← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Shooting the Shit About Winning Author Mindsets and Agent Submission Timelines
00:43:37
Shooting The Shit
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and CeCe Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip.
- [00:10]
B
Discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. All right, well, cece and I started having a great conversation and then realized we didn't hit record, so. Cece.
- [00:32]
C
Terrible for me. I'm mad at Carly, guys. I'm mad at Carly. Today I am mad at Carly. Ask why. Ask why. Why, Carly? Why am I mad at you, cece?
- [00:41]
B
Why are you mad at me, Carly?
- [00:44]
C
Because you're gonna be in LA when I'm gonna be in Ottawa. Like, I never go to Ottawa. I've only been to Ottawa once in my life before. And I'm gonna be in Ottawa on Monday for a super fun event with my client, Dr. Tracy Dalglish. Be great. It's going to be all about her new book, you, your husband and his mother. And I was like, carly can come. It's going to be so much fun. Guess what? Carly's going to be in la. What does LA have that Ottawa does not have? Why are you in la, Carly?
- [01:12]
B
I know. So listen, I actually booked this LA trip a very, very long time ago because of my chaotic life schedule, needing to break it up between kids events and obviously other work travel. I couldn't do everything back to back. And I also, I mean, I will say I selfishly picked LA in November because of the weather. You know, Ottawa's starting to do that, like, dip into, you know, fall, where I'm starting to get the winter sad Z's. And I thought this would be a great week just to, like, you know, duck out and get some sun on my arms. And the cc's also give me thumbs down. I told her I'm gonna bring my big hat on. I'm bringing my big sun hat. I got a, like, laser. I got a laser facial last week where they, like, you know, do the. They try to get rid of the, like, I don't know, sunspots and age spots. So I do have to wear lots of sunscreen and my big sun hat, so I will be very protected. But I'm excited about your event and I. So if you guys are listening to.
- [02:03]
C
This hat and sunscreen, no matter what, though, very important, very important.
- [02:08]
A
Yes, yes, yes.
- [02:09]
B
I will need less lasers if I just follow Cece's advice here. So, Cece, if you guys are listening to this on Monday morning, and if you're in Ottawa, so it is tonight. If you were listening to this on Monday. So go to the event C CCC if you are in Ottawa or Ottawa listeners, I know there's a handful of you. So yeah, definitely, definitely go check her out. And then I also have a client in town, Alex Manley is doing an event for their essay collection at Perfect Books this week. So a lot's going on in Ottawa that I am, that I'm gonna miss. So why I'm in la? I'm in LA to do TV film meetings and the thing about la. So I go every other year. So obviously I'm in New York a lot more because of like, you know, the book, the book world. But in terms of the TV film world and book, I try to go every other year. So I've been going every other year since maybe like 2013. So, you know, potentially my fifth trip, let's say. And I go to. I'm just looking at my schedule, so I'm going to see like a number of co agents. So these are like the TV film agents in LA that I partner with to then pitch the producers and so on and so forth. So I have a bunch of those. I go to the agencies like UTA and CAA and WME and all those acronym agencies to again talk to those guys. I have a number of clients. I'm going to go to Netflix proper, like the Netflix offices in Hollywood. So yeah, I've got lots of fun stuff. I have client dinners which will be fun. I'm going to go see a friend and I also booked a hotel that has like a very. And this is very la, very like fitness center, you know, spa wellness element to it. So they have like Reformer Pilates machines in the fitness center at the gym. So I'll be able to get in my fitness in the morning because I'll be up so early because of east coast time, do all my, my meetings and I'll be a bit tired but I think it'll be nice and relaxing. The day that we are recording is my birthday. So next week will be my, my busy week and hopefully a little bit of downtime too.
- [04:05]
C
Yes, I am mad at Carly on her birthday, in case people are wondering. I am, I am. Because all this sounds so great but like do it on some other week, you know, not the week where I will be in Ottawa. I mean I won't be for the week, I'll just be for the day. But very important to be in Ottawa, not la. Like, you know, you don't want the Sunshine, you don't want the sunspots. You don't want the sand. Sand is everywhere. Nobody wants sand. You know, you want Ottawa with cece.
- [04:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, I do love a four season environment, which is why, obviously, I'm glad that I live here. So you guys are going to get a beautiful fall foliage leaf peeping moment, if you will, and enjoy it. So I hope you guys have a great time. We have a fun little lineup of things to talk about. The Q3 sales figures for the industry are in. We can talk about. You guys have been sending us some different DMs and substacks and things that you guys have been reading. We also have another scam to talk about, which is such a bummer. I know we've talked about scams before. They keep coming back, which is such a bummer. Cece, where do you feel like starting today?
- [05:06]
C
Oh, how about we start with the sales update? Because we haven't talked about sales in a little while.
