Shooting the Shit Live From New York!

Summary

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The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit Live From New York!

Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Date: September 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this special "Live from New York" episode, literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra (P.S. Literary Agency) reunite in NYC after attending the People of Publishing Conference (POPCON), meeting editors, and visiting clients. Broadcasting from their hotel room, they share fresh publishing insights, industry gossip, and personal highlights from their week. Topics covered include book industry trends, takeaways from panels on the creator economy and auctions, and the perennial realities of both the agent and aspiring writer's journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast and Newsletter Updates

• Paid Newsletter Content: The team highlights new, actionable content exclusive to paid subscribers, featuring:

  • Example author questionnaires (by popular request)
  • "Five Jedi Mind Tricks for Surviving and Thriving in Publishing" by Sarah Ackerman, with her story of perseverance after hundreds of rejections ([04:12]).
  • Writing habits from Nick Medina, author of The Whistler ([04:51]).
  • Visual, practical feedback on query letters and first pages for subscribers ([05:01]).

• Why Support Through Paid Newsletter?

  • Carly emphasizes production costs: "In the beginning we were bleeding money, and I do mean bleeding." ([05:41])
  • Free previews are available, but paid support underpins the podcast and newsletter quality.

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2. People of Publishing Conference (POPCON) Recap

a. CEO Panel: Looking Forward in Publishing

• Panelists: John Karp (Simon & Schuster), plus CEOs from Hachette and Macmillan.
• Takeaways:
  • Uplifting, more optimistic than expected.
  • John Karp’s charisma and love of editing: "He killed it on stage. He was so funny... He was born to do this" – Carly ([08:05]).
  • Discussion on book bans and literacy as industry priorities.
  • Diversity gap: "There are more CEOs named John than there are women CEOs in the world?... Those are all men is what I'm saying. Would have been nice to have at least one woman CEO." – Carly ([08:33]).
  • Future CEO speculation, with hopes for gender progress.

b. Creator Economy Panel

• Trends Discussed:
  • Substack, Kickstarter, and audio publishing’s increasing role.
  • Busting old advice—authors should not "go dark" before launching:
    "We're not telling anybody to go dark before the book launch. It's like steady chug, chug, chug." – Host ([10:26])
  • Substack as a platform to test book concepts, especially for sophomore authors with unproven track records ([11:13]).
  • Cultivating and measuring audience engagement prior to pitching.

c. Book Club Fiction Roundtable

• Popularity remains high—especially for titles that generate discussion.
• Success Beyond NYT Bestseller Lists:
  “Actually a really awesome metric of success for publishers and for savvy authors too are steady sales... they sell a good amount of copies every single week.” – Carly ([14:43])
• Intangibles of a “Book Club Book”:
  "A book club book needs to be a book that people want to talk about... Some warmth and some heart were some other things we talked about." – Host ([15:48])
• Acquisition Instincts:
  "She posited that for her, it was like informed gut... it's gut because to a degree, it's kind of like I'm tasting a dish." – Carly ([16:56])

d. Financial Markets Panel

• CFOs discuss publishing advances and profitability:
  • Advances rely on editor enthusiasm, track record, and comp titles ([20:15]).
  • "Every book is a unique product... you can't be too wedded to the data because each book is its own unique product." – Panelist, paraphrased by Carly ([21:39]).
  • Importance of backlist sales and comparable titles for financial decisions.

e. Auction Confidential

• Behind-the-scenes of book auctions:
  • House bidding rules at major publishers; only one editor per imprint bids.
  • Formats: Round-robin, “as best,” and run-offs.
  • Agents balance information carefully; auctions display their value.
  • Editor fatigue: "Editors really wanted clear rules and a sense of finality... They don't want it to potentially be able to go on forever and ever and ever." – Carly ([25:18])

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3. Editor and Client Meetings in NYC

• In-person meetings rekindle energy post-pandemic:
  "It was such a good homecoming... seeing so many agent colleagues, editor colleagues, so many people just, like, out and about in a way that they hadn't really been in a long time." – Host ([31:49])
• Pitching Styles:
  CeCe loves pitching books face-to-face—even if the title won't be ready for a year or more.
• Book Recommendations from Editors:
  • Quicksilver series
  • The Correspondent
  • Frozen River
  • Broken Country, All Fours, Escola
  • The Bandit Queens discussed as a personal favorite and agenting "fan girl" moment ([30:07]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Substack Strategy:
  "You can maybe play around with your social media, with your substack, and see what kind of engagement you get, like what your audience is responding to more... it could be like a new thing." – Carly ([11:13])

