B (3:09)

Awesome, Carly. Thank you so much. All right, what was the word count there and what was your take on that?

A (3:15)

All right, so everybody's getting so good at writing in their word counts for us. So thank you, everybody. So this one clocked in at 3:05. I think it's because everybody wants to like subtract their little welcome greetings. So they're like 305 excluding paragraph one. So. You guys are all, all adorable. We are not keeping track that closely of, you know, of how long everybody's hello paragraphs are. Okay, so we have a lot of comps going on here. We have, obviously the Bachelor has to kind of ground this as the 25th anniversary of a reality show such as this. So we're assuming it's the Bachelor. She says it's the Bachelor. We got Death on the Nile. We have the Golden Spoon. We have the Mate. That's a lot of comps. So I think we definitely just need to keep it to reality TV show books because obviously there are a number of those. I don't think we need the Agatha Christie. I mean, unless this is like one of those things where it's deeply inspired by and kind of like follows the exact plot beats of it, which it doesn't sound like it does. Sounds like it's more related to reality tv. So, yeah, so I would keep the Golden Spoon. I haven't read the Golden Spoon, but I would keep the reality TV comp and. And find something else, I think that gets at the. The whodunit. If there isn't a whodunit in the Golden Spoon, I wouldn't be using the Maid and I wouldn't be using Agatha Christie. So this query letter follows, you know, that style. For those of you that obviously aren't looking at it like I am, it follows the every paragraph is like, indented. Just keep it all Left aligned. Because you know what happens when you paste this into an email. You can't keep this perfect indent, you know, first line of every paragraph, indent. So just like, keep it all left aligned just to make it easier for yourself. It doesn't make it easier for us. And I know some people just like to follow, you know, classic letter format, but just assuring you guys just a classic left alignment is fine. So I feel like. And I'm totally going to admit something here which you guys can roast me for, but I have never seen or watched or seen on stage Mamma Mia. But isn't this similar to Mamma Mia. Where they're, like, searching for a lost dad? Isn't that the plot of Mamma Mia. A little bit. So I don't know. I was kind of like, is that something that could work here potentially? Because we're. I don't know. It's both of. Both Bianca and Cece are kind of looking at me like, no. Okay. Not right at all.

B (5:26)

No, no. I think they. I mean, it's been so long since I've watched it, but there was something about a dad, right? Weren't all the guys invited to figure out which one was the dad?

C (5:36)

Every time we go, we travel together. You want to watch shows and you've never watched Mamma Mia.

A (5:41)

I've never seen Mamma Mia.

C (5:42)

What are you doing with your life? Like, go watch Mamma Mia. It's excellent. It is excellent. The next time I travel comp here, though, because Mamma Mia. Is all about being, like, polite and funny. There's no murder. Plus, we. The. The. The whole plot is like, there are three men who could be her father, and one of them is her father. We have to figure out which one. The character here already knows who her father is. She just wants to get close to her.

A (6:05)

Okay. I thought this, like, travel missing dad piece. Okay, ignore me, everybody. Clearly my musical theater history. Musical theater history is not up to par. Okay, so not Mamma Mia. Ignore my note on that. So the other. Okay, so I got a couple. Couple question marks here, which is, you know, when I was reading this. So I. Obviously, I read this in person before I read this on the show. So I'm like, reading it multiple times when I was reading this to. To make notes, I totally forgot about the dead body until I got to the bottom of the query letter. When I was reading it this time, I was like, you know, in the flow. So it, like, came a little quicker in my mind, but I definitely was like, whoa, we need to make sure that this is way more clear what is happening with this dead body. Because at the top we have the classic whodunit, but we don't say murder. I mean, whodunit is generally to be known. Obviously we're looking for a crime and we're looking for something that happened, but I don't know if it's clear enough that this was a murder. And at the bottom it's like, oh, dead body. I'm like, okay, would have liked to have been reminded of that earlier. And the other thing that's a huge question mark for this query is where is this romance? So at the top it's, you know, a cozy romance. Wound through this, we talk about the mother relationship, we talk about her pulling herself together for this job on reality tv, and then we talk about a murder. So I have no idea where this love story is coming from. I don't know if that's on purpose or if it's just wasn't able to fit in the query letter. But if it can't fit in the query letter, then it's clearly not important to the book. So then why are we calling this a romance? So I got a lot of questions about that. So actually doesn't seem like a romance to me at all. So that's a huge question mark. Okay, and then the author bio paragraph we had. I had the pleasure of receiving a 10 page critique from Redacted. An editor at Redacted. Just a reminder. And I can't see this. So this person didn't like. I, I can't see it. It's because it's not like blacked out, it's just not in there. But if this isn't a Big 5 editor at a Big 5 imprint. Take this out. You're not going to want to keep this in unless it is a big five publisher, just so you know. And those are my notes.