- [05:12]
B
We haven't? No. And that was one thing that, you know, we, CeCe and I get industry news all the time and I just kind of like read it and blow past it. And I was like, oh, yeah, we haven't updated you guys. So There were some Q3 numbers that came in. So Bookscan, it's now called Circana. So people call it like Circana or Bookscan. It's the same thing, but Circana, Bookscan, latest figures came in. This is for the print book market. Came in at a declining 1% versus last year. So a decline 1%. You know, do without what you will, which is generally in line with second quarter performance of the year. So we were down in Q2 by 1%, down in Q3 by 1%. The adult market accounted for 80% of the declines with the quote unquote normalization of adult fiction sales as a key factor is what they said. And this is also reported in Jane Friedman's Hot Sheets. You guys can read that in more detail. And romance and thrillers were the categories that were hardest hit.
- [06:06]
C
Yeah, romance and thrillers. That's a bummer. We should also correct ourselves because I do this too. Her newsletter is now called the Bottom Line. It used to be a hot sheet. It's now called the Bottom Line. I'm pretty sure if you Google the Hot Sheet, you'll still get the great newsletter. But like, yeah, it's content that Carly and I pay for ourselves. We're not plugging this in. This isn't a sponsor situation. Not that we don't love Our sponsors. But yeah, it's just great. It's a great newsletter. Absolutely recommend it. Another thing that what we could highlight is that the children's market showed some growth due to nonfiction sales. Always interesting, right? With, like, the infant books top performing in the segment and middle grade readers being the most challenged segment. I thought that was interesting. And the press release notes, quote, the shift in market performance suggests parents are prioritizing educational content and enrichment activities for their children while reducing discretionary spending on themselves. End quote.
- [07:01]
B
Always.
- [07:01]
C
What happens when the economy is a little rocky, right? Like, I feel like parents. Parents will spend less on themselves and more on their kids. And, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm glad because reading to kids is really important. I will personally thank every parent out there for reading to their kids. Like, thank you. Thank you so much for doing that as a human and also, of course, as a literary agent. I thank you, Carly, for reading to your kids, obviously. But you're in publishing. Of course you're going to read to your kids.
- [07:28]
B
I'm singularly propping up the children's book market with the amount of books I buy. My kids are into, like, secret Explorers Club, we're into Investigators, we're into Magic Treehouse graphic novels. So I'm propping it up from my.
- [07:40]
C
Neck of the woods, which is very less than appreciated. If you are blessed to have children, I feel blessed that you are reading to them. So thank you. Thank you, everyone, for doing that. You know, it's not good to see a decline. I think it's also important to note that, you know, ups and downs are a part of sales, whether it's in any market. And yeah, just. Just, you know, how. How are you converting non readers? This is what I want all our listeners to be thinking about. Like, go find a non reader in your life, convert them into being a reader so we can increase readership. We need more readers in the world.
- [08:09]
B
Absolutely. So, yeah, little sales update for you guys there. Now, let's roll into some of the DMS that we got from you guys. So why don't we start with this? Listener had received personalized feedback from a literary agent, which is obviously the dream. So many writers, and they're always like, is this personalized? What does this mean, etc.
- [08:28]
A
Etc.
- [08:29]
B
So they're kind of wondering, like, did this agent offer this because they were more junior? Okay, so let's dive into this one. Cece, I'm pull up the screenshot that you sent me.
- [08:37]
C
Yeah. Thank you to the listener who sent this to us. I feel like, it was a very thoughtful question. My interpretation of it is they want to know, what should I read into this? You know, like, they already started theorizing, which I think shows critical thinking. An example of this is them saying, okay, so this is a junior agent, so I know they have more time. So maybe this is why they gave me feedback. I will start off by saying, like, feedback is always a good sign. You know, as. As an agent, whether you're a junior agent, a senior agent, anything in between. Even if you're like, okay, I really want to help writers, and I really want to give them, you know, the. The most feedback I can. Even if you're doing it also because of good intentions, no agent is going to spend time offering feedback on something that is just so undercooked that they can't help the writer. Like, it's a good sign. You should be very proud. It's rare. And so people who aren't receiving feedback shouldn't read anything into that. You know, 99% of the time, the reason why you're not getting feedback is the agent has that. It's not an agent's job to offer feedback. You wouldn't go to a real estate agent and ask them for feedback on how to build a house. Like, you just wouldn't. You wouldn't go to a talent agent and be like, hey, you didn't give me feedback on why I didn't make the audition. Like, you just wouldn't do that. And so same with a literary agent. But when feedback is offered, that's a gift. Gift that you can choose to receive or not, but it is a gift, and I find it to be really interesting. So, Carly, when you were a junior agent, did you used to offer feedback more?
