hungry, very hungry for new stories. You know, they're acquiring actively. New adult is a growing industry. But anyway, she was telling me that, you know, Whereas in their YA imprint they publish, I think it was about 40 titles a year. And the new adult, they started with 12, but now they're already at 24. And which is to say again, growing interest in one of the books she acquired was actually pitched as ya, but she was like, would the author be open to making this new adult? And then, you know, chatted with the agent and the author and the author was open. So can you change this to make this adult?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Can you change this to make this new adult?

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Thanks to the boundless creativity of the human brain, There are infinite possibilities that this could take. I would, however, suggest, and again, this is just my own opinion, someone who does not know the YA market, you can take it with a grain of salt. You can totally ignore me if you want. I don't think that you should change it because of what the letters are saying. Too often agents, I myself have done this. I am very confident every agent has done this as long as they've been on the market for a while. Too often we say things like, I don't know how to market at this. Not because it's a lie, but because it's an answer that is simple to give. It's still true. But there's also an and an and that's missing. And we can't get into the and. And the and could be after reading five pages and it's just five pages. I'm not connecting with your character because again, in my opinion, I'm not. Do I know the YA market? No. But I know stories. I know three things in my life. Books and chocolate chip cookies and dogs are cute. That's what I know. And this, this character is not fully developed on the page. Is it possible that as of page six, she is? Yes, but that is very rare. I've never seen that happen. Also, most people don't get to page six. Do you know what I'm saying? So I actually think that maybe make this adult. But whether you do or you don't, I still think you need to work on the connecting with character element. I hope it's okay for me to say that.

[B]

Absolutely. And good thing I'm taking your writing interiority and psychological acuity class.

[D]

Are you?

[C]

Oh, that's so nice. Oh, I would like to make it available. No, I would like to make it available to you for free. So I will reach out because you're on the podcast. You're helping elevate the communal experience. So reach out. Reach out.

[A]

Amazing. Amazing. Rhiannon, thank you so much for coming on the show and allowing us to to critique your query letter and thus make it an educational experience for all of our listeners as well. We'll be back next week with an author interview and then after that, books with hooks. You know where to submit on our website, so go over there if you'd like to be on the show. Thanks so much everyone. Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Association Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the Beta Reader Matchup is open once again, again with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the ShitAboutWriting to find out more.