Quiet Stories, Big Stakes

Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: "Quiet Stories, Big Stakes"

Date: December 11, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

In this Books with Hooks segment, co-hosts Bianca Marais, literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra, critique two listener-submitted query letters and opening pages. The episode centers around why "quiet" or "internal" stories need high stakes, how to frame them in queries, and discusses tension, character depth, and believability in manuscript openings—delivering unflinching, practical, and sometimes humorous advice for emerging writers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "All These Things That I Have" – Literary Fiction Query & Pages

Query Critique (04:54–09:16)

• Theme Heavy Openings:

  • CeCe: “You’re leading with themes… but you know, we always say on the show, lead with your hook, don’t lead with your themes.” (05:00)
  • Too many comp titles (four is excessive), and sharing point of view in the query is unnecessary; focus on the hook, not format or perspective.

• Plot Summary Strengths & Weaknesses:

  • CeCe: “Does an excellent job of telling me the protagonist’s place in the world and the inciting incident. His father died; he needs to return home.”
  • Main challenge: After the inciting incident, it's all quite internal and reflective—a ‘quiet’ story. This is fine for literary fiction, but agents need to know if that’s intentional and well-executed.

• Explicit Takeaway for Listeners:

  • “If you’re writing a quiet story, this is a good example of how to frame it... If you’re worried your story is coming across quiet, this is what makes it feel that way.” (07:07)

• Why Stakes Matter, Even in Quiet Novels:

  • Carly: “You don’t really get at, like, why he has to go home… I just want a reason… For the going home to be clear.” (08:06)

Pages Critique (09:25–16:31)

• Experimentation With Format:

  • CeCe: “I don’t think that the format of pausing the narrative to go into the screenplay is working… It felt really jarring.” (10:47)
  • When structure interrupts more than it adds, it pulls readers out of the story.

• Agent-Client Relationship Realism:

  • The agent’s motivations and dynamic felt implausible:
    • “I don’t understand why his agent is forcing him to go to the funeral… The whole dynamics didn’t feel believable.” (11:49)
    • Readers are confused instead of curious.

• Kink Shaming & Plausibility:

  • Shaming over sexual behavior felt dated and unrealistic for the LA/Hollywood setting.

• Auto-fiction Questions:

  • Carly: “This character’s name is Sal and our author’s name is Sal… Are we supposed to assume these are the same people? Is this autofiction?” (14:19)
  • Naming a protagonist after the author implies a deeper, potentially intentional, meta layer. If so, be mindful of the effect.

• Audience Fit and Timeliness:

  • Carly draws a comparison to ‘Californication’: “Who’s the audience for this book?… That show was 15–20 years old… What are we doing in 2025?” (15:44)

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2. "Three Date Minimum" – Contemporary Romance Query & Pages

Query Critique (21:48–29:04)

• Confusion Over Genre & Stakes:

  • Carly: “When romance novel pitches focus solely on the element of romance, I struggle with the pitch… I don’t actually know what’s happening with this character.” (21:58)
  • The only context beyond romance is the protagonist’s sexual assault and job threat, but the job itself isn’t defined, and how the antagonist is “targeting more women” suggests thriller or book club fiction more than romance.

• Comp Titles Should Match Genre:

  • Including Moxie (a YA novel) causes genre confusion when the book is clearly pitched as adult.

• Career & Character Depth:

  • Both agents highlight the lack of information about the protagonist’s job and passions.
  • CeCe: “Don’t just go, ‘Okay, occupation.’ It really needs to create opportunities for plot, reveal stuff about character, move the momentum of the story forward and create tension and intrigue.”
  • A character’s career should not be a throwaway detail; it’s integral for depth.

• Formatting Issue—Don’t Use Lists:

  • CeCe: “This whole list thing, this is a bad idea. Don’t put lists in a query letter… It’s unfair, it’s unjust. It is also reality.” (28:03)

Pages Critique (30:28–42:14)

• Opening Scene Structure:

  • The reader is unsure if the protagonist and Grant are dating or in a committed relationship until late in the scene, which disrupts emotional investment.

• Protagonist’s Lack of Identity Beyond Romance:

  • Carly: “I just want to know more about her. There’s just so much about all the men… I just don’t understand her at all.” (32:57)
  • Suggestion: Integrate her passion/profession into the opening; even small details related to her job would help anchor her.
  • Bianca: “We still want to show there is a part of their life that does greatly fulfill them… even if that’s not what the character is focusing on in this moment.” (35:58)

• Tension Calibration and Emotional Payoff:

  • CeCe: “Whenever a story starts with anticipation of a breakup, and the protagonist is never blindsided, you’ve robbed readers of tension… Show the blind side.” (37:09)
  • There’s praise for the protagonist’s dignified, layered external reaction during the breakup, highlighting the importance of showing internal vs. external responses.

