← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Shooting the Shit Live From LA! About Page to Screen and NaNoWriMo
00:40:04
Shooting The Shit
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Host
We always have family coming to stay with us during the December holidays. Our boys are so lucky. They have great relationships with two sets of their grandparents and because of that I love making sure the guest room has everything it needs. I just opened the linen closet recently to check out the guest towel situation and I realized we have had those for a long time and we need a refresh. The towels we are using were from our wedding shower 10 years ago and.
- [00:25]
Carly Waters
Right away I thought Wayfair and the.
- [00:26]
Narrator/Host
Next thing I knew Our Edison collection 100% cotton 4 piece luxury Turkish bath bath towel set was on the way and it's here. As the holidays approach, make sure you get what you need to personalize your home with Wayfair. Refresh your guest room with bedding, linens, throw pillows, towels, tech, storage, bookshelves and more for way less. Our new set of towels are so soft and fresh looking. Curate A great home experience for our guests and myself is the highlight of entertaining and enjoying the home to the fullest. Romanticize your life with everything from linens to decor. Now is the time ahead of the holidays to get your house in order to Next on my list is the Tablescape for the Holidays. I like subtle accent pieces from candlesticks to trivets to table runners that evoke the holidays but can last through the whole snowy winter season. You can find all your seasonal must haves from furniture to holiday decor to appliances and cookware. Hosting just got a lot easier. And don't forget free and easy delivery even on the big stuff. No more hidden fees on furniture. Get big stuff like dining tables and desks shipped for free. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Wayfair W-A-Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style every Home.
- [01:39]
It's deep dive time again where we host a two day virtual retreat attended by writers from across the world. And if you haven't been monitoring our socials or subscribing to our substack, you won't know yet that we've announced that this will be our very last deep dive ever done, so you definitely don't want to miss it. We'll be focusing on giving you access to a whole host of agents and editors who have worked on some of the last decade's best selling books, building a bridge between you and the so called gatekeepers of publishing. Subscribe to our substack or follow us on Instagram so you can Be the first to be in the know as we begin to reveal our incredible lineup. Each week, mark these dates in your calendars. The Deep Dive will happen on 31 January and 1 February, with pre and post Deep Dive sessions happening the weekends before and after. And make sure you have 12pm Eastern Time on the 21st of November marked in your calendar for the early bird registrations. Woohoo. It's Deep Dive time again where we host a two day virtual retreat attended by writers from across the world. And if you haven't been monitoring our socials or subscribing to our substack, you won't know yet that we've announced that this will be our very last Deep dive ever. So you definitely don't want to miss it. We'll be focusing on giving you access to a whole host of agents and editors who have worked on some of the last decade's best selling books, building a bridge between you and the so called gatekeepers of publishing. Subscribe to our substack or follow us on Instagram so you can be the first to be in the know as we begin to reveal our incredible lineup. Each week, mark these dates in your calendars. The Deep Dive will happen on 31 January and 1 February, with pre and post Deep Dive sessions happening the weekends before and after. And make sure you have 12pm Eastern Time on on the 21st of November marked in your calendar for the early bird registrations.
- [03:54]
Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair.
- [04:19]
Carly Waters
Hi everybody. So you know, CeCe and I are just traveling around the world on these various shooting the episodes. Cece, you just got back from Ottawa and I am in la. So how was the event? Tell us all about it.
- [04:32]
Cece Lira
I'm laughing because, okay, I feel like I was in a ROM com. Minus the rom, minus all the rom but. And all of the comm. This was my story, guys. Okay, so I was gonna take the train, but then I found out that the train sometimes is delayed and taking the train is not smart. Which surprised me because I'm like, airplanes get delayed but not train. But I'm like, fine, I don't know how things work. So I will take a plane. So last minute I decided to fly there and my flight was supposed to leave at noon. And arrive there at 1.
- [05:09]
Narrator/Host
Right?
- [05:09]
Cece Lira
And the book launch wasn't until 6:30. So in my mind, even if there was a delay, like I was gonna get there in time in Ottawa, there's.
- [05:17]
Carly Waters
Like no amount of traffic that could, like, get in the way of that.
- [05:19]
Cece Lira
Yeah, it's like a 20 minute ride from the airport. So I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. So I arrive at the airport, plenty of time. I'm one of those people who. I'm always like, early because I, you know, have massive anxiety. And I like being prepared. I like being early. I prefer to wait and not be surprised by delays. So I'm there and we get a message saying, you know, your flight has been delayed. It will now leave at 1. And I'm like, that's fine. I will get there at 2. There's still plenty of time. I actually thought to myself, because I was checking into a hotel, that's actually better because I probably won't have to wait to check in. Whereas if I had arrived at one, I might have to wait. So, like, I'm totally fine. I'm like, this is why I arrive early. This is why I gave myself all this extra time. And then there was a mechanical issue and it was delayed again. And then after the mechanical issue, the flight was canceled. Canceled due to unforeseen mechanical issues, which you never want to hear. Right. So my flight was canceled.
- [06:13]
Carly Waters
Was this at a Pearson or was this at the island airport?
