Carly Waters (2:08)

No, it was so cold. It was so cold. I know we were going to, but we don't have any winter jackets because we came from a warm weather vacation and I didn't want to make them stand out in the cold. But yeah, no, they had a good time. Took off looking at the CN Tower. So anyway, we are home. They didn't go to school today and.

Narrator (2:23)

My saint of a husband is hanging out with them.

Carly Waters (2:24)

While I caught up on a lot of work I to dig out of a bunch of emails. I had 240 emails waiting for me. But I did a little bit of reading for fun on my trip, which was good. I wrote down my list so I didn't forget. So I've read. Well, I started the Correspondent. I don't know Cece, if you've read the Correspondent, it's an epistolary novel.

Cece Lira (2:42)

Yeah, Amy told me all about it. Like the, the success story. It's awesome.

Carly Waters (2:46)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's one of those like word of mouth books which is fantastic. So yeah, epistolary novel. And I'm excited to kind of get back into it. But I, I normally don't like epistolary novels because I feel like they're like trying. But yeah, so I'm gonna go back and finish that one. I read Heart of the Lover, I read the Irish Goodbye and then I'm still working through the sequel to Heated Rivalry which is called the Long Game. And so yeah, that's, that's all the reading I got up to.

Cece Lira (3:14)

Fun stuff. I love your vacation reading. Vacation reading is special. Do you not look at your inbox at all or do you like filter it like while you're away? Tell us the truth.

Carly Waters (3:25)

Oh yeah. Over the. So for many years I didn't take a vacation. I was like, I'm not allowed because I need to be at my desk. Because if an offer comes in then I have to be here as my, you know, so I did take a vacation for years. If I did take a vacation, I wouldn't even put it out of office for years because I was like, what if the offer comes in or the contract? I don't want somebody to think I'm not working anyway. Yada, yada, yada. And then I started putting it out of office on once I had kids because like I truly was out of office. Like I can't, you know, be on vacation with them and tend to emails.

Cece Lira (3:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Carly Waters (3:54)

So now what I do. So I set my own of office. I have, I have committed to that. And then I have my assistant. So in my out of office it says like how to reach my assistant, how to reach our business office for obviously, you know, anything that needs to be taken care of. And there were contracts and deal memos and Stuff that were kind of going around and authors that needed to approve their audio narrators and, like, some things that my assistant could do, some things our business office could do, and then some things, obviously, that waited for me. So I didn't do any work. But I. I mean, this is like, the happy problem, so I can brag about my job. Happy problems, which is. I had so many good news things that happened on vacation. I got multiple starred reviews for clients.

Cece Lira (4:30)

Yay.

Carly Waters (4:30)

I got to announce a book deal. There was just all this other stuff kind of coming in that was just really nice. And my client, E.J. dixon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, got mentioned worker. Yay. I know. So EJ was mentioned.

Podcast Host (4:44)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (4:44)

One Bad mother.

Cece Lira (4:45)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (4:46)

Was mentioned in the New Yorker. As they, like, best books of 2026 so far. Anyway, so just so many, like, good work things were happening while I was off. So it also makes me feel good to be off because I'm like, I earned this. But then I'm like, do I have to earn a vacation? You know, all of that mental gymnastics that we do. Anyway, I am tired. I have been on a journey. I also watched The Pit Season 2. I don't know if you watched. Did we talk about this at all? Yeah, so I've seen the first three.

Cece Lira (5:10)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (5:10)

Yeah. Okay, perfect. So I caught up on that. And yeah. So what have you been up to, Cici? While I blather on about my travels.

Cece Lira (5:17)

I mean, all the work stuff, all the amazing work stuff, that's so much fun because we do have the best jobs. And so I will not be complaining. I know what it's like to have a job that I am not enamored with, but in terms of storytelling that I'm enjoying, I watched Ponies TV show. So the premise is two women living in Moscow during the Cold War. They are wives, two men who clearly work for the CIA. But, like, they're not supposed to say that. And first episode, I'm not ruining anything. The husbands die and they become like spies, but they have no training. But, you know, through a mixture of their education, their street marts, and, let's face it, the fact that they're women and they are used to inhabiting a world that doesn't belong to them. It's so cool. I've only seen a few episodes. Like, it's not like a show that you can binge because not all episodes are available yet. No, it's not even that the episodes aren't available yet. Oh, I could totally do the heavy part. Eight hours a Thousand percent. Like, I just don't sleep. You know this about me. I don't sleep. So, like, I watch it, but they're not available. So I am really loving it. Some great acting. I'm also really excited to watch Stolen because there's Sansa there, and I love Sansa from Game of Thrones. I should know her name. I don't also, and I know I'm probably going to get canceled for saying this. Like, no one's allowed to make a reel out of what I'm about to say. I watched the first episode of Heated Rivalry. I didn't fall in love with it. Like, it wasn't bad by any means. It's a perfectly lovely love story. But, like, I don't get it. I don't. I have to watch more. I have to watch more. Does it get better?

