← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Pinball Effect in Fiction
00:44:06
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
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- [01:13]
Cece Lira
What's up everyone? This is Cece.
- [01:15]
Carly Waters
If you're a longtime listener of this podcast, then chances are you've heard me talk about the importance of writing on a line level.
- [01:22]
Cece Lira
And of course I have.
- [01:23]
Carly Waters
Because while movies get to rely on lighting, soundtrack, acting and special effects, books rely only on words to make a story come to life.
- [01:33]
Cece Lira
Which is why the writing matters so much.
- [01:36]
Carly Waters
My question to you is, are you confident about your writing? Do you feel like it's at the level it needs to be to stand out in the competitive publishing landscape? If you're like most writers I know, then you're always looking for ways to improve. Well, what if I told you that there's a way to supercharge your learning experience by hacking or writing on a line level? That's right, hacking it. I've developed an original four day course, Hacking Writing on a Line Level that will show you specific techniques to elevate your writing on a word level, sentence level, paragraph level, and scene level. This course begins on December 4th. My favorite part about it is that there are clear, specific examples in every single slide. No fluff, all actionable content. And for the first time ever, we'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your writing on a line level, and as long as you're a reader.
- [02:53]
Cece Lira
So if you're ready to take your.
- [02:54]
Carly Waters
Writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. It's a fan favorite. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [03:19]
Bianca Murray
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Carly, can you please read us your query letter?
- [03:43]
Kali
Dear Carly, I'm seeking representation for my YA fantasy novel, the Last Tree in Galanthus. Complete at 75,000 words, it is the first in a planned trilogy with a sequel already in progress. Seventeen years ago, humans overthrew the Elven monarchy and declared the dawn of a new age an equal, democratic society powered by technology instead of magic. But equality was a lie. Now Galanthus is dying, elves are imprisoned in compounds, their ears clipped and mutilated. Orcs waste away in refugee camps, dwarves hide in underground ruins, and both humans and otherworldlies face starvation as resources vanish. Hope rests on three unlikely allies the heir to the Elven throne, an exiled princess raised by humans, her fiercely loyal human sister, and the disillusioned son of the president who led the revolution. The princess harbors a secret growing power, the ability to restore life to a dying world. Together, the three must heal the fractures their parents left behind. But deception, forbidden love, and the legacy of old betrayals threaten to unravel their fragile alliance. Before can begin the last dream, Galanthus blends the elemental magic of an ember in the ashes with the political complexity of Red Queen. It will appeal to fans of Tomi Adeyemi's the Children of Blood and Bone and Tracy Dion's Legendborn. With its focus on political intrigue, rebellion and sisterhood, it reimagines familiar fantasy tropes, placing elves and orcs not as all powerful beings, but as marginalized survivors in a modern society. I grew up in South Africa, where I witnessed both the deep scars of segregation and the beauty of people uniting across divides. Those experiences shaped the heart of the story. This isn't a book with an agenda, but one that invites young readers into a richly imagined world. It explores the complexities of siblings and friendship bonds, encourages reflection on the shape of society, and captures the thrill of romance just beginning to unfold. I would be honored by your consideration and would be delighted to share the full manuscript at your request. Sincerely redacted.
- [05:43]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much, Kali. Okay, what was that word count and what was your take on it?
- [05:48]
Kali
Yeah, so it came in at around 350 words. So my take on it. Let's just start at the top. So I really like this title. I think it's great. I think the word count is pretty much on point here. You say the first in a planned trilogy with a sequel already in progress. That's great. I just wouldn't put that there. I would put the comps there and then I would take that line and put it at the bottom. Because, you know, I always talk about real estate. You know, a query letter is real estate and the most valuable real estate is going to be at the top, which catches people's attention. And for a YA fantasy novel, many people will assum that it could be a series. So I think that that goes without saying. But it doesn't have to take up valuable real estate at the top. So I put the comps here, focus on the hook a bit more. What I think this query letter does really well, and it's very hard to do well is just really like simplify the world. I think we have a very strong understanding of what's actually happening in this world in terms of, you know, the good guys, the bad guys, the complexities, the magic, all of that sort of stuff. So I think that I think that's really well done. What I think this query fails to do is really center a main character because we spend they're short kind of paragraphs, if you want to call them that, but essentially like three paragraphs talking about the world. And we don't have a main character to kind of introduce as the lens in which we're going to see this through. Starting with the facts. And again, it's this balance of like I think it does this well, but if we could center a main character, I think it'd be even stronger because it comes off as you are just describing a world. And what we want to do is follow a character through the world and see. See the world through this character's eyes. So that's what I think will really make this a lot stronger. The other thing is we never name anybody. It's an exiled princess, a fiercely loyal human sister, a disillusioned son of the president. By not naming them, it also kind of creates a lot of distance between the reader and what's happening here. So I think naming them would help as well, kind of bring this story to life. Overall. There is something familiar about this. Right? It's like there's a revolution, and there are two sides and there's allies. So I'm always trying to figure out with a story like this, what is the thing that is going to really, you know, make it stand out. I think you buried the love story here, and I can't quite figure out why we're burying the love story. If perhaps because this is a planned trilogy, the love story doesn't really blossom until later in the trilogy, perhaps. But I think if we can kind of explain that a little bit more, I think that would create a little bit more stakes between these two sides and how these allies come together. I think that would help a lot. And, yeah, I don't know. I think it's one of those things where it's not my primary category, so it's hard for me to say whether I think this will or won't stand out in this category. But I do think you've done a great job of summarizing the world. As long as you can center a main character, I think that will really make this one stand out even more and kind of help illuminate what is unique and special about this when somebody does read a lot of fantasy queries.
