← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
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- [00:00]
A
Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last deep dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literal. Hi everyone, welcome to today's author interview. Today's guest is the New York Times best selling author of Murder Road, the Book of Cold Cases, the Sundown Motel and the Broken girls. She spent 20 years behind the scenes in the television business before leaving to write full time. It's my pleasure to welcome Simone St. James. Simone, welcome to the show.
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B
Hi. Thank you for having me.
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A
Thank you so much for joining us. I tried to get you on the show for the Sundown Motel and wasn't able to manage to arrange that one. So I was very, very happy to get you for this one. For those of you watching on the YouTube channel, I'm holding up the book. It's called A Box Full of Darkness. It is a very striking creepy cover. Absolutely love it. I'm going to read you the flap copy just to set the stage and then we're going to dive in. So strange things happen in Fell, New York. A mysterious drowning at the town's roadside motel. The unexplained death of a young girl whose body is left by the railroad tracks. For the Esme siblings, Violet, Vale and Dodie, the final straw was the shocking disappearance of their little brother. It started as a normal game of hide and seek. The three closed their eyes and counted to 10 while Ben went to hide. But this time they never found their brother. He was gone and the ongoing search efforts turned up no clues. As their parents grew increasingly distant, Violet, Vale and Dodie were each haunted by visions and frightening events that made them leave town and never look back. Violet still sees dead people, spirits who remind her of Sister, the menacing presence that terrorized her for years and now, after two decades running from their past, it's still time for a homecoming. Because Ben is back and he's ready to lead them to the answers they've longed for and long feared. If the ghosts are fell, don't get them first. Right?
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B
So.
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A
Dun, dun, dun. So much to love there. Okay, so one thing I was not expecting. A return to the town of Fel again. After the Sundown Motel. I devoured that book. I absolutely loved it. Can you tell us a bit about.
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B
The choice there to go return to Fel? It really just came down to. I had the story idea first. I had the idea of some kids playing hide and seek. One of the kids hides, never comes out. And so it's kind of a. Kind of a locked door mystery. Because then I added in that it was snowing that day, so there was no tracks and no tire tracks outside the house. There's a vanishing inside this house. And I didn't know what the answer to the mystery was. It was just sort of the germ of an idea. And I pondered it for a while, and I thought at one point I was pondering it and I thought, God, you know, those other kids who were playing hide and seek, I mean, they would just. They would just be traumatized for life. And then it was like, oh, that's the story. Like, that's the key of the story. And I built around that. And then once I had built around this mystery and these characters and these kids and how these kids had grown up, and I had all this stuff in my head, and I thought, well, where is this set? And I thought, well, this is a creepy thing that happened. And it just kind of clicked one day. I was like, well, I. I wrote a creepy town in. In Sundown Motel. And at the time, I didn't know, but a lot of readers really responded to that. That town. They really liked it. They really liked that idea. And so I was like, well, why don't. Why don't I. I mean, this story is creepy, and it's about a family and a house as a w. I mean, it just makes sense that it would happen in this town. And from there, everything just sort of snowballed. Everything just sort of made sense after that. There's. There's like all these puzzle pieces coming into place where I was like, oh, this is definitely the town where they grew up. And it just sort of added another layer to the story that I already had cooking. Yeah.
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A
And it's wonderful for people who loved that book who suddenly are like, oh, we're back. Yeah, we thought we were done with it and now we recognize these, these incidences.
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B
Right. But it's important to also note that you don't have to have read that book. This is not a sequel. Yes, there's just sort of little Easter eggs about that book if you've read that book. But if you haven't read that book, this is, I mean this is completely, there's, there's nothing plot wise that comes over from that book into this one.
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C
Not at all.
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A
But if you haven't read that book and you read this one, you are going to, I promise you going to want and read that one, even though you don't need to. Just the illusions to the hotel are creepy enough that you're like, oh my God, I have to know. So did that also inform the setting, Simone, in terms of timeline? Because what I'm always saying on the podcast is that we need intentionality. Like if a story takes place in the 70s, why? If it takes place in modern day, why? And so the setting here is that in the Sundown Motel, we had one storyline in the past sitting 1982 and then we had a present day one. And in a box full of darkness we have the present day timeline as 1989. But there's a lot that happened in the past. So was it that you were always going to base it sort of in the 80s or was it once you decided fel that you were like, okay, that's why I'm setting at that time?
- [06:04]
B
Oh, that's a good question. I do think Fel came first. The decision to put it in Fell came first. I was playing around with different era with for this story. And then the idea of Fell came first. And then I thought, well, if I set it in Fell, I wanted it to be after, like kind of between those two timelines, which is where it ended up. But I wanted it to be because. Because without any spoilers, but the Sundown Motel covers a lot of murders that have happened up to the point of the 1982 timeline. And I wanted this setting to be after all of those murders had happened and after the first timeline of the Sundown had happened. And then I did want to set another book sort of in the 80s, but I wanted it to be later in the 80s because Murder Road was set in the 90s. And I'm really enjoying that time era. Of course, I'm old enough to remember it, but also I'm really enjoying writing in that era because I get to forget about the Internet and cell phones when I'm telling a story, especially when I'm telling a mystery, when I'm telling suspense. And there are plenty of contemporary suspense writers who do an absolutely incredible job of it. But personally, I like to. I don't want to write about people Googling things and looking things up and texting. And that's just me. And there are plenty of writers who do an incredible job. But I really like going just back far enough into the past that people are on the phone or you've got to get in your car and go talk to somebody to ask some questions. And they're looking up old newspapers. And to me, that's fun. Like, that's fun part of the story. So it all kind of came together where I did want to set it in the past, and I also wanted to put it in foul. And I also wanted to put it in between the two timelines of the Sundown Motel.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it worked brilliantly. I did think that it was a story that could have been contemporary because they weren't like the misunderstandings, you know, like with my last book, I put it on a remote island and there's no electricity and there's no cell phones. Oh, that's specifically because I didn't want. It was modern day, but I didn't want people to be able to Google things and reach out to people for help, etc. And this book, like, could have worked I perfectly in a contemporary way. But in terms of the setting, it really makes sense. And I love those little nostalgic things because I think you mentioned somebody typing in Word Perfect and I was like, oh my God, that's what it used to be called. I forgot that's what it used to be called. So there's all these little, you know, things that, that do make you nostalgic for that era. Yeah.