• Advice on Revisions:

  • The hosts stress that scenes should create tension, surprise, or at least emotional engagement by subverting expectations or showing authentic reaction sequences.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Theme vs. Hook:
  • “Lead with your hook, don’t lead with your themes.” – CeCe (05:00)
• On Unnecessary Query Letter Detail:
  • “You don’t have to tell us whether the story is first person, third person… It’s just extra words in your query letter.” – CeCe (05:28)
• On Quiet vs. Big Stakes:
  • “To every listener… who is writing a quiet story, this is a good example of how to frame it.” – CeCe (07:07)
• On List Formats in Queries:
  • ”This whole list thing, this is a bad idea. Don’t put lists in a query letter.” – CeCe (28:03)
• On Character Depth:
  • “Is this character’s only goal to find a mate?... What is her passion?” – Carly (21:58)
• On Professional Authenticity:
  • “A character’s career… should create plot, reveal stuff about character, move momentum, and create intrigue.” – Bianca (29:04)
• On Tension and Surprise:
  • “Even savvy and intelligent people get things wrong. Showing blind sides is really important.” – CeCe (39:26)
• On Layered Characterization:
  • “I loved her external reaction to the breakup… You clearly have the potential for a really awesome story here. What’s missing is… tension calibration, and more layers to your protagonist.” – CeCe (41:14)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 04:54 – CeCe’s critique of “All These Things That I Have” query
• 08:06 – Carly’s additional query feedback
• 09:25 – CeCe summarizes and critiques the first pages
• 14:19 – Carly on auto-fiction and audience
• 21:48 – Carly critiques “Three Date Minimum” query
• 25:29 – CeCe’s further thoughts on query and lists in queries
• 29:04 – Bianca’s note on meaningful character occupations
• 30:28 – Carly recaps “Three Date Minimum” opening pages
• 32:22 – Carly’s critique of scene and character depth
• 37:09 – CeCe’s advice on tension, surprises, and scene payoff

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Memorable, Lighthearted Moments

• Laughing about May-December romances and “Carly’s list” of preferences. (25:29)
• CeCe and Carly joke about “kink and rehab that we all have and we’ve all been to” in fiction. (25:53)
• TikTok line dance jokes as they riff on the Dasha “Austin” song. (31:54)
• Bianca and the group’s good-natured banter about dancing skills. (32:09)

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Conclusion

This episode is packed with actionable advice on query writing, character depth, and maintaining tension in fiction—especially in “quiet” stories. The hosts urge writers to make every word in a query count, avoid confusing genre signals, flesh out character ambitions and jobs (beyond romance), elevate tension with surprise or emotional complexity, and to always consider how their choices will land with both agents and readers.

Perfect for writers honing their craft, seeking representation, or those curious how publishing pros react to real submissions—delivered with warmth, honesty, and the trademark humor of the show.

Transcript

[Bianca Murray]

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[Carly Waters]

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Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

[Host/Moderator]

Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Cece, will you please kick us off with the first query?

[Cece Lehrer]

Let's do this. Dear CeCe, I'm seeking representation for my debut novel, all these Things that I have, contemporary literary fiction. 93,000 words. A darkly comic character driven exploration of addiction, regret and reluctant redemption told in a raw, witty first person voice interwoven with screenplay entries that blur memory, dream and reality. Fans of Chuck Palahniuk's Choak and Matthew Quick's the Silver Linings Playbook will recognize the razor's edge balance of humor and heartbreak. While readers of memoirs like Nick Scheff's Tweak and David Sheff's Beautiful Boy will connect with its unflinching confrontation of trauma, family and forgiveness. When news of his father's death for Cecil De Lucia, a once best selling author turned disgraced screenwriter onto a red eye from Los Angeles to Connecticut, he has no choice but to return to the hometown he's avoided for over a decade. Broke off the wagon and on the verge of breaching his contract, Saul finds himself back in his childhood bedroom, face to face with the family he abandoned. There he collides with his estranged 17 year old daughter, Stella, a sharp, wounded rebel whose struggles echo his own. Their uneasy connection becomes both muse and mirror as Saul enlists her help to finish a long abandoned manuscript, hoping to salvage not only his career, but his fractured sense of fatherhood. But haunted by guilt over his unborn son's death, tethered to an addiction that refuses to loosen its grip, and afraid Stella is following his path. Saul must decide whether the second chance will be another spectacular failure or the first step towards redemption. I hold a master's degree in English and teach inner city high school theater in New Haven, Connecticut. My short fiction received awards and I wrote, produced and acted in the independent feature film this Wretched Life 2010. As a recovering addict of more than a decade, I feel a responsibility to tell stories that confront stigma while offering hope. Thank you very much for your consideration. Salvatore Delucia.

[Host/Moderator]

Awesome, Cece, thank you so much. So can you please first give us the word count on that and then your take on it?

[Cece Lehrer]

The word count is 322 words. Okay, my take. So.

First paragraph. Quite a bit to discuss in the first Paragraph one, you're leading with themes. You know, the first thing that you tell me about your story, in addition to the title and the genre and the word count, is exploration of addiction, regret and redemption. These are themes and these are really awesome things. Things that are really interesting and can make for awesome stories. But you know, we always say on the show, lead with your hook, don't lead with your themes. It's really important to know your themes, but don't start with that.