- [08:37]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, cece, we're handing it across to you now.
- [08:40]
Cece Lira
I thought it was really imaginative. Like, I always think it's so impressive that someone can come up with such a unique and, you know, imaginative world. So definitely echoing what Carly said about the world building is really clear. You did a really good job of conveying that, But. And again, this is where I feel mean. It feels too big picture. Like, it feels too zoomed out. You know, I'm not looking at the story. I'm like a bird flying in the sky looking down at planet Earth, as opposed to being inside planet Earth in a specific city in a Specific neighborhood in a specific house. I'll give you examples. So the princess has a power. And reading from the query letter, the ability to restore life to a dying world. What does that mean? That's too big of a power, Right? So if she has the ability to restore life, just do it. But then I'm thinking, okay, so she can't use her power for some reason. Like her power, you know, in order to be activated, they need to go on a quest. Great. What does that quest look like? I have no idea. Because you haven't told me. You've told me that they must heal the fractures their parents left behind. Don't know what that looks like. You've told me that deception, forbidden love, and the legacy of old betrayals are threats. I don't know what the quest looks like in fantasy. It's really easy to get bogged down by worldbuilding, and I empathize so much. But the quest. The quest is where we need specificity. Like, the quest is the most important part. You know, you are spending a lot of time, and you're doing it really well, by the way, focusing on the backstory, the history, focusing on the themes, the heart. You know, there's a beautiful line here about it. Explores the complexity of sibling and friendship bonds, encourages reflection. That's actually really great that you know that about your story. It shows that your stories has layers and layers, and that's impressive. But you can't lead with that, because at the end of the day, in order for someone to fall in love with your story's themes and for your story to stay with someone and for an acquiring editor to be like, oh, this book really stayed with me and made me think of, you know, my sibling and my friendships and those bonds. First, they need to be really curious about the story, and you haven't given us enough on the story. So I think you really need to rethink to Carly's point about real estate, what are you going to lead with? Lead with that quest. Really focus on that quest and make it super specific.
- [11:01]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, can you tell us what's in the opening pages?
- [11:06]
Kali
All right. We start with a prologue called the Pale Palace. We are opening in the morning. There is some sort of kind of war revolution of some kind happening in the distance. We imagine that we are in the palace, and the threat of this war, whatever's happening, is getting closer and closer to them. We know that there is obviously a lot going on between, like, the monarch. And we have a character named Rain, and they are Speaking in elfish, an old language that they have spoken. And then they go down the hall once they kind of work through some of the war stuff, they go down the hall and somebody is giving birth to a elfin baby, which seems like a very, like, rare occasion. And everybody's really excited about it, but the war is kind of coming closer to them. And they decide that they have to take the baby and get the baby to safety because of the again, battle coming towards the palace. They decide that the baby is going to be raised by humans. There's a bit of a disagreement between the characters about whether that's the right thing to do. And one of the, I think we can assume, pretty sure human servants is going to take the baby across a border to be raised by a human family. And that is where the prologue ends. And then we jump to 17 years later. We have a chapter one. We're in the POV of somebody called Violet, and we know that essentially this is the sister of the baby who was being raised in this human family. And this is an interaction in this chapter between the two sisters. And that is where we are.
- [12:43]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Kali. Okay, so what did you think?