Carly Waters (6:52)

Okay, so I will defend what you probably didn't like. I'm just gonna go out there on a limb. What you probably didn't like was, like, the choppiness of the storytelling. Because it was like six months, two months, one year. Choppiness. Yeah. So that. So I mean, I've seen some theories online.

Cece Lira (7:05)

I kind of wanted the. The yearning to build. I didn't want it to be, like, fast forwarded because yearning. Yearning is why we watch these shows.

Carly Waters (7:13)

I know, I know. So this again, I find the show really follows the book. So it is very, like, honest to the books and the way that they're written. Okay. And how often they would see each other is just realistic. But I did also see something about how it's, like, really choppy at the beginning as they're kind of unsure of the love story, you know, and their connection. And then it starts to get longer and longer as the yearning builds. So it's kind of also a metaph before the yearning. So you kind of gotta, like, make your way through the choppiness. So I would say give it one more episode. And then the choppiness starts to kind of relax a little bit and they settle in.

Cece Lira (7:46)

I apologize to all, all our listeners who are obsessed. I want to be honest. I again, did not think it was bad at all, but I wasn't, like, addicted to it. I always know if something's good or not if I feel the pull of the story. Like, I start reading a manuscript and I have to do something else because life goes on, whether it's work life or life life. And in the back of my mind, I'm going, I really want to get back to that manuscript. Or I really want to get back to that TV show, or I really want to get back to that book, or. And if I'm not feeling that pull, then, to be honest, like, I have so much storytelling in my life available as work that, you know, then why would I. Why would I keep watching it? But with. With heated rivalry, it's such a phenomenon, and I want to understand. So I will watch one more episode. And then, too, another thing that I did. Bianca and I got dinner, and I have a friend, my best friend. Her name is Kayleigh. She has a very good friend. Her name is Kim. And So for Kim's 50th birthday, my friend Kaylee wanted to get her all of Bianca's books signed. And so it was so sweet. Like, I made sure to get, like, a copy of all four books and have Bianca sign them, write little notes. And my friend Kaylee, because, again, she doesn't work in publishing, she knows about what I do because I mentioned it, but she's like, oh, so how much do authors charge for this? And I'm like, no, you don't understand. Like, you've just made her day. You purchased four copies of her books and asked her for her autograph and a little note, and she's like, well, no, it's a service. I have to pay. And I'm like, haley, no, you're not allowed to pay for this. Thank you. It's so kind and generous and thoughtful, but you're not allowed to pay. She's like, well, but. But. But, you know, it's. It's so cool that she would do this, that she would take time out of her day. And I'm like, I don't think people, regular people, non publishing people, understand how much authors love. Find me an author who doesn't love it when someone's gifting their book in this milestone birthday. Oh, my gosh. Like, it's. That is the gift, right? That is the gift to the author.

Carly Waters (9:39)

So, yeah, I know way back early in my career, I was like, oh, I'm gonna get every client of mine to sign the first edition of their book. And then that lasted, like, one book, and, like, life goes on and it gets busy. But I do have a couple ones where I'm like, yeah, the clients have signed up for me, because I always.

Cece Lira (9:52)

Feel like I'm acknowledgements.

Carly Waters (9:55)

I know, I know.

Cece Lira (9:56)

Yeah. Which is.

Carly Waters (9:56)

Which is always really fun. Yeah.

Cece Lira (9:58)

So what my sister does whenever I have a new book out, she always skips to the acknowledgments. And I'm like, you have to read the story first. She's like, no, this is the most important part for me.

Carly Waters (10:06)

Oh, I love it when people. When people are proud. Yeah. Okay, where do you want to start? So I am so tired that CeCe is going to have to take the reins on this episode. So you boss me around.

Cece Lira (10:16)

Yes, yes. Yes, ma'.

Carly Waters (10:17)

Am.

Cece Lira (10:18)

You boss me around. She said bossingly. I mean, the first thing we should just mention, we don't really have any news on this, like official articles or anything, but there are layoffs going on. The beginning of the year is usually when we get information on who got promoted, which is always fun. Like, I love hearing about everyone who got promoted. People sometimes move and they wait until now to announce. And that's exciting. But at the same time, there have been talks about layoffs at major publishers, which is a bummer.

Carly Waters (10:45)

Yeah.

Cece Lira (10:46)

Which is really sad. Way more than a bummer, actually. And yeah, hopefully, hopefully it won't be like mass layoffs, and hopefully it won't be across the board.

Carly Waters (10:53)

But at the time of recording, SNS is the one that we have some more firm knowledge about. But, you know, it happens and it's part of corporate culture.

Cece Lira (11:01)

But there are rumors about, you know, let's not mention it without knowing for sure. But there are rumors about others, too. Anyway, it's not. Not fun. Hopefully it's not a big deal. Okay. Canadian bestseller lists. You made a note that you wanted to talk about Canadian bestsellers. I don't know if you want to go through the list. Is that what you were thinking? Because if you are, I thought it would be fun to compare to the New York Times. I don't know if you want to do that, but I think.