B (8:05)

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.

C (8:09)

I, I don't know about the comp like the maid, just because I feel like that novel is so like, the protagonist's interiority is so quirky, so unique, it's so voicy in a very specific way. And at least for me and maybe other agents are different. When I see the maid as a comp, I'm going into the pages expecting that same level of quirkiness, obviously with a different voice, but with the same level of this is so unique. Like the voice is distinct and we've read the pages and they're really strong, but that voice isn't there. Like, it's just not that kind of book. I. I'm gathering right. It's not that kind of voicey, interiority driven book. And so not sure it's the best comp because it didn't put me in the state of mind that I felt like would most benefit the author if this were a query in my inbox. I definitely loved the idea of like a whodunit with the cozy mystery because just extra opportunities for tension. You have the love story. You know, we always say this in publishing. When you have a really strong love story in your story, people automatically will want to hear about it more. It'll move up the queue. There's a bigger chance that it'll sell in the foreign markets. Like, love stories help sell a book. They're so important. But there's no indication of the love story in the query letter to Carly's point. And I think that it's probably because the writer was like, my query letter is already 300 words. I can't fit it. But again, you have to find a way to fit it. And to be fair, there's a lot about your query letter that's really well written, but unnecessary. Like, we don't need the lines. The champagne is popped. The veneers are blinding. They're really great atmospheric lines that I appreciate. You write really well. But they're not actually adding plot points to the story. They're adding mood and mystery. And that mood and mystery should have been established, like, with one line from the get go, so you have space to cut and then add the love story. And I would especially like to see the love story, central conflict be enmeshed with the whodunits. Central conflict. You know, she's into this guy. I mean, I'm assuming guy. We don't know she's into this guy. But then he might be the killer or, or he might think she's the killer or something else.

B (10:17)

Right.

C (10:17)

Like, you really want those plot points to come together and to feel like they could not be separated no matter what because they're so organically tied. I will say this, though, it is a really fun motivation to make someone go on a reality TV show, like, trying to find her dad, who's the host. I haven't seen that. That's fresh, that's original. I can imagine myself pitching it in a way that's like, really, really fun. Yeah, I'd read this immediately if it were in my aquarium box, because I love a good reality TV show novel. I'm always like, this is Fun closed setting, forced proximity. You know, alcohol is flowing, tensions are rising. She has a goal that's hidden from everyone else. So I'm gonna be like, ooh, I really rooting for her. Anyway, super fun. Loved it.

B (10:59)

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, can you tell us what was in the opening pages?

A (11:04)

So we start with a prologue called after, which is a prologue. So it starts with our main character who has essentially found a dead body of some kind. You know, she's like, you know, should I run? Should I scream? You know, she's the only one around. We're by the ocean. She said, you know, she's kind of just running through what she should do, basically, in terms of, like, who's gonna find this body? You know, I'm all alone. What should I do? She thinks of her. Her mom do in that situation. She's worried that the interns would be the first person to find the body. So she's trying to work through some of that in her mind. And then she says a normal person would scream. So she's like, okay, I'm gonna scream. Screams and then that is the end of our prologue. Then we start with night one, week one. So rewind back to the beginning. Here we are welcomed, essentially, as it sounds on the first day of the show with the host, Adam Perez, who was kind of doing the opening scene, essentially where they are filming him, welcoming everybody, and they are kind of doing a couple takes of that. So we're kind of getting the behind the scenes of how the operation works. She wants to fix her makeup before the next scene. She asked somebody, and they're like, ah, I'm not qualified for that. And so she's like, okay, it's fine. And they assure her that her makeup is fine. And that is where we end.

