Shooting the Shit About The Easiest Genres to Sell and How Agents Impact The Outcomes of Book Deals

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About The Easiest Genres to Sell and How Agents Impact The Outcomes of Book Deals
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Date: January 12, 2026

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Overview

This lively, insightful episode sees agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra reconnecting after the holidays to chat industry news, discuss which genres are currently easiest (and hardest) to sell, and take a hard look at just how much difference an agent makes in the trajectory of a book deal. With humor, honesty, and seasoned insider knowledge, Carly and CeCe break down myths, share candid opinions and personal experiences, and spotlight current Substack essays shaping conversations in publishing. Writers looking to understand market trends and the business side of writing will find this a must-listen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Welcoming the New Year & Personal Catch-Up (00:40–09:18)

• Post-Holiday Check-in: The hosts open with warm wishes, a candid update on Carly’s family loss, and reflections on self-care, goals, and habits for 2026.
• New Year's Resolutions & Habits:
  • Carly’s “word of the year” is ease – not seeking easy paths, but “not forcing things. Not that things have to be easy, it’s ease.” (Carly, 04:29)
  • CeCe sets goals based on habits rather than achievements — focusing on daily practices, e.g., starting exercise inspired by fellow agent Wendy.
• Lighter Moments: Banter about their newsletter’s baby photo guessing game, with CeCe chiding listeners for mixing up black-and-white vs. color photos as clues.

2. What’s New in Publishing: Public Domain Day & the Value of Retellings (11:20–15:22)

• Public Domain Day Musings: Each January 1, new works enter the public domain. This year, the early Nancy Drew books are highlighted, which means increased opportunities for new editions and retellings.
• Retellings in the Market: Discussion on why and when retellings work, including the challenge: “But why do I want to read a retelling?” (CeCe, 14:45).
  • Carly recommends a recent episode interviewing Katie Burnett about her novel "Beth is Dead," a Little Women murder retelling.

3. Substack Spotlight: Which Genres Are Hardest and Easiest to Sell? (15:22–24:00)

A. “450 Decisions or the Serendipity of an Editor and their Submissions” (Sean Delone)

• Key Takeaway: By the time an editor sees a submission from an agent, quality is already vetted. What matters most is PRAGMATISM and EASE of selling, not just excellence.
  • “It’s pragmatism that determines what he buys... it’s not excellence that often determines if an editor likes to take on a project, but ease.” (CeCe, 17:51)
• What makes something less difficult to sell?
  1. No bad sales record
  2. Publisher already experienced in the genre
  3. Minimal editorial work needed
  4. Pitch that reads like jacket copy
  5. Early blurbs
• Quote: “Nothing is easy in publishing.” (CeCe, 17:55)

B. Genre Rankings (Hardest → Easiest to Sell)

Fiction: (Carly reading, 18:55)

1. Short story collections
2. Poetry
3. Literary fiction
4. Action adventure
5. Horror
6. Science fiction/fantasy
7. Mystery/thriller
8. Romance

• Short story collections are “the hardest according to many people.” (CeCe, 20:25)
• Carly notes in 15 years she’s sold just one short story collection.

Nonfiction: (CeCe reading, 21:13)

1. Memoir (non-celebrity)
2. Essay collection
3. Academic
4. Narrative nonfiction
5. Journalism
6. History
7. Self-help
8. How-to/practical
9. Memoir (celebrity)

• “If Martin Scorsese were to write on a napkin ‘I want to write a book’ and submit it to editors, I would be putting an offer together tomorrow!” (CeCe quoting essay, 21:45)
• Both agents note they’ve sold nearly every category except poetry.

4. Substack Spotlight: Literary Romance vs. Romance—Why the Divide? (27:12–30:35)

"Where Are All the Literary Romance Writers?" (Hailey Blasingame)

• Key Points:
  • Romance is a genre; love stories “transcend genre.” (CeCe, paraphrasing, 27:12)
  • Sally Rooney’s books (e.g., "Normal People") are often labeled as literary or “sad girl lit” instead of romance, despite centering on romantic relationships.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “Let’s stop disguising romance as literary fiction.” (CeCe, 28:13)
  • The stigma around romance leads to “snobby” or “silly” attitudes that prevent greater commercial and critical embrace.
  • Both hosts agree: if romance is the A-plot, “then it’s a romance or a love story.” (Carly, 29:33)

5. Listener Question Deep Dive: Do Agents Really Affect Book Deals? (30:35–40:45)

• Listener asks: Does the agent actually matter in book deal outcomes, or does a solid manuscript sell itself, regardless of representation?
• CeCe’s passionate response:
  • “Of course it matters!” Reputation, trust, and editor relationships are everything.
  • Editors may read certain agent submissions first (or at all) based on that agent’s reputation for quality and professionalism.
  • "There are some agents [editors] just won't work with, no matter how great a book is." (CeCe, 34:46)
  • Agents know which editors are primed for which projects, build buzz, and often keep fighting for projects for years.
  • Excellent pitching, navigating auctions/preempts, and contract negotiating are all highly variable—agent to agent.
  • Editorial agents—those who revise with clients—can hugely affect saleability.
  • Carly adds: “The way an agent pitches the book is very unique to that agent. …So, the outcome will always be different depending on the people that do it.” (37:36)
• Bottom Line: The manuscript matters, but so does the messenger.
• Extra Insight: Editors value agents who stick around to help when problems arise, not just those who "sell the book and run."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Publishing “Ease”:
  • "It's not that things have to be easy. It's ease." (Carly, 04:29)
  • "Nothing is easy in publishing." (CeCe, 17:55)
• On the Literary vs. Genre Divide:
  • “Let’s stop disguising romance as literary fiction.” (CeCe, 28:13)
• On Agent Importance:
  • “An agent matters…on how quickly an editor’s going to read something, in some cases whether they’ll even read it, or whether they’ll give something a good chance.” (CeCe, 32:30)
  • "If you're looking back in your life and you're not thinking, 'I would have done things differently,' then it's like, have you even learned anything?" (CeCe, 37:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40-09:18: New Year’s greetings, habit/goals discussion, baby photo challenge laughs
• 11:20-15:22: Public domain chat, retelling trend analysis
• 15:22-24:00: Genre difficulty rankings, Substack essay review
• 27:12-30:35: Literary vs. genre romance, Sally Rooney debate
• 30:35-40:45: Listener question—Does the agent matter?
• 40:45-end: Wrap-up, plans for future episodes and guests