Carly Waters (11:23)

Yeah, well, I. I'm not logged into my Times account, so if you are, then go ahead. But the main thing. Yeah, okay. The main thing I wanted to talk about, and I think there's been other blog posts about this, and I saw in Jane Friedman's newsletter this week, she also posted about it, which is. So, the top 10 best selling fiction books of 2025 in Canada. Only one of them on the list is a Canadian author. And I think that this is worth talking about because obviously, you know, cece and I physically are based in Canada. I always say, like, my. My body is in Canada. My mind spends most of its time in the US because of my clients and business relations. But we're here and this is our home, and I do represent Canadians, and I just think it's definitely worth talking about. So top of the list is Onyx Storm, Rebecca Yarrow, Said the housemaid, Frieda McFadden. Secrets of secrets by Dan Brown. Onyx Storm, non Collector's Edition by Rebecca Yarros. My friends, Frederick Bachman, Broken Country, Claire Leslie Hall, Fourth Wing. The non, Non, I don't know edition. The. Not the non. Non special edition, I guess. Is that what I'm trying to say? Then number eight, the Black Wolf by Louise Penny, which is the only Canadian author on the list. Number nine, alchemized by Sen Yin Liu and 10, the house made secret by Frieda McFadden. So there are multiple authors who are repeat authors on this. Different formats, different titles. Obviously some of these are series, as you can see, and special editions. But yeah, it's just, it's one of those things where I, I mean, I don't have other lists in front of me to compare it to in terms of previous years, but I would be curious about like last year and the year before because normally Carly Fortune is also on this list and some people like that. And then on the nonfiction side, there is one, two, three Canadian authors on the nonfiction list. Number one was Let Them Theory. Number two, Every Salad Ever by Greta Podlesky, Atomic Habits, James Clear, the Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel. Number five, Values by Mark Carney, who is our prime minister. Number six, A Book of Lives by Margaret Atwood, the other Canadian. So that's the third Canadian. Number seven, Always Remember by Charlie McKessie, Nobody's Girl by Virginia Roberts Gifri, the 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene and juiced elfers. And 10, the body keeps the Score, which as you guys know, has been on the bestseller list for five straight years.

Narrator (13:37)

So.

Carly Waters (13:37)

Yeah, so like between those lists, that's not a lot of Canadians on the list. And you know, definitely speaks to some larger issues about multinational publishing and various English language countries, how connected all of our cultures are. You know, the import export market, it just affects a lot of things and I, I wonder, I don't know. Did you spend any time thinking about the ccu? I. Yeah, I don't know. I got some random thoughts.

Cece Lira (14:00)

I did not spend any time thinking about this. Yeah. No.

Narrator (14:04)

Okay.

Carly Waters (14:04)

Well, my thoughts are, I want to, I want to compare year on year because I do want to, I do want to see if this is a trend, you know, when, when on the list there can be two onyx storms and a fourth wing, you know, and it makes sense, you know, and then there's movie tie ins again. The, the House made the Freedom Freedom McFadden titles. It makes sense. But, yeah. Anyway, I guess I was just bummed there wasn't more Canadian authors.

Cece Lira (14:28)

I'm looking at the New York Times bestsellers combined print and ebook, because you have to pick one. And I didn't want to do hardcover, and he did. Rivalry is number two onto fiction.

Carly Waters (14:37)

Right.

Cece Lira (14:38)

So, you know, there's. There's that. I think. I know that. Another book, too, that I think will be big that's coming out is Yesteryear. And I know she's Canadian, too. It's Knopf Publishing. It. Jenny Jackson.

Carly Waters (14:51)

I don't think she is Canadian. Carol Claire Burke.

Narrator (14:53)

She's American.

Cece Lira (14:54)

Yeah, no, she's Canadian.

Carly Waters (14:56)

Okay, I'm gonna fact. Somebody needs to fact check us on this because I think Cece and I are gonna disagree on this because I listened to her podcast, and I'm pretty.

Cece Lira (15:03)

Sure she's American, so she's listed under Apple Ibooks, Canada, Canadian fiction coming out. She did a talk at Soho House Toronto. Well, she had to cancel because of the weather, and I saw her on a Canadian forthcoming fiction list. Now, to be fair, these are all secondary sources. I did not.

Carly Waters (15:20)

Right.

Cece Lira (15:21)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (15:21)

Okay, maybe. Maybe there is some parental lineage or something. Maybe she's both. Maybe. Yeah.

Narrator (15:26)

Dual. Dual citizenship.

Cece Lira (15:27)

More than one.

Podcast Host (15:27)

I have more.

Cece Lira (15:28)

I have more than one citizenship, so why not?

Carly Waters (15:30)

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. I've heard tons of stuff about that one. I think we talked about that last year. People were saying about what a big deal it was in terms of its book deal. So, Yeah, I mean, there's going to be lots of. Lots of really great books out this year, so.

