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- [00:01]
Bianca Marais
Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jamie Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website theshitaboutwriting.com go to the Deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.
- [01:24]
Carly Waters
Foreign.
- [01:29]
Bianca Marais
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. We'll be kicking off today's episode with our usual Books with Hooks segment, after which we'll go to today's guest. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hooks segment. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Carly, will you kick us off with the first query?
- [02:00]
Carly Waters
Dear Carly, I'm submitting my novel redacted, a dual timeline upmarket novel primarily set in 1940s Hollywood, which is complete at 105,000 words and would appeal to readers of Amortol's A Table for Two and Lindsay Lynch's Do Tell and would be of interest to people who enjoy explorations of marginalized people in historical settings. The book begins with Jeremy Mackenzie, a documentary maker in the late 1970s, a time when Hollywood studio system is truly dead and slasher films are beginning to make their mark. Called a hack by some critics, his work focuses on the salacious stories of Hollywood scandals. Not having broken past local notoriety, Jeremy's financial backer is giving him one last chance before pulling funding. Jeremy pitches an entry about Robert Gray, the incarcerated star convicted of murdering his wife. The equally famous actress married Madeline Lacroix. The caveat? Jeremy must obtain Robert's confession, but Robert refuses to focus just on Madeline's death and insists on telling the full story. The secret he's hidden of his and Madeline's sexualities, the lavender marriage they entered into for survival, their struggle to top the Hollywood food chain and navigating a rigged system, blackmail and a lawsuit along the way, all of which builds to Madeline's murder. As the interview progresses and Jeremy becomes invested in the bigger story, he begins doubting Robert's guilt and discovered his own connection to Robert and Madeleine. The novel is both my love letter to the films and actors of old Hollywood and a critique of the abuses wrought by the studio system explored in the lens of Robert and Madeline. Regarding myself I'm a 36 year old attorney and reside in Houston, Texas with my husband and two dogs. One our anxiety riddled Finley and the other a strong willed diva named Ella. I graduated from Texas A and M with an English degree and then Baylor Law School for my jd. I hope this to be the first of many works and I'm currently working on a new novel about the murder of a Houston oil company CEO. I'm excited about the possibility of being able to share the story with others and very much appreciate your consideration of my book. Please let me know if you'd like additional pages and or a complete synopsis. Sincerely, Jason Raynal I know you all typically don't like prologues, but I hope you don't hate mine.
- [04:07]
Bianca Marais
Thank you Carly. Jason, we do not hate prologues, we hate bad prologues. There is a difference and I feel like we have to keep making that distinction. Right? Lots of high stakes there, so I'm loving how the stakes have been set up so clearly in this query letter. So Carly, how many words there and what was your take on it?
- [04:25]
Carly Waters
All right, so this one clocked in at 401 words, so I really liked this. You know, I mean there's always work to be done, but I think it's a really interesting setting. Like Bianca said, I think the stakes are really high and let's get into some of the details here. So I don't know your title so obviously can't comment on it. It's redacted so no problem there. But yeah, I can't provide feedback there. Okay, so let's talk about the settings. So it says 1940s Hollywood in the opening paragraph and then in the next paragraph it says 1970s. So I'm a little bit confused because it's primarily set in the 90s and then we opened with 1970s. Therefore to me it sounds like maybe more of it is in the 70s. So I definitely wasn't clear on that. So I think that we have to figure out a way to be a little bit more clear. Because if this is primarily set 1940s, does this mean we're kind of going back into Robert and Madeleine's point of view? Because then if we are, then I would need the information about, like, the additional POVs, because it says dual timeline. So, anyway, all seems very interesting, but maybe just a little bit more clarity on what is happening in each of the timelines or something like that could be a little bit more useful to me. Okay, so the hook, or what seems to be in the place of the hook, would be interest to people who enjoy explorations of marginalized people in historical settings. I think this is super interesting, but can't we have a plotty hook do the job of telling us this? Then we could kind of get at all of this, but use it as a hook instead of just kind of factual information there. Throughout this pitch, the author is capitalizing everybody's names. And I know