TSC X DONALD MILLER

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast – Episode with Donald Miller

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast
• Hosts: Lauryn Bosstick & Michael Bosstick
• Guest: Donald Miller
• Episode: TSC X DONALD MILLER
• Release Date: February 24, 2025

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Introduction to Donald Miller and His Impact on Branding

In this engaging episode, Lauryn Everts and Michael Bostick welcome Donald Miller, a renowned author and branding expert, best known for his book Building a StoryBrand. Lauryn shares her personal admiration for Miller, noting how his work has significantly influenced the development of her own brand, Dear Media. The conversation sets the stage for a deep dive into effective branding, communication, and storytelling strategies that listeners can apply to enhance their personal and professional lives.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. Identifying and Articulating the Problem Your Brand Solves

   Donald Miller emphasizes the fundamental reason why brands succeed: solving a real problem for their customers. He states:

   “In short, you have not identified a problem that you solve and become known for that.” [01:20]

   Miller explains that human beings are inherently problem-solvers, and they naturally gravitate towards products and services that address their needs. He illustrates this with an example of two chefs at a cocktail party, where the chef who clearly positions himself as solving a specific problem (e.g., helping families eat together healthily) attracts more business than one who merely describes his culinary skills.

2. Clarity in Messaging

   Miller underscores the importance of clear and direct communication. Vague messaging can lead to consumer disengagement because it doesn't immediately convey how the brand can be beneficial:

   “If you have a leaky roof, I'm the guy you call.” [03:35]

   Clear messages ensure that potential customers understand the value proposition without mental strain, thereby increasing engagement and sales.

3. The StoryBrand Framework

   Drawing from his extensive study of storytelling and narrative structures, Miller outlines the seven basic plot elements that are essential for compelling stories:

   • Character: The customer is the hero who wants something.
   • Problem: The hero encounters a problem that hinders their goal.
   • Guide: The brand positions itself as the guide with empathy and authority.
   • Plan: The guide offers a three-step plan to help the hero overcome the problem.
   • Call to Action: Encouraging the hero to take specific actions.
   • Failure: Highlighting the consequences of not addressing the problem.
   • Success: Painting a picture of the hero’s success after following the guide’s plan.

   Miller explains how brands can apply this framework to position themselves effectively in the market, ensuring that their messaging resonates clearly with their audience.

4. Positioning as the Guide, Not the Hero

   One of the most critical insights Miller provides is the distinction between positioning the brand as the hero versus the guide. He argues that customers are the heroes of their own stories, and brands should serve as guides that help them achieve their goals. This approach fosters a stronger connection and trust between the brand and its customers.

   “Stop telling your story. It doesn't matter. What matters is the customer story.” [26:52]

   Miller uses the example of political campaigns, contrasting Jeb Bush’s vague messaging with Donald Trump’s concise and problem-solving slogans like “Make America Great Again,” which clearly articulate a vision and solution.

5. Empathy and Authority in Branding

   For a brand to effectively position itself as a guide, it must demonstrate both empathy and authority. Miller explains that empathy shows the brand understands the customer’s struggles, while authority establishes the brand’s competence in solving those problems.

   “The one, two punch that positions yourself in the guide in the subconscious of a hero is empathy and authority or empathy and competency.” [43:21]

   He cites Fred Rogers and Tony Robbins as exemplary guides who embody these traits, effectively helping their audience without overshadowing their role as supportive figures.

6. Common Mistakes in Branding

   Miller identifies three major mistakes brands often make:

   • Not Clearly Defining the Problem: Without a clear problem statement, brands fail to capture customer interest.
   • Positioning Themselves as the Hero: This shifts focus away from the customer, making the brand seem self-centered.
   • Overcomplicating the Message: Brands that require customers to think too hard about their value proposition risk losing engagement.

   By avoiding these pitfalls, brands can create more effective and resonant messages.

7. Application of StoryBrand in Various Contexts

   Miller discusses how the StoryBrand framework can be applied beyond traditional businesses, including personal branding and individual pursuits. He encourages listeners to niche down on specific problems and communicate solutions clearly to foster growth and connection.

   “If you can actually own a problem and be the first person or maybe the best or the second, but say it clearest, it's the fastest way to grow a brand.” [17:35]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Identifying Problems:

  “The number one reason most people are being ignored is because they can't figure out what problem you solve.” – Donald Miller [01:20]

• Clarity in Messaging:

  “You can't be elusive about it or vague. You have to state...” – Donald Miller [02:41]

• Story Structure:

  “The guide shows up, which is a strong character who's been there, done that, and can help the hero win.” – Donald Miller [26:52]

• Empathy and Authority:

  “The one, two punch that positions yourself in the guide in the subconscious of a hero is empathy and authority or empathy and competency.” – Donald Miller [43:21]

• Avoiding Common Mistakes:

  “Most businesses fail because not because their product wasn't good enough. It's because they made their customer think.” – Donald Miller [15:13]

Insights and Conclusions:

Donald Miller provides invaluable insights into the mechanics of effective branding and storytelling. By emphasizing the importance of identifying and clearly communicating the problems a brand solves, positioning the brand as a compassionate and competent guide, and maintaining clarity in messaging, businesses can significantly enhance their connection with customers.

Miller’s anecdotes, such as the transformation of Spectrum Brands by repositioning aquariums with the tagline “kids love aquariums,” demonstrate the practical application of his principles and the tangible impact they can have on business success.

Furthermore, Miller touches on the evolution of his own career, highlighting his transition from writing memoirs to authoring books focused on storytelling frameworks that help others achieve clarity and growth in their brands. His upcoming book, Building a StoryBrand 2.0, promises to expand on these concepts, incorporating modern tools like AI to assist businesses in crafting effective narratives swiftly.

Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a masterclass in branding and storytelling, offering listeners actionable strategies to refine their messaging and build stronger, more resonant brands. Donald Miller’s expertise and relatable anecdotes make complex concepts accessible, empowering entrepreneurs and individuals alike to elevate their personal and professional narratives.

For those looking to deepen their understanding of brand storytelling, this conversation with Donald Miller is an essential listen, packed with practical advice and inspirational insights.

Transcript

[Lauren Everts]

The following podcast is a Dear Media Production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire.

[Michael Bostick]

Fantastic.

[Lauren Everts]

And he's a serial entrepreneur, a very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostick.

[Donald Miller]

Are bringing you along for the ride.

[Michael Bostick]

Get ready for some major realness.

[Lauren Everts]

Welcome to the Skinny Confidential.

[Donald Miller]

Him and her.

[Lauren Everts]

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Skinny Confidential him and her show. Today I am so excited to welcome a guest that continues to inspire me every single day. I would say many of the brands that I've been part of or built have largely been inspired by this guy's work, and that is Donald Miller. He wrote Building a Story Brand and that book changed my life. We're gonna talk all about it on this show. But if you're somebody that wants to build an online brand, your own business, if you wanna be able to get your message out there and have people resonate with it better, if you want people to understand what you're trying to say online and it's not breaking through, this episode is for you. This is all about communication, building a brand, making sure that your message is reaching your, growing a personal brand, you name it, this guy's got the answers for you with that. Donald Miller. Welcome to the Skinny Confidential him and her show. This is the Skinny Confidential him and her.

[Michael Bostick]

There's a reason people are ignoring you and here's why.

[Donald Miller]

Why, in short, you have not identified a problem that you solve and become known for that. That would be the. There's multiple answers. We value products, people, brands, politicians, soap. We value anything because it solves a problem. That's it. The only thing human beings spend money on are things that solve problems. And if you haven't communicated passively or directly what problem you solve, it's very hard for people to figure out why you matter. I realize that's incredibly selfish. It's not true for your children or your spouse or anything like that. But if you're trying to build a brand, you've got to be known for solving a problem. That's reason number one is because you haven't identified a problem. And once you identify what problem you solve, you need to talk about it endlessly. Because the bigger the problem is, the more valuable you are. Because you're somebody who solves problems. And you know, for instance, let's say you're at a cocktail party or something, you meet two people who do the exact same thing, same business, same quality, same price. You go up the first person, what do you do? They say, well, I'm an at home chef, I come to Your house and cook. You're thinking, that's interesting. Where'd you go to culinary school? And you know, how do you make your hollandaise sauce and all? You know, you're probably not going to do business with them, but you're genuinely curious about their story. You go to the next person, you say, what do you do? And they say, well, you know how most families don't eat together anymore? When they do, they don't eat healthy. I'm an at home chef. I come to your house and cook. Chef number two is going to get all the business and chef number one is not going to get any of it. And the reason is they position themselves as the solution to a problem. So the number one reason most people are being ignored is because they can't figure out what problem you solve. Which I realize sounds shallow, but the human brain is designed to help you survive. And it's a problem solving machine. So it can't help but try to figure out where are you useful? Where is this useful? Where is this product useful? So if you state it clearly, this is the problem I solve. All of a sudden your brand gets a lot more attention, which is point number two is you've got to state it clearly. You can't be elusive about it or vague. You have to state, you know, if you have a leaky roof, I'm the guy you call.

