Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: When Characters Collide with Conflict

Date: March 12, 2026
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the crucial interplay between character motivation, conflict, and stakes—particularly how internal and external challenges collide to drive storytelling. Through their signature “Books with Hooks” segment, agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra critique two fresh query letters and opening pages from emerging writers. Listeners can expect practical, honest advice on crafting compelling plots, developing character flaws and stakes, and nailing the all-important first pages in both literary and upmarket fiction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Query Critique 1: "25 Horses" (Upmarket/Literary Fiction)

Query Letter Analysis

[03:28 - 08:09]

Strong Points:
- The author’s background is robust (PhD, published, conference recognition, teaching).
- “You can tell this is a creative writing professor who’s very particular about their words.” (Carly, 03:28)
Weak Points:
- Lacking “comps” (comparative titles) and the title sounds “potentially nonfictiony.”
- Too much plot summary, not enough pitch: “I feel like I'm being told a lot of things...not being pitched or really sold something.” (Carly, 04:45)
- The setting isn’t clear—is it contemporary or historical? The contrast between “home” and Mongolia is missing atmosphere.
- Advice: Trim the “why I wrote this” paragraph and bios for conciseness; put publications and credentials on a website hyperlink instead.

Genre, Stakes, and Plot Structure

[08:13 - 13:38]

CeCe’s Insight: Mixing upmarket and literary language can be confusing for agents:
- “It does flag something to agents, which is this person doesn’t necessarily know what she’s writing. And you want to have clarity in that, I think.” (CeCe, 08:38)
- Motivation feels “plot convenient” and not urgent—her decision to do the race doesn’t feel pressured or tied to consequential stakes.
- Key storytelling psychology: if you introduce a disruption (like her brother’s crisis), it should change not just the internal life but also external plot points and stakes (ie, money gone, injury, consequences).
Quote:
- “If you’re going to stop your protagonist from doing something ... that disruption needs to complicate not only their internal lives, but the external plot points. It is very important that that happens.” (CeCe, 10:42)
Origin story is strong, but query should be “short and very salesy”—keep bio details and reflections for interviews.

Book Opening Pages

[14:34 - 23:06]

Summary:
- Opens with narrator/MC listing costs and gear for the Mongol Derby. She’s an accountant, requesting time off at a boring office.
Critique:
- Too much repetition (“$16,000”) and numerical listing; opportunity to show more of MC’s personality using creativity with numbers.
- Setting is vague—where is the character, what is the home context, how does it contrast with the adventure ahead?
- The initial scene feels “classic office, no surprises” with minimal stakes or obstacles—“I have a hard time believing that this has to be the starting place.” (Carly, 21:49)
- Absence of emotional connection and stakes: why does this matter, and what will happen if she succeeds or fails?
Notable Moment:
- Hosts humorously apologize to accountants after joking about the profession’s lack of excitement (particularly memorable for the banter) (17:51-19:18).

Emotional Depth & Characterization

[23:06 - 28:11]

CeCe flags absence of emotional stakes: MC reacts flatly to events—“There’s no emotion, even when she thinks about the race...I think that hyper focusing on rationality can be awesome as long as you also add emotion.”
Suggestion to “lean into emotion” and to explore the internal life beyond stoicism or numbed rationality.

Query Critique 2: "Catch the Girl" (Historical Sports Romance)

Query Letter Analysis

[30:33 - 35:49]

Strong Points:
- Good use of comps (“From Lukov With Love,” “You Should Be So Lucky”).
- Macro-to-micro introduction: 1970s context, then focus on protagonist Jo Schwartz—a nice touch of “voice.”
- Plot paragraph lands tropes and challenges, giving both familiarity and curiosity: “It’s this contradiction, it’s this paradox that agents feel; I’m now craving this dish, but I’ve never actually tried this dish.” (CeCe, 33:47)
Potential Issues:
- Debut coming out with a small publisher (“Literary Wanderlust”) will raise questions about author’s track record and career trajectory for possible future agents.
- Winning a “Medieval Writing Challenge” is potentially off-brand for a contemporary sports romance—unclear relevance.

Plot, Stakes, and Conflict

[35:53 - 38:33]

Carly enjoys the “one cabin” trope but worries the pitch is missing a big third act twist: “Is that all we have here for, you know, potential drama?”
Agents will question the genre and publisher status of the author’s debut—clarity is advised.

Book Opening Pages

[38:39 - 45:44]

Summary:
- Jo is running, men behind her, reflecting on her motivations—including a failed marriage and pregnancy loss (content note for pregnancy loss, 38:39).
- Internal monologue presents Jo’s drive, the sexist context, and allusions to her past trauma.
Critique:
- Too on-the-nose with themes—“It’s all very out in the open, all very straightforward. I need more seduction. I need more subtlety.” (CeCe, 39:54)
- Stakes need to be tied not only to her inner life but also to disruption in her outward context.
- A branch snapping in the woods as a “possible thriller-like disruption” doesn’t fit the romance tone.
- Content overload: too much is explained, “by the time I finish these pages, I don’t have any questions left.”
- Questioned the realistic psychology of “drifting off” while running; hosts discuss “ultramarathon psychosis” and call for deeper exploration of this state.
Memorable moment:
- Hosts riff on running and hallucinations, with Bianca quipping: “The only thing you are ever going to run to and not run from is a bear.” (43:53)
Carly’s take: Opening pages lean too much on historical context and “felt more like therapy.” She asks: “Why is this fiction and not a historical piece?”—urges clearer plottiness and less exposition.