- [06:16]
Cece Lira
Island City airport, yeah, the tiny one that's adorable and cute and has a Balzacs. Anyway, so I'm thinking to myself, I need to get rebooked. And the speaker announcement thingy said, you, you'll. You'll be rebooked in 15 minutes. Just check your emails. But of course, like, I'm not gonna wait 15 minutes. I'm too anxious for that. So I go up to the information desk and I'm like, hi. I know you guys are probably hearing from all sorts of people with all sorts of problems. I actually have a very serious reason to be there. I have this event. It's a book launch. And for context, I'm feeling extra insecure about my nails. So I'm gonna show my nails in case people are watching via. Via Zoom. You can see like, it's. It's a gel mani situation where. Look at the growth, right? Like a lot of growth. And I'm gonna get them done this weekend because of Hawaii, and I couldn't get them done like two weekends in a row. That's too Much. So I'm, like, not feeling great about my nails. And I keep noticing that the woman who I'm talking to keeps looking at my nails. And I'm like, please don't make me feel worse about my nails. Which is ridiculous. I'm the only person worrying about my nails. But also, she kept looking at my hands. So I'm like, look, I have this book launch. It's really important. I'm not just going to the book launch. I'm going to be in conversation with the author. The author's my client. She's amazing. You don't understand. Everybody needs this book. And she keeps looking at my hands. And finally she turns to me and she says, is this the book? So she wasn't looking at my nails. She was looking at the book I was holding. Because I didn't, I didn't even realize I was holding the book because I was reading the, like, you're always holding a book.
- [07:43]
Carly Waters
I mean, we're just carrying it around. It's great.
- [07:45]
Cece Lira
And like, also, I was, like, reviewing my questions for Tracy, right? Because I wanted to have the book for the questions. And so she goes, is this the book? And I go, yes, it's the book. And so if you're watching us on YouTube, I'm holding up you, your Husband and his mother by Dr. Tracy Dalglish. It's a really fun cover. There are triangles and the COVID And she goes, is this the book? And I'm like, yeah, it's the book. And she goes, oh, my God, I really need this book. And so she turns to me and she says, there's two flights leaving. There's one at 4:30, and you'll get there at 5:30, and there's one at 7:30. You'll get there at 8:30. Now the 7:31 is useless. I might as well not go. So I turn to her and I say, can you book me on the 4:30? And she says, I, I, I don't choose these things. Like, it's a, it's an automatic system. I don't get to pick. There's nothing I can do. And I'm like, please, please. So I open up my book, I show my author photo, and I go, you don't want to disappoint this person. Think about it. She has spent years writing this book. Please, please, please, please, please, please. And I'm like, here's. Because I have two copies, right? Because I brought one for me, one for my mother.
- [08:45]
Carly Waters
That's what I was waiting for. I'm like, when Are you going to hand her the copy so that she's just happy with the copy?
- [08:49]
Cece Lira
Yeah. And I gave her the copy that was meant for my mother in law. I was going to have Tracy sign it for my mother in law. And I'm like, look, here's a copy. Because I know you need this book, right? Everybody needs this book. Please try to get me on the 4:30. And she's like, I'll see what I can do. So I was rebooked in the 4:30. Bribe people with books. This is the moral of the story. It works. Bribing people with books. So she did book me in the 4:30. At 5:30 we land. There wasn't a gate. There's no gate. There's no bridge. So we can leave the gate. I don't know. I'm stuck in this, inside this airplane. I'm very stressed out. I'm like, okay, people, I need to get out of this plane. So I get out of the plane, I run to the airport bathroom. And again, this is the part where I feel like I'm in a rom com. I am getting ready in an airport bathroom. I am a germaphobe. I cannot stand bathrooms. I do not touch doorknobs or doors. And I'm always like using my elbow for things and it's so gross. And it was a fine, it was a clean bathroom, but like it's still a public bathroom. So I'm getting ready in the bathroom, putting on my heels, putting on my makeup, feeling like I'm in a movie. And I race to the bookstore and I make it just in time. And it was a fabulous event. Dr. Tracy was, it was so amazing seeing her in her milieu, like just doing her thing, answering questions and talking about this amazing book that's all about keeping families together and making women feel like they're empowered in their lives and how you don't have to choose between these things. You know, you don't have to be stuck in the victim villain binary. You don't have to feel like whatever your issue is with your in laws is only your issue. You don't, you don't have to feel alone, essentially. So I bribed someone with a book to get there and it worked. And this is the moral of the story. Always have a book for bribes.
- [10:31]
Carly Waters
You know what, there's been a number of times in my life where I'm like, nobody goes over the intercom and they're like, is there a literary agent in the house? You know, like, like a doctor on a plane. Right there. But there are moments where our job does come in handy. So when I was coming back from. I think I was traveling from Canada back to the UK for my publishing master's graduation ceremony. And my dad was with me because he was coming to watch me graduate. Anyways, we're flying over and we're going through customs, and there's this big, long line. And everybody's very serious at the customs line. And then they say, like, why are you here, basically? And I'm like, okay. I'm like, I'm graduating from, you know, this program. Da, da, da, da, da. And she goes, I did a sister program to that. And so we started chatting about publishing. And then she turns to my dad and she goes, you should be really proud of her. So cute. Yeah, I know. And there's like all these. There's another time at custom. It's always at customs for me when I was traveling for a conference or something like that. They're like, well, what do you do for work? And I'm like, oh, I work in book publishing. And then the guy just like starts asking all these questions, so kind of publishing this, and you think they're like grilling you. And then he's like, I wish I could keep you for a while to talk to you about your job, but there's a line back here. You gotta keep going. For some reason, this always happens to be customs and airports. So I'm like, someday this will come and, you know, in handy. But basically, people are just very curious about our jobs. But anyway, I'm glad that our job came in handy for you.