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Tone and Style

Conversational, occasionally witty and self-deprecating, but always grounded in industry practicality and hard-won wisdom. The hosts are encouraging, honest about the struggles and joys of publishing, and often inject warmth and humor into their professional insights.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a clear-eyed, nuanced understanding of today’s publishing realities—from which genres agents and editors view as "impossible sells," to how deeply agent reputation alters a manuscript's fate. It's packed with honest advice—and a touch of tough love—for writers looking to better navigate the business of books and advocate for their work.

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Recommended action for listeners:

• Browse Substacks discussed for deeper reading (Sean Delone; Hailey Blasingame’s "Touch Her and Die").
• Follow the show’s newsletter, especially for community Q&As.
• Writers: Reflect on your own genre choices, the “ease” factor, and the agent partnership you seek!

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible, and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available, which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi everybody. This is technically the Happy New Year episode for me and cece because we haven't seen each other since the New Year crossed over. So this is our Happy New Year to each other. So we, we planned ahead. We over recorded in December. We didn't want to leave you guys high and dry in the holiday season. We know everybody had lots of travel and long drives and we want to make sure you were all loaded up with lots of podcast listening. So, yeah. So Cece, how are you? How was your break? How have you been?

[Cece Lira]

I'm well. Happy new year. It's January 7th for us. I know it's not for our listeners, but we time travel because we're cool like that. I had a lovely break. I got a lot of reading done, which is always my favorite thing, and ate a lot of cookies. So really I was in heaven. How about you? How was your break?

[Carly Waters]

It was okay. My grandma passed away at the beginning of the break, so it was a little sad. So I was driving from Ottawa to Sarnia and home for Christmas and then back Ottawa to Sarnia, if for those of you that are not familiar with Ontario, I basically traversed the entire province twice over the break. So yeah, it's my mom's mom and she was sad, so it's nice to be there for her, obviously. And I spoke at the funeral and I have so much speaking experience and yet like when it's a funeral, you're like, oh, I hoping my training kicks in and I'm not gonna ball through the whole thing. But anyway, I made it through my speaking and it was beautiful ceremony.

[Cece Lira]

And.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, she was 92 and passed in her sleep. And one. Oh, one thing that I actually haven't posted about this on socials, which was, I think you'll love. It's so sweet. So. So my mom would always, you know, bring some books to my grandma. Not any of my spicy books, but she would bring books to my grandma, like my historical fiction, things that I was working on. And obviously, you know, she would read my. My client's materials, which was really sweet. And so the book that she had in her nightstand when she passed was my client Jane Healey's book, the Women of Arlington Hall. And she had, like, she had her bookmark in there that was like her, like, grandma's love reading bookmark in Jane Healey's book. So that was the last book that she read. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

That's so great. The first episode that we're recording in the year and I'm already tearing up. Oh, my God, that's so sweet.

[Carly Waters]

Should have had a trigger warning for me to start this episode. Sorry, but happy tears.

[Cece Lira]

No happy tears. Because, you know, it's. It's grandma love, but. Oh, gosh, I know. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I have the copy of the book and the bookmark. She had it. I brought it back home with me anyway. So, yeah, I didn't get a lot of reading done. I didn't get a lot of work done. I usually try to catch up on some things. I love doing my publishing predictions, and I had these grand, elaborate plans for my publish predictions, and I was a little bit late on those, but I did get those out. So thanks, everybody for chiming in on those. I feel like it's been a crazy year. Like, some years I'm very much like, this is how I think it's going to go. And oftentimes with my predictions, even though I write them, like, as a year prediction, they're often like five year predictions because publishing moves so slow. But it's an interesting year. The economy's in flux. Book business is still barely up, but we're up a little bit, I think when the official numbers roll in in a couple months, Cece, you and I can do like, a deep dive into the numbers, but the preliminary reports is kind of like, flat to moder.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. Yeah. And I. I feel like the beginning of a new year is such a good time to, like, take a step back, think about goals, whether you want to call them resolutions or goals or whatever else Think about, you know, take stock of the year that just went by and consider, you know, but what worked well, what didn't. But not just in binary terms like that. Just think about, like, really important moments and what stood out. And I know that you like words of the year, so do you have a word of the year for 2026?