this is a technique that is done in synopses, but in query letters, we don't need this. So I flagged this. Anybody who reads our notes in the substack will be able to see it. But just a reminder to everybody listening, we don't need to use those synopsis techniques in the query letter itself. All right, so I think it's really clear here what the stakes are, right? This person wants to be a filmmaker, they need the funding, and their boss says, hey, in order to get this funding, you need to get the confession. I think we have a very clear XYZ there, but I don't quite understand why Jeremy wants to do this career so badly. That part's not really clear to me. I know it in terms of he's an artist and a filmmaker, and, like, that's a passion, and there's some drive there. But I'm just wondering if we get at a little bit of the why, and later on we find out a little bit more about, you know, his parents working in the industry. So maybe there could be something there in terms of kind of leading the reader to understand a little bit more about that passion within him and where that passion comes from. I think that could be useful. Okay, and then in terms of the. The juicy part, we're kind of bearing the lead a little bit, right? Which is in terms of the sexuality secrets and the lavender marriage and everything in there. And there is one of those lists which I know Cece is going to point Out. It's like, this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens. Right. The rigged system, the blackmail, the lawsuit. Right. Like, we are listing these plot points, but in my opinion, I think you did it in a good way. Because you say all of which builds to Madeline's murder. Right. Like, we understand what we're getting at here, and so we understand that it's a rigged system. We know what blackmail is, and, you know, the lawsuit. Maybe we could get into the specifics about the lawsuit. So that doesn't sound as vague, but we know kind of what we're leading to, which is Madeline's murder. I do worry a little bit about the framing of our filmmaker says they, you know, refuses to. To focus on Madeline's death and insists on telling the full story. It sounds a little bit like we're dismissive of the misogyny element here, that potentially she was killed for being a woman. So I know we're going super deep here, and I think we're going to get into a lot more layeredness in terms of, you know, the sexuality and potentially Robert's actually not the one that killed her and all of this. So I think we're getting there, which is great. I would just be careful about that framing of being like, let's just brush off the fact that she was potentially killed for being a woman or something like that. So I think that line, Robert refuses to just focus on Madeline's death maybe. Maybe could use a little bit of finessing. That would really be my only kind of content note, but other than that, I think it's really strong. I think the author bio is really strong. Yeah, I think you did a great job.
- [08:32]
Bianca Marais
Awesome, Carly. Thank you. Cece, handing it across to you, building.
- [08:36]
Cece Lira
Off what Carly said, maybe the line could read, but Robert insists on telling the full story leading to Madeline's death. That would be a relatively quick fix that would address the potential framing issue if that critique resonates with you. I hadn't thought about it when I first read it, but now that Carly said it, I think it sounds really smart. And you want to avoid any type of framing that could come across as insensitive or just, you know, misogynistic. And why not? You know, why not cover your bases? I really like that the major dramatic question is so juicy, you know, the fact that he begins doubting the guilt and discovers his own connection. I do wonder when in the story does this happen? Because right now it's framed as the climax, which would make me think it happens, you know, after the Halfway mark or at the halfway mark. But I imagine that it must happen a little sooner because is this the story of him, like proving this person's innocence or going on that journey? So I'm confused about the structure. It's not in a deal breaker way because like, this is a query letter that if I had gotten it, I would have been like, this sounds great, sounds so juicy. Let me now read the pages. You know, like it's doing the job. This is really good. I just feel like that major dramatic question happens early in the story. Then I think we need a little bit more and we might need to know a little bit more in terms of the connection to Robert and Madeline and this whole like guilt thing. Like, what is the connection? You don't have to give away the spoilers. Please don't give away spoilers. But maybe knowing a little bit more, is this going to lead to him being in a situation where he has to pick. Is he gonna be in front of at a crossroads and he's gonna have to be like, I either go A or I go B. So yeah, it's a really good Gradler qcc.
- [10:17]
Bianca Marais
Okay, so Carly, you're going to give us a summary of the pages. And now I really can't wait to hear this prologue and your thoughts on it.