- [10:04]
B
I definitely did. And there's a few reasons why I would do it. Number one, it builds rapport, right? So even if I didn't want to sign this person for this book, and it was like a maybe and I had some time and I had some notes that I was able to kind of cognitively pull something together because I find also, I don't just want to give people notes just to give notes, just to show that I read it. I think that's kind of useless and not fair. But I was younger and newer, I would definitely do more of this type of thing because it built, as I said, it built a great rapport, right? And then they're like, oh, they think of that agent the next time. And I would always say, like, I hope you find your right fit with this manuscript. But in case you don't, you know, query me in the future, keep me in. Keep me in mind for future books. Like, something to that effect where it's like, obviously, I hope that you find success with this project if you don't think of me for the future one. Or as we both know, and we can talk about this too, like, sometimes somebody signs with somebody and it's not a fit, and then they kind of come back to us in the future. That happens all the time as well. So, yeah, it's like. It's kind of like putting that kind of goodwill into the universe and giving somebody feedback if you have pulled it all together. I just find, like, as I said, it doesn't really make sense. If you don't have a strong vision for it, then you're just kind of like, here's why I didn't like it. And then, I don't know, is that actually helpful? Again, most writers would probably think it would, but as an agent, I know that authors scrutinize every single line. I know this person was like, every single word. Hey, I'm not reading between the lines. I'm gonna read every line. Like, I, you know, I need to figure out what's going on here. And I know that writers take that so seriously, and I never, ever want to lead anybody astray or get their hopes up or anything like that. So it's definitely worth getting excited about. But you also got to think, like, if they liked it that much, why didn't they offer on it? So it usually is just kindness.
- [11:49]
C
Interesting. Interesting. I feel like the word vision really is the. The game changer, I think. You know, when I have a vision for something, it means that the author gave me enough that the world actually can start to exist in my mind, and then I can actually play around with it as opposed to something being just so formless that I can't really do anything with it. I thought that was really interesting. As an insider, you heard about it here first. I hope B doesn't kill me, but I'm gonna say it. So for our next deep dive in January, we have an agent who shall remain nameless for now, because we haven't announced our presenters yet, but her presentation is gonna be about reading between the lines of agents responses. So she says, you know, this is for writers who perfected their query letter, polished their manusc, submitted to their dream agents, and then gotten a whole all sorts of rejections. And we'll comb through a range of agent responses, including requests, not just rejections, but discuss how to interpret and to navigate these replies. You know, and I'm I know people are going to be particularly interested on how to interpret the nos and the maybes because how to interpret the yes is very easy. A yes is a yes. But yeah, so you heard about anchor first. It's going to be awesome. So if you haven't already kept in mind the deep dive for 2020, make sure that you do.
- [13:12]
B
I love that. Very exciting. Yeah, it's great to hear from an agent, right? It's like, you know, all these writers groups, all these text trades, all these Facebook groups, all these discord channels, slack channels, like everybody trying to parse it. And it is nice to just have a collection of agents or an agent be like, okay, this is what's what. I love that. And now a word from our sponsors.
- [13:32]
A
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- [13:50]
B
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A
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- [13:57]
B
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- [13:58]
A
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- [15:13]
B
Welcome back, everybody. Cece, what's going on in the newsletter right now? This week?
- [15:19]
C
So many things. So obviously paid members will find our written critiques, you know, from books with hooks that we discussed in last week's episode. There's also author Q and A with Brian Schaefer, author of Town and Country. He's breaking down three things he's done to build a writing network. Writing network is super important, so it's something that I'm personally looking forward to reading. We also have an essay from Brisa Carlton, the author of Last Call at the Savoy, about why you should write your next book before the first one sells. Can I just say all the applause for this great advice and her angle, super interesting. So I'm also looking forward to that one. We also have an author video, Heather Gunninkoff, author of the Perfect Hosts, providing practical tips on using setting to create mood, steer action, and reveal secrets. A lot of people understand the first create mood. But you know what? Setting can also do more, such as steer action, reveal secrets, and really making it an integral part of the narrative rather than just backdrop. And you guys know how much I love secrets. So, like, let's all listen to Heather's advice. Another thing going on in our newsletter is we have a really brilliant author essay by Kendra Brokius, author of Nearly Beloved, about why your ideas aren't as precious as your agility. She quotes organizational psychologist Adam Grant, who put it this way. In the past, people were hired and promoted based on ability. In the future, the more valuable currency will be agility. We should bet on people with the motivation to learn and the flexibility to change. And how do you adapt that for the writing market, right? Like, as a creator, fine. You're like, fine, I get it. The world is changing, AI whatever. But how do I adapt that to an art form that's all about slowing down my brain and being thoughtful? There's actually a way to do both to slow down your brain and be thoughtful and to embrace agility. And so, really looking forward to our next edition. Just saying.