Cece Lira (15:44)

Cool. I can't wait to read that. Excited to read that. Okay, the next thing we need to talk about is an article you shared, which I have called. I'm just going to be honest here, guys. I have called this. The world's most boring man writes the world's whiniest article. Seriously, it's so whiny. I hope this person never hears me say this, but if you do, I am sorry, Truly. I don't mean to be rude, but. Oh, my God. Wine, wine, wine, wine, wine. Not the fun kind like red wine, white wine. The boring kind. So, yeah, what. What. What attracted you to this article?

Carly Waters (16:22)

You know, so one of the things I try to pay attention to is just, like, what gets a lot of comments, and sometimes it is things that are fiery and they do kind of create some controversy or they're total clickbait. When I wrote the notes for this, I was like, this is a clickbaity article.

Cece Lira (16:34)

Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Carly Waters (16:36)

You know, and so, you know, that's just the way that it was written. I then I went down and read some of the comments and I was like, oh, okay, well, people could just make their own opinion about. Oh, I haven't read the comments.

Cece Lira (16:46)

Are the comments the books?

Carly Waters (16:48)

Well, you know, they're all over the place. Okay, I guess we should maybe talk about what this is about. So it's. It's basically an article called the Day NY Publishing Supposed to be the Day New York Publishing Lost Its Soul. How did we get here and how do we get back? By Ted Gioia. Gioia. Gioia. How would you pronounce that?

Cece Lira (17:09)

I'm feeling sleepy and I'm not feeling sleepy. Like I have insomnia and I'm already sleepy just thinking about it.

Carly Waters (17:14)

It's one of those things where it's like, okay, here's all the book covers that look alike. And then it happens to be like all female authors. And you're like, okay, I noticed that. Yeah, many women of color. Many women of color authors as well. And then just talking about like the mid list and how used to be able to make it back in the day, you know, selling X thousands of copies and now you have to sell hundreds of thousands of copies and how editors don't edit. The one thing I did like in this article was the link to just the danger of consolidation. So maybe halfway down the article or so there's a link to basically showing how all of the different imprints under Penguin Random House and how they all used to be their own publishing companies, you know, some of them independent in themselves, like, you know, Fodders and Listening Library and all the audio divisions. And then essentially, I'm sure you guys know this, but essentially, like every single imprint at one time wasn't. Was its own publishing house, you know, for example. Yeah. You know, like Putnam was JP Putnam Sons. Now we just say Putnam, but like it had a full name and was independent. And there are a lot of imprints that were developed once, you know, the publisher was in its more modern era and that sort of thing. But yeah, like just everything from Clarkson Potter to Crown to all of these imprints. Right. These all used to be individual and now they're all groups. There's the Penguin group, the Random House group, you know, the Knopf group. And. And yeah, anyway, so that's just always a great visualization of all these independent. Used to be independent imprints were independent publishers. Right. And now they're all part of one enormous group. So I. I do like it when we. When we reflect on consolidation and the dangers that that's had to modern publishing.

Cece Lira (18:53)

I mean, but that's hardly an original opinion. And this is kind of my beef with this article. Like, he mentions, like, everything is formulaic Now. I. He doesn't say what the formula is. The books. He does mention. Yes. Via the covers, which he calls clownish. They are not clownish. No, but like, he. He doesn't say, oh, these are the formulas that all these books use. I have read several of these books. They are not formulaic. They're not all following the same formula. I mean, obviously all storytelling has formulaic elements. All storytelling. But, like, we're not. When we say formulaic, we mean just, you know, copy paste. And that's not what these books are. Yeah, I'm just like, why? Why? Like, why?

Carly Waters (19:31)

I think he's also mixing up packaging and product. Like, obviously the packaging is part of the product. But this. Correct.

Cece Lira (19:38)

He hasn't read the book, so he assumes they're the same. I promise he has not read these books.

Carly Waters (19:42)

Yeah, no. Yeah. So anyway, everybody can check that out, make their own opinion on that. But there are 195 comments. There are 280 reshares. But I think this is the type of thing that people just like to reshare without being like, can we just be critical about what we're being critical about instead of just being like, you know, let's just, you know, woe is me.

Narrator (20:01)

Sure.

Carly Waters (20:01)

Yeah.

Cece Lira (20:02)

I don't know. I mean, again, it's. It's the idea that someone would say, the problem is all books are formulaic without backing that up.

Carly Waters (20:10)

Right.

Cece Lira (20:10)

Like, please back that up. Show that to me. I am actually really interested in seeing how these books are formulaic. The thing is, I've read many of these books and I dissect books all the time. Like, it's what I do. Yeah, no, they're not. And I doubt you read them.

Narrator (20:21)

So.

Cece Lira (20:22)

Yeah, I'm just not convinced. Like, I was not convinced. I am always happy to be convinced. I love changing my mind because I think that when we change our minds, that means that, like, we're evolving as humans. If we feel the same way we used to feel that, it's probably a sign of something.