- [11:45]
Cece Lira
It's useful. It's. I often don't tell people what I do. Like, I will say work in publishing, but I don't say agent. Yeah, but sometimes it's very smart because also a lot of people write books. And so I've gotten. I remember I had an issue with my hotel room. This was a while ago. And I was like, I need a new hotel room, please. And I just mentioned my job, thinking to myself, I. Maybe this person is writing a book. She was. She was writing a book, actually a really good hook. She told me the hook. And I'm like, this is a really good hook. I hope you can write because the hook is fantastic. I don't know. Honestly, I am not above using our jobs if it's going to get me out of trouble. I had to get there for the launch, you know, so it is what it is. I love that story about customs. That's an adorable story. And I Love that your dad went with you.
- [12:28]
Carly Waters
It was really cute. You should be proud of her. I was like, oh, thank you. That was really cute. Yeah, I don't have any dramatic travel stories I'm thinking about. This trip was pretty smooth. Landed. I just landed in la. Really? I guess I do have a good story. So I landed in LA pretty late. But anyway, so I pre. I pre booked a car. So this is a funny story. So my first trip to la, I obviously have to rent a car because, I mean, cc, you maybe don't rent a car, you Uber around, but I rent a car basically because it's a lot of driving. So the car that I get. And this was like my first trip to la, didn't know what I was getting into early on in my career. So like, what is the cheapest car that I can rent? I got a bright green Ford Fiesta. And no shade to Ford Fiestas, but it was just like bright radioactive green. And in la, I'm like, you know, you pull up to these big agencies and everything's valet. And I was just. Anyway, I just felt kind of like I was a bit of a clown car just in the circumstance of, you know, pulling up to all these like Mercedes and Porsches and. Anyway, so my little bright green Ford Fiesta didn't have power windows. CC did not have power windows. So the valet, she had to like do the crank. It was a crank. So anybody that's like Gen Z maybe doesn't know, but we used to have to crank her windows. So the valet comes up to me at UTA and he comes up to the passenger side because like, that's the side he's on. And he's trying to talk to me. And I was like, you need to come around to this side. And then he's like, put down the window. And then I reach over and like crank my window down. He was like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. Like, go park over there. Anyway, so, ma', am, are you sure.
- [13:51]
Cece Lira
You'Re in the right place? Like, I can just picture him.
- [13:55]
Carly Waters
You took a wrong turn. So this time I pre booked a luxury sedan. It doesn't say what luxury is, right? But I was like, okay, I'm just, I'm moving up in the world. I'm going to pre book my. My luxury sedan.
- [14:06]
Cece Lira
Good for.
- [14:07]
Carly Waters
Anyway, so I get to the counter, it's 11 o' clock Pacific, so it's like 3 o', clock, you know, almost. Anyway, middle of the night Eastern time. So I get there, I'm like waiting in line. Da, da. Da, da. And I finally get to the counter to talk to the guy and he, he, he notices that I had already inputted all of my information into this like app system. He's like, oh my gosh, thank you so much for inputting like so I don't have to retype everything. He's like, I'll give you whatever you want. And then he looks and he says that I already requested a luxury sedan or whatever. So then he goes, let me see what luxury cars we have left. And I was like, oh God, now I'm gonna. Anyway, full circle moment. I'm just getting whatever like beater they have left. And I sound very car elitist. But LA is a very car driven town, right? Because it's, it's a lot of driving. So anyway, he's like, I have a Mercedes for you. It's a enormous three row SUV and it's so big and it's just me and I'm like, oh my gosh. So I'm driving around in this very, very large Mercedes.
- [15:02]
Cece Lira
That's terrible because big cars are harder to drive, aren't they?
- [15:06]
Carly Waters
Like, you know, and it's decent, it's good at parking and I do feel like, you know, the valets will hopefully take good care of it. But yeah, I do feel a bit like merging. And I'm like, ah, nobody hit this thing.
- [15:18]
Cece Lira
To quote Cher from Clueless. Yeah, you know when, when people, I think it was, it was her stepbrother who then became her boyfriend, asked her if she wanted to practice parking. She says, what's the point? Everywhere you go has valet. At least you don't have to park.
- [15:35]
Carly Waters
I barely have to park. I park at, I park at Netflix. So I do want to get into my meetings. I know we've been chit chatting so much travel. Sorry everybody. So we need to go through my meetings. So I've had two days of meetings so far. But where, where do you want to start? Do you want to start with meetings or do you want to start with other stuff? What's on your mind?
- [15:49]
Cece Lira
Meetings. Meetings are fun. I want to know if there are any updates from the last time I went. I went in March and I want to know if the stuff you're saying is going to match the stuff that was said in March or if there have been developments. So I'm very curious.
- [16:05]
Carly Waters
So this isn't new, but this kept coming up on Monday repeatedly. And I think I talked about this last time that I was in la, but people are still talking about short stories. Were they talking about short stories. So. And I think we did talk about.
- [16:17]
Narrator/Host
So in March.
- [16:18]
Cece Lira
One person talked about it, but yes, yes, yes. I actually have a fun update on that.