- [17:16]
B
I love that. So that's our Tuesday edition, everybody. That is for our paid subscribers. So if you're not in there, now is the time. What are we waiting for? Okay, next topic of conversation is submissions. And this is so this. We're talking about agent submissions to editors at this point. This is the framing of the conversation, which is around timing so this comes up all the time. Again, whether it's authors, you know, querying agents, but specifically agents actually debate this quite a bit as well. In terms of when is, you know, the right time? Is there a quiet time? You know, when should we be not subbing? When should we be focus? I don't know.
- [17:48]
A
It's.
- [17:49]
B
It's one of those things where my high level take on this. Um, let me read the question a little bit first and then, and then I'll get into it. So this person says when is the best time to go on submission? I hear that editors are not as responsive in the summer. They're busy in the fall. Publishing basically shuts down from Thanksgiving through the new year, so that leaves winter and spring.
- [18:08]
C
Okay.
- [18:09]
B
So yes, there are definitely going to be busier times than others. Generally the Thanksgiving through the new year is the time where people are trying to get stuff off their desk. They are not really looking at, you know, bringing new, new things in necessarily. A lot of times. Also acquisitions meetings and ed board meetings are just canceled. You know, people are on holiday or so and so is already off. Somebody's kid has their holiday play that day. There's just so many like family obligations, you know, so on and so forth, travel. So yeah, it's, it's just one of those things where people aren't necessarily as focused on the newest things coming in. So I, I definitely agree with that for a number of years have not submitted between Thanksgiving and New Year's. I guess like the only exception, maybe like an auction project where it's just timing related and, and so that would be a focus. But if it's like a new submission, let's say like debut or you know, something like that, I would be focusing on the January to May window is obviously the biggest window of the year because everyone's generally at their desks. There's obviously different holidays going on in the uk, people take like a week off for Easter. There's like March breaks and various spring breaks, especially for families with children. They're probably going to take that week off. So you know, there's ebbs and flows, but generally people are at their desks. The summer is where like there's a bit of a debate of when summer starts. So there's summer Fridays which start after the long weekend in May and then carry through to Labor Day. That's generally like the quieter part of publishing. And cece, what is your philosophy about subbing in that quote unquote, quieter time of summer?
- [19:45]
C
Yeah, I feel like so much of it depends on the project and the sub list because more and more I'm realizing that, I mean, I don't like to sub without first talking to editors. I like to have at least a phone call, if not an in person meeting or lunch or coffee or whatever. And I find that if I'm able to get an editor really excited with the meeting, first, again, could just be a phone call. The timing works itself out because the editor's already expecting that in their inbox. You know, it's not just another pitch in their inbox and a list of God knows how many pitches people are getting these days. And because I have such a small client list and I go on sub only a few times a year, it works for me. I suppose if I had, like, larger volume, this probably would not be feasible. But that's just not my list, at least not at the moment. So, yeah, I think I don't mind at all the quiet parts of summer as long as I've spoken to these people. I know they're at their desk and know they're hungry. I have also heard, like, absolutely signing off on everything you're saying, Carly. At the same time, I've heard editors say, well, during the quiet months, I get nothing. And they don't mean literally nothing. They just mean the volume reduces so much. And they're like, I actually really wanted to buy a book this year. I had an editor who shall remain nameless. But I'll say that it's a Penguin Random House imprint to say, I haven't bought anything this fall yet and I'm super excited to buy and I have the green light to buy and I'm just not getting enough. They're kind of like more on the junior side. I don't want to say junior because they've been at it for years, but they haven't been acquiring for many years and they just haven't gotten a lot of exciting projects. And they know with the Thanksgiving break coming up, people are going to stop submitting. And they're like, I need to buy a book this year. So there's also two sides to this, right? Like I've heard, I still remember an editor telling me how dead August is submission wise. And it's not like editors are sitting around doing nothing. They have plenty of work with their own things. Like such busy people, right? Doing so much work. But again, I feel like this is why agents are not robots. You know, one of the many reasons why you actually want a human being on the other side of the desk is because it's fluid. It's a dance. You know, it's like. Okay, so it depends. This book. Would this book make sense in the summer? Are the editors that I really want to target around? Are most of them around? Am I gonna do, like, a small submission first and maybe widen that net if we don't have any success? I guess, again, it depends on the strategy. And I absolutely feel like. So the person who asked this has an agent, and they said, I trust my agent 100%. They're clearly very happy with their agent, which is always so lovely to see. And I feel like this is why you want this really great relationship, this really human relationship with your agent, because you want to hear it. Depends. Let's talk about your case. Let's not talk about what works in general. I mean, we can, but that's not. Spend too much time talking about that. Let's talk about your book and how special your submission is. And I feel like that makes a lot of sense.