- [10:24]
Carly Waters
All right, as mentioned, we start with the prologue. This is Jeremy 1970. So we have our timestamp. So Jeremy is sitting in an auction. And it's an auction for like costumes and different kind of paraphernalia, props from the MGM backlot. Seems like because the studio system is dead, you know, they're trying to sell off a bunch of stuff to make some money and potentially there's some debts to pay. We get the sense that he is with his parents and we know that they worked in the industry as well. And so they're all kind of sitting there at the auction. Immediately what is held up is Madeline Lacroix's showgirl costume from these club murders, what the movie is called. And it says worn just days before her husband and co star Robert Gray killed her. So we get the sense that potentially the child, because he's with his parents and he kind of says his ears perk up. And so he starts thinking about the murder of this woman in the costume and kind of what's happening here. And then before they started the auction, that's where the prologue ends. And then we start with chapter one. We have moved to Jeremy in 1978, so eight years later, and we are right in what we are told in the query letter will happen, which is he is pitching his newest entry in his documentary series. So he is talking directly to the man, the financer, kind of trying to give the pitch. And then the financer actually says, I worked at the studio when all of this happened. And we get the sense that maybe he knows something or more than he's letting on, but he's kind of listening to the pitch, and maybe some of this is familiar to him. Then the thing that he was surprised about was that this man is actually still alive in prison. And so he says, okay, go up to see him. You know, maybe talk to him. See if you get an interview. We know that this. This incarcerated character doesn't really give interviews, but, you know, that's kind of the plan. And he says, you know, I won't fund this until you get this interview. And we learn a little bit about, you know, him being kind of a middling, successful director, documentary maker, and he needs this to kind of make a break, to get out of the unfortunate time slot that he's in and hopefully make it big. So that's everything that happens.
- [12:31]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly. I always appreciate when an author is able to establish the stakes very early on in the pages, because that's something we see not happening. Not happening as often as it should. Okay, so what was your take on the prologue? Were they starting in the right place with that?
- [12:48]
Carly Waters
You know, I think that's a huge question mark, because, again, we only. We have such limited pages, so it is hard for me to say whether we are definitely starting in the right place or not. I was very impressed with how much just information I got in these pages, and it was very establishing in a great way, because all of a sudden, we. We have our basis of understanding, and we know, like, after these five pages that the story is really gonna take off. So I think that was absolutely well done. I do feel like the risk of that is now that we kind of. We know a lot in terms of things being on the nose a little bit. And I say that in the sense of the prologue was at the auction house. And I don't know, it just seemed very on the nose. And I don't know if it's just my taste, but it definitely felt like we're dropped, like, right in the scene where they are auctioning off this specific item that is then going to set us off. And then page and a half later, all of a sudden, we're in the moment where he's pitching it. And so as a reader, that's like 30 second whipl of eight years going by. We know for the character, that's eight years of their life. And who knows how much they have thought about it in those intermittent years. Maybe they've. Maybe they thought about it a lot, maybe they haven't. But from a reader's perspective, I'm like, we just got that information, so we're doubling down on a lot here. There's not a lot left to the imagination. And that could be very intentional, again, so that we kind of get off to the races in terms of what's going to surprise us later in the story. But it felt very like handing me all the information I need on a silver platter in terms of not making me, the reader, do a lot of work. So, again, could be intentional, could not be intentional. I do feel like the prologue could be a little bit more insane. And what I mean by that is more just, you know, the setting, right? What does it smell like? What did it feel like? What did it sound like? It sounded like this potentially was a very transformative moment for him in terms of a coming of age moment or something like that. I think there's. There's a lot to be discovered there if we want to keep that prologue. And I'm not. I don't hate it. I'm not completely against it, but I think it has a lot more work to do. I just don't feel like it was flexing all of the muscles that it could be if we need to keep it there. And then in terms of the chapter one, I really like that we kind of just get right into it. I think it makes a lot of sense. And I think, as I said, it sets us up to. As soon as these pages are done, you know, page six, you know, we're off, and he's trying to interview this character. It felt, as I said, a little bit on the nose. But sometimes when things are on the nose, that's good because this could be the type of read that people want things right in front of them and they maybe don't want to have to work hard to discover what's behind the scene. And they're gonna cut. It's more of like a Pacey read in. In a really good way. So I can see the pros and cons of both methods here. And I think this is especially tricky because I only have five pages. I would be really curious about when we are hit with a surprise, because so far, nothing in the. In these pages are surprising to me. It's interesting, but nothing is Surprising to me because all of this we learned in the query letter, which the author, sorry, the readers would have learned from the jacket copy. So we're still kind of in setup mode here. So I definitely think we. There's an opportunity for something to be surprising. Potentially. It could be the motivation, right? As I said, what is what. What does he want out of this in terms of his career? Is it to prove something to his parents? Or is there something much more surprising that could be at stake here? Which again, I think we're getting to with the potential secrets of how he's connected or finds out that he's connected to the storyline. But yeah, there's, there's a, there's a lot more, I think that's humming under the surface here that we're just not able to explore in five pages.