- [16:22]
Carly Waters
But yeah, multiple people were talking about short stories. And I know, I think we made fun of this because it's like we're not saying that people in LA don't read. Is it easier for us to just like, hand somebody a hook and a plot and something that they can read in a shorter amount of time? Is that useful? Yes. And it used to be that the short story had to be published, but now people are saying the short story doesn't even have to be published. It just has to be the short story. So there's a lot of, like, short story sale adaptations.
- [16:48]
Cece Lira
Cece.
- [16:49]
Narrator/Host
But what were you going to say.
- [16:49]
Carly Waters
About an update on this?
- [16:51]
Cece Lira
Well, again, I want to tease, but I don't want to give away too much information. For our deep dive, we're gonna have a film TV person, I don't want to say too much. Who will discuss the success of short stories, unpublished short stories. And she will be open to receiving all attendees. Short stories because. And she actually asked for this. We didn't ask her to be open. She says, will they send me short stories? Because I am so hungry for short stories. So I'm super excited for this because anyway, I'm plugging the deep dive, but I just get so excited with the idea of like, our delegates being able to submit their unpublished short stories because what if there's a gem, right? And I've heard, I'm sure you've heard this too, that. Yes, part of it is the fact that it's short and people can read it really fast. You can also give it to your boss to read it really fast.
- [17:38]
Carly Waters
But yeah.
- [17:39]
Cece Lira
Something that an agent said to me, the agent you and I both see when we go to New York. You know who it is?
- [17:44]
Carly Waters
Yeah.
- [17:44]
Cece Lira
She said if it's beautiful and literary, it's almost an automatic no. Because that's usually not good for adaptations. It usually has to be like super commercial. Super commercial, super fun. I don't know if that's what people have been telling you.
- [17:56]
Carly Waters
Yeah. They didn't talk too much about the plot of it. I mean, we can get into themes and things like that, but it was just the short story. And what surprised me was just the fact that it never be published. That because it used to be people would say, yeah, short stories, you know, does. It could even be substack. It just needs to be out there. But now it actually doesn't even matter with the. Just people want to know if they're connecting with it. Right. You know, how many views it's getting. But anyway, so one thing I think one of the more interesting things somebody said to me, which was an agent at a really large agency, one of my co agents, she said in her career. So she's been doing this about let's say 20 years. This is the time where she feels like the book world and the TV film world are at their most disparate ends. Because there's a lot of times where what's happening in publishing is similar to what's happening in TV film. But she's like, right now I actually feel like these two worlds are very far apart right now. So I found that really interesting and I'll go through some of the reasons.
- [18:45]
Cece Lira
So yeah, I was gonna say how so it's so interesting.
- [18:48]
Carly Waters
Yeah, yeah. So one of the main things that's coming up right now and again this came up in multip meetings was so publishing industry, as you guys know, we've talked about this before, which is a very female driven industry, right? It's you know, a lot of female authors, a lot of books published for the female market in terms of like book club books. And pretty much every genre really is, you know, is tailored in that way. There are some quote unquote, more male categories such as, you know, those airport dad thrillers or some of that, like really serious historicals. You know, the type of books that people buy for their dads or you know, father in law stepdads, that sort.
- [19:20]
Narrator/Host
Of stuff for Christmas.
- [19:21]
Carly Waters
So there are some dad categories. But anyway, generally publishing is seen as a more of like a female driven industry.
- [19:27]
Narrator/Host
So.
- [19:27]
Carly Waters
But she was saying that and multiple people were saying this, that what people want are very uber masculine adaptations right now, which is interesting. So like the, you know, the spy thrillers, the next Sons of Anarchy, like Task. People talked about Task wanting things like that. So that was really interesting that this like push for very masculine, uber masculine, hyper masculine characters and shows. So that was kind of one of those things where it's like, huh, I've.
- [19:58]
Cece Lira
Heard it being called guys with guns solving problems. Like that's the genre people want. They want a guy with a gun solving problems. Which.
- [20:05]
Carly Waters
And there's not as many books doing that. There's obviously some categories. I mean obviously there are books doing that, but not as many as a lot of the other categories. I talked with a bunch of people about Romantasy because obviously that's a very popular category in Books. But nothing has gotten made so far in TV film. And so people don't want to buy more romantasy until they see how the current ones do. They want to wait for Fourth Wing to get made, wait for Acotar to get made. Because the fact that those huge books are struggling, you know, just because so much happens behind the scenes with TV film in terms of.
- [20:38]
Cece Lira
And it's so expensive, like romantic. So expensive to adjust.
- [20:41]
Carly Waters
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:43]
Cece Lira
So they want the proof of concept. Right, that. That makes sense.
