Whitney Wolfe Herd On How To Build A Billion Dollar Business, The Future Of Relationships & AI, Entrepreneurial Burnout, & Balancing Motherhood

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Bossticks – Whitney Wolfe Herd On How To Build A Billion Dollar Business, The Future Of Relationships & AI, Entrepreneurial Burnout, & Balancing Motherhood
Hosts: Lauryn Bosstick & Michael Bosstick
Guest: Whitney Wolfe Herd (Founder, Bumble)
Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode dives into the multifaceted journey of Whitney Wolfe Herd—founder of Bumble—as she discusses navigating entrepreneurship, tackling burnout, balancing high-level business leadership with motherhood, and innovating in love and relationships through technology and AI. With Lauryn and Michael, Whitney shares candid stories about her upbringing, mental health, redefining success, gender dynamics in parenting, and the future of both work and relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motherhood and Upbringing

• Whitney describes her busy home with three children—two energetic boys and a newborn baby girl—and her love for motherhood. She reflects on her own childhood as calm and creative, and how early imagination translated into a latent entrepreneurial spirit.

  "My babies are everything. Like, they are my number one. I'm obsessed with them." — Whitney (00:24)

• Instilling entrepreneurial values: Whitney shares a story about teaching her six-year-old son about money and creativity by starting a coconut-painting business on vacation.

  "I love to turn straw into gold. That is my favorite thing to do." — Whitney (03:44)

2. Entrepreneurial Drive and Creativity

• Whitney’s early business ventures: From making bamboo tote bags for charity in college to mastering Facebook ads (05:01), Whitney reframes entrepreneurship as creativity in action:

  "Every entrepreneur is inherently imaginative or creative. You're a dreamer, right?" — Whitney (01:31)

• Intensity and focus: She admits to being “all in or all out,” thriving on passion projects and high-achieving in areas she cares about:

  "If I love it… you’re going to get the sun, the moon, the stars… But if I’m not into it, I’m just not going to give it an ounce of energy." — Whitney (06:52)

3. Perfectionism, OCD & Wellbeing

• Whitney confides about her OCD and how it manifests at home (e.g., strict no-shoes rule) and in work.

  "If I set my mind to it, I will do it… But if I get in a negative loop, it’s really... I cannot get off the loop." — Whitney (09:08)

• How she copes: She credits transcendental meditation (TM), learned from Bob Roth, and spirituality for breaking negative thinking cycles and finding inner peace.

  "Meditation has been huge. Spirituality, not religious… believing in higher power… has been my two godsends." — Whitney (11:14 & 11:24)

4. Burnout & Redefining Success

• The hardest moment:
  Whitney describes the unexpected emptiness and depression she felt after Bumble’s IPO, despite historic external success.

  "On paper, I’m all over the Internet… youngest this, that… but I was empty." — Whitney (14:13) "[After the IPO]... I just zapped myself. I depleted myself of everything. And I was just—it was like the worst time of my life." — Whitney (15:10)

• Rejuvenation and “astronaut syndrome”:
  Whitney realized true success is internal. She learned to distinguish ego fulfillment from soul fulfillment, focusing now on saying “no,” prioritizing inner peace, and letting go of needing external validation.

  "The only place to go from there was in. Stop seeking this outside." — Whitney (17:24) "Ask yourself, what is my measuring stick measuring?" — Whitney (22:43)

5. The Reality of Building a Billion-Dollar Business

• Sacrifice and obsession:
  Whitney is blunt about the all-consuming nature of building a startup—sacrificing health, relationships, and any sense of work-life balance.

  "It is all in all day, all night… There is no off switch. You are on or you are off. That's the truth." — Whitney (25:06)

• No apologies for hard work:
  Both the hosts and Whitney push back against narratives that downplay sacrifice, especially as women face unique cultural/gendered pressures.

6. Motherhood, Guilt, and Gender Dynamics

• Working mom guilt: Whitney and Lauryn discuss the struggle of wanting to be exceptional both at work and at home, and the constant pull and guilt experienced by women.

  "I feel torn between two worlds most of the time. And it—It’s really hard." — Whitney (27:54)

• Gender differences:
  The trio discuss how men and women experience and rationalize guilt differently, with Whitney positing women's nurturing nature makes ‘leaving it at the door’ harder.

  "We are deeply, deeply caring. Sensitive." — Whitney (29:36)

7. Finding “Balance” and Loving Your Work

• Treating Bumble as a ‘fourth child’:
  Whitney reframes her company as part of her family, emphasizing the importance of only making sacrifices for a job if you genuinely love it (37:13-39:48).

