← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
When Characters Collide with Conflict
00:44:42
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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A
Foreign.
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B
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone and welcome back to another Books with Hooks. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Carly, please kick us off with your first query letter.
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C
Dear Carly Waters, I'm currently seeking representation for my 88,000 word novel 25 Horses. Knowing that you're drawn to upmarket book club fiction with heart driven plots and richly drawn characters, I hope you might be interested in having a look 26 year old accountant and lifelong writer Carol Ann Jones has always held her family together, putting her emotionally erratic mothers and mentally ill brothers needs ahead of her own. But when Carol learns of the Mongol Derby, a thousand kilometer horse race that is billed as the world's longest and toughest, she's determined to finally do something for herself. Her resolve lasts until the day before her flight to Ulaanbaatar, when she discovers her brother face down, his wrists slit, and his life in question. As Carol tries to make her peace with returning to the same safe, obedient life she's always lived, her mother lashes out, blaming Carol for her brother's near death and forbidding the race. Carol finally rises up, leaving her brother to the care of medical professionals as she flies off to the race of her life. Unsure of her decision but desperate for her own adventure, she strikes up a fast romance with a fellow competitor, only to find herself a victim to attempted rape. As she rides strange horses across the step, Carol confronts her grief, guilt and repressed history of sexual assault from one of her mother's many past boyfriends, as well as the more immediate dangers of near feral horses, wild dogs, flash floods in extreme weather. As a rider myself, I've always been fascinated by horses. Simultaneously gentle and brutal, beautiful and ridiculous, these animals bring up the extremes in people who work with them. I first learned at the Mongol Derby while listening to an interview with a writer who said that the long and harrowing race forced deep and often disturbing self reflection. As she put it, I saw right to the bottom of myself and I did not like what I saw. I believe this is the moment that literary fiction should inhabit. An earlier version of this manuscript earned a spot for me as the 2022 Tennessee Williams Scholar at the Siwanee Writers Conference. I completed my graduate studies in creative writing at the University of Georgia, earning my master's and PhD under the guidance of Judith Ortiz Coffer and Reginald Mcknight I now serve as a professor of English in the Creative Writing program at Redacted. My short fiction and essays have been published in numerous journals, including the Indian Review, Prairie Schooner Booth, American Short Fiction, Cincinnati Review, Colorado Review, and others. My first novel, Bored Horses, was a semifinalist for the VCU Cable First Novel Award. My second novel, Scrapple Braddock Ave Books, and my chapbook, the Heart Keeps faulty time. Full CD press, was released in 2020. And my most recent book, an essay collection entitled the Sum of Her Parts, is available from University of Georgia Press. If the project sounds like it might be a fit, I'd be delighted to send a fuller partial manuscript for further consideration. Best redacted.
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B
Thank you so much, Kali. Okay, wow, Great bio paragraph there. All right, so take us through it. What did you think of it?
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C
All right. I love the way that this author worded it. She said this letter weighs in at 5:22. We usually say, like I always say, clocks in. I don't know, it's my usual go to. But it was like the heaviness of it, the weight. You can tell this is a creative writing professor who's very particular about their words. So I love that. Have to remember to say that from that one weighs in at a 5:22. Okay, so a few things just off the top. We're missing comps. We have a title that potentially sounds non fictiony. I'm just flagging that. You know, I would revisit some other title options, but we definitely need some comps in those who are missing. Okay, so there is a lot happening here in this plot paragraph. We love a plot paragraph that has lots going on. What I think is the difference here is a busy plot paragraph versus a plot paragraph that is actually trying to sell me or pitch me something. Because I don't think this paragraph is doing the job of pitching. I think this paragraph is just doing the job of telling me what's happening in the pages. It also seems potentially historical. And is it contemporary? I don't know. I'm not really sure where it's set in terms of the contemporary, like home piece. Obviously we're going to the Mongol Derby. She has to get on a plane to get there. I don't know where this is set. I'm assuming somewhere in America. I think it matters because we're trying to show the contrast between these two lives. I would just love to know where it is set. I'd love to hear more about the race drama itself itself. We have, you know, dogs, floods, weather, all this stuff going on. It is very internal, right? This journey, and which is alluded to in this great quote I saw right to the bottom of myself and I did not like what I saw. So we know it's going to be very internal, potentially literary journey that this character is going on, and there is lots of plot happening. But what is the consequence of the two? I'm just worried it's. We have so much potential with like a very, you know, sweeping landscape potentially, and these great, like, atmospheric elements that I hope are going to come into play, because I think we're lacking in atmospheric elements in the contemporary the moment where she is at home. So I'm. I, I just feel like there's a lot of promises being made here. And as an agent, I have to assume that this person is going to take me on this ride. And that's a lot of assumptions to make. I'm not like, believing in this moment that this author is definitely going to do all these things. I have to assume there's going to be an atmospheric moment to come, you know, when I'm not really sure whether there isn't the contemporary home setting. So this author is asking us to put a lot of faith in them that they're going to be able to take us on this journey. And I'm not convinced that we're going to be able to do this. The other thing is everyone has a history, right, that's just like, no matter what, like these characters, all we have these imagined lives that happened before this book started, right? Because we always say this book needs to happen at the most interesting point in a character's life. We can assume that everybody has a backstory, but what's. And what's happening in the present has to be more important. And I'm not really convinced that it is yet because there's so much about the past and the brother and the mother, which is great. But again, I just feel like I'm being told things and I don't actually feel like I'm being pitched something or being sold something. I feel like I'm being told a lot of things. So that's kind of where I'm feeling like a bit wishy washy on this one. I do. I think there's a ton of potential here. I'm just kind of like, okay, where. Where's this person taking us? So in terms of the author bio paragraph, I would technically say there's two author bio paragraphs, and they're not. Both of them aren't quote unquote, author bios. The one paragraph is just explaining