- [20:46]
Carly Waters
Yes. And so there's that. I talked about a number of people about dark romance and some of them are. Because again, that's another category that's really hot right now. But they are not really seeing it very big here. They call it erotic thrillers is like kind of the TV film equivalent of it. But I think one of the things somebody said that was really interesting was on the page. And we've talked about dark romance on the show before, so I think everybody's kind of familiar with it. But it comes across very different on the page. When it's an imagination thing in your mind versus seeing it on the screen. The, like, ick factor of some of these dark romances would be very different to portray on the screen versus a read. And people were not confident that it could be done in a way that was, I don't know, just right. So if it's more of erotic thriller. Yes, but like, icky gray zone dark romance will be. I think it will be hard pressed to find a lot of these types of sales. But again, you know, you never know. There's obviously, you know, 50 shades of gray, et cetera, et cetera. So there will be some. But it's like, it's just one of those things where. Yeah, it's just because something's doing really well in publishing doesn't actually mean it's something that people are looking for. And the other thing to mention is we are kind of seeing the results of the writers strike. So the writers strike happened two years ago and people weren't buying during that time because things weren't happening. And so that window of when they were buying now is the time that that stuff would have been coming out. And so we're not seeing as much stuff kind of actively coming out because of that. And so there's like, there's layoffs, there's consolidations. I heard one docu team at a big production company that people would know, they shuttered the docu team. So, yeah, there's like a lot of consolidation. Everybody kind of looking at their budgets and things like that. So it's not as like boom times as it was when the streamers were looking for so much ip. Yeah, but. But people definitely say they're looking for the same type of thing, which is everybody's always looking for big sweeping love stories. I know, Cece, probably, you know, we talked about this last time when you were in la, legal thrillers. People are still looking for spy, espionage, that type of thing. But it does lead to more of that. The stuff we were talking about with more hyper masculine. What else? People are still looking for high concept, book club, voicey, all of that stuff. So it's more just, you know, does that project connect with that co agent or that partner?
- [22:58]
Cece Lira
Have they mentioned anything about what's saturated? I remember when I went, the saturated categories were domestic suspense. Because, you know, it just felt like every, every book felt like the same and they were like, it needs to be really fresh, really fresh, really interesting. And then another one was also rom coms. People were saying, like, there's just too many that feel like the same.
- [23:17]
Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Cece Lira
And they don't feel fresh and original enough. I don't know if, if that's still true or like what people are saying.
- [23:23]
Carly Waters
Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a lot. It's just what, like, what's going to differentiate the romance rom com category? That's a big thing. You know, there has to be something that will make it stand out and be a vehicle, because all of these guys are thinking about what is a vehicle for somebody or what are the mandates that I got. So, for example, like somebody named, like a big name actor, again, somebody that everybody would know, and they're like, oh, he's looking for this. Like, you know, his people told us he wants this, or he came into a meeting, you know, sat down and told us this. And so it's like in this example, he's looking for a historical, you know, and so in general, not a lot of people are not looking for historical. But this one actor, who's hot right now, who gets to choose his next project, he wants historical. Do you know what I mean? So it is very like individual driven. And that's why doing these meetings is so important, because mandates, you know what that actor said in that meeting last week, you know what that producer or showrunner is looking to do next? Those pivot.
- [24:10]
Cece Lira
Yeah.
- [24:11]
Carly Waters
And change, which is really interesting to hear. But in terms of saturation. Yes. What is going to differentiate the romance is super important. Is it something where the later in life Romance. Do you know, like, what's the hook? Who, who is it the vehicle for? That's always super important. What else was I gonna say? Oh, they, I had heard that they're getting a lot of time travel, which is interesting.
- [24:30]
Narrator/Host
And.
- [24:30]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I'm just trying to see all my notes. Escapism, that is one thing that is very similar, I think, between book and book and tv, film, esc. True crime. Things that are cost effective. So that's why historical. I just mentioned historical as being really hard.
- [24:44]
Cece Lira
Yeah. Interesting.
- [24:45]
Carly Waters
At all. My, all my super messy notes, I, I take lots of notes. They're just very messy.
- [24:50]
Cece Lira
But as long as they make sense to you, like, that's all that matters.
- [24:55]
Carly Waters
Yeah, no, they're good. But yeah, that's, that's my, my rundown. I don't think anything, you know, that, that you don't know, cc, but it's always good to give the listeners our rundowns.
- [25:04]
Cece Lira
There's always something. There's always something. You know, it's why I love having these conversations. Sometimes it's brand new information, sometimes it's just a new angle on something we already knew, which is always so useful.
- [25:15]
Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [25:15]
Cece Lira
Wishing you great weekends. Great weekends. Wishing you great meetings ahead. Also great weekends. But that's not what I meant to say.
- [25:22]
Carly Waters
Yes, thank you. Well, yeah, let me know what you guys think in the comments and we'll continue to keep you guys up to date on our travels and all of our adventures. And now we're gonna throw to our sponsors. Sponsors.
- [25:33]
Narrator/Host
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- [27:53]
Cece Lira
Week.
- [27:53]
Narrator/Host
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- [29:28]
Carly Waters
All right, coming back, we have. We got some DMs. We got to talk through some DMs. Cece, where do you want to start with our DMs.
- [29:34]
Cece Lira
Let's do the. I think let's do the vision one. So we got a DM. I'm going to pull this up on my phone so I can properly read it. Okay. So I would love to hear advice on how to balance one's vision for a story with the publishing industry. I know you guys have talked a bit about this before, But I'm using NaNoWriMo, which we'll talk about in a while, to write a story about body image and fatphobia. But I want to make it gritty and intense and sometimes I fear it would be too much for traditional publishing. How does one know what's too much for traditional publishing? And then they send all this really sweet message about our show and how much they, they appreciate it and we appreciate that so much. So, yeah, this question of I want to write something, in this person's case, it's about body image, fatphobia, and they want to make it gritty and intense and they're worried it's too much. So the question is, how does one know it's too much? I feel like this is a really important topic and it's also a very big topic. Like it's very untethered. I don't know if you want to kick us off, Carly.