- [12:46]
Kali
All right, so I really loved the first paragraph. I thought it was so well done. I'll read it because I think it was. It was really, really great. We are in the eye of the storm. Rainn thought he could just make out the smoke billowing up from the horizon. A hangover from the attack on the orcs the night before it almost peaceful now. The wind had dropped and the thickness of the night sky was melting away, making way for the dark ruse of dawn. Brilliant writing. You know, you can obviously tell this person spent so much time crafting this opening piece has such a way with words. So I. I thought that was so, so well done. The next paragraph is where I started to kind of wander my mind away. Like, I really wanted to be swept into this world. I was like, okay, there's a battle and there's orcs and there's elves and, you know, and I was in it, and I'm like, okay, the dawn is rising. And then the next line, he says, how long do we have? Argo was talking to someone on his cell phone inside the palace. And as soon as I heard the word cell phone, my brain goes, okay, technology. What's different about this world? How is this world different than ours? And I start to just, like, spin and spiral and, like, create my own narrative and questions about the world that if you don't kind of. It's not that you always have to immediately answer the questions that the reader has, but you don't want the reader to start to have their mind wander. So as I was kind of reading these pages, I was looking for instances where I was kind of pulled out of the narrative. And essentially, this draft reads to me as something that definitely still needs to go through, you know, editing in terms of, like, beta readers. And there's still a lot of work to do. I can tell. This person understands their world so deeply, which is incredible. But there's instances where, you know, just interactions between these elves. So we're trying to figure out, like, okay, who's the Monarch and what is he doing? In one scene, the Monarch's upset after he throws this cell phone. And then it says, there must be more we can do. Rey knelt before his king, placing both his hands on his monarch's slumped head. But you never tell us where the Monarch is. Is he on a couch? Is he on the ground? Is he in a chair? I just found the stage directions really out of sync, and I couldn't. I felt like I was doing all the mental gymnastics as the reader to fill in the gaps of what was actually happening in the story from a scene point of view. I just felt like the grasp on scene wasn't as strong as it could because the grasp on world is very strong. The grasp on scene, I thought, needed some more work. So I was definitely, like, pulled out a number of times. I also. I think this is really interesting because Rain, this character, Rain, again, I didn't understand who they were in particular. I didn't know if they were like, a son, a stepson, a general. I did not understand who Rain was. But Rain did not like the humans. And I really liked when we got a little bit of friction between. He didn't trust them and why doesn't he trust them? That was really, really well done. But I also didn't know if Rain was an orc or an elf. I'm assuming Rain was an elf because they were in the elf, you know, castle. Yeah, I don't know. I just didn't understand, like, their relationship to how they felt about everything. I also didn't understand how old Rain was. And if we're centering somebody named Rain. Clearly they're very important in this story. But was Rain a figure to get us to the scene where the baby is born? Who is the princess who will have all the powers? So I, again, I didn't really understand who I'm supposed to be focusing on in particular. And because we had such an emphasis on our character named Rain. I just assumed they're going to have a lot more to do with it, which is why I want a lot more internal reaction to how he felt about everything. Because at one point they said, argo looked up. He looked his years. He had not slept for days. None of them had. And I kind of made a note. Maybe this is an opportunity to kind of establish something, right? Like, Rain hadn't seen him this tired since the rebellion five years ago. And then, da, da, da, da, da, da. Right? We get into some contextualization of this relationship. Because I think a prologue that leaves too many questions is a failed prologue. Because the goal of prologue is obviously to establish some excitement or energy or what's to come or tease something a little bit. But when we're teasing everything, then how is a prologue doing justice to the story that it's trying to tell? So that was the part where I was just lost about how this was in service to the larger story. Because it is a lot of premise. And obviously, the reason that we're focusing on this is obviously because the baby is being born. And obviously that's very important because she is our princess. Another reason that I think this is still, like, nascent stages of a draft is when there's dialogue happening. There's a lot of repeating the character's name in the dialogue, which it is just one of my pet peeves. So maybe it was standing out to me, but it would say, you know, how is she, Mae? Argo asked. She is battling my king. She's in lots of pain, but it should be over soon. Argo opened the door and gestured for Mae to step aside. Wait here, Reign, he said. I will call you in. Just a lot of that. Like, we. We know everybody that's in the scenes. We don't always have to say who's in the scene or address them. Again, if there's the formality with the king piece, that makes sense to me. But addressing everybody by their name while we have the dialogue tag and we understand who's all in the scene is one of my pet peeves. But that could just be me. Okay, so then we jump to chapter one. This person sent us a very long sample. I will give them not a slap on the wrist, but they did send us, like, seven pages. But I think it was because they wanted the prologue and then they wanted to give us the chapter one. So I understand why they did that. But it is longer than the five pages. So when we jump to chapter one, crossing the Border. We are with Violet and Irina, and Irina is the princess baby character that is supposedly born in the prologue, and it says 17 years later. But these pages felt very young to me, which actually worried me a little bit, because, like, they're talking about, like, hurry up, we're late. Come look at this. And then she says, if it's another aunt and carrying food, I'm gonna be mad. That felt very young to me. What is it that she wants her to look at? Like, ants and bugs felt like, so young and juvenile to me. So I worried a little bit with this being a YA novel that that felt like a very young scene to me. So I just want to flag that, Just kind of making sure that we are at the YA level here with these characters and where they are. But I will stop there and I will turn it over to you guys.