[Carly Waters]

I posted about it on my socials. The year compass. I do the year compass every year. And it's a really great way to just kind of reflect on the year that just went by and obviously the year that's coming. And one of the questions that it asks you is your word of the year. So I think I have settled in with ease as my word ease. It's actually a trend of what we're going to talk about today because the word ease comes into play with one of our substacks we're talking about, but ease because. Just not forcing things. Not that things have to be easy. It's not easy. It's ease. And so it's like, like not forcing things, really paying attention, having kind of eyes wide open and, you know, not kind of having my blinders on, but making sure that I'm not forcing things. Yeah. So ease. Ease is my word. Do you have a word?

[Cece Lira]

I love that. I love how you framed it as not forcing. I think that that paints a very interesting, interesting image for me in my brain. Like when I heard ease, it's not that I hadn't thought about that or I thought something opposite, but I just hadn't. Like, I hadn't. I wouldn't be able to put it quite like that. So I really like that. I don't. I don't do words of the year. I tried one year, invited by you. You invited us to think of the word for a year. And I was like, I'm going to do that. That sounds fun. I forgot what my word was. So words of the year don't work for me. I have, you know, things that I want to accomplish and things that I'm excited about, but it's just not. I'm not a word of the year person, but I love knowing about your word.

[Carly Waters]

Do you set goals for the year?

[Cece Lira]

I set goals, but they're different from, I think, how most people see it because I focus on habits, so I like focusing on habits as opposed to goals. If you think about it, it's really semantics because my goal is to have that habit. But I pay attention to my habits because I feel like that's the foundation of so many things. And then I Have habits that I want to cultivate, habits that I want to maintain, habits that I want to break. That's how I think of it. Yeah, it's all about habits for me.

[Carly Waters]

That's lovely. Do you want to share any? Are they all personal? Any professional ones?

[Cece Lira]

Oh, no, there's. There's so many. I'm happy to share some. So one habit that I want to cultivate. Guys, hell is going to freeze over. I want to start exercising. I know. Hell just froze.

[Carly Waters]

Almost fell out of my chair. Almost fell out of my chair.

[Cece Lira]

Okay, Okay. I want to credit this to Wendy. Okay. She has not told me to start exercising. I want to make that clear because that, you know, people might assume that that's what I mean. And it's not. She's not told me to do that. But she talks about her exercise routine and how it works really well for her. And multiple people have done that to me. But they're so different from me, these people that I go, yeah, that would never work. But Wendy and I were very similar in that we're both work centric. The way we approach books is very similar. The way we like, like to read and like to work in titles. And she has mentioned how it makes her a better agent. And I'm all for that now. That is motivation. I can get behind Carly. Whenever you talk about exercise, it's always like triathlons. And I'm always like, well, that's never gon that happen. But the way Wendy talks about it feels doable for me. And so I want to try. I want to try and cultivate the habit of exercising. We'll see how that goes.

[Carly Waters]

Have you, have you picked a medium? Is it. I know you walk. Is it more like faster walking or you know, what have you thought of as the medium?

[Cece Lira]

So faster walking wouldn't count because it feels like cheating. I want to try new things and see which one I like. You know, I'm going to try Pilates. I'm going to try yoga. I've tried before. I don't love yoga, but Pilates I might like.

[Carly Waters]

So I will say so actually this comes back to work. I found. So I started performer Pilates. I have a huge workout routine and I don't need to get into it.

[Cece Lira]

All with you, but it's a reformer Pilates.

[Carly Waters]

So it's like the machine where you pull. Have you seen the machine where you like pull on the ropes and. Yeah, it's called torture device.

[Cece Lira]

So like just the machine looks like a torture device.

[Carly Waters]

It does, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

It looks weird. Like, it looks weird, but this is.

[Carly Waters]

What I will say, how it ties back to work is that sometimes with working at a desk posture, right, we're kind of like. We're doing this hunched over thing. I found that Reformer Pilates and maybe mat Pilates, you know, like, just doing it on a yoga mat type of thing would do the same thing. But I found that Reformer Pilates really, really improved my back, like, mobility. And I didn't do this, like, hunching or, you know, like, when you kind of are typing and you kind of, like, pull your shoulders forward and your scapula. Anyway, so I found that performer Pilates really makes my back feel good. And so that is a work improvement for me.

[Cece Lira]

I like that.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I love that.

[Cece Lira]

I. I like that. As we both talked about this, we. We both put our shoulders back. We both adjusted our posture.

[Carly Waters]

Everybody fix your.

[Cece Lira]

Okay, wait, I'm gonna fix my neck. Gonna fix my shoulders. Yeah, we'll see if that will stick. Okay. One thing that I wanted to bring up also is that a couple weeks ago, we mentioned that our substack newsletter was gonna have baby pictures of us. One Carly baby picture, one Bianca baby picture, and one Cece baby picture.

[Podcast Host]

And we.

[Cece Lira]

We invited you guys to guess the baby. And I. And Carly said, hey, Cece, do you think people are gonna guess? And I said it like, this is just silly because everyone's gonna guess, right? This is not hard. I had seen the pictures for context, guys. I knew what the pictures were when I said this. Everyone got it wrong. I. I believe that at the time of this recording, not a single human has gotten it right. And, of course, no one got me wrong for obvious reasons. I don't look like Carly or Bianca. But everyone got Carly and Bianca wrong.

[Carly Waters]

They thought Bianca was.

[Cece Lira]

And Carly was Bianca. Now, let me say something. If you are thinking, oh, this means Cece is bad at predicting. No, it doesn't. What it means is you guys are all blind, okay? You guys all need to get your eyes checked. And not just your eyes, really, because it's not about the eyes. I didn't know which baby was which baby because they look the same. It's really like. Here's how I Knew Bianca is 11 years older than Carly. Bianca's picture is black and white. Come on, people.