[Lauren Everts]

It's so funny. Well, first, I'm so excited that you're here and I told you that before we started. Both Lauren and I are, I must have read your book, Building a story brand in 2015 or 16. Does that sound probably, yeah, probably the.

[Donald Miller]

Year it came out. Thanks for doing that.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah, I was like, and it was before I started this company, Dear Media, right around the time we were starting this. So the, the office we're sitting in is called Dear Media and we primarily produce shows like ours. We have this one and about a hundred others.

[Michael Bostick]

What's your problem? You solve.

[Lauren Everts]

So, but I, but I was, I'm so excited to go through this with you. But what I realized when I was starting this business subconsciously and the reason this exists is many people that do what we do had huge problems in producing, monetizing, distributing, marketing, and because you.

[Donald Miller]

Solve a problem, you're rich.

[Lauren Everts]

And. Well, my, my thing that I said to many of them was not I'm starting a media company or a media business, I would approach them and say, you have this problem where you can't reach audiences, you can't make money, you can't get Heard you can't get seen.

[Donald Miller]

That's right.

[Lauren Everts]

And it largely started this snowball. And you know, not to be self grandiosy or brag, but you know, the success of that approach manifested largely because I read your book and figured out how to tell and communicate that story.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

And so I'm so excited to have you here because I think this is applicable not only to what we do, but for anyone looking to build a personal brand, a business, a product, whatever.

[Donald Miller]

It may be, it's the reason I'm married. I mean, I had been crazy about my wife for three years, similar story to yours. She just like, you know, never gave me much of the time of the day. And I started studying this, I was writing, I was starting to think about the story, brand framework. I didn't call it that at the time, hadn't written the book. She was dating somebody, been dating somebody for three years off and on. And so I'm sitting there across from her and I just go, you know, it seems like he should be popping the question by now and if I were dating you, I would be asking you to marry me. I just can't imagine him or I don't know why he doesn't see that. But if you're not feeling cared about or paid attention to. And I literally said, 30 days from now I'm going to call you and ask you out and if you have a boyfriend, it's going to be really uncomfortable. Thirty days later, called her and asked her out and she was like. I said, well, I called her, I said, do you have a boyfriend? She goes, no. Well, we should go out, you know, but I say that as a joking story, but literally I figured out how to position myself as the solution to her problem and it worked. Now she would say that had nothing to do with it, but I think it works on so many levels that it doesn't matter what you're trying to do. If you just go, you seem to be struggling with this. And one, I care about that, that shouldn't be happening to you. And two, I know how to solve that problem and I'm willing to do so. That's the point at which potential customers, because we're talking business here, begin to pay attention to you. They're literally not paying attention to you until they put their problem together with your solution. And they go, oh, there's some potential there.

[Michael Bostick]

How did you see this space? Like talk to me about when you were like a little boy. Did you see, did you see something or have an epiphany? Of, of understanding this. Like, how did you even begin to conceptualize this?

[Donald Miller]

You know, I don't. I'm. I'm not exactly sure. It's sort of a Forrest Gump scenario. I actually went to Alvin Community College here in Texas, home of the Fighting Dolphins, on a tuba scholarship. So that explains why I got married so late. But it was a creative. I was a creative and I was writing compositions for tuba, and obviously that was not going to go anywhere and picked up a pen and started writing and realized, oh, that same desire that to sort of compose experiences. I can channel that through literature.

[Michael Bostick]

Huh.

[Donald Miller]

Began to write. Wrote my first book about a road trip I took across the country, and that book sold like 10,000 copies, which is not very good. And then ended up auditing classes at Reed College in Portland, where we ran out of money on the road trip. And Reed had two distinguishing characteristics. It was the most godless campus in the country. And then the average IQ was 2 points above genius of the students there.

[Lauren Everts]

And.

[Donald Miller]

And so I spent three years at Reed and wrote a book about it. Wrote a book about my experience at Reed, and that book ended up on the New York times for like 40 something weeks. And then that set me up as a writer. And I began writing book after book. Well, in order to write better books, I began to study story and story structure because it keeps people turning the page. It's very formulaic. And I studied it and studied it. Wrote eight memoirs. They all did pretty well, and the publisher always wants another one. And I said, I don't have another memoir. I'm going to write a book about narrative structures and how you can use them to clarify a message, to bring attention to a brand. And they said, that book is going to sell four copies, and it ended up selling a million copies. And that started this whole career, this whole second career, if you will, of helping people clarify their message. And I'm extremely grateful for it because I wrote a lot of books and they were really fun to write, but I was just done sort of navel gazing and talking about myself. And so now I'm able to work with other brands and help them figure out how to get that kind of attention.

[Michael Bostick]

Based on all the studying that you've done on storytelling and branding, who do you think, from an outside perspective, does it. The creme de la creme? You could do a restaurant, you could do Uber. Like who's. Who's just doing it, where you're blown away.

[Donald Miller]

There are, you know, half a dozen doing it at the highest level, not all of them are big brands that you know about, because if you're. If you're Coca Cola, everybody knows what Coca Cola is. And so Coca Cola can sell emotions, they can sell a feeling. Smaller brands, if they try to do that, they go bankrupt because nobody actually knows what you do or what problem you solve. Like, Dave Ramsey was an early story brand adopter, and Dave is $300 million business, but he's known for solving your financial problems. That's what the character wants. There's a villain, which is credit card companies in debt. He's going to give you three steps to overcome the villain and beat them at their own game so that you can have the climactic scene of being debt free. That's all story brand framework. That's all inviting the customer into a story in which they play the hero, overcome a villain, and live to win and experience a better day. That would be probably one of the top brands that I would say implements the story brand framework. Other people play with it. United Airlines has now positioned the customer as the hero, traveling in order to win the day. But they're just sort of playing around it. It's mostly storybrand as a framework has been adopted by mostly small businesses who've seen dramatic success when they've figured out how to clearly articulate the problem that they solve.

[Michael Bostick]

I think what has been so helpful to me is that the customer should be the hero. You've helped me realize that even with this podcast, I'm. I'm sort of the guide and the customer is the hero. And when you constantly tell yourself that when you're creating content or when you're building a brand, it really makes a big difference.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. What pro, you know, if you're going to write a blog or going to do a podcast episode, you just want to identify, you know, okay, this is our guest today. What are the three big problems that the listener has that this guest can help solve? And at that point, you're mediating between the guide and the hero, which would be a very popular podcast.

[Michael Bostick]

So what do you think the top three problems that the listener has for this episode?

[Donald Miller]

They're not getting the attention that they want. They're beginning to think that their product or themselves are not good enough and they want to grow a brand. Those would be the problems that I solve or help people solve.

[Michael Bostick]

Can we solve each of them live on the show right now? Can we go through each one?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Give me the brand.

[Lauren Everts]

So say somebody.

[Michael Bostick]

So we'd have to give you the brand.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. What do you do?

[Michael Bostick]

Got it got it.

[Lauren Everts]

Maybe. Let me ask you a different, more broad way to answer this question. When somebody brings you on or starts to work with you and you dive into their business, what are some of the three biggest mistakes you see early brands doing?

[Donald Miller]

That's a really great question. Okay, so a recent brand was Spectrum Brands. Spectrum Brands got started because they bought George Foreman Grills.

[Michael Bostick]

Okay?

[Donald Miller]

George Foreman Grills were doing extremely well. They began to decline, as far as I understand the story. And my guy, the CEO of Spectrum Brands, is really good at buying companies that are on the way down and then bringing them right back. So they own, you know, they own that. They own Remington Shavers. They also dominate the fish food fish aquarium market at all American Pet stores. And they called me in, we spent a day with their team, a lot of them from Europe, and very, very intelligent folks. And they said, look, hobbyists buy fish aquariums. Families don't. We sell about $100 million worth of aquariums, fish food, that sort of thing a year. And I said, well, okay, you want to break into families? And they're like, yeah, but families don't buy aquariums. And so I remembered being in London for a month with Betsy and Emmeline, and we would. We stopped. We'd have to stop at the lobby of the hotel we were in to look at the aquarium because Emeline was so fast and she wanted to find Nemo. There was three Nemos in this aquarium we'd always find. It was just a blast. And I said, but kids love aquariums. And then the light bulb went on. Well, if you just put kids love aquariums on everything, you'll sell aquariums to families. In other words, what is the problem that the mom or dad walking into the pet store has? If they are looking for something that their kids will love, then what you need to say is, kids will love this. And it's that simple. And so convincing these very, very intelligent people that they could put three words on an aquarium and sell a lot more of it was very difficult because they get paid a lot of money. They a, b, test everything, and they're not going to believe this guy who wrote the book that our boss read, right? And so I convinced him. I said, look, do it in a test market. Just put kids love aquariums. I need to put it on the aquariums, put on the fish food, put it on signage. Because the problem is I'm looking for something my kids will love. Now, what's interesting is no parent would actually tell you that's the problem. So they don't even know what their problem is. So that's the other challenge. You got to figure out what is the internal struggle of your customer, even if they can't articulate it.

[Lauren Everts]

But it sounds like in that instance, the parents don't even know what they're looking for.