Further, and still on the subject of themes, when you share your comps, you are also sharing more themes that these comps are bringing to the table. Confrontation of trauma, family, forgiveness. And so again, it's just a lot of theme overload for my taste specifically. So I don't think that that's the best way to start your query letter. I also think that four comps is too much like again, you're using four and I just don't think that four are needed. I would choose the two that you feel best portray your story. And this is something that I always tell authors. And it's a small thing, but that can make a big difference. You don't have to tell us whether the story is in first person, third person, whatever person it is. It's awesome that you know that and we'll find out when we read the pages. But it's just extra words in your query letter. And again, the query letter is really precious real estate. We want to make sure that every single word there needs to be there and is in the right place. So those are my thoughts on the first paragraph. The first paragraph that tells me about the plot does an excellent job of telling me the protagonist's place in the world. You know, he was once a best selling novelist turned disgraced screenwriter. And it does a great job of telling me the inciting incident. His father died, he needs to return home. So it started off really strong after that. There are challenges to this queer letter, but I don't necessarily think they're mistakes. There is a difference between a challenge and a mistake. What are the challenges? Everything here after the inciting incident is quite internal. Him and his daughter, they have to find their way back to each other. You know, he's haunted by guilt, tethered to addiction. All of this is promising. A very internal plot, which is fine. Literary fiction can have an interiority driven plot. There are beautiful literary fiction novels out there that are exactly like this and they work really, really well. It all comes down to the execution, right? It'll depend on whether the author has really Strong writing on a line level, really strong storytelling skills. So it's not necessarily a mistake as long as the author's vision is to have a quiet story. But I am pointing this out so that the author is aware your query letter is coming off as, I am going to give you, Dear Agent, a quiet story. If that is your vision, if that matches what you're delivering, great. If it doesn't, then you have to rethink it. And to every listener out there who is writing a quiet story, this is a good example of how to frame it. And if you're thinking to yourself, oh, I'm worried that my story is coming across quiet, and I don't want that. This is an example again of how one does think a story is quiet. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

I agree with everything Cece said, so I won't rehash that. But one of the things that I think is crucial here is focusing on more of the why he's going home. Because it says news of his father's death. No choice but to return home. He ends up face to face with the family, collides with the daughter, has to finish the manuscript. But you don't really get at the, like, why he has to go home, per se. Like, is it because the father was taking care of the estranged daughter? Where's this estranged wife? I guess I want a bit of a. Like, a framing of he has to go home to close up the father's estate. You don't spell it out exactly why he has to go home so that we have, like, a bookend or on the home part. I think that, to me, would help frame this a little bit more clearly about why he's going home. Because somebody's father can pass away and then, you know, you don't go home. Right. There has to be a reason here to go home. Obviously. You know, he's broke. Maybe he has nowhere to live. He has to live in the father's house. What if he has to clean up the father's house and flip it so that he can sell it so that now he now has money to fund the rest of his writing career? Like, I just want a reason for the going home. To be clear, I have a feeling it's in the manuscript, it's just not in the query. So that's my main note.

[Host/Moderator]

Awesome, Carly, thank you. Okay, Cece, we're going to go to the pages now. Can you please let us know what's in them? And Then we'll hear your take on them.

[Cece Lehrer]

Sure. So we begin with our protagonist in the shuttle. His agent calls. It's his literary agent. And his literary agent is basically telling him, you have to go home to your father's funeral. The ticket's waiting at the airport. The agent isn't telling him that his father died. And he's saying, no, let's talk about this. And he's like, well, you were in rehab before, and the only reason why you're not in rehab now is because you're going to the funeral. Let me make this clear. The scene is interrupted. The screenplay begins. Promised in the query letter. The screenplay is essentially a sal, the protagonist in rehab. And there are people who are concerned that he tried to hurt himself, but really it was autoerotic asphyxiation. And essentially that is what happens. And then we're back to the car, and his agent says, listen, sober or not, you confess to a room full of mental health professionals that, you know, you just tried auto erotic asphyxiation. You work in this town, I work in this town. You know, you have to go home. You have to go to the funeral. And the studio is expecting a full draft by the end of next month. So that's the interaction.

[Host/Moderator]

Okay, so let's hear your take on that.

[Cece Lehrer]

So I have a few notes. The first is that I don't think that the format of pausing the narrative to go into the screenplay is working. Obviously, all of storytelling is a matter of taste, but for my taste, it felt really jarring. And especially because it was still him. It was still him in the screenplay. I was like, wait, what? And to be fair, the author was very honest with us about this. His query letter says that the screenplay entries are there, and they blur memory, dream, and reality. So for me, for my taste, that is really hard to pull off and still feel cohesive and still feel like it's an organic part of the story. And it didn't work for me. Like, the execution didn't work for me. It took me out of the scene. It didn't do the job of keeping me invested. And then my second note is, I'm just confused about him and this agent. Like, it doesn't seem plausible to me. Reading their interaction made me feel confused, not curious. Like, I don't understand why his agent is forcing him to go to the funeral. Their whole dynamics didn't feel believable. Why does the studio need him to write the script so badly? Like, writers are replaced like that in Hollywood. Maybe if he owns the rights to Something he wouldn't be. And if he's, like, super duper famous, but he's not, clearly so.