Carly Waters (20:36)

Bad thing. Yeah, totally.

Cece Lira (20:37)

Sorry, it was boring. Sorry, human, if you're listening, but it was boring.

Narrator (20:41)

I don't think this person listens to.

Carly Waters (20:43)

Our show, but that's fine. Okay, so the next thing somebody DM'd me about, auctions and so I kind of just like liked the earnest way that this person asked the question. I think it's one of those things where we throw around words all the time about, you know, how we do our jobs and things like that. And I just thought this person was like, I just need help. So this person said, hi, Carly. I'm just genuinely intrigued about auction and preempts. I wonder how a book sent out on submission garners such huge interest from separate publishers. I can't get my head around what seems like a private submission process. Thank you. And I felt like this was just like a type of question that a lot of people would ask and I suppose that private. So I think what she's like, okay, in my. Again, my interpretation, I didn't ask all of that.

Cece Lira (21:34)

Your interpretation?

Carly Waters (21:34)

Yeah, my interpretation is I have one on one conversations with each editor. Right. Like I'm submitting to these individual imprints. And so like, that is the piece that's private. So my interpretation of what she was trying to ask was how does the agent orchestrate this thing while giving information to everybody, while keeping the information private and doing the dance of that orchestration of the auction.

Cece Lira (22:01)

I think I get it because when you hear the word auction, typically you think of like the auctioneer with the little hammer.

Carly Waters (22:07)

Yeah. And.

Cece Lira (22:08)

And there are a whole bunch of people sitting down and people see other people raise their hands. And so that would be probably the public version. I'm so slow. It took me so long to get it, but I know, I get her question. And what she's saying is, well, if there's no public. And by the way, there used to be like, there used to be way back in the day, you would go to publishers or the publishers would come to the agents, whatever. You'd go to a physical meeting space. And it wasn't a situation where people were raising paddles or anything, but. But it was like everyone in the same room. But whatever. That's not the point. The point is, I get the question now. The question is, so how does an auction happen when there isn't someone looking at someone else raising their hand? Okay, fair, fair question. Do you wanna. Do you wanna start? Do you want me to start? Because we do it the same way.

Carly Waters (22:48)

So. Yeah. But also, like, there is. So there are so many different ways to do it. Right. And I think what she's getting at is like, at what part does the private become public and vice versa. Right? What, how does the information sharing happen? So there are things like floors where we would talk about, you Know a certain level in a general sense, but also specific. Like that's some ways that the private becomes public.

Cece Lira (23:08)

So. Yeah, but wait, you have to backtrack. No, we have to go back in time. So, okay, the agent we send.

Carly Waters (23:13)

I told you to boss me around. I told you you had to boss me around today.

Cece Lira (23:16)

Okay, so I'm gonna be bossy. We send out submissions, okay? So let's say just. This is just for the sake of the show, let's say we send it out to 10 editors. Okay? Let's just imagine Carly and I are repping something together. Okay? So we repping something together, we send it out to 10 editors. Now, once we have enough people interested, and this varies, we're not gonna get into details because we'll talk about it forever. We will send out emails letting people know, hey, we have other interest in, in or are you out? If you're in, we're going to send in the auction information. So, like the closing information, auction rules. And that's how kind of like the private becomes not public. But everyone all of a sudden has a common knowledge. Yeah, yeah, Everyone all of a sudden has the same auction rules. They have the same closing date. They know, you know, what, what the rules are. And the rules could be anything from there's going to be a floor to, there's going to be X amount of bids, it's going to be round robin, it's going to be best bids, it's going to be best bids, modified, whatever. But that's sort of how you get everyone on the same page. But to get to that point, you do need to have enough people interested. And I do find that. And this is something that I remember realizing, and it's so obvious, but I hadn't thought about it until I became an agent. You talk to editors and they kind of know who they're competing against without it being public. Because truth be told, our tastes in books are so similar. And this happens to agents too. Like when I lose a beauty contest. Beauty contest is not literal people. This is when an agent offers representation and the client doesn't go with them. So when I lose a beauty contest, it's usually to the same agents. Like, you know, there's, there's a few. And the same thing happens to editors. Like, you kind of know without knowing who else is, is in the mix. There are some editors who even say, I know if I lost an auction, it was probably to either this person or that person or this other person. Because they, you know, we, we, we, we know who has the same taste. So, yeah, I think that's, I think that's, that's the backtracking that we had to do. But wait, you were going to talk about floors and stuff?

Carly Waters (25:18)

Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, there are ways to share the information without saying like, so and so did this, or, you know, and editors also try to get information from us about how they can kind of best do their job. And our job is obviously to serve the client best. So, yeah, I always, I find that editors, often, they're trying to figure out how they're not going to lose the auction. What they really need to do is figure out how they're going to win the auction. And the person that wins is always the person that's in it to win it, not the person that's trying just to make it to the other round. But anyway, we could talk about auctions forever. So if there's more spin off questions from this, obviously let us know. But hopefully that helps with the private public and I get the question now.