[Carly Waters]

Come on.

[Cece Lira]

Logical deduction, people.

[Carly Waters]

I agree with that. But people went by the face. So I am the smiley baby at the bottom. I think I'm gonna look it up. Am I the one on the bottom? Anyway, I'm the smiley one. And Everybody thought Bianca was the smiley one and Carly was the grumpy one. Wasn't that what it was?

[Cece Lira]

I just don't. That's so weird. Like, you guys are weird. I want to say that to our listeners who offered an opinion on this. You guys are all weird.

[Carly Waters]

You're all weird.

[Cece Lira]

Obviously, the black and white picture is Bianca. That's the only thing that makes logical sense. Anywho, whatever. I stand by my words. It was an easy challenge.

[Carly Waters]

All right. And we also wrote little love letters to you guys in the newsletter, so make sure you check that out, because I really like doing that. I so many ways where obviously we interact with you guys as a kind of community. And we totally appreciate you guys over on Substack cheering us on, opening all of those emails that are such a labor of love our newsletter. So thank you guys for continuing to support us over there. We really, really appreciate it.

[Cece Lira]

Yes. And I really liked reading both your letters because I hadn't seen them. Right. And so I really enjoyed that, too. So that was fun. Okay, what do we have to talk about today?

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so as you can see, we are out of practice because we haven't done this in, like, a month. So we have two sub stacks, and we have a question from the community, and then I have a question for cece at the end. So that's kind of what we have in store. Why don't we start with. Okay, so one of the things that happens every year is that new works go into the public domain. And there's always a big kind of to do about this because that means that publishers can do those kind of beautiful, like, classics editions, and people can riff on them in a way that they weren't able to before, et cetera, et cetera. So Cece thought that maybe some of our listeners keep track of this. Cece, do you know some of the books that went into the public domain this year?

[Cece Lira]

I feel like I remember. So I remember looking at the list on January 1st, and it's been seven days, but I'm pretty sure Nancy Drew was on the list.

[Carly Waters]

The first three or four books of the Nancy Drew series were on the list. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Anyway, I don't remember now, but I actually. I would be curious to know if our listeners keep track of this. And I also think that, you know, part of being an author is being the kind of person who is into the business of books, who pays attention to the business aspects as well as the creative aspects. And this is one where public domain day, January 1st. Every year, it's Actually, really exciting. Not because you might write a book that's based on something that's now in the public domain. You may. You may work on a retelling. You may write, I don't know, Pride Prejudice and Zombies or whatever it is, but really, it's because it might inform what the next couple years are going to look like. You know, like, I remember when the Great Gatsby entered the public domain, and then we had so many Gatsby retellings. So I think it's interesting from, like, a business creative perspective to kind of keep an eye on that. And if you don't, then you are invited to take a look every January 1st. It happens every year. So I don't know. Do you like retellings? I don't think I've ever actually asked you this. Are you a retail links person?

[Carly Waters]

So it's. It's a really interesting question because there was. I should say there. There are times when they become very popular retellings. So. And actually, if you haven't listened to the episode yet, CeCe, my episode about Beth is Dead with the author, Katie Burnett. I just had her on to interview her, and she has a retelling. It's a YA thriller retelling of Little Women, if Beth actually died in a murder. So it's really good. So all of you guys, this sounds amazing. So all of you guys who listen to our show every week have already heard my episode with Katie. But, CeCe, I think you really like this. I did, yeah. And, yeah, it was really good. And I'm usually really hesitant. And I talk about this in the episode, like, I'm usually really hesitant about them because we get pitched so many different versions of these retellings. And what constitutes a good retelling? Why do things need to be. There's always, like, the why. And Katie talks about this in the episode about, like, her agent and her talking about this Sarah Crowe about, yeah, why do you have to tell this story? And so she went really far with this retelling, and I just adored it. So I love things that are so. They make so much sense when you think about it, but then when you read it, you're like, this is so much different than I expected. And again, we talk in the episode about how Little Women has such this foundation of just cultural knowledge. And then she just, like, doesn't have to spend time in the opening pages of the book explaining Little Women. She just gets to just dive into the, you know, the twist, which was awesome. So I think she did it so well, and so that's why I wanted to highlight her on the episode, obviously. Obviously. But usually I'm very hesitant because I have all the questions and all the things I just mentioned.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I know you're very discerning with everything, so that's not surprising to me. I think that retellings in. In some ways, they're easier, and then in some ways, they're harder. They're easier because of what you mentioned. Like, we all share the same framework, and so there's less explaining that needs to be done. We're all sort of, like, already a little bit more invested in this book that's supposedly fresh, but. But not fresh in. In. In a good way. But at the same time, it's like, well, but. But why do I want to read a retelling? You know? So, again, it's a challenge. It's high risk, high reward, like, so many things. But, yeah, I find it to be fun. I find retellings to be fun.

[Carly Waters]

All right, so next up, we have our first substack to discuss. Cece, which one do you want to be? Our first.

[Podcast Host]

Which.

[Carly Waters]

What are. What should our first sub stack be today?

[Cece Lira]

So our first sub stack is going to be.

[Carly Waters]

Let me.