the fascination with horses, why they chose to write about this. And then we have the more meaty author bio paragraph, which we all agree is great. It's a lot. That's a lot of words, right? So we're clocking in at over 500. We are weighing in at over 500 words here. That's a lot of words. And I really think we need to condense this. And, you know, it's. It's always going to be up for discussion about what needs to be trimmed in a bio like this. Obviously, all this is wonderful. A couple things that I would suggest, and you can take it or leave it, which is in your email signature, you're going to have a link to your website, and on your author website, you're going to have a list of all of these wonderful things. So think about what you maybe want to take out, whether it is the short fiction and essays have been published in numerous journals that that piece could obviously all be on your website. You know, different awards and things like that. I don't think you need to name who you were taught by personally. Again, this is your decision to make. I don't think that's necessary. So there's just different pieces I think you can kind of comb out, knowing that if somebody's interested, they're going to click their way through to your website where you're going to have more information. And those are my main thoughts on this one. I'm. I'm curious what CC thinks about this body paragraph.
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B
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.
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A
Okay. Yes, I had the same thought about comps, and also in the first paragraph. So this novel is pitched as a novel, no genre specified. However, there's a line that reads, knowing that you are drawn to upmarket book club fiction, I hope you might be interested. So it tells me this is upmarket book club fiction. At least that's the assumption I make. Right? And with upmarket book club fiction, it's very important that the plot feels very juicy, very propulsive, very urgent, and that it is a plot that people are going to sit around and talk about. You know, you should be having conversations like, oh, would I have done what this person did if I had been pushed to the brink like she was? And the plot paragraph doesn't reflect that. I also want to flag that the first author paragraph, that's not really an author paragraph. It's more like the origin story paragraph says, I believe this is the moment that literary fiction should inhabit. Which makes me think that this author is writing literary fiction. But then they were like, curly wants upmarket. So I'm going to tweak the first paragraph to say it's up market, which I understand. Like, if this is what happened, like, I obviously don't know. But if I'm right, I want to say that, like, I empathize. People hear all the time, like, upmarket has commercial elements and literary elements. So I'm just going to call it upmarket. But it's actually a really, really specific and really hard genre to pull off because. Because you have to straddle those two sub genres or parent genres or whatever you want to call them. So I don't know. Again, I don't know if that's what happened, if it isn't. If you just decided to share how you feel about literary fiction at the end, unrelated to your story genre, I would a thousand percent remove that because it does flag something to agents, which is this person doesn't necessarily know what she's writing. And you want to have clarity in that. I think so. Plot paragraph. We know she's an accountant. We know her age, we know she's a writer. She's about to go on a very serious adventure, very compelling adventure. And the motivation is not super compelling, which is determined to finally do something for herself. I don't know if that's intentional, but it's not a motivation I love to see because it just feels very plot convenient. It just feels like, you know, in the beginning of the story, it just so happens that she decided to do something for herself. There was no pressure. However. However, right after she decided to do something for herself, we have the very tragic thing that happened to the brother, right? And then I started reading that and I was like, oh, this is going to be a disruption. And we're going to see the protagonist having to deal with something that's going to connect to the. The journey of the race. But it didn't. We went into the plot points about the brother and we learned that her mom was being really difficult. And we learned that she decides to finally leave her brother in the care of professionals and then go to the race. So think about it with me in terms of psychology, of storytelling. The protagonist was about to go on a trip to race. She couldn't go. There was a disruption. She had to deal with something else. So now she's dealing with something else. And then she goes back to the original point of going to the race. And as she goes back to the original point, nothing has changed that affects the race yes, of course, internally she's so much more sad because her brother went through this tragic thing. But that is not enough. If you're going to tease us and say she's about to get on a plane and then you're going to make her not get on a plane, whatever happens in between her actually leaving the plane and coming back to the plane needs to be huge and needs to really put pressure on her. So, for example, let's say the brother controlled the family's finances, right? And the brother was an ally of hers. And now since the brother is in a hospital, her mom is now controlling the finances, so her mom cuts her off. So by the time she's back in the plane, now she's back in the plane with no money, you know, so that totally changes the stakes, especially in a situation like horseback riding where you need a lot of money to compete. This is just an example that obviously won't fit your story, but it speaks to the psychology of storytelling, which is if you're going to stop your protagonist from doing something we're all expecting them to do, like get on a plane and insert a disruption, that disruption needs to complicate not only their internal lives, but the external plot points. It is very important that that happens. Another thing too is again, and I don't know if this is intentional, but you ended the plot paragraph with a line that reads, carol confronts her guilt, grief, repressed history of sexual assault from one of her mother's many past boyfriends, as well as more immediate dangers of near feral horses, wild dogs, flash floods in extreme weather. So you're essentially telling me that the climax of the story is her going through all these things in her mind and all these things that nature, all these nature challenges, right? Like the floods and stuff. It's a matter of taste. But I think that's doing your story a disservice. Like, I just don't believe that that's the climax of your story. You know, I think you're ending this plot paragraph in the wrong way. I think you can remove that altogether, frankly. Like, whatever she's going through internally, we will find out when we read the story. And also when it comes to like the origin story of you always being a writer, you loving horses, I definitely think we need to know you're a writer because I love stories set in competitive subcultures and the fact that the author has a personal connection to that subculture, amazing. But we absolutely do not need the, you know, long explanation about the disturbing self reflection and, you know, the harrowing raised. Keep that. Keep that for your author interviews. It's awesome. Like, I love it, but it does not belong in the query letter. The query letter should be very short and very salesy. And this is quite long at 522 words. So, anyway, I recommend revisiting this.