- [08:27]
B
And it was also had to do with the fact that, you know, this mystery of their little brother disappearing happened in their childhood. So I don't have chapters that are written their childhood timeline. Everything is written in the one timeline in 1989, but they are recalling things or trying to figure out things that happened 20 years ago. And so I also had to be conscious of like, okay, so when was their childhood? Because this, there's not only when this story is set, but when the mystery they're trying to solve happened 20 years ago. And I wanted to be comfortable with both of those because their parents and their childhood come into it and it's like, well, that was in the 60s, so you're going to, you See very clearly that that was kind of like a different sort of era. And so that has also has to do with kind of a generational thing as well. But, yeah, I think the idea of, yeah, fell came first. 1989 as a setting did not come first. Fell came first. Yeah, yeah.
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A
And also, like, the parenting style, you know, of the 60s is so different to, like, if you had a contemporary story, you know, you. You were pretty much raised by wolves. I feel like our generation was raised by wolves. Our parents didn't know where the hell we were. Whereas, you know, if it was more recent, there'd be much more helicopter parenting and parents would be seeking therapy after their child had passed, which means they would be handling it much better than what they did, et cetera, as well.
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B
Yeah. And that all plays into the story because these characters have had this specific childhood where this traumatic event happened, and they received absolutely no help with it. And so that was a bit more believable in a past timeline. Of course. I mean, that still happens, but it's more believable to the reader in a past timeline.
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A
Yeah, yeah. So for our listeners, again, when we're always saying there must be intentionality, this discussion has really brought to the forefront what kind of intentionality was applied in terms of choosing the setting, choosing the timelines, et cetera. Is there a reason, Simone, why you didn't want to do the multi timeline like you did in Sundown Motel, where you didn't want to show their childhoods and then the modern day, whereas you rather just stayed in the modern day and then had sort of flashbacks and conversations to the past?
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B
One of the themes of the book is memories and our memories of our own pasts and our own childhood. And these are three siblings. And, you know, they all remember things, but do they remember everything exactly the same? And so if I put an actual chapters in their past timeline, it would be like telling the reader here's definitively what happened. And I wanted everything to be seen through the lens of these people looking back and going, did that happen? Like, do you remember that? I remember that. Like, why. Why did what was happening? Like, why did we not, you know, why do you remember this? I don't. So I really wanted it to be through that lens. And so a dual timeline, and of course you can always do unreliable narrator on either timeline, but a dual timeline, if I put a timeline back in that childhood, you're kind of giving the message to the reader. I'm giving you the answer, like, here's what really happened. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted everything to be seen through the lens of these people who are trying to figure out what happened. And so the reader is along for the ride for that, psychologically.
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A
Yeah, love that. So again, that intentionality comes in. It's not just, oh, I'm, you know, this is just kind of the way I'm going. So I know that you said for Sundown Motel you did a lot of listening to podcasts, like true crime podcasts, to figure out how people solve crimes and the process. This book touches on UFOs and people who believe in UFOs and people who, you know, study that kind of thing. So again, was it back to podcasts and research on that to be able to integrate that?
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B
Yeah, I did a bunch. I did some research on that. And I mean, there's a lot. I mean, if you want to look up like, you want to look up like people who believe UFO conspiracies, man, you can find that. But I wanted it to be. I didn't want to treat it like a joke. The character Vale, who has this so called career is not really a paid career, but the so called career looking up, you know, looking into investigating UFOs, you know, he has his reasons for doing that, and I wanted to have a little compassion with that. Where some people do this because they are trying to solve. They're trying to answer their own questions and they think that this might be the way to do it. And they. Some of their questions are deep and kind of painful and they're trying to look for answers wherever they can find them. And so I did do some research, but I also wanted to take it seriously in the sense of why is this character fixated on this idea? Where does this come from and what is it doing for him? And is it actually solving his problems and is it answering his questions and how is he going to come around to assessing that? And so I wanted it to really reflect a deeper sort of psychological idea and it just, it just made a lot of sense. And yeah, I didn't have to do as much research for this one because we are so clearly in the POV of these three characters who are not police. So you don't have to. I don't have to get into police procedural. There's not really even a lot of police in the book. And so I got to really focus on these three characters and where they are in their minds and where they are in their process and their relationship with each other. And of course, I mean, the 1989 stuff I had to kind of look up, like, you know, I do remember 1989, but specifically what technology was around and what movies were coming out and what songs were popular and stuff like that, like, at that in that year or what, you know, I would be like, oh, I want to use something. I'd be like, was that around yet? I'd have to look it up. But other than that, I mean, I got to really focus in on these characters and be almost a little claustrophobic with these three characters and their experience.
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A
Yeah, the claustrophobia was so important. You. You took us so close into those POVs that it did feel claustrophobic. And then there was claustrophobia of the home and their relationships, their sibling dynamics, etc, so all. All brilliant. There were parts of it that I. I won't say it triggered me, but it brought back things from my own childhood. So I also experienced people standing next to my bed and staring at me and I couldn't move, etc. Etc. And I think my parents did get in an ex, and they got in Sangoma in South Africa, which is, you know, like a witch doctor to. To try and get all these spirits out of me, and many years later realized it was, you know, sleep paralysis. So a lot of this, I was going, oh, my God, I've been there, man. I know it. I know what they feel like.
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C
But the.
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A
The braided narratives were so well done. So on the podcast, we talk all the time about planting curiosity seeds. You plant something that the reader's like, interesting. Why is this character experiencing this but the other one isn't? And why is this one experiencing this? And then we finally get to that aha moment where we understand why each one is experiencing something different. And so it feels like a very satisfying payoff, you know, as opposed to these things being over explained up front. So, again, like, for our listeners, how do you exercise that kind of control in terms of knowing how much will make the reader curious but not frustrated and how long you can make them wait before you give them the payoff?