[Cece Lira]

Let me pull up the title. It's from Dear Head of Mine, written by Sean Delone. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his last name right. I struggle with names, guys, and I apologize. 450 decisions or the serendipity of an editor and their submissions. And essentially, like, the reason why I wanted to talk about this, like, the first reason is because this acquiring editor, Sean, he ranked the most difficult to sell genres in fiction and nonfiction, in his opinion. Guys, everything that I'm going to share here is obviously his opinion and Carly's opinion and my opinion. This goes without saying. I'm saying it anyway. And obviously, the list is really interesting, and I feel like we can talk about that. But before we do, there's a few things about his article that really stood out to me. So the first thing is he wrote this article, I think, inspired by the idea of what makes someone buy a book. Right. And that people hyper focus on quality. But for an acquiring editor, by the time he gets that, the quality portion has been vetted, because agents submit to acquiring editors. So agents, Carly, myself, we are the first line of defense. We vet for quality. It's not all we're vetting for, but, you know, the quality is already there in terms of an acquiring editor. Submissions, for the most part, Right. Like everything's a little bit of a generalization. And so the variance in quality doesn't feel stark, whereas for agents it does. Like, the quality of my submissions in my inbox varies wildly and widely, both wild and wide. So anyway, for the acquiring editor, that's not true. And then he says that because the quality is more or less not the same, but you know, the quality is there for most of the submissions. It's pragmatism that determines what he buys as opposed to pure quality. And he says, you know, it's not excellence that often determines if an editor likes to take on a project, but ease, which ties in nicely to Carly's word of the year. I will make a disclaimer and say, I know a few acquiring editors who. It's not that they would disagree with this, but they do love challenges. Like, there are some acquiring editors who are known for being like, they don't focus on ease as much. They just enjoy that a little bit more. That's fine. That's just a different personality.

[Carly Waters]

It depends on the culture of the imprint and where you are in your career. Career and a million other things.

[Cece Lira]

Million things, right? For sure. So what. And really what he. When he's saying ease, he's saying less difficult because nothing is easy in publishing. But he did highlight a few points that make a book less difficult to sell. One, no bad sales track record to contend with. Two, a category that the editor slash publisher has already had experience in and success in. No structural work needed in terms of the edits. A pitch that already reads like jacket copy. Early blurbs help. So basically it's about making the editors lives easier when they go sell this in house. Acquiring editors have to sell. And so all genres need it. All genres need these little things that make a book easy. If you're not watching on YouTube, there's. There's air quotes right now, but some genres need it more than others. And so I thought that we could talk about the list, the list that he compiled. Do you want to read fiction or nonfiction, Carly? And then I can read the other one.

[Carly Waters]

I will read fiction. So this is again his anecdotal opinion of this situation, being an editor at a big five, obviously we need to kind of frame this. So he said the ease of publishing list for fiction. So starting with hardest to easiest. So when I say one, I'm saying the hardest on fiction. Short story collections. 1, 2. Poetry. 3. Literary fiction 4. Action adventure. 5. Horror. 6. Science fiction, fantasy. 7. Mystery, thriller, 8. Romance. I think it's really interesting that he doesn't have, like, general fiction in here or, like, historic. Like, there's just. He. He did choose only to talk about a certain number of genres. This is not an exhaustive list of every category either, which I kind of thought was interesting. I'd love to have. We have. I think we should have him on the show sometimes. We quote his substack all the time. You know, I'm just curious about, like, why he chose this 8, but I think just to show the difference of, like, the hardest being short story collections, the easiest being romance. Like, if we were to kind of put things on a spectrum. I have sold the short story collection. I haven't sold poetry. I've sold literary fiction. I don't know if I've sold action adventure. I sold horror. I. I've sold science fiction, fantasy. I've sold mystery, and I've sold romance. You know, so it's one of those things where as an agent, a generalist, I pretty much, you know, sold all of the. All of these things at one or another time. But I've only sold one short story collection in 15 years. So there you go.

[Cece Lira]

I had someone DM me the other day, hey, is it true that agents don't look at short story collection by debut authors? And I'm like, no, that's not true. But it's the hardest according to many people. I think he chose these. These genres based on what he buys and what his input buys. Maybe I'm just assuming. I don't actually know. But what I think is really interesting from the list is. I mean, he. He says this. He says a different editor would probably have a different list, But I don't think anyone would disagree that short story collections are really, really, really, really hard at the same time. And I know romance authors are probably really happy right now, and as you should be. But it's still really, really, really hard. Like, I do want to. I do want to say that, you know, like, it's not. Nothing's easy in this. And I don't want to.

[Carly Waters]

Everything's still one in a thousand, or, you know, one in 10,000, whatever it is.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, the ratio is. And then, okay, so for nonfiction, the hardest to sell, number one. Okay. The hardest of the hard is memoir. Non celebrity, obviously, non celebrity has to be there. And, you know, if you guys write memoir, and I know a lot of you do, you know this? And then number two is essay collection, which I think of as the short story equivalent in nonfiction. And then number three, academic. Number four, narrative nonfiction. Such a Bucket, like big bucket genre. I don't even know how that works in terms of putting it on a list. 5. Journalism. 6. History. 7. Self help. 8. How to practical and 9. Memoir by a celebrity. I actually thought it was really funny because he wrote, let's put it this way, if Martin Scorsese were to write on a napkin, I want to write a book and submit it to editors, I would be putting an offer together tomorrow. And that I am sure surprises no one because that's probably what most, if not all acquiring editors would do. Like celebrities are celebrities. Right. I actually really admire because a lot of celebs still write really strong proposals. I've spoken to a few acquiring editors who work with big celebrity books and they all talk about how oh so and so's proposal was actually really strong. One of the strongest we've ever seen. Like you wouldn't think that this was a celebrity who just expected a book deal because of his name. Right. Like he really put the put his back into it. And that's really cool to hear.