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B
Something I want to suggest, which is just riffing off of something that happens to me quite often is every time I donate blood, I faint afterwards. And it doesn't matter how many crackers and how much juice I have or whatever. It happens every single time. So I'm also thinking she could go to see the brother, be asked to give blood to the brother. And she gets up, is very dizzy, trips and falls, perhaps hits her head. Now we've got a medical complication or an injury that is going to affect her performance as she goes off to do this race. Some kind of injury where they're like, no, you need to stay and be treated. And she's like, no, I've got to be out of here. Which ups the stakes as she goes to compete in something with some physical ailment or injury that now makes it that much harder. So something to also consider. Okay, Carly, will you let us know what was in the pages?
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C
All right, so we start with our protagonist or narrator explaining how much money everything costs and what they need in order to kind of organize themselves for the race. Going through the GPS, $15,000 is how much it costs and the gear that they need and where they're going to stop along the way in terms of the houses from the Mongol people that will house them. Then we get into her work environment where she is sitting at her desk with her Excel spreadsheets. She is thinking, you know, she's very excited about the race, but she's also very nervous because she needs to ask for permission. Off she not exactly sure what to say, but she says, I'm doing the Mongol Derby. The woman who manages their office is a bit confused. Never heard of it. And then once she kind of looks it up and says, like, oh, I don't think we're going to give you the time off. Da, da, da, da, da. You need three weeks off. That's too much time. She looks it up, and she kind of just like laughs in Carol's face that, like, my God, you're going to do that. It's not very nice to her. She also has to tell her family her mother is calling her with issues that she has to deal with with an ex boyfriend. And then we see why Carol is the point person and the brother can't be the point person. But in general, we just kind of get an office setting where, you know, she's deciding whether she can go on this race.
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B
Okay, right, give us your take on that.
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C
All right, so the first page is just a repetition of this kind of concept of it costing $16,000. And so she says $16,000 supplied 25 horses and an opportunity to die. It bought a saddle, but not stirrups and leathers. And it kind of goes through again, the gps, you know, and everything that she kind of needs. I think we repeat, 16,000 too much. I really like the first line, and I like the second half of the paragraph where it talks about the breaches, because most of all, you need breeches. Breeches you can ride in, sweat in, swim in, run in, sleep in. Because if you're able to keep your ass in the tack, you wouldn't be able to change those breaches. For 10 to 14 days, $16,000 did not guarantee a place at the finish. In fact, going by past averages, half the writers would not finish. So I like. I like part of this. I don't like all of it. I think it's just too much of a repetition of the 16,000. Another thing I was thinking is, since she's an accountant, and I think the idea is that she's focused on the numerical element of this. Can't there be other ways to break this down, like percentages or data or. I don't know. I just. The repetition of 16,000 was just a little bit. One note for me, I would have loved her to kind of get into, you know, she built an entire projection lab spreadsheet about the chances of her actually finishing this race. Something a little bit more, I don't know, complex based on her presumably excellent Excel skills. All right. And so I mentioned this in the query letter, but it does bother me that I don't know where they are. I don't know why this is bothering me so much. I couldn't figure out, other than this, like, office setting, which, I'm going to be honest, is really boring. It's kind of this, like, accountant office. No offense to all of our accountant listeners. We love you all so dearly. I could never do that job. Love to you. They're sitting. I just imagine y', all, like, sitting at your desk, just punching little Excel spreadsheets all day, and it seems boring. Guys, I'm just really sorry.
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A
Can I just say, we have to change our show name. We're now, like, the Accountant Bullies. Like, it's what we do. We diss on accountants. Like, we are always saying, oh, it's not like accounting. And then it's like, I do it too, by the way. I'm probably the one who does it the most. Accountants, we're sorry. We apologize.