- [16:16]
Unknown
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- [17:36]
Carly Waters
And there's amazing value.
- [17:37]
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- [18:13]
Bianca Marais
Okay, Carly, thank you, Cece, handing it across to you. And by the way, I know all the writers listening now are like, see, this is why you should request more than five pages. We can't convey everything in five pages. So right as I'm hearing you, I'm hearing those thoughts coming through the wires.
- [18:29]
Cece Lira
Okay, cc, the problem is that no one is going to read further unless the first paragraph grabs you. You don't even get five pages. I'm sorry to tell people, you get one paragraph. You don't. You get word, people. It is hard. It's competitive out there. I don't make the rules. We are sellers in a buyer's market. I wish we weren't. I wish people were like, oh, my God, we don't have enough books. More books, please. We have all the money to give to all the authors. That is not reality. Okay, so we have two agents here in the show. One of the agents is very level headed and diplomatic and smart in her critiques. The other one is not. That's mean. The other one. This prologue is not working. To nix this prologue, okay? All it's doing is relaying factual information. This man is at an auction where this costume is like, oh, my God, this is the big ticket item. And then, you know, he finds out that this woman was murdered. And then he goes, oh, my ears perked up. I'd heard of, of these actors, I'd seen some of their movies, but I didn't know she was murdered. And then he closes his eyes and he imagines, you know, her on screen and wonders, how did this man do it? This is not realistic. This is not compelling. This is. This is not working. You are going to cut this prologue, okay? And you're going to write a different prologue. Because if you're saying it's prologues, that's fine. Prologues can work. But not this prologue. It's not working. The only purpose of this prologue is to convey information that the jacket copy is going to convey. We don't need it. Nix the prologue, okay? Now if you insist on keeping the prologue. I really love the prologue, cc, I'm not changing it. Fine, then please go to the notes that I've given You and our Substack supporters will see it. I've highlighted all the purely factual information you are conveying, and I've shown you how you are not grounding it in his unique perspective. If you want to make me believe that this man is having such a big moment at this auction watching a costume, then you're going to have to give me deeper access into his psyche and tie it to his own life. Okay, so it's not to Carly's great point, the nose, because it is on the nose right now, and that is a problem. So, again, either revise or remove. And chapter one, you have some great lines. In chapter one, there's a part where he's in the office and he's noticing the decoration of the office, and there's a line that reads, I imagine his wife decorated the office to conform with her idea of upscale masculinity. Notice how he's projecting. It's pure conjecture. He has no idea whether his wife even decorated the office. He's assuming. He's projecting. He's imagining. Great. I want more of that. I want more access into his psyche in a way that tells me who he is as a person and develops him as a protagonist before developing the costume or the murder or anything else. Because the story is about him. Even though the plot is about the murder, the story is about the protagonist. That is simply how stories work. There are other lines, too, where you did this, and I highlighted them, and I went, this is amazing. This is great. Can we get more? And I prompted you with questions that will hopefully help you develop it. But I do want to say to all listeners, my issue is not with prologues. I can list dozens, hundreds of books where prologues are used, and the prologues are fantastic. The issue is when you're using prologue to fix something that your first chapter isn't doing, and that is not going to work, your prologue needs to be as spectacular as your first chapter. So good luck. I know we're giving you a lot, but again, sellers and buyers market people. We don't control reality.
- [21:55]
Bianca Marais
And there you have it, the Pollyanna esque musings of cece. Thank you so much for that. Right, we are now going into our second query for the day, and CeCe is going to read that to us.