• On the importance of steady sales:
  “However, they sell a good amount of copies every single week. Every single week. And they've been doing it since they came out. And that is so awesome for publishers, and it's awesome for authors because it means that... publishers are going to be like, yes, absolutely.” – Carly ([14:43])

• On the auction process:
  "Auctions... are a very clear, very explicit way to demonstrate [an agent's] value. Like, we got all these editors to be interested in your project, and it is... curating a submissions list." – Carly ([23:33])

• On industry gatherings post-pandemic:
  "If you give people a reason to come out and get together, they'll do it, as demonstrated by popcon." – Host ([13:32])

• On in-person pitching:
  "I love pitching in person... You sit down and you talk about books. Yes, sign me up." – CeCe ([28:00]–[28:55])

• On the enduring joy of the job:
  "I have never gotten over the fact that I can get books before they come out... Like, you don't get over it. Like, it's the best." – Carly ([27:09])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote |
|---------------|----------------------------|
| 03:23 | Recording live from NYC—intro to the episode theme
| 04:30 | Sarah Ackerman’s "hundreds of rejections" story
| 06:43 | Beginning POPCON/People of Publishing discussion
| 07:10 | CEO panel reflections
| 08:33 | Gender diversity among publishing CEOs
| 10:26 | Mythbusting "going dark" before book launch
| 11:13 | Substack as proposal testing
| 13:32 | Value of in-person events post-pandemic
| 14:43 | Importance of steady sales over bestseller status
| 16:56 | "Informed gut" in book acquisitions
| 19:00 | Editor meetings anecdotes and book gossip
| 20:15 | Financials: advances, risk, and editor sway
| 23:33 | Auctions as an explicit agent value-add
| 25:18 | Editors' desire for auction process finality
| 28:00 | Preferences for pitching books in person
| 30:07 | Personal highlight: Bandit Queens fangirl moment
| 31:49 | "Homecoming" energy among publishing professionals

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Conclusion

This episode offers a lively, insightful panorama of current trends in publishing from the literal front lines of the industry in New York. With candid talk about rejection and resilience, emerging strategies for book launches and career development, insider mechanics of agenting and acquisitions, and a reinvigorated sense of community, Carly and CeCe deliver actionable wisdom and camaraderie for every writer or industry insider.

As always, expect a blend of book recommendations, honest realities, and laughter—proving that even in the high-stakes world of publishing, a little gossip and a lot of heart still matter.

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Transcript

[Carly Waters]

What's up everyone?

[Cece Lira]

This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that? Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course, Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes, and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter, studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[Bianca Marae]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't as yet found your writing Soulmates the next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.

[Narrator/Host]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and CeCe Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, everybody. We're in the same place.

[Carly Waters]

Hello, everyone.

[Narrator/Host]

We are live from New York City. We are doing our best. We're recording, you know, from a hotel room here. We can't make any promises about noise or Internet quality or sound quality, but we didn't want to miss a beat because we are live from New York meeting. We have had editor meetings and client meetings, and we went to the People of Publishing conference. So we have lots to talk about. But kick us off, cece.

[Carly Waters]

Live from New York. It's the shit. No one tells you about writing. Shooting the shit.

[Narrator/Host]

Shooting the shit about shooting the shit live in New York.

[Carly Waters]

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, gosh. Hi, everyone. Apologies in advance to our editor, who will have a lot of editing to do in this episode because I'm a klutz and we are in a very precarious situation over here in terms of balancing our laptops, our microphones. We are doing our best, everyone. Thank you so much for bearing with us. So, okay, let's talk about our newsletter, because I have heard there's some really exciting things in our newsletter. You might remember that. I think in one of the very first Shoot the Shit episodes, we discussed the author questionnaire, and a lot of you were like, yes, please. We want to see an example of an author questionnaire. Well, our paid subscribers will be able to see that in our upcoming newsletter. So make sure to subscribe. Please support us. We do the newsletter with a lot of love, and it can't exist without your support.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, we're going to run through some things that are in the newsletter tomorrow, so we're linking this all together. Tomorrow, we. We have five Jedi Mind Tricks for Surviving and Thriving in Publishing by Sarah Ackerman, bestselling author of nine novels. Sarah had hundreds of rejections on four novels before she finally got her agent. So you're definitely going to want to read this one.