B (12:20)

Thank you, Carly. I was chatting with Jenna Satterthwaite about her book, the New Year's Party, and we were talking about the genre and having a flash forward program to the dead body, especially if the murder comes quite late in the actual story. And we were discussing why hers worked so well. So, Carly, your take on this one and the rest of the pages.

A (12:43)

All right, so, I mean, in theory, I like an opening like this, right? It is really dramatic. I think one of the things that we talk about a lot of times or we think about when we're pitching, whether it's the author pitching the agent or the agent pitching an editor, when we think about we're pitching this book, it's fresh. You know, what is an editor going to come to this with or what's an agent going to come to this with in their mind? We think, like, everything has to be on the page. But, you know, books come with jacket copy, manuscripts come with pitch letters. So we. So we do have a bit of context here. Nobody's gonna essentially open this up and be like, what is this about? So I'm okay with this just being a dead body on the beach. I generally think it works. One of the issues that I had though, was we stayed a little bit too much with, like, thoughts about the mom. Like, I think we were just trying to ground this again in this, like, mother daughter story. I thought we maybe stayed with some thoughts about the mom too long. But I really liked when she said, you know, I'm wondering, why didn't I. Why didn't I scream? A normal person would have screamed by now. So they'll give them what I want. She screams and then she says, it's not for the body, not at all for them, for the noise, like, so much these past two weeks. It's for the performance. So I like that it kind of like grounded us in the concept of performance and reality tv. And in my opinion, the best reality TV show books are not necessarily satirizing, but they're like contextualizing reality TV within the larger culture. And so I liked that we leaned into this performance element of what was happening here. So I did like that. So my problem though, with the, with these opening pages is the following. We have a very dramatic prologue followed by incredibly bland opening pages. And I mean that in the sweetest way possible because clearly this person was trying to be like, ah, splash, dead body, ocean, da, da, da. Dramatic, you know, fire, not actual fireworks. But you know what I'm trying to say? Like in the author's mind, they're like, I'm going to make this a dramatic prologue. Then we get to opening pages, which are so predictable. It's just like day one. So it's like first day of school. You know, we always talk about how a first day of school chapter, first day of work chapter can be so hard because it's like all it is is just establishing things, right? Establishing what they're doing. This is the first day of the job. Here's. I don't know, I just found it so predictable. So in my mind, it's not that it has to be of equal, like dramatics or theatrics, it's that nothing surprising is happening in these opening pages. In my mind, instead of her being like, oh, I need to go check my Makeup. She should have broken a heel. And then she should have been like, oh, my shoe broke. What am I going to do now? Like, we need a problem. We have absolutely no problems in these opening pages, in my opinion. So I think she has to break a heel and then be like, what am I going to do? Instead of going to the intern, can I fix my teeth? And the intern's like, no, it's like. Like, we gotta fix this girl's shoe. They. So they're. Then they go into the underbelly of the situation, and there's like an upstairs, downstairs moment. Like, that's kind of what I was hoping for. Right away, we're gonna go deep into how the system works, as opposed to everything we already know about reality television. So that was my issue with these pages. It's not that it doesn't does or doesn't start in the right place. It's just the way that it was approached, I think. I don't know. It just took the air out of the tires for me personally.

B (15:51)

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, we know you like a good disruption, so what's your take on that?

C (15:57)