- [19:03]
Bianca Murray
Thanks, Carly.
- [19:04]
Cece Lira
Okay, Cece, I just want to say it's not a pet peeve. Carly, I'm going to diagnose you. It's your agent brain going, this is still green. Because when you repeat names in dialogue, often, that is 100% A. My dialogue is still being worked chopped. That's something I recommend most writers do. Like, take your dialogue and actually cut as much as possible. Sometimes you can even cut every other line, which is a screenwriting technique. But again, we talk about names. It is one of those things where you can tell, hmm, this is still green.
- [19:35]
Bianca Murray
Can I just interject there? I want to say that in the last year, I've read, like, three novels by well established authors who are extremely well known, and they do it too. And then I'm like, this is not a green author. They should know better, and the editor should have done something. So it is a pet peeve of mine, 100%.
- [19:55]
Cece Lira
And that's fair. I also think a lot of authors go, but, hey, I'm reading these novels. They're doing it. Why can't I? You're held to a higher standard. That's why this is the reality of publishing people. I feel very strongly. I've said this before. This is a hill I will die on. Never begin your book. Never with direct thoughts in italic. Never. There is no reason to. Seriously, we are already inside the protagonist's head. There's no reason for you to do the direct thoughts in italics. Just have it be, rain was in the eye of the storm, or they were in the eye of the storm period. Like, you don't need the direct thoughts. It's completely unnecessary. It is not something that is wrong. This is A sisi problem. I'm just letting you know we are in Rain's head for the prologue. I don't think Rain is a main character, though, just based on the query letter. I don't think Rain is. I think Raine was the POV the author chose because they wanted the book to begin with the baby being born and the mother, which was very heartbreaking, having to give the baby up right, to be raised by humans. So I think the author was like, I'm going to choose Rain's point of view to do that, which is fair. If they had started with the mother, then we would have all been, like, totally broken because the woman was giving birth and having to give up her baby. And it would have been the most depressing thing I've ever read. If they had started with the King, maybe the King has too much power. So, like, I get it. I get why you chose Rain. At the same time, I don't know if there isn't another option, if there isn't an option of an omniscient Bird's eye prologue, or if you're going to go inside Rain's head just for the prologue, then really go inside Rain's head. Because right now, and Carly mentioned this, the King tells Rain it's done, which is the most tragic thing they can hear in that moment. And there's no emotional reaction from Rain, no interiority. Rain speaks and he moves, but he has no internal reaction. And we're reading a book, I'm supposed to feel someone's internal reaction. And then the king, who by the way, is teasing Rain, apparently the King's like, no, no, but there is hope. Okay, well, now Rain's heart is supposed to soar because there's hope. Or maybe he has a relationship with Hope that's like, no, no, he won't let himself hope, you know, because hope has led to too much heartbreak in his life. I don't know. But the point is, there's a pinball effect in storytelling, which is when you have a character say something to another character, there needs to be a reaction from your protagonist, from the person whose head you're in. And when your protagonist says something, they need to be interpreting the other character's reaction. Their face, their eyes, their body movements. They need to be imagining what they're thinking. And that pinball effect is what makes a book a book. And it's so important that as the author, you really, really direct us with a lot of intentionality in a tight, precise, very curiosity inducing way is a hard thing. To do, but it's something you have to do. So I was like, again, maybe we have to be in this person's head, but if we are, then you really need to go in. I will say this. The idea of a book where the main character, I'm assuming she's the main character, is an elf that was raised by humans that I love like, that I think is super original, super fun. It's like outsider Y. It opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for power imbalances, for, you know, messy dynamics. That's brilliant. But your chapter one, okay, Grinch hat. Should I get my Grinch hat? Your chapter one, it's just not as curiosity inducing as it needs to be. You know, like, it's these two girls just being. And I know there's a lot of advice out there that says chapter one should be a snapshot of your protagonist's life before the inciting incident, the status quo. So the inciting incident can disrupt, but that status quo still needs to be interesting and curiosity inducing. It can't just be another day, like a random day. I've had a lot of writers tell me, but hey, Cece, in this book, isn't it another day? And I go and I read the book and I'm like, no, it's not just another day. This is why it's a really curiosity inducing moment in the story. And I think that advice leads to a lot of bad beginnings, Wrong beginnings maybe. I think that's what's happening here. I don't know. I would love to ask this author, who is your protagonist? Like, is it the princess? I think it is, but I don't know. So it's something to think about. But I definitely think you have an interesting hook. It's just still in the early draft stage, in my view.
- [24:21]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much, Cece. Okay, before we move to the next query, a word from our sponsors.
- [24:26]
Kali
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- [28:07]
Bianca Murray
All right, now we're handing it across to Cece. Could you read us your query?