[Carly Waters]

Hundreds of rejections. Like, I love these stories. These are the best publishing stories. So Jane Hamilton, who's had two books chosen for Oprah's Book Club, Coolest Thing Ever, talks about how she sent out her query letter to 20 agents and how everyone rejected her except the last person on her list. It only takes one. Yes. So we keep saying that. We keep saying, yeah. And it's true.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. Then we also have Nick Medina, author of The Whistler shares five practices that he adheres to, the tried and true habits that have helped him reach his writing goals.

[Carly Waters]

Okay. We also have written critiques from last week's books with hooks in which Leslie joined us on the show. We had a lot to unpack, much of which we didn't get to during the episode because, again, limited time. So you'll really want to see our written notes. And for those of you who are visual learners, like, I can't stress enough how awesome those visual notes are. Picture a word document with, like, line notes and actual practical, actionable tips. So it's really useful.

[Narrator/Host]

So this is a Tuesday newsletter, which means it's a paid subscriber issue. So if you are not a paid subscriber, you go to substack.comheshit about writing and subscribe. That's how you get access to the Tuesday newsletters.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And, you know, for anyone wondering, why do we have a pain newsletter to begin with? This podcast is not cheap. And let me tell you, in the beginning, we were bleeding money, and I do mean bleeding. I still remember we all had to make this really significant financial investment for something we wanted to do early on. And of course, it was so worth it, and we're so happy to do it. But, like, there's a lot of costs with editing this podcast, keeping this podcast, running this podcast, I'm saying podcast. But, like, we've obviously expanded beyond that, right? Like, newsletter and everything that goes into it. So part of how you can support us is the paid newsletter. You know that not everyone can do that. And there are also ways for you to get a free sample of that paid newsletter on substack, so you can check it out to see if you. If you like it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, we want to keep up the highest quality, you guys, so it's super important to us. So that is everything that's going to be in the newsletter tomorrow. And now we are going to pivot to everything happening in New York. But first, a word from our sponsors, and now everything that happened in New York.

[Carly Waters]

Well, let's talk about all of New York City. No, but seriously. So we went to the People of Publishing Conference organized by the association of American Literary Agents, popcon, for those in the know. It was so much fun. It was the best. It was also the longest day ever. Like, the longest day ever. It started at 8 in the morning, and it went on till the evening. And we had so many cool things. So first up, what do we do? First up.

[Narrator/Host]

First up, we got there, checked in, kind of mingled with each other. I met a guy who had just graduated and was looking for his first publishing job. So I sat with him at a table and talked to him about different ways maybe he could get into the biz. So that was how I started my day. Said hi to some friends. And then the first thing was the CEO panel. There was the two Johns and David from Simon and Schuster, Hachette and McMillan. Those were the CEOs. And it was actually a much more uplifting conversation than I thought it was going to be. What did you think?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I thought so, too. So John Karp, who is the CEO of Simon and Schuster, is stepping down soon. And I have to say, like, I keep hearing from everyone that John was not born to be a CEO in his opinion, because he loves editing books. The man killed it on stage. He was so funny. Like, I think he was born to be a CEO, but, like, the best.

[Narrator/Host]

Part was when they were like, you know, ask us about the best part of your job. Job. And he's like, guess what's coming out next Tuesday?

[Carly Waters]

And then all the books, like, plugging the books. He was born to do this. Like, he's so good on stage, so charismatic. Yeah, it was the best.

[Narrator/Host]

And I love. And the other. John just made such a heartfelt plea for just, like, literacy and how important it is in the book banning movement and how it's hurting the industry. So they all were such. I don't know. It surprised me, I guess, how upbeat it was, because I. There's been years in publishing where things were a little bit down, I would say. So anyway, I thought it was really upbeat. So CEO panel, which was great, I.

[Carly Waters]

Will say, though, we have to talk about. I would not be being fully honest if I didn't mention this. Do you know that statistic that there are more CEOs named John than there are women CEOs in the world?

[Narrator/Host]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

I feel like yesterday was a good example of that.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. And, yeah, the picture I took was just like, white dude, white dude, white dude, white dude, all four of them. There was a wonderful introduction from Regina and Lynn, both from the aala, but the rest of it was just, you.

[Carly Waters]

Know, those are all men is what I'm saying. And they did a really great job. Like, this also has to be said, would have been nice to have at least one woman CEO. Maybe someday, maybe next year we'll be recording this and be like, yeah, we do have a woman CEO now.

[Narrator/Host]

Well, as you said, John stepping down. So we don't know. There's Lots of buzz, lots of conversation this week about who will be taking the CEO job. A lot of people said that nobody actually wants the CEO job. They said that to me too. So we're not sure about who actually wants this job or who's been offered this job. There were some names floated around. Obviously we're not going to perpetuate any gossip on this show.