[Donald Miller]

They don't. They're walking into. And they might even be walking in to get dog food. But then when they see kids love aquariums, you know, what percentage of parents love their kids? Roughly 100. And what percentage of parents want something that their kids will love? Roughly 100. And so there it is. So they were just like, I don't know. So I pulled Marcus. I said, look, will you just test it in one market? About three months later, he calls me and says, hey, I want to come to Nashville. I want to spend some time with you. Okay, what's going on? He goes, we did the test market. I go, well, how'd it go? He goes, I just want to come to Nashville and spend some time with you. Please don't be suspenseful. Comes to Nashville. We're up in my office, and I'm like, well, something happened. And he said, I just wanted you here in person. 99% increase in sales.

[Michael Bostick]

Wow. Holy.

[Donald Miller]

Now. Now just think about why. Why? Because this is the number one reason they stopped making the customer think. Most businesses fail because not because their product wasn't good enough. It's because they made their customer think think. Now, the Average brain burns 6 to 800 calories a day. You're constantly processing information, and your brain is a supercomputer. Your brain is the organ in your body that burns more calories than any other organ in your body. It is very, very hungry. Because your brain burns 600, 800 calories a day. 20% of the calories you burn are with your brain. You're constantly actually trying not to think, because if you burn 1400 calories in a day and barbarians attack you in your cul de sac that night, you don't have any energy to fight them. So your brain is always trying to say, only think about things that will help me survive. That's it. Don't think about anything else. Only think about things that will help me survive. That's why you look both ways when you cross the street. That's why when you walk into a Starbucks, you get your coffee, you leave. You don't study the glue packaging on the coffee. You're constantly ignoring information.

[Lauren Everts]

It's why when you say the same thing four times to me, I get.

[Michael Bostick]

I need him to acknowledge.

[Donald Miller]

You have to associate what I'm trying to survive.

[Lauren Everts]

That's all I care.

[Donald Miller]

You have to associate what you want with his survival. So what you need to actually say is if you don't do this, there's gonna be hell to pay and he'll do it.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah, that's true.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostick]

Maybe you need to give us a slogan as wives of what to say, like a kids love aquarium situation. Maybe we need like a brand story for how wives can get their husbands to snap to it.

[Donald Miller]

That's a whole other book I'm not qualified to write.

[Lauren Everts]

Okay, let me.

[Donald Miller]

But the idea is short, simple sound bites that associate with your, with your customer's survival. And if you don't do that, you will not grow a business.

[Lauren Everts]

Let me ask you or give you another prompt these days, and I don't know if you've worked with individuals like this, many people want to pursue a career building an online Persona. Whether they want to do a show like this or they want to be a blogger or they want to whatever it may be, you know, that's, that's become a thing. For those individuals that are struggling to break through, what would you tell them? Because it's maybe similar in a lot of ways, but different than, you know, a brand or a product based business.

[Donald Miller]

Niche down on a problem. Niche down on a problem that a lot of people have and feel very passionately. For instance, let me just. Dr. Becky.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah, we love Dr. Becky.

[Donald Miller]

She's been okay. Why? What problem does she solve?

[Lauren Everts]

She helps us be better parents.

[Donald Miller]

There you go. Peter Attia.

[Lauren Everts]

We just had dinner with him. Going to help me live longer.

[Donald Miller]

There you go. If I can't name the problem you solve very quickly, you're going to have a struggle building a brand. That's the fastest way to do it. Peter ATI is known for longevity. Now there's a lot of people who are known for health, wellness, that sort of stuff. He niched down on one aspect of it, longevity. Dr. Becky As a psychologist probably give really great marital advice. She doesn't only parenting. And by the way, she has a paradigm shift that kids are actually good, which is yet a further niche because it's the antithesis of what most people think. So now she's combining the solution to a problem that is a felt need everybody has with a paradigm shift that is different than what you previously thought in screenwriting. That's called the same, but different. The reason there's so many sequels and movies is because people batch their thinking. Well, I saw the first Marvel one, I liked it, so I'll spend money on the second. That's why there are very few movies in the theater that are different. The new Bob Dylan movie, which is a fantastic movie, is very much like all of the other. The movie about Queen, the movie about Elton John, the movie about. It's the same, but different. And so what you want to do is say, well, I'm a parenting coach. The same, but I believe kids are good. That's different. And I will help your. You and your kids get along much better and help you develop kids so that they thrive. That's the problem you solve. So the people that I'm listing there are. There are, you know, people who have, you know, some degree of fame, who maybe aren't known for a problem. But if you actually want to grow a personal brand really, really quickly, own a problem, it's probably from my friends who, you know, are trying to grow a brand. This is the number one conversation that we have. So I want you to own something. I own clear messaging. There are other people out there trying to do it, but they. But I own it because I talk about it so much, and it's the reason that I'm on podcasts, is to talk about clear messaging. And if you can actually own a problem and be the first person or maybe the best or the second, but say it clearest, it's the fastest way to grow a brand.

[Michael Bostick]

Okay, can we pick on ourselves for a second? So let's say you're consulting us on this show.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostick]

To me, this show, and I'm curious to know what you think the problem is. But to me, this show is to be the best version of yourself.

[Donald Miller]

Okay.

[Michael Bostick]

So every episode, my goal is to give the audience tangible tools to be the best version of themselves.

[Donald Miller]

Right.

[Michael Bostick]

Is the problem that we're solving that. Like, how do you articulate that?

[Lauren Everts]

I would say the problem we're solving is you want to be better, and you could be better, but you need.

[Donald Miller]

But you just don't know how.

[Lauren Everts]

You just don't know how.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah. And you guys are facilitating that conversation.

[Michael Bostick]

Is that how simple it is?

[Donald Miller]

That's how simple it is. You could niche down even further.

[Michael Bostick]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like, for instance, if you said how stay at home moms can experience, meaning, that's a whole area of expertise that you could niche down on.

[Lauren Everts]

I think what's happened in this instance.

[Donald Miller]

But you guys, you're successful because you're solving problems. And let me say this. The reason that we're in the 24th floor of a beautiful building in Austin, Austin, Texas in a gorgeous studio is because you've solved problems. I mean that is rule number one is unless you solve problems, people are not interested in you.

[Lauren Everts]

Let's talk about a healthier alternative when it comes to snacking. Boy do Lauren and I love Chomps. I have Chomps in the office, I have them at home. I take them on the go, they're in my bag, I give them to my kids. We eat Chomps all the time in the Bostic household and I try to get anyone that will listen to try them as well. With 10 or more grams of high quality, thoughtfully sourced protein and 0 grams of sugar in each stick, you get a delicious snack that keeps you fueled and satisfied. We recently had the founders and co CEOs of Chomps on this podcast talking about all about how they've built this business and provided a great treat and alternative to junk food that exists in most people's pantries. There's only 100 calories or less per meat stick and it's convenient on the go. Snacking is perfect for the whole family. Like I said, we'd only take it ourselves. We give it to our kids, our friends, our neighbors, anyone that wants them. Chomps meat sticks are shelf stable meat, meaning they don't need to be refrigerated or won't melt or get sticky like other snacks. This makes them great to take on the go. If you're somebody like us who has to commute all the time or take long trips, this is a great way to stay fueled without reaching for that junk food. It's all made with real ingredients. You can taste and see the difference in every single bite. So if you're looking for something to stock the shelves, put in your office carrying your bag on the go. If you're looking for a snack that's going to be healthier than most of the junk that we reach for. Tri Chomps get 15% off off your order of Chomps meat [e-mail] skinny with code skinny. Again, that's code skinny for 15 off your [e-mail] skinny get that protein in. Get a healthier snack with Chomps. Let's talk about how we can turbo drive our health, our immune system. Make sure we're feeling our best as we start this new year and make sure that we're getting the results that we want every day. This is why I love talking about Symbiotica. Symbiotica has become a staple in Lauren and I's lives. We take so many of their products for years now. I, like I said many times on this show, I think their glutathione is one of the best on the market. I take it every single day. It's one of the strongest antioxidants out there. But what I want to talk about today is their vitamin C. Their liposomal vitamin C is a must have for supporting collagen production, boosting immunity. Their liquid vitamin C packets utilize cutting edge liposomal technology like I mentioned earlier, to deliver better absorption. For better results. You could put it in water in the morning, it's got this orange flavor. Or you could do what I do and just drink it right out of the packet. You take it and you absorb it the same way that you would absorb food. This is going to help boost your immune function, help you get collagen production. For people that care about skin and nails and hair radiance, this is a great product. So many supplements out there have compromised their ingredients, but Symbiotica is one of the only trustworthy brands out there. They never compromise on quality or sourcing. Their products are free from seed oils, preservatives, toxins, artificial additives. It's something you can taste and feel in every single packet. This is why we've had the founders of Symbiotica on this show so many times or so many different episodes, talking about so many different subjects because they really just know their shit. We've partnered with them for a long time and I feel great every time I share this offer. Go to symbiotica.com TSC for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com TSC to claim 20 off plus free shipping today. Check out their vitamin C, their glutathione, their magnesium L3. They have so many great products, you can't go wrong again. Symbiotica.com TSC I do not like to.