Notable Quotes & Moments

On query pitching:
- “I feel like I’m being told a lot of things...not being pitched or really sold something.” — Carly, 04:45
On disrupting plot with higher stakes:
- “If you’re going to stop your protagonist from doing something ... that disruption needs to complicate not only their internal lives, but the external plot points. It is very important that that happens.” — CeCe, 10:42
On balancing literary and upmarket voices:
- “Straddling those two subgenres...is a really hard genre to pull off.” — CeCe, 08:28
On emotional resonance:
- “We want the emotions in your story to be so raw and visceral...and here I almost wish the author were here so I could ask her, like, did you make her seem unfeeling on purpose? Because I think it is on purpose, and I don't think it should be.” — CeCe, 27:25
On “one bed” trope:
- “Personally, I love a one bed, aka like one cabin, and you both have to stay in it...that’s one of my favorite romance tropes.” — Carly, 37:10
Memorable banter on accountants:
- “We’re now, like, the Accountant Bullies...I'm pretty sure the main character Jason Bateman from Ozark was like an accountant dude. And that was thrilling as f.” — Bianca, 17:51–19:00

Important Timestamps

First Query, intro & reading: 00:32 – 03:20
Carly’s critique: 03:28 – 08:09
CeCe’s critique: 08:13 – 13:38
Book opening and discussion: 14:34 – 28:11
Second Query letter & critique: 30:33 – 39:48
Discussion of opening pages: 39:54 – 45:44

Episode Takeaways

Sell, don’t just summarize: Agents want to see that you know how to position your book, not just retell the events.
Stakes, stakes, stakes: Whether literary or romance, a plot disruption should escalate both character motivation and tangible conflict.
Opening pages must intrigue: Too much explanation or “on the nose” thematics is less effective than layered, subtle hooks.
Bio and credentials: Use your author website for detailed CVs; keep query bios punchy and relevant.
Voice and genre clarity: Be deliberate about tone and genre—don’t mix signals between literary, commercial, and upmarket unless you truly straddle those conventions.

Final Thoughts

This episode delivers actionable advice for emerging writers, especially on how conflict and motivation should drive both query letters and manuscript pages. If you’re revising your opener or your pitch, you’ll find practical strategies and classic “agent brain” insight into what hooks, what doesn’t, and what it really means to position your book for today’s market—with a healthy helping of humor and camaraderie.

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: When Characters Collide with Conflict

Date: March 12, 2026
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Query Critique 1: "25 Horses" (Upmarket/Literary Fiction)

Query Letter Analysis

[03:28 - 08:09]

Strong Points:
- The author’s background is robust (PhD, published, conference recognition, teaching).
- “You can tell this is a creative writing professor who’s very particular about their words.” (Carly, 03:28)
Weak Points:
- Lacking “comps” (comparative titles) and the title sounds “potentially nonfictiony.”
- Too much plot summary, not enough pitch: “I feel like I'm being told a lot of things...not being pitched or really sold something.” (Carly, 04:45)
- The setting isn’t clear—is it contemporary or historical? The contrast between “home” and Mongolia is missing atmosphere.
- Advice: Trim the “why I wrote this” paragraph and bios for conciseness; put publications and credentials on a website hyperlink instead.

Genre, Stakes, and Plot Structure

[08:13 - 13:38]

CeCe’s Insight: Mixing upmarket and literary language can be confusing for agents:
- “It does flag something to agents, which is this person doesn’t necessarily know what she’s writing. And you want to have clarity in that, I think.” (CeCe, 08:38)
- Motivation feels “plot convenient” and not urgent—her decision to do the race doesn’t feel pressured or tied to consequential stakes.
- Key storytelling psychology: if you introduce a disruption (like her brother’s crisis), it should change not just the internal life but also external plot points and stakes (ie, money gone, injury, consequences).
Quote:
- “If you’re going to stop your protagonist from doing something ... that disruption needs to complicate not only their internal lives, but the external plot points. It is very important that that happens.” (CeCe, 10:42)
Origin story is strong, but query should be “short and very salesy”—keep bio details and reflections for interviews.

Book Opening Pages

[14:34 - 23:06]

Summary:
- Opens with narrator/MC listing costs and gear for the Mongol Derby. She’s an accountant, requesting time off at a boring office.
Critique:
- Too much repetition (“$16,000”) and numerical listing; opportunity to show more of MC’s personality using creativity with numbers.
- Setting is vague—where is the character, what is the home context, how does it contrast with the adventure ahead?
- The initial scene feels “classic office, no surprises” with minimal stakes or obstacles—“I have a hard time believing that this has to be the starting place.” (Carly, 21:49)
- Absence of emotional connection and stakes: why does this matter, and what will happen if she succeeds or fails?
Notable Moment:
- Hosts humorously apologize to accountants after joking about the profession’s lack of excitement (particularly memorable for the banter) (17:51-19:18).