Cece Lira (25:55)

Okay, I wasn't getting the question, but I get it now. I think also too, one of the best things about auctions is that when an editor does lose and it's always heartbreaking, I hate having to share bad news and be like, oh, unfortunately you didn't make it. If assuming you do a good job, right, like assuming that you treat everyone particularly responsibly, you end up building a strong relationship with that editor. And so for your next submission, they're, they're going to pay even more attention. And also, if there's a book that's similar, like, you can also tell your colleagues when they have something similar. I remember an editor once telling me, I lost the auction for the other black girl. Please, if you have anything that's even remotely similar. I cannot believe I lost that auction, send it to me. So there's this hunger too, that comes after someone loses an auction. But yeah, it's heartbreaking to share you lost news. Should we break for our sponsors?

Carly Waters (26:43)

Yes, we should. Thank you for reminding us.

Cece Lira (26:46)

You told me. You told me to be bossy today.

Narrator (26:50)

As you know, we have booked our summer adventure. We're off to Germany and Austria for the kids summer break. I've been to Frankfurt for the book fair, but nowhere else in Germany. I've been to Zurich, but nowhere else in that region. So I am pumped. I can't wait to carry the kids up the mountains while we hike. Kidding.

Carly Waters (27:03)

But what they often excel at is language.

Narrator (27:05)

My kids are getting really strong French skills, but I can't wait for us to learn some German before we go so we feel less like tourists and more like locals. Connected the country in coffin when we.

Carly Waters (27:14)

Are out and about.

Narrator (27:15)

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Carly Waters (29:03)

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Narrator (29:04)

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Carly Waters (29:36)

Quince.com teessnatya okay, we are back.

Cece Lira (29:40)

We are now going to share another question from our listeners. And I will be very honest. This question is quite long, saying this with all the love to the person who asked the question. So I'm not going to read it word for word, but they're essentially asking about resources. They're saying, hey, and it's a lovely message. I want to make that clear. As a writer, I'm overwhelmed by the volume of resources available. It's hard to choose where to invest my money. You know, there's, there seems to be so many resources available. And they mention a few resources, including Manuscript Academy, Publishers Marketplace, which is obviously not a class, but like, you know, you pay for the subscription to get access to information. Jericho London Writer Salons, Poet and writers. And they're like, can you, can you help me understand? They even mention our own resources like Carly has her courses. I have my courses. We obviously have this, the, the, our podcasts resources like the Deep Dive, by the way, by the time this airs, the Deep Dive will have ended. But by the time we're recording, it's this weekend. And I'm excited. And I guess, you know, her question is like, how can I navigate this as a writer? She's saying that she imagines that retreats could be really beneficial, but that it does seem like an example of inequitable access in the industry. And she's like, well, how can writers protect themselves from something, you know, that seems legit but might be predatory versus something that could add real value? So I have a lot of thoughts on this. I don't know if you want me to go first, Carly, or you can totally go.

Carly Waters (31:07)

No, you go for it. Go for it.

Cece Lira (31:09)

Okay, so I have a lot of thoughts on this because I am coming from this as both a student and an instructor. First, I want to recognize that inequitable access exists in all industries. Like we've talked about it before, there's, there's a certain privilege because a lot of these things are paid. So many things do offer scholarships. Like in my courses, for example, I offer scholarships and we do at the deep dive and stuff like that. It doesn't make it fully equitable, but it helps. But I want to acknowledge that like that's a part of every industry. It's a part of the capitalist world we live in. I however, started thinking about this question which I thought was a thoughtful and really intelligent question. And I remembered my law school days. So when I was in law school, the professors who taught the best classes taught these classes in the most ungodly hours. I am talking so early, not even roosters were up or so late that everyone but me was tired. I'm never tired in the evening. And, and we talked to each other like we law school students, you know, bright eyed and optimistic being like, why? Why the best profs always teaching in the worst times. And then the answer was so obvious, it was right in front of us. Because they're the working lawyers. They're the ones who have to go to the firm or wherever else they work. I'm pretty sure there was one in house counsel. And that's something they do on the side. Almost, Almost. Right. Like they also teach, but they're professionals who are practicing law and they're fabulous lawyers and that's what made their classes so great, you know, And I'm not saying the other profs weren't great or that there are profs who are practicing lawyers who aren't necessarily great. Fine. But like I will say that there's something special about learning from someone who is doing the job and teaching. And this is something that, that in our world has changed a lot. Like nowadays you can go to a place like Masterclass, which is super famous. I'm pretty sure they've even advertised with us or maybe they wanted to, I don't know. But like you can learn from Margaret Atwood, Martin Scorsese, you can learn from Mariah Carey. Like literally, you know, I have a master's class subscription and I could take these classes by these amazing people because we live in a world where that is available to us thanks to technology and thanks to the fact that people do more than one thing. And I think that's really cool. I like that humans, like once upon a time you had to do just one thing, you know, and now, no, that's old playbook, it's not the new playbook. And I think it's amazing. I also think that this is me speaking as a student. I'm someone who, I love courses, love. And I have taken some courses that are terrible, terrible. And I've taken some courses that are amazing. I'll give you an example. So I was not allowed to invest money directly, like, to buy stocks directly. This is really common for lawyers, particularly lawyers working in banking. Because we were privy to insider information, we were not allowed to buy stocks, which is very reasonable. We could invest, like in a mutual fund through a bank, you know, paying a ums and stuff. But we were not allowed to, like, trade ourselves. And after I was no longer practicing law for many years, I was like, why do I not know how to do this? Like, I don't know how to trade. I want to learn. So I took a few courses and I loved a few of them and I did not love others. This is just one example. Like, I love learning. I love self development. I'm into it. Part of how I find out if a course is good or not is really it comes down to my critical thinking. The listener is asking us, how do I know what's legit versus what's not? You have to talk to previous students of the courses. You have to have a really strong writing community and network that you can ask questions, people you trust. Part of it is also you kind of have to take a leap of faith. Like, I have paid for courses that I did not love. I didn't get that money back, but hey, I got the knowledge, and I will never pay for that person's product ever again. They keep trying to sell me new stuff. I'm like, no, thank you. I didn't like that. So, you know, it's about common sense. It's about research, and it's about figuring out what works for you. At the end of the day, you can't know for sure, though. And I think that that's just a part of, like, the subjective nature of of coursework.