[Carly Waters]

I think on the other hand though, I've heard of a celebrity who wrote like a one page thing and then, you know, expect so much money from it. So it's like, you know, there, there's both sides of the spectrum. Yeah. And kind of just going back to the list. So I have sold memoir by non celebrity. I've sold an essay collection. I don't think I sold an academic book. I don't really know what that means per se. But I have sold books by academics. I sold narrative nonfiction. I've sold journalism. I don't know if I sold history. That's not really a category. I do. I've sold self help, I've sold how to practical and I have sold a memoir by a celebrity. So I'm like, I'm eight for a nine on both lists.

[Cece Lira]

Honestly, between the two of us, we've sold all of them except poetry. Yeah, all of them except poetry. I'm looking at it now and to be fair, I've never repped poetry and I don't think you have either. Maybe you have, but the point is.

[Carly Waters]

Writes poetry but I don't sell the poetry. Yep, gotcha, Gotcha. Yeah. And I have tried actually to sell poetry once.

[Cece Lira]

Anyway, sorry, it's hard. It's hard to sell poetry. It's hard to sell everything. We like a challenge or else we wouldn't be in this industry.

[Carly Waters]

We do, we enjoy doing this. We also like the challenge of fitting in when to throw to our sponsors. So let's throw to our sponsors now before we get to the next sub.

[Cece Lira]

Stack, let's do it.

[Carly Waters]

Those of you that have been here for a while know I love to update you on my summer vacation travels. So I want you to know we have chosen next year's trip. We are going to Germany and Austria so we can check out the Alps so we have some learning to do. Friends, I need to teach the kids some German too. They're obviously loving their summer Euro trips and I really hope we can continue it as a family. As long as they want to hang out with me forever, right? Right. Our kids are going to want to be our best friends for the rest of their lives. Yes, yes, yes. So imagine how much richer your life could be with travel experiences if you could speak more languages With Rosetta Stone, you're going to gain the confidence to have real conversations and create deeper connections wherever you go. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, wherever and whenever it fits your hectic winter schedule. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, German, yes, German, can't wait, Japanese and more, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Learn faster, Retain longer. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think, communicate with confidence. There's no English translation, so you truly learn to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. It has an intuitive learning process. You start with words, build to phrases and progress to full sentences. It's designed for long term retention so what you learn sticks with you. Learn anytime, anywhere. It fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. You can access your lessons from desktop or mobile app whether you have five minutes or an hour. And there's incredible value you can learn for life. A Lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages, so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for lifetime. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com today and start learning today. All right, Cece, we are back. So this is one that a client sent to me and was like, hey, check out this substack. You know, it just dovetails with a Lot of things that we talk about, you know, with my clients, when it's like, is it commercial? Is it up market, Is it literary? Like, what's the thing? And what does. When does something get to be like a literary love story versus a romance? And anyway, it was a really great sub stack that I sent to you so that we can. We can read it. So the sub stack is called where are all the Literary Romance Writers? The author of the substack is Hailey Blasingame. Her substack is called Touch her and Die. So if you want to check it out, Touch her and Die, this is from November 28th and has a great graphic on it. And, yeah, I don't know. I was very interested in this topic because I have sold romance, and I have also sold books that I have pitched as a love story and not a romance because, you know, for various reasons, sometimes something's a love story and sometimes it's a romance. When I say that to editors, you know, prior to this coming out, I've also said, like, it's a love story, not a romance. And they'll be like, oh, I know what you mean. Right. And love story, you know, love stories could be more sweeping. And anyway, I thought it was a really interesting article, kind of diving into, I don't know, just. Just the nuance of these things. Yeah. Cece, what did you think?

[Cece Lira]

I love that you shared this with me. Thank you for sharing. I. You know, there's. There's a way she framed it, which was. I'm not an expert, but in my opinion, romance. Romance is a genre, whereas love story transcends genre. You know, we talked about that just now, and. And I think the idea of transcending genre is really interesting. I also thought it was really interesting when she said that literary. In her opinion, literary romance hasn't blown up because someone like Sally Rooney is primarily seen as an isolated phenomenon rather than a part of a larger community. And that she gets classified, she being Sally Rooney, as millennial fiction, sad girl lit literary fiction. But she doesn't get classified as romance, even though she writes romance, in the author's opinion, of course. And she proposes, you know, let's stop disguising romance as literary fiction. And I love. I love that she said that. I thought that the idea of let's stop disguising romance as literary fiction is such an empowering battle cry. Like, really. It made me feel empowered is really the word. It begs the question, like, are some works of literary fiction romances in disguise? Now I'm kind Of like going through the list of literary fiction I adore. And why do people want to disguise one of the most profitable genres in the publishing industry? That does not seem interesting or intelligent. Do they not like money? As stated before, I do. I like money. So I don't think that's smart. And it seems snobby to me, which is another way of saying that it seems. Seems really silly. I. I will say this. This I will say, if anyone out there writes like Sally Rooney, please query me. Like, seriously, I'm obsessed. Obsessed with her books, obsessed with her writing. I actually have lots of strong feelings on the plot of many of her novels. If she were my client. She's not. She doesn't know who I am. But if she were, she would be getting a long editorial letter with a lot of editorial notes. Because I have very, very strong opinions on structural issues. Not issues issues, but like structural plot points and how I feel that they are leaking tension and missing opportunities. Again, woman does not know who I am. Nobody cares about my opinion. But if you write like Sally Rooney and you would be into getting a really long edit letter, please query me because I adore. I adore her writing.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. You know, I think there's so many books. And she talks about this in the substack, which it's like, does it need a happy ending? What does a happy ending mean? I think books like Atonement are a romance. I think books like Broken country are a romance. Like when you have the romance as the A plot, which I have always said, like, if romance is the A plot, then it's a romance. Like that's. Or the love story is the A plot, then that's the plot. Then it's a romance or a love story. Do you know what I mean? And if whatever else is the B plot, then again, that just confirms country. Yeah. Can I.