- [30:37]
Carly Waters
I mean, I guess I don't really have a clear answer because I'm not really sure I've fully Understand the question, like, what is too much? I kind of just explained with, With. With, you know, dark romance and there's like, ick factors and things like that. But like what? Like too much. I guess I don't really understand what they mean by too much. In my opinion, too much for the traditional publishing industry. I don't know, I. I guess I go. My mind goes a couple places. It goes, is it too experimental? Is it something where it's just more literary and outside the kind of confines of a. More of a mass market, you know, general national interest type of book? Sometimes something being too niche. But this doesn't sound like a niche topic. So then I'm like, I don't really. I don't really know why this maybe would be too much. So to me it sounds right on the nose. So sometimes when, like, something feels uncomfortable or you're uncovering something that's actually a good thing and that's not like a. I'm being too much. I think this person's asking, what would the reception be? And would the reception be negative? And so. But in what ways do they think it's going to be negative? And does that ultimately matter to them? Because in publishing all that matters is eventually you kind of like finding that perfect fit. So anyway, I think. I think this is a great topic, but if it comes off more experimental or accusatory, a lot of it depends on, like, tone. Or is it going to be more academic? Right. That's the other thing. If it ends up being more academic, that it's not for mainstream publishing because it's more academic and not like a big five trade book. So that's kind of where my mind goes. I actually don't think this is a problem, the way that this person is presenting it. What do you think?
- [32:15]
Cece Lira
I think. I mean, I like what you said about. What about it is too much? Is it an experimental format? Is it an academic treatment? Is it. I don't know. It could be. I also read it as a possibility too dark. And she's worried that, you know, there's not enough levity or humor or elements that I guess people have been saying they want a lot in their fiction. It could be various things and we don't know the person's not here. But I actually like this question because it touches on what I consider to be the most common mistake that writers make across the board. All genres, all categories. And it's the most overlooked mistake, and that is the mistake of not developing a palette. If you are a chef and you want to create an original dish. And you want this to be a dish that's going to be served at the top restaurants in the world. And again, original dish. This is very important. You're not copying a recipe. Then the first thing you need to do is develop a palate. And you develop a palate by eating out a lot and noticing acidity, salt, fat, sweet, whatever the other senses are. Because I'm not a chef, but. And you study, and you study obsessively, and you reverse engineer not only how the dish was made, but how the public is receiving this dish. You know what? Restaurants are hotter right now because of the. Because of the dishes that people are loving. How much can you push the boundaries of, like, adding more salt and that's still being delicious? And I guess different, but not too different, that people are like, I don't want this. What ingredients can you use? And again, pushing the boundaries but not pushing it too much to the point of, like, alienating people. And developing a palette is something that's very intuitive, I think, for chefs, but I think authors forget about it. I think people forget that just because you've been reading all your life doesn't mean you've been studying the books you've been reading. My question to you is, what books? Not to you, Carly. To you, the person who sent us the dm, what books are comps to your books? How intense and gritty are those books? That is how far you can push it in today's climate. Like that is the answer. The answer you are seeking is in the books that you have to read and to study and to dissect and to obsess over. And maybe someone's listening to this and going, but I don't want to copy books. So developing a palette is not about copying. It's about knowing what the market wants. And then you make it your own. But you don't make it your own by making it completely different. You make it your own with a twist. Are there books that make it totally different? Sure. But, like, most people are not writing experimental works. Most people are not writing the book that's so different. It doesn't even look like a book or a story that's so different that, you know, your brain doesn't see the framework of a story. Most people are writing within the same framework, but making it original in the execution. So to the person who's worried about balancing vision with the market, I ask you, have you studied the market? Most writers have not. Most writers skip this step, and in skipping the step, they shoot themselves on the foot. And the reason why they're not landing an agent, not landing a book deal is because they skipped this essential developing a palette step. And so I ask you, have you done that? And if you tell me I have. I have read a hundred books. I have studied them obsessively. I've reverse engineered how all these storytellers are creating this intense and gritty factor while still keeping curiosity, still leveraging the reader's interest. Then I'm telling you, you have nothing to worry about, because I don't know if your talent's going to take you as far as you want it to, but you've done what you could. You know, like, this is how you balance. You balance your vision by being really intentional about studying the market. Too many people skip this step, and I think people skip it because they think, I've been reading my whole life. I already did it. And there's a difference between having eaten out your whole life as a consumer and eating out your whole life as someone who is studying to become a chef. Like, I just think they're different approaches.
- [36:21]
Carly Waters
No, I think those are all good points. So, yeah, I. I'd be curious what this person's working on, because, as I said, sometimes being uncomfortable.
- [36:28]
Narrator/Host
Good.
- [36:29]
Carly Waters
So I would. I would continue to dig into that. Okay, so we had another DM about NaNoWriMo. NaNoWriMo. National Novel Writing Month. CeCe, how do agents feel about. About NaNoWriMo?