• Role modeling for children:
  Whitney shares how her sons (and husband) are positively shaped by her being a strong, entrepreneurial woman—an idea reinforced by her own experience marrying the son of her trailblazing college professor (see 43:02 for this unique story).

8. Mental Well-being, Spirituality & Personal Growth

• Whitney and Lauryn connect about wellness routines: meditation, morning mantras, gratitude, sauna, red light, and “woo woo” influences like Wayne Dyer and Louise Hay (46:32–51:03).

• Efficient routines: Whitney uses tools like voice/video updates at 2.5x speed to manage her workload as a leader and mother (80:10–81:39).

9. Friendship, Boundaries, and Fulfillment

• Whitney keeps a close circle of genuine friends and discusses fulfilling connections—both in her personal life and through Bumble’s mission (52:41–53:57).

• Noteworthy: She recounts a poignant story of a nurse who credits Bumble for helping her leave an abusive marriage and find love, with a moving “sign” that deeply impacted Whitney (56:55–57:49).

10. State of Dating, Bumble’s Vision & AI

• The state of dating:
  Despite media “doom and gloom,” people still earnestly crave connection. The “swipe” mechanism has, however, reached a point of user burnout.

  "The demand is 100% still there. People want love and connection. That has not left the building." — Whitney (58:28) "It has gone from being what it was meant to be… a dating app… to just this swipe swipe app where you’re just swiped into the abyss." — Whitney (58:28)

• Bumble’s next evolution:
  Whitney and Bumble are leaning into new AI-driven features, group meetups, and a renewed focus on in-person connections.

• AI empowerment:
  Whitney personally teaches herself “vibe coding” with tools like Claude and Perplexity, making rapid prototyping and feature development more accessible.

  "If you can't run a team of agents, you probably won't be able to run a team at the best companies in a year from now." — Whitney (87:10)

• AI will replace jobs, but only for those who don’t adapt or learn to direct the technology. (87:10–88:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On measuring success:

  "I've switched out my measuring stick. And I think that is one of the most powerful unlocks for any human being." — Whitney (22:43)

• On why she returned as Bumble CEO:

  "I don't know what to tell you. I mean, listen, if someone's a painter, just because they get tired doesn't mean they're like, never gonna paint again. This is who I am. I need to build. I need to solve problems." — Whitney (64:48)
  (with a story about consulting a psychic medium, a belt buckle, and a sign from the universe)

• On friendship:

  "I have like a pack of 10 people that are my ride-or-die… I kind of keep to myself." — Whitney (53:30)

• On the future of human connection:

  “I think the most valuable thing five years from now is human-to-human connection.” — Whitney (89:21)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:24–03:44 | Motherhood, early imagination, teaching kids creativity & business | | 06:52–09:34 | OCD, all-or-nothing approach, dealing with negative mental loops | | 10:00–11:24 | Discovering meditation, spirituality, and coping practices | | 13:47–15:10 | The burnout and emptiness post-IPO | | 17:24–22:43 | Realizing success must be measured internally, not externally | | 25:06–27:54 | The reality of startup sacrifice; no true balance in early years | | 27:54–30:53 | The work/motherhood guilt, gender dynamics | | 37:13-39:48 | Treating Bumble as a child; advice to working (and non-working) moms | | 43:02–44:40 | Story: Her mentor became her mother-in-law | | 46:32–51:03 | Morning routines, Bob Roth, “woo woo” influences | | 56:55–57:49 | Emotional Bumble nurse story — “that’s a sign” | | 58:28–62:37 | State of dating apps, user exhaustion, Bumble’s evolving approach | | 80:10–81:39 | Whitney’s productivity hack: 2.5x video speed for meetings | | 85:09–86:52 | Whitney on “vibe coding” and using AI to build and test ideas fast | | 87:10–88:13 | On AI replacing jobs, need to master commanding AI tools | | 89:21–89:31 | “Human to human connection is the most valuable thing”—the future according to Whitney |

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

Whitney Wolfe Herd’s journey underscores that achievement and fulfillment are distinct pursuits requiring different measuring sticks. The conversation is refreshingly authentic about burnout, personal frailty, mental health, and the deep, often invisible labor of balancing groundbreaking entrepreneurship with nurturing a family. Whitney’s vision for Bumble and relationships is future-focused: harnessing AI not to further distance humans, but to facilitate even richer, real-world connections.

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For listeners who missed it:
This episode is a must for anyone interested in entrepreneurship, modern relationships, the realities behind high achievement, or the future of technology and human connection. Whitney’s honesty, combined with Lauryn and Michael’s warm, unfiltered style, makes for an inspiring and deeply human conversation.