- [28:11]
Cece Lira
Dear Ms. Lyra, I'm seeking representation for Crooked Soldiers, a 74,000 word narrative nonfiction memoir set inside New York's notorious MCC jail, dubbed the Guantanamo of the East. Think Orange Is a New Black meets Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, where kung fu, insider trading and Mafia ghosts collide in a love story told through daily prison letters. This book took 22 years to finish because Mike, the story's central figure and my soulmate, died before I could complete it. Years after his passing, his letters still wrecked me wholesale. Grief, unsolicited bawling. Eventually, that grief became fuel. I was on a mission like training for an ironman to tell the stories only Homie and I knew. Crooked Soldiers centers on two unlikely Mike, a mantis kung fu master and grandson of an Italian mobster and bunky son of a Dominican drug dealer. Inside MCC's absurd, terrifying and surreal system, a rotating meta puzzle of codes, Chinatown spice runs, and cryptic jailhouse hierarchies. Mike holds onto his sanity through his off kilter bond with Mudge, his kung fu partner and wife. When Mike is imprisoned for insider trading, Mudge challenges him to write every day so his time inside won't be wasted. The result is a story of incarceration, devotion and survival spann three generations of Italian and Dominican families from Sicily and La Vega to Queens and the Bronx. I'm an inventor, movement junkie and compulsive creator of things from martial arts, theater and kinetic gaming wearables to this book. I was a member of the US Wushu Team, the first female disciple of Tong Bae Kung Fu, and toured 22 countries with my Belgian dance company C13. I've worked as a designer and animator for NASA, MTV and NBA, and in 2022 published Walk, a satirical travelogue about walking 1,000 kilometers after total hip replacement surgery. I speak seven languages and share my book with over 30,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. I am also mudge in this book. The full manuscript is available upon request and is currently under review with another agent. Thank you for your time and consideration.
- [30:44]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, cece. Wow. That's one of the most interesting author bios I've read in a very, very long time. Can you tell us what the word count of that was and then your take on it?
- [30:54]
Cece Lira
The word count was 352. My take from the narrative nonfiction memoir. Is it a memoir? Then all you need to do is write memoir. If it's narrative nonfiction, all you need to do is write narrative nonfiction. You're essentially telling me it's two different genres, like there's just no need for it. Maybe you're thinking, but my memoir is told in narrative nonfiction. Anyone wondering narrative nonfiction? People describe it as a genre of storytelling that will present the facts that come with nonfiction, but you know, through the techniques of storytelling. But we don't have to specify that, like, a memoir is already told in usually narrative, creative form. I don't know that this is a memoir, though, and I'll get to that in a second paragraph. 2 It is a paragraph about how this book took 22 years to finish because the author, the person who was querying us, the person who was being brave and vulnerable and so courageous right now, went through horrible, horrible grief. Please know human that I feel for you so much. You do not want to write this in your query letter, though. I know, I know I sound horribly mean. But here's the deal. Agents review thousands of query letters every month, and we read a lot of query letters that start with I wrote this book to save my life because when I was growing up, I didn't have a book like this. I wrote this book because I was dealing with the grief after my mother died and it was heartbreaking. I wrote this book because my grandmother shared this cookie recipe with me and I miss my grandmother every day. What you are telling me inadvertently is you wrote this because you were processing your grief. If your book ever makes it, this is actually a really cool story to share in an author interview, but you never want to lead with that. You don't want to lead with that because you don't want to make me the agent, the business person, the person who's seeking a financial investment in your product to think that this isn't actually your product. You don't want me to think that this is a diary that you are now querying. That is what this paragraph makes it seem. I again, know this sounds harsh, but you are not positioning yourself for success by focusing on that origin story, Especially at the top of your query letter after an agent has fallen in love with your pages. Yes, share all these origin stories, but don't leave with it. I know that a lot of people go, but when I tell my writing group about it, they think it's so cool that I spent 22 years. Your writing group is not reviewing thousands of submissions a month. It's just the reality of life. Okay, so set yourself up for success. Focus on your story. Focus on how the reader is going to have an awesome experience reading it, not your experience writing it. Now, when it comes to the plot paragraph. And this is why I'm not sure this is a memoir, there are two stories here. There's a love story between the protagonist who's the author, who's. Well, I don't know if she's a protagonist. There's the love story between Mudge and Mike, and then there's the unlikely cellmate story between Mike and Bunky. It feels like two different books. Like, if you are writing the story of Bunky and Mike based on the letters that Mike sent you, that is narrative nonfiction, right? If you are writing a memoir about how your husband went to prison, then maybe that is a memoir. I guess I just don't. I don't see how it could be two things. It feels like you're trying to accomplish a lot with this book. It almost looks like two books in one. I wanted to know, is this the story of Mike and Bunky, or is this the story of Mudge and Mike? And I'm not saying that Bunky can't play a supporting role in the story of Mike and Mudge. Of course he can. But we need to center on a big relationship. I also think that, again, the author paragraph, I agree with Bea is the most impressive, creative one we've ever seen. You also don't have to get into that much detail. I love that you went on all these amazing quests. But I would pick two things that you think are most impressive that mean the most to you and lead with that and then maybe have like, a longer author bio on your website or something. Just because I think you need to develop the plot paragraph, and you are going to need more words to do that. So it is not because it's not impressive, because it's super fun. And touring 22 countries with your Belgian dance company, like, come on, that's so cool. Right. I just don't think that we need all these details about your life at this point, especially when the memoir doesn't seem to be tied to any of these things. Right. Like, I think that's a really important point. If you were writing a memoir about being a dancer, then absolutely that would make total sense. But that's not what the memoir is about. The memoir is about your husband going to prison. When a story is once removed, like, my husband went to prison. These are his letters to me, it's really important to find a way to still center it on yourself. If you are a protagonist, if you are the memoir, or you're writing narrative nonfiction, you're just writing a different kind of book. So I wish the author were here so I could ask her a whole bunch of questions and also say, like, you've clearly led a very full life, which is awesome.