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C
Yeah, we are very sorry. I am sure your day is thrilling. I'm sure you love color coding your spreadsheets. I think it's a lot of do, do, do, do, do, do, do, and then Excel, and then you like turn something into a pie chart and then it's like, do, do, do, do, do.
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B
You were saying it seems like a
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C
lot of do, do, do.
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B
And I was like, as is writing, except we just get to make shit up, whereas the accountants can't make shit up. That's the only difference I know.
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C
And so, okay, so I just Im beep, boo, beep, boop. And then she, like goes over to her manager and was like, I would like time off, please. And so it just seemed like such a classic office setting with no surprises, based in a career where there probably also are very few surprises. And so when we think about what Cece's laughing at me. I don't mean your career is not full of surprises. I mean, maybe your day to day job doesn't surprise you. I'm sorry for all the hate mail we're gonna get. Sorry. Sorry. Love you all.
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B
I just want the record to show that I'm pretty sure the main character, Jason Bateman from Ozark, was like an accountant dude. And that was thrilling as f. Okay, see, I can do it as well. Like Kali. I can talk about MFers and thrilling as if. So I think there are accountants out
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C
there thrilling MFers too. Okay. We believe in you.
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A
We believe in you. We believe in you.
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C
Everybody's going to submit to us. Accountant, protagonist now. So it seemed like a very classic office setting. And what I was hoping for was just a little bit more excitement. And also, as I said, with the setting being so classic off. This is where I was going on this tangent. With the setting being very classic office setting. I would just love a bit of the contrast of, you know, is it in the kind of a classic office building or is it in something different? Or how far does she has to go to get to her horse? Because a lot of times if you live in a city, sometimes you're taking an hour and a half commute to get to your horse, which, you know, lives on a farm somewhere else. I know people who have to travel to see their horse who is in a barn somewhere. Else. So I guess I'm just trying to figure out like spatially what's going on because it felt very like container. And knowing that we're going to travel the world in this book, I just wasn't feeling the tension and the contrast of the environment here because I also don't think she knows what she's getting herself into. And I think this is very underplayed that like she's under. Probably under. I mean, I'm. I'm also hoping she's underprepared because that makes for a more interesting book. So I'm presuming she's kind of under prepared, potentially under financed based on this fact that she keeps focusing on the money. And I think everybody's great ideas about how do we complicate the situation, whether it's financial or injuries, I think that should come into play as well. So it was just really classic. Like again, going to ask the, the boss for time off and there's no consequences to her being away that I can see. You know, she says somebody can, can cover her for the three weeks. The boss is like, really? But, you know, nobody seems to be like, oh, we have a huge project. Like, the timing of this race is not great. Everything's due at year end, blah, blah. Whatever accounts talk about, it's year end, it's end of quarter, it's tax season, there are deadlines in accountant world where you have something going on. And so I think that this should all be connected where it's actually terrible time for her to take time off. It's like alluded to, maybe it's a busy time, but it has to be a bad time to take time off. All this to say we're probably not starting in the right place because I just don't think that we are. I just don't think that something so straightforward can be where we need to start. And knowing what's coming in the book, obviously there's more family drama. You know, there's the brother's health issue that comes up here and she has a big travel extravaganza ahead of her to get to this race. I just don't believe we're starting in the right place. I would love it. You know, again, this is just Carly throwing out ideas if something like her mom had to drop her off at work. And her mom, as we know, is like very chaotic and very unhelpful. And knowing that, you know, put her in some situations of abuse, like we're just not sure about this mom daughter dynamic. And also she Seems to have a strong hold on her, even though she's kind of in her mid-20s by now. Anyway, I would love it if the mom has to, like, drop her off at work that day or something like that and is messing everything up and there's this tension in the car or something, because we get the idea that the. The mom calls her, but I don't really think we're just causing enough problems. And I think this mom really has to cause a lot of problems at work or she has to quit her job in order to do this Mongol race. There has to be more that happens here. If this has to be the starting place. I have a hard time believing that this has to be the starting place. I'd be curious about what other options this author has for places to start, because I just don't think we've kind of. We've nailed it down because there's just not really any consequences to anything that's happened so far.
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B
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, and stakes are so important as well, like what will happen if she doesn't do this, what will happen if she does do this, etc. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.