- [22:36]
B
Yeah, definitely. And the other thing I want to say is, so there's the individual editor, right? But then it's like, if they like it, then it's second reads, and then it's acquisitions meetings and, you know, so on and so forth. Right. But let's come back to, like, the individual editor. Individual editors don't really, like, get that much vacation, Right. It's like, I think we like to imagine there's, like, these people are, like, traveling all the time. Like, they. They get a certain number of vacation days just like anybody else. Right. So generally, publishers are closed between Christmas and New Year's. Obviously, there's long weekends or summer Fridays. But generally editors are at their desk doing their jobs, so they're not, like, that elusive to pin down. Obviously, you know, certain publishers, if you've been with somebody for five years or 10 years, you get a sabbatical, which is awesome. A couple months, it's sabbatical. There's maternity leaves. There's like, all of these things that rotate around and change people's kind of positions in various ways. But generally, people are at their desk doing their job. And so when I see those questions, I bristle a bit because I'm like, is that just an excuse just to be, like, not to pitch at certain times or. And like, CeCe said that editors are getting all these submissions at certain times and not others. So I agree. Like, I don't have a blanket feeling about it, but there is kind of an energy of the back to school. So, like, that September post, Labor Day, back to school energy but editors get a lot of subs, but there's a lot of energy. And then that new year, right, as soon as everybody's ready to go, because people have potentially held things back for the December period. Right? And everybody's, like, raring to go in January, so there's, like, a ton of energy there. And then again, the long submission window. So listen to your. Your agent. I agree with cece. Every project is incredibly unique, and most of us just have our butts in our chairs all year long.
- [24:13]
C
Well, when we're not running marathons, right, Carly? Because you run marathons and you up our group average, we're way cooler because the of. With Carly, all I do is definitely sit in my chair. But Carly's running marathons, so you're too kind.
- [24:24]
B
And they're triathlons. You make me sound like I'm an ultra marathoner. I'm like, what's that? Just.
- [24:29]
C
Isn't that more impressive? Because it's a try situation. You're doing three things and not just one.
- [24:33]
B
Okay. In my opinion, it isn't because I am not, like, grinding it out, like, running for, you know, the amount of.
- [24:42]
C
Time I get to do triathlon has, like, swimming, too. Right. And then what's the other?
- [24:46]
B
Swimming, biking, and running.
- [24:48]
C
Sorry, that's way harder than just run. Of course it's way harder than just running. Obviously, it is three different skills. Like, the last time I was on a bike, I was, what, 12 years old? I probably fall. Like, this is actually a really interesting test. I'm gonna try to get on a bike at some point.
- [25:04]
B
Oh, my God.
- [25:05]
C
And also swimming. There's, like, water in your ears, and that's not comfortable. Yeah, no, way harder. Wait, how do you swim? Like, you only do it in the summer then, because you're not swimming in the middle of the winter.
- [25:16]
B
I swim in a pool when I'm training, and I have a wetsuit. Yeah, I swim in a wetsuit in May and June.
- [25:25]
C
The wetsuit keeps you warm. Yep.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah, it's like an extra layer.
- [25:29]
C
The warm suit. Why is it called a wetsuit? I don't understand the name. Okay, okay, this is. See, this is what I'm saying. Thank God. Thank God for the athletic Carly, because.
- [25:38]
B
The etymology of words. Okay, we also. They. So they had a second question, which was. So whether you go out on submission with a handful of editors versus going big and. Yeah, I feel like this is kind of a hard one to answer because it is so individual. And it depends. I think it depends on genre. I think it Depends on the actual book. Yeah. So I don't really have a good answer for that one. I don't know. I also feel like, you know, not to say that you guys are, like, selling my trade secrets here, but, you know, some. Some of these things we got to keep close to the chest terms of how and why we do our jobs. True.
- [26:18]
C
It's true. See, this is why we're trying to, like, I guess, peel back the curtain, but also, like, not feel about too much.
- [26:25]
B
Yeah, mystery. It's Scorpio season, guys. We're a little air of mystery here. What's next on our list? Cece.
