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When Writing Gets Personal: Two Authors on Vulnerability and Voice

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Thu Nov 20 2025

Author Interviews Dr. Dalgleish and Dr. Lassiter

Summary

THE SHIT NO ONE TELLS YOU ABOUT WRITING

Episode: "When Writing Gets Personal: Two Authors on Vulnerability and Voice"

Date: November 20, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Cece Lyra, Carly Watters
Guests: Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, Dr. Jonathan Lasseter

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the intersection of vulnerability and voice in creative nonfiction, memoir, and self-help writing. Host/agent Cece Lyra interviews her clients, clinical psychologists and authors Dr. Tracy Dalgleish and Dr. Jonathan Lasseter, exploring their journeys as writers bringing personal stories and difficult truths to the page. The conversation covers the emotional labor, practical challenges, and strategic decisions involved in pitching, writing, and publishing books that are both intimate and socially relevant.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Invisible Work of Authorship

Dr. Tracy Dalgleish shares how her success is built on years of unseen effort, both alone and in partnership with her husband, who manages behind-the-scenes logistics ([04:15]).
The misconception that publishing a book happens overnight is dispelled: "What I've done did not just happen in the last two years. We're looking at decades at this point." – Dr. Tracy Dalgleish ([03:48]).

2. Writing Sophomore Books and Evolving Identity

Tracy discusses the shift from her first, more memoirish book to her new, direct self-help title ("You, Your Husband, and His Mother"), emphasizing her growing confidence as an author ([06:06]).
She notes being "thrilled and it's hard," experiencing both fulfillment from contribution and restlessness for the next project ([06:06]).

3. The Creative Process: Surrender, Speed, and Support

Tracy describes writing her second book swiftly, as if "the universe was providing me this book" ([07:24]).
She references Liz Gilbert's "Big Magic" to illustrate that creative ideas are out there, waiting to be pulled down when writers silence self-doubt ([07:24]).
The importance of a strong, supportive publishing/editorial team is highlighted, as Tracy transitions between publishers and credits her editor Lauren O’Neill for championing her vision ([14:25]).

4. Relatability and Relevance in Book Concepts

Cece and Tracy discuss the genesis of "You, Your Husband, and His Mother," noting their surprise at how often in-law conflicts—not money or infidelity—top the list of marital struggles ([15:52]).
Surveys revealed that while 86% of respondents denied overt in-law conflict, that was because "we want to be liked and accepted into their family...we're probably not going to tell you all of those little paper cuts that have been happening over the years." – Dr. Tracy Dalgleish ([17:14]).

5. Risk, Selection, and the Author-Agent-Editor Match

Behind-the-scenes stories about agenting, pitching, and ultimately selecting an editor. The value of finding not just any editor but the right one who “gets” the book's vision ([22:32]).
Auction dynamics and the offer of a preempt are explained in detail, providing insight into trade publishing for listeners ([18:46]).

6. Using Self-Help for Crafting Authentic Characters

Tracy plugs her book for writers, revealing how chapters on relationship cycles and inner child work can help novelists develop richer, more emotionally resonant characters ([26:48]).

7. The Emotional Demands of Writing Vulnerably

Tracy describes the hardest part of the process as aggressively short timelines, highlighting the need for family support and the unseen sacrifices authors make ([28:15]).
"The belief that your story should be told...to believe that your story needs to be told and shared, and then to just keep sharing and talking about it and writing it." – Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, on advice for aspiring nonfiction writers ([32:19]).

8. Memorable Quotes – Lightning Round on In-Law Advice

A fun, rapid-fire segment covers common (and sometimes toxic) mottos about marriage and in-laws. Tracy debunks and nuances cliches with practical, compassionate wisdom ([34:05]).
- “Never marry a mama’s boy.” – Heard it.
- “Be the bigger person and not argue with them?” – “I’ve heard that, and I think that feeds into why we get so stuck here…this idea that daughters-in-law should be obedient, and this generation is not following into that.” – Dr. Tracy Dalgleish ([35:53]).
- “Watch how he treats his mother, that's how he'll treat you.” – "That depends...there are many situations where mom is on a pedestal, but you are not given that same treatment." ([38:04]).

Segment Timestamp Guide

[03:41] – Dr. Tracy Dalgleish introduces her background and approach to writing.
[06:06] – Reflection on the journey from first to second book.
[07:24] – Tracy on creativity, imposter syndrome, and creative flow.
[10:59] – Elevator pitch for "You, Your Husband, and His Mother."
[15:52] – The real #1 cause of marital conflict: in-laws!
[18:46] – The agenting story: auctions, preempts, and choosing the right editor.
[24:27] – Who the book is (and isn’t) for—help, not “lighting your torch.”
[26:48] – How the book’s tools benefit fiction writers.
[28:15] – Challenges and rewards: family buy-in and tight deadlines.
[32:19] – Advice for aspiring nonfiction/memoir writers.
[34:05] – Lightning round: in-law cliches and real therapy wisdom.