[Michael Bostick]

Be uncomfortable in my bra, especially when I'm pregnant. You know what I mean? I don't want the bra blocking my lymphatic system or to be too tight on my rib cage. And that is why I love the skims fits. Everybody scoop Bralette. This is the most comfortable bralette. I have big boobs and I cannot go braless, so I need something that makes me feel supported. But I also want something that's really comfortable and doesn't make me feel suffocated, especially when I'm pregnant. If you are like me and you want to be comfortable in your bra, you have to try the skims fits. Everybody scoop bralette know what they're doing when it comes to bras. They've truly removed every single pain point from a bra. Their T shirts, their bodysuits, even pregnant like their leggings, they just get it. And this is weird about the bra, you guys, but it just makes your boobs look like lifted and it looks seamless under a T shirt. They, they really thought of everything. I feel like it makes my boobs look amazing. So if you're looking for a bra, try this one. They also have like a Fits Everybody T shirt bra. This is a good one for postpartum. This is a good one for every day, just to keep them even and lifted. Again, amazing under a fitted tee. Shop Skims Best intimates, including the Fits Everybody collection and [e-mail] and skim stores. After you place the order, be sure to let them know we sent you. You can select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. Go to skims.com skinny that's skims.com skinny.

[Lauren Everts]

What I always am careful about with this platform in particular is somebody is going to tune in or listen to episode 805 with Donald Miller and they don't realize that episode 1, 2, 3 and 4 were very niche down and they were very specific. But over time, it's been a decade of almost two decades of creating content, but a decade of doing this. So obviously the conversations and topics have gotten wider and broader over time. But in the beginning where we found success was very specific niches and problem solving.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

And I just imagine it's such a.

[Donald Miller]

Great way to get the fire started. Right. As you niche down, niche down and then get broader as the brand gets bigger.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostick]

How would you describe, because you mentioned this earlier, the components of telling a story in the best way?

[Donald Miller]

Well, the way stories work are extremely formulaic. They have been for 2,500 years.

[Lauren Everts]

Since you ruined some movies for me, I'm not gonna lie. I talked about.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, you can predict pretty much what's gonna happen based on seven different story structures that exist in modern movies. And a lot of novels, mostly in movies, but in all seven story formulas, if you will. And they have names like Monster in the House and There and Back Again. There's seven. Christopher Booker wrote, I think, the best book called the Seven Basic Plots. It's 700 pages of text, smaller than your Bible. Took them 34 years to write the book. It's a fantastic book on story and story structure. However, there are seven things that happen in all Seven formulas. And those things are, you have a character and the character wants something. The character encounters a problem so they can't get what they want. That opens the story question. The guide shows up, which is a strong character who's been there, done that, and can help the hero win. The guide gives the character, the hero a three step plan that either ends in a happy ending or a tragic ending. That's it. That is pretty much every movie you can name and where screenwriters get it wrong and us personal brands get it wrong. There's a bunch of rules inside of that structure that if you break them, your brand is probably going to fail. One of them is you haven't clearly defined what your hero customer wants. When my chef example said, you know how most families don't eat together anymore? When they do, they don't eat healthy. He's identified what the customer wants. In fact, he didn't even tell them what they do. He started with the problem, right? And then if you, if you're not very, very clear and niched down, that's one big mistake. Another big mistake is most people position themselves as the hero. And so they actually say, I am a hero. Here's my story. I want you to buy my product, I'm trying to grow my company and blah, blah, blah, and they tell their story. Stop telling your story. It doesn't matter. What matters is the customer story. You need to position yourself as the guide in the hero's life. Listen to the ramifications of this. We got a call from the Jeb Bush campaign. I've helped. I was, I was on a task force with Barack Obama in the White House, but we got a call from a Republican. I'm neither a Republican or Democrat. I frustrated with both parties, but they called and a friend of mine is Jeb's nephew and said, would you go to Florida and help him out? He's getting beat by this television guy, Donald Trump. And it was back in the first one. And again, I don't want to piss anybody off, but you know, I said, yeah, I'd love to. So I go. At the time, Jeb's campaign tagline was, jeb can fix it, Jeb can fix it.

[Michael Bostick]

What makes it about them?

[Donald Miller]

Who's the hero?

[Michael Bostick]

Him.

[Donald Miller]

Jeb. So you have not entered into my story. You're telling me a story about you, but you've not entered the story. It's mine. And then he broke the second rule or one of the other seven rules is you're gonna fix it. Well, it is very vague. What is it? I can't emotionally. If you walk into a pet store and there's signs everywhere that says, kids love it, what am I supposed to buy?

[Michael Bostick]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

I can't get my mind around your offer. So, $112 million in the Right to Rise super PAC, $15 million in the general campaign fund, approximately and 3% in the polls. Money's not going to solve your problem. A message will. Trump goes on to win. Very clear tagline. In fact, I was in Finland at the Nordic Business Forum, 8,000 entrepreneurs in the audience. This was before Trump was elected. I said, what does Donald Trump want to do with America? And 8,000 people said, Make America great again. Again. It was a short, memorable tagline. Build a wall is his foreign policy. Basically, Jeb Bush wrote a book on immigration. Donald Trump had three words. Three words beat a book. I'm not proud of that. I'm just saying, if you haven't, if you don't understand, this is how the human brain works. Good luck building a brand.

[Michael Bostick]

He also did what you're saying where he niched down even harder. So he made the color red. So you immediately associate that. And then he niched down where he said, make America healthy again.

[Lauren Everts]

But he also articulated, well, that was.

[Donald Miller]

Campaign number two that he lost. He got convoluted. He changed it to keep America great. Well, there's not a single person in America who thought America was great. So you're not making any sense.

[Michael Bostick]

Right?

[Donald Miller]

Then when he comes back, it's make America great. Make America healthy. He had subplots in the general plot.

[Lauren Everts]

But he articulated a problem and solution in the same four words.

[Donald Miller]

And where was he trained? Media. He was trained in storytelling. And listen, I'm not a fan. I think he has ridiculous autocratic tendencies that are very dangerous. I'm a fan of some of the policies and some of the drastic changes that he wants to make because I think the Republican and Democratic parties are both destroying this country. But if you want to say, why did that man succeed? It's because he understood intuitively narrative structures and he also understood the power of the sound bite. All good marketing and messaging is an exercise in memorization, all of it. I am trying to get you to memorize my sound bites. So I'm going to put it on a red hat, right? I'm going to put on signs, I'm going to put on flags. I'm going to repeat it until I'm blue in the face. And I'm never going to stop repeating the exact same message and the exact Same words. Because I need you to memorize. And the difference is, when somebody went to the polls in that first election, they could either make America great again, or. I can't remember what Hillary was offering. Here's what she was offering. I'm with her. That was her tagline. She's the hero, and there's no offer. I'm just with her going where we don't know, doing what we don't know. Now, she had 120 ideas that she told us outlined on her website that she wanted to do for America. So she threw 50,000 mental calories at you that you would have to burn in order to understand why you should.

[Michael Bostick]

Look for no one else to read all that.

[Donald Miller]

And it really stinks. I mean, this as a grievance. That's how the human brain works. We are looking for the shortest possible solution to our problem because our brain is literally telling us, don't think about anything that's not going to help you survive. And if somebody takes more than 4, 8 seconds for you to figure out how they can help you, I'm going to cause you to start daydreaming, and your eyes are going to glaze over.

[Lauren Everts]

Yep. It's funny, like, doing what I do. We sometimes will get pitched. Like, we'll get business pitches.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

And this company has supported different businesses, but I always like my eyes glaze over when someone can't explain what they're trying to do in the first, like, 20, 30 seconds. Like, if it take. If it's some huge explanation about what's going to be built and why. And it's like, I can't follow it. Like, if they can't explain it that quickly. Honestly, like, the rest of the presentation just kind of goes.

[Donald Miller]

Even if it's an amazing product, they'll.

[Michael Bostick]

Say, I'm the next Howard Stern. Right. That's. It's almost like, lazy.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

Or. But I'm. But, you know, people. I'm sure I've missed plenty of great business opportunities by just by that messaging not being clear. Because I don't have the mental capacity to kind of jump through the hoops to try to decipher all. Like, if it can't. If it's not straight from the horse's mouth and very clear. I think many of us just zone out.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

I think it happens in dating as well.

[Donald Miller]

How does. Also, I'm curious, because I'd love to know how this applies to.

[Lauren Everts]

I listen to some of my friends that go on these dates, and when it goes astray and it's like, to your point, a lot of it's about them.

[Michael Bostick]

Yeah, they're the hero.

[Donald Miller]

They're selling themselves.

[Michael Bostick]

The guy's the hero.

[Donald Miller]

Yep.

[Lauren Everts]

A lot of it is.

[Donald Miller]

And by the way, hurting people talk about themselves. Strong people listen to others. And so. And what, what is. What does the opposite sex wants, whether it's man or woman? They want strength, they want stability, and they want strength. And if you're talking about yourself the whole time, you're coming off as weak.

[Michael Bostick]

I also, I totally agree.