[Carly Waters]

Wait, but like, don't say the name, but like, did you hear that? There's that one person who really doesn't want it. Yeah, Everyone, everyone's like, she was she. And it's a she. It's a she.

[Narrator/Host]

It is a she.

[Carly Waters]

She would be great, but she doesn't want it.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, well, I also think she. I actually do think she'd be great. But anyway, moving on from that, the next thing we did was a creator economy.

[Carly Waters]

Right, Creator economy panel. Exactly.

[Narrator/Host]

Looking at our notes now, because we both made notes.

[Carly Waters]

We have notes.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, we have notes. What do you think that you learned in that one?

[Carly Waters]

Okay, what did I learn? First of all, I was surprised by the fact that we even had the Creator economy panel. Like positively surprised. Because to me, that was excellent. It was really awesome to talk about substack Kickstarter audio. I really enjoyed that. I don't know that anything was particularly surprising to me.

[Narrator/Host]

One good myth busting thing that I really liked because there were as you know, so many shifts in the creator economy over, you know, however many years I've been doing this. But one of the things was a good reminder is when I started in publishing, people were told to kind of go dark before the book came out. So you'd like build up your platform, maybe you were on TV and then it would be like, go dark before your book launch. That when your book launch happens, it's like, oh, it's fresh, it's popping. We're not like tired of this person in the media now. We are telling all of our authors and I think that makes sense when you guys think about it. But we're not, we're not telling anybody to go dark before the book launch. It's like steady chug, chug, chug. Like lots of socials, lots of posts. You're not supposed to go dark. You're supposed to continue the momentum. Cause you don't want the algorithm to kind of drop off and then have to like chug back up on the algorithm. So just a reminder, we don't go dark anymore before pub. It's just like, go strong. Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

New world. I, I really liked also the fact that People on the panel reminded us that it's. It's good to use substack as a way to kind of, like, test the waters of a proposal. So as agents, when we sell nonfiction, we often build a proposal and then we sell that. And if you're like, I don't know, like, maybe you're creator and you're like, I don't know which book I want to do first, there's this book and that book, and you can maybe play around with your social media with your substack and see what kind of engagement you get, like, what your audience is responding to. More. There isn't a guarantee that whatever your audience is responding to will be what editors want. But I did think the idea of, like, experimenting could be interesting, especially for sophomore authors whose first books did not take off. So that was a question that was asked, like, how do you measure how hot an author is? Like, whether you want to acquire something? And as we've discussed on this podcast many, many times, for nonfiction, you really have to be an expert. And if you're writing your second book and your first book did not take off, how do you make a case to publishers that the second book will be different? Well, if you start, for example, a substack and you didn't have a substack before, that could be like a new thing. Because editors could go in to the meeting and be like, well, okay, the first book didn't break out, but they now have a sub stack and their sub stack is doing really well.

[Narrator/Host]

Or it's like a series. You like, iterate on a series. It's like, oh, this series picking up, let's build that into a book. Or the series that you thought was taking off on your sub stack as you serialize what you're working on doesn't really take off. Let's pivot and do another series on substack. So you're not writing a book proposal on something where it's, like, not really hitting with your audience. Which I thought that was good advice.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah, I really like that. So then we went to the.

[Narrator/Host]

Oh, I wanted to say one more thing about in person events, because I think there was a big push they said to get back to in person events. Obviously, this was a creator economy conversation. So this is about people who have platforms, obviously, large followings. And getting people to events is obviously super important. So if you can get people to events, people want to be in, you know, together. So just a great reminder, if it does work for you, if you have a Large enough following to get people out and about. You know, there's a lot of conversation about how to, you know, work with partnerships and different ways to do that because we had people from, you know, Kickstarter talking about how they help people with book launch launches. The substack people were there. So anyway, lots to lots to think about as we kind of move into this like, you know, post covet era of people spending so much time online and then wanting to be in person again. If you give people a reason to come out and get together, they'll do it, as, you know, as demonstrated by popcon.

[Carly Waters]

And it was like, full. Like there were a lot of people there. A lot.

[Narrator/Host]

I had to wait 20 minutes for lunch and I happily waited because, you know, I need my food. But yeah, I was busy.

[Carly Waters]

We all got to sit around and have lunch together. After the that panel, we went to a roundtable and we were actually at the same roundtable. We did not agree on this or anything. Like, we just happened to be like. We both chose the same roundtable, which was fun. It was all about book club fiction. Did anything stand out to you there?