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Related Book/Resource Mentions

• Meditation (Bob Roth)
• “Signs” by Laura Lynn Jackson
• Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer (spirituality/wellness authors)
• "Made in America" by Sam Walton (business biography)

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Find Whitney and get involved:

• Download Bumble / Bumble BFF (brand new redesign coming summer 2026)
• Bumble BFF groups (Whitney herself is starting one)
• Follow Whitney Wolfe Herd for mentorship and updates

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(End of summary.)

Transcript

[Michael Bostic]

Welcome to the Bostics, starring Lauren Bostic and Michael Bostic. Together they are the Bostics.

[Lauren Bostic]

Let's get the lay of the land. We were talking off air about you as a mother. I feel like you're asked so many business questions all the time and we'll get to that.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Three kids, three kids.

[Lauren Bostic]

What is life really like for you behind the scenes with three kids? Forget about the business for a second

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

and as a wife, probably what it's like for you. I would imagine so. I have three kids, two boys. It's a hybrid of like a wrestling match at my house all day long. I literally have never met anything in my life with more energy than two brothers. It's unbelievable. And now I have a new baby girl. So that has brought like so much harmony and peace. But my babies are everything. Like, they are my number one. I'm obsessed with them. I love being a mom. I just, I mean, I'm sure it's the same way you feel. It's just like they the best. It's the best.

[Michael Bostic]

It is the absolute best. But we're not at the stage because we went girl, boy, boy. And our youngest is only seven, so we haven't like our middle is a ton of energy, but we haven't experienced the two brother energy yet. It's coming. Everyone that has two boys, buckle, buckle up.

[Lauren Bostic]

What kind of little girl were you when you were growing up?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Calm and creative. I would like sit on the ground and draw all day long, like very calm.

[Lauren Bostic]

So you weren't like you. You weren't set up to be entrepreneurial?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Well, I don't know about that because I do think every entrepreneur is inherently imaginative or creative. I mean, that's kind of the foundation of being an entrepreneur. You're a dreamer, right? And all I wanted to do was kind of build these little imaginary worlds and draw them or bring them to life through art. And so I do feel like I had an entrepreneurial kind of capacity. I was always obsessed with creating things. I don't know if that was meant to be in business or not, but I loved to make things and build things and create things.

[Lauren Bostic]

With your own kids now, are you like leaning into that for them?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Kind of, actually. So it's funny, my son was begging me for a job because he wanted to save $200 for this. Like, I'm very anti technology for kids. Like, super scared of it. It terrifies me. But he wanted this, like kid friendly. It basically only calls mom and dad and 911. He wanted to just make $200. And so I've been trying to create. You know, I'm trying to show him what money is and how it works and how hard it is to earn money. So it's. So he was begging for a job. And so over the summer, we got him this little fake job as this little beach lifeguard helper. When we were on a trip and they paid him in coconuts, he was like, this isn't money. What am I gonna do with this? I can't do anything. I was like, well, let's turn the coconuts into a business. So we painted the coconuts, and we called it crazy for coconuts. And then he put a sign out and had the coconuts for sale for, like, $6. But if you wanted a custom coconut, it could be $12. So some of our friends and family were saying, okay, well, I want a coconut with this on it. And so he would go and design it. And then he started to learn, like, how do you make money? So I'm trying to teach him. He's only 6, but I'm trying to instill this kind of imaginative, if you want it, make it, build it, solve it mindset.

[Michael Bostic]

As an entrepreneur, you kind of are able to look at things that others may not see the opportunity in. To your point, with the coconuts.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Exactly.

[Michael Bostic]

So there's an opportunity here if you're clever enough.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

That's exactly right. And I wanted him to take that away as like, okay, someone gimme a coconut. Which is such a good metaphor in life. You know, you feel like you're handed coconuts all day long. Like, oh, I don't want this coconut. You know, whatever that might be in life. Like, someone said this or gave me that, and I love to turn straw into gold. Like, that is my favorite thing to do, is like, okay, hand it to me. It might look like nothing, but I love to find the opportunity in things. And I feel like that's honestly probably how I've built my career, is just seeing the light and looking for the cracks of opportunity in moments that didn't present themselves that way.