[Lauren Everts]

I grew up with sisters, and when they would tell me, sorry, girls married. But when they would tell me things wouldn't work out with. With guys, it was a lot of, like, the problems that they were having that somebody else needed to solve for them on and on and on or whatever. And I was like, these people, like, it's all about you again.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

And I think this is what happens in, in many relationships, especially in the dating period, as people zone out, because it's like someone puts themselves first, and it's all it took.

[Donald Miller]

I got married at 42, became a dad at 49. Was. Was not married before that. And somehow, really early in life, figured out that if I play the victim, I can get attention. And I brought that into relationship after relationship after relationship. And I was like, I don't understand why these women won't date me for more than three months. It's because they're not looking to take care of you, buddy. Right. They're gonna have to partner with you to raise children, which is incredibly painful, incredibly difficult, incredibly aggravating. And they don't need another child helping them. They need an adult. They need somebody else. And literally, when I figured out women weren't attracted to victims, it went away pretty much overnight. In other words, I was only a victim because I thought it was gonna work for me. When I realized it wasn't, I shunned that identity.

[Michael Bostick]

I've broken up with someone because they were too much of a victim. Yeah, he broke his arm surfing, and then two weeks later, he broke his other arm.

[Donald Miller]

Well, he might have been a victim, actually. He might have actually been evicted.

[Michael Bostick]

No, no, but it was like this.

[Donald Miller]

Loser got bit by a shark.

[Michael Bostick]

He could literally not even, like, like, wipe his ass. It was out of control. I was like, listen, I, I, he what maybe was a victim, but the, the way he played up the two broken arms was out of control. It was too much.

[Donald Miller]

No, the person you're looking for is like, I broke both my arms, but I can swim in a circle. Faster than I ever could. Some sort of positive outlook on.

[Lauren Everts]

I mean, Jesus. Victim, though, when you.

[Michael Bostick]

When you have a cold, it's like. I'm like, call me in five days. It is like, literally, someone has, like, murdered everyone.

[Lauren Everts]

You know, that's every man in this room. I would rather get punched in the face three times than get a cold.

[Donald Miller]

My wife and her girlfriends literally asked me, like, if. If men were the ones to have babies, would we. And, you know, we were just like, no. That would just be the end of civilization. I'll go die in a war before I have a baby. So there's something. Yeah, there's something that's inherently wimpy about a man. But I do think, though, that this goes back to building a brand. There are two things that. Two characteristics we recognize in human beings, and we automatically position them as the guide in our life when they do it. And the guide, by the way, is the strongest character in the movie. The hero's actually very, very weak until the last nine minutes in most screenplays, huh? The guide is never weak, ever.

[Lauren Everts]

It's like the Mr. Miyagi.

[Donald Miller]

It's literally a rule. The guide cannot be weak in their area of expertise. Now, Mr. Miyagi has this sort of meltdown. Remember, he gets drunk one night.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah, I forgot about that.

[Donald Miller]

But he doesn't have a meltdown in the area of karate. He can't. He literally. There's a wonderful scene in the movie King's Speech, which won an Academy Award. Do you remember that?

[Lauren Everts]

King George.

[Michael Bostick]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah. I like that movie.

[Donald Miller]

He learns to give a. But he has a stutter. So he's the hero with a problem who wants to be a good King, wants to help the Allies articulate some courage as they fight the Nazis. He can't do it. He's got to. He hires Daniel, the drama teacher, who teaches him not to stutter. There's a point in that movie where King George literally says. He pulls him aside, they're alone, and he says, I have discovered you are not a doctor. You lied to me, and you don't know what you're doing. I've put my faith in somebody who cannot help me. This is a critical moment. We're going to go back to dating in a second. This is a critical moment. In that film, if Daniel says, you're right, I lied. But I'm also growing. I'm also figuring things out. Now we have two heroes. We don't have a hero and a guide. We have two heroes. There's a screenwriting rule that the hero cannot diminish their authority, ever. Or the guide. The hero can. The guide cannot. And so Daniel literally says, you're the one who thought I was a doctor. I may have let you believe that, but I never told you that. All right? And he also said, I helped hundreds of men coming out of World War I who had speech impediments because of trauma, and I helped almost all of them overcome it. So if you're telling me I don't have an authority, I'm not listening. I have incredible authority. And I will make you a great king. That scene is the reason it won an Academy Award. Mary Poppins is actually the guide in the movie. The father, George Banks is the hero. And George Banks confronts Mary Poppins when the kids come back from the bank. There's been a run on the bank because the kids have done something stupid. And George Banks says, you are the reason for this, Mary Poppins. You are. This is your fault. Because you put those ideas, supercalifragilistic whatever, in my kids heads. They go to the bank, they cause a run on the bank. This is on you. Explain yourself. And Mary Poppins looks at him and says, mary Poppins doesn't explain herself to anybody. That's a quote from the movie. That is the guide standing in their authority. We are wired for survival, which means we are looking for people who are competent, more competent than us, who can help us survive. If you're not more competent than me in the area of my challenge, what use are you for my survival? This is really important for young men who grew up without dads, like I did. You need to get competent and you need to figure this out so that a woman can trust you to protect and provide. Otherwise, what use are you to her? You've got to figure that out. She also needs to figure out how to be a guide. And it's two guides helping heroes win. It's a conflicting sort of hard thing to understand. But once you say I don't have the authority to help, you're still a valuable person in the eyes of God. You're just not useful in my personal narrative. So the two things that you want to do to position yourself as a guide, there's two things. One is compassion. You actually want to empathize with the hero's problem as a brand. You empathize with it. When somebody says, don, we have a fantastic product, sales are stagnant and we can't figure out how to talk about it. I don't come in and say, well, I'm the Guy, what I do is I say, I am so sorry you were dealing with that. Tell me how frustrating that has been. And I stop for minutes and just say, and I empathize. I care. I feel your pain. Then and only then can I say, I've solved this problem for literally thousands of people, and I'm going to solve it for you. The one, two punch that positions yourself in the guide in the subconscious of a hero is empathy and authority or empathy and competency. Now, you can be, you know, Haymitch in Hunger Games is an alcoholic, for crying out loud. His life is just unraveled. However, he has complete authority on winning the hunting the Hunger Games. He won't apologize for that authority. He won't diminish that authority. So the guide has to have authority in the area of their expertise, and they also have to care about the customer's problems. I remember George W. Bush and Bill Clinton in a presidential debate. I'm obviously a geek on politics. Somebody in the audience asked a question. George W. Bush says, what do you mean by the national debt? You know, that's a complicated thing. And he tried to make everybody in the audience think he was smart. Bill Clinton comes over and he kind of pulls on his. He says, can I take this? And George W. Bush on camera goes, yes. And Bill Clinton says, ma'am, has anybody you known lost their job that's connected to the national debt? And I want you to know I care about you. So one person is giving an answer and solving the problem. The other person is just saying, I care. By the way, our unemployment rate and people losing homes has nothing to do with the national debt. Absolutely nothing. No. But Bill Clinton was pretty savv. He saw a guy being calloused, and he stepped in to be. And remember, I feel your pain. That was almost his tagline. So empathy is literally that important that the guide actually cares. And when a brand cares about their customer and has the competency to solve their problem, we automatically position that person as our guide and we follow them and we buy their product.

[Michael Bostick]

It's really funny because I just did a solo episode without Michael on it, and one of the questions was, like, how do I find a mate? Blah, blah, blah. And I said one thing that I did was I wrote down three things that were non negotiable when I was dating, like, what are my three most important things? And then I sort of examined the list. And the number one thing on my list, I don't even think he knows this was someone who's capable. And that's one of the reasons whenever I write him a card, the word capable always comes up. It's so important. That makes total sense that women would want a capable.

[Donald Miller]

Even me as a man sitting here. You calling him capable, like my heart skipped a beat. It's like, that's what men want. I think that's what everybody wants. Right? Or maybe you want to be a capable mother and a. But competency. The reason you're attracted to capable is because capable is going to help you survive. That's it.

[Michael Bostick]

I didn't even.

[Donald Miller]

I didn't even know that Incapable is going to be a drag and a burden on you that. That might make you vulnerable.

[Michael Bostick]

Incapable is two broken arms.

[Donald Miller]

Okay?

[Michael Bostick]

Sorry. If someone's listening with two broken arms.

[Donald Miller]

I don't know.

[Michael Bostick]

Exactly.

[Donald Miller]

If I ever see a picture of Michael with a broken arm, you're like.

[Lauren Everts]

Ooh, that's my days are numbered.

[Donald Miller]

When he does get hurt, just don't ski.

[Michael Bostick]

When he does get hurt, I'm like, figure it out.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah, it is.

[Michael Bostick]

I'm a little harsh.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you know, there's been times when, you know, I've been worried about something or scared about something, and I've been smart enough not to go to Betsy with it the second time. It's just not what she needs from me. And so I literally. What's interesting is I've got this group text called the Lions. We're a bunch of guys who go fly fishing. We're just adult grown children. But I texted them, say, hey, I'm worried about this. I'll go to my buddies and say, hey, I need some help figuring this thing out. It's not that I don't want my wife to know. It's that she just doesn't need this from me. Right. She needs competency, especially with what's more vulnerable than a woman holding a baby. Right. I mean, you need a man in this season to be competent and helpful.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah. I mean, I think. And my dad sometimes listens to this show, but I think as a kid growing up, one of the things I appreciate the most now as an adult male with my own kids and wife, is I never saw him sweat. I never saw that worry. Like, I never. And now, as I've gotten older and he's told me some of the things that they were going through, both financially and personally. Like, there was a lot of shit that they were. That they were dealing with and that he dealt with personally, but he never brought it to the marriage or to the kids. And I think it's like, it's such an admirable quality because it's not like he wasn't going through it. He just handled it, probably with friends or.