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B
Well, the. The curiosity seeds, they come. They are. They are. Me as the writer, I call them story questions. But I, in order to write a book, I have story questions that when I am starting out, I have not answered those story questions. And so when there's a scene in a. In a storage unit and someone encounters a ghost, and the ghost says, sister sent me, and you're like, who is. What does that mean? When I wrote that chapter, I didn't fully know what that meant. Like, I had A vague idea. So for me, the story questions make sense because they're questions that I want to answer as going through the story. Now, of course, I work ahead and I. But I'm not a big outliner. I have very vague story points in my mind and I have very vague. Sort of. I'm sort of heading toward this type of climax, and I think it's going to go here. So it's not like I'm totally panting it, but I have some vague ideas, but I want to know the answers. And so those. That's where the questions come from. Those are mine now, as far as how long it takes to satisfy them, I do my best to figure that out as I'm writing. But whatever I don't get right, I will revise until it is right. So I will either go through the book before I turn it into my editor and go, I don't think this works and fix it myself, or I will turn it into my editor and my editor will say, hey, you know, you could draw this out longer or that, you know, you could make. You could draw out all the suspense, like a couple more chapters. And then I go back. So my books get revised a lot between myself and my editor. That's one of the things I love, I like to emphasize whenever I'm doing an interview that's talking to writers, inspiring writers, is that you are never reading my first draft. Not even close. My first draft is bad. I write bad first drafts. So you as a writer have my permission to write terrible first drafts. And they require a lot of revision. Revision for most of us is not fun. It's kind of a crappy, boring task of the job. And it's the only way to make your book better because it's not perfect when it comes out. So I do my best when I'm drafting, and then whatever doesn't work, I revise until I think it works. And then my editor gets it and she tells me what. What else I need to revise. And then I do it again. And that's how kind of we do it in the end is I don't get it right the first time every time.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I know for our listeners you're going to go, but I don't have an editor. But remember, you have beta readers. You have other people who can comment on pacing and who can go, you know, I felt this could have been drawn out more, etc. So all of this to say is how important it is, even though writing is solitary, is to make it collaborative. Find People you trust, whose feedback you trust. Because I think that's really, really important.
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B
That is important. And you know, you also, you have your gut. I mean, you know, you just don't want to revise it. Like, you'll write a chapter and you'll be like, oh, that's good. Part of your brain is going, that's good enough. Move on, move on. I want to get to the end, I want to get to the end. I want to finish this. I'm thinking about submitting it. I'm thinking about whether I'm self publishing it. I'm thinking about all these other things like, move, move, move. And like, you don't really want to go back and rewrite that chapter. But there is, there's often a little part of your brain that's going, that could be better if I spend a little more time, a couple more days. This book would be better if I went through it again and spent a couple more weeks going through it again chapter by chapter. I mean, you know that, you know that if you're a writer, you know that, yeah, you're not going to catch everything and make it perfect. But you know, you know that there are certain parts in your work in progress that you could fix.
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A
And I know that when I submit work to my, my writing group and there's a part that I'm not really happy with, I'll be like, oh, hopefully they won't notice. And every time they zone in on the thing that I was most insecure about. So, you know, it's like you go, they won't notice. But like, again, trusting your gut, if you feel insecure about it and you feel it's not working, other people are going to pick up on it as well.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And something that you said also resonated with me is I used to love drafting. Drafting used to be my favorite part of the whole process. I used to hate revising, used to hate editing, and now I've gone the complete opposite way. I find drafting excruciating. And once it's on the page, then I feel like I'm in my playground and then I'm just polishing everything up. And now I love that process. So for any of our listeners who find one or the other difficult, it is possible to, to change your outlook on it.
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B
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah.
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A
Okay. So something else I want to discuss is writing characters who are come across as sort of cynical and jaded, and you know that they've got wounds, you know that they have had things in their past. That are kind of cut them off from other people, but you can't help but love them and cheer them on. And they're so funny as well. So, I mean, this is like. Okay, before I even go into this. What genre would you call this? Because to me it's not horror. What genre do you consider it?
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B
Yeah, I don't strictly consider it horror, psychological horror.
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A
I don't know. Is there a. Yeah.
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B
Or like supernatural suspense is. I think maybe one of the things that my publisher uses. It's got a bit more suspense than horror. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely a genre blend. I don't write pure horror. I don't think. I think a horror writer would agree with me on that. It's kind of just my own genre. It's got a lot of gothic in it. It's got. It's got a bunch of flavors.
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A
Trying to figure out the. The genre, but I mean, as well, to have these characters who are so funny. I mean, there was one scene that was so tense, I was busy biting my nails. And then they've got this, you know, witty banter in between. And then I'm killing myself laughing, but I'm still biting my nails. So how do you approach that? How do you get that balance?
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B
I'm glad you found it funny because I personally find the Esmes very funny. I think they're funny.
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A
I think they're hilarious.
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B
I was like, I don't know whether this is going to translate or everyone's going to think these people are obnoxious, but I mean, I think they're funny. Yeah, that was just part of it is the, the subject matter, you know, when you're talking about a child disappearing. The subject matter of this book is so dark. And so part of it is I want to alleviate some of that darkness both for myself as the writer, because I got to get through it and for the reader. I don't want it to be. I don't want any of my books to be just an unrelentingly dark experience. There are writers who do that and they do incredible job at it. But that is not what I'm after. That is not the experience I'm after. I always am trying to alleviate some of that darkness with a little bit of wit or a little bit of humor or I ease up instead of. I don't do back to. Back to back dark scenes. I ease up, I do some lighter scenes. And so that's. That's intentional for me because I. I believe that for me as the writer and for the reader, it's a little bit of a breather. And so for this, though, I mean, this book, so clearly, like the clear central relationship is the sibling relationship. There are other relationships in the book, but the, the real love story and the real main thrust of the relationship's story is the sibling relationship. It's these three siblings coming back together and rediscovering each other and figuring out whether you know, who these people, who your siblings are and. And, you know, sibling. Siblings can be kind of. They can be bit biting and they can be. They can be a little relentless and they can be a little pitiless and that I lean into that. And it was very fun to write that dynamic. And they're facing something awful. And they're, they're one of their only tools for the three of them to face this awful thing is some dark humor. And so that's what they use. It's one of the only tools they've been given and that they've, that they've sharpened over the years. And so I just also wanted to show them using their only tool to kind of get through this.