The prologue works really well, I find. I would suggest an edit to the first page. There's the line that reads, should I run? Should I scream, question mark? Should I check the body for a pulse? Question mark. And then there's more question marks. Is that really where my mind just went? Question mark, twice, question mark, and more. Fair or not? And I actually don't think it's fair at all, but it's reality. Excessive questions, especially in the very beginning, can give the impression of an underdeveloped protagonist. I think authors mean really well when they include that. They go, my character's running through options. You want your character to run through options, but don't make them explicit questions so early on. Have them really go through the options as statements as opposed to questions. It's a small tweak that makes a big difference. Remember, you are not competing against books in bookstores. You're competing against books in a slush pile. And we see a lot of underdeveloped work in the slush file. And so you don't want to give the impression that your book is underdeveloped when it's not. A lot of agents make snap decisions when reviewing pages, and that's just not, in my opinion, the best way to position your very first page. I think the prologue did a great job of establishing a mystery and of establishing the protagonist's relationship to Carly's point performance. To how people see her. Her intelligence, interiority was different from her actions. And she was alone. And that's like, amazingly hard to do. You have a protagonist who's alone and you managed to make her interiority have a contrast between her exteriority. Like, that was really impressive. So great job. The first chapter, my note reads, and again, substack supporters will be able to see this. I really enjoyed the prologue, but chapter one felt too tame for me. There wasn't a disruption. Her interiority really wasn't adding juicy layers and contrasts to her exteriority. And there was no surprise. I know this seems unfair because people might be thinking, but the prologue has the big surprise. The prologue is juicy. And guess what? When your prologue is juicy, that just means your chapter one has to be just as juicy, if not more. You don't get a pass because of the prologue. No, no. You just established your bar, and now your bar has to be met or surpassed. Fair? Unfair. Nothing about publishing is fair. So I don't even know what we're addressing that, you know, it's. It's just the reality. So it's. It's a problem, sure. But it's more than that. It's also her interiority. Revealing layers. The disruption in the first chapter, it has a very specific job. The job isn't just to catch the protagonist off guard. The job of the disruption is to then reveal layers of power dynamics. And that could be a further deepening of existing power dynamics in a way that reveals complications. Or it could be a power shift, meaning power goes from one person to another. The protagonist could lose power or gain power. That is very important, and that is the job of the disruption. Too many people add disruptions in pages going here. Disruption. It's a surprise. But there's no link to Power Dynamics. If there is no link to Power Dynamics, there will not be threat, There will not be temptation, there will not be tension, There will not be curiosity. It's just the reality of storytelling. So I urge this author to do in chapter one what she did in the prologue. Because stat in the prologue, she nailed it.

B (19:12)

Amazing. Cece, thank you so much. Okay, before we move to our next query letter, let's hear from our sponsors.

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B (22:35)

Okay right Cece, can you please kick us off with your query later?

C (22:40)

Let's do this. Dear Bianca, Cece and Carly, thank you so much for all you do for the community. It's a treat to listen to your show every week and I'm thrilled by the chance to get some feedback from you. Below is the query to my debut novel, coming in at 330 words after this paragraph. I hope you enjoy where the Cold Waters run is a 78,000 word literary horror debut exploring marital collapse and folklore. Set in an isolated Alaskan town, the narrative combines the emotional intimacy and slow disintegration of Julia Armfield's Our Wives under the Sea with the folkloric dread and isolation of Andrew Michael Hurley's the Lonely. It explores themes of marriage, isolation, decay and love. The novel's main focus is on the relationship between the two main characters, utilizing the supernatural horror elements as a pressure cook for their problems. Spencer has lived a very safe life. It's predictable, comfortable. Lately, however, that life seems to be slipping away and he can't identify why. His wife, Emmy, is withdrawing from him. His hobbies have lost their luster. It's not until Emmy suggests a trip to Alaska late in the year that he realizes he doesn't understand his wife. Not fully, he agrees, hoping to spark something between them that's long been missing. Soon the couple must decide whether to venture down to a strange, isolated town glimpsed from a mountaintop. Despite Spencer's initial hesitation, he acquiesces to Emmy's desires to go down. The town welcomes them with open arms, offering charming conversation and an inclusion Emmy hasn't found elsewhere. Spencer isn't fooled by the warm welcome, however. Something sinister is happening. He sees it in the growing storms at night, the empty tributary system, the fragments of poems spread throughout the village. His warnings to Emmy are met with opposition both from his wife and the inhabitants of a rapidly deteriorating society. Spencer must confront both the town's quiet menace and the widening chasm between him and Emmie before the night swallows them whole. I am a current education major at the University of Cincinnati with a focus in English. I live very happily with my wife and two sons. We recently moved from Alaska, and storytelling is at the heart of our family life. Thank you for your review, and I look forward to hearing from you.

B (25:09)

Awesome, Cece. Thank you so much. Okay, what was your take on that?