[Michael Bostick]

Your dad also is really good at just saying, yes, dear, which is also a survival mechanism. It's so easy, you guys. Literally every guy listening, it's, yes, dear. It's so much easier.

[Lauren Everts]

But you're so right. Because I find myself sometimes, like, you know, like anyone getting stressed or worried about certain things. And I will sometimes on occasion bring it to her. But I catch myself more as I've gotten older being like, okay, that's not actually adding anything to the marriage.

[Donald Miller]

It's just not. It might not be helpful. I do think that there's something about vulnerability that is akin to strength. I'm not saying never be vulnerable. There are times when I go to my, hey, I'm worried about this. And my. My wife sees it as strength. She's like, that was probably very hard for you to talk to me about, but I'm not going to and whine. Right? I'm not going to do that. And so I think that we also have to be. Look, we have to be this way as leaders of companies. You know, we can't sit there and go, hey, everybody, you know, fourth quarter didn't go well. I'm not exactly sure any of us are going to be able to keep our jobs. I don't have a plan.

[Lauren Everts]

Yep.

[Michael Bostick]

Negative words.

[Lauren Everts]

Are you, Carson, Sitting here knows, like, this is something that I. Again, using that example, my dad. I remember, like, when Covet happened and then there's market downturn and there was a lot of civil unrest and you're running a media business. Like, there was some very stressful moments, and at times I wanted to screamed, but I thought to myself, like, okay, if everybody in the company starts to panic or see me sweat more than I should be, then it's gonna destabilize the entire environment and maybe get people to leave or maybe get people to leave or maybe get people to think about going somewhere else. I think it's a relevant point to bring up because for anyone that's starting any kind of business or a family or anything, there's going to be those.

[Donald Miller]

You're going to need to be stronger than you were. If you want to be a father, you're going to need to be stronger than you have been. And you've got to develop that strength. And what a beautiful opportunity.

[Lauren Everts]

It's like if the pilot on the plane says, we got a problem, I don't really know what to do about it.

[Donald Miller]

Does anybody know how to land this thing?

[Michael Bostick]

When someone starts an email out with unfortunately, I'm tuned out. You start an email out with unfortunately, I am like, get away from me.

[Lauren Everts]

I would rather have somebody say in an email unfortunately than the pilot say, I'm. We're in some trouble here.

[Michael Bostick]

Unfortunately is a real.

[Lauren Everts]

Okay, so you pivoted a bit and you know, you wrote you this. I don't think it's much of a pivot. But you, you wrote here On a mission path to meaningful life. What made you want to write this book years later?

[Donald Miller]

The Building a Story brand is all about how to clarify your message, invite customers into a story. Hero on a Mission is about how to live one, how to live a really interesting life. And it's based on me having read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, which I recommend before reading Hero on a Mission. And more importantly, if you're gonna read one, read his. Such a good book. It's an amazing book. I wanted to explain in layman terms what logotherapy actually was and use narrative structures to do that. And so here On a Mission was, honestly, it was me trying to figure out what happened to me that transformed my life. At one time I was £387. I'm £180 now. I was lonely, couldn't, obviously at £400, women aren't. I didn't have two broken arms, but it was almost as bad. And I realized I'm. There are four characters in stories. Victim, villain, hero, God. And if you live like a victim, what will happen to you in life is what happens with the victim in the story. They die. They put a blanket around them at the end and sit him on the ambulance while the camera goes to the hero. And I realized if I keep thinking of myself as a victim, what's going to happen in my life is what happens to victims in movies? Nothing. But if I figure out how to be more heroic, then what will happen to me is what happens to heroes, which is transformation. They get strong. And then so I did that and lost £200 and rode a bike across America and wrote best selling books and started a company. It was a wonderful journey. And then you get old enough and you realize making the story about me all the time isn't as fulfilling as it used to be. But you know, this person over here needed some advice and I gave them some advice and I watched them win. And that ended up being more fulfilling than actually winning myself. I remember interviewing Pete Carroll, who won multiple national championships at usc. It was right before he won the super bowl with the Seattle Seahawks. I'm a Seahawks fan. I got 15 minutes with Pete Carroll and I went to his office, interviewed him. He two hours later, we're still talking, and just a fascinating human being. And I said to him, I said, why do you help so many people win? And you seem to be fulfilled and driven by helping other people win. Where did that come from? He said, don, I had the luxury of winning early. I said, what do you mean I had the luxury of winning early? He said, when I was young, I was an athlete and I would win races. And he said, there's a diminishing return on self victory. There's a diminishing return on you winning. But when I started coaching and helping other people win, there's no diminishing return on helping other people win. It just gets better, and you get addicted to it, and it's fulfilling, it's meaning. And I realized I need to make the transition from hero to guide. Most people transition in their lives from hero to God when they become parents, because all of a sudden the majority of their life is spent trying to help somebody else win. And it's the most fulfilling journey you can possibly have. And so I thought, I want to write a book about this. How to go from victim to hero to guide. There's the fourth characteristic, which is villain. And villain is one that all of us go in and out of. We all, by the way, play these four characters every day. Every one of us plays the victim, the villain, the hero, and the guide every single day. The more time you spend playing the hero, the better your life is going to go. The more time you spend playing the guide, the more meaningful your life is going to be. The more time you spend playing the victim, the more your life is going to go nowhere. And the more time you spend playing the villain, the sooner you're gonna end up in prison. A villain and a hero, they have the exact same backstory. The villain and the hero have a backstory of pain, of neglect. In fact, almost always in a movie, Watch this. The villain will have a scar or a limp. And the reason is, it's the screenwriter's way of telling you that some pain happened in their backstory. I'm not gonna explain it, but some pain. And what made them the villain is how they responded to the pain. The hero takes the pain and says, I'm never gonna let this happen to anybody else. The villain takes the pain and says, I'm gonna get you back.

[Lauren Everts]

It's so funny.

[Donald Miller]

I'll get the world back.

[Lauren Everts]

I just watched our kids are little the Lion King. The original Scar.

[Donald Miller]

His name is literally Scar.

[Lauren Everts]

And our son is like, oh, he's got this. You remember Scar has the scar. And it's funny how you. Cause it's like two brothers, same background. One had something happen.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And they both dealt with pain differently. A seeking of vengeance is a sure sign that you're heading down the villain path. You saying this hurt, but I'm gonna learn from it and try to make sure that this never happens to anybody else. Maybe even to the point of putting the person who hurt me in jail. Right. I mean, that's a heroic story. So we really have to be self aware enough to know which role we're playing so that we can predict what our future is going to look like. And here on a mission, I wrote a book to help people predict what their future is going to look like.

[Michael Bostick]

One thing that I do not play around with is stretch marks. I do not play around with them, especially in pregnancy. And what I use on my body is Agent Nator's Holy Body Ageless Body Serum. This is the best for moisturizing. It has like omega fatty acids in it and it just promotes youthful looking skin. This is one of those products that you will try once and you will totally get what I'm saying. Like if I had to pick the best body serum on the market, it's definitely this. It's recommended for discoloration, stretch marks or dry skin. How I use it is I dry brush, I get in the shower, I get out and then I'll use this serum with the Skinny Confidentials Body sculptor. And it just gets in there. You can apply it everywhere and anywhere. I sometimes even put it on my face, on my neck. Their products are beautiful products. They're clean, they're luxurious and they work. And that's why I'm always going back to their site. If you're looking to grab other products on there, get the calm beauty. I love this for sleep. It has like tart cherry in it. It's a great mocktail. I also love their face serum. It's so nice under makeup. I wear it all the time under my makeup. It's just a really great skincare product. I've probably gone through like 10 bottles of this. And then you've got to try this body serum that I'm recommending. Whether you're pregnant or not. It's really luxurious and it works and it's clean. Elevate your skincare and wellness routine with Agent Natur. Visit agentnotour.com and use code skinny. You get 20% off site wide experience, clean beauty that actually works. Luxury science and results. Have you heard? I'm sure you have. I'm sure you've seen it everywhere. Of collagen peptides. Okay, there are these ones by Live Conscious Collagen peptides and I put them in my smoothie super easy habit stack. And basically what collagen is is it enhances skin elasticity and hydration, but it also helps reduce wrinkles and fine lines. I'm a big collagen person, especially when I'm pregnant. I want the highest quality collagen. I want naturally sourced ingredients. This one has zero fillers. When I created my own product, I wanted zero fillers. And when I take a product I want zero fillers. This one also has zero additives. It's 100 non GMO. A lot of people, I'm sure you guys have seen this love collagen for hair, skin and nails. I think this is just an easy way to support all things beauty. I add a scoop to a smoothie. It's amazing. With over 5 million bags sold and more than 58,000 five star reviews, Live Conscious collagen peptides have delivered a revitalized and younger looking skin for millions of women. They've also received a ton of love from top health editors at Elle magazine, Forbes and Marie Claire which actually named it best collagen for anti aging exclusively for him and her listeners. Visit weliveconscious.com and use code skinny at checkout. You get 15 off your first purchase. Again, that's Code skinny. You get 15% off your order results in 90 days or it's free. Did you know that I have been taking a supplement that has three times more cellular benefits than an omega 3 or a fish oil. I've been taking it my whole pregnancy and it's super interesting. It's called fatty 15 and what's in it is C15. It's the only ingredient in fatty 15. So there's just one ingredient. It's 100% pur. So what I found after interviewing the founder of fatty 15 is that omega 3 fish oil supplements go bad before they even leave the bottle. And this results in supplements that don't improve your health. Fatty 15 naturally protects against damaging oxidation both in the bottle and in your body. So essentially what I learned about C15 is it works in multiple ways. It repairs age related damage to cells and it also boosts your mitochondria energy output. I am obsessed with this specific pure supplement because it's really good for sleep, mood and natural repair. What I do is I take one a day instead of an omega 3 or a fish oil. I have told all my friends and family about this. For hair, skin and nails. It comes in the most gorgeous reusable bottle. Fatty 15 is on a mission to replenish your C15 levels and restore your long term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com skinny and using code Skinny at checkout. Tony Robbins is a really good example of someone who's represented the guide to me. When you say the word guide I look Tony Robbins. He's obviously guided a lot of people. Are there other people that you've seen be an incredible guide?