Also, was he writing from rehab? I don't know. To me, I don't think you're starting in the right place, because whenever a story starts with the conversation between two characters who are essentially talking about what happened right before, that alone is a challenge, because that's, like, catching us up. Plus, the fact that I know I'm not a literary agent in the script sense, Hollywood sense, but I don't think that this is how agents and their clients would be interacting. Like, the whole forcing him to go to the funeral, shaming him about his autoerotic asphyxiation. It's la. People have kinks. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Maybe it is. I don't know. Maybe people are prudish there. I doubt it. Like, I sincerely doubt it. Yeah, I guess everyone goes to rehab. Everyone has their kinks.

[Carly Waters]

Right.

[Cece Lehrer]

I just don't think it's that big of a deal. So, to me, I felt like I didn't believe what was happening here. And this is something that's actually really common when writers write from a place that they might want to be in, but they're not in. If someone really wants to have an agent and they really want to have a rapport with their agent, they might write a scene where the agent is acting in a certain way. But if that's not believable to someone who's reading it, someone who is an agent, then that might actually be shooting yourself in the foot. And I know different agents act in different ways, for sure. I get all that. It just, again, didn't feel believable to me.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you, Cece. I mean, in this kind of instance, that I don't think is a difficult fix, because you can always just have that they are perhaps best friends that have gone back for years, and his best friend also happens to be his agent. And so he's speaking from a place of being, his best friend who has his best interests at heart, and also being an agent. But like you say, it has to be plausible.

[Cece Lehrer]

Yes, Cece, and the author did establish that they are friends as well. I do want to make that clear. It still doesn't explain the studio thing. Still doesn't explain the kink shaming thing. You know, like the fact that someone would perhaps be more friendly and be more invasive because you're a friend. Sure. But the rest isn't head up for me, but it's me you know.

[Host/Moderator]

Right, right. Perfect. Okay, Carly, Litzy, your thoughts?

[Carly Waters]

One thing that we didn't talk about in the query letter, which I want to bring up because it's now relevant, is this character's name is Sal and our author's name is Sal. And so we didn't really talk about this in the query letter, but obviously it's bringing it around to me now, because are we supposed to assume that these two people are the same people? Is this some sort of autofiction? Or is the idea that we are supposed to wonder if it's auto fiction? Like, I'm just trying to figure out. Figure out what the layers are there, because you wouldn't name your character after yourself unless there was some intentionality about what you're trying to do there. Overall, I agree with Cece. Of course, I don't think that this screenplay interstitial is working at all. It definitely comes off as experimental and repeating itself. And I just think there's other ways to play with memory than really changing format, because that's incredibly jarring to the reader's experience of the book. This really reminded me of. And I don't know if you guys watched this at all. Californication, which was a show in, like, the 2000s, 2010s. I can't remember how old it was. This was giving me Californication vibes for sure. And it was a great show. It was also, like, pretty raunchy, you know, had its moments of ups and downs. Not very feminist at all. So, again, I'm probably not the target audience for maybe this book, which is potentially why it's not connecting with me. But I definitely wonder about.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Who the audience for this book is. If it's that Californication type of viewer slash reader, then that show did really well. That show was Also, like, almost 20 years old, I think, at this point, or 15 years old at this point. Right. So we also have to, like. We are trying to approach that lens. What are we doing in the year 2025, I guess, is what I'm getting at with this. I also had the notes about him in the agent relationship. You know, there's all of these examples in. In Hollywood, though, with, like, hacks, you know, when it's. The agent client relationship is blurred and it's for the sake of the story, of course, which we know. But we can't have it bring the reader out of the reading experience. Right. It has to be seamless, and there has to be a reason for why the agent client relationship is so personal. And but it's not impossible, that's for sure.

[Host/Moderator]

All right, thank you both. Right, before we move on to our next query, let's hear from our sponsors.

[Bianca Murray]

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[Host/Moderator]

Okay, great. Carly, will you please read us your query later?