[Narrator/Host]

We all agreed it's still a very popular category. And we talked about historical. What could work within historical fiction in book club? We talked about all the books that we kind of agreed were book club. And the ones that kind of popped off this year. I was building a list on my, like, other page of all the books that I have to go read and buy now. What about you?

[Carly Waters]

So the first thing we talked about was like, how do you measure success apart from the list? Right. Live one list everyone wants to belong to. Let's just be honest. And then you mentioned, well, the obvious.

[Narrator/Host]

Next thing is if we're on a book club roundtable, we should be talking about the celebrity book clubs. And so that's obviously another metric of success in the book club space.

[Carly Waters]

And then we talked about also, like steady sales. So this is something that's really interesting. A lot of authors, they dream about debuting books big, so first week, New York Times bestseller list, like, that's the dream. So awesome. So happy for you if that happens. It is very, very rare. I don't remember what the statistic is, but like.00, whatever. However many.01% of books actually do that. But actually a really awesome metric of success for publishers and for savvy authors too, are steady sales. You know that book that never made the list, There were a few books that were mentioned, titles that surprised me that they didn't make the List because they're so big. Y make the list. However, they sell a good amount of copies every single week. Every single week. And they've been doing it since they came out. And that is so awesome for publishers, and it's awesome for authors because it means that when at us as agents, like, we're pitching your next book, publishers are going to be like, yes, absolutely. They're going to look at your track record, see the steady sales, and they're going to be so excited to work with you.

[Narrator/Host]

And one of the things we talked about is, like, what makes a book club book, obviously. So we did talk about the kind of warmth and heart that's required for a book club book. As you guys know, I always say a book club book needs to be a book that people want to talk about. Because a lot of people think they have a book club book. And it's like, do they really? But some warmth and some heart were some other things we talked about.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And then so Sarah Canton was leading the roundtable discussion along with Michelle from Trellis, and Sarah asked a really cool question, which was, how do you know, like, as agents, as editors. They were both at this roundtable, but, like, how do you know when something's good? You know, when you're considering a submission, whether at the acquiring editor level or agent level? And she asked, is it gut? Is it instinct? Is it, like, something that you know how to reverse engineer and pinpoint? She's much more eloquent than I'm being right now. And she posited that for her, it was like informed gut. Is that the term she used? And I loved that. I'm like, it is an informed gut. Like, it's gut because to a degree, it's kind of like I'm tasting a dish. Right? Like, if I'm tasting a dish and it's. It's in my mouth and I'm chewing it, I know whether it tastes good or not.

[Narrator/Host]

We have developed a palate, if you want to continue with the food metaphor.

[Carly Waters]

Exactly. I don't often know why it tastes so good because I'm not the chef. I'm not the person who knows that it was actually honey, like that dash.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Carly Waters]

Honey, that made it so special. But I know that it tastes good at the same time, though, because we taste so many things, we can often spot things like the right amount of sea salt. You know, the right amount of sea salt is perfect. So me and my food analogies, yes.

[Narrator/Host]

We did have lunch at some point. Actually, this was actually when we had lunch. So we had a lunch break. I went for a walk with an editor who I hadn't seen in a really long time. It was right by Central park, which was where the event was. So I went on a walk with Kat Brzezowski, who works on the kid lit side. And I don't do kid lit anymore. And I used to love hanging out with Kat and going to meetings together and her and I just had like a really gossipy walk through Central Park.

[Carly Waters]

Love gossip. Gossipy.

[Narrator/Host]

So much fun. So anyway, she was, she was a hoot. We'd had a little gossip sesh and caught up and then we went to financial markets.

[Carly Waters]

Yes. Which is basically like CFOs talking about money. Fun, right?

[Narrator/Host]

And accounting. And you know, one of the things I actually really loved about that talk and I was actually really excited for it, one of the things I loved about the talk was how they said if it like these people who work in the kind of Accounting and finance side of creative industries. Love to be a creative. And even though they like are a numbers person, they're an sell nerd. They, you know, they love modeling out different outcomes. They really are creatives at heart, if that makes sense. So they just said basically they can go work in any industry they want. They can go work in finance and I banking, whatever they want. But they work in creative industries because they care so deeply about content and media and creation and creators. So I actually really love that like human element of it. I wasn't quite expecting that much heart. But what did you think?