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A
Yeah, but they also have this vulnerability which immediately makes you feel protective of them. So no matter how acerbic or perhaps sometimes obnoxious they might be, you understand that this is a protective mechanism.
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B
Yeah, I do make it pretty clear that they're. They're really like, they're doing. They're doing and saying a lot of these things because. Because their situation they're in is so stressful and so hard and so bad. And, you know, they're just, they're just trying their best to get through it. And so they're gonna insult their siblings. Part of it.
- [24:09]
A
Yeah. No, it was. I. I really loved the family. Before my last question, this is an example for our listeners of two inciting incidents. One that happens in the past because obviously the day that their brother goes missing is the true inciting incident. That is the domino that gets all the other dominoes tipping forward. But because this book is being written in like, sort of present day 1989, we need another inciting incident to explain why today, why now, why the story kicks off. And Simone, just like, take us through that particular inciting incident as well, because you can't just have an inciting incident that happened 10 or 20 years ago and then you don't explain why the story is starting now when it does.
- [24:58]
B
When I was going to actually dive into the writing, I always knew that I was going to be starting with 1989. I was going to be starting with this, like you said, as you say, the second inciting incident. And it just kind of played into, you know, this. This happened 20 years ago. Their brother disappeared inside the house. And so I knew that they were going to go back to the house. And they've kept this house for 20 years because they can't sell it because their brother is in there somewhere, and they can't, you know, tear it down because their brother is in there somewhere and they're not going to live there. So they've had this house just sitting empty, and they don't really know what to do with it. And in the meantime, they've hired groundskeepers to keep the grounds. And my inciting incident is that in the first chapter is that the groundskeepers call up Violet, who's the big sister and who's been hiring them, and says. And they say, we have to cancel our contract. We're not coming back because my. My workers keep seeing a ghost on the grounds.
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C
You.
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B
And you have to come back and deal with this. So that was my second inciting incident. And she's going to call her siblings and say, I'm not going by myself. You have to come with me. We're all in this. And so that just kind of flowed very naturally that they would have to go back to the house. And yeah, you're right. It is two different incidents. And they're gonna. Yeah, yeah. That is sort of constructed that way.
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A
Yeah. Because, you know, we see a lot of things on the podcast that get submitted to us where the inciting incident is completely off the page. It's some trauma that happened 20 years ago, and then it's just some average day in June and the story picks up again and you're like, okay, but what is the modern day inciting incident? So it's just really important to make sure that you have two that answer those questions. Last question is, in a book like this, to maintain tension, you start with tension, but then you have to escalate tension, and you have to escalate stakes. The stakes have to keep getting higher. I mean, there's only so many times that the lights can flicker or there's a bump in the next room or somebody hears something. So again, you want to start strong, but you don't want to start so strong that you have nowhere to go after that. It's a slow simmer that goes to a boil. So, again, if you can just speak a bit about that kind of pacing.
- [27:08]
B
Yes. And one of the ways that I do it is, I mean, I just go through. I'm very ruthless. Again, like I say, I write bad first drafts, but I'm very ruthless in that every scene has to have more than one purpose, so it has to do more than one thing. So you have a scene with two people talking, two characters talking. You have to. Maybe there's some character, you learn something about one of the characters in that scene. So there's some character exposition or discovery in that scene. And that can't be the only thing that scene does. You need a second thing. So are you learning something about the setting? Are you upping the tension? Are you doing something plot wise? Is someone getting a phone call? Are you learning something plot wise? So, like, every scene has to have. At least. Has to have more. Do more than one thing. And so if I have a scene where I just have two people talking and they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the scene ends, you're like, this is a dead scene. What can I put in here? And so then I'm like, coming up with ways as I'm revising and I'm brainstorming ideas, what else can happen in the scene that makes it more interesting, more fun? Let's learn something new that the reader didn't know before, the characters didn't know before. Maybe the characters are going to have an argument and they're going to bring up something that has been bothering both of them for all these years. And in this scene, it's going to come out, you know, like, let's have something going. And so I'm always, like, coming up with more than one thing that each scene can do. And it doesn't always have to be a scary thing in every scene. There's not a scary thing in every scene. But if I'm going to add in a scary thing, I'm going in and I'm upping it. And I'm also trying to figure out where I am in the story with these characters, how they're going to react to it, and what it means to them that this particular thing is happening. So, yeah, it's definitely a balancing act. And it's something that I'm very conscious of as I'm drafting. And if I don't get it right, it's something that I go back to, can fix as I'm revising.
- [28:59]
A
Yeah. And also, like, scary things and how characters react to them reveal so much about character. You know, someone who can make a joke in the moment of terror, someone who freezes, who becomes completely paralyzed. I joke because my mother in Law had five sons, and yet anytime something bad happened, she would just, like, run down the road. That was her response to something bad happening, you know? And that tells you something about a person. Have you ever found yourself, Simone, combining scenes where you've written one scene and another and you just don't feel like each has enough happening? And so you're like, okay, I can combine them so that the scene is doing more than one particular thing? Or are you able to take a scene and really just get enough meat in there?
- [29:44]
B
Combining. I have done. It's pretty rare. If I have a scene that really isn't working, I just cut it. It's gone. It's gone forever. And I don't even have. I don't even have, like, a little file where I copy it and I paste it into, oh, maybe I'll use this someday. I know if it doesn't work, I'm never using it. It's got to be gone. Something that doesn't work has got to be gone. So I do. I mean, I will try and fix it or combine or do what I can or maybe salvage it, but if I can't salvage it, I just hit delete. I cut the whole thing, and I start. I started the whole different scene. Maybe I'm like, I got it. This didn't work. Let's change pov. Let's change setting. What's happening? Let's. Let's just start, and then let's go forward from there. So cutting is more often what I do. If something is not working, just delete. I know writers find that completely crazy. They're like, you don't just delete. I'm like, oh, yeah, I do. I just love it. Delete it into the. Into nowhere. It's gone.