- [35:51]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, cece. Okay, we're handing it across to Colleen now.
- [35:54]
Kali
I'm going to start with the author paragraph and work backwards because that was kind of a good point that CeCe ended on. One thing I want to add to what CeCe said was, I completely agree. This is an incredibly impressive author bio, and this person has lived so many lives in one life. One of the main purposes of an author bio also is to establish yourself as an author and as an authority. And when you say, I've done all of these things, to some, it might look like you are not an author or you're not trying to establish yourself as an author, because you do all of these things and could potentially look scattered and not focused. Because how do I, as the person reading this, know that your next journey is going to be an author or you're really committing to your craft? To me, when you list all of these things, it's like, well, how do I know that they're going to focus on the book and not jump back into touring with their Belgian dance company or, you know, going back to work for NASA when I hope that their goal is going to be focusing on this book? So that's just one way to read a very busy author bio. So if you're going to edit this or if I was going to suggest how to edit this. I would probably be focusing on working as a designer and animator for NASA, MTV, and NBA. And their published piece Walk and the seven languages, I would focus on that. I would keep that. And your work on social media. The part that you could probably cut would be the wushu team, the Disciple, and the Belgian dance company probably could go. Just because some of this obviously something to do with the themes in the actual story, which is great, but doesn't actually have as much to do about centering you as a writer in this new era of your career and your life. So, again, that's just one way to read that. Okay, coming back up to the top here. Comps. Orange is the New Black and Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Obviously two iconic mentions here. They are also old mentions. So I really would encourage you to find some more recent comps. These are good comps, but again, they're a bit older. So what I always say is, if you want to go with older comps, one could be older, but the other one has to be new. Newer. You can't go with two older comps, or else you're just dating yourself. Right. Because it's like, we want to show how it's relevant to this market right now. All right, now, the hook here, I agree with Cece, like, everything cece said. So I'm probably just gonna be doubling down on some of the things she said, but I don't really know what is the central story here. And more importantly, what is the reader going to get out of this? Because, again, writing a book for yourself and working through your grief, as Cece kind of explained, is a wonderful thing. But when you're creating a Into the world to service readers, to ask them to spend $30, how is the reader going to be transformed and entertained through this? And when the hook says we're at kung fu insider trading and Mafia ghosts collide in a love story told through daily prison letters like collide how? Transform the reader how? I just don't think this thought or this hook is finished in its entirety, because there has to be a reason that the reader kind of goes into this book expecting one thing, and then they come up the other side. Transformed. Whether it's transformed about, you know, learning more about the prison system or how true love prevails or, you know, certain upbringings don't set people up for certain successes and how all of that kind of comes into being throughout somebody's life. I think there's just so, so many great things that the reader can be taught and learn potentially through the story. Again, I haven't read much of it. There's just no promise here of what's to come. And I think that's what I'm struggling with, because all of this stuff on this page is interesting. I still don't understand how any of this is connected to a central story. I think this is a great narrative nonfiction, and we'll get to the pages in a little bit. I don't think this is a memoir. I think this is more of a narrative nonfiction, because, again, as cece said, it is kind of removed. It isn't this person telling their story. It's them telling the story of somebody else. But if they're going to be the main character, and it is a bit removed, the narrative nonfiction or the memoir plus or however you kind of want to frame it, gives the author an opportunity to do some research and, you know, educate the reader and go on these little kind of rabbit holes of how we can explore some of these themes and these topics without having to box themselves into a memoir, which, you know, has so many, you know, expectations. I think this person wants to explore a lot of themes based on, again, everything that I've read in. In this sample. And I think narrative nonfiction is going to be the way that we're going to get there. Yeah, there's just a lot of listing of things. I really want to know how this all comes together. To me, the entry point of the story is, so this person says, the result is a story of incarceration, devotion, and survival spanning three generations of Italian and Dominican families from Sicily and La Vega to Queens in the Bronx. I think that's the entry point into the story, which to me, again, suggests there's going to be research, there's going to be stories that need to be told as offshoots of the central narrative. But I think you also have to spell it out. Like, is it going to be told through letters, or is what you are going to be doing inspired by the letters, and then you bring it to life in this larger narrative way? That's where I think this person would have the most success in trying to bring this story in this way to life.