[Carly Waters]

Dear Carly, Cece and Bianca, I can't tell you how much I have enjoyed and learned from your podcast without blowing up the word count for this letter. Thank you for this gift. 30something Attorney Stella Day is used to settling for less in relationships until she meets a younger man who wants to give her everything. But when she discovers his unwitting ties to a colleague who harmed her, she is torn between justice and the kind of love she was sure she'd never find. Three Date Minimum is a contemporary romance complete at 80,000 words. It combines the clever banter and emotional depth of Julia Whelan's thank you for listening with the female empowerment of Moxie by Jennifer Methieu Blue Eyed Stella is barreling through the dating apps. Her strategy 1. Only date men of the settling down age. 2. Avoid pesky topics like marriage and kids. 3. Hold back the ultimate man repellent a woman's tears. Stella is regrouping after another breakup when she encounters Simon at a Chicago bar. At 26, Simon is an old soul yearning for the lifelong love his Peruvian grandparents modeled, but Stella doesn't think. He checks her boxes and she's hesitant to waste time. Mixed signals between Stella and Simon lead to a disastrous start until he earnestly asks for three dates, Stella's chemistry with Simon and her pushy best friend nudge her to agree. As the dates unfold, Simon continually shows up for Stella. She begins to feel secure enough to ask for what she wants in a relationship, and she gets it. Then Stella learns the man who sexually assaulted her is connected to Simon. Blinded by unresolved pain and afraid Simon won't believe her, she determines breaking up is the only way forward. With her predator targeting more women and her job on the line, Stella will have to choose whether to speak out or continue to let fear control her. She will also have to decide if she's worthy of the deep, satisfying love she found with Simon or risk never finding it again. I'm a former elected official who turned to romance for the happy endings that were scarce in my political career. I publish a newspaper column and manage various social media channels. This is my debut novel. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely redacted.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, word count there and then your take on that.

[Carly Waters]

It came in at 355 words, minus the pleasantries, which the author subtracted for us, which was great. Okay, so.

[Bianca Murray]

So all of my thoughts here.

[Carly Waters]

I have a lot of thoughts about this. I actually. I think I've told you guys before, I usually read everything right before we record. I actually started reading this last night because I had a busy morning, and I was trying to sit with it a little bit and kind of, like, figure out what my thoughts were on it because it took. Sometimes as an agent, I do this thing where I've talked about this before on the show where I'm very lucky. I just get to scroll through query letters and, you know, this is for me. This isn't for me. And on the show, it forces me to think about why this isn't for me and maybe what's not working. I think what I was stumbling with and I was. It kind of came to me before we started recording is when romance novel pitches focus solely on the element of romance alone and only focus on the A plot. I struggle with the pitch because I don't actually know what's happening with this character. And if I don't know who this character is, then how can I frame the romance around the contextuality of her life? And so really, the only contextual information we get is that this character was sexually assaulted. Sexually harassed, I think is the word. The man who sexually harassed her. That's kind of the only framing information we have with this character. We learn that, you know, she might lose her job. I don't Know, I just want to know, like, what is the job? Like, what is her passion? Because it comes off in this pitch, and this happens in a lot of romance pitches, that this character's only goal is to find a mate, and this character's only goal is to find a partner. And for me, I really like when the query letter can focus a little bit more on what this character has going on in their life so that we can understand how the romance fits within the larger structure of what they want. I really like in this query letter that there's like, potentially like, a May December thing going on in terms of, like, a younger man. I love that. I think that's super interesting. I just want to know a bit more what is happening in her life. Again, what is her job? Because we get to the point here in the query letter, which I was like, whoa. With her predator targeting more women and her job on the line, I was like, whoa. Like, is this a thriller? What do we mean by targeting? And her job is on the line. What is her job? I'm scrolling around as I'm reading here, trying to figure out if we ever hear what her job is, but I don't think that we. I don't really think that it's spelled out what her job is. Right. So if her predator is targeting more women, is this a thriller? What kind of targeting are we talking about? Because I actually feel like if I. If I saw this query and I. And it didn't say contemporary romance, I actually wouldn't think this would be a romance novel. I would actually think this is a book club novel or something that's like, trying to create a conversation around something larger. And it happens to use romance as the vehicle of the. A plot of, like, what we're trying to do here. So I think this. Either this book is a little confused or this query letter is a little confused. I haven't been able to deduct which one because I need to, you know, think on it a little bit more. But unfortunately, when we're reading query letters as agents, we. We don't noodle as much as I've been noodling on this question query letter. So I, again, if this was pitched to me, I actually wouldn't call this a romance. But again, it's. It's hard for me to say. So I feel like this is a teensy bit confused. The other thing that's confusing here is the Comps Moxie by Jennifer Matthieu is a YA novel. This isn't. That isn't an adult Novel. So that's why I'm like, this book feels very confused to me. Very interesting. As I said, I love a May December story with an older woman, younger man. Sign me up for that. But other than that, I'm like, I'm really trying to figure out what this book is. And it's not that it's not interesting, but my job is I do have to kind of put this in a box, and I haven't really been able to figure out what it is, unfortunately. So that is my take, and I'll turn it back over to you ladies.

[Host/Moderator]

Awesome. Thanks, Carly. Okay, Cece, over to you.

[Cece Lehrer]

I love how there are listeners who are probably keeping a list of the things we are most into. And with Carly's list, they just added older woman, younger man.

[Carly Waters]

Check.

My husband is two weeks younger than me. Okay. My husband is two weeks younger than me.

[Cece Lehrer]

Two weeks counts.

[Host/Moderator]

That counts. And earlier, they were getting CC kinks and rehab that we all have and we've all been to. Check.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah.