- [30:34]
A
Fascinated by it. I love it. Well, Simone, I could have chatted to you for another few hours, but our time is up. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. For our list listeners who's not watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the book again, A Box Full of Darkness. We'll link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Get the book there. You support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. And after you've read this, go back, read the Sundown Motel. You're gonna love it as well. Thank you so much.
- [31:03]
B
Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.
- [31:05]
C
Those of you that have been here for a while know I love to update you on my summer vacation travels. So I want you to know we have chosen next year's. Trip. We are going to Germany and Austria so we can check out the Alps so we have some learning to do. Friends, I need to teach the kids some German too. They're obviously loving their summer Euro trips and I really hope we can continue it as a family. As long as they want to hang out with me forever. Right? Right. Our kids are going to want to be our best friends for the rest of their lives. Yes, yes, yes. So imagine how much richer your life could be with travel experiences if you could speak more languages With Rosetta Stone, you're going to gain the confidence to have real conversations and create deeper connections wherever you go. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, wherever and whenever it fits your hectic winter schedule. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, German, yes, German, can't wait, Japanese and more, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Learn faster, retain longer. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think, communicate with confidence. There's no English translation, so you truly learn to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. It has an intuitive learning process. You start with words, build to phrases and progress to full sentences. It's designed for long term retention so what you learn sticks with you. Learn anytime, anywhere. It fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. You can access your lessons from desktop or mobile app whether you have five minutes or an hour. And there's incredible value you can learn for life. A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50 off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today and start learning today. Are you starting a new job cleaning out last year's don't fit any more outfits? Do you simply need a wardrobe refresh? Well, Quince has you covered luxe essentials that feel effortless and polished. You can layer them, I know I do, and mix and build a wardrobe that lasts. The versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day and I am such a creature of habit that once I like something, I buy it in multiple colors and that's what I'm doing with my quince pieces. Quince has all the staples covered. I can't stop talking about the Mongolian cashmere tees and I will not rest until everyone has one. I've already talked them up to everyone in my life and I am talking them up to you too. I have three and I'm wearing them every day. The cashmere sweaters feel like designer pieces but don't have the markup. Then there's the 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up. Now let's talk Italian wool. The Italian wool coats are beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and built to be worn for years. Like everything from quid, each piece is made with premium materials and ethical listed factories, then priced far below other luxury brands. My cashmere sweaters are on constant rotation over here. It's been so cold lately that I've been layering a cashmere sweater tee with a cardigan over top for a lovely soft hugged wool feeling. You know when it's cold outside but you're going somewhere but you don't exactly know what the temperature is going to be inside. Happens to me all the time. And for that I've been wearing my sleeveless cashmere sweater. I can layer it, but if I'm too hot I have the right amount of coverage. It's so cozy. While giving my arm some room to breathe. It feels very chic as well. Multiple people in my extended family have bought them because I've been parading them around. I have the oatmeal in two styles and I have heather gray as well. The colors are very quiet luxury if you ask me. They have over 8,000 reviews on the website averaging. Wait for it, five stars. They have earned every single one, believe me. Refresh your wardrobe with quints. Don't wait. Go to quint.com te snatya for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com tisnaya to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com t snatya hi everyone.
- [35:02]
A
Today's guest is originally from New England. She now lives and works in Washington D.C. she has an MA in English Literature from George Washington University. When she's not imagining ways to make reality TV even more dramatic, she can be found reading, doing dance, fitness and petting other people's dogs. So definitely someone after my own heart. It's my pleasure to welcome Isabel Engel, Isabel, welcome to the show.
- [35:29]
D
Thank you so much for having me. It's really a thrill to be here.
- [35:33]
A
It's wonderful to have you here and I'll tell our guests more about you shortly. I just want to read the flap copy of the book so everyone has contacted Next. For those of you not watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the book's cover. It's called Most Eligible and it was such a fun read, honestly, such a fun read. I sold through it even though this isn't generally my genre and it was just like pages flying. Absolutely loved it. So we will link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. But let me read you the flap copy. And then Isabel has such an interesting journey to publication, which I'd like. I said us to focus on as well. So Georgia Rose is not going on the hit reality dating show Love Shack to find love. She's there to write a killer expose on the producers, which will guarantee the journalism job of her dreams. But when George's unforgettable one night stand from the year before, country singer Rhett Auburn steps into the Malibu mansion as the season's new host, all of her carefully crafted plans unravel. Caught up in the drama of backstabbing contestants, producer blackmail, and death defying dates, Georgia must keep her identity and history with Rhett a secret. Despite the lies between them. It isn't long before Georgia and Rhett's heated behind the scenes moments start to feel more genuine than the romance. Georgia's faking for the cameras, but with her assignments unfinished and the executive producer on her tail, a second chance with Rhett could be her riskiest move of all. So love it. So, Isabel, we discussed one of your critiques on books with hooks back in 2023, is that right?
- [37:18]
D
Yes, that is correct. That was such an exciting moment for me. That was a previous novel that I wrote. So that was the book that I working on before Most Eligible. And I, you know, wrote it, edited it, wrote the query and everything and submitted it to books with Hooks. And that was kind of the first. Yes. That I. That I got was having it on the show, which was really exciting. And I got some wonderful feedback and did query that book, but then ultimately shelved it in in later that year.
- [37:46]
A
Okay. Was there anything specifically with books with hooks that helped realign your thinking with that manuscript or that helped teach you for the next book?