- [41:15]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, CeCe, can you please summarize the pages for us and then tell us what you thought of them?
- [41:22]
Cece Lira
Okay, so page one is actually a synopsis, and I will tell every writer out there that if you ever send me a synopsis, I will immediately close my laptop and cover my eyes, and duh. Can be very Dramatic, because I do not like synopses. Like, I don't want spoilers. And so, yeah, there's a one page synopsis. I did not read it. I refuse. And then we have the five pages. So it starts with chapter one, which is. It's not being called a bird's eye prologue, but it is very clearly a bird's eye prologue. That's just about how if a person is cremated, like how cremation works, you know, the heat of cremation and the fact that this is a man that weighs a certain amount and how heavy his ashes are. And when he's cremated, all evidence of wrongdoing also burns away, which meant that he did nothing wrong. And then it goes to. It's not called chapter one, but it feels like chapter one, which is a letter from Mike to Mudge talking about how there was a shakedown at 5:30am in the prison where people were confiscating contraband. It doesn't really seem to be specific to him. He was just sharing what was happening in general, and he's saying that he learned some trade secrets but that he can't share. Then we go to. Again, it's not called a chapter, but it's like a different section called Two Faces and Four Arms, 1966. And we see two babies be born, Baby A and baby B. And, you know, it's clear that it's Mike and Mudge. So, you know, baby A being the boy, baby B being the girl, and how they are going to meet one day, you know, and how they're the same height and they get to exchange clothes and, you know, it ends with a quote from a poet. Love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation and foreshadows, you know, which was also to come. Okay, thoughts on this execution. I will be super honest here. I don't think this is a story for me. It is very experimental. Very, very, very experimental. And when something is that experimental, I've learned that I'm not the right agent for it. So, you know, you still queried the podcast. You chose to address it to me. So I will, of course, share my notes with you. But I do want to preface all my comments by saying you are very welcome to just ignore everything I am saying. Because if your story is experimental, and I don't love experimental, then do you really want my opinion? I think that you need to rewrite this entirely. I think you need a narrative structure. I think you need to decide what kind of story this is, whether it's a memoir, whether it's narrative nonfiction, whatever it is. And I think you need a clear, clear structure. I think you need to go and study the craft of storytelling. I see a lot of beginner mistakes here. Beginner mistake number one, just including a letter, not including potentially the best letter or the most curiosity inducing letter or a letter that sets you up for success. As you know, the first page, I think you're being very lofty is the word. I think in your writing, you know, you're talking about, like, being born. A lot of memoirists, beginner memoirs, I should say, do this. They go, this is my memoir. I'm going to start with being born. No, very few memoirs should begin with being born. Very few successful memoirs begin with being born. There's no focus. You know, like the first chapter is focused on cremation, and then the second chapter is focused on the letter and how it's about the shakedown and people are trying to get rid of their contraband. And then the next chapter is about the two people being born. So one chapter's not building on the other. You know, a really compelling story you have, whether it's a prologue or chapter one, something happening, a disruption, perhaps not the inciting incident, but maybe that makes us go, oh, my God, what's going to happen next? And then chapter two builds on that. And that is true even when chapter two shares backstory. Because the backstory, if it's chosen to go in chapter two, is still building on what happened, either offering contrast or curiosity or some type of tension. And here I don't know what I'm reading. If I'm being super honest, I am reading three different books, three different beginnings.
- [45:29]
Carly Waters
Three different middles of a book.
- [45:30]
Cece Lira
Actually, they don't even feel like beginnings. And I think this writer. Remember when I said when I was analyzing the query letter that sometimes writers could unintentionally give off the idea of. I wrote this for therapy. And as you know, people who are at the end of the day trying to sell a product, that's not a good look. The pages are reading like that. The pages are reading like you're figuring out your emotions, your grief. And, you know, I. I think that a lot of people, your friends, your therapist, your loved ones would go, that's amazing. It's amazing that in order to process these big emotions, you're putting pen to paper and, and letting it all out. But I don't think that it's translating into a sellable project, which is super harsh. I know I would just rewrite this if you want My notes. My notes is, start from the beginning, figure out what your story is, and write it like a novel. You're going to say it's not a novel. A good memoir reads like a novel. If this is a memoir, it should read like a novel. And if this is narrative nonfiction, it should still rely on those nuts and bolts of storytelling that take the reader on a journey that feels very tight and very intentional. You still need all those elements. You need a protagonist, you need a disruption, you need an inciting incident. You need surprise. You need active emotions. Like, you still need all that, regardless of what genre you choose. So that's. That's my take.