Emotional Depth & Characterization

[23:06 - 28:11]

CeCe flags absence of emotional stakes: MC reacts flatly to events—“There’s no emotion, even when she thinks about the race...I think that hyper focusing on rationality can be awesome as long as you also add emotion.”
Suggestion to “lean into emotion” and to explore the internal life beyond stoicism or numbed rationality.

Query Critique 2: "Catch the Girl" (Historical Sports Romance)

Query Letter Analysis

[30:33 - 35:49]

Strong Points:
- Good use of comps (“From Lukov With Love,” “You Should Be So Lucky”).
- Macro-to-micro introduction: 1970s context, then focus on protagonist Jo Schwartz—a nice touch of “voice.”
- Plot paragraph lands tropes and challenges, giving both familiarity and curiosity: “It’s this contradiction, it’s this paradox that agents feel; I’m now craving this dish, but I’ve never actually tried this dish.” (CeCe, 33:47)
Potential Issues:
- Debut coming out with a small publisher (“Literary Wanderlust”) will raise questions about author’s track record and career trajectory for possible future agents.
- Winning a “Medieval Writing Challenge” is potentially off-brand for a contemporary sports romance—unclear relevance.

Plot, Stakes, and Conflict

[35:53 - 38:33]

Carly enjoys the “one cabin” trope but worries the pitch is missing a big third act twist: “Is that all we have here for, you know, potential drama?”
Agents will question the genre and publisher status of the author’s debut—clarity is advised.

Book Opening Pages

[38:39 - 45:44]

Summary:
- Jo is running, men behind her, reflecting on her motivations—including a failed marriage and pregnancy loss (content note for pregnancy loss, 38:39).
- Internal monologue presents Jo’s drive, the sexist context, and allusions to her past trauma.
Critique:
- Too on-the-nose with themes—“It’s all very out in the open, all very straightforward. I need more seduction. I need more subtlety.” (CeCe, 39:54)
- Stakes need to be tied not only to her inner life but also to disruption in her outward context.
- A branch snapping in the woods as a “possible thriller-like disruption” doesn’t fit the romance tone.
- Content overload: too much is explained, “by the time I finish these pages, I don’t have any questions left.”
- Questioned the realistic psychology of “drifting off” while running; hosts discuss “ultramarathon psychosis” and call for deeper exploration of this state.
Memorable moment:
- Hosts riff on running and hallucinations, with Bianca quipping: “The only thing you are ever going to run to and not run from is a bear.” (43:53)
Carly’s take: Opening pages lean too much on historical context and “felt more like therapy.” She asks: “Why is this fiction and not a historical piece?”—urges clearer plottiness and less exposition.

Notable Quotes & Moments

On query pitching:
- “I feel like I’m being told a lot of things...not being pitched or really sold something.” — Carly, 04:45
On disrupting plot with higher stakes:
- “If you’re going to stop your protagonist from doing something ... that disruption needs to complicate not only their internal lives, but the external plot points. It is very important that that happens.” — CeCe, 10:42
On balancing literary and upmarket voices:
- “Straddling those two subgenres...is a really hard genre to pull off.” — CeCe, 08:28
On emotional resonance:
- “We want the emotions in your story to be so raw and visceral...and here I almost wish the author were here so I could ask her, like, did you make her seem unfeeling on purpose? Because I think it is on purpose, and I don't think it should be.” — CeCe, 27:25
On “one bed” trope:
- “Personally, I love a one bed, aka like one cabin, and you both have to stay in it...that’s one of my favorite romance tropes.” — Carly, 37:10
Memorable banter on accountants:
- “We’re now, like, the Accountant Bullies...I'm pretty sure the main character Jason Bateman from Ozark was like an accountant dude. And that was thrilling as f.” — Bianca, 17:51–19:00

Important Timestamps

First Query, intro & reading: 00:32 – 03:20
Carly’s critique: 03:28 – 08:09
CeCe’s critique: 08:13 – 13:38
Book opening and discussion: 14:34 – 28:11
Second Query letter & critique: 30:33 – 39:48
Discussion of opening pages: 39:54 – 45:44

Episode Takeaways

Sell, don’t just summarize: Agents want to see that you know how to position your book, not just retell the events.
Stakes, stakes, stakes: Whether literary or romance, a plot disruption should escalate both character motivation and tangible conflict.
Opening pages must intrigue: Too much explanation or “on the nose” thematics is less effective than layered, subtle hooks.
Bio and credentials: Use your author website for detailed CVs; keep query bios punchy and relevant.
Voice and genre clarity: Be deliberate about tone and genre—don’t mix signals between literary, commercial, and upmarket unless you truly straddle those conventions.