[Michael Bostic]

When was the first moment you remember doing something like that, where you were like, there was a light bulb and you said, oh, I can turn something into gold.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

In college, I started a business, so I just wanted to find a way to kind of create change, but also build or do something. And I was part of the sorority, which. It's so funny. When I was in the sorority, I felt. I feel like they hated me because I was, like, a bad sorority person. I. I Get it? I mean, the parking tickets, the absences. Like, I never went to chapter. I mean, I pretty sure they threatened to like, denounce me from the so Kappa. And now I'm. Now they. I think they like me now. So I'm glad. I'm like, I. My picture's still on the wall somewhere. Yeah, I've been. Been reclaimed. So that's good. I started this silly little company in college, these bamboo tote bags. They were like made out of bamboo fibers or something. Environment and I put art on it. And I was selling them around campus to try to raise money for the animals in the BP oil spill. Who knows how or why? I arrived there as an 18, 19 year old, but that was just like one moment of me just trying to go and hustle. And then I learned how to do the little, like, Facebook ads and, you know, I went from there.

[Lauren Bostic]

You're really a creative strategist.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Maybe. I think I have. I'm pretty sure I am just really hyper functioning and have to put my energy into things at all times.

[Lauren Bostic]

You seem like. I feel like I relate to you ever since I listened to you on what's the podcast about? The founders.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

How I built this.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

How I built this.

[Lauren Bostic]

I feel like I relate to you because it seems like you bring an intensity to your work. I feel like I'm very intense at work. But how do you channel that when you're at home? Is there an intense schedule? Are you intense about being present? Is it in your calendar or are you more like lax?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So first of all, I'm trying to be more like you. I saw your, I think your AI calendar that you build.

[Lauren Bostic]

I try. Listen, I've. It's amazing. That's after 10. 10 years, trial and error. I've always been like that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Well, it's amazing. Oh, and by the way, I order all the stuff that you. I have like a shift wave chair sitting in my room. I don't even know how to set it up. Oh, my God.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm gonna text you the best one.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Is it good? It's so good. Okay.

[Lauren Bostic]

It vibrates you.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay. So I need.

[Michael Bostic]

It's supposed to be good for your nervous system and you're like, hrv.

[Lauren Bostic]

You will love it if I. If I like. I heard you on that podcast. I've heard you on other podcasts. You will love it because it changes your state.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Great. I need that. We need that. So, yes, I'm very intense at work. But here's. Here's how I would describe myself. I was the student who either got an A or got a D. If I'm uninterested in something, it just, it's. It's not going to happen. Like, it's just not going to happen. I cannot fake it. I cannot halfway something. I'm either 100% in or I'm just completely out. And so if I love it, if I'm passionate, if I care about it, you're going to get the sun, the moon, the stars and the sky. Like, I will go 100 million percent at something, but if I'm not into it, I'm just, like, not going to give it even an ounce of energy. And so I think I've. I've found a career that I genuinely love. I love connecting people. I love helping people find love. I love bringing people together. It's genuinely my passion, even outside of Bumble. Like, I love to bring my friends together or be like, you need to meet this person, or you're. I like to dot connect with people. And so because I care, I'm going to do a great job at it. And, like, this is how I am with my house. Like, designing a home. I. I mean, I, I'm. I'm a. I'm. I. I am technically ocd. I've been diagnosed with ocd, so I'm very particular. Like, devil's in the details.

[Lauren Bostic]

Tell me about that. What's. What's the ocd? Is it, like, making sure the labels are out? What do we got?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So I'm OCD about a few things. Like, one, I'm completely neurotic and weird about shoes in a house. I'll take it to a different level. Like, I'll hold a grudge if someone comes into my house with shoes on.

[Lauren Bostic]

I can't even have a conversation with someone if they have their shoes on in my house. I. I'm like. I, like, will start. Like, I do that too.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Person's like, you're making me.

[Michael Bostic]

So what do you do when you say shoes off?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, no, there are no shoes in our.

[Lauren Bostic]

No shoes.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, you can't wear shoes in.

[Lauren Bostic]

With your fecal matter shoes. I don't wear shoes in the house.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Exactly.

[Lauren Bostic]

You stepped on a heroin needle outside, and then you want to walk in the house and then the baby's crawling.

[Michael Bostic]

When I was doing my. My skipping around in heroin needles, I forgot about that. Yeah.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, but seriously, it's like, I know there's.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's on the asphalt.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's a joke.

[Michael Bostic]

Well, listen, we don't live in la. We're seeing la. I'm Just kidding, guys. Actually, I'm not. It's true.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So I'm super OCD about that. But I could also obsess over, like, the lining of something if it's. It's off. I just, I fixate on things. But then that also has a downside, right? There's a positive because if I set my mind to it, I will do it. Like, if I say I will get this done and I will build this thing and I will make it work. Oh, I will make it work. But the problem is if I get in a negative loop, it's, it's really.