[Donald Miller]

Fred Rogers. Mr. Rogers. Yeah, Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Arguably the best.

[Michael Bostick]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Tony Robbins. I speak at Business Mastery twice a year. He's a hero of mine. He's a guide of mine. I should say he is that guy. Yeah, he is that guy. He's just obsessed with helping other people win.

[Michael Bostick]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Fred Rogers. When you talk about empathy and authority, watch interviews with Fred Rogers back when he was alive. When and when the interviewer pushes back and you watch a man with a steel spine who will not cave on the idea that we should be kind. He's almost angry about it. He does not diminish his authority at all. And yet he oozes compassion. He apologizes for nothing. We will be kind to children, period. And he oozes the authority and the competency and the compassion of a guide.

[Michael Bostick]

Who'S played a perfect villain that you can pinpoint.

[Donald Miller]

Well, we're going to get personal here. Xi Jinping, I think is heading down a villainous. I think Vladimir Putin has done so. Obviously Hitler saw the Germans as both victims, but he positioned the Germans as the Christ figures of the world who would sacrifice of themselves to perfect the world. Autocratic tendencies are utopian vision a failure, a diminishing of the individual in exchange for the state. In other words, a lack of care for human life. They want to be gods. Emperor Harimoto, I think I'm butchering his name. Didn't even he had a utopian vision for Japan in World War II and he literally saw himself as a God. He was a descendant of the gods. And so those are villainous tendencies. When your life is about you being God and diminishing human lives in order to accomplish your utopian vision, you're a villain.

[Lauren Everts]

When somebody and from the work you've done and studied stays in the victim state for long periods of time and can't get out of it. What is the main reason why?

[Donald Miller]

Well, it's because it's comforting. Sugar is comforting. Drugs are comforting. Alcohol is comforting. Victim state is comforting. There's a reason that we do it. If I feel sorry for myself, I don't have any responsibility. If something bad has happened to me, I don't have any responsibility to do anything about it. I think it's just a very comforting place to be in, to be a victim. And once you identify fully as a victim, I think it's nearly impossible to get out. It's one of the reasons that I get frustrated with sort of political leaders who position the American people as the victims. And I think you got to be very careful with what you're doing here. You're trying to get elected. You're the victim. I'm the hero who will come and save you. Well, what are the American people? They're the victims. You know, instead of treating the American people like the heroic people that they are and saying, look, the government's not going to solve your problem. We're going to get out of the way and you're going to solve your own problem. And, you know, that's the sort of, I think, leadership that we need with a strategic plan to do so. But, you know, I call it victim baiting, that I'm going to bait you to think of yourself as a victim so that I can actually be the one with power and help you.

[Lauren Everts]

Well, I think if, you know, you seem like you obviously very much know your history, if you study those kind of political campaigns that pander to people like that, it doesn't tend to work out for them very often. So I think people catch on and they start to say, you know, that's not what we're looking for. I think people believe they're more capable, or at least the individuals believe they're more capable than the politicians sometimes give them credit for.

[Michael Bostick]

Sometimes I notice that really smart people think that they're the only ones who are smart in the room. And it's a really big mistake because I personally think you should assume everyone's smart. They'll come in and they'll be like, trying to sort of manipulate the situation. So I could see how a politician comes in thinking they're smarter, stronger, have more money, and they think they can manipulate the American people or whoever.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you know, there's that personality type. I can't remember. I'm not A psychologist. But it's the nurse who wants the patient to be sick.

[Michael Bostick]

Ah.

[Donald Miller]

Because they get off on being a nurse. Right. Or the parent who wants the child to be weak.

[Lauren Everts]

Like Munchausens.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah, that's. I think that's my idea. Clearly smarter people in the room than me.

[Michael Bostick]

Well, no, no, no, no. You took it just, like, really far. He's just saying, like, the parent wants the child to be weak.

[Lauren Everts]

What's Munchausens?

[Michael Bostick]

Munch. Houses make your kids sick.

[Lauren Everts]

Oh, okay. Well, that's. That's too far.

[Michael Bostick]

I mean, yeah, you took it.

[Donald Miller]

But I. I think that a lot of. A lot of people like being sick. Did you see the Scarlet Thread? Paul Thomas Anderson's movie? You know, he wrote. He wrote There Will Be Blood and Magnolia. The Scarlet Thread, I think, is his greatest work.

[Lauren Everts]

I've never seen that one.

[Donald Miller]

Daniel Day Lewis, and I can't remember the woman who was the newer one. It's newish. It's been 10 years.

[Lauren Everts]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

Because he doesn't. He takes like, six years to make a movie.

[Lauren Everts]

He's sewing something.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Yes.

[Lauren Everts]

Okay, I know what you're talking about. I never saw it, but I know what you're talking about.

[Donald Miller]

He falls in love. He's a fashion designer, and he always has a female assistant. And he goes through them very quickly because they can't stand him. They can't stand working with him. He's controlling, he's dictatorial. And he goes through one, and finally he's like, I'm gonna go to the coast because it's been after Fashion Week. Or he meets a waitress. It's one of the most intense scenes I've ever seen. There's so much sexual chemistry between these two. Unspoken sexual chemistry. They fall for each other and he starts doing it to her. He starts being the bully, the beast and whatever. And slowly you're like, I don't understand this movie. I'm intrigued by it. The movie ends with the waitress controlling him and putting mushrooms in his food that make him sick and weak so that she can take care of him. And he likes it. That's how the movie ends. And you're watching the power dynamic in a couple shift over the course of two hours in the most subtle ways. And it's brilliantly written.

[Michael Bostick]

You better be careful. If you fuck around, I'll put mushrooms in your food.

[Donald Miller]

But it's the story.

[Lauren Everts]

Depends what kind of mushrooms.

[Donald Miller]

It's the story of the villain becoming the victim. And it's just fantastic. But I think there's a Lot of cultural, like, you know, ultimately you just want to be self aware. And also never let your brand play the victim. Never let your brand play the villain. Only let your brand play the guide.

[Lauren Everts]

Let me ask you this, this is, I wasn't gonna go here, but I just wonder, especially given the fears, how do you feel about brands starting to be kind of like, kind of take like activists or social positions on, in things where their customer base is not necessarily looking for them?

[Michael Bostick]

Great question.

[Donald Miller]

And I mean specifically like brands that are communicating sort of woke ideology.

[Lauren Everts]

Not just woke idea, any. Like, okay, say that I am into fishing.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

Like you and I want to go fly fishing and I'm looking for the best rod.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

And next thing you know, they're pushing some either political or social agenda. Like, I don't want to like comment on any of it. I just want to know from a business growth perspective what you've seen, if it's good or not.

[Donald Miller]

You need to be an, an expert in helping me catch a fish. And anything that you do to confuse me about your expertise in catching a fish is creating cognitive dissonance in the mind of your consumer. And, and, and if you keep doing that, you're going to get beat by the competition who's actually focused on the objective at hand.

[Lauren Everts]

So like Bud Light was the most extreme example, and we've talked about that on this show, that obviously Bud Light.

[Donald Miller]

Needs to help me get a buzz.

[Michael Bostick]

Light needs to hire Bud Light to.

[Lauren Everts]

Hire you immediately as somebody who, and I'm sure you've had clients reach out to you about this very thing in, in moments and wondering like, what messaging should exist. And I've, you know, I've always looked at it from a consumer, not from a business owner standpoint, from a consumer standpoint. Like, if I want to go fishing, I really don't want the other stuff involved. I just want to know what fucking rod is the best one.