C (25:13)

Okay, so let's. Let's go from the top. The first paragraph, which is where we like to see all the metadata. You do have title and genre and word count and comps. I do think, however, that you are leading with themes. This is very theme forward. We hear that this is an exploration of marriage twice. We hear about the isolation twice. And like, I think query letters should be hook forward, not theme forward. And I love that you know this. I always say this because it's true. I love it when writers have almost psychoanalyzed their own themes and their own work to, you know, draw out the themes. I think it's brilliant. I just don't think you should lead with it. So I would remove the highlighted portion so stack subscribers will be able to see it. But it's essentially the second half of the first paragraph. It's utilizing too many words and you will need words for my next notes. The first plot paragraph, it's a lot of words to identify the protagonist's place in the world. I like to see query letters. The first line of the plot paragraph should establish the protagonist's place in the world, which is essentially the status quo. And the next line should have the disruption, usually the inciting incident that will show to the reader of the query letter why the destruction is such a big deal, because it contrasts with the status quo. And it's an entire paragraph on the status quo. And there's a lot of unnecessary detail. So I would tighten it. Here's an example of what it could when Spencer's wife Emmy suggests a trip to Alaska. He is surprised, but ultimately agrees in the hopes it'll spark something between them that's been missing. Missing. Sure, it's missing things like his life is predictable and he realizes he doesn't know his wife. But these are not details you need in a query letter. Like, you have to get to the story. So I think one line as opposed to multiple lines. This writer is falling into the trap of, I'm a very voicy writer, so I'm going to make my query letter voicey, too. I appreciate a voicey query letter, but you're essentially using up too many words to convey what is a pitch. Okay, so next paragraph after that, I felt confused because we spent a whole paragraph talking about the status quo of their marriage. And then the next line is, they must decide to venture down to a town and, like, venture down from where? And then pretty soon, the next clause told me, from a mountaintop, but all of a sudden, they're on a mountaintop. Like, this went from very zoomed out to very zoomed in without any sense of control in the movement. I felt. It felt jarring to me. I had to go back and be like, wait, did I miss something? And I hadn't missed anything. So that, to me, I was like, venture down from where? I'm so confused. You know, it went from macro to micro really quick. Like, they randomly climbed a mountaintop. I just didn't understand. And then when the line. The line that read, the town welcomes them with open arms, and I'm like, the entire town welcomes them. That's so weird. I feel like that's the goal. The goal is for it to be weird because there's something weird about this town. But it just happened way too fast. Like, the plot points didn't. They weren't building off each other. They felt like they were isolated plot points. And then, okay, when it comes to the. The menace, right, like, the fact that the town is scary and Spencer can. Can tell that it's scary, but his wife can't. Horror works really well when we fear for and fear with the protagonist. That's the point of horror. We want to feel fear. Why? Because ultimately we want to be brave, you know, and so that's the second part of a horror story. I need to understand why someone is willing to be brave and face this fear. Like, for what? You know, what is the reason why the bravery is merited. And I need to relate to that. I need to be like, yes, I would be brave too, in this protagonist's shoes. His motivation is here to protect his wife. I can absolutely get behind that. But what is the threat? The threat right now is too vague. The night swallows them whole. What does that mean? The inhabits of a rapidly deteriorating society. What, like, are they zombies? Are they actually deteriorating? Like, their faces? Warnings to Emmy. Warnings about what? Like their poems spread throughout the village. I was just deeply confused. When I see vagueness in a query letter, my instinct tells me the writer doesn't want to get too specific about the plot points because they don't want spoilers. But remember, everything up to the climax is fair game. You know, like, I'm talking about the midpoint climax specifically. Like, you get to share plot points. You get to share specifics on the fear factor. Because if you don't, I'm like, I get that he's being brave, but brave against what? What's the threat? You know, beyond the general. The town is threatening, sure, but what does that look like? So I think this needs revising because right now especially your genre is very hot. So yay. Assuming this is ready to be queried, of course. But again, you need your query letter to really convey a specific fear. Or it's going to just be like, okay, well, what's special about this scary town? And I don't know what that is.

B (30:17)

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you now.