[Carly Waters]

I loved it. I really appreciated that angle too. I also thought it was interesting when so someone asked them like, so what goes into that decision? Like that decision to pay a certain amount of money to approve a certain, certain tier of advance. And I forget who it was, but one of the panelists said, you know, it's a mix of editor enthusiasm and the editor's track record matters. Like if it's an editor who's often right, we're thinking of a few, then of course, you know, they, they carry a little bit more sway. But also like comp titles. Right. And it also depends on like how much money the editor is asking for. So if something is low cost, they might be more willing to take certain risks. There's a qualitative reasoning to it. But something that was really, really stressed. It was the Penguin cfo, right? That's. It was, I think, yeah, yeah, Pretty sure she was the Penguin cfo. But something that was she really stressed, which I really liked, was every book is a unique product. So to a degree, like you can't. No, no. Right. The financial projections that go into a book are not the same as the financial projections that go into other, more ob industries because each book is so unique. And yeah, you have the comps, you can say this will be the next X, the next Y. They don't know that. Like nobody actually knows that. So I thought it was interesting that she mentioned that. I thought it was really interesting that she mentioned how you can't be too wedded to the data because each book is its own unique product.

[Narrator/Host]

And you know, I think again, didn't learn a ton in terms of like how editors buy books. We know how they buy books, but it really just reiterated the basics, which is they are going to determine the price point based on backlist sales. Right. How. How did the previous track do for that author and comps. And if they don't have a backlist track, it a lot depends on those Comps. So how often do we talk about comps? Every episode of the show. I don't think there's an episode that goes, by the way. This is why.

[Carly Waters]

Right. Like, do you guys want to make money? Money's fun. So this is why.

[Narrator/Host]

That's what we learned in the money chat.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, let's move on to the auction conversation. This was a juicy one. Yeah. Y.

[Carly Waters]

Auction Confidential.

[Narrator/Host]

This was the last panel, I believe, of the day. So everybody was kind of in this huge hall. Lots of agents, obviously, because it was, you know, put on by the association of American Literary Agents. So tons of agents in the room. On the stage was, I want to say, four to five editors and two, eight. Three agents. Is that right?

[Carly Waters]

I think two agents.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Four editors. Oh, because also the moderator was also.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, yeah. So anyway. Split.

[Carly Waters]

Editors and agents.

[Narrator/Host]

Yes. Yeah, yes. Deconstructing. So they started kind of at the beginning of like. Like, you know, their thought process in terms of when the submissions come in and the buying process. But really the conversation was auctions and basically how they run them. How do they know they're going to want to get in on it? They talked about house bids, which means, you know, at certain publishers, there's rules about, for example, Simon and Schuster. Not everybody can kind of go in and bid against each other. They kind of decide who's the most excited, and that person runs with it. So we talked about house bids. We talked about the format of auctions, like round robins versus as best bids and runoffs and how everybody kind of does that. And yeah, it was really interesting to see how much information editors wanted versus how little the agents wanted to give. And the power. The power positioning of everything. It was interesting.

[Carly Waters]

It was so much fun. I forget who said this, but something that I thought was really, like. It felt very instantly familiar to me when this person said this. Was that auctions? It's one of the ways that agents can demonstrate the value that they add to a client's life. You know, what they're bringing to the table. Like, it's not that that's the only way to demonstrate that, but it is a very clear, very explicit way to demonstrate that value. Like, we got all these editors to be interested in your project, and it is a. Like curating a submissions list. You need to know someone's taste. Think about how hard that is. Like, in your own life, you know, other readers that you might know, friends that you might have, like, picking the right book for them based on, you know, their personal interests, based on where they've lived. Often editors will tell us, like, oh, I spent a summer in Italy, so I would love a book set in Italy. You know, my husband's from Ireland, I'm from Arizona. I want books from these two places. You know, I love books about food because my grandmother used to cook all these awesome recipes. There's so much that goes into figuring out someone's taste. And when an auction happens, of course, first and foremost, it's because your story is amazing. But it's also because the agent knew exactly who to go to. And that was really interesting.

[Narrator/Host]

And there's high demand. We talked a lot about, like, how do you determine what the market value is for it? What does one editor want to pay? They talked about the example of, like, maybe somebody sees this as like a hundred thousand dollar book, but they know somebody else is going to see this as a $500,000 book. So, like, do they want to go through all of this process just to kind of not be in the running in that sense? And they talked about how much work auctions are. They are a ton of work because the editors have to pull together, like, all of this data, talk to their bosses, get all the reads, do the call with the author and the agent again, pull together all of this data, put the offer together, and go through all of the rounds. And it's emotionally and physically taxing.