Carly Waters (34:57)

Yeah, no, that's a great answer. Some things I were thinking about, in addition to that was this idea of, like, the decision paralysis. And also this idea that, like, it's the next, next course that's going to make me a bestseller. It's the next course that's going to help me sell this book. And maybe hinging it so much on the course when it's like, we need to reflect in words and maybe it isn't the course isn't the answer. We are the answer. And what we bring to the course is our knowledge and that curiosity, as you were saying, and that critical thinking. So I would just encourage this. I'm not saying this person's doing this, but anybody listening, like, really think about is, what is it that you're seeking. Are you seeking the course material? Are you seeking access to that instructor? Because you're right, there's tons of places, right. That you can get information and knowledge. One of the reasons I wanted to do my course was, as cece said, I'm a busy agent. I can't, I'm too busy to teach live courses as much as I used to. So that way, so the way that I built my current course is it's all pre recorded, which meant I could give my best version of it. It's all in one place so that you guys can access it and I can do my day job. And then when I go to do updates to the course, you know that it's based on the knowledge of the business that I do on a day.

Cece Lira (36:04)

To day that was updated because you're there doing the work. Exactly.

Carly Waters (36:07)

That's how I've informed everything. So, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I just think there's a lot of ways to approach this and I would, yeah, I would encourage the person not to be like, I have a checklist of all the things I need to do before I become a writer and I have to do three courses, I have to learn from XYZ and, and I, I love, you know, this person, again, trying to better themselves and gain all this knowledge. But it's not, not going to be the source that you maybe think it is that's going to give you the answer. It could be, but creative writing is such a, you know, again, there's the business. I think I should also separate these two thoughts. Right. Because I think they're, in my opinion, there's kind of the creative writing machine and then there's like the publishing machine. My course is based on more of the publishing machine than the creative writing machine. And so if you want to learn creative writing, there's all those vehicles, again, whether it's MFA adjacent or specific writing courses about the writing side of the craft. And then there's the publishing. Publishing side of the craft. So also think about like, what is it that I'm seeking? Who is best to deliver it? Like you said, who has the experience? Who has what I want? How do I know that, you know, the outcome of that on the other side is from an individual or an organization that can, can speak from experience.

Cece Lira (37:23)

And you know, reminding everyone, listening that in terms of access in the industry, if you want to, I don't know, paint a beautiful painting and get it on the walls of New York City galleries or if you want to audition for a movie, there Is no direct channel for the average person to do that. Like, you have to know somebody. And in some cases, you have to know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. If you want to put pages in front of Carly or myself or another agent, if we know we're not your cup of tea, hopefully we are. There's an email address that is public information. It's there on what? Anyone can query us. We read our slush pile. We are there looking for gems. Nobody needs to pay for that. Like, if I want to make that super clear. People who take my courses. People who take my courses know this. There's no incentive to. To take my courses in order to query me. Please. They're completely separate things. If I signed everyone who took my courses, I would have hundreds of clients. I do not have.

Carly Waters (38:25)

I.

Cece Lira (38:25)

Yes, I have. But again, it's because the writing was so great and they. If they had queried me without taking my glass, it would have had the exact same outcome. So there is a very clear, honest, direct, accessible to all channel, which is our query emails. If you are interested in querying us, which you do not have to be, but if you are, we are accessible. So if all the creative industries, and I know that creative industries have a low bar, publishing actually is quite accessible compared to others, I will say that.