- [37:56]
D
So many things, yes. I remember specifically that Carly or Sisi mentioned that this sort of lack of conflict in the book and it was something That I think was evident even just from the query, that there wasn't enough keeping the characters apart because it was a romance. So, you know, why can't they just get together right at the beginning of the book? And so that was really important. As I went on to revise the book further, I was thinking about how to amp up the tension and the conflict. And then for the next book, which was Most Eligible. There's a lot of conflict in Most Eligible. There's a lot of tension. And that was something that was different about that book right away, just because of the premise and the plot. And it was something that I, it was very fulfilling to know that I was kind of working on my craft in that way and thinking about the stakes and the tension and everything right from the start.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah, I love that. So, I mean, Most Eligible was, I think you said, after four books and over a hundred query rejections, you finally signed with your agent and then you got a two book deal with St. Martin Scriffen. So please take us through that entire journey because again, I know so many of our listeners are struggling, so many of them have written book after book and feeling kind of desolate and hopeless and are like, is it time to quit? And I know that you had had that moment as well. So please take us through all of that.
- [39:25]
D
Absolutely. And I will say, you know, I was and still am a regular listener. So this podcast is, is such a great resource and community for writers at all stages. So I guess we can rewind back pretty far. In high school. When I was a senior in high school, I wrote a book that I did revise pretty significantly. I worked on it for a really long time sitting in the stacks of my high school library on the floor at lunchtime. And I thought, okay, I really want to try to publish this book. I didn't know that much about the publishing world. You know, I was 17 or 18. But I sort of figured it out and I was actually looking back through and I was like, okay, I did, you know, a decent job at putting together a query and finding agents to send it to. So I sent that book to several dozen agents, queried it. I, I mean, I didn't, I don't think I correctly labeled it as to what genre it was. I don't think that the query was particularly good or anything, but I was learning. And that one, of course, did not go anywhere. I didn't get any requests or anything like that, but I wasn't that distraught about it. I think I just was very proud of myself for Putting it out there. And then in college, I did continue writing, but I was not writing anything kind of book length at that time. I was focusing on other. Other things. And then after college and in a few years after that, when I was starting my master's program, I had just moved to a new place, and I was, you know, just kind of looking for an outlet, and I started writing more seriously again. And I wrote one book, which I queried it to maybe like, six or seven people, and then kind of. I don't want to say gave up on it, but I was like, okay, this one is not. Is not the book for right now. So I enjoyed writing, but I set it aside pretty quickly. And then I wrote the manuscript that was critiqued on books with hooks, or the query was. Anyway. And that one was a little bit of a turning point, I think, because I'd had the experience of sending my work to agents, and I had the experience of, like, going through admission processes, but I had never gotten anything back. Like, no, it was kind of like all my emails, you know, we're going out into the void. And then all of a sudden, you know, I was. Was on books with hooks, which was really exciting. And I did get a few full requests. And so it kind. It. It was a bit of a confidence boost, even if the book didn't. Didn't ultimately go anywhere. Although I would. I would love to revisit it someday. So that was in 2022 or 2023. And then while I was querying that book, you know, I queried so many agents. I mean, I don't know how many specifically, probably, you know, 80 to 100 or something. And I got some, you know, positive feedback. People said that they liked the writing, they liked the beginning, but then the rest of the book, it was. There wasn't really enough going on. There wasn't really a plot, if I'm being totally honest. And so I had a moment, like you said, of thinking, like, I could just give up. Like, there's nobody, you know, standing over me telling me to do this. It's really just me, and I want to make this happen and keep trying, which I think is an important moment to go through, when you realize that, like, you're the one driving your journey forward. Like, no matter how many amazing and supportive people there are around you in your community, you're the one driving it forward. And just kind of as a distraction, I started working on what would become most eligible, and I wanted it to be very different, but it wasn't, like, sort Of a intentional decision. I just kind of went into it and like did whatever I wanted and just really had fun writing it. And I felt like it was more me. It was funnier. It was just kind of fun, but also had a deeper undercurrent a little bit. And I guess to get back to the, like, publication side of things, I submitted that to the Smooch Pit mentorship program, which is a wonderful program that matches aspiring romance authors with published or agented authors. And I was lucky enough to be selected for that program. And through that did a lot of revisions on the book and the showcase for that program, the agent showcase is ultimately how I did connect with my now agent. And so it was a little bit of a whirlwind. Like that all felt like it went very quickly, but there was a lot of. I, you know, the book was, by the time I was querying, it was completely unrecognizable from the first draft. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:04]
A
I mean, that is the thing is that it has to constantly be evolving. And I think so many writers just want to draft once and send it off. And if they get no's and they start drafting a new book and send it off and honestly, a book comes alive in the constant rewriting. And the fact that you said that it was unrecognizable at the end from how it was in the beginning just speaks, speaks to how much work goes in to constantly revising. So for our listeners who are interested in Smooch Pit, is it still running? How many pages did you have to submit? What did that process look like? Because I know a lot of them are going to be like, ask about that.
- [44:43]
D
Yeah, it's such a great program. I mean, I can't say enough good things about it. So it is still running. So they're currently in a cycle of mentors working with mentees right now. And I feel so lucky to be a mentor now, which has been really exciting and another fun full circle moment. And so I believe September is when the applications are usually due. So if you're a romance author and you're interested, look out for that around August or September and you submit your query letter synopsis and I believe the first five or 10 pages. So it's kind of like a query package. But I think if you're applying to a mentorship program, it's. It's important to remember that it's not querying your book doesn't have to be perfect. And in fact, if your book is too perfect, then there's, you know, maybe Not. Not enough to work on in the program. So just remember that the mentors reading your work will be really excited about the potential of your book and about working with you and not just about, like, receiving a final product, because that's not. That's not really what they're looking for. So it's a great program.
- [45:49]
A
And how long does it take from when you get selected to when the final showcase is? Because I assume you're all working towards a deadline. So the mentor is like, these are the things you need to fix. This is what you need to work on. What is. What does that process look like?
- [46:03]
D
Yeah, so when I did it, I believe that the selections were in October, and then the showcase was in February, around Valentine's Day. So it was a pretty quick turnaround. This year they've extended it a little bit so that the showcase is in March, which gives kind of an extra month for revisions. But it's. Yeah, it's about, like four or five months, and it kind of depends on the book and the project as to how much you're going to work on it. I did quite, quite a lot of revisions of various levels, so it was. It was definitely a lot of work during that time. But it was. It was really awesome to have a mentor to, like, be going through that with. And the deadline, I think, was also helpful because it was. It was good to have, like, a timeline to work towards and a distinct and really concrete goal.