Part 2: Dr. Jonathan Lasseter – "How I Know White People Are Crazy and Other Stories"

Key Points and Insights

1. The Search for Representation and Authenticity

Jonathan's journey started with wanting to write like his intellectual heroes (bell hooks, Cornel West) and Googling "how to get a book on the New York Times bestseller list" ([47:08]).
The initial query letter to P.S. Literary ended up in the hands of Cece, who became an enthusiastic champion for his work.

2. The Writing and Pitching Process: Learning to Tell Your Story

Moving from academic to trade prose required reframing—shifting focus from statistics and research to personal narratives and lessons. Cece: "Your voice as a storyteller...it's always been so strong" ([51:19]).
Jonathan credits his husband, Brian, for strategic support—both as a first reader and in making his proposal visually compelling ([52:57]).

3. The Realities of Publishing: Editors, Imprints, and Flexibility

Jonathan’s route to publication involved multiple editors and the collapse of an imprint. Lessons in resilience and the necessity to “pivot and adapt” in publishing ([58:13]).
Cece highlights the necessity of a positive mindset and adaptability: “Publishing will throw you curve boulders, and you have to find a way to not only get out of the way but dance while doing it—and look good” ([61:14]).

4. Publicity, Ambition, and Managing Expectations

Jonathan hired his own outside PR in addition to the publisher’s resources, learning that “for a chance, you need to bring your own village” and facing the surprise at how much authors have to hustle publicity themselves ([68:32]).
“If you want to succeed in traditional publishing, you need three things: a talent for storytelling, a talent for writing, and a winning mindset—the hardest to achieve.” – Cece Lyra ([61:14]).

5. On Vulnerability, Honesty, and Social Impact

Writing memoir and personal essays is emotionally taxing: “After writing [about crisis], I was done for the rest of the day…I was literally on the couch.” – Dr. Jonathan Lasseter ([73:49]).
Both he and Cece emphasize that compelling nonfiction requires owning imperfection and vulnerability (“No one likes a perfect person. People like messy people.” – Cece Lyra, [73:49]).

6. The Title That Almost Wasn't

"How I Know White People Are Crazy" faced publisher resistance, almost changing to "We're All Crazy." Jonathan and Cece discuss keeping the bold, honest title after political events underscored its relevance ([77:45]).
- “In the aftermath of the election, it has become clear to everyone that we are not all crazy. It’s not all of us.” – Dr. Jonathan Lasseter ([80:15])
- Cece calls this Jonathan's most brilliant move: “Standing ovation for my client here, who’s such a brilliant man anyway.” ([82:39]).

7. Celebrate Every Step, Not Just Big Milestones

Both authors reflect on the importance of enjoying the journey and not letting rigid goals (e.g. NYT bestseller status) “take away from the parts I can control and the joy of the process” ([63:29]).

8. Book Recommendations and The Power of Perspective

Jonathan recommends Yellowface: “If you want something that you can immerse yourself in, and it has a really good message about cultural appropriation and publishing…Yellowface is one of the best things I’ve read in the past year.” ([83:41])

Notable Quotes

Dr. Tracy Dalgleish: “I want to bring forward conversations that people are not having. ... I'm going to take these hard conversations and bring them forward.” ([31:01])
Cece Lyra: “The thing about publishing is you need three things—a talent for writing, a talent for storytelling, and a winning mindset. …Publishing will throw you curve boulders.” ([61:14])
Dr. Jonathan Lasseter: “No one likes a perfect person. People like messy people.” ([73:49])

Tone & Style

Playful, candid, and encouraging—hosts and guests are unguarded about the industry’s realities. The episode balances laugh-out-loud moments with reassuring advice and hard truths, making it accessible and reassuring for writers navigating their own personal material.

Takeaways for Listeners/ Emerging Writers

The path to publication, especially when writing personal or vulnerable work, is filled with unseen effort, hard choices, and emotional labor.
Support systems—both professional and personal—are essential, as are persistence, adaptability, and faith in your own story.
Candid, difficult conversations (about family, race, or ambition) are necessary both in life and writing.
Success in publishing is nonlinear; resilience and the ability to appreciate each accomplishment along the way matter more than any single accolade.
Pitching your own work—to agents, editors, the public—is a skill and a journey in itself.