A (30:21)

I'm going to build on what CC said, and then I'll run through my notes, which is like, this whole thing about people not wanting to, like, get at the juiciness of their story. It's because. And I'm trying to figure out a nice way to say this, but, like, everybody querying has this main character energy, right? Where they're just like, my story is great, and this pitch is great, and this agent is going to focus on and I am the main character of my own journey. And then they think, well, the agent is going to read this, and then they're going to read the sample, and then they're going to request it. And it exists within this ecosystem of them being the main character. But again, when agents request things, I'm reading this, hitting the favorite button in my emails, sending it off to my assistant to go request it. Then the manuscript comes back, then I have to jog my memory, and then two weeks later, I'm reading it in my E reader. Like, the amount of disconnect between reading the query letter, to reading the sample, to reading the partial, to reading a full, to putting it down to take my kids to hockey, to Picking it back up. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, that amount of time is so expansive that this idea of I can't tell you what's happening in my book in my query letter, because it's too important that you don't know it in this moment is so disconnected from the reality of, like, how we read query letters. And so nobody's doing themselves justice by holding back the juiciness. You have to tell us what's happening in your book because if you don't, then we won't request it. So, like, you know, it's just. It's one of those things that I'm like, ah, you know, I just wish that more writers understood that lengthy, drawn out process, because that's the reality in which you are querying. Okay, back to my actual notes here. So pretty much, you know, echoing everything cece said. So I don't need to kind of run through every exact thing, but I did write a hook for you. I don't know if you realize, but you didn't actually write a hook. All you did was talk about themes. You talked about the feelings about the themes, and that was pretty much it. So. And the problem with me trying to write a hook for you is that you don't give me enough information to actually write you a really great hook. So you need to rewrite this hook. But something to the effect of Spencer only agreed to his wife Emmy's impulsive trip to Alaska to save their failing marriage. But he soon realizes that the two charming, isolated town they discover is a trap, forcing him to decide if he's fighting to save his wife or fighting to save himself from her, from the world, from this. Whatever the sinister thing is. Right. That's what you need to pack in, because I don't actually know what is sinister about this town. I get the idea that, again, maybe these people are not who, you know, there's something up with these people against zombies. Is it climate change? Like, what is it? Once you can tell us what the sinister element of the story is, that's how you have to kind of build this in, right? Like, why are they on this trip? What's the conflict of this trip and what's coming after them? That's basically what we want to know. And I've made notes about, like, what to cut, you know, what's actually important. And I think my ultimate struggle with this query letter is that there is so much ambivalence in this query letter. It's like, I don't know how I feel about my marriage. I don't know how I feel about this town.

C (33:19)

Like, cool.

A (33:20)

Well, you know, the. The reader needs to understand what's going on. I don't. We need to focus on the plot itself, not the character's feelings about the plot in the situations that they're in. And I think that's what is happening here. I think at the end of the day, my biggest question is, what is actually the sinister element here? But it's really interesting. The reason I'm, like, so frustrated and I'm like, da, clearly there's something happening here in this town. I want to know what's happening in this town. Please tell me so that I can read it and be interested in this town. Because I want to be. So that's where my frustration lies. And Cece's laughing at me off camera here, but I am frustrated, and I wish that we had this author on the show with us. And that is where I'll end.

C (34:01)

I love frustrated Carly. No, I love frustrated Carly. It's the best Carly. It doesn't happen very often, and when she's frustrated, she's hilarious.

B (34:11)

This is why you guys should watch on YouTube as well, because then you get to see the expressions and cc, like, really.

A (34:19)

Emotions. I'm a huge hand talker, and I'm, like, surprised I don't whack my mic over more often. It's a lot of this.

B (34:26)

Brilliant. Love it. Okay, so, Cece, let's go to the actual pages. What's in them? What's your take on them?

C (34:34)

They have to stop laughing because this is horror. Not comedies, horror. Okay, okay, get it together. It's easy. So here's what happens in these pages. It's a chapter one. It's called Hiking the Chapter. The protagonist is watching his wife walk ahead of them on a hike, and he asks, can we stop? And she clearly doesn't want to stop. And she's surprised. Are you tired already? And he nods. He's been tired throughout this whole hike. And she's like, well, we have to go because we need to reach the top to watch the sunset. We don't have a lot of time. And then he asks to see the map because he doesn't trust her with maps. And he realizes that actually they're not going to make it at all because they spent too much time in the parking lot. And she's like, well, you shouldn't blame me. And he's like, I'm not blaming you, but, you know, we're just not going to make it. Like, there's there's no way we're going to make it. And she says, well, we could make it if we camped here.

A (35:28)

So they're like, okay.

C (35:30)

And instead of. He's about to reject the idea when he's like, okay, maybe. So then he looks around, and that's where we. We stop.

