Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

"Shooting the Shit: About publishing’s ghosting problem and when sales are 'not good'"

Hosts: Carly Watters (A), CeCe Lyra (C)
Date: October 20, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

In this candid and advice-packed episode, literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra dig into the realities of the publishing world, focusing on two major issues for writers: the industry’s “ghosting” problem (when agents or editors disappear without explanation) and what it actually means when someone says a book’s sales are “not good.” The episode also includes segments on agent membership in professional associations, the role and value of pitch contests, and tips for authors navigating these often opaque aspects of publishing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Reality of Fall in Publishing

• The Season: Hosts reflect on the busy and stressful fall season, marked by overwork and illness, but also industry events like the Frankfurt Book Fair.
• Publishing as a Retail Business:
  • Carly shares an insight from Brittany Lavery (Simon & Schuster Canada): "Publishing is a retail business." (05:01)
  • CeCe agrees: "We're in retail." (06:19)
  • Insight: This frames publishing not just as business-to-business but as fundamentally about moving product to consumers, shaping expectations about sales and success.

Publishing’s Ghosting Problem

[13:41]

Reader Question:

• If an agent ghosts a client after a failed submission, what can you do? And does this hurt your chances of finding a new agent?

CeCe’s Response:

• Compassion for the author. "Agents disappearing is not okay... If you are an agented author, your agent should respond to you." (13:41)
• Practical Steps: Try to contact others at the agency; formally sever the relationship in writing (email and, if possible, a registered letter).
• Recommendation: "Overkill is best in these situations...here’s my email, here’s my registered letter." (16:11)

Carly’s Response:

• Acknowledges layers to the problem, especially risk with solo agents.
• Encourages due diligence and clear documentation when terminating an agent relationship.
• Warns of worst-case: "What if the old agent comes back and says, 'You didn’t terminate with me...I’m due some revenues.'" (16:39)
• When querying again: "No, this is not a black mark on you. It’s a black mark on whoever's dropping the ball." (17:24 – CeCe)

Defining “Ghosting” in Context:

• Carly clarifies not all delays are ghosting:
  • "I’ve seen people use the term ghosting…when an agent had [a manuscript] for a month…that’s not ghosting." (17:34)

Memorable Quote:

• CeCe: "Try and also, like, send a registered letter…I feel like overkill is best in these situations." (16:11)

When Are Book Sales “Not Good”?

[18:34]

Listener question:

What do editors/agents mean by 'not good' sales? What are the real benchmarks for debut authors?

Hosts’ Breakdown:

• Expectation Setting:
  • It depends on the size of the advance and the print run.
  • "Once an author is halfway through earning out their advance, the publisher is starting to make money…the second half…the bonus the publisher gets." (19:29 – Carly)
• Print Run Example:
  • If a publisher prints 50,000 copies but only sells 5,000 in six months, that’s problematic: "That's really, really, really hard to come back from." (20:38 – Carly)
  • Unsold hardcovers make paperbacks less likely.
• Transparency:
  • Publishers rarely share clear benchmarks; it’s contextual and often opaque.
  • CeCe: "You will be really frustrated if you expect publishers to tell you this is 10% less than the copies we expected to sell this month. It is not that granular. It’s just not." (22:20)

Should Writers Care if an Agent Isn’t an AALA Member?

[23:02]

• AALA = Association of American Literary Agents
• Historical Context:
  • In the past, criteria were exclusionary; not everyone could join, particularly those who taught workshops.
  • Now, more inclusive: "The current AALA is great. You know, it's very welcoming, very accommodating..." (24:12 – Carly)
• Why some agents aren’t members:
  • May be legacy reasons, may not yet meet all criteria, or may be applying.
• How to vet an agent:
  • Use Publishers Marketplace to research deal history and agency background.
  • Consult Writer Beware for red flags.
• CeCe’s Perspective:
  • "Their resources are amazing…It is a great, great organization…it’s a little bit more organic than that." (25:51)
  • An agent not being a member isn't automatically a problem.

Pitch Contests: Are They Worth It?

[27:20]

Question:

Are pitch contests (especially with editors involved) a good path for writers—or risky?

Carly’s Take:

• Used to love Pitch Wars, found it valuable when well run (traditional web/blog format, agent-vetted, high bar for quality).
• "I feel like they were of an era and I think that era might have passed." (29:22)
• Most Big Five editors do not have time/capacity for contests, and not all contests are equally legitimate.
• Concern: Editors (especially at smaller/hybrid presses) in contests could lead authors into questionable situations.

CeCe’s Take:

• Doesn’t use pitch contests; prefers reading material in slush pile over evaluating hooks/hype.
• Editors can participate ethically but must refer authors to get an agent before offering.
• On hooks: "A hook can be so great... There’s no material to go with it…It’s much harder to actually execute and write the material." (31:00)

[32:54]

• Lighter Moment: CeCe blames her optimism on cold medicine, suggesting perhaps topical discussions should be reserved for an “After Dark” episode with a glass of wine.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Carly: "Publishing is a retail business." (05:01)
• CeCe: "If you are an agented author, your agent should respond to you. If your agent is not responding to you, that is not okay." (13:41)
• Carly: "Do your due diligence, read your agreement, know what you have to do, go above and beyond." (16:39)
• CeCe: "A black mark on you? No, no, this is not a mark on you. Gosh, please never feel that way." (17:24)
• Carly: "Once an author is halfway through earning out their advance, the publisher is starting to make money." (19:29)
• CeCe: "You will be really frustrated if you expect publishers to tell you, 'this is 10% less than the copies we expected to sell this month.' It is not that granular." (22:20)
• Carly: "Some of them [pitch contests] good, some of them not so good, some of them well run, many not so well run." (28:19)
• CeCe (on hooks): "I can right now tell you ten really great ideas for hooks for books. There’s no material to go with it." (31:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Publishing as retail business: 05:01–06:51
• Ghosting protocol and advice: 13:41–18:26
• What 'not good' sales mean: 18:34–22:03
• On agent AALA membership: 23:02–27:16
• Pitch contests pros/cons: 27:20–32:56
• Wrap-up (“After Dark” banter): 32:54–33:42

Tone & Closing

The episode blends honest, no-nonsense industry advice (“overkill is best in these situations” when protecting yourself as an author) with warmth, humor, and empathy for writers navigating difficult and often isolating scenarios. Both hosts encourage writers to be diligent, informed, and resilient—backed up by real-world stories and practical tips.

For emerging writers seeking straight talk from insiders, this is an essential listen—full of real talk, reassurance, and an invitation to see beyond the myths and marketing of publishing.