- [36:41]
Cece Lira
Okay, so Nano NaNoWriMo is. Okay, here's. Here's how I feel about NaNoWriMo. In an anecdote, Aaron Morgenstern, author of the Night Circus, she used to tweet. And I remember this tweet as we were approaching November, she would say, we're approaching the time of year again where people say that the Night Circus was written during NaNoWriMo. It was not. I wrote a draft that I then rewrote a million times, and I don't know what the exact details are, because I don't remember, but essentially, she was saying, please stop saying that you can write a book like the Night Circus in a month, because you can't. And I stand by this so much. Like, you cannot write a fantastic publishable book in a month. Oh, there's this one person who does this. First of all, I don't know that I believe them, but if they are the person who does it, they're the exception. Please do not count on being the exception. NaNoWriMo is great in terms of, like, getting people to write. If there is a month, whether it's November or another month in which people are going to carve out time for their writing and get excited about it. Love that. Love that. So excited for you. But if your expectation is to have a publishable work by the end of November, please, dear God, manage your expectations and just, no, don't have that. Be the expectations. And to be clear, the person who asked us the question is not under this impression at all, but she asked us to talk about this. And to me, the number one angle that agents think about when they think about NaNoWriMo is please don't think that that one month is going to be enough. One month is a starting point. Great. I don't know if you disagree, Carly. I mean, how do you feel about NaNoWriMo?
- [38:19]
Carly Waters
No, everything you say is completely true. I think one of the things that I like about it is people making a conscious decision to be committed to their craft. I find that very admirable. It's kind of like when somebody decides, like, I'm gonna do a marathon, you know, I'm gonna train for something. To me, it's such a signal that they are taking it really seriously, because you have to make decision and priority shifts that will center this as the central main character, energy, like, focal point of your. Of your life. You have to tell the people in your life like, hey, I'm prioritizing this this month. This is important to me. Here's why. Can you pick up the slack with childcare, with meal prep, with cleaning the house. Every minute, every spare minute that I get this month, I'm going to be focusing on this. And I think it's like claiming that that energy, claiming that space for yourself, for your passion, is very important. So I really connect deeply with writers who feel like that is going to help them on their footing. You know, it's kind of just like that kickstart to be like, again, it's a draft. By no means am I saying that they're going to write a publishable manuscript just because there's not enough hours in the day. Let's be real, right? Because most people have. Have jobs. So, like, they have to do their day job and they have to do this. And it's obviously just a lot of. So that's the piece that I connect with the most. So I don't really like to downplay how important that mindset shift and establishing those goals, those routines, that sense of community, that sense of working for what you want without shame, I find that very empowering. So I do like that. But Cici said on all the important points, which is don't query it. Don't query it in December, right? Like, you need to spend another year working on something.
- [39:59]
Cece Lira
And I think you mentioned the most important word of all. Priority. If you're making writing your priority, this is a great. This can be a great opportunity. It doesn't work for everyone, but that's okay. Most things don't work for everyone. So I love that. I love that you mentioned priority. And I think that it's really refreshing and inspiring to see writers hunkering down and being like, this is going to be my NaNoWriMo, and I'm going to make it cap, like, awesome. Like, so awesome. I just think that, you know, in the same way that you wouldn't plant a seed and expect to have a tree at the end of a month, you, like, don't expect to have a publishable novel by the end of the month. And, you know, this person also asked this about tips and such. I. I think Carly always gives this great tip, which you kind of mentioned now, which is meal prep. Have someone else prep your meals like you cannot, because we have to eat every day. And, like, if you. If you can find a way to make mealtime easier, that's a great tip. I think. Another really awesome tip I think is. And again, this doesn't work for all people, but having a buddy system, you know, where you can all hold each other accountable and cheer each other on, and if you don't make it in one day, you can be like, that's okay. You can make it the next day. I feel like that's super helpful, too. Above all, like you said, it's about the priority, and I love that.
- [41:14]
Carly Waters
Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. I like, if you can, and if you have a writer in your life, gift them a food service for them. You know, like the. The food box services, the food delivery services. That's a great gift for somebody who's in their editing cave or in their writing cave because, you know, they can tailor to different food preferences and allergies and things like that. Anyway, that's a hot tip as we move into the holiday season.
- [41:35]
Cece Lira
Hot tip.
- [41:35]
Carly Waters
Okay, so.
- [41:36]
Narrator/Host
Hot tip. Hot tip. Hot tip.
- [41:38]
Carly Waters
So, you know, it seems like this conversation around slow periods, dead periods, is unrelenting. People don't seem to want to give up. Up this. This conversation about when they should be querying. So, Cece, do you want to talk about the. The DM we got about this one?
- [41:54]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I'll. I'll read it up for you guys again. There's a lovely note in the beginning and she says, I'm wondering if you and Carly could talk about if there are any slower or quote, dead unquote periods over the next few months of agents not acting on new projects or looking at their query inbox as much, etc. As a writer who is getting ready to query my work, I'm curious if it's better to wait until the new year or if it truly doesn't matter. Slash, depends on the agent. This is a lovely, lovely, lovely person. I've interacted with them online before and I, I feel like, I feel like you're so right. This is an unrelenting topic and for good reason. It's kind of, again, this is kind of like the stock market. If you, if you invest in the stock market, you can learn all sorts of things about, you know, this is how you diversify your portfolio. These are the companies that you might want to invest if you have an aggressive standpoint or a conservative standpoint or, you know, I guess a hybrid one. But people typically, what they obsess over is the timing, but what's the right time? And no matter how many times people say, don't try to time the market because nobody has a crystal ball, people still obsess over the timing as opposed to obsessing over the whole, like, let me learn about how to, how, how to diversify my portfolio. But anyway, that's my stock market analogy.
- [43:10]
Carly Waters
It's a perfect analogy. And there's also been studies about like, you know, whether you put in a little bit a month versus lump sums, like how it all, it's just like.
- [43:16]
Cece Lira
Like dollar cost averaging.