- [22:09]
Cece Lira
Dear Cece Lira, I'm excited to share my debut novel, Uprooted Word. Work of women's fiction that explores migration, identity and personal courage. Uprooted is a cross between Chibondo Onuzo's Son Ofucas and Imbolo Mbui's How Beautiful We Were. Given your passion for narratives that delve into complex cultural identities and human resilience, I believe Uprooted would be a compelling fit for your list. Hannah, a fiercely independent 34 year old, is blindsided by an unexpected pregnancy while struggling to make ends meet in Philadelphia. Her world further unravels when her husband inherits a house in rural Kenya and insists they move back. The move promises an escape from their financial struggles, but in Kenya, Hana is thrust into a world that challenges her understanding of race, culture and belonging. As she grapples with her new environment and the impending responsibilities of motherhood, memories of her own mother's abandonment haunt her, and she feels strapped between the woman she used to be and the mother she fears. Becoming desperate for purpose, she teams up with two local women to create a Maasai history program, unwittingly stirring tensions in a community still scarred by colonialism. When a battle breaks out over the forest between local developers and conservationists, Hannah must choose where her loyalties lie. And when tragedy strikes, shattering her tenuous sense of home, she must decide if she can find the strength to fight for justice not only for herself, but for the community she's come to care about. Based in rural Kenya, I have nearly two decades of experience on the non profit sector focusing on economic and climate justice. My short story Oasis in the Obsolescence was published in Free Spirit collection about the environment. I hold a master's degree in International affairs from Columbia University and was accepted into the Hurston Wright Foundation Summer Workshop. I am also a member of the Women's Fiction Writing association and the Writing Mastery Academy. I am enclosing the first five pages for your consideration. Sincerely redacted.
- [24:16]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Cece. Okay, what was the word count there and what was your take on that?
- [24:20]
Cece Lira
The author included the word count, which was very helpful. So this one came in at 329 words. Okay, from the very top, the title is in all caps and italics. I recommend removing italics. Keep it only in all caps and every time you mention the title, make sure it's in all caps. Only the first mention is currently in all caps. And for anyone wondering why I'm being so pedantic is because readability really helps when reviewing multiple query letters at the same time. Please be kind to our poor agent Eyes when you're mentioning titles of your comp titles, do the same either italic or all caps just because. Again, readability matters. Okay, now for my favorite part of any query letter, the plot paragraph. The very first paragraph Says that her husband inherits a house and insists on moving back. But I'm not clear on whether that's moving back for both of them or just for him. Like, is she also from Kenya? Is he the only one who's from Kenya? Like, is it a couple situation or just him?
- [25:25]
Carly Waters
Just.
- [25:25]
Cece Lira
I guess that was important context that I wanted to know. Unless it's intentional, that we don't know. But if it's not intentional, fix it. It's a very small thing. There's two lines where it's like, her world. Like, her world further unravels and then thrust into a world. I would just change one of the references to world. It just helps with readability, but it's really not a big deal. I did notice after reading the second paragraph that all the plot points are either very big picture, so race, culture, belonging, or very internal memories of her own mother. A query letters plot paragraph should focus on external plot. Test I run in my own head is always, could I shoot the movie trailer for this? You know, assuming books had trailers, could I do it? And in this case, I can't because there aren't enough specific plot paragraphs. Because I can't shoot grapples with new environment. I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what memories of her own mother haunting her look like, because that's too internal. And I don't know what challenges of race, culture, and belonging look like. And so I couldn't shoot that trailer. And that's a really important thing to be able to do. So now for the last plot paragraph. We're still falling into the this is way too big picture trap. She's desperate for purpose, so you're doing a great job of establishing her interiority. She's creating a history program, and then that unwittingly stirs tensions in a community still scarred by colonialism. What does that mean? Like, if I have to shoot this as a scene, what does it look like? I don't know. And I really must know what it looks like, or else I'm only having, like, vibes. And I don't want just vibes. I also want, like, specific plot. There's also a reference to a battle breaking out. Like, what kind of battle? You know, like, what does that look like? Specifically? I really like major dramatic questions where the protagonist must choose. And here we have, quote, hannah must choose where her loyalties lie. End quote. That's great, because, again, a choice is something that is very relatable, easy to understand, very compelling, but because the Previous plot points were so big picture. I'm not clear on what that choice is specifically like. I get that she's choosing between loyalties, but I don't know what each loyalty looks like, and I really wanted to know. And so, to everyone listening, I encourage you to take a look at your query letter and to be honest with yourself. Like, if a person who had no idea what your story was about, other than what they're getting from the query letter had to shoot the movie trailer for your story, could they do it based on your query letter? And if they can, great. And if you feel like they can't, then maybe it's time to revise. I also want to add that the author paragraph was really impressive, so great job.