- [46:50]
A
Yeah. And hats off to you for being prepared to work on it so much. Because, you know, a lot of writers will say they just want feedback, but when they get feedback, they will explain why you are wrong and why you misunderstood their work. And so they're not really as inclined to go, okay, I really do want this feedback and I really am going to use this feedback. So hats off to you for doing that. Then once your agent sold it and you got the two book deal, how many edits needed to be done again? Well, how many edits were done with your agent before it went to the publisher and then how many edits after.
- [47:25]
D
That Again, quite a few, I would say. So the. The book itself, kind of the shape of the book, like the bones of the book didn't really change, but with my agent, we did change the ending of the book, which was both a big deal and also not that consequential in a certain way, you know, because everything leading up to that was kind of the same and it had like the same emotional resonance in the end, but we just changed a few kind of Logistical things. And then we did some line editing. And in the book there's also these little interstitials before each chapter. And when I was querying, I only had those on a few chapters. And my agent said, oh, let's put these on every single chapter. That would be really fun. So that was another kind of big change. We put those on every chapter. And then when I signed with my editor at St. Martin's Griffin, we did, I think, two rounds of larger kind of developmental edits. And again, like, the bones of the book didn't change, but it was really about fleshing out a lot of things. So fleshing out the side characters, which are probably one of my favorite parts of the book, if not my favorite part. We have this really kind of larger than life cast of delightful side characters. So I was all in on developing them even more. And we also added a little bit more on the romance. We added a little bit more on our main characters kind of past emotional wounds, which was very helpful, I think, in the end. And then we did another round of developmental edits, kind of refining those things, and then several rounds of line edits and then copy edits and then and things like that after that. But those were like the main kind of bigger edits.
- [49:10]
A
I mean, it's interesting to me that your previous feedback was that your novels were too quiet, because this is not a quiet novel by any means. And I imagine a lot of research had to go into this because, you know, for me, I have always been like a big Survivor fan, for example, and I don't watch the romance reality TV stuff. I've never watched the Bachelor or anything like that. But what I've always wanted to watch is a behind the scenes of Survivor. I want to see a documentary of how it gets filmed, etc. And so you give us so much of that in terms of this book. So how much research went into that? Because as a viewer, you can watch a reality show multiple times. It doesn't mean you know what happens behind the scenes.
- [49:58]
D
Yeah, that is such a great question. And yes, I think that this is not a quiet book. It's kind of loud. It's a little bit over the top in a way. That was really fun to write. And you are right that a lot of research did go into this book and it was really fun to do that research. So I'm sad to say that I did not go undercover on reality TV in order to learn what it's like. But I did do a lot of research. So I am a fan of the Bachelor. And for listeners, the Bachelor is kind of the touchstone for the book, what it's loosely based on, but it's a fictionalized version, of course. So I'm a Bachelor fan. I'm a fan of other reality shows, but I'm not like a die hard watch every episode viewer. I like to kind of drop in once every few seasons, you know, get my fill and then dip back out for a few seasons.
- [50:50]
C
And.
- [50:51]
D
And in terms of the research, I listened to a ton of, like, podcasts with former contestants. I read several books about the Bachelor, as well as memoirs of previous contestants. And I also was lucky enough to get to speak to a few former contestants, which was really cool. I was not expecting anyone to reply to me because, you know, at the time, I. I didn't feel like I had the kind of external validation in order, like, to be able to ask these questions, people, because I was not agent and I was, you know, writing. But a few people did respond, and it was just so kind of them to take the time to speak to me. And one of the. One of the most fun things I learned, I think, because I had kind of thought, oh, it's probably all, you know, scripted, planned ahead of time, and partially, I think that's true. But one of the contestants who I spoke to who'd been on the Bachelorette, said that the first time he saw the lead was filmed, and, you know, it's when he walked up to the mansion, which I guess I had just assumed that it was all a little bit more fake than that, but it was. It was cool to know that that is actually at least partially real. So the research was very fun, and I had a really. A really great time doing that and, like, learning so much about it, both, you know, through kind of the viewer's perspective, like, watching things, how is this appearing on tv, but also from the behind the scenes perspective as well.
- [52:19]
A
Yeah, and it just added that specificity. Cece is always talking on the podcast about specificity, specificity. And, you know, there were things that I was going, oh, my goodness. Like here you're trying to have an authentic, natural reaction, for example, to seeing somebody when you arrive and suddenly a producer tells you, stop, go back and look more enthused or look this way or that way, and then you've got to recheck your initial reaction. And I would be like, oh, my God, I would hate. Hate that. So it was me, too. Yeah, it was. It was really fascinating. But I also love that you reached out to people and some of Them replied, because I think I would be the same. I'd be like, oh, they're never going to reply. What's the point? But I mean, I guess the worst that can happen is you hear silence or somebody says no.
- [53:06]
D
Yeah, it was, I think, an eye opening moment. And also really lovely to hear people being excited about the work that I was doing. Because the one person I spoke to on the phone, I was ready to kind of jump right in with my questions. Like, didn't want to take up too much of his day. And he was like, first of all, let me just say how awesome that you're writing a book. Like, that's so cool. You know, I have so much respect for that. And it was a really cool moment for me to step back and realize that myself. And then, you know, he was excited to hear about the premise of the book. And he said, that's probably totally realistic. You know, there's a lot of behind the scenes time, so a contestant could absolutely have this kind of secret romance. Which was a fun little tidbit to hear as well.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's. That's amazing. Well, I mean, you've got a book within a book here as well. So you've got these sort of interstitials and you've got quotes from the so called book Shacking up, the Definitive Unauthorized Guide to Winning Love Shack. And I loved each of those quotes at the beginning to kind of set us up for the chapters. So was it that you wrote each of those sort of, you know, quotes from the book as you needed them, or did you sit first and work on that part of the book and then work on the rest of the book? How did that evolve?