[Cece Lehrer]

No kink shaming. No kink shaming. I'm saying no to kink shaming. Let people be happy, Consenting people be happy. Okay. I agree with everything Carly said. I thought that was actually so brilliant about the A plot and the B plot. And it is exactly what is missing here. I hadn't put my finger on it, so. Right. I understood what was missing for me as I was hearing you speak, Carly. So 1,000% agree. I also think I kind of wanted to know, how is he connected to Simon? Like that to me, was vague. Connected to Simon Howe. Something I really loved about this query letter, which I'd like to highlight, is the first line of the author paragraph, which reads, I am a former elected official who turned to romance for the happy endings that were scarce in my political career. Not only is that an adorable line. Love it. But also, what if the author is channeling that right, is tapping into that experience, and this person's job is the same or similar? You know, what if we're talking about a romance that's kind of like West Wingy walk and talk fast, you know, filled with political intrigue and that really strong B plot. If that is you, then I think that you're doing yourself a disservice by not highlighting that in your query letter, because it can be so much more exciting. And I know, I know word count. Someone's probably going, well, you're saying it has to be under 300 words. And how are we supposed to do that? They don't know. I don't know. That is not my job to tell you. But I do think that we need to know more about her profession, especially if it's going to be a really cool profession. That's going to make me, make me see this. These two sides of her, you know, her cynical political side, but then also her romantic, you know, believing in love side. That's really interesting. Contradictions are really interesting. So that's very exciting to me. Something else that I will say as a very minor, that thing that could actually be major. Don't like what this says about people in my profession, mine and Carly's profession. But agents sometimes will kind of gloss their eyes over a query letter, and if something isn't looking right, they might not even read it.

[Host/Moderator]

Sorry.

[Cece Lehrer]

It's just the reality of life. And one of the things that agents are kind of on the lookout for. Carly and I don't do this, by the way, guys. Okay, but like, you're going to query this widely, right? This whole list thing, this is a bad idea. Don't put lists in a query letter. One, two, three. We get a lot of query writers that go, this is why you should buy this book. 1. And then there's delusional reason number one. 2. Delusional reason number two. 3. Delusional reason number three. It's going to be bigger than Jurassic Park. I know that's not what you're doing. I know that's not what this list is doing. But our eyes reading queries in batches could very easily go delusional format. Listicle thing. Don't do it. You can keep the listicle format, but make it in paragraphs. You know, you know, her strategy is to only date men of the settling down age, avoid pesky topics and hold back on blah, blah, blah. Great format. Format your query letter in a way that reads like a pitch copy in the back of a book. Very important. It's unfair, it's unjust. It is also reality. We like living in reality on this show. So there you go.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you, Cece. Yeah. For those of you who subscribe to our substack, you will be able to see the actual query letter and how the list is in there so that you can see what CC is referring to. And something else I just want to add here is that we've actually had quite a few conversations recently on the podcast in our author interviews about choosing occupations for your characters that are not just some background thing, just something for them to do. Because an occupation says so much about who a character is, it should create Plot point elements. I was chatting with Hannah, Mary McKinnon, and we were talking about how she gave her character completely different occupation. And then her agent was like, no, no, you. You've made this way too complicated. You've created that. This person makes mystery boxes that they send to people, and people need to try and figure them out. And the agent was like, just make her a podcaster. And Hannah was like, oh, my God, yes, a podcaster. And it made so much sense in the context of the story that I couldn't believe that she hadn't just started with the podcaster. So, so important. Don't just go, okay, occupation. It's so and so. It really needs to create opportunities for plot, reveal stuff about character, move the momentum of the story forward and create tension and intrigue, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, Carly, we're handing across to you now. Will you tell us what was in the opening pages?

[Carly Waters]

Absolutely. Those are great notes from Bianca, and I'm going to come back to that with my analysis. So we start with our main character sitting across from Grant. They are seem like on some sort of date or just like, outing as a couple. They are having a drink together. We know that they're in Chicago. She talks about kind of like her dating app experience. And then obviously, being with Grant, we learn that they are moving in together. And then she's surprised that he hasn't started packing yet. And then he says, okay, made me realize maybe I'm not sure we're ready to take this step. And so she's like, whoa, this is a huge piece of information. So they kind of feel like they're maybe not ready. It's. It's one of those things where it's like, who breaks up with who? I don't know. But they essentially, they break up. She's very caught off guard. They part ways. She says goodbye, throw some money on the table, texts a friend, being like, we just broke up. She goes from sitting at the table to sitting at the bar, and then kind of waits for a bartender to serve her. And apparently, as she's, like, sitting there waiting for her next drink, somebody is, you know, coming to flirt with her and the bartender just kind of warns her. And that is where it ends.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you, Carly. That brought to mind immediately the song Austin by Dasha. There's the lyrics that goes, got a hunch down in my gut and snuck around the back empty cans and I'll be damned, your shit was never packed. It gave me strong Dasha vibes, which I really like. Okay.