[Carly Waters]

It really is. It really is. I. I really got the sense that, like, editors really wanted clear rules and a sense of finality.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Like, what are the rules of this auction? I want it to be really clear and I want, like. They don't want it to potentially be able to go on forever and ever and ever. They want to know when it's going to end.

[Narrator/Host]

Smiling. Because there's. Every book is different. Every auction is different, and it will end.

[Carly Waters]

This is not the never ending story. Right. But, like, perhaps we don't have that clear sense of finality from the get go. Perhaps that will be revealed like a plot twist. Yes. Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

And it is.

[Carly Waters]

It's a plot twist.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

I don't think that's gonna stick if I say that plot twist. I don't think that's gonna stick.

[Narrator/Host]

I think I'm not gonna happen. I'm not gonna like that.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. Okay, well, we won't do that then.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. But yeah. So that was kind of the rundown. Did you have any, like, greater takeaways from the day?

[Carly Waters]

No, No, I thought it was really good. I thought it was really, really interesting. Just felt grateful to be in the room, filled with people who also love books, also want to work with stories and storytellers. And it was awesome.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, it was good. And then Cece and I have also been very busy doing meetings at all the publishing houses, seeing clients. I had a TV film meeting, which was great this week. So we're. We're very busy.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. For the meetings. This is my favorite part. You have the like first time meetings where it's like the best. Right. You're getting to know someone, but you also have like, we're friends at this point meeting. And then you get to gossip more. Gossip is fun. It's always nice gossip. You guys don't have to worry. But it's still a lot of fun.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. And we have a. The microphone is currently sitting on the stack of books that cece has been given this week. That is where all of these are.

[Carly Waters]

It's true. It's many books.

[Narrator/Host]

It's many books.

[Carly Waters]

Many, many pets. And yeah, I. It's the best. Like, I. I have never gotten over the fact that I can get books before they come out. People told me when I first started Adrian thing, it's so great. But you'll. You'll get over it. Like.

[Narrator/Host]

Like, you don't get over it.

[Carly Waters]

I don't get over it. Like, it's the best. Like, I can read a book before the book is published. Do you know how cool that is?

[Narrator/Host]

Did you leave room in your suitcase for all this?

[Carly Waters]

I check luggage.

[Narrator/Host]

Of course.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. Okay, good. Thank God.

[Narrator/Host]

What I carry on people.

[Carly Waters]

A lot of people judge us. Like when we went to London, I remember texting Carly. Oh, so what are you doing in terms of luggage? She was like, I'm checking a large. The bag. And I was like, thank God. And we decided if our luggage got lost, we would just go shopping.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

But anyway, yes, I do have a very large suitcase and I have a carry on that's empty. So I am all good. I just love books.

[Narrator/Host]

That's great. I'm trying to think if there's any other hi A Points. I need to look through the rest of my notes here in terms of what we learned. Cece, do you pitch books in your meeting or do you do more? Just like, here's what's coming down the pipeline. Of course, it probably depends on the book and the editor, but are you like a pitch in person? Person?

[Carly Waters]

I love pitching in person.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, Yeah, I love it. She's good at it, actually. I've seen you in person.

[Carly Waters]

You are amazing at it. No, I, I love pitching in person. I. I Got my start as an agent at the London Book Fair, and I did not have books to pitch because I. Hello. This is what agenting is like. I had nothing to pitch. But I remember talking about books and just being like. Like, this is the best. You sit down and you talk about books. Yes, Sign me up. So I love it. I always try to pitch something, even if it's something that won't be ready for a while. I have a historical novel that probably won't be ready till 2026, but that's okay, because something I always tell editors is I work with my clients very closely, editorially, and when it's ready, it's ready, and I don't rush them. And every editor tells me, I appreciate that agenting style. Sometimes they mention that there are agents who pitch them multiple books a month, and they don't understand how anyone could handle that many books. Which, by the way, if you can, good for you. No judgment, but I. I'm a take it slow sort of person.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. What books were recommended to you? I know you're gonna go home with a stack, but I was making a list of books that were talked about. This Quicksilver series. Have you read this Quicksilver series?

[Carly Waters]

Everyone mentioned it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, a lot of people talking about this. There's a second book coming out in the series. I think it's a. I don't want to misspeak. I think it's a Hachette series, I'm pretty sure. But there's. Quicksilver is the first book, and I think there's a second one. Brimstone. I might be misspeaking. Those were on my list. The Correspondent people were talking about the Correspondent. I haven't read that. Frozen River. Very popular. I'm sure tons of you guys have heard about that. Broken Country, All Fours, Escola. Was there anything else that you heard people talking about?