[Michael Bostic]

It carries you off.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I have, I've. I'm super hypochondriac. So if you, if I get on a loop about like a health thing, I. I cannot get off the loop. And so that's been a problem for me.

[Lauren Bostic]

So you ruminate on it.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yes.

[Michael Bostic]

So if you, if somebody, like, if, if you think that you have some kind of ailment, even if you don't, it's almost like you get. You get stuck in such a way that you can't stop thinking about it and it drives you insane. And then.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yep, it used to. And then I started meditating. Tm.

[Michael Bostic]

Okay. Did you do training for that or you just.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Bob Roth.

[Michael Bostic]

Okay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, I gotta look him up. Changed my life. Oh, you don't know Bob Ross?

[Michael Bostic]

No.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Should he come on the show immediately?

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Bob is spectacular. He is. You know, I was that type of person. I don't know how y' all are, but I was convinced that meditation was just like, not for me. I was like, oh, no, I'm too high functioning for that. I can't meditate. And he came and did this four day session with me. It took a couple times. The first I was like, what? Like, you know, okay, I gotta go like all the lists. And then the second day, it was transcendent and it is a game changer for me. So meditation has been huge. Spirituality, not religious. And no knocking on religion. I mean, be whatever you want to be in this world, but believing in, like, higher power. Coincidence, I don't know. You know, who you need to have on is Laura Lynn Jackson. Who's that? Oh, my God.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay, I'll introduce you to Zuska.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Give me Zuska the facialist. We'll trade all these things. But Laura Lynn Jackson changed my life. She wrote the book signs. Have you read the book signs?

[Lauren Bostic]

I just bought that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay, read the book.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I've been reading it. I'm going to set you up with Her. You need to do a session with her. It's going to change your life.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay. Can't wait. That's a sign.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yep, that's a sign. So, like, having a spiritual connection and meditating have been my two, like, godsends, I think.

[Michael Bostic]

I mean, as you're talking, I wonder if this. If you relate to this. I don't not think meditation is from. I know it could be. And I know other things as well. Like there's other good. But I.

[Lauren Bostic]

You think you're too high functioning?

[Michael Bostic]

No, no, I don't think I'm too high functioning. No, no, no, I don't. I know. And I Like, there's probably trauma work I need to do, and there's probably like. But what happens is I'm like. I get to a place where I'm like, okay, I gotta accomplish a few things to get through a few things, and then I will focus on that.

[Lauren Bostic]

At some point, you're an end then.

[Michael Bostic]

I know I need to do it, but I. Sometimes I don't put it at the forefront and make it a priority. Yeah, I kind of just, like, grit the teeth and go through it.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay. If I were you, I would call Bob Roth.

[Michael Bostic]

Call. Okay. Give me his number.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I will.

[Michael Bostic]

Carson, put this down for me.

[Lauren Bostic]

No, I got him into cranial sacral, which is my favorite thing.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, yeah, that's great.

[Lauren Bostic]

I feel like you're. I feel energetically. I feel like you've done cranial sacral. Okay. So I love it. He. The cranial sacral doctor. Dr. Maria in Austin.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

She's amazing.

[Lauren Bostic]

Told him that he's blocked. He can't get in to the dungeon.

[Michael Bostic]

Okay, listen, I think how you become what you become in life, like, what you're driven. Like, we had somebody on before, like, what drives you is not always what serves you in the long run. Right. And so, you know, I think a lot of people that are maybe type A or driven personalities or people that want to accomplish. Like, there's probably some skeletons in the closet, right? That. That. That's like what the driving force is, right? Like, you probably know better than most. And I think I did a good job of, like, pushing a lot of things down for a long time and probably still do. And so when she says blocked, I think she's just like, I'm not as open to others. Right. And so what I mean by, like, there's probably some things I need to work through is like, I'm aware that there's, like. I'm sure there's things that I need to get out, but I just haven't done it yet.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You haven't done it?

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And you're like, I'm too busy, I'll do this later.

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah. And it's. And the problem is, I know at some point, but what I do is I go, go, go, and then I crash and burn. And we were talking off air, like you now got to a place which we should talk about. You take breaks, but I am very much a like, go, go, go till the wheels fall off and then crash and then recover.

[Lauren Bostic]

What did burnout look like specifically? Eat. Feel all like what. What was the. Give us the whole shebang of what the burnout for you looked like. Was it a day? Was it a year? What was it?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You know, I think my lowest point was the ipo. Which is funny because to the outside world, you know, we IPO'd at $16 billion valuation or something ridiculous. I was 31. I mean, like they had shut the whole street down to turn the office.