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A
All right, so from the first page, the sixteen thousand dollar echo makes me think of literary fiction for sure. Which, again, to my point about the query letter, what is this? I would remove it entirely. I agree that there are parts of it that are good. I mean, it's not that it was very well written, don't get me wrong. But if it's upmarket fiction, let's make sure that we're sticking to the conventions of upmarket fiction. You know, if I go to an Italian restaurant, I'm expecting Italian food. Like, if a. If a reader picks up upmarket fiction, they're expecting a certain level of engagement from the very first page. And I don't think this is it. I do love the echo. I do like. I do love the writing, but I don't think it's the right introduction to your story. I really liked the line after the first line break. Carol didn't know when the numbers had turned on her. I think that's a very strong first line. I would isolate it, and that could be a strong first line for a different chapter. For example, I would just make sure that the numbers turning on her is actually a real thing. Because on the next page, what we actually learn is that the numbers, their power had worn off. Her fellow accountants started to annoy her. And that to me, that feels plot convenient. Like when the numbers turn on you I'm expecting pressure. I'm expecting a betrayal. Like, I'm expecting something, you know, more serious and more external. It's not like all of a sudden they're annoying her, because that feels plot convenient and it feels too internal and doesn't feel as compelling as I would want it to be. Of course, it's a matter of taste, right? Like, different people have different tastes. I also think that. And again, I don't know if this is intentional or not, but we have her talking to Glenda. We also have her mom. There's a reference to her mom calling her and saying some. Something that I think is actually quite serious, which is that their dog was kidnapped. And she's just like, oh, mom being annoying. And I'm like, do you want me to dislike this person massively? Like, I know she thinks that the dog isn't in danger, but, like, first of all, do you have no heart? That was my first question. The mom needs to be going after the dog too, right? It shouldn't just be Carol. But again, this is a very CC thing. But I was reading this. I literally wrote in my notes, like, this is very urgent. Baby Petunia, stop everything that you're doing and go get baby Petunia. Nothing could keep me from rescuing my dog. Like, my dog is in heaven, but if my dog were here, I could have a meeting with the Queen of England, also in heaven, and I would not go to the meeting with a zombie queen. I would go save my dog. So I don't understand what Carol is doing. To be perfectly frank, I worry. I worry that, yes, we're not starting in the right place, but also, in addition to that, is her lack of emotion intentional because she is an accountant? I know a lot of people, they want to write characters that don't feel in the same way that most of us feel. And they try to add a lot of rationalizations, a lot of interiority to kind of make them sound quirky or. Or someone who rationalizes a lot. Right. There's still a place for emotion, though. And here there's just isn't any emotion. She's talking to Glenda. There's no emotion. She's thinking about her mom. There's no emotion. She's thinking about Petunia. There's no emotion. Even when she thinks about the race, there's no emotion. Like, the only emotion we get is that she's annoyed by her accountants, and we have no reason why she's all of a sudden annoyed. I think that hyper focusing on rat can. Can Be awesome as long as you also add emotion. I do think it's intentional. We were talking about, like, accountants who have high, you know, profile jobs, like Jason Bateman. There's also Ben Affleck's movie that is literally called the Accountant. And then I think there's the Accountant, too. Like the sequel. He's also an accountant, but he uses his brain, like, his different brain in a way that's, like, super compelling. I don't think we have. Maybe we do, and I just don't know. But I don't think we have a story that's all about, like, a female accountant, you know, that uses her brain, her special brain to go on this adventure. And this could be it. You know, we just were. As we record this, it's February 4th. We just came back from the deep dive where Katrina said, you know, we're always looking for the female version of X, which, again, we do not like that we live in this world. But whatever. If Hollywood wants it, let's. Let's give Hollywood what they want. When I'm saying we don't like living in this world, I mean, like, there shouldn't be a female version of X. It should just be, like, a woman being, you know, empowered in her own right. But I don't know. I think there's, like, potential here because of the subculture, the horse equestrian subculture, her job, because of the contrast that you could have from someone who supposedly has a boring profession, but actually has an interesting secret life, inner life, or goes on an adventure. So there is potential. I just don't think the author is executing the potential in a way that, to my taste, resonates. When you look at wish lists, agents, wish lists across the board, there's always a reference to emotionally charged stories, stories that give you all the feels, stories that really grip you and don't let go. What we're saying in all these things is we want the emotions in your story to be so. So raw and visceral and intense and different degrees for different genres. Right. Like, the expectations for Rom com are different from the expectations of a thriller, for sure. But it's all. It all should be emotionally charged. And here I almost wish the author were here so I could ask her, like, did you make her seem unfeeling on purpose? Because I think it is on purpose, and I don't think it should be. It's just my two cents.
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B
Thank you, Cece. Okay, before we move to our next query letter, first, a word from our sponsors.
- [28:18]
C
It is my 10th wedding anniversary. This year and my husband and I are planning on what we want to do to celebrate. When we got married, two 20 somethings fresh out of grad school just starting their careers, we did not want to invest in a big honeymoon. It felt kind of irresponsible when we wanted to buy a house and all those grown up things. Fast forward to 2026 and we are planning a wine tour in Italy. If you have travel coming up then join me in using Rosetta Stone to learn some new local languages there's something about spring that feels like a reset, fresh energy and that motivation to try something new and imagine arriving for your trip actually understanding the language I'm talking about ordering confidently, connecting with locals and feeling immersed instead of just visiting. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb the language without memorizing random vocabulary lists. You learn by connecting words, visuals and meaning in context. Plus their true accent technology gives you real time feedback on your pronunciation so you sound more natural. Whether you have five minutes or an hour, you can access lessons from your desktop or the mobile app. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com today today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today now and begin your language learning journey. Is anyone else running out of places to store their books? I did a big organizational and closet clean out this weekend and I'm so glad I got a new bookshelf from Wayfair to stack all my books and make them look pretty. Make your home work better for you and fall in love with it all over again with new items from Wayfair that give you real solutions to your home needs. Whether your aesthetic is mid century modern, contemporary or eclectic, Wayfair makes it easy to find what fits your style. I love how easy it was to narrow down exactly what I needed for my living room size restrictions and price point using their filters and reviews. I personally love contemporary and modern furniture that still has an old world feel. My new bookshelf looks and functions perfectly in my house, making my space feel so much more organized. From furniture to decor to outdoor essentials and organizational solutions, you can upgrade your space with quality pieces that work within your budget. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home, all Right, Cece, we're
- [30:30]
B
handing it across to you for your query letter.
