Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Writing a Voicey Novel
Date: August 28, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode centers on the elusive craft of writing a “voicey” novel and building strong character-driven narratives. Host Bianca Marais is joined by literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra, and features in-depth author interviews with Annie Hartnett (author of Unlikely Animals, Rabbit Cake, and The Road to Tender Hearts) and Gloria Chao (author of The Ex Girlfriend Murder Club and others). They discuss perspective, narrative voice, the role of omniscience, characterization, and strategies for honing a distinctive literary voice.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Makes a Novel “Voicey”?
[04:12–08:05] Annie Hartnett Interview – Defining & Capturing Voice
- Annie Hartnett explains her process: "I've always been sort of a voicey writer. It comes from my own desire to amuse myself first and then hopefully to amuse and delight readers. But I also have a very dark sense of humor, so it's not necessarily for everyone." (08:05)
- She attributes her voicey style to “letting [her] personality get into the book” and balancing humor with darkness.
- Offers advice to emerging writers: At the end of every first chapter, consider writing a paragraph that signals what the book promises—this helps anchor the narrative voice.
2. Intentionality and Breaking the “Rules”
[11:09–12:48] On Intentional Rule-Breaking
- The hosts and Annie agree that writers can break conventional rules as long as it's done intentionally.
- Quote: “You can do anything, you can break as many rules as you want. Just approach it with intentionality.” – Podcast Host (12:18)
3. Omniscient POV vs. Multiple 3rd Person POVs
[12:48–18:00] The Art (and Difficulty) of Omniscient Narration
- Annie admits omniscient narration is challenging and often “unpopular because so many people don't do it well.” (13:03)
- She shares how writing omniscient took trial and error, referencing influences like John Irving and Ann Patchett.
- “With voice... you keep trying and smashing your head against the concrete, and then one day the voice might click. I think you really feel it. It's a physical click... and then I just trust the voice.” – Annie Hartnett (17:14)
4. Unconventional Story Structure and Opening Choices
[18:00–23:03] Opening With a Secondary Character
- Annie opens her novel with a catalyst character (Dr. Gust) and a magical cat, Pancakes, rather than the main character, PJ.
- “I had to introduce the cat first because it would be too goofy to bring him in later. The rule I've heard about magic is you have to do it as soon as possible.” – Annie Hartnett (20:06)
- She uses recurring objects (like the newspaper) to link storylines in a road trip narrative where recurring characters are difficult.
5. The “Bias” Against Road Trip Books and Making Characters Active
[23:03–24:35]
- Annie discusses why she thinks some readers dislike road trip novels: “It's hard to have recurring characters; sometimes kids in them aren't active enough.”
- She subverts this by giving young characters agency: “The kids are plenty active in the book... they're not just passive characters who are, you know, at the mercy of adults.” – Podcast Host (24:35)
6. Crafting Lovable Yet Flawed Protagonists
[25:47–28:45] Humanizing Complex Characters
- PJ Halliday is crafted with contradictions and depth—generous but self-destructive, lovable but flawed.
- Annie's approach: put negative traits in the past (“eight years ago that he had these DUIs”) and give context (his daughter died, driving his actions).
- “...He is capable of growth... we want to know the villain's backstory. We want to know what happened to Cruella de Vil or whoever. The reason he has those DUIs is because his daughter died.” – Annie Hartnett (27:43)
- Vulnerability and an active struggle for redemption help readers root for PJ.
7. The Hook: Character Names, Laws, and Author Branding
[51:44–54:04, 56:00–58:07] Gloria Chao Interview Section
- Gloria Chao details her process for creating memorable, voicey protagonists, including intentional choices around names and quirks.
- “Voice really comes from character... own the weird... lean into what makes your character unique.” – Gloria Chao (47:25)
- She uses repeated motifs, like “Catherine's first law of luck,” to reinforce characterization.
8. Writing Process: From Premise to Character to Voice
[56:00–57:57]
- Gloria starts with a strong premise/hook and then designs the worst-suited character to experience it for maximum narrative tension.
- “I always want to know where they start and then where they're going to end. And it always has to be, how does this story, this specific plot, get them from point A to B?... it's just a lot of trial and error of writing to figure out their voice.” – Gloria Chao (56:00–57:57)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Narrative Voice:
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"I've always been sort of a voicey writer... Delight and like, pings of joy are what I'm trying to give readers. But I also have a very dark sense of humor, so it's not necessarily for everyone." – Annie Hartnett (08:05)
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“Disarm the audience with comedy, then punch them in the gut with drama when they least expect it.” (Phoebe Waller-Bridge, referenced by Podcast Host at 11:09)
On Points of View:
- “Omniscience is a skill because you have to be in total command of the world.” – Annie Hartnett (13:20)
- “I kept trying and trying and smashing your head against the concrete, and then one day the voice might click...” – Annie Hartnett (17:14)
On Breaking Structure Rules:
- “The rule I've heard about magic is you have to do it as soon as possible. And so the cat that can predict death had to happen as soon as possible.” – Annie Hartnett (20:06)
On Characterization:
- “When I create any character, I always, like, have contradictions.” – Annie Hartnett (25:47)
- “If I can do it, you can, too, because I didn't know anyone. I didn't have training. And so please keep at it. You can do this.” – Gloria Chao (62:03)
On Author Brand:
- “If it's the same author writing it, that is your brand. There's always going to be a few things for you that's going to be in all of your books.” – Gloria Chao (59:28)
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | Highlights | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 03:07 | Show Introduction | | | 04:12–08:05 | Annie Hartnett: Capturing Narrative Voice | Voice as self-amusement, balancing humor and darkness | | 12:48–18:00 | Omniscient POV Discussion | Omniscience, narrative cohesion, John Irving as influence | | 18:00–23:03 | Breaking Structure Rules | Starting with a catalyst/secondary character; magic setup | | 23:22–24:35 | Bias & Structure of Road Trip Novels | Defeating cliches, making characters active | | 25:47–28:45 | Crafting Flawed But Lovable Characters | Contradictions, backstory, vulnerability | | 43:19–47:25 | Gloria Chao Reading Excerpt | Example of voicey first person narration | | 47:25–54:04 | Gloria Chao: Deep Dive on Voice & Character | “Own the weird”, intentional quirks, name symbolism | | 56:00–57:57 | Gloria’s Writing Process | From premise/hook to character and voice | | 59:21–61:09 | Brand, Series Decisions, Market Considerations| Author voice as brand, sequel decisions | | 62:03 | Gloria Chao Encouragement to Writers | “If I can do it, you can too.” |
Language & Tone
The tone throughout is candid, supportive, and often humorous—mirroring the “voicey” subject at hand. The hosts embrace honesty about both the creative process and struggles in the industry. Authors offer tangible examples, practical advice, and personal anecdotes to demystify cultivating narrative voice. The episode is packed with bookish enthusiasm, witty exchanges, and actionable tips for emerging writers.
Conclusion
This episode demystifies what it takes to craft a voicey novel, underscoring that “voice” is rooted in intentional, deeply characterized narrative choices. Through first-hand accounts from Annie Hartnett and Gloria Chao, listeners are encouraged to embrace their own quirks, write with purpose, and trust their instincts—knowing, as the podcast reminds us, “it just takes one yes.”