[Michael Bostic]

Were you the first woman that had shut down?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Like the youngest woman to take a company public like all this?

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah. Young.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah. But like, so what, you know, and that was, that was my realization was like, on paper, I'm like all over the Internet. I'm the youngest. This, I'm the that. I'm now a self made billionaire on paper and all. Da, da, da, da, da. You know, these are the things that you think for a decade are going to make you feel, feel something worthy or enough or, you know, accepted or validated. Right. Because this is just what you assume drives that. And I think this was this mountain I was climbing for so long. You know, when I got there, I remember after the ipo, I just, I just like broke down and like sobbed. I felt so. I just felt empty. And I had my beautiful baby with me. My firstborn, Bobby, my husband was there. You know, I had it all, but I was empty. And I think I was empty for a couple reasons. The first reason was I had just burnt myself. Like you had said, like to the ground. I mean, I was waking up at three in the morning to breastfeed my child and then, you know, go back to sleep a little bit, then watching the monitor all night and then getting on these, you know, pre IPO lead up because he was already older by then. But it took like a, you know, almost a year to prep for all of this. So I just had this baby. And right when I come out of having the baby, you know, I. We had closed our Blackstone deal. And then shortly thereafter we, like, started prepping to go public. So it was just this race. It was like a marathon while entering into new motherhood. And I just. I just zapped myself. I depleted myself of everything. And I was just. It was like the worst time of my life. I didn't even know which way was up or down. I think I had postpartum depression, which I didn't know what that was. And I felt guilty for having it because I was like, oh, I have childcare. And, you know, I'm. I'm. My baby's healthy. And so there's all these feelings of, like, you don't deserve, or you're not allowed to feel these ways because you have it so much better than others. And there's this narrative of, like, I. I don't have permission to feel this way, and so much pressure put on myself. So I think the IPO on paper to the world, it was like, my wealthiest, you know, most fruitful, most, like, successful moment, right? Like, all over. And I was just completely empty inside. It was just dark.

[Lauren Bostic]

So what did you do to rejuvenate yourself? What are the steps that you took? Because maybe someone's listening right now, and they feel the same way. They feel empty. What did you do?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So the first thing I realized was success is not external. It's just not. It's. It's internal. It really is. Like, no amount of external validation will do it. Like, it doesn't matter. And I think there's this narrative, like, well, when I get to the next level, I'll feel it. Or maybe that next level. That next level. But what happened to me was, like, I got to the top of the mountain. Like, where else was there to go, right?

[Lauren Bostic]

Astronaut syndrome.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I was just like, where? Yeah. Like, where am I gonna go from here? It was. The answer was clear. The only place to go from there was in, like, stop going out. You know, metaphorically. Like, stop seeking this outside. And that was what started my whole quest into meditation and connecting with a spiritual force and having a deeper understanding of the why of everything and kind of decoupling ego from soul, which I think is really an interesting exercise. Like, if your ego lives on this shoulder and your soul lives on that shoulder, and every single thing you do every day, it's like, which side of the road is it going to? Like, are we doing this for our ego, or are we doing this for our soul, which is our higher good? And the funny thing is, these things usually don't like each other. Like, what's good for your soul is Oftentimes not good for your ego and vice versa.

[Lauren Bostic]

What were you doing for your ego and what are you doing now for your soul?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So now I don't do anything for my ego.

[Lauren Bostic]

Nothing?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Nope.

[Lauren Bostic]

What do you. What do you.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Not true. Like, I do, like, beauty stuff, I guess, for my ego. Like, you know, I'm trying to get my hair healthy and like, I, like, I feel like, you know, there's all

[Michael Bostic]

the beauty, but I feel like that's a personal confidence thing.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, it is. It is. And I don't think it's an ego thing in the sense that I'm doing it for others. I think it's more of, like, it fills my cup and makes me feel better about myself. I don't really do anything out of ego. I say no to a lot of stuff now. Like, I don't want to fit in. Don't invite me to the party. Just, like, honestly, don't. Just don't even invite me. I don't even want to go.

[Michael Bostic]

Same same.

[Lauren Bostic]

What is that called? It's not Jomo. It's not fomo. It's just ID W G W G.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, I don't want to go.

[Lauren Bostic]

D W G. No.

[Michael Bostic]

But, you know, here's what I think is so interesting. So, and. And you know this, especially with the work that you've done, there's a lot of men and women that'll look at your accomplishments and they. They dream of. Of having that kind of success and those kind of resources. And what's interesting, talking to people like you and others that have been on the show that kind of reach the top of the mountain is I think if you're not solid here to begin with before you get there, like, no amount of external validation or money or resources or abundance is ever going to solve that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No chance.