[Cece Lira]

Can we take a moment to say Broken country is amazing. I love it.

[Carly Waters]

I know.

[Cece Lira]

Such a great book.

[Carly Waters]

We talked about it multiple times. Such a great book. Yeah, it's a great book. We love it. So I think that falls into this bucket as well. She didn't highlight that book in this article. She mostly talks about Heart of the Lover. More Lily King. Normal people. Anyway, so, yeah, it's something to get you thinking if you are somebody who's like, why does romance get treated the way that it does? Or why do literary novels with romance get treated the way that they do? It's a. It's a great read. So go check it out.

[Cece Lira]

Okay. So the next thing we're going to talk about is a question from the community. It was sent as a question for the money episode, but I actually think that it's not just a money question. And so I'm going to read the person's text and I'm going to like compress it a little because it's long. Not in a bad way long, just long. My understanding was that the size of a book deal advance was often owed to the literary agent you sign with, whether by their connections or seasoned agencies experience with negotiating contracts. Publishers Marketplace tells a similar story where the same literary agents are consistently landing the largest deals for science fiction fantasy. But recently there was an Ask me anything on Reddit with an agent who said a solid manuscript will sell to a more or less equivalent imprint for equivalent money, regardless of the agent, excluding schmagents. And I would love both your takes on this and any insight you might have. I want to open up the question to not just the size of the advance because I think again, it's a really interesting question. I will share my take because when I read it I okay, this is kind of embarrassing. When I read it, I was drinking coffee and I almost spit my coffee because I was like, of course it matters. Like this idea that, like, how much does a specific agent actually matter when it comes to the deal that the author gets matters so much for so many reasons. First of all, agents have reputations, okay? Agents have reputations. And the reputation of an agent will heavily, heavily influence your outcome in the publishing industry. This varies from never heard of them to usually their submissions are great to there is not a good enough book in the world that would make me want to work on a project with this agent. Blackballing is a thing. This is obviously an extreme example. What I'm talking about. There is reputation for good taste, reputation for being difficult to work with, reputation for being the kind of agent who sends only a few submissions a year because they're very discerning versus an agent who sends out ten submissions a month. And I've had editors tell me there's no way they're actually vetting these things they're sending. This business is built on taste, which everyone knows. That's the subjective and subjective nature of it. And trust. Trust is personal. Trust is very, very personal. And I have a few anecdotes I can share to like, illustrate this. First, I have a I know a freelance editor who used to send me referrals. They didn't ask me if they could, they assumed they could. And I have no problems with that assumption, like, I love seeing things. And I started looking at their referrals, like, the stuff they would send me, and it wasn't very good. They were all not, in my opinion, not ready to be queried at all. At all. And I don't mean, like, not for me good. I mean not good, underdeveloped, poorly written, et cetera. And so I got to a point where I was seeing referrals from her and I was cringing. I was like, oh, my God, this isn't going to be good. Like, I was groaning. And I didn't notice this until I noticed it, you know, like, it was. It was a visceral reaction before I processed. And I obviously asked her to stop sending them to me in the. In the nicest way I could. But it's an analogy. An agent matters like an agent matters on how quickly an editor is going to read something on, honestly, in some cases, whether they'll even read it or whether they'll give a good something a good chance. There are examples that I can share that are kind of like public. The Other Black Girl. Huge book. Huge book. When that arc was sent out to everyone, the acquiring editor wrote a very thoughtful, lovely, so well written letter saying that when that manuscript first landed on her desk, she was not interested because it didn't sound like something she would want. But she read it as a favor to the agent who was a dear friend of hers, and she then fell in love with it. There's another editor who spoke at the. At an aala. What was it, an ALA event of some sort? It was an event with multiple acquiring editors. And she worked in ya, I believe. Hope flat out said she was not asked this.

[Carly Waters]

She.

[Cece Lira]

She volunteered this information. Flat out said she loves working with agents. Agents are awesome. But there are some agents she just won't work with, no matter how. How great a book is. So it really matters because reputation matters. It also matters because knowing which editors want what heavily determines the sale of a book. Some of this is unknowable. Some of this is like serendipity. But a lot of it is like, so and so used to be a ballerina, so I should send her this book. So and so has just gone back from a sabbatical in Greece. This book takes place in Greece. She's gonna love this. It's. It's small things and big things, and so I think it matters a lot. Agents can build a buzz. Agents can not give up on something like most good agents have. That story of that book that took years to sell and they didn't give up on it. And actually, Sean, Carly, you're so right. We should have him on. Sean actually wrote this. In the other article we talked about, an agent's pitch rarely ever makes or breaks a submission. But nine times out of 10, a book I've read all the way through had a special pitch letter or an agent who I trust implicitly to deliver a great submission, whether I try to buy the book or not. I repeat, an agent who I trust implicitly to deliver a great submission, whether I try to buy the book or not. It matters. Like, it matters so much. And I want to recognize my bias. Maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't matter as much as I think, and I just can't see it because I have a blind spot. But I don't think so. I think it's quite logical what I'm saying. What do you think?