Suggested Listening Order & Reference

For those interested in:

Narrative craft & emotion: Start with Dr. Dalgleish’s segment ([03:41]–[41:08]).
Industry mechanics/publishing strategy: Pay close attention to the editor/auction chat ([18:46]), agent collaboration stories ([52:57]), and the publicity discussion ([68:32]).
Bravery & keeping your voice: Focus on Jonathan Lasseter’s experience with vulnerability, titling, and social messaging ([73:49]–[82:39]).
Practical memoir/craft advice: Lightning round on in-law advice ([34:05]) and writerly takeaways from both guests ([32:19], [63:01]).

For listeners who haven’t heard the episode:
This summary covers both the inspirational and the practical—a masterclass in writing bravely about real life and strategizing success in a complex industry. You'll learn from two different authors and the literary agent who championed them, getting honest advice, support, and a healthy dose of humor along the way.

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Transcript

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Cece Lehrer (1:12)

Woohoo.

Bianca Murray (1:13)

It's deep Dive time again where we host a two day virtual retreat attended by writers from across the world. And if you haven't been monitoring our socials or subscribing to our substack, you you won't know yet that we've announced that this will be our very last Deep Dive ever. Dun dun dun. So you definitely don't want to miss it. We'll be focusing on giving you access to a whole host of agents and editors who have worked on some of the last decade's best selling books, building a bridge between you and the so called gatekeepers of publishing. Subscribe to our substack or follow us on Instagram so you can be the first to be in the know as we begin to reveal our incredible lineup. Each week, mark these dates in your calendars. The Deep Dive will happen on 31 January and 1 February, with pre and post Deep Dive sessions happening the weekends before and after. And make sure you have 12pm Eastern Time on the 21st of November marked in your calendar for the early bird registrations. Hi there and welcome to our show the Ship no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

Cece Lehrer (2:41)

Hello everyone. If you're watching us from YouTube, hi. I'm waving. Hi. If you're listening to us, hello. Welcome to. Welcome. Welcome. Today I have a very special guest. She is not just an amazing author, although of course she's that too. She's also my client. Dr. Tracy Dalgleish is here with us. I'm going to read you her bio straight up from her latest book. Dr. Tracy Dalgleish is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist and sought after relationship expert. She is the creator of Be Connected Digital where she teaches people all over the world how to have healthy relationships. Her work has been featured in outlets like the New York Times, Forbes and Time and her research has appeared in peer reviewed academic journals. She is the author of the book I Didn't Sign up for this and the host of the Top 100 Parenting Podcast. Dear Dr. Tracy, the owner of the mental health clinic Integrated Wellness. She lives in Ottawa with her husband and two children. Welcome, welcome, Dr. Tracy.

Dr. Tracy Dalgleish (7:24)

Now. I saw this thread that said it was giving the Easter eggs from Taylor Swift's antihero video to then her Life of a Showgirl album out now. And someone's saying, wow, how far in advance has this person, you know, how's this creator, this woman done? And I thought about it. I thought about some of our early conversations. You knew this was going to be my second book a long time ago. I knew this was going to be one of my books back in 2011, in one of the first experiences I write in the beginning of the book. And so it's interesting being this creator and an author, because. So there's two thoughts I want to share here. One is, it's like the creative part that Liz Gilbert talks about in Big Magic, how it's like the universe is waiting for us to just grab it and pull it down. And both of these books very much felt like that. But this book came faster. I wrote it really fast. It was almost like the words were just hanging over me and I just had to pull it down. That was the first piece that. And I love that piece of. When we sit in our creative space and we don't let the front of the brain take over, and the front of the brain does all of the. Is this good enough? What are you doing? You're a fraud. Like, that's not perfect. That's not enough. And the front of my brain was so busy writing my first book. That was one. I had to really work through this one. It just felt like I was being. And the universe was providing me this book. I knew where it was coming from. And also, too for listeners, this also comes from my almost 20 years of working with people, the clinical work that I've seen, the everyday stories, and then how I integrate that together. So there's that element there. But, Cece, I think there's this other element here with this book where this time, more so than the first time, I feel like I am ready to release this to the world. And again, going back to what Taylor Swift had said about her album and about creating art and artists, it's that I don't get to control what other people do with this now.