- [26:32]
C
So we same listener sent us a an article to substack article called no news is Bad News by Devin Halliday. So essentially, the listener's been on sub for four months, and the article rang true to them, despite it being hard to hear. So the article, in a nutshell, talks about how the consistent truth in the publishing industry is that good news comes quickly and bad news comes slowly or not at all. And the author recognizes that there are exceptions to this rule that they believe is true, meaning sometimes bad news could be quick, and then sometimes good news could be slow. But they're saying that this is the exception, and it's not helpful to think about the exception or focus on the exception. Now, when I read this, I had the feeling that's been following me all my life, which is other people have a user manual. I do not. There are many things that are very obvious to people that are not obvious to me, and I've always felt this way, and it's always confused me. And then conversely, though, there are things that I spot that other people typically don't spot. People are always telling me, oh, it's so clever that you spotted that. And I'm like, it's just in front of you. So anyway, this is my way of saying my brain is weird. And because my brain is weird, I did what I love to do, which is ask around. So I'm a part of two different agent slacks, not counting my own agency, Slack. And I asked people, I was like, what do you think? Do you think this is true, that good news comes quickly and bad news comes slowly and not at all. And, like, I got so many messages, so many messages from. From fellow agent friends saying, like, it just depends too much on the book. Some people have had good news come quickly. Some people have had good news come really slowly. One person sold a book after seven years of being on submission. And, no, not all those seven years were active Submissions. Another person mentioned how auctions, yes, are quickly, but that doesn't mean that the sales can't happen afterwards, even though they're typically not auctions. Another person mentioned that the majority of her good news has been slow. Anyway, I guess after hearing so many comments, and which we can absolutely dissect later if people are curious. But here's what I think. This is my conclusion. I disagree that the consistent truth of the publishing industry is good news comes quickly, bad news comes slowly and not at all. I actually think there's a different consistent truth to the publishing industry. Here's what it is. The publishing industry is an industry of exceptions. Agented authors, the exception. Agented authors with book deals, the exception. Authors that make the bestseller lists, the exceptions. Authors with film deals, exceptions. This is an industry of exceptions. Because if you put every writer in a room who wants the same goal, there's usually only one in that room that makes it. And then you put them in a different room and the same thing keeps happening. I think that when you say it's not helpful to focus on the exception, you're missing the point. The point is the exceptions are what make this industry exist. Like, we are an industry of exceptions. Every book is unique. Every product is unique. We try to find these common denominators in publishing and be like, wait, what's the pattern? What can I expect? There's no pattern. There's no rhyme or reason. You know, it's. Every product is a unique product. Every editor is unique. Every relationship between the agent and the editor is unique. Every relationship between the editor and their bosses, the people they have to get approval for, is unique. Everything is so unique that trying to find these consistent truths so that you can prepare yourself for submission is a beautiful, human, understandable impulse, in my opinion. Not helpful, though. Like, that to me, is what's not helpful. I applaud the author for their sharp perspective. I thought it was really interesting. But I think the consistent truth is that we are a business of exceptions. What do you think?
- [30:27]
B
I think that, like a show, even like this. Judy, the shit wouldn't exist if all of this was true, right? Because it would just be so easy to be like, let's pump this into this box and this Excel spreadsheet and this. And like, our business just isn't one of those, like, let's just put a little label on it and pat it on the head and move on. It's just not that simple to label thing. Not to say that this whole article was simple, but I think it's just trying to, like you said, put things in a box or label it or oversimplify, you know, a really just complex thing, which is that it's not going to be the same experience for everybody. And therefore I love articles like this, which break things down and this person provides statistics about their experiences, which I love, which makes people feel like they're in it together. That's why I love articles like this. Not because I think that we always got to have the answer to everything because we. We just won't. And I think there was a couple things that I really liked. You know, in this article. One thing that I pulled was this question answer kind of thing they did, which they said that somebody's question could be, when should you give up on a submission? And then this person's answer is, a submission dies two deaths. The first death is when you realize it's not going to work out. The second death is when the last rejection finally crawls its way to your door. The second death is not under your control, but the first death is. I just find as an agent, that's so interesting to me to hear that from an author's perspective. But it's not really like my experience as the agent, as the literal person who facilitates the rejections going back and forth, right? Because, like, the editor sends me the rejection, I read it, I log it. Some clients want them, some don't. Do you know what I mean? So firstly, the first death, when you realize it's not going to work out. Like, when do you realize that that to me is a mindset thing where you just got so many. And therefore now you're turning that, that optimism part of your brain off. Because this industry does not exist with pessimism. It only exists with optimism. So once you turn off your optimism switch, like, that is a death of sorts, right? Because you're losing that optimism. And then you're. You're switching to pessimism, right? And that disappointment, the second death is when the last rejection finally crawls its way to your door. I would agree with that, that there is these, like, layers and levels of, like, the stepping down of that energy of, I'm so excited, I'm gonna get a book deal right away. And then it's like, okay, these rejections are taken, taking a while, and like, here's the feedback. And. And to be honest with you, the last rejection never crawls its way to your door. The last rejection is always going to be a ghost, you know, it's always going to be the person that didn't get back to you. So I just find, yeah, I do agree that there's like a stepping down of these layers and levels. But yeah, again, it's just not that simple. But I love that this author is like trying to conceptualize this and, and trying to put words to it because I think they're a beautiful writer. Like, I love. I love reading this sub stack.