- [30:33]
A
Let's do this. Dear Cece, I am pleased to introduce Catch the girl, my dual POV historical sports romance. Complete at 90,000 words, this novel will appeal to fans of Mariana Zapata's From Lukav With Love, Anne Adams, Racing Hearts, and Cat Sebastian's yous Should be so Lucky. I notice you're looking for novels with feminist themes and neurodivergent writers, so I think my book will fit your list perfectly. It's the 1970s. Women shouldn't can't run long distances. There's no Olympic ladies marathon. Stores don't carry women's running shoes. There's no such thing as a sports bra. But still, Jo Schwartz just can't stop running. Newly divorced, she's determined to be the first woman to finish the Western America Hundred Miler. It won't be easy. WA traverses California's harshest terrain in the heat of summer, and runners must complete the course in under 24 hours. Then there's the competition. Primarily Mike Pritchard, who Jo runs into while training. Literally. She almost runs him over. After making sure he doesn't have a concussion, she decides he's rude and crabby. For his part, Mike is embarrassed and just wants to be left alone. Newly sober, he's focused on winning wall. Both Joe and Mike earn spots at an elite training camp. But upon arrival, there's only one cabin for them both. The ensuing battle of the sexes takes the pair to new speeds, Then to an unexpected steamy romance. Jo's just starting to believe she can have it all. A victory at WA and a future with Mike, when she discovers he's concealed another competitor's plot to sabotage her. With dreams hanging in the balance, they both have to decide how far they're willing to go and to be the best, and if their love can go the distance. A female ultra marathoner runner myself, I have completed many races from 50 kilometers to 100 miles as a writer. My work can be found in Vanity Fair, the Boston Globe, the Guardian, Ultra Running magazine, and my debut, Fitz Uprising, is set to be published in 2026 by traditional publisher Literary Wanderlust. Additionally, I was the winner of Histories Inquiries, Medieval Writing Challenge and Manuscript Academy's Agent Choice Award. As requested. Please find the first five pages attached. The full manuscript is available upon request, and thank you for your time and consideration. Sincerely, J E Rizzo. 386 words.
- [33:00]
B
Thank you, Cece. Wow, two great bios today. Okay, what was your take on that query letter.
- [33:05]
A
All right, so I took a look at the comps, and I think that the author did a really good job choosing from Lukov with Love. Like, it has really strong sales, and I can see the parallels between the stories. I'm not familiar with Racing Hearts because it hasn't published yet. Like, I was able to see the pitch copy for it online, and I see the parallels between the story that we just don't know what kind of book it's set up to be. But I think that's totally fine, because her next comp, you should be so lucky, is also a solid comp. The first paragraph, which establishes the story's world. Like the 1970s, women can't do this. Women can't do that. But then there's Jo. That was really good because it set up the macro like, this is the world that we're in. These. These are the socio frameworks that the protagonist is up against. And it zoomed in and gave us her name. A lot of people would have written that exact paragraph. And our substack supporters should take a look at the paragraph right now, as they're listening to me without that last line, the line, but still, Joe Schwartz can't stop running. And it wouldn't have been bad, but it wouldn't have been as good. It's really important to do the macro micro, macro micro, because it tells me this is the person I'm imprinting to. This is the protagonist whose head I'm going to inhabit. And that's a really powerful thing in storytelling. I loved the plot paragraph. I'll be honest, when I read a plot paragraph like this one, where it's telling me, you know, she's newly divorced, this is her goal. This is the complication. Like, this is the trope. Like, it's so in keeping with the genre and with the expectations that my brain already has an idea of what I'm about to get into. But I'm also curious enough that I have no idea. So it's this contradiction, it's this paradox that agents feel where it's like, I'm now craving this dish, but I've never actually tried this dish. I just think it's going to be like this other dish that I loved. And I want more of that because I'm salivating for that. So that was really excellent. I thought that the author paragraph was good. I will be honest. The fact that your debut is about to come out and we don't know how it's going to do or not is going to make Agents, or potentially could make agents think to themselves, okay, this is not a person. That is a debut. Like, by the time I start representing them, this won't be a debut. So we will be up against a track record. We will have to figure that out. This publisher, I don't know them, and so I don't really. I can't really speak to them or what track records they have in terms of breaking out books, but that is something that's always in an agent's mind. Personally, this is specific to me. I would still very much request the manuscript, still very much read it, because I would be very curious, given the excellent plot paragraph. But it is something to consider, right to everyone out there who's like, I don't know what I want to do in terms of, like, my career. Do I first debut with a publisher that doesn't perhaps require an agent, and then I try to find an agent? Like, this is always a conversation that should be running through your mind so that you can make your own decision using your own critical thinking and also thinking about your goals.