[Donald Miller]

Keep it out. And a lot of times, you know where those messages are often coming from. And I have, I have empathy for these CEOs who feel like they need to do this. They have 100,000 employees and those employees are yelling at them, make political statements, come on these horrible things. And you're being quiet. And if you're being quiet, you're for the enemy. And so, you know, Disney, Delta Airlines, they all step on these, in these, into these minefields because their employees are saying, you got to do something. I feel for you, but at the same time, hold your ground.

[Lauren Everts]

But let's just like observe it from like.

[Donald Miller]

And don't do it.

[Lauren Everts]

A shareholder revenue, like, PNL perspective in those instances, maybe some of those employees and some of those CEOs that had to deal with those issues, then later had to let go of employees because of those very things.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Lauren Everts]

So I just think it's like, it's worth, you know, thinking about, because it's kind of. It can take down the whole ship, is what I'm saying.

[Donald Miller]

You can, and you want to be really careful about that. But I think strong statements about we're here to help people catch fish. You want to keep saying that as long as you possibly can.

[Michael Bostick]

Michael and I are obviously huge fans of. Of Building a Story Brand. Our office has used it. We've whiteboarded it. What can we expect from your next book, Building a story brand 2.0?

[Donald Miller]

You know, I had a lot of fun. The book is seven years old, sold a million copies. And the publisher came to me and said, you want to rewrite it for the millionth copy edition or whatever. And they've asked me that with a ton of books. And I've never wanted to rewrite anything I've never wanted to read. I've never read anything I've written. We have none of my books in the house. I'm just not interested. I'm very interested in the future. And I said, I'm in. And the reason I wanted to rewrite it is because there were so many stories that I could include. So I started at page one, and I literally took the Word document and just rewrote the entire book. I was shocked at how poorly written the first book was, by the way. I was like, I don't know why this sold, but 10,000 new words. And almost all of them are stories. Stories of national security called me. Stories of plumbing companies that quadrupled their business. Stories of, you know, just really interesting stories. And then with the. With AI coming online in the last several years, we actually created storybrand AI. Very cool. Which I used to charge an enormous amount of money to sit with you for eight hours and figure out your messaging. And Storybrand AI, after I wrote about 110 pages of single space instructions, can now do what I used to do in eight hours in about three minutes.

[Michael Bostick]

Damn, that's a good idea.

[Lauren Everts]

So you can reach a wider.

[Michael Bostick]

That's one of the best ideas I've heard in a while. That's a very good idea.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostick]

So I could go on and I could be like. Because I literally was like, how do I consult with you? So I Could go on. And I could use storybrand AI for the skinny confidential.

[Donald Miller]

It's as smart, if not smarter. It is faster and it's less moody.

[Michael Bostick]

I don't mind this.

[Donald Miller]

And it doesn't have broken arms.

[Michael Bostick]

Okay.

[Lauren Everts]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So if you go to survey AI, I will give you. You can answer about five or six questions and I will give you seven sound bites that you can repeat about your business that I guarantee will grow your business. And I'll give you a tagline.

[Michael Bostick]

That's a very interesting. You know why you're so smart. I have to give you like a.

[Donald Miller]

Well, what's really fun is it's now being used by thousands. It's only been out two weeks. It's being used by. I think we have 10,000 users and 2,000 subscribers.

[Lauren Everts]

I think you'll have a few more after this.

[Donald Miller]

All of them think I'm writing it and I'm fine with that.

[Michael Bostick]

I just think you're so smart because you were the guide and you gave us all these tools in these books and you content marketed for this. And then when AI comes out, which is so relevant right now, you have basically taken everything that you can do and now you're a guide on AI. It's really smart.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, really smart. Honestly, I feel like Forrest Gump just sort of stumbled into the right circumstances.

[Michael Bostick]

You stumbled into the right circumstances.

[Donald Miller]

What I love is I haven't. People will call me and we're dealing with this. We're struggling with this. The ambassador. There's only a few ambassadors who are not to a country. One of those ambassadors is to the issue of human trafficking. So John Richmond called and said, can we get some time? And. And we were able to put together a global strategy on human trafficking. AI can do that. You definitely want to study it and look at it. Can do that for everybody instantly. And so to me, that's what's so amazing is all those people that I've had to say no to. Foster care, adoption services, human trafficking organization. And Tulsa wants me to help them figure this out. And I can't. I'm a husband, I'm a father disturbant. AI literally just duplicated my personality times and what I know about messaging times. A million.

[Michael Bostick]

Can you even imagine? My dad just launched an elk pozzole business.

[Donald Miller]

Elk pozzoli.

[Michael Bostick]

It's so good. Elk pozole. You can get it at the farmer's market.

[Donald Miller]

What's it called? We gotta plug it.

[Michael Bostick]

It's called Moose Farms. You can get it at the farmer's market. He also sells it with cornbread. It's like the best elk pozoli. His biggest fan is Peter Attia. Peter Attia loves this elk pozzoli. Like, Peter Attia, like, followed my dad from San Diego to the elk Pizzoli. He loves the elk pizzoli. Anyways, this is a perfect thing for me to recommend to my dad. What is the problem he's solving with elk pozole? Yes, I'm recommend it to him.

[Donald Miller]

You know what you want to do if you're using the prompts at StoryBrun AI, you want to take a little extra time. Just answer every question slowly and put as much in there as you possibly can. My sister is a florist in Houston, Texas, and she's tired of being a florist. And she said, don, I just created this sculpture with driftwood and moss that I put in this corporate lobby, and they gave me, like, 500 bucks. I'm like, jennifer, that's a business. Right? And so I literally went to StoryBand AI and I said. And it said, what problem does your customer have? They're tired of replacing their flowers. They want a better entrance as you walk into their building. They want to make a good impression on their clients. They don't want to have wilted or dead flowers sitting there. How does your product solve this problem? Well, it'll stay fresh for over a month. We come in and we rotate it from building to building so nobody ever sees the same sculpture twice. Blah, blah, blah, and literally just wrote down, I guess this is how to do it, and hit see website. And it gave me the entire landing page for a website for a business that doesn't even exist. Sent that to my sister, and she just goes, I'm going to do this.

[Michael Bostick]

And puts up the website because makes people, I think too, who are so creative and have so many ideas. It's almost like gives you, like, it articulates it for you, the sizes, information. Yeah, I think that is one of the smartest things I've heard in a while. Storybrand AI you guys, I would recommend all of Don's books you if you. If you want to start a brand. Building a story brands amazing. I can't wait to read Building a story brand 2.0. You can come back on the show anytime you want. We really could have taken this any direction.

[Donald Miller]

This was really fun. And I knew it would be because I'm a fan of you guys too. So I knew it would be.

[Michael Bostick]

And I'm glad I told you. I've DMed you for years. I really Wanted you on for so long. Some of the guys in our studio are so excited that you're here. Weston is such a fan. He built his whole. You built. You built Coconut oil lube, one of.

[Lauren Everts]

The greatest sex businesses of our time.

[Michael Bostick]

Yes. Let me tell you something. Coconut oil lube.

[Lauren Everts]

Are we on the air?

[Donald Miller]

Can I get samples?

[Michael Bostick]

Oh, yeah, you can have samples. Coconut oil lube. You are responsible for building a brand story.

[Lauren Everts]

And now one of the taglines is even better sex.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[Michael Bostick]

I know. Who doesn't want better sex?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Not sure what's in your lube. Worried about harmful chemicals? Coconut lube.

[Lauren Everts]

I swear to God, we did. When we built the brand with them.

[Donald Miller]

Your sex doesn't smell like the tropics. We've got a solution.

[Michael Bostick]

Oh, you gotta meet Weston. You gotta meet Weston when you're walking.

[Lauren Everts]

Out, swear to God, we, like, whiteboarded that business with. And, you know, it's so funny because, like, obviously, sex is. Everyone has sex and it's.

[Donald Miller]

Or has not everyone.

[Lauren Everts]

Not everybody, but it's a universal thing.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, it is.

[Michael Bostick]

But if we know you're having sex, we can tell.

[Lauren Everts]

With me, it's a saturated space. But there were so many people. So many people have issues in the bedroom. Whether they don't feel confident or their sex isn't great. So it's very simple messaging. Sounds very.

[Michael Bostick]

By the way, it is better sex. You can eat it, like it, suck it, fuck it, start off with a massage.

[Donald Miller]

That's a tagline.

[Michael Bostick]

I mean, I got taglines coming out of my ass. It is better sex. So if you want to get some lube.

[Donald Miller]

Woo.

[Michael Bostick]

More play. Donald Miller. Where can everyone find you on Instagram?

[Donald Miller]

Instagram is just Donald Miller.

[Michael Bostick]

Okay. And where can they buy your book?

[Donald Miller]

Amazon.com, it's called Building a Storybrand 2.0.

[Lauren Everts]

Have you ever ended an interview that.

[Donald Miller]

Way with better sex lube? No.

[Lauren Everts]

Okay. It's a first.

[Michael Bostick]

Well, guess what.

[Lauren Everts]

Don Miller, thank you for coming on, man. Appreciate you.

[Donald Miller]

It was a pleasure meeting you guys.

[Michael Bostick]

Thank you.