B (35:37)

Okay, great. Well, it sounds like we've got quite a bit of conflict there, but is it working? What's your take on that?

C (35:43)

No, there's no conflict. This. This whole conflict thing, like. Like, listen, maybe it's because I've been married for 14 years, but this whole. Give me the map. Like, this is not conflict. This is just like a Tuesday. Not that I would ever be reading a map, because I cannot read maps, but. Okay, from the top.

A (35:58)

I was gonna say, you're also like, when is Cece gonna be on a mountain looking for a map here? But, you know, I understand you can relate to the marriage element.

C (36:05)

Which one is less likely, the mountain or the map? Probably the mountain is even. I don't know, because I'm not gonna do either of these things. Carly navigates for me.

B (36:14)

As soon as the chapter heading was hiking, Cece was like, oh, my God, this is horror.

C (36:19)

Yes, this is horror. Exactly. Exactly. At least there's no, like, sports with balls flying around, because that's scarier. But anyway. Okay, I'm gonna start with a micro comment, and then I'll go to the macro, and the micro comment's gonna get me in trouble, but I have to say it. I debated saying this or not. I know it's gonna get me in trouble. I know I'm gonna get DMs saying, how could you say this? I'm saying it. Line one, first page. Emmy was beautiful. Not beautiful in the traditional sense. There was something about her face. We get a long paragraph about her. Her appearance. Page two. Emmy smiles were something to behold. She may not be beautiful in a traditional sense, but I was always drawn by her smiles. And then more on her face. I assume this is intentional, but you need to know how this makes me feel. It's just me. Just one person, you know, Just one person. You are a man. I assume, based on your name and just general context, you are writing from a male perspective. Right? This man won't stop talking about how his wife isn't traditionally beautiful. Like, twice in two pages. Is this really the look you want to go with? Maybe it is. You know, I don't think it should be, truly. Like, it's fair or not. I just. Whenever a male character is describing a female character, especially when the author is a man. I don't want to hear that her beauty isn't traditional. Twice. Like, once, fine, but twice. Like, is this really what you want to highlight in your story? I have to admit, it makes me go, ugh, I hate this character. Like, shut up about your wife's non traditional beauty. Go look in the mirror. Go talk about your own beauty. You know, I don't want to hear it. I do not want to hear it. And yes, I am projecting my own stuff. Of course I'm projecting my own stuff. But guess what? All of life is projection. That is what every human being does all day long. So I don't like it. I don't think you should be highlighting it once per page in the first two pages. And again, maybe you're listening to this and going, I want you to hate this guy. I want you to be frustrated with him. Okay, fair. Could we be frustrated about something else as well? So that. That is really intentional. I feel like if the frustration is intentional, you have to really dial it up, you know, Right now it's just this lukewarm thing where it's kind of annoying, but not totally annoying. And I don't know how intentional it is. Still on his feelings about his wife, he asks to see the map. And then he thinks to himself, I'm not good at maps, and I didn't read this map ahead of time. Like, he's not prepared. Why does he want to see the map then? Is this a traditional guy who's like, I can read maps and my dumb wife can't? Is this what's happening? Because I'm not getting that vibe in terms of the author's intentionality, but I'm getting that behavior from the character, and I just. I just don't get it. Like it to me, it totally threw me off. And I tried to read this again, being like, accept that this is a part of the story that's bothering you, but try to look for other things. So now I'm going to talk about other things. The scene is. The scene work is very strong. Like, I knew exactly what was happening at every time. But when I hear literary fiction, and this author is promising me literary fiction, I imagine lots of depths, lots of interiority, and lots of psychological acuity. And I didn't get that here. I got a lot of him tracking her movements, tracking her face, tracking her expressions, tracking her body language, which, by the way, keep. Keep all this. I love it when a protagonist is observing someone else and tracking their Reactions, because you can get the pinball effect right. But there was no depth after that. In literary fiction especially, we really need that depth right away. Because that depth is what makes literary fiction so special, that level of psychological acuity. And maybe the listeners are thinking, well, what do you mean by depth? So when he picks up the map and when he's annoyed at her for, you know, having waited too long in the parking lot, and when he's trying to show effort to not be so tired, what does this reveal about their larger dynamics? Like what about their relationship can you reveal? Can you pause and zoom out and reveal through what's happening in scene? Has he always tried to keep up with her and always felt like he wasn't enough and feels largely inadequate? Is this a recent revelation? Ever since what happened last year, and what happened last year is going to be a curiosity because I'm going to be like, ooh, something happened last year. And ever since then he's been feeling inadequate. Or maybe it's a situation where she used to admire me. How can I possibly get that back? You know, ever since what happened with Christopher. Who's Christopher? Is Christopher. I don't know, someone she had an affair with. Is Christopher his brother? I just don't know what. Again, I wanted curiosity seeds and I wanted depth and interiority and. And there really was none of that. There was a lot of interiority very well written in terms of what was happening in scene and keep that, but also zoom out and give me socio emotional framework which is essential for psychological acuity. I also think that the disruption you have right now, which is them realizing they're not going to make it in time, feels really tame. So for literary fiction that's fine. You can have a really tame disruption as long as again, the interiority is doing the heavy lifting of revealing these layers of power dynamics and relationship driven conflicts and things that happened in the past that are going to show up in the present so that we can then have theories about what might happen in the future. So it's really about genre here. And in literary fiction you need so much more depth to be able to keep the reader hooked. Either that or you have to choose a different place to start. That's my two cents.