- [43:18]
Carly Waters
Yeah, People, exactly.
- [43:19]
Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [43:19]
Carly Waters
So I, I think that's a great analogy. If we had an answer to this question, it would make everybody's life easier.
- [43:26]
Narrator/Host
Right?
- [43:26]
Carly Waters
Because then be like, okay, well then we will wait till January or Carly said that I should query now because younger agents are hungry to sign new clients before the end of the year or more established agents are just trying to make it to the end of.
- [43:37]
Narrator/Host
The year so that they can just.
- [43:38]
Carly Waters
Like breathe for two weeks. So I do think, you know, everybody is going to be in their own headspace about it. But the best agents know when they see something great, you know, so it's not a matter of like, oh, I'm, I'm not going to look at it, or oh, this timing doesn't work for me as an agent. The timing that works for me as an agent is when I see something great, I reach out and then I Read it and I offer rep because that's my job. And so this whole concept of like, when is the right time? When am I getting an agent in the right mood? You know, what's the right framework for this is like, not really helpful, I don't think, because I think coming at it from I wrote the best book I possibly could. I, you know, edited to the best of my abilities. I pitched a great book. It is ready now. And because it's ready now, now is the right time. Now is always the right time when it is ready. So, I mean, obviously agents close for queries. You know, many agencies close for queries at the holiday season or something like that. Like, just follow the guidelines, basically is the answer. And it's not a revolutionary answer, but this isn't a revolutionary process. We're talking about a system that is, you know, worked this way for a very long time. So good agents will find what they are looking for. And so, yeah, if it's ready, then go.
- [44:51]
Cece Lira
I think so too. I think as much as we would love to have a objective answer, if an agent is open to queries, it's a feasible time whether it's the right time for you. I mean, I once heard of someone who did this thing. She made a spreadsheet and she put the names of all the agents she was going to query, but she wrote them in order of the agents I want the most at the top. So I believe the top 10, I think were like her dream, dream scenario. And she made sure to pick a date in which all of the top 10 were open to queries, but not necessarily the other ones, because she could never find a date where every single one was open. And so maybe that's a strategy you want to consider. I mean, I don't know if it worked or not for her because I never heard about. But this is not someone who writes in my genre at all. But she's a lovely human. And I don't know, I think at the end of the day, you do want to find a time in which most people are not closed because that's just shooting yourself on the foot. But other than that, like, I don't know. I, I will say this. I don't look at my query inbox every day. You know, I don't have time to do it every day. But more importantly, I'm not in the right headspace every day. So we, most agents that I know of look at queries in batches. And so it's probably not going to be looked at on the Same day that you are submitting it. It's kind of like laundry day, you know, like the clothes I'm washing on Saturday, laundry day. I didn't wear them all on Saturday. I wore them throughout the week. But I'm addressing the cleaning of those clothes on Saturday. I have the worst analogies to this.
- [46:22]
Carly Waters
You have a lot of them.
- [46:24]
Cece Lira
They're all over the place, like laundry stock market. Like, what's going on today?
- [46:29]
Carly Waters
Like, oh my God, maybe Cece just has to do laundry after this. And that's why she's thinking I do.
- [46:33]
Cece Lira
Have to do laundry actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:37]
Carly Waters
Oh, it's funny. Yeah. No, this is just like a perennial thing because it comes like to me it just comes from a fear based position. Right? It's like, what if the agent that I want isn't looking at it that day? And it's very fear based. Like I just think like going in with a headset to win versus going in with the headset not to lose are two different things. And so I just want put to of encourage people to be on the offense as opposed to the defense. Here for a sports analogy to wrap us up.
- [47:02]
Cece Lira
There you go, There you go. And of course, that one had to come from you.
- [47:09]
Carly Waters
All right, well that is everything for today guys. Thanks for hanging out with us and we will see y' all another time. Bye.
- [47:15]
Narrator/Host
Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of P.S. literary Agency. Woohoo. It's deep dive time again where we host a two day virtual retreat attended by writers from across the world. And if you haven't been monitoring our socials or subscribing to our substack, you won't know yet that we've announced that this will be our very last deep dive ever. So you definitely don't want to miss it. We'll be focusing on giving you access to a whole host of agents and editors who have worked on some of the last decades best selling books, building a bridge between you and the so called gatekeepers of publishing. Subscribe to our substack or follow us on Instagram so you can be the first to be in the know as we begin to reveal our incredible lineup. Each week, mark these dates in your calendar. The Deep Dive will happen on 31st January and 1st February with pre and post Deep Dive sessions happening the weekends before and after. And make sure you have 12pm Eastern Time on the 21st of November marked in your calendar for the early bird registrations. Woohoo. It's Deep Dive time again where we host a two day virtual retreat attended by writers from across the world. And if you haven't been monitoring our socials or subscribing to our substack, you won't know yet that we've announced that this will be our very last Deep dive ever, so you definitely don't want to miss it. We'll be focusing on giving you access to a whole host of agents and editors who have worked on some of the last decade's best selling books, building a bridge between you and the so called gatekeepers of publishing. Subscribe to our substack or follow us on Instagram so you can be the first to be in the know as we begin to reveal our incredible lineup. Each week, mark these dates in your calendars. The Deep Dive will happen on 31st January and 1st February with pre and post Deep Dive sessions happening the weekends before and after. And make sure you have 12pm Eastern Time on the 21st of November marked in your calendar for the early bird registrations.