- [28:13]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, cece. Carly, handing it across to you.
- [28:16]
Carly Waters
All right, so I think my big question with this one is there's something unfortunately, very timeless about this. I say unfortunately because colonialism is a big scar, right? And, you know, something that continues on, but I want to know whether it's contemporary or not and what, like, in what ways? Because I think you're getting at some really important things here around, you know, the economic and climate justice kind of piece of this. Like, I just. I think everything you're tackling in terms of these themes is super interesting, but because you're so vague in terms of what's actually happening in the book, you know, an example of something being vague is when tragedy strikes. Tragedy could mean anything. We have no idea what this tragedy is. And so if I can't ground this in something that either is contemporary or is historical, then I have no. I literally have no idea what's happening in this book. And I mean that in the nicest way, because I think that I would like what was happening in this book if I could understand what was happening in this book. But I don't know. I don't know if this is contemporary. I don't know if this is historical. I don't know what. And that matters a lot in terms of the stakes and how that impacts herself as a character as well as the work that she's doing for the local people. So I think every intention is good in this query letter, but the fact that I can't place this in time is a bit concerning to me as the reader and the agent that obviously has to go and sell this. So I think there's just a lot of opportunities here to kind of really get much more specific about what's happening in the book. And please, please tell me if this is contemporary. Or historical.
- [29:47]
Bianca Marais
Awesome, Carly. Thank you. Okay, Cece, we're going now to you to summarize. The opening pages didn't even occur to.
- [29:53]
Cece Lira
Me that it could be historical. So now, yes, like, thank you, Carly, for pointing that out. What if it is? We have no clue. Okay, so the protagonist is looking at homes she can't afford online. She gets a text from Kate from work and thinks back to how, when she applied for the job, she was hoping to travel a lot, but it never happened. Her husband texts. He had invited her to go out. She said no. She falls asleep and wakes up to her husband kissing her gently. At midnight, he sees a letter which is a notice about the rent going up. But she lies to him and says it's something else, and they chat.
- [30:25]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Cece. Based on those pages, is it clear that it's contemporary? Because I guess we started getting text messages how many years ago? So is it clear, then, the timeline?
- [30:36]
Cece Lira
It's definitely clear that we're not talking, like, old historical, but it could be 10 years ago and for. For publishing. These things matter. I. I do think, though, that if you fix the plot issues in the query letter, we'll know that it's contemporary. I don't think you need to put the date necessarily. You can if you want to, but it. The issue is really, we have no idea what the plot is. We only know vibes. But. Okay, so my take on the pages, I'm going to start with the micro, and then I'm going to move on to the macro. She is searching for more homes that they can't afford online. What does she get out of this search? How does she feel about this habit of hers? Does she see it as healthy escapism, as manifestation? Is she one of those people who's like, if I visualize my dream life, it'll happen? Does she annoy herself with her lack of practicality, thinking, maybe she shouldn't be spending her time looking at homes that she can't afford, but rather finding a home she can, since they will have to move. She may be hearing her mom's voice in her head calling her a dreamer, and she's thinking, you know, my mom's so right. I really am a dreamer. I have no sense of pragmatism. It's something else. That's a micro example. Another micro example. She gets a text from her husband, and we have information that the husband had invited her to go out, but that he knew she would say no. Does this mean that she saw his invitation as, like, an empty invitation? Like a silent gesture? Or does she interpret the fact that he knew she would say no and he still asked as the. As him being really optimistic and him being someone who doesn't give up on her and wants her to be social or something else. These are two micro examples that I hope will illustrate a macro note which is you are focusing on facts. You are relaying factual information to me, the reader. I am very clear on everyone that's present in these pages. I know who Kate is, I know who the husband is. I know about her job. Like I am very clear, clear on what is happening. Which is great when we choose a point of view for a novel. What you're doing is you are choosing a psyche through which everything that happens will be processed through. The job of a point of view isn't to function as lenses in a camera. It's to function as a unique, biased, partial viewpoint. And when things happen to people, they filter that through their own life experiences. And we're not getting that here. We are getting very clear factual information, but not any interpretation of any kind. You know, she is another example. She took this job knowing, not knowing, but counting on the fact that she would travel a lot. But no travel has happened and it's been years and so that information has been established. Great. How does she see that information? Is it a story of my life? Nothing that I want ever happens. I should have