← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Problem with the Blank Canvas Protagonist
00:44:13
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:01]
Cece Leera
Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast, then you know that one of my most common notes on the Books with Hooks segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are the ones that make readers feel. But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill of writing emotion really well, but also mastering writing relationships effectively, since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections. The best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing, this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the option of submitting a scene from their work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March and if you were there, you know it was a smashing success. If you'd like to know more, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.
- [01:39]
Bianca Murray
It's Beta Reader Matchup time again, where you can be matched up with those writing in the same genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 4th of May, with the matchup emails going out on the 5th of May because my new novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, pubs in early June and will be keeping me very busy. This will be the last matchup until the fall. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matchups will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors and hopefully they'll do the same when the time comes for you to register. For more information, head to Biancamurrae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.
- [02:31]
Carly Waters
Foreign.
- [02:37]
Bianca Murray
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Leera from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Another books with hooks. Before we dive in, we just don't want to say how much we're looking forward to next month's podcast gathering for the launch of A Most Puzz Murder. We have a lot of literary agents and authors coming out in support of the event as VIP guests, which is going to be really amazing. And of course this is the first time the three hosts of the podcast will be getting together in real life to do an event, so we are super excited about that as well. Plus we have so many of you already confirmed who are flying out from all all over the place. We've got some of you flying out from Seattle and a bit closer to Toronto, which is just amazing because it's going to be a community literary love fest. Plus we want to mention that we hosting a flash fiction writing contest for those who will be there on the night, as well as a contest for the best query package. The winners of that will be called up on stage that night, given their awards and they will be published in our newsletter and welcomed onto the podcast. And we're also doing a few draws for manuscript evaluations and critiques. You don't want to miss this. It's the 9th of June, 6 to 10pm The Young People's Theater in Toronto and if you plan to be there, please do a reel for us and tag us saying why you're looking forward to being there and who you're hoping to see there. And we will boost that and share it on our socials so that our community can all find each other. Tickets are available on my website, Biancamarae.com look for the launch Event tab. Right. So following that, there's nothing left to do except dive right in. Cece, will you read us your first query?
- [04:39]
Cece Leera
I will. While I dream of seeing all those fun reels, I can't wait to be tagged and seeing all those fun reels. Thank you everyone in advance for sharing. Okay, here we go. Dear Cece, Carly and Bianca, I first encountered your podcast two years ago when I was working on the northwest coast of Vancouver island, and since then it has been such an integral part of my writing journey. Before you all were filling my ears with tips and strategies, I had no idea how to navigate the world of publishing. Thank you for all you do to support emerging writers like myself. I'm querying you, cece, with my debut novel, the South Shore, because of your interest in UpMarket Literary fiction, LGBTQ2S voices and dysfunctional family stories. The south shore is a 110,000 word coming of age novel. That will entice readers who enjoyed the heartbreaking portrait of a mother son relationship in Douglas Stewart's Shuggie Bain and fans of queer coming of age stories like Paul Mendes. Rainbow Milk Growing up in the isolated coastal community of Lewisport, Nova Scotia in the 1990s is difficult for seven year old Terry and his single mother Lena. Sent to a babysitter when Lena secures a new job, Terry experiences life on the affluent side of town and discovers that he is different in ways he can't yet name. While Lena tries her best to provide for Terry, the specter of domestic violence trauma haunts her and a series of unpredictable boyfriends keep Terry on edge. A surprise visit from Terry's estranged older brother offers a glimmer of boyhood unmarred by rural poverty. But Terry soon finds he must navigate toxic masculinities alone. When Lena is diagnosed with an unexpected illness, Terry's efforts to fit in as a normal teenager backfire and an act of homophobic violence sends both Terry and his mother. After a secret romance blooms with a black Nova Scotian boy from down the shore, Terry wonders if another future might be possible for him. The economic instability of the region threatens Lena's longest lasting job and the dream Terry has of harboring of leaving Lewis Ford for college in the city. Ultimately, Terry must choose between sticking by his flawed mother or leaving to find the belonging he craves. As a former queer kid from the rural Maritimes, I've always been interested in in the stories queer and trans people tell. My stories have been shortlisted by the Malahat Review and long listed by the New Quarterly and I attended the Kenyan Review 2024 Summer Workshop. I host a bi weekly writing group for queer and trans writers through the Federation of BC Writers. I've attached the first five pages of the South Shore for your consideration. Sincerely, F.A. mcPherson he they awesome CeCe.
- [07:26]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. Wow, that's an impressive bio. What did you think of the rest of the query letter?
- [07:32]
Cece Leera
Definitely impressive bio and the author was so thoughtful because he included the word count for us. So at the very end he wrote that this is 126 words long if you count the first paragraph in which he's addressing the podcast and 350 words long if you don't. So thank you for that. Okay, so from the very top, thank you for your kind words. It's super appreciated. Honestly, one of the most meaningful things about doing this podcast is hearing how people feel about like we've helped them. It really is the intention behind everything we do and we we really Appreciate hearing that. In terms of the first official paragraph, I should say you're referring to this as upmarket literary fiction. And I'm like, is it literary fiction or is it upmarket? I think you have to pick one or the other. And based on your pages, I do have an opinion. But I also have so many notes for you that I don't know what this will end up becoming. But I think it's important to pick one. Let's focus on the plot paragraph, which I think all our listeners know is always the center of my notes. So one thing I'd like to talk about here is the difference between story setup and plot. So story setup is everything that happened before the story began, everything that happened to your protagonist before page one. And then plot points start with the inciting incident, and then plot escalation, reaching the climax, resolution, etc. It's really important in a query letter to differentiate between the two. You don't want to spend more than a sentence on the plot, on the story setup. You just don't want to. And here there's some lines that gave me pause and made me think, is this story set up or is this, like, new plot that's being introduced? An example is the line that reads, while Lena tries her best to provide for Terry, the specter of domestic violence trauma haunts her, and a series of unpredictable boyfriends keep Terry on edge. Has this been happening? And it continues happening. Like, is it part of his, you know, pre page one story? Or is it a new plot? And I just wasn't sure. I also had trouble identifying the story beats again in a query letter. Ideally, literary agents should be able to go, okay, this is the protagonist. This is the inciting incident. This is how the plot escalates further. Maybe one or two points on that, and this is the climax. I'm not clear on what the inciting incident is. I have a few options. Like, I'm not entirely sure, is it when the brother comes back, is it, you know, if his mom starts dating after the story starts, is it that? Because that was painted more in a sweeping way as opposed to a plot point way. So I don't know, is it the act of homophobic violence? Because that I thought might be the climax. But then at the same time, the query ends with a choice he has to make. So maybe that's the climax, I guess. As you can probably see, I'm having trouble identifying the story beats. I suspect it's because you're going back and forth between story setup and plot points. It Might not be that. It might be something else. And this is one of those situations where, as usual, I really wish you were here so I could ask you these questions. But, hey, if you're listening to this and you want to reach out on Instagram, I'm available. I also think that in terms of big picture notes on the plot paragraph, there's not a lot of. I don't want to say specificity because I say that too much. There are too many sentences that feel like plot vibes instead of plot points. So things like a series of unpredictable boyfriends keep Terry on edge. Feels like vibes, you know, what does that look like? Exactly. If that's a plot point, how would I shoot the movie trailer version of that? Another example is Terry must navigate toxic masculinities alone. Vibes. What does that mean? Even the act of homophobic violence? Like, I don't need to know what the act is, but the fact that you wrote send them reeling. What does send them reeling mean? Like, I need to know if it's part of the plot. Pre climax, I need to know. So I do think there's a lot of work to be done in terms of the plot, and it's interesting because once we get to the pages, I have a vision that I want to share with you that I think will help you with the query letter as well.
- [11:34]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, we're now handing it across to Kali.
- [11:38]
Carly Waters
All right. Yeah. I also love the author bio. It seems like you are really trying to master your craft, which I can totally appreciate, so thank you so much. So the title, I felt like it's a good title, but probably a common title. I didn't kind of go through and Google it and check for SEO, but South Shore, it could kind of mean anything. Honestly, to me, it sounds a little beach ready. Your book is coming off a bit more literary. Assisi said you're kind of toeing the line about market literary. I think it's probably literary, but we can kind of get into that when we are discussing the pages. So Shuggie Bane is a pretty ambitious comp. I actually think it works here to kind of frame what you're trying to do. So I don't think it's bad, but I think you probably knew it was ambitious when you put it in there. So I'm also doubling down just to recognize that potentially, you know, as I said, structurally, thematically, it probably seems like it is the right comp, but an ambitious one. So, you know, that might be flagged for. For some agents There. Ok. Okay. So now the body paragraph. My main note is just. It reads like a synopsis. One of the issues with a book that is, quote, unquote, potentially quiet, or however you want to frame it, is that there's just this kind of like, large summarizing of what the book is trying to do and the themes and the domestic violence and the masculinity. And as cece said, we don't really know what the plot points are. To me, it's coming off a bit like it's this and then this happens and then this, but in a way that's not energetic. It's a bit kind of passive. So I think we have to work a little bit harder on trying to drum up some of the energy in the novel so that we can kind of. Even if it's a bit of a quieter novel, there has to be a sense of energy and momentum. So we have to find that deep within the story here. One of my favorite literary novels is Bill Clegg's did you'd ever have a family? And I think he does such an incredible job in that book of most of the book is incredibly quiet. There is kind of a dramatic moment that happens that kind of sets off the course of the book, which helps the hook, helps the framing, helps the jacket copy, even though it is a quieter novel. So I suggest you check out that jacket copy, check out that book if you haven't. It's an incredible book. Bill Clegg's did you ever have a family? Love that book. So that would be something that you might just want to reference. As if my book is quiet, how do I figure out how to frame it in a more energetic way? That would be my recommendation here. And that's about it.
- [13:59]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, can you tell us what's in the opening pages?
- [14:05]
Cece Leera
So the story kicks off with the bird's eye beginning, focused on the story's setting, which is the South Shore, and the weather, which is summer. We learned that the summer before our protagonist starts the second grade is different because his mom got a job and he needs to be dropped off at a strange house. We then go into scene going back in time to see his mom waking him up and then nervously getting ready, escorting him to the car. Once they get there, before they go inside the house, his mom tells him that. That this is a good setup for them, that they're not being charged a lot, and that she knows she's not a regular babysitter, but she has kids his age and it could Be fun. So they go inside. The protagonist is comparing things in this new place, where things are shiny and luxurious, to things in his home, where things are older and cluttered. There are two girls and one boy. And at breakfast, he sees lots of cereals that he only recognizes from the grocery store. And when he asks this woman if he could have some as well, since the kids are having cereal, she tells him that his mom isn't paying him to feed him breakfast, and he isn't actually hungry. He was just curious to try the cereal. So then we go to a different day on the weekend where he's with his mom, and they're at the grocery store, and he asks for fancy cereal, and his mom says, no, let's get the one that's on sale. And while they're cashing out and his mom is, like, counting coins, he feels shame. He continues to be dropped off at the house. We see him going through his days there. And the children don't talk about the babysitting arrangement, but he does notice them noticing his mom handing their mom money. It feels embarrassing to him. The girls don't play with him, but the boys do.
- [15:38]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. It sounds like there's a lot of interiority there and a lot of comparing his situation to their situation, which I know is something that you mention a lot on the podcast. So tell us if it worked in the context of these pages.
- [15:52]
Cece Leera
It did and didn't. So I guess I'll start with my vision. It's really my big picture note. So as I'm hoping listeners could tell by my summary, we're covering a lot in five pages, like, we're covering multiple days. I think you should slow down. I think your story and I think the ingredients that you have here are fantastic. And I'm not using this word lightly. I truly do mean fantastic. I'm intrigued. There's just a lot of, like, imagine a soil that's really fertile. Like, that's how I feel about your story. Like, there's just so much promise, and what could grow here could be amazing. But I don't think that you're planting the seeds in the proper place or watering them in the proper way. So that's what I'm going to talk to you about. I think you need to slow down. And these five pages need to cover one day. And if it has to be four, fine. It has to be six, fine. But my point is, instead of multiple days in five pages, one day. The day the whole babysitting arrangement begins. Cut the beginning. That's all about the weather and the town. It's totally untethered to the protagonist. It's 100% based on setting. And that's really hard for any reader's brain to connect. It's hard for a reader's brain to connect with setting at first, and it's even harder for them to connect with setting that's untethered to a protagonist. So keep that stuff, but don't put it in the beginning. Start with him. And again, I'm going to share my vision, but you make it your own. Start with him waking up with a specific expectation. He's watching his mom. She's nervous. I want to see him interpreting her nervousness. How often is she nervous? Is it typical? Is it unusual? What are his theories? He has a very clear expectation about where he's going to be spending his day. And then his mom's going to drive him to this house, and only while they're outside, she's going to break the news to him that he's actually going to be babysat in really unusual circumstances because he's going to be at a different family's home. So this woman isn't a babysitter. This woman is a mom who has three kids. And he's going to spend the day there as a charge of this mom. And that's going to be the disruption. And we're going to see his expectations, which are going to be whatever you're going to come up with, be thwarted. And he's going to have new expectations now. And when he's outside and he's wondering what's inside, I want him to have theories based on the location, based on everything he's seeing, based on what his mom has told so far. I want to see that interaction. I want to see how much he withholds, how much he reveals. I want to see his deep emotions once he is inside. Yes, right now you are comparing, but the way you are comparing, these are not things that, in my opinion, a child would notice the way you framed them. They're very adult. Very, very, very adult. I've highlighted them for you. I've been like, would a child actually notice these things? And there are a couple of occasions that yes, such as the cereal. But then there are a couple things that no. And then again, we're going to slow down. He doesn't know these kids names. He's going to learn their names. I want to see them learn their names. I want to see the first impression of each of these children and how he's comparing these children to himself. Right now he's comparing the place, the cars, the construction of the house, how clean the house is. But he's not comparing the people to himself. He needs to compare the people to himself. I want to see him filled with active emotions, fear and desire conveyed through surprise in this incredibly charged moment. We've all been kids before. Probably most of us have not been thrusted in a situation where we were being babysat by a woman who has three kids and our mom just sprang this whole new job on us. But we can imagine what that must feel like because we know what it's like wanting our moms by our side. We know what it's like to go to a house that's totally different and be the outsider. You have a really good setup for a really interesting beginning, but you're not leveraging it because you're going too fast. You're covering too many things and so you can't slow down. And I think you need to. When he's there, I think the serial bit is great. I just think again, we need more depth to slow down, take it slow, give us more. Also think that you need to end with a story forward question that's really important in opening pages. I can't only have questions about what happened before. I need questions about what's going to come next, next specific questions. So maybe, for example, he thinks it's only going to be a one day situation and then he's surprised by the fact that it's not. I don't know. It could be. This is your story. You'll figure it out. But that is my vision for you. I feel very strongly that if you do this, your story is going to be elevated. Also in addition to my vision, want to talk to you about a really common mistake that these pages have reminded me of. And it's something. Oh my gosh, like I want to say, at least 50% of submissions we see here on the podcast do this. So it's a common mistake. And it's what I call the blank canvas protagonist mistake. Your protagonist was introduced to the reader on page one. This is true. But your protagonist should feel like they have existed before the story began. How do you know if a protagonist feels real? One very important way is through interiority. Interiority that connects something that's happening in scene with something that's not there. Interiority that is able to theorize and futurize and imagine. And a really, really good way to tell if the blank canvas protagonist mistake is happening or not is to have either A knock at the door, and then have someone wonder who's on the other side. Or have them, as the scene's doing, have a protagonist be outside a house and wonder what's inside. Right. Now, this is how you framed the scene. Still, he hesitated now that it was time to exit the car. Who knew what waited behind those walls? And then you have dialogue from his mom. Real talk. Just real talk. No, never, never, never. Go. Who knew what waited behind those walls? Who knew what was on the other side of that door? Never. You're. You're allowed to ask the question, but your protagonist has to have theories. No human being on this earth stops at the question. We assume, we theorize, we might dismiss our assumptions immediately going, that makes no sense. That can't be it. And then we'll come up with three or four different theories. And that's really, really important to make your protagonist feel real. Because connecting with a protagonist is the main reason why I keep reading pages. Curiosity is important, context important, but connection. Connection is number one. Because if I'm connected to someone, I'm invested, and if I'm invested, I'm rooting for them. And you have a such a perfect protagonist for connection. It's a child, an outsider story. Right. Lots of room for psychological acuity. So you have all the great ingredients, and I'm really excited to see what you do with this because I think there's a lot of potential here.
- [22:40]
Bianca Murray
Wonderful, Cece. Thank you, Carly, what would you like to add to that?
- [22:44]
Carly Waters
All right, so I also made some notes about what to cut in the opening. I would cut all of the weather. So stuff I said, we should start kind of with this paragraph, which says, for most locals, the late arrival of summer merely meant more of the same. But the summer before Terry entered the second grade was different. That summer, when Lena started a new job answering phones and booking appointments at the dentist office, Terry found himself unceremoniously deposited at a strange house on the north side of town. That's the paragraph I would start with. If you are using this material, that would be my recommendation. I really liked that, that line about unceremoniously being dropped off. So to me, what the most interesting of this novel is the relationship between the mother and son. And I just don't think we're kind of doing enough to pinpoint what the goal of each of the characters is kind of in the relationship to each other. Like, is he glad that his mom got a job because she was without a job for a while? Then he saw how stressed she was and you know, like, he has. I don't necessarily, like, need him to be, like, a Persona or adultified child. Like, that kind of thing where he has to kind of mother his mother. Like, it doesn't have to be like that, but he has to. He has to know enough to know when, you know, when they didn't have money or, you know, when they had to move or this kind of the sense of scarcity, I guess, is what I'm getting at. He knows their family has a certain amount of scarcity, of resources, of time with each other and all of these sorts of things. But what he must still want as a child going into seventh grade is still want his mother and her or her approval or her love. And she's. She was written on the page in terms of their dialogue, as, in my mind, she's like, she's not angry. She's just kind of, like, tired. And I guess I was trying to figure out, like, you know, she answered him in such kind of calm ways. You know, he says, can we get this? You know, she sighs, says, this one's on sale, hun. And, like, says it in such, like, this loving way. And I just wonder, like, does he understand how hard his mom's probably working to, like, not, I don't know, snap or something? I don't know. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what the relationship is like and what they want from each other, what they need from each other as being each other's person. Like, when you are a single mom with a child, like, you are each other's person. So I don't know, it just felt kind of distant. And so is that the point? Is the point that it's supposed to be distant? Well, then we need to understand a little bit more about, like, why they are distant and why they're potentially not close. So I don't know, to me, the whole crux of the novel, especially with the comp, Shuggie Bain, these two understanding each other, especially through his eyes, is the key to the whole book. And, you know, I don't want to double down on what Cece said, because everything she said is correct, but this relationship between these two characters, to me, is what's going to kind of hinge the whole novel. So I just didn't think we were starting with, like, a foundational understanding of the relationship between these two characters.
- [25:30]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Thank you to you both. Before we move to our next query, here's a word from our sponsors. So you've started your story with everything that you meant to Strong curiosity seeds, an element of surprise, a strong main character who the reader connects with context, conflict and tension. But you're still getting these soul crushing responses from agents. I didn't connect with the story the way I wanted to. The premise was intriguing, but this ultimately wasn't for me. I'm not the right agent for this project. Let me know if you're working on something else, which is so incredibly frustrating because you check their manuscript wish list and this is exactly what they said they wanted. They've asked for the fall so you know the premise intrigued them. If you did everything right, why didn't they love it? You have a killer hook, so what's not working? Circling the building of your work can help diagnose the problem. Perhaps there's another main character just waiting in the wings, desperate for their big break. Have you truly found the beating heart of the story or is its pulse weak? Have you been looking at it through the wrong end of a telescope all this time? Sometimes all you need is a change of perspective to realize that you've chosen one way to tell your story. But there are infinite ways and hot damn, the fix might have been staring you in the face all this time, but you just couldn't see it. I feel your pain. I know your frustration because I've been there and I'm going to take your hand and lead you through my entire process of circling the building so you can learn how to diagnose your own work. The webinar is happening on the 13th of May from 7 to 10pm Eastern Time. Go to my website biancamarae.com, find the courses tab to book your spot.
- [27:13]
Carly Waters
This weekend we were at a birthday party and our francophone friend asked my son a question in French and he was able to converse with her. This felt like a huge parenting milestone. Immersion education for the win, but a bit of a womp womp on my part because I only learned English as a kid and I'm still getting my French up to conversation level. I'm always looking for the best tools that I can keep up with my friends and my kids in their French speaking Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app and it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. A trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. That's Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, Polish. So many more with that fast language acquisition, Rosetta Stone immerses you in so many ways. There's no English translations. You can really speak, listen and think in that language. It's an intuitive process. You pick up a language naturally, first with words, then phrases, then sentences. There's the speech recognition. The built in True Accent feature gives you feedback on your pronunciation. It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. It's convenient, flexible learning anytime on the go, on the app or on the desktop. And it has amazing value. Lifetime membership for 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. That's lifetime access to all 25 language courses on Rosetta Stone for 50% off. That's a steal. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit Rosetta Stone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today and start learning now.
- [29:00]
Bianca Murray
Okay Carly, can you please read us the second query letter?
- [29:04]
Carly Waters
Dear Carly, As a longtime fan of the podcast, I would very much appreciate your expertise in reviewing this query. In the first five pages, I'm seeking representation for my historical novel crimps. Complete at 100,000 words, crimps will appeal to readers who enjoyed the rich historical intrigue of the Cold Millions by Jess Walter, the lyrical prose of the Whale's Bone Theatre by Joanna Quinn, and the haunting depth of Night Watch, Jane Anne Phillips. Set against the gritty backdrop of 1980s Portland, Oregon, Crimps follows 29 year old Eddie, aspiring theater producer, arriving in the rowdy, fast growing city with dreams of making his mark on the stage. But Portland's theatrical allure conceals a dark underbelly of crime. Led by the infamous Bunko Kelly, whose gang the Crimps capture and sell unsuspecting citizens into forced labor on trade ships, Eddie settles for a job managing a woman's vaudeville troupe. Here he encounters unruly audience of lumberjacks and pirates, while aims to fulfill his ambitions and help the women make their voices heard amongst men hungry for progress when a creative colleague of theirs is captured by the Crimps. Eddie and his partner aim to publicly vilify the gang through their theatrical production. But defaming Crimps puts his ambitions and loved ones at risk as he discovers Bunko's particular deep seated hatred for theater. Meanwhile, Eddie's sister, empowered by her apprenticeship at Portland's first bicycle shop, organizes a women's movement on wheels which attracts the likes of Bunko's wife, pushing Bunko's target for victims even wider. When his sister goes missing, Eddie must face the reality beyond the world of theater to rescue her. In the underground tunnels, Eddie and his sister are reunited, more emboldened to stand up for their own version of progress. But then Eddie's partner gets captured, catapulting right back to the tunnels where Bunko wants him. This time, Bunko floods the tunnels, leaving Eddie with little time to save his partner from drowning. I live in rainy Portland, Oregon, in the historical district where the story takes place. I'm an award winning bedtime storyteller. According to my kids, I worked in professional theater for over two decades and am a gardener. This is my debut novel. Thank you for your consideration. Warm regards, Michael Paul Caruso.
- [31:06]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, that seemed quite long. What was the word count there and what was your take on it?
- [31:12]
Carly Waters
So the writer actually wrote it out at 392 words. So not super long, but definitely a lot happening in terms of plot in this one. All right, so I don't like this title and I will tell you why I don't like this title. Crimps number one reminds me of a little crimper machine that we used in the 90s and 2000s where ladies and girls used to crimp our hair with a little zigzag pattern. Or if somebody doesn't know what the word crimps means, because again, once we read this query letter, we realize it is not about hair crimping tools, it is about a gang. I find in my experience, when a book has a title that people don't understand, it scares somebody because they're like, oh, I don't know what that means. Therefore, I don't want to pick that up because then I might the reader feel dumb because I think, oh, I don't know what that word means. Book isn't for me. You have to pick a title that's in communication with the reader or the future reader so that you're creating again this dialogue right from the beginning. So when I see something that I don't understand immediately, this is not for me, you know, so we totally need a new title. I will leave that up to you. Another thing to think about is look at your title comps. The Cold Millions, the Whales, the Whale's Bone Theater, Night Watch. Think about how much work those titles are doing, your comp titles, and how little your title is doing. So you have tons of opportunity here. There's a lot obviously happening in your book. To me, the book is about the theater, not the gang. Obviously it's about both, but it seems like the heart of the story is the theater. So I would be leaning on that much more than I would be leaning on the gang. So that's my rant about titles. I always have a title rant. So there's my rant for you today. Okay. It's on the long side, right? 100,000 words. There's a lot happening here. It's also historical, so there's a certain amount of world building. It doesn't bother me. If this was 110, I'd be a little bit like, you know, yellow to red flag going up. This is more in the like green to yellow flag area. So I think, I think you're fine at 100,000. It's just on the long ish side. I think your comps are great. You know, I think if somebody is looking for a book like those, your book kind of fits in plot wise. So I think they're doing good work there. You have picked some very top notch authors. I'm pretty sure the Night Watch won the Pulitzer. So, you know, when we are comparing ourselves to the best of the best, as we are in our last query with Shuggie Bain, there are very high expectations in terms of the quality of writing of your material and obviously we always hope that it lives up to that. But again, you're setting yourself up with some high expectations there. But I do think, you know, from what I research with these comps, thematically, they're on board. Okay, so let's talk about the body paragraph. So there's definitely a lot happening here. I'm not sure it bothers me how much is happening in the beginning to the middle. It's the end, I think that I'm getting a little bit stuck on. So at the end it says Eddie and his sister are reunited, more emboldened to stand up for their own versions of progress. Then Eddie's partner gets captured, catapulting him back into the tunnels. Like we go through, like you explained in the query letter that she gets sent to the tunnels and then it's like they come out and then we go back into the tunnels. It's just. I didn't really understand, understand the doubling down. I also don't know if you want to say in the query that the sister gets rescued. Like, should we leave that up in the air as a bit of drama? It just seems like we're just kind of repeating ourselves a little bit thematically and we're on slightly on the longish side of the query in terms of so much going on. So I'd probably end the query differently, and I'll leave that up to you about how you're going to do that. But I definitely think we want to end that differently. You know, going back to Eddie's job in terms of him wanting to work in theater. As I said, this is very strong theme in the query letter as well as the pages. So the line that says, eddie settles for a job managing a woman's vaudeville troupe. I'm a little bit stumped on that sentence because generally more women read books than men. And so are we to presume that he feels like he is settling, therefore taking a lesser job, that, you know, managing a woman's troop in 1980s? He probably does feel that way. But, like, how does the character, I guess, like, on the page feel about that? I think in the query letter, I guess I don't really understand what his career aspirations are because really, it's like, okay, he gets into the theater world, then ends up kind of feeling like he's stepping down, managing women. And then there's all of this gang drama going on and human trafficking happening. And I. I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out, obviously at that point he is fighting for his life and his family, you know, sister's life and the people that he cares about. But I don't know, I guess I just wasn't fully understanding, like, what the larger goal was here other than just survival. But I think I'm just getting nitpicky because I do think I always come back to the question of if the right agent for you reads this query, did it do its job? And I do think the answer is yes. Am I getting nitpicky? Yes, but I think it's just because I want you to, again, to set yourself up on the right, you know, level here. And I definitely, the end of the query needs work. And I would, as I said, just love to know a bit more about what he wants out of all of this? Because I think that gets lost a little bit as he is trying to fight for his life. Is he also fighting for the women in the troop? Like, if human trafficking has happened, wouldn't you be a little bit worried about the woman in your troop? So, I don't know. I guess those are some of my questions I had, and maybe I have more questions than answers, which just says maybe this query isn't for me. But I do think for the right agent, this. It could do the job, potentially, which we don't want. Just a potentially good enough query. We want you to have the best query. I'll turn it over to cece.
- [36:49]
Bianca Murray
Cece.
- [36:50]
Cece Leera
Yeah, I. I echo Carly's comments, so the plot paragraph for me confused me more than it made me curious. I am one of a those agents who, like, I will read your query letter, but I will always scroll down and start reading your pages, regardless of whether the query letter made me curious or not. So if you find an agent like that, then you don't really have to worry too much. But I get the sense that not everyone follows that process. Everyone has their own process, and that's fair. And so because of that, because of the reality that not all agents will continue scrolling reading your pages, I think you need to, quite frankly, rewrite your query letter. You know, maybe I'm wrong. Carly said, I think if the right agent reads it, they'll be happy about it. I. I think it's too confusing. I did not understand the settling thing. I'm like, the man wanted to work in theater. Why is this settling? Is it Valdofile that's the problem? Is it the women? Is it the fact that he's a manager, not a director? Like, what did he expect to start directing? Is he delusional? And then the whole, like, there's a sentence that says defaming the crimps puts his ambition and loved ones at risk. And I was like, ooh, what loved ones? And then couple said sentences later, there's the bit about his sister going missing. And I'm like, is that the same thing? The loved ones that are at risk? Does that refer to his sister go missing? Because why does that happen later with the sentence that starts with meanwhile? Speaking of the meanwhile, that made me wonder if this is dual pov, because usually you use meanwhile to start, like a different plot journey, but then I don't think it is, so I'm not clear on that either. Oh, another thing that confused me deeply. His ambitions and loved ones are at risk as soon as he discovers Bunko's particular deep seated hatred for theater. And I read that and I was like, listen, maybe I'm missing something. Probably I'm missing something. But the man is at risk because this gang leader hates theater. No, the man is at risk because he put on a show defaming him. Like, it isn't his hatred of theater that caused anything. Like, that's just the detail. Maybe the man also hates theater. But, like, why is that in the query letter? I empathize writing A query letter is really hard. Whenever I have to write pitch copy to send to editors, like, I spend. I'm not even kidding you. Like, I write and rewrite that thing over the course of a whole week. And that's after thinking about it for twice as long. So it takes a long time. It takes a long time. Lots of. Lots of empathy. But I have to be honest, I was confused, and I don't want to be confused. I want to be curious. So I would rewrite this.
- [39:19]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, an overview of the opening pages, please.
- [39:23]
Carly Waters
Alrighty. So we start with Edwin, our main character, and his sister Rose. They are in the back of a boxcar with 40 men kind of packed in on their way somewhere. He has a magazine spread in his lap, which we find out is something to do with the theater. And he's kind of imagining his. His future life as they're traveling along in the box. He has a guitar with him, and there's kind of other gruff men who are presumably doing more hard labor jobs, kind of making fun of the fact that he has a guitar with him, telling, be quiet. The sister rolls her eyes, say they're trying to get sleep and kind of imagining their future life where he has a job in theater, specifically Mr. Cordry's theater. Then we take a paragraph break, and we are thrown into this world of the theater, and we find out it is Cordry's theater. It is not clear whether this is through Edwin's eyes. I'm led to believe it is not through Edwin's eyes. It's just like a zooming out, third person, omniscient point of view where we're kind of looking at the larger picture, where we take in the scene of the night in terms of people's outfits, the costumes they're wearing, the actors, the music, and the design of the theater itself. And that is essentially where we end.
- [40:49]
Bianca Murray
All right, thank you, Carly. So what did you think of the opening pages? Are we starting in the right place?
- [40:55]
Carly Waters
I hummed and hawed quite a bit. I think we are. I don't know. I would keep the boxcar bit. If we're going to keep anything, I don't think we should keep this kind of zoomed out analysis of the theater. That felt a little strange to me. I was a bit confused, as I mentioned, whether, again, that they had finally made it there and they were in the theater witnessing that and it was kind of through their eyes. But as I said, I'm pretty sure it's just like we're taking in the theater at large. So I think that kind of has to go in terms of the specifics on the opening pages. So when they're in the boxcar, Edwin's looking at the magazine. The sister says, did that fancy theater house post any employment listings? She asked, her foily voice barely cutting through the noise. I feel like this doesn't work because to me, again, we don't know their ages necessarily on the page. Obviously you mentioned in the query letter, we assume the sister is younger. I just didn't really feel like it was the right energy for the moment because wouldn't she be looking over his shoulder at what he was reading? Or maybe she can't read and then maybe it needs to be explained that she can't read. That's why she would. Like when she was looking over the shoulder, she didn't really understand what was going on. So I think what she should say, again, if she could read, and she might be illiterate, but if she can read, I think she should say, I don't see any jobs listed on that page. As opposed to, did that fancy theater have his post any employment listing? Because the point is, presumably they are going somewhere. They know we know they're in a boxcar, we know they're not in a first class carriage, we know they're slammed in a boxcar, probably train hopping to get themselves somewhere. So they don't have money, therefore we know they need a job. So I think these pages do a lot of explaining when we know we have to assume situationally a certain amount of information. And so I don't think this writer was trusting themselves enough. They were kind of, again, we know they're looking for a job. So because they don't have any money, that's why they're in a boxcar, you know, all of this type of stuff. I also felt it a bit odd, again, because the rose is a girl woman. We don't know exactly how old she is or else I didn't catch how old she was. This level of discomfort because there are 40 men slammed in a boxcar. Rose at one point, like tucks her hair under her hat and at one point she like rolls her eyes at something that men say. Like, wouldn't both of them be a lot more worried for her safety? I thought it a bit strange that, you know, she would be speaking or a bit bold or roll her eyes when. Yeah, as I said, it's a pretty precarious situation. Maybe that's part of her character that, you know, she is a bit Bold. And that's fine. But then shouldn't we comment on the fact that. So we know that that is what she's doing, as opposed to the reader just, again, being confused about the situation here when he is talking to himself. It should be in italics. I just wanted to note that it was in single quotes, and I would just switch that. So now just jumping over to the theater portion of the pages, potentially, again, for another type of agent or another type of reader, this could work. This describing sound, describing visuals, just trying to bring a sensory experience to life through words so that I can imagine it in my mind as the experience for some agents. Again, some people, they can imagine and bring this to life. I felt like it was way too long and trying too hard to kind of bring this to life. I don't know. And again, it could just be me, but I. I felt a little bit like, why are we spending so much time describing this, especially if our main characters aren't there? You're trying to set the stage, but you should set the stage for when they get there and then they see it and then we see it through their eyes. I think that would just be more powerful in that sense. Yeah. So I made some notes about, you know, what I think should be cut. But I think there is something really interesting in this story, and that's why I keep kind of coming back to. I bet you're going to get requests. I bet you, you are. Because I do think there's something interesting here. There is definitely something to work with and kind of have somebody kind of mold it, but I just don't think we're here in this version for me.
- [45:02]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Just a reminder to our listeners, those of you who are subscribed, paid subscribers to our substack will get the written critiques on Tuesday in that edition, and then you'll be able to see all the line edits and the deletions, etc. Etc. Okay, Cece, handing it across to you.
- [45:21]
Cece Leera
I guess I'll highlight a note. If this show were all about evaluating description, I'd be giving you a cookie right now. Your descriptions are wonderful. Like, you do a great job describing. You have an eye for detail. Your sentences are really strong. I find writing description to be really hard. I'm not someone who pays attention to these things. Like, as a human, like, I find. Find people's psychology to be way easier to talk about and describe than anything else. And you're killing it with the descriptions. The thing is, descriptions are one ingredient of a story, and it's an ingredient that I shouldn't be able to taste in isolation. So if your story is a quiche, and I'm taking a bite of the quiche, meaning I'm reading your first pages, I shouldn't be able to taste the ingredient called description. You know, it should be an ingredient that's the storyteller used very carefully, very intentionally, and they know that. My opinion, my palette will be able to capture that and will appreciate it, but I shouldn't be able to see it in isolation or taste it in isolation. And right now I can. You're describing way too much. And it's not even way too much. It's the way you're describing. You're not tethering it to the protagonist like, this is story. This is not an account. So I think it's really, really important to. So first of all, congratulate yourself on your talent for description, but also take a step back and remind yourself, I am a storyteller. My job is to seduce the reader with story. Story is not explanation. Story is not description. Story is not backstory. Story is story. And so storytelling is seduction. Your job is to seduce the reader. I would rewrite this beginning entirely. I don't think it's the right place, and I don't think you're doing it in the right way. I would choose a beginning where the disruption is very, very surprising to Eddie. And then I guess the second thing I'll say is there was head hopping in the first page. The first line reads, the only thing saving Edwin Clark from being completely overwhelmed by the jostling momentum and thunderous sound of the steam locomotive is the Mat magazine spread open on his lap. Second paragraph. We have, crouched beside him, his sister Rose tucks some loose hair up into her hat, tugging it low over her brow to go unnoticed. And then look at this other sentence. She peers out from under the brim at the illustration, which her brother has been staring at, like it's a glimpse into their future. Is her brother him? It's not another brother? Right. So then, like, that's not how you should refer to him. I. I know you might not actually be meaning to head up, but I read that and I was like, ah, it sounds like we're in Rose's head. And that felt very jarring to me. You know, he is not her brother. He is him. She is his sister. Because we're in his point of view, we're in his interiority. And then we go to the omniscient, I guess, point of view in. In the second section, and that was just very jarring to me as well. Now, to be clear, lots of books do omniscient Lots of books books do omniscient well. Some books I love do omniscient really well. I'm thinking Lessons in Chemistry, for example. Very few begin like this though. So if this is your vision, please ignore me. Please ignore me. I'm not offended at all. If it's not your vision, if it wasn't your intention, I would take a step back and rewrite.
- [48:40]
Bianca Murray
Wonderful as always. Thanks so much to Carly and Cece for their incredible insights. If you do want to submit for books with her hooks, you can go to the shitaboutwriting.com and find the Books with Hooks tab and you can submit there. Join us next week for our author interview and in two weeks we'll be back again with books with hooks. Thanks everyone.
- [48:59]
Cece Leera
Bye.
- [49:00]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the Folsom picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice, and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting.substack.com.
- [49:53]
Bianca Murray
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [50:07]
Cece Leera
Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast, then you know that one of my most common notes on the Books with Hook segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are the ones that make readers feel. But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill of writing emotion really well, but also mastering writing relationships effectively, since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections. The best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing, this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the option of submitting a scene from their work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March and if you were there, you know it was a smashing success. If you'd like to know more, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.
- [51:45]
Bianca Murray
It's Beta Reader match up time again, where you can be matched up with those writing in the same genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 4th of May, with the matchup emails going out on the 5th of May because my new novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, pubs in early June and will be keeping me very busy, this will be the last matchup until the fall. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matchups will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors and hopefully they'll do the same when the time comes for you to register. For more information, head to Biancamurrae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.