[Carly Waters]

So the TikTok dance. Now there's a TikTok dance with that song, isn't there? Where they hit the boo. That's the. If you. I mean, I'm not huge on TikTok, but if you've seen the video where people are, like, slapping their boots, doing a little bit of line dancing, that they do that to that song. So get your boots, Bianca, you have to dance now.

[Cece Lehrer]

You have to dance.

[Host/Moderator]

Nobody wants to see me dance. I can promise you.

[Cece Lehrer]

Everybody wants to see you dance.

[Host/Moderator]

No one wants to see me sing or dance. Okay, so let's change the subject. Carly, what was your take?

[Carly Waters]

Well, unfortunately, they don't line dance, but okay. So coming back to what Bianca was saying about the career, like, to me, that was just so important, and it really just shines through in this because it seems to me, again, this book seems so focused on finding a man, finding a partner on the dating apps. Is this my person? You know, I'm 34. I'm swiping a very, like, dating culture entry point. I was actually shocked when I got to the end of the first page to realize that these two were actually in a relationship. I thought they were just on, like, a random date, the way that they're interacting with each other actually. And then it was like, were moving in together.

[Bianca Murray]

What?

[Carly Waters]

I don't know.

[Host/Moderator]

It.

[Carly Waters]

I just didn't really feel like the entry point of talking about the swiping and the dating framed it that. That I understood that these two are actually in a long term committed relationship. It doesn't really say, I don't think how long that they've been together before, unless I missed it. But they go from, like, talking about dating to, you know, all of a sudden they're not moving in together. He's 45, she is 34. We understand that. Anyway, basically, I just feel like I don't know anything about her because she goes from, she talks about Grant, and then she talks about Ryan, trust fund baby, passionate about weaving and drum circles. Travis, uptight logistics coordinator, you know, runs through her dating history, gets to Grant, and I still don't know anything about her. She throws the money down on the table, talks about how they're gonna, you know, split up their belongings, and then she's like, off to the bar to sit down and have a drink. All of this is very normal. I'm not saying none of this is, like, out of the ordinary, but I definitely feel like in this day and age, especially when a woman thinks about. Especially a character, female character, right? Like, thinks about their identity. Their identity isn't just as like a dating person. It feels very much like I'm just seeking somebody to complete me. Whereas again, I know some people definitely feel this way, but maybe I just feel so strongly about my career, in my passion, that I know so many women feel like their identity is so tied up in who they are that no mention, like, there's a mention of a friend, which is great, but there's no mention of career or like, goals. And again, it could be she doesn't, you know, not everybody has to have a goal and a career and a passion. But I'm like, everybody's passionate about something. And the fact that this, this is coming off as if this character is only passionate about finding their partner. And I think that's where I'm struggling. And I just want to know more about her. Her, because there's just so much about all the men. There's, you know, commentary on Grant, every man she's dated, what the bartender looks like. And I just don't understand her at all. And it just feels. It's just not sitting right with me just to not know her. Because my point of view as a female reader reading this romance novel, I'm going to want to associate my experience with the female character. And I just can't place myself or contextualize her at all. Yeah. So anyway, that's where I'm struggling.

[Bianca Murray]

I just want to know what her deal is.

[Carly Waters]

Why does she want a man so bad?

[Bianca Murray]

You know what, why can't we, like.

[Carly Waters]

Why can't we just figure out, maybe this isn't the right time for her?

[Bianca Murray]

Or.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm just struggling. And maybe this just. Maybe this is just a sign that this isn't starting in the right place. Because it just comes off a little bit rom comy to me, or just again, so focused on.

This is the only way out or this is the only version of my self expression. And as a female reader, that's just, I don't know, not the right book for me, maybe. But anyway, I'll end there because I don't think I'm editing anything else to the conversation. So, cece, what did you think?

[Host/Moderator]

Just before we go across to cece, what I'm thinking as an author is that this person might be focusing on the aspect of this character's life that they are dissatisfied with. So it may be that they have a very satisfying career and therefore that's not on their mind. And so what they're really focusing on is the part of the life that they're dissatisfied with, but that might be a mistake. So in case that. That is something that the author is doing, you know, we still want to show that there is a part of their life that does greatly fulfill them and satisfy them, but this is the one aspect that they're not satisfied with.

[Bianca Murray]

I don't know.

[Carly Waters]

I agree with that. And I was just. I was just gonna say, like, to chime in on that, like, what I was looking for. I agree with you. That would have been fine. What I was looking for was something even, like, for example, like, I'm just looking at the first page, right? It says, grant stares at a drained glass where a curl of orange peel sits atop sad, melting ice cubes. Maybe she's a furniture designer. And she's like, I can't believe Grant is letting that you know, that condensating glass. Condensating is a word. The glass with condensation on this walnut table. He knows that you use a coaster when you. You know what I'm trying to say. Like, there just has to be something that relates what is happening in this scene to a passion of hers. And, yeah, I agree with everything Bianca said.

[Host/Moderator]

Okay.