[Michael Bostic]

And what I've noticed personally in. In our own lives, not to the same degree, but it's. It's never the end that gives you the satisfaction. Like, it's always the in between in the build. And then what's actually funny is, like, by the time you get to the end, it's a little bit disappointing because you think you build it up and you think it's going feel a certain way, and then it doesn't, and you're like, well, now what?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, no, definitely. And to take it a step further, remember, my journey is not just like, oh, here we go to the top and stay at the top. And like, now we're hanging out at the top. Like, look at what's happened since Then, I mean, our Stock is down 96% for no reason. I mean, who knows what people, you know, trade stock on, right? But if you think that that's also not a wild feeling, like, to fall, okay, you get to the top of the mountain, then you fall off of the mountain. Like, it's, like, it's crazy. And. But here's the cool part. So. Because when I got to the top, I had this epiphany like, oh, wait a second. This was never the quest. Like, this was never the. The journey. Like, the real destination is inner peace and inner validation. So let's go. Let's go on that journey. And then it makes you a better person in the endeavors that you take in the world because you are operating out of a place of, you know, stillness and self assurance, and you're not erratic and you're. You're able to see things clearly. So when our stock tumbled down to, like, nowhere, which, by the way, the company is still performing very well. Like, this is a business that makes almost a billion dollars a year. This is a real company. You know, we posted, you know, I. I want to be careful what I'm saying publicly versus, you know, because we're in a quiet period, but we make, you know, a lot of profit. We're a very profitable business. But the stock is just writing. The stock market has just basically written us off as if we're dead. So that's a very strange feeling to just be written off after being the darling of the stock market. So these are very polarizing feelings. But here's the magic in it. Because I had spent so much time going inward, healing, self reflecting, you know, forgiving, and also, you know, kind of connecting to this inner place of peace and spirituality. I'm not. I'm not impacted by it.

[Lauren Bostic]

Huh?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'm not. I was more. I was. I was more upset internally when I was at the top than I am at the perceived bottom. Because if you were to just look at me from an outsider's lens right now with where. Where things are kind of measuring us, I have a different measuring stick, and that's the biggest differentiator. I've switched out my measuring stick. And I think that is one of the most powerful unlocks for any human being is ask yourself, like, what is my measuring stick measuring as you've grown,

[Michael Bostic]

what do you think was. Why do you think you cared about some of those external validations so much prior to doing the work on yourself?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Seeking love? I think that's what we're all doing as human beings. You know, we are all on this quest to be loved, to be wanted, to be validated, to be needed. And we all have our own wounds. You know, like we were just saying, like, each and every one of us has some inner wound of feeling unloved or not worthy of love. And it's so funny that I'm in this business of love, right? And here I was out in the world helping all of these people find love. And really, the person I needed to help find love was myself. But it was love of myself, because I have an amazing husband who you guys would actually really love him. He's incredible. He's a cowboy in the rodeo in Aspen all summer, Every summer.

[Michael Bostic]

Oh, we went to the rodeo.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, you did?

[Michael Bostic]

You probably saw him.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You probably saw him.

[Lauren Bostic]

Wait, he's, like, performing in it.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, yeah, he's in the rodeo. And my son goes out with him on a pony and they ride out in the rodeo. It's too cute.

[Michael Bostic]

Enough talking about him. I don't like when women come on here and talk about really masculine guys that make me like, it's hot.

[Lauren Bostic]

The rodeo.

[Michael Bostic]

Enough about that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's a different thing.

[Michael Bostic]

Enough. That's how I'm a podcaster. Okay, you know what?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Podcasting is also a road. It's a version of a rodeo.

[Michael Bostic]

I wanted to switch gears with you a little bit. I would feel remiss to not ask you. You've talked about burnout we were discussing before the show started. There's, I think, a lot of miscommunication, misinformation around what it actually takes to build something like you've built or to build, you know, a lot of successful entrepreneurs. And there's this idea of balance. And Scott Galloway was recently on the show, and he said, listen, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Amen.

[Michael Bostic]

You know, I think someone like Kim Kardashian got a lot of shit by saying, like, you have to work your ass off. But what I. I took issue with her getting shit because it's the truth, right?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Like, if you told the truth, she

[Michael Bostic]

told the truth, and people got upset about it. And we went through this weird period of time where everyone was like, tell me everything. I want to hear as long as it makes me feel good. But don't tell me how it really is for someone who's actually built a billion dollar beyond billion dollar company. What did your life look like as you were doing that? And what sacrifices did you actually have to make?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It is all in all day, all night, There is no mode, there is no off switch. You are on or you are off. And that's the truth. Now, there's a caveat. I think in the era of AI, where you have these new tools, we can talk about that in a second. But if we look backwards for anybody that thinks that I just, like, showed up and you know, like, put on a yellow suit and like said, download Bumble, and like, it turned into a billion dollar company, like, sorry, that didn't happen.

