Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit – About Agent Burnout and the Problems Facing Small Publishers & Booksellers
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra
Date: December 1, 2025

Main Theme / Purpose

This candid episode features literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra "shooting the shit" about the current state of the publishing industry. Key focuses are agent and industry burnout, the precarious economics of small publishers, and the unseen power and gatekeeping realities of booksellers and book buyers. The discussion is peppered with industry insights, memorable anecdotes, and practical advice for writers navigating this ever-changing landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Agent Burnout and Managing Energy

[03:31–11:58]

• After a hectic fall reading season (Carly estimates reading 25+ books in 10 weeks), burnout becomes an unavoidable topic.
• CeCe's take: Burnout is universal but unique in creative industries. For her, managing energy (not just time) is crucial:

  “It's actually not so much about time, at least not for me. It's more about energy. Like, what are the things that drain me? What are the things that re-energize me?” (CeCe, 05:21)

• Carly’s perspective: As a working mom and agent with 60 clients, feeling constantly needed is draining. Her only "me time" is working out:

  "People need me all the time... that's the only time. That is my time." (Carly, 08:27)

• Reading for pleasure vs. work: Both agents share how reading, once a solace, can become part of the burnout cycle when it feels like more work. Carly even admits to shifting to magazines, long-form articles, or YouTube essays for downtime.
• Insight for writers: Burnout solutions are individual—what works for others may not work for you.

2. Psychology of Introverts, Extroverts, and Ambiverts

[06:49–13:37]

• CeCe identifies as a massive introvert, while Carly leans ambivert—even noting how adapting to different environments is one of her superpowers.
• The distinction: Being able to present or socialize isn't about introversion or extroversion, but about how one recharges.

3. Small Publishers: The Economics and Author Migration Dilemma

[13:37–19:43]

• Discussion of a Walrus article ("How the Fight to Save Canadian Publishing...") highlights how small, independent publishers often lose successful authors to larger houses due to financial necessity.
• Memorable quote:

  "The ironic curse of small publishing houses is always that the better they are at launching and nurturing talent, the more such risk taking pushes them into the wilderness of lost authors."
  (from Scott McIntyre, cited by Carly, 15:29)

• Both hosts defend agents' role in advocating for authors’ advancement and better deals, clarifying that ambition (not agents) drives authors’ moves.

4. Finances and Risk in Publishing

[17:38–19:43]

• Publishers, large and small, often survive on the success of a single "rescuer" title each year.
• Publishing works like a venture capital model—lots of investment, few big winners.

“One of the themes of this article is like, how many times can luck, decisive behavior and perfect timing save this publisher and save the business and save the industry?” (Carly, 18:16)

5. The Power and Process of Book Buyers

[23:28–31:28]

• Who is a book buyer? Not just readers, but industry professionals who decide which titles make it into stores—wielding huge unseen influence.

• Book buyers (e.g., for bookstores, Target, Barnes & Noble) routinely review 40k–50k titles/year—requiring snap judgments based on track record, comps, buzz, and marketing plans.

  • Quote:

  “There are over 14k individual titles in these publisher catalogs combined... I see between 40 and 50,000 individual book titles every year. This is obviously an impossible number for any person... to read.” (Carly, 24:55)

• Takeaway for writers: Building genuine relationships with local booksellers matters—supporting stores, engaging locally, and not just expecting automatic stocking.

• Build relationships with stores:

  “Something that can really make a difference in your career... is building relationships with bookstores... Are you visiting independent bookstores? Are you building relationships with booksellers?” (CeCe, 27:13)

• Most debuts (even successful ones) see only 1–2 copies in chain stores. Don’t despair—this is the norm.

6. Are There Too Many Books? The Curation Challenge

[29:35–33:17]

• Controversial take from the Countercraft substack article:

  "50,000 new books a year in the United States alone... I think that number should be halved." (CeCe quoting, 29:35)

• Both agents acknowledge the overwhelming volume of titles, many of which look and feel similar, making curation critical at every level—publisher, bookseller, agent.
• Debate: Do we need fewer books, or just more readers? The answer isn’t simple.
• The industry is personality and relationship-driven:

  "I always just come back to how relationship business oriented this is..." (Carly, 32:07)

7. Relationship Building and the Value of Writers' Conferences

[33:17–36:53]

• Building connections in publishing is about planting seeds, often unseen at first, but vital for long-term success.
• Writers' conferences are excellent spaces for finding community, industry contacts, and those “lucky breaks.”
• CeCe: Even agents benefit, and sometimes gossip and real human stories are the best industry education.

8. Publishing Gossip, Professional Boundaries, and Self-Awareness

[36:53–40:33]

• The hosts share lighthearted personal anecdotes about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans at conferences (hot tub drama, publishing affairs), revealing the surprisingly colorful side of the industry.

• They humorously discuss personal quirks and professional boundaries (e.g., not swimming at conferences), reminding listeners that agents are people too.

  “I don’t think I need all the writers in the world to see me in my bathing suit. Call me crazy.” (Carly, 37:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Balancing reading for pleasure and work:
  “The thing that recharges me is reading, but my work is reading. So how do you reconcile that?”
  — CeCe Lira, [05:03]

• On agent roles:
  "We facilitate the free market part of capitalism and publishing."
  — Carly Watters, [16:27]

• On moving from small to big publishers:
  "In a world of ambition, it is inevitable. The man needs to edit his sentence."
  — CeCe Lira, [17:30]

• Publishing as luck and risk:
  "Luck, decisive behavior and perfect timing had won again."
  — Scott McIntyre (quoted by Carly), [18:07]

• Book buying realities:
  “This isn’t an art gallery... The goal is consumption. So we’re hoping that somebody buys that copy and then they order another one.”
  — Carly Watters, [28:55]

• On too many books:
  “There are too many titles out there. It's an ocean of titles. And so not every book makes it.”
  — CeCe Lira, [28:37]

• Fun conference wisdom:
  “I don't go into the swimming pool at the writers conference... there's some sort of professionalism where it's like, I don't think I need all the writers in the world to see me in my bathing suit.”
  — Carly Watters, [37:24]

Important Timestamps

• Agent Burnout & Energy (03:31–11:58)
• Introverts, Extroverts & Work Styles (06:49–13:37)
• Small Press Economics & Author Migration (13:37–19:43)
• Curation and Book Buyers’ Power (23:28–31:28)
• Too Many Books? (29:35–33:17)
• Relationship Building & Conferences (33:17–36:53)
• Publishing Gossip and Life Lessons (36:53–40:33)

Tone

Conversational, funny, honest, and deeply knowledgeable. The hosts balance industry reality checks with warmth and actionable advice, ensuring writers are well-informed but never discouraged.

Takeaway Advice for Writers

• Pay attention to your own burnout signals.
• Accept the realities of market saturation and limited shelf space.
• Relationship-building matters at every stage: with agents, booksellers, publishers, and community.
• Celebrate each small win; getting a single copy into a bookstore is a major accomplishment.
• Industry success is slow, nonlinear, and deeply connected to chance, timing, and persistence.

For more, listen to the episode and follow both agents on social media for further tips and behind-the-scenes insights.