[Cece Lehrer]

Cece definitely won't echo that so that we talk about new things. I agree, though. I agree with everything that's been said. So my. My big note is this. I am sure that this writer wants these pages to have a lot of tension. I know this because every writer wants their pages to have a lot of tension, as they should. Tension is very important. And right now, you have framed this breakup in a way where tension is leaking. I want you to picture a bowl of water. That's your story. And I want you to picture a faucet that's open, right? That's the tension. So the water is going inside the bowl of water. The water is tension. The bowl of water is your story. Technically. Technically, a breakup scene, great opportunity for tension. But because of the way it's been framed, it's like there are little holes underneath the bowl where all the tension is leaking. It's not working. What are the holes where tension is leaking? It's the fact that she can anticipate what's coming. This starts with, I've been here before. Too many times to count. We get visuals on Grant, and then she thinks to herself, I sense what's coming. And then he breaks up with her. He says, I'm not sure we're ready to take this step. Or he initiates the breakup. And when I read that I was like, I'm not surprised. You know why I'm not surprised? This reader? Because she's not surprised as a protagonist. So you have essentially stripped this of the element of surprise by having her correctly anticipate what is about to happen. A lot of people think that if they have their protagonist anticipate what's about to happen, they are showing that their protagonist is savvy and intelligent. And yes, we all want savvy and intelligent protagonists, but actually, even savvy and intelligent people get things wrong. And showing blind sides is really important when showing intelligent and savvy people. She should be convinced that something is wrong and that he is about to say something, because she is per. But she should not be guessing correctly. In her mind. His stuff is packed and he's about to say something else. Something specific, something intelligent, something that hopefully zooms out and shares more about both of their lives, both of their jobs, everything else, right? And then when he says, I'm just not sure we're ready to take this step, maybe she even misunderstands. Maybe she thinks it's the step about, I don't know, xyz, whatever it is. And she's like, wait, what are you talking about?

[Carly Waters]

You know?

[Cece Lehrer]

And he's like, no, I mean our relationship. And then it would be like, wow. She would be shocked. The reader would be shocked. And even if the reader was like, I could see it coming because of the jacket copy or the tone of the book, that's fine. When the reader and the protagonist aren't perfectly aligned, that's actually super interesting and could be a source of tension, too, because the reader is going, no, no, she doesn't see it. And so we're rooting for her. We have that emotional investment. It's actually really important. I will say this. I loved her external reaction to the breakup. When he gets up and he puts money on the table and she decides to be super dignified about it, she's like, nope, I'm going to treat this. I'm going to treat this in a very professional manner almost. I liked the difference between what was going on in her interiority, where she was breaking, but she didn't show it. And that, to me, is a sign of an author who knows what they're doing. Because it's really important for your interiority to show something that's different from what's happening on the outside, whether it's an extra layer or a contradiction or something else. But you did that, and that was awesome. And just as a woman, I was like, you go, girl. You know, like, I love this. I love this. Thank you so much. Thank you for, you know, being strong enough to do that. So, yeah, I really, really liked that she was keeping. Keeping her cool. I will say this, though, about her reaction, which, again, I liked when she says, I have a few of your things at my place. I'll ship them to you. If you could do the same, that would be appreciated. I'll go ahead and take my keys now. Again, she's being super strong. What we get after that? The line right after that is him fishing the key out of his wallet. That, to me, is a mistake. The line right after that needs to be her tracking his face, her tracking his body expression, her tracking anything in him. Why? Because the reader wants that payoff. You've created a scene that's actually very satisfying. You've created a scene where it's like, yes, show him. Show him that you will not be broken in front of him. Rooting for her, invested in her. And I want the payoff. I want his reaction. I want his surprise. And it's not that we don't get any hint of a surprise. We do, but it's in the wrong place. And it's not enough. I want more. And I did highlight our substack. Subscribers will see it. I highlighted all the instances where I was like, this is where you write this. This is where you write that to give us that payoff. To give us that payoff. And when you did, it was really good. There's a line that reads, this gives me a tiny measure of satisfaction, but then I feel ashamed. Again, layers of emotions. So excellent. Like, you clearly have the potential for a really awesome story here. I think what's missing is the tension calibration. And again, more layers to. Right. To your protagonist. But overall, great job.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you. Cece, I loved what you said there about blind sides, because I think about. I don't watch a lot of reality television, but when I watch Survivor or something like Traitors, my favorite part is always the blind side. And there'll be some character who's telling, you know, the producers how they're in charge of everything, and they've got everybody under their control and they know the vote's going to go their way. And then suddenly there's the blind side. And you can see the shock on this person's face when they thought that they were running the show and they weren't. And that always is my favorite part of reality shows is that kind of tension. So something for all of us to keep in mind. Okay, so next week we're back to our author interview and we'll be back in two weeks time with another Books with hooks. Thanks so much Carly and Cece. See you again soon. Bye.

[Bianca Murray]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the Beta Reader Matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the ShitAboutWriting to find out more.