- [54:27]
D
Yeah, so those are very, very loosely based on a real book, which is called how to Win the Bachelor. And I think the quotes in my book are a little bit more provocative and like, you probably wouldn't want the actual Bachelor producers to. To read them versus the real life book, but it was a bit of a mix of both. So I had a little document going where if I had an idea for something like that, I would kind of put it down in the document, but not really think about where exactly it would go within the book. But then if there was a scene where I thought, oh, I would love to have this particular quote or moment, I would kind of put it there while I was drafting. But then when it came down to, you know, making the final decisions about where each of these little quotes would go, I really wanted them to have a connection to the chapter that they were going in front of. Not spoilers, per se, but just something that kind of hints at the. The drama that's about to happen. So if it's, you know, if they're going on a group date where all the contestants are fighting for the lead, then I think the. The quote for that chapter is something like, very dramatic, like, only one can survive, or something like that. And so it's just some, like, a little connection to kind of get you excited to read the chapter.
- [55:45]
A
Yeah, and it's. It's a hugely ambitious book as well, because you have video transcripts in between. You know, there's. There's a lot going on. So that was when I realized, because, you know, I like to go into a book blind. Half the time I don't even read the jacket copy. I'm just like, I don't want to be told too much. I just dive in. And I was like, how is this a debut? This does not feel like a debut. And this, again, speaks to how those other books taught you how to write this book, along with your mentors and everybody else. So nothing along the way is wasted. I mean, did it feel hugely ambitious to you tackling all of this?
- [56:27]
D
Yes, and also very fun. I think a lot of the things, like the kind of extra content that's not in the main narrative, those were things that I was kind of, like, writing alongside, just kind of having fun with it. And it was a. It was also, I thought, an entertaining way to get in other perspectives, because through the book, we are in George's head. It's a single POV novel. So it was, you know, you get like, a tiny little snippet of the love interest's perspective or some of the other contestants. And I mean, yes, it was. It was definitely a little bit intimidating to go into that, but I think it makes the book kind of. It makes the book more of an experience. Like, you're hopefully feeling like you are getting, like, the best and most juicy and dramatic parts of watching a reality show. And I think, yeah, it was. It was fun. It was ambitious. It was intimidating. But ultimately, it was. It was worth it.
- [57:31]
A
I love how you gave us a few antagonists. So, you know, often in romance, you go, okay, the antagonist is, I don't know, somebody else who's vying for that person's attention. Here we have some contestants who are pretty awful. I love that there were other contestants who were lovely. You know, you showed female friendship and female confidence competition and how women can be supportive of each other. And also how women can tear each other down. So there were some contestants that I was like, we need to get rid of you. I. I do not like you. We need you out of here now. But then also we had the producer as antagonist as well. And I, I don't think I really thought about romance as needing quite so many antagonists, but. But it does. And this worked so well.
- [58:15]
B
Effy.
- [58:16]
D
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that was. That is also another one of my favorite parts of the book and I think is something that makes it a little bit different than some other romance novels that I've read and something that I was a little bit nervous about when I was writing and querying because I was like, is this romance? I mean, it is, but there's also, you know, moments in it where she's pretending to be in love with someone else and there's all. There's like other plot things going on. And I wasn't totally sure if romance readers would respond to that. And I, I don't really look at the early reviews, but I think people have responded to it really well. And I'm also, you know, so honored that you mentioned the female friendship aspect, because that was super important to me to include that in the book because I just, I think it's really important to show women supporting each other, especially in an environment where they could be pitted against each other and in an environment where there's all these antagonists, whether they're real or imagined. And the antagonists were something that developed a lot in edits with my editor at St. Martin's she said make the producer worse, like, make her more evil. And so I did. So she's more evil now than she was before. And so that was, that was fun and interesting because I thought she was pretty bad before, but she's potentially worse now.
- [59:39]
A
Yeah, she was terrifying. She was terrifying. And I could see you had so much fun with it. And, and also, like the humor and the voice of the character was. It was so funny. There were so many delightful sort of laugh out loud moments as well. So do you feel like those last books helped you develop your voice, lean into that humor more? Because I really believe in playing to our strengths. And sometimes people feel like, okay, well, I'm going to write something more serious or whatever, for whatever reason. But, like, you're clearly a funny, witty, delightful person. I'd love to have you at a dinner party. It comes across in the book. So was that something you leaned into?
- [60:19]
D
Oh, thank you. That's very sweet. I think that I Lean into that more in writing than in real life. But I try to be a good guest, I promise. Yes, I think the previous books I wrote definitely helped me develop my voice. And it feels kind of funny to say my voice now. I can feel a little bit of imposter syndrome sneaking in. But I think previous books too, were a little bit more mirrored on things that I had read. Not, you know, just parallels of other books already out there, but like, you know, I had authors that I really admired and liked, and I was kind of trying to emulate their voice and style. And to a certain extent, I think that's a fantastic practice. And you know, of course you want to be learning from other authors, but in this book, I think I. I went and I sort of wrote and I did things and I developed my voice in a way that I don't know that I had specifically read something super similar. And I'm sure that it is out there. There's just so many books in the world. And I think I really felt like I found my groove writing this book and being able to kind of just like go with the funny moments and trust my. My instincts and my voice because I felt like I really knew what the book was and I wanted to. To stay true to that.
- [61:36]
A
No, I love all those insights. Those. Those are all incredible.
- [61:39]
B
Okay.
- [61:40]
A
I mean, we're at the end of our time, which is really, really sad. So for those of you who not watching on YouTube, I am holding up most eligible Isabel Engel. We're gonna link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Oh, I just remembered what I wanted to say as well is that when you said emulating other writers. You know, for those of you who don't read our substack, we actually have a brilliant article which is probably a few weeks back of somebody who said that they learned to develop their voice by emulating other writers voices and learning the sentence structure and the style and the cadence, etc. And then finally through emulating, they were able to distinguish their own voice. So what you've said aligns with what they said as well, which was a really, really good article as well. So for those of you who don't listen to, who don't read the substack, go back and find that article. Isabel, we're wishing you so much luck with this book. We'll be here cheering you on. And good luck with the next one.
- [62:35]
D
Thank you so much for having me, Bianca.
- [62:37]
A
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes, Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible, and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.