Cece Lehrer (18:47)

I remember one editor said, I get along with my mother in law really well, but my mom didn't, you know, like her mom hadn't. And so she understood the conflict because she had seen it between her mom and her paternal grandmother. I know another editor who said, this is someone who offered on your book, but. Or who was about to offer. We'll get to that story soon. Another editor said, I don't have a mother in law because her husband's mom had passed away, but her brother, she saw how her mom treated his wife, meaning her kind of sister in law, you know, like. And she was like, my mom is a terrible mother in law and she's a wonderful mom. I don't understand, like, how could she be a great mom and a terrible mother in law? And she often sides with her brother's wife and goes, stop. Like, stop, you're not being reasonable, mom. Anyway, point is, it doesn't have to be your relationship with your mother in law. Like, it just does not have to be for you to understand the appeal of this book. And so I was trying to find editors and so we did and we went out on submission. And again, I did have a moment where I was like, is this book going to be too niche? Because people keep telling me, I love my mother in law. Holy guacamole. Everyone wanted this book. Everyone. And their mother and their mother in law wanted this book, Everyone wanted this book. And we were all set to go to a major auction because everyone was telling me, like, I'm going to go to war for this book, et cetera, et cetera. We had lots of calls with editors, lots of calls with editors. And there was one editor, of course, who on all the calls, really stood out to. To you. And this editor decided to preempt. And so a preempt for listeners, if you're not familiar, is when an editor makes an offer, and it is understood that this offer is higher than they might normally go, with the intention of conveying the message, hey, take the book off the table. Don't go to auction. Come with me. Meaning accept this preempt versus whatever could happen at auction. And when, if an author says no, the editor might still go to auction, they usually do, but they usually make a lower offer at auction. And then it can go up or it couldn't go down. Like, obviously, many things could happen if you go to auction. It's a bigger risk. But do you remember where you.

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Dr. Jonathan Lasseter (77:45)

Yes. So I think from the very beginning, from the very first editor, there was talk about, oh, would you be open to changing the title? If it came to that? Right. And again, I'm a by any means necessary person. So I was like, sure, right. As long as the book gets out. However, I love the title. I thought it was appropriate. So if I could help it, I didn't want to change it, but again, I wanted to. The project was more important than the title, but we continue to keep it. And, you know, there is a concern about whether or not the title could sell, you know, the controversy of it and how I think mainstream organizations, companies, schools would feel about it. Would they want to bring an author to their organization or campus with a book, this title. But I felt very passionate. I still feel very passionate about. It's something that I stand behind because I think it's so appropriate. How I know White People are Crazy and Other Stories is exactly that. In it, I describe this whiteness mindset and how it makes us all crazy and how white people are the ones that benefit from it the most and how I know white people are crazy. That particular story was about me failing a diversity project as the only person of color from marginalized background. And so it was just so appropriate because in that particular case, those white people were crazy. So it really was a lesson in courage and believing in my vision and. And sticking to it. And again, it helped that you were so supportive of the title and you. And you love the title so much and, you know, also the election. The election too, because I was open to changing it. But then the election happened and I saw those post voting polls, you know, those statistics, and I'm like, oh, no, this is the white people, though. White people got us here, so we need to call it what it is. Again, this title is an act of courage. It's a. An attempt to call a thing a thing and to not shy away from the truth, or at least my truth.

Cece Lehrer (80:15)

So, yeah, I don't want to be ridiculous and get emotional, but it might be my most proud moment as an agent in terms of observing what my client has done. I remember it vividly. The title had changed to We're All Crazy Notes from a Frustrated Black Psychologist, which is not a bad title, but it is not the best title ever, which, in my opinion, is how I know why People Are Crazy is the best title ever. And then the election happened, and this was already done. Like, done. Like, we had updated emails about it. Our internal files at my former agency were updated. I updated my team. I was very sad about it. But I, like you, accepted that the book doesn't belong to Jonathan, only you, CeCe, are not the only member of the team. Like, this is a part of the larger good. Fine. Wasn't happy about it, but fine. And we were honest about not. Not loving the title change, but honest also about the strategy behind it and how, you know, everyone wants the book to succeed. And then the election happened. And I remember the email you wrote, which was the most brilliant, kind, inspiring email. I don't have it in front of me, but it essentially said it had other things. But one of the things you said was, I think in the aftermath of the election, it has become clear to everyone that we are not all crazy. It's not all of us who are crazy. So I think it makes sense to keep the title. What do you guys think? How could anyone argue with that? You know? Do you know, look at the brilliant chess playing situation that happened, right? You were like, I. I suspect it is not all of us, you know, And I was just like, round of applause. Can I please get a standing ovation for my client here, who's such a brilliant man anyway. And of course, everyone agreed because everyone was like, you know what? Excellent point. And you could tell that everyone had a moment of it wasn't that you did checkmate on them because. Because that could have been the case because it was so brilliant. But no, everyone had a legitimate epiphany where they were like, oh, yeah, we're not all crazy. And again, Chrisean is a black woman, Mahito, who. Who works under her, also a black. Like, we have a team of people of color. And people were like, yeah, yes, we. We do see what you mean, you know, and so, yeah, and the title became the title, and we have it today.