[Carly Waters]

I loved your rant. I just sat back and enjoyed it all. I have a lot of thoughts, you know, just kind of echoing some of the things you said. Like, the way that an agent pitches the book is very unique to that agent. Like, you can't say that I would pitch this book the same way that CeCe would, the same way that anybody else would. So, like, that's very personal, the way that we just do the actual pitching of the book. When things get competitive, how you run an auction, whether you accept a preempt, like the way that you coach your client through the whole process, like, that's also very unique to the agent and that client relationship. So there's just at every turn, you know, in the deal making process, the contract, everything. Right. And so it's all just extremely personal. And it's not to say that if for. Let's just pick a random example. CeCe and I both submit a historical novel to XYZ imprint. They both, they, you know, maybe let's say different editors. Both of those editors want to buy that book, and so the budget they have is blank, you know, and then they send that back to us. It's. Sometimes there is just a threshold or a max for a certain category or a certain genre, and it doesn't matter who sends it. Like, the cap is still the cap, if that makes sense. But cece and I could potentially negotiate that in two completely different ways. Right. So the outcome will always be different depending on the people that do it.

[Cece Lira]

What I think is interesting is that every agent I've ever talked to, they look back on their very first couple deals and they go, oh, I would have done that differently. And that differently and that differently because they have so much more experience. Even when you have really good mentorship. Right, like excellent mentorship, there's still. There's still part of it that's you and your brain and. And that's a good thing. It shows evolution. If you're looking back in your life and you're not thinking, I would have done things differently, then it's like, have you even learned anything? But that is indicative of the quality of an agent. The experience the agent brings to the table, the. The know how, the style, it's so. It's so stylistic. Like, it's so personal to an agent. I think it matters a lot. Again, I love this question. The person who asked this question. I'm not saying your name because you didn't mention that I could, but I loved the question. And to me, it's like, scary that someone would think it doesn't.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I just think there is a threshold for certain genres. Like, I just don't want people to think like, the sky is the limit. It's not that the sky's the limit. It's just that there would be a lot of nuances between deals, let's just say.

[Cece Lira]

Which is why I open the question to more than the advanced. Yeah, right. Like, we're not talking about money. Like, we are talking also about money. That's one component. But we're also talking about other things. So it's not like sky's the limit. To me, I read as money. Maybe. Maybe that's not what you meant. But it's not about that. It's about the care and attention that you get. Honestly, even pre submission, like, editorial agents are a thing. Like, how good are the notes going to be? That's heavily going to influence whether a book gets bought or not. Because we just talked about this. If a book gets too many edits, go, go, go, go, go.

[Carly Waters]

Oh, I should say I thought about the other thing that I was thinking of, which is editors know which agents are going to sell the book and run and which agents are actually going to stick around to help with the author care. And that's a big thing, kind of what you're talking about with agents and different styles and whether editors want to work with them. Because editors believe, as they should, that an agent's job is to help with the project management. When there is maybe bad news to deliver, they call the agent. They how should we deliver this news about, you know, the print run or the COVID that we all love? Nobody else likes it, you know, like, when there's tough conversations that need to be had. The editor doesn't want an MIA agent. They want an agent who is there and, you know, ready to get in with them and be a team member. And so it's very collaborative. And so sometimes it's not that we all get along in, like, kumbaya way, but we all have to figure out a way to work together. And editors want to work with agents who they know will help their. That client, you know, through the good times and the bad times.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, it's about respecting each other. You know, do you respect and trust each other? And I think that's essential. That has to be there. It's breaking it. Breaking into this industry as an agent is really hard, and at the same time, it's really rewarding once you start seeing, oh, man, all my hard work pays off, you know, like, I'm selling the books that I want to sell. I am getting the deals that I want to get. I'm working with the authors I want to work with. Like, that. That part's really rewarding. And that comes from hard work. That comes from. From time and effort and strategic thinking and. Anyway, rant over. Do we want to do the last one, or do we want to leave it for next week?

[Carly Waters]

I think we have to leave it. I think we have to leave it for next time. I think we. We have kept everybody very busy today. I want to. Yeah, I want to. I want to put a list together of maybe. Yeah. Some guests we should have on this year. We haven't had guests on shooting the shit yet, and we've kind of just been like, you know, we'll see how this segment evolves with just CeCe and I.

[Podcast Host]

But.

[Carly Waters]

But I will say I would. I'm gonna put Sean on the list for somebody we should probably reach out to. If there's anybody that you guys think that we should maybe reach out to about having as a guest. So somebody maybe more publishing professional. Let us know what you think about that. Obviously, we are asking for people to put their comments and thoughts in the reels kind of below the reels and things like that, so we can see them on social media as opposed to dms, to the POD account, because we can't keep up with all your messages, but that's what the reels are for. So engage with those. Let us know who you guys think we should have on. I'm curious what you guys think.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I'm curious about that, too. It's gonna be fun. And for next week we're gonna talk about what we want fixed in the book business. We're gonna share our thoughts. And if you have any thoughts that you want to share ahead of that that you would like us to know, let us know. This is time sensitive because we're gonna talk about it next week. Any particular areas that you're particularly interested that we might want to talk about. So yeah, we. We will have a lot to discuss.

[Carly Waters]

All right, well, we'll see you guys all next week. Happy New Year again.

[Cece Lira]

Happy New Year.

[Podcast Host]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.