- [33:14]
C
Absolutely. So well written. And again, I appreciate a sharp point of view. It's. It's rarer and rarer these days. And I love a sharp point of view. I happen to. I mean, I don't even know if disagree is the word because it's just like I happen to take a different angle to this, but I loved the point of view. I wanted to highlight a few things about this article which again, I encourage everyone to take a look at this article. It's called no News is Bad News by Devin Holiday on Sunday substack. We will link it. Here's a few few things that stood out to me. 1. The author saying what about your one friend who waited a really long time for something and then finally got it? Yes, there are exceptions. Sometimes good news comes belatedly or out of the blue, but there are so few exceptions that holding out for them seems to do more harm than good. And then later in the article, a few sentences later, they say that some writers are as optimistic on day three as they are on day 429. And while I find that perseverance inspiring, it's also impractical. They go on to conclude that you can't use the data to make a decision on how to proceed if you're in denial about the data you've received. And this to me is at the heart of what I'm saying in terms of the angle. If you are telling me, and perhaps this person is telling me, that you're someone who the possibility that something could still work out keeps you from focusing on something else, then yes, I agree, you should follow the whole good news. It comes fast. Because if it's going to make you, to use your words, hold out on another project, then by all means believe this supposed consistent truth. Because if it's going to stop you from producing new work, it is a disservice. I agree. Furthermore, though, when you say it's impractical, there are people I know these people, I know these authors who they embrace. Here's an analogy. Imagine you're playing cards, right? And you're a great card player and you have certain cards in front of you that nobody knows about and then some cards on the table that everyone knows about. Some people understand that in order to win, win the game, meaning achieve your goals in publishing, you need to sometimes get new cards, make some. Some. Some type of risky move, like it's all within your control to a degree. But you focus on your cards, your game. They also know there's always a wild card that could appear. There's always a wild card. A wild card could come up or not at all. And the wild card is the good news that could come, whether fast or slow or anything in between. Your cards, though, are the stuff you can control if you want to make it in publishing. Your locus of control needs to be turned inward. You need to be focusing on what you can do to make it happen. I see so many writers focus on the fact that my book didn't sell because I'm writing from X perspective and people don't want that perspective. My book didn't sell because the word count is X and people don't want that word count. My book didn't sell because. And they kind of like blame these external factors, which is a human thing to do. I do it too. But you have to get over it. You have to be like, what can I do to focus on improving my chances of making it? And often that's just keeping on trying. I was listening to an interview on Diary of a CEO. He asks great questions with Jimmy Fallon. And Jimmy Fallon was talking about how his dream was always to be on Saturday Night Live, ever since he was a little boy. And he. His dad asked him to go to college, but he decided to drop out six months before he was going to graduate and go to LA and just go on auditions. And he kept getting rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected. And people would say, you have talent, but you're still green. You have talent, but you're still green. And he. He talked about how he got to a point where he was, like, ready to give up. He was looking into whether he could. Could, you know, move back home, go back to school. And then, of course, he made it. And the point is, I don't think people understand that there's that process in writing. You have. You have a big stretch of time where you are talented but still green. And part of what you're supposed to be doing with that time is trying and putting yourself out there. But you're supposed to face rejection as the norm. Rejection is the norm. Most people are rejected. If you interpret rejection as, oh, no, this means there's something wrong with me, and you kind of internalize that pessimism, then you won't keep on trying because your expectations will have been that it should be fast. And it's almost never fast.
- [37:33]
B
I'm just nodding along. Yeah. It's like, it's the strangest business. And I actually feel like the longer I'm in it, the less precise I am with my wording, you know, in the way that I talk about it. Because there are so many exceptions, and things change so much. I think early in my career, I talked about before, but I used to blog. So every Monday I'd have a blog post, and it would be like something's like a listicle. Like, you know, ten things to look for. Da da da da da. Seven ways to improve your synopsis. And every Monday, you know, I'd write these things, right. And it was my way of, like, obviously providing content and resources for you guys, which was really important to me. But also, in some ways, looking back at it, I did try to oversimplify things, right. Because I was trying to break it into these sections that felt like you could wrap your hands around it and you could touch it and you could reach out and try to make connection with it. And the longer I do this, the more I realize there's so many reasons we talk in these vague, Like, I'll know it when I see it type words. Right. Because there's so much about this that is so dependent on a million other things. And so when we try to exhibit control over something that is our way, right. Of trying to control the situation. Because if we can explain it to ourselves, then we. We can control it. And if we can't explain it to ourselves, that we can't control it. Right. So I think it's that idea of letting it. Releasing it to the universe is really hard.
- [38:54]
C
Yeah. And like the writer saying, you can't do that if you're in denial. I don't think that understanding that a wild card could always happen is being in denial. I think it's only denial if you refuse to understand that you have to keep on going on the side. You know, like. Like you're. You're focusing on your own cards, and the wild card could always happen. Understanding that it only takes one. Yes. And how random everything is and how every book is unique. It's not denial. At least I don't think it needs to be. And again, you. You know yourself, right? Like, if you need to internalize. No. If I believe good news could come at any moment, I won't work. So I'm gonna Believe it. Can't. That's fine. That's. You like shifting your mindset and working things inside your own psychology in a way that works for you. But I just don't see it that way myself, you know, which is, I guess, easy to say. I, as an agent have a lot of projects that I can champion as opposed to just, you know, one project at a time for a writer.