[Carly Waters]

No, pretty much the same ones. Oh. A really fun thing happened. I had a meeting today with an editor who is currently at HarperCollins, but before was at Penguin at her Random House. And she was talking to me about her taste. It was my first meeting with her, so I didn't know her taste super well beyond, like, my research. And again, first meetings, it's all like, hey, this is me. This is my taste. And she mentioned there was a book she read and went to bat for back when she was working at Valentine. And she's like, I don't know if you've heard of it. The Bandit Queens. And I'm like, stop. Stop right now. Stop. You don't understand.

[Narrator/Host]

One of your favorite books.

[Carly Waters]

People think I repped that book. I didn't because of how often I talk about it. Like, it's true fandom. I'm like, you don't understand. I harass Bourini Shroff because I'm like, where is your next book? I'm not her agent. Like, I shouldn't care this much.

[Narrator/Host]

I do, though.

[Carly Waters]

I do.

[Narrator/Host]

Oh, I love that. Well, that's kind of like the high. The high notes. As you guys know, we do editor meetings where they talk about what they want to buy, what they just lost, what they're excited about. Oh, we didn't talk about the mixer we went to on Tuesday night. We went to an agent editor mixer. See, there's so much going on, which our former colleague Claire Harris put together, which was great. Great turnout.

[Carly Waters]

Like, everyone came.

[Narrator/Host]

It was at a pub right by the New York Public Library, right at Bryant Park. I was walking by the library, and there was a fashion show going on. Because in New York Fashion Week, all these people were, like, out with their phones taking pictures. I was like, I don't know who that is, and I have a book party to go to. I do love fashion, But I was like, I can't stand around and just put my phone up in the air and see who's gonna show up for this fashion show.

[Carly Waters]

Well, you're very fashionable. You are. You're probably, like, sitting in.

[Narrator/Host]

Oh, yes. It's too kind. You're too kind.

[Carly Waters]

But it's true. She's fashionable. You guys agree with me.

[Narrator/Host]

You're very kind. But what did we learn at our. At our mixer?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I had a bunch of people tell me, because of the move, right? Because I'm in a new agency now. Everyone's like, oh, wait, wait, you move. What's. What's. You know, what's going on? Like, tell me about it. It hasn't been. It's been a month now as of the time of this recording. So, yeah, I met with a lot of editors, and it was actually really fun because there were editors who were there, and it was so full that I didn't get to chat. But then I had meetings with them, and they were like, oh, were you at the mixer too? Like, it was a super popular mixer. Yeah, a lot of editors. More editors than agents, I felt.

[Narrator/Host]

Oh, interest.

[Carly Waters]

Um, but then at the conference, more agents than editors, so that was a nice balance.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

You know, a lot of.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, yeah, it was great. Well, I feel like it was such a good homecoming this week of seeing so many agent colleagues, editor colleagues, so many people just, like, out and about in a way that they hadn't really been in a long time. So I have had a great week. It is Thursday evening when we're recording this. I still have two meetings tomorrow. Having breakfast with my client, Jane Healy, who wrote the Women of Arlington hall, which you guys know with my Billboard book. So Jane and I are going to have breakfast and then I am having a match, a date to match, a meeting with an editor, and then I fly home tomorrow afternoon.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, awesome. Wait, when's your flight?

[Narrator/Host]

What time? I have to go through Montreal. 3:30. Out of Laguardia.

[Carly Waters]

I wouldn't have the same.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, yeah. Are you out of LaGuardia?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Maybe we'll see you in the afternoon.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. In the lounge. Okay. Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Yay.

[Carly Waters]

All right, we'll hang out.

[Narrator/Host]

Lounge date. Yeah. All right, well, thanks for hanging on. I hope this recording went okay. As you guys know, we are out of our element, but we wanted to be live from New York and we were live from New York and we did it.

[Carly Waters]

An apology. These to our editor, our poor editor, who's for sure going to slack us being like, you guys did this wrong or that wrong. So thank you.

[Narrator/Host]

All right, guys, take care.

[Bianca Marae]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.

[Cece Lira]

What's up, everyone? This is cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits. When working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that, infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course, writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and stakes in your story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes, and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter studio and live critiques of selecting first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast guests website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[Bianca Marae]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader Matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't as yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamaraill.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.