- [35:50]
B
Thank you, cece. Okay, Kali, handing it across to you now.
- [35:54]
C
All right. Cece did a great job with the summaries there. I also agree. The cat, Sebastian, you should be so lucky as a quote, great comp. Because I was a little worried at first. Are there enough historical romances that are sports romances but aren't like, quote unquote, a historical romance, if that makes sense, like Regency romance. So it's actually really hard to find comps like this. I'm really glad that you were able to find. You should be so lucky. I haven't read it, but I want to now, so I'm. I'm thrilled about that comp. I think that's great placement there. The paragraph that CeCe mentioned is really voicey, and I just want to, like, guard against, you know, for other people reading this or listening to this, being like, I can write a really voicey pitch, too. Voicy is really hard. And as cece said, everybody go back to our substack. Check this out, because this is a really great paragraph. The next paragraph isn't as voicey. It's not a bad thing. But there is a bit of a difference between the two. Just to flag that I am a little bit worried that I'm not seeing a big third act twist here. It seems quite simple. Like, why did you just leave them in the dust? What do they need to give up to actually be happy? Should we actually be worried about the sabotage? As I said, I'm just. I'm not really sure. Maybe, maybe this person isn't sharing the third act twist and that's okay. I personally love a one bed, AKA like one cabin. And you both have to stay in it. I love a one bed trope. That's one of my favorite romance tropes. I love the Honeymooners. That's one of my. One of my favorite one bed romances.
- [37:21]
B
Love it.
- [37:22]
C
But I'm a little bit worried, like, is that all we have here for, you know, potential drama? Just flagging. It could be more in the book, but you're just not sharing it. But that came up to me. Okay, the author bio paragraph. This is going to lead to a lot of questions from the agent. You know, a potential agent, as Cece said, like, did you have an agent for that book? You know, how's everything going with your career? What genre was that book? Because it's like a little bit unclear. So I think there's going to be a lot of questions there. Just, just flagging that. Is there anything you can do to be a bit more clear about the genre of the book? I also haven't heard of the publisher, and I also feel like if you have to say traditional publisher, literary wanderlust, like, are you trying to say it's not hybrid? Why are you spelling out that it's a traditional publisher? I'm just a little bit like, question mark about that. So I think that's going to lead to a lot of questions, just so you know. And then winner of the history inquiries Medieval Writing Challenge. This doesn't seem like it has anything to do with your genre. I'm a little bit worried about that too, because to me, again, it could be that it's just called the Medieval Writing Challenge, and it has nothing to do with medieval fiction, but you're writing a romance. And so I just wasn't seeing the connection here. So if it's not clear, I would probably suggest cutting that. I'm just flagging it.
- [38:34]
B
Great, Carly, thank you. All right, Cece, let's go to those pages and what's in them?
- [38:39]
A
Okay, so she is running. She is running. She's running. She's running. There are men behind her. She's thinking to herself, if I can do this, I can do it at Western America. Think about the finish line. She hears her mom's voice in her head. She hears Brian's voice in her head. But she makes it very clear that Brian does not get an opinion anymore. And she does not name Splaine Brian. And then she hears her best friend's voices in her head. There's a noise, branches cracking. And she almost drops her flashlight because it's nighttime. And she's thinking to herself, oh, it could be a murderer. And then she's like, I can't stop. I can't stop. I can't stop. And she thinks there's a flashback where she's with her at the time husband and I should have said this in the beginning. I'm sorry. Content note for pregnancy loss. Please take care when listening. We learned that she was pregnant and unfortunately lost the baby. And her husband blamed her because she ran so much. It wasn't healthy. And he's no longer in her life. And she's thinking that when she wins, if she manages to win, he might find out. And that, you know, makes her feel better that he could find out. And, yeah, she's just. She stops at the rest point for a little break and keeps. Keeps running.
- [39:49]
B
Okay, so big question. Are we starting in the right place? What do you think of the pages?