known. Or is it a. I still believe it's going to happen. I just need to prove myself. Or is it something else? Right? Like again, what kind of person is she? How does she process these things that are happening to her? I love that she's lying to the husband about the notice. Sounds really bad, right? I love that she's lying to her husband, but I do, because it's juicy and interesting and curiosity inducing. But I want to know why this is happening. I want glimpses. I don't want the full picture. That's impossible. We don't have enough time for that. But I want glimpses. I want a line that maybe reads, he can't handle it. You know, I married him knowing he could never handle these things. Knowing that the burden was would always fall on me. Or maybe something like, it's my turn now to carry this burden. He has done so much for our marriage in terms of this in the past. Maybe something else again, I don't know because I don't know your character. But I will only connect to this human. My brain is only going to fuse to this person's brain if I am getting Deep, deep psychological acuity. And that is something that requires a lot of interiority and a lot of emotionality. It requires moving beyond the factual. I see. I see this happening all the time. I see authors who are so great at conveying factual information when I want to go beyond that, because it's a story, you know, it's a story, and so that's really, really important. As a final note, I want to say that we have two curiosity seeds here that are masterfully done. So it's about her mother, and it's about her mother's role in her life. And the first one's at the very top of the pages, and the second one's at the very end, and they're very different. And so they have. They're not frustrating. Just the opposite. Right. Like, the second curiosity scene made me even more curious. And so to all our substack supporters, you will be able to see how a very talented author planted these two seeds in a way that elevated the pages and just made me really want to know more about her relationship with her mom. So great job.
- [35:35]
Bianca Marais
Hi. Pray. It's from Cece, who loves curiosity seeds, and if you can do that, you've done a good job. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [35:43]
Carly Waters
I'll be honest with you. These pages didn't grab me, and I'm gonna explain why. I feel like one of my main hurdles and hiccups with a lot of women's fiction is the internal ness of it all. And I think with this one, not only is it kind of internal, there's no sense of movement. And I think one of the reasons I liked the other opening pages from this segment was that there's just. There's a lot of body movement. You know, he was in an auction, and then he's, like, pitching his boss. And I think this one, we're just sitting and we're in our house, and it's very passive, in my opinion, in terms of, you know, she's getting the messages or the emails, and then the husband comes home. She's not going out and doing anything, and she's just kind of sitting there, and life is happening to her in a way. And I know there is a lot kind of going on in terms of everything that is going on in her brain. And a woman's brain is very busy. And I know that all too well. But the physicalness of her lack of movement, I think, is what I found just a little bit stagnant in terms of my point of view. And I love opening pages when there is movement. It could be even just, you know, from room to room or going outside to get something or I don't know. There's just, to me, it was just a little bit still. There's a little bit of a stillness to it.
- [36:50]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, and for writers, that's something that's easily fixable. Again, imagine the film of the scene taking place. If your character is sitting there and they just filming the character, that film cannot get into the character's mind. And so it's a very stagnant scene of someone just standing there or sitting there. So always think about if it was going to be adapted into a film, how would they visually make this come alive and try and bring that to the page as well. And sometimes it's pretty easy fixes. And this is something I'm guilty of. And my beta readers often say to me, there isn't movement here because I'm so in the character's head that I've forgotten about the movement. So quite easily fixable there, right? Carly and cece, thank you so much, as per usual for your incredible insights. Next week we will have our author interview and the week after that it's back to another Books with Hooks if you want to submit your pages, go to the shitaboutwriting.com and look for the Books with Hooks page.
- [37:49]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted.
- [37:51]
Unknown
Program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written.
- [38:00]
Carly Waters
Notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents.
- [38:04]
Unknown
At PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by.
- [38:09]
Carly Waters
Carly and Cece on this podcast are.
- [38:11]
Unknown
Solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that.
- [38:19]
Carly Waters
You can support us as a show.
- [38:20]
Unknown
Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers.
- [38:26]
Carly Waters
As possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter.
- [38:29]
Unknown
Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more.
- [38:35]
Carly Waters
You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting.substack.com.
- [38:42]
Bianca Marais
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February. It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Mame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.