- [39:52]
B
Yeah, that's a great point. Obviously, from our vantage point, we see things very differently, but that also means we field rejections at an X percentage more than you because we have that many more projects. So I feel like tons of projection because I work on tons of projects. So, you know, we see the huge scope of it. I mean, right now, we kind of been talking directly to writers, but, like, there's agents listening to this. We feel you. Right, because we have to feel all these projections for all of these clients remain all, you know, with optimism for everything. Because when we choose to work on something, we're putting our. Our time on the line, our energy on the line, our reputation on the line. And when you, as a young agent get tons of. Of rejections, you're like, what does this say about me? What does it say about my taste? Right? Because we have this, like, bucket of projects we're taking with us, and that can be really hard as a new agent as well.
- [40:40]
C
Yeah, rejection hurts no matter what. No matter what. It's why. It's why you have to love this so much that the rejection becomes just, you know, growing pains. It's part. It's part of the process. And by growing pains, I mean constant growing pains. The growth never ends because the rejection never ends. It's just how. It's just how it is.
- [40:59]
B
No, it's all good points. I think we could talk about that for. For a very long time. So if anybody has future questions for us, We've discontinued our Q and A, so we used to do a Q and A for the show, you know, for the shit no one tells you about Writing at Large, which we used to record and would go to our substack subscribers. We have discontinued that because obviously we kind of field questions from you guys for this show. So if you are interested in having some. Some questions featured or you want to know something? I think a lot of you guys have been DMing us. Just a note to please don't DM the actual, like, podcast account because Rosanna is very, you know, overwhelmed. Bianca overwhelmed. Kind of like fielding all of that stuff on the podcast side of things. And this is more specific to me and cece. So if you can either comment on our existing shooting the reel so that we can, like, see the comments on the reels, and that way we can note that for future reference, or you can still DM me and CC. We still have our DMs open if you want to send any. Anything to us directly. But let's give Bianca a break and not flood her her DMs. And Rosanna and Bianca do a great job on the podcast socials accounts. Okay, so the last thing I wanted to mention, I don't know if you've been getting these, CeCe. I've been getting them. I know lots of authors have been getting these, which is like, literally copy and pasted ChatGPT, AI quote, unquote, marketing plans, or I'm gonna promote your book. And at first I thought it was just kind of innocuous. I was just kind of like, delete, delete, delete, delete, whatever. But now we're realizing actually that there is something quite sinister with some of these, because some of these authors will reply back to these AI marketing scams, and this is how they become a scam, which is then money starts to get involved. So then they're like, oh, well, then I will send this person my money if they're going to do this marketing plan that chat GPT spit out to them, even though this person hasn't read my book. And all they did was put the jacket copy into chat GPT and spit this out. So huge. Just like red flag. Be aware if you're getting any of these AI generated marketing plans or, you know, I'm going to promote your book for you, or here's like, this thing I can. Anyway, it's. There's just an absolute influx. And I think, you know, these bots are just taking jacket copy, pumping them into Chat GPT because you can see it still has the Chat GPT like font. Like, it's so obvious to me when these things, things come through. Cece, have you been getting these for your authors or seeing these?
- [43:16]
C
And I'm just insulted by the low quality. Like, I know at least do a good job if you're trying to scam me. Like, seriously, this is insulting. It's annoying and insulting. You know, one would hope you would at least try to up the quality if you're submitting something to a literary agent, but I guess not. Yeah, it just, like, this is terrible. I hate this. This, like, no, thank you. No, thank you. I would like AI to come to my home and do my dishes for me. I do not need AI to be doing this. So unsubscribe.
- [43:47]
B
Yeah, but letting you guys know, yeah, it might seem innocuous, but obviously, like, you know, do not respond. This is general spam. And, you know, if you go down conversations with these, just a red flag that we have heard of authors being scammed out of money for these. So please, please do all of your research if you're going to hire somebody for marketing and publicity, which we know you guys would, because that's just so important to make sure you're dealing with an actual human and not a bot that is going to steal your money.
- [44:13]
C
100%. Yeah.
- [44:15]
B
Well, that is our show for today, guys. Next week I am going to be in la, so cece and I are going to do a live from LA recording. Well, I'll be in la, she'll be back home. We'll do kind of maybe more of a TV film focus next week, which will be great. So thank you guys for tuning in every Monday to us. And the Mondays that you don't hear us is when you get a bonus episode. So we're glad we can bring so much more content to you guys. Thanks for tuning in.
- [44:40]
D
Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency.