J.R. Ward (2:55)

I Totally. Well, I. I can't comment about the younger generation and what their predilections are, but I can say that what I loved was going to a polycon last year and seeing all these incredible authors. And whether they were self published or indie published or Tradition and they had, each one of their books is becoming like a world that creates not just a relationship with the reader, with the words on the page, but it's the merchandise and it's these covers and it's the series. And I think it's just a whole nother level to reading, which everyone said was going to go away when ebooks came out, when ebooks came out. You know, it goes back to Ghostbusters where it's like, print is dead. Well, it's not dead. And I love that the younger generation is teaching us that there's a whole new evolution to reading now. And I just love it.

Bianca Murray (3:49)

I have to agree with you there. And what I also love is how they will buy the same copy of a book that they love, but with three different covers, right?

J.R. Ward (3:57)

Yes, absolutely. And there actually are a couple of different versions of this book that are already coming out. They're going to be coming out soon. I love that, too.

Bianca Murray (4:07)

Yeah. And I think there's also like a market on Etsy where there are some people who will design special covers for books, whether it's with leather bound, et cetera, so that people can customize covers for the books that they love. So I've always said that for me, reading and collecting books are two completely different hobbies. And I think the younger generation are really. They're really proving that.

J.R. Ward (4:32)

I agree.

Bianca Murray (4:35)

Okay, so let's dive into the book. This is your first Romantasy. And so I would like us to break down, kind of for our listeners, the difference between paranormal romance and romantasy in terms of tropes, in terms of the genre, in terms of how you approach it.

J.R. Ward (4:55)

So for me, after having been in the paranormal space for 20 years, the Black Dagger Brotherhood is grounded in this world, this common world. So whether it's flashbacks back hundreds of years ago or whether it's now in Caldwell, or whether it's 33 years from now in Caldwell, New York, the commonly accepted version of reality, yes, there are myths and there's spirituality and there's a whole new tradition, and they have been going parallel to humans, but there is A common vocabulary as to what the quote unquote, real world is with fantasy. This is a totally different world that exists nowhere. There is no Earth. There's no what. This is a totally different realm with different rules and different magic and creatures that don't exist on Earth. So I think what's interesting about it is, is in both cases, you're dealing with the human condition in extraordinary circumstances. What I've heard about people say about the vampires is that all of the emotions are human emotions that when they're reading, they feel on behalf of the characters, whether they're suffering or they have joy or whether they're scared or whether they're fighting. Those are all the common human emotions. And the same is true for Romantasy. It is another platform to have the reader enter into a space where they feel things, they feel things, and they experience things from the comfort of their own homes.

Bianca Murray (6:19)

Yeah. I mean, and Romantasy has just exploded now. It has become so popular. So I know that you said in another interview that you actually had the idea for this book, like, 20 years ago, and then when your publisher or your editor asked you, you know, would you consider writing Romantasy, you were like, well, I have this idea from ages and ages ago.

J.R. Ward (6:40)

Yes, that's exactly. Well, the thing was, is that I was fired after my first four books, and the publisher right to do it because they were critically well acclaimed and very well received, but they didn't develop an audience. And so the Black Decker Brotherhood was like my Hail Mary to just try and not be a lawyer for the rest of my life. And the agreement I had with the pictures in my head was that I would write whatever I'm shown. I don't think up these books. I don't. I don't have any influence over the. The people in them. I don't develop storylines. There's no Pinterest boards, There's no inspiration. I have movies that play in my head, and my job is to transcribe them such that when the reader reads the wor, they can approximate what's in my head. And so I. The Black Dagger Brotherhood was so out there for what was happening 20 years ago that I was like, this is never going to be bought. And even if some publisher is dumb enough to try and publish it, it's never going to find an audience. And so I was like, well, let me go and see about some other things that I have in my head. And I had this vision of four people sitting around in this round circular turret in a castle in A medieval, like, castle around a golden compass that was flaring light into undersides of their faces. And I was like, oh, well, I gotta find out about this. So I just kind of followed. Followed that and saw where it went and I made this outline. But then the Black Dagger Brotherhood took off, which I'm very grateful for. And then. Yeah. So two years ago, my agent came to me and was like, you don't happen to have any, I don't know, romantic stuff hanging around? And I was like, as a matter of fact, I do. So I revised everything and, like, got it so that it was ready. And yeah, I've been really lucky. And I really love writing. I love writing Romantasy. It's really super fun and horrible at the same time. Yeah.

Bianca Murray (8:30)

And coming back to what you said about starting with that image, I think you said as well about Crown of War and Shadow is that you started with an image in your head, I think, of Sorrel with the cloak over her head, the pox cloak. And you kind of had that image. And again, it was like, okay, who is she? How am I going to follow her into the story?

J.R. Ward (8:48)

Yeah. And I think that. That. So entering, like, what I find is that the pictures beget more pictures beget more pictures. So if I start with one of the ones that I'm shown, and then I can just kind of watch her move and where she's going, who she interacts with, and the story kind of breathes on its own and the story is in charge of where we go. Not me. My only thing that I do is I kind of put the scenes that I'm showing, because they often they come out of order, is to put them in a good chronological order. And then in the case of the Black Dagger Brotherhood, I also have to assess, like, who's the best point of view for this particular scene. Because this is first person, Crown of War and Shadow, I didn't have to do that. But it was also interesting because as first person, the reader can only be shown or know or extrapolate that which Sorrell experiences, thinks, or, or considers. So that was both good and bad. It worked well for the purposes of some of the big highlights of this plot. But it also is a challenge because you've got to give this rich sense of the world, but you've only got that one point of view.

Bianca Murray (9:54)

Yeah. The thing with first person point of view when it comes to world building is that the challenge there is that we are meeting them at some point in their life. They have lived in this world. Their whole life. So they aren't going to point out everything to the reader and explain it to them because it's backdrop to them. You know, when you leave your house today, you aren't going to be like, well, this is what my front door looked like and this is what my street looked like. Because it's all, you know, it's faded into the background for you. And yet you have to do world building for the reader and create enough of a visual so that what you have going through your head is something that they can envision as well. So can you speak a bit about the challenges of that?

J.R. Ward (10:38)

Well, I mean, I think that. I think that's. I don't want to say this in a wrong way. That was not a problem for me because I can see the world out of Sorrel's eyes. Okay. But then I can also take myself out and I can watch her. And so if I'm standing outside of her and I'm looking at her and she's in the Lake of Lost Souls and there are these big boulders around her, and then the giant black bird of prey comes after her. I can watch it like a movie, or I can be in her eyes on the horse and feel the wind and feel the horse charging and hear the thundering hooves and see the dust kicking up and feel the great backdraft of this giant wings over her. So I think it's figuring out because I often feel like only the first reader because it's all revealed to me. Like, I kind of have to figure out, like, what is captivating to me. Even if Sorelle is not captivating, captivated by it as I watch her, as I experience it, even though it's her and her world, I'm still seeing it for the first time. So I kind of judge on that, like, what catches my eyes as I. As we go through these things, if that makes sense.

Bianca Murray (11:52)

Yeah, totally. I'm someone who also. I am a complete pantser. I never plot anything. My last book was a closed, remote mystery. So it was interesting to pants that for me. And that was actually going to be a question I was going to ask you. Is, are you viewing her from the outside or are you inside of her? Because for me, I am inside the character and I view the world from inside them. And to me, it's so fascinating that you're able to dip in and out. Does that help you, junior, in terms of interiority? Because with this kind of book, especially with the Slow Burn kind of book, we need to know what she's thinking we need to know her feelings, what her theories are about what's happening, etc. Etc. And that is so much easier when you climb into the character. But when there's action scenes and things are happening to her, perhaps then it's easier to climb out and watch it from the outside. Or is that not necessarily how it works?

J.R. Ward (12:48)

So I think you're right. I think the reader has to know what they're thinking. But I also think if a person on if a care. If a character is on the page, I feel like the reader gets to know them as a friend. And in the way a friend can describe to you something that happened to them, you kind of know their orientation. Right, you're right. Though I do agree with what you're saying that the interiority, I think is the word you used is important. But I also think it's important that however the character is portrayed, that the reader begins to extrapolate and predict the way they're going to act, because that gives credibility to that moment in the book when things are a surprise. One of the things that's great about life, I think, and also horrible about it is, is we have these briefcase of assumptions that we take with us wherever we go. And the assumptions are both like our privilege or our upbringing or who the people around us are, our orientation towards all kinds of things, our character. And then every once in a while, life is going to corkscrew on us. And what we're going to do in that moment or after that moment is resolved, we're going to look back on everything that happened and be like, there were the bench posts that I missed or I misinterpreted or I took for granted. X, but Y was really what was meant. And I feel like that's the books that I respond to. Not that I read much anymore, but the books that have moved me are the ones that have revealed something about me as a like that I'm not even aware I'm bringing to the page as I read. Because you're like, oh, wait, yeah, life really is like that? Or, oh, gosh, you know, I didn't see that coming. So I think that, yeah, that's an interesting. It is an interesting balance. How much do you show versus how much do you let the reader extrapolate?

Bianca Murray (14:52)

Yeah, well, and just based on what you've just said, I mean, true character is revealed in moments of adversity. We can tell ourselves that we are good people, that we would respond, responded in a certain way. But when all hull breaks loose, that's when true character is revealed. And what I love about how we unpack Sorel is that even though it's a slow burn, is that everything about the way she reacts to what's happening to her tells us something about her. You know, when she interacts with Merc and he's like, you must do this. And she's like, the hell I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna go check on my friend, because my friend is my priority. So everything in the book, not just what she says and feels, but what she does, is constantly revealing character.

J.R. Ward (15:37)

I agree. And I think that, like, and that's maybe that's. I can't really cop to having any. Any smarts in this because, again, I'm just a secretary. I just. I just watch these movies. But I do feel like it's sort of like the way I watch people in my own life. Like, not. Not like in some, like, creepy voyeur system. Sense the word. But I find people fascinating. I like to hear my friends talk about their lives. I like to listen and hear their perspectives because I just think people are interesting. And I wonder if that isn't like, a writer thing. Like, maybe part of the reason why we write is because it's not just the pretty pictures and it's not just the challenge of it, and it's not just what our brains do, but I think it's just really another extension to finding humans fascinating in good ways and bad.

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Bianca Murray (18:33)

Yeah, I think, I think you've hit on something there in terms of writers because I think I can remember the very exact moment when I realized that other people don't think the way I think. There was a moment where there was some argument when I was 10 years old, no younger, probably 8, and, and I was like, so obviously this is the right thing. And somebody had the exact opposite view. And I remember my mind being blown and being like, oh my God, there are people who walk through this world and their thoughts are not the same.

J.R. Ward (19:04)

Yep. No, I agree, I agree. And that's the things that, that, that bring us together and tear us apart too. You know. And I do think that, yeah, I mean I think with this book, I don't like to use the word journey because I feel like it's kind of an it's been worn out. But watching Sorrel change over the course of the book and how she starts. She describes herself as a mouse among rats at the beginning and then where she is in the final scene, I feel like it is just this, this big yawning vista of just someone who's coming out of their shell and discovering things about themselves and things that they couldn't have possibly have extrapolated. That's kind of like what I like about life in general is how are you growing? How are you challenging yourself? As you said, like, character is revealed in moments tension and moments of conflict. And so, yeah, I mean, I think good books are about conflict. And that's not just two people not getting along, as you said, it's also external forces and how do we respond to adversity or challenges or fear, and where are we brave when we don't think we can be? And that's what I love about romantasy. Well, and also about the paranormal. Urban fantasy is I think that you can, you can construct situations or have them revealed. In my case, in these worlds that can be so much more vivid and high stakes than they are in, like, the real world. Because, like, you know, having a flat tire, that is a big problem. And how you handle your flat tire can reveal your character, but it's a hell of a lot different than you when you're fighting a dragon, you know? Yeah.

Bianca Murray (20:37)

When you, when your dragon gets a flat tire, that's much more interesting.

J.R. Ward (20:41)

That's true.

Bianca Murray (20:43)

In terms of character arc, this was, again, so important. So we say that you want to go on a journey with the character, and who the character is at the end of the book needs to be so different to who they are at the beginning of the book. And certainly there have been incredible books where the character stays exactly the same throughout, but they change everybody else around them. But this, this is what makes you feel like you know her and, and it makes you protective of her. So Sorel has these secrets that are kept from her, and she believes something about her past, and I don't want to give anything away there. But again, what I love about that is the surprises that come. So on the podcast, we talk about planting curiosity seeds. So you need to plant a seed that the reader goes, ooh, that's interesting. I'm going to keep reading for the payoff of that. And you do that so well with her character that we keep going, ooh, you've got my curiosity piqued. When are we gonna find out more about that? And that leads to a whole page turning story as well as the character arc.

J.R. Ward (21:49)

Well, again, I don't really, I can't really cop to thinking any of this up, so I don't really, you know, it's not anything that I did constructively. It's not any forethought or anything, but I do think a movie's good if you give a crap about the people who are in it. You know, and it's interesting because morally gray heroes like Merc. He's morally gray. Like, you don't really get a sense that he's taking her through the badlands because he's a nice guy. That's not the arrangement. So, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think that we watch things because we either find something of ourselves in the character, an outsider, someone who. Who is shy, or someone who doesn't feel like they can be brave, or we want to see what someone will do, like, oh, my God, you know, what is he or she going to do next? Or you want to be like, is this guy going to turn out to be a good guy after all, or is he just a shit? You know? And so I think you're right. I think, you know, we have to either find something that. That is. That resonates within us for a good reason or a bad reason. And then, you know, I think in this. In this book Crown, I think there's a lot to find ourselves in. I certainly found that way while I was watching the movie.

Bianca Murray (23:10)

Yeah. Yeah. I love. I love that. It's just the. Watching the movie. So I know that you will always be surprised, and I'm the same as this. I feel like my reader is going to be surprised if I'm surprised. If I'm taking the reader by the hand, the reader's going to see where we're going. Whereas if we end up there and I'm like, how the hell did we get you? And the reader's like, how the hell did we get you? So long as we. It's plausible, it's absolutely great. Have there ever been instances where you have fought back against those visions or those characters and been like, you're wrong? Or is it that you trust them 100%?

J.R. Ward (23:42)

Well, so I have a problem if I. I learned with Lover Revealed, which was the fourth book in the Black Dagger Brotherhood series, that if I tried to get too fancy pants, tried to get smart with the pictures, they shut up. And then I got nothing. I got no. I got no voices. I got no places. I got no. I don't have anything. I have a blank slate because they. My publisher back then was worried that the books were getting a little too long. So they were like, you know, just be aware that you're starting to, like, create problems for packing because you're not fitting into the cardboard boxes anymore. So I was like, all right, I got a great idea. It was like chapter four or five in that book. And I was like, I'm going to consolidate some of these scenes. So I'm going to, like, I know these scenes are going to be here, but I'm going to mash them all together and I'm going to tell the reader what happens. And the pictures and voices shut up. So the other time is there was something in Love or Unbound, which was the fifth book that, you know, at the time, needed to be kind of changed. And so I did have. I did go against the pictures at that point. And it was the most miserable writing experience I've ever had. It was like pulling teeth. That book was difficult as hell to write because it was a. It was not the book that I was shown. And so the only time I get into trouble is if I don't do what I'm told. And I'm a very disciplined, structured, controlled kind of person. So the fact that I have to make peace with this ether or I don't have a job is like a trick of fate that makes me laugh to this day. It is just so funny because that's not the way I kind of run my life. But I don't know, I think that the pictures don't care about my opinion about things. They don't care about anything. They just are what they are. And so the answer is no. I don't get writer's block and I don't not go. Although that is an interesting question, because what happens if something happened where, like, I'm, like, morally or I couldn't do it? It hasn't happened yet. I hope it doesn't. But yeah, no, I guess it kind of also happened with Lover Unbound. So I don't know. But I would say 99.9% of the time I do what I'm told and everything works out.

Bianca Murray (25:48)

That makes me laugh so much because I'm an A type control freak Capricorn in every area of my life except for writing. And so I say that the universe gave that to me as my playground. It's the one place where I don't need to control everything. And it sounds like the same for you.

J.R. Ward (26:03)

It's exactly the same. Exactly the same for me.

Bianca Murray (26:05)

Yeah. You said that writing the first draft of this book, and I quote, was an effing nightmare. Can you take us through that?

J.R. Ward (26:13)

Oh, it was so awful. I can't even tell you it was miserable. It took me nine months to write this book. I'm A fast writer. So I usually write about three books a year and I, you know, that's just kind of the way it works. And I work seven days a week. I done, you know, I don't, I don't take time off. I don't. Because what am I going to do with myself? This was. Was horrible. It was awful figuring out how. So I'd written one other first person point of view book and, well, and a short story, but. But that's very different than doing a romantasy whole world start off an entire series. First point of view, it's a totally different ball game. And then figuring out since I knew the whole thing, not just about what was going to happen in this book, but where we were going in the other books and the world, how much do I have to show the reader so that the reader is going to have an idea and feel grounded enough to enter into the story? That was the thing that I was worried about and it was getting that balance titrated correctly. Have I put too much in? You know, I don't want to tell everything. I like to show things. So I'm like, like, you know, how much getting that, that correct, that, that done. And then there was problems also with pacing. You know, the first part of this book is a little bit slow for me. Usually I am a bang. We're off to the races. But what I learned about this book is that I had so much to kind of like. It was like getting a giant airplane off the tarmac. Like, you got to get this momentum going and then it takes off. And so I was like, well, you know, did I do that right? Oh, it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. And then like, like all the words and the different, like, describing the different creatures and oh my gosh. So it was a thing. It was a thing.

Bianca Murray (27:51)

But it's interesting that no matter how many books you've written, every book teaches you how to write it, you know.

Cece Lera (27:58)

Agreed.

J.R. Ward (27:59)

Totally agree with that. And different lessons every time. Yeah.

Bianca Murray (28:03)

And some are easier than others and some you really have to wrestle with along the way. Jl, thank you so much. And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes. Hi, everyone. I'm going to keep this short because I know how busy you are. I just wanted to let you know that the next beta reader matchup is almost upon us. Submit your 3,000 words by 12pm Eastern Time on the 1st of April and you will get your beta reader matchup emails on the 2nd of April. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com.