B (41:58)

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.

A (42:03)

All right, all great notes from cece. Like usual, I'm going to start with my global note and then move into my individual notes. So I think I have diagnosed what I think the major problem is with this sample, which is what I call blank page Syndrome, meaning I actually don't believe that these characters existed before this moment. I can't conceptualize what their marriage looks like at home. I can't conceptualize how long they've been married, what their previous fights were about. You know, just all these little details. And he's so obsessed with her face, as cece mentioned, which was, like, so irritating, like cece said, because if you're married to somebody for a long time, their face is just their face. Like, you know, obviously you love them and know them, and, you know, you. You can contextualize it as you grown together. Like, I just feel like these guys are newlyweds, and so I'm like, what are these guys fighting about if they're newly married and they don't have the depth of backstory together in this, like, richness of shared history? I guess that's what I was really missing, was, like, a shared history. Have they hiked before? Why would they go to Alaska to go on a hike if it's like, oh, she always navigates when we hike, so then why would I look at the map? Because every time we've done, you know, when we were in Yellowstone, she did this. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just. Just do not believe that these characters lived before this moment. And that is what I'm really, really struggling with. So that, to me, that's the. The core problem here. One of the things I think that could really help these pages is, again, peppering in these little, like, last time this happened this. Or the last time we had this fight, blank last time we hiked xyz. But what I was really hoping for, and again, kind of going back to my earlier frustration with not knowing what was going on with the sinister elements, is this whole sun going down thing, is that because maybe they had planned out that they could have gotten there by the time that the sun was gonna set normally, but because of this whole, like, sinister town in this town, there's something going on here. Oh, it's kind of weird. Like, we had planned out that, you know, we could make it 4 miles in XYZ amount of time. But why is the sun setting faster? And if that's, like, completely not aligned with your story, I understand, but that's what I was hoping for. I was hoping that there was a major disruption in the story that was related to one of the sinister elements. And so that's how they're going to end up in this town, because they have to go into the town because the sunset early or something like that. So that's kind of what I was hoping for, because I think what it comes off to me is that these two people haven't been married very long. So what are they fighting about? They're inexperienced hikers who don't actually know how to plan for this situation. Because I just don't really feel like we're getting into the actual drama of the marriage as CeCe was talking about, about, like, throwing a Christopher or the hiking or the drama of a hiking trip where it's like somebody rolls an ankle and that's why they're slow and they're not going to make it. And then there's no compassion between the marriage of why did he have to go freaking roll his ankle when he knew we were trying to get up this freaking hill? You know, pick a better time to roll your ankle. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of what I was hoping for from the, like, deeper marriage elements kind of coming through. And I just didn't really feel like we got there. It's not that we can't get there, it's just that I didn't really see it in this draft.

B (45:16)

And for those not watching on YouTube, Carly was waving her hands again. She was getting very worked up again. Right. Thank you so much to Carly and CeCe for the last Books With Hooks critique of this year. We will be back on New Year's Day with two author interviews, and we look forward to kicking off the year with you then. All right, thanks, everyone. Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available, which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website, the shitaboutwriting to find out more.