Carly Waters (38:52)

All good points. I turned my mic off because the dog was barking. Okay. So baby Levi, I know we missed him.

Narrator (39:00)

He was.

Carly Waters (39:01)

He was being dog sat while we were away and he's home now.

Podcast Host (39:03)

Okay.

Carly Waters (39:04)

There's a couple other things we had on our list.

Cece Lira (39:05)

Dog sits him. Do we like this person? Do we trust them? They're secret cameras.

Carly Waters (39:10)

My in laws. My sister. Okay.

Cece Lira (39:12)

We like them.

Carly Waters (39:13)

Yeah.

Cece Lira (39:13)

Okay.

Carly Waters (39:13)

Yeah. And we watch their dogs.

Cece Lira (39:15)

We both love our mothers and la. We're very lucky people, guys. Yes, I know.

Carly Waters (39:19)

So we watch their dog and they like when we're.

Narrator (39:21)

When he.

Carly Waters (39:22)

Each of us are away. No, they're. They're lovely.

Cece Lira (39:23)

No, no need for secret cameras.

Carly Waters (39:26)

Cece's like, ah, Levi. Levi's name. My dog. For all of you that don't know. Okay, so one thing I just want to say the thing that we're not going to say just so that you guys know that we know the thing that you're going to say.

Cece Lira (39:38)

Yeah.

Carly Waters (39:38)

So there was a lot of.

Cece Lira (39:39)

You have DM'd us. Like a lot. A lot, guys. A lot.

Carly Waters (39:42)

Yeah. A lot of you guys DM'd us about a certain post on social media. Again, we're not trying to be opaque about this. We just want to let you know that we saw the post. We saw everybody's reactions to the post. The post has been taken down and that is why CeCe and I decided not to talk about the post. You know, just out of respect for that conversation probably needing to end.

Cece Lira (40:04)

You know, the Internet is a scary place and I love that our listeners reach out to us and ask us for questions. Please continue doing that. But at the same time, like it's. We don't want to add fuel to the hate fire. You know, we just don't want that. And it's not that there aren't great points being made or that there weren't great points, that there weren't polite posts, because there were. But we, we just decided to like, not. Not address it. So we're not addressing it and it's not because we've forgotten or anything.

Carly Waters (40:34)

Yeah, exactly. Okay. The last thing we wanted to mention is everybody who is a subscriber to our substack knows that we have a Tuesday edition that goes out that is full of all of our juicy, juicy subscriber only knowledge. So I wanted to make sure that all of you guys knew what was going to be in the post tomorrow. So you will open your substack tomorrow to see an excellent author Q and A, which is Christina Hammonds Reid, author of the Johnson four, thoughtfully tackling some of your burning questions. We especially love this quote. The writing of the book is like its own little love story with these complicated little fictional people in my head. We know you can all relate because no matter what genre you write in, the writing itself is the love story. That's very sweet.

Cece Lira (41:20)

I love that. So there's also Libby Page, author of this book made me think of you with a wonderful essay about overcoming self doubt. Self doubt is a subject that has been very, very, very prominent in my mind. So Libby mentioned sometimes my brain tricks me into thinking that my book is like a computer game and if I do everything exactly correctly and in the correct order, then I will have completed book writing and I will have achieved perfection. But the reality, Libby reminds us, is that there are countless ways of writing a novel and a lot of them would probably be equally good, just different. This is why we are not in an exact sciences field, which sounds so boring. Thank God we are not absolutely that.

Carly Waters (42:03)

Kind of like, you know, was piggybacking off of the theme that we just talked about about, you know, there's many ways to achieve your goal. We also have a video from Jane Ward, author of should have told you'd sooner discussing her experiences with hybrid publishing and its advantages over traditional and self publishing. So that's everything you guys have to look forward to in tomorrow's substack.

Cece Lira (42:21)

That's so exciting. I cannot wait. I love our newsletter. I know it sounds like egotistical of me to say that, but I genuinely do. I have fun when I see our newsletter in my inbox. And I have a question for our listeners. If you are not a Substack subscriber I mean, first of all, why not? I am sad, but also genuinely, what would it take for you to become a subscriber? Like, what would you like to see in our newsletter? We are curious. Let us know. You can comment on our reels, on socials, and you can also DM Carly and myself in case. In case you're inclined to share.

Carly Waters (42:51)

Yeah, and we know that tons of you do, which is fantastic. And why we shared it out. We have over 70,000. It's like 70 over 70,000 Substack subscribers, which also keeps us wanting to create the best content for you guys. You know, shout out other people in the community, making sure we're covering the authors who have books coming out that we think you guys are gonna like and really just keeping the community going. So we're so grateful. So thank you to all of the 70,000 of you that read the newsletter.

Cece Lira (43:16)

Thank you 100%. I'm excited. I'm excited to connect with everyone to know what else they want to see in our newsletter.

Carly Waters (43:22)

All right, have a great week, everybody. Bye.

Podcast Host (43:26)

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available, which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the ShitAboutWriting to find out more.