- [39:54]
A
Okay, so from the top. Okay, there's a line. Night has fallen, but I'm still running. There are 41 men somewhere behind me, and if I can beat them tonight, maybe, just maybe, I can do it at Western America. The thing to consider is, when this book is published, the reader will most likely have read the pitch copy before they start reading it. Right. Like, very few readers actually start reading the first line without any sense of what the book is about. The COVID also does a lot of the work, and so I worry when I see a starting point that is very on the nose. This is a thousand percent a matter of taste. Are there books out there that do well, successful books that are too on the nose? For me, absolutely. Okay, so I'm just sharing my taste. These pages are establishing, like, literally, for five pages, this person is up against the fact that she's the only woman doing this. It's really hard. It means a lot to her. Running is important. There is sexism in the world. She's fighting sexism. She keeps running. And then there's also the added layer of the backstory, which is, of course, very tragic and very heartbreaking to me. It's all very out of the open, all very straightforward. I need more seduction. I need more subtlety. There was potentially one comment that made me think, maybe there's something here. It was a look that said, along with the angry memory of the men's faces at the starting line. But then when she thinks back to the starting line, because it happens A few pages later, it's all very like, you know, tepid. It's all very like, oh, the men, you know, the men didn't know what to make of her. But not a big deal. And I'm like, I don't know. The best starting point has to contain a disruption that reveals layers of power dynamics, interesting layers of power dynamics. And there is no disruption here. Now, I imagine if the author were here, she might say, hey, what about the noise in the woods, the branches? And it could be a serial killer. That is actually not a disruption because nothing actually, actually happens. But also it's not a disruption that is in keeping with your genre's expectations. Tonally, it doesn't match. Like, if this were a thriller, a cracked branch and the fact that it's, I don't know, a rabbit and not really a human could do the job of creating that dread or that fear, that very initial fear, pre disruption, because it's a thriller. So tonally, that is the expectation of a thriller. But this isn't a thriller, right? This is a rom com. And so the idea that she's like alone in the woods, running, I. I don't know. I. I don't think it's starting in the right place at all. I think there's too much explanation. Like there's no mystery about anything. Because even the Brian part, like, we find out what, what the issue was and what happened all in five pages. So by the time I finish these pages, I don't have any questions left. I'm thinking to myself, okay, like, obviously there's a question of will she run the marathon. But these pages didn't introduce any questions that I am now hungry and salivating to for the answer. Also, I want to say this. I was not considering running ever. But after these pages, I would never run. Seriously, running is dangerous. I'm just confused. Oh, there's also another thing. Speaking of dangerous and confused, there's a. At a point, so page two, she's thinking to herself, there is an aid station in about two miles. I can't stop running. Can't sit down, can't even lay down. Maybe they'll have a blanket. I can sleep.
- [43:07]
C
Sleep.
- [43:08]
A
I'm jolted back to the present. Did I drift off? She's running as she's thinking this. Do people drift off when they're running? I don't think they do.
- [43:16]
C
So I want to chime in because I actually really liked that part. Because if you're running for that while
- [43:21]
A
you're running, is that what you do?
- [43:22]
C
Like you start, but. But she's. She's entering that, like, runner's euphoria or complete psychosis. Like, I would have loved for her to go farther into the psychosis because
- [43:32]
A
when you were running to yourself, did you drift? Did I drift off?
- [43:36]
C
I don't do that. I don't do ultra marathons. But, like, when your body isn't off,
- [43:41]
A
though, if they're running, that makes no sense.
- [43:44]
C
It's the psychosis. It's like that, like, otherworldliness that she's
- [43:47]
A
been exercising for 24 hours because then I have insomnia. So all start sleeping healthy.
- [43:52]
C
Hallucinogenics. It's cc.
- [43:54]
B
The only thing you are ever going to run to and not run from is a bear. But anyway, yes. No, I have heard of the same psychosis, Carly.
- [44:02]
C
So that case like that I would have loved way more psychosis. Okay, a couple notes that I had. And I know we're running short on time because we were very chatty on our first one, which is okay. I don't think that we are focusing enough on the plottiness of the book because I think we're focusing a lot on the historical context. I don't think that her ambition is framed as something that's revolutionary because it's again, kind of baked into this concept of this is a woman runner in the 1970s. La Dee Da dee da against all these men. It's all expected. It's all historically accurate. So I'm kind of wondering about, like, why are we reading this as a novel and not as a historical text? And I haven't found an answer to that yet. For example, in the second paragraph, we're talking about her boobs. And I'm like, why are we talking about boobs on the first pair and the first, you know, page of this about. And she. The idea is that the sports bra that she had to manufacture out of jock straps is because sports bras weren't invented, is causing this itch. And I'm like, okay, there's a million other ways to kind of explain the things that are bothering you when you're running. But why were we going to boobs in the second paragraph here? I didn't. I don't know. I just felt like the whole point was so that she could say, because sports bras weren't invented. These are just some things where I just wasn't able to kind of fully get into the moment because I really did feel like, why is this fiction? And why wouldn't I just read a historical piece about this I didn't really find an answer to that. I think there's a lot of good pieces in here. I loved. As I said, I love the psychosis. I think we should go way deeper on that. But I felt like we were leaning a bit more on factual business, and the run felt a bit like therapy. And again, I don't think that was the right place to start.
- [45:44]
A
Okay, narcolepsy. When people are running. I learned something new today. I didn't know. I didn't know it was a thing. I didn't know it was a thing. I might. I might have to pick it up after all. So I can sleep.
- [45:53]
B
Carly and Cece, thank you, as per usual, for your wonderful insights. Next week we'll be going to the author interview. For those of you who want to submit for books with hooks, head to our website, the Shit About Writing, and you can submit there. If you submitted a while ago and still haven't heard anything, feel free to revise and resubmit. Okay, everyone, have a good one. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.