- [46:49]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, cece.
- [46:50]
Kali
Okay, Kali, I agree with everything cece said. You know, I definitely think it needs to be rewritten because we just don't have a narrative arc that we're kind of building on, you know? One memoir that I recommend to everybody from, like, an incredible storytelling point of view is Inheritance by Danny Shapiro. It's a really, really great memoir if you're trying to explore some things and figure out where the secrets should come in and how do you reveal to the reader what the protagonist already knows. But do it in a narrative way that feels honest to the genre of memoir while still surprising and delighting the reader in an entertaining way so that there's something to learn, so that there's something to turn the pages for. So I highly recommend Inheritance by Danny Shapiro as something that you can use as potential building blocks to think about, because to me, there just is no sign of a. As a. Of a protagonist. The Wikipedia entry cremation piece was, again, interesting, but felt experimental. I did, like. I think my favorite thing of all of this in terms of the sample writing, was after the kind of explanation of the cremation piece. As CeCe mentioned in her summary, they said, you know, burned away was all the evidence of wrongdoing. And the last line in that section says that meant nobody did nothing wrong. And I just love that because I just wanted to go deeper on that. You know, what is our perception of right and wrong? How does this author feel about what their partner did? I don't know. To me, that was just like, ah, why did we end there? It felt like this was aspiring to be an essay collection almost. But even an essay collection needs to be linked between everything that we're trying to say thematically. And even an essay collection needs an arc of what the character is trying to do. And, yeah, I just felt like we're really scratching the surface on. On what the potential of this could be. And the letters, I mean, I almost think we just need, like, lines of a letter. I don't think we need to copy and paste letters. I think we build out the narrative arc of what the story is going to be, and then through the letters, like you would any research project, you'd find out what quotes from the letters support the narrative that you're trying to build, and then you, you know, include those as resources and quotes to build on through the narrative that you're trying to tell. That's how I would use the letters personally or recommend the letters to be used. Yeah. This just feels like this person sent us three ideas of a beginning, so didn't really feel like there was a commitment to a beginning. And again, makes it feel experimental. And it could just be because this is an, you know, educational platform. They want to know what we think about which of these three could be the best opening potentially. You know. But I think CeCe and I have both illustrated that in order to achieve that ideal opening, we need a full narrative experience here that these pages just aren't servicing yet.
- [49:37]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much to Carly and Cece. One of the things that I love most about this podcast is we will say X, Y, and Z, and suddenly a literary agent who's listening to this will decide that this is the book for them. Immediately reach out, ask for the author's details, and then everyone's off to the races. So remember, what we say is very subjective, even though we are trying really hard to sort of nudge you in the right direction. So if there are any experimental agents out there who love this, give us a call. Okay, everybody, next week we're back with another author interview, and two weeks after that, we're back to Books with Hooks. If you'd like to submit your work, you can go onto the Shit About Writing. Go to the Books With Hooks tab and you can submit it there. Thanks, Carly and cece. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
- [50:59]
Cece Lira
What's up, everyone? This is Cece.
- [51:01]
Carly Waters
If you're a longtime listener of this podcast, then chances are you've heard me talk about the importance of writing on a line level.
- [51:08]
Cece Lira
And of course I have.
- [51:09]
Carly Waters
Because while movies get to rely on lighting, sound, soundtrack, acting and special effects, books rely only on words to make a story come to life.
- [51:19]
Cece Lira
Which is why the writing matters so much.
- [51:22]
Carly Waters
My question to you is, are you confident about your writing? Do you feel like it's at the level it needs to be to stand out in the competitive publishing landscape?
- [51:32]
Cece Lira
If you're like most writers I know.
- [51:34]
Carly Waters
Then you're always looking for ways to improve. Well, what if I told you you that there's a way to supercharge your learning experience by hacking Writing on a Line level? That's right, hacking it. I've developed an original four day course, Hacking Writing on a Line Level that will show you specific techniques to elevate your writing on a word level, sentence level, paragraph level, and scene level. This course begins on December 4th. My favorite part about it is that there are clear, specific examples in every single slide. No fluff, all actionable content. And for the first time ever, we'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your writing on a line learning level, and as long as you're a reader.
- [52:38]
Cece Lira
So if you're ready to take your.
- [52:40]
Carly Waters
Writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. It's a fan favorite. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.