[Michael Bostic]

Like, what was. What did each of your days look like?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It was okay, So I was 25 years old when I started Bumble. Just 25 actually. And I probably worked. Let's see, I would work all day, I would obsess all day. I would be so focused that I actually lost touch with most of my friends. I had a terrible relationship with anyone that was further than five feet from me because I was so focused. I luckily was with my husband, who's now my husband, through all of it. So he was my rock. And he's a, you know, he was a really steady person. But listen, I sacrificed everything. My physical health, my mental health, my relationships, my quality of life. I worked all day, every day, and I never stopped. Ever.

[Lauren Bostic]

Wow.

[Michael Bostic]

For how many years?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I was probably in fight or flight for. I was 25 when I started it. 2019, we. I had my first child. We sold to Blackstone. We took it public. 2021. You know what? I would say that this went right until I had my first child. And then I was forced. I mean, as you know, like it jolting, it catapults you into like a whole new 24.7world.

[Lauren Bostic]

And then, and I hope you can talk about this because I sure feel it. You feel guilty at work.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Bostic]

But then you feel guilty at home because you feel like you should be working. It's a real mind fuck.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It is a real, real, real, real, real thing.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yeah, well.

[Michael Bostic]

And what also people don't talk about is like, maybe some people are listening. But why would you make all those sacrifices as you're building what you were building, There's a lot of people that are now reliant on you performing. Your team members, the people that work for you, your investors, your partners. Like, you can't just be like, hey, you know, I'm just turning off because people's livelihoods are now dependent on your performance.

[Lauren Bostic]

But then you also don't want to be on your phone in front of your kids. I mean, that's how I feel.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I mean, welcome to my world. I know it's like, such a conundrum.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's hard. I'm like, hiding in the bath.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah. I feel torn between two worlds most of the time. And it. It's really hard.

[Michael Bostic]

The reason I wanted you so hard.

[Lauren Bostic]

Men, though, are able to switch it off. Like, I notice when he comes home, it's like. Like he's in dad mode. And when he goes to work, he's in work.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

How do you do that?

[Michael Bostic]

I'll explain. Like, I don't know if it's a man or a woman thing, but I would explain how I rationalize it. I just rational like, 1. I grew up with a mom and a dad who both works. Like, my mother always worked. And I just. That was like, a normal example for me. I actually think it's helped me with women later because I'm used to seeing that version. Right.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

That's a gift.

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah. She was always that. She still is. The way that I rationalize it is like, okay, well, I have to put it food on the table and make a living to build resources for the family. And, like, this is just what it is. I could not do that. And, you know, then maybe some of those things are sacrificed. But rationally, I'm like, this is just like, what. It's like, input, output, type thing. Oh, I. I miss the kids. I want to be with them more obviously. I want to spend as much time, but I think I'm able to just kind of. I think a lot of men are able to just say, like, this is what you're supposed to do.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

Gender dynamics are obviously switching.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Gender dynamics are a big deal, though, because I think we do carry a lot of this. This guilt is insane.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's heavy.

[Michael Bostic]

I want to be careful here, but I mean, until the last, you know, hundred or so years, there was very few women in the workplace compared to there are now. There was definitely much fewer women that were leading organizations and building and being the CEOs and the founders. And so maybe from an evolutionary perspective, men have just. The dynamic has been like, men go to work.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

That's very realized.

[Michael Bostic]

You know, maybe we got rid of the guilt generations ago. I don't know.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Perhaps. I also think there's one distinction. I'm curious if you agree with me or not. And I don't say this in a way that men don't care. That's not what I mean. Men do care. And I adore and cherish my boys, my husband. I think men are. You know, there's nothing negative in this statement. I believe that women are so deeply nurturing and caring and thoughtful inherently, that when we care so much at work, we can't just, like, leave it at the door. When we care so much at home, we can't just, like, leave it at home. I just think we are deeply, deeply caring. Sensitive. Sensitive, yeah. And I don't mean that in a. Women are sensitive and men are not. I just think there is this inherent nature to care and to put our everything into what we do. Men do the same. But for me, it's just every mom I know and every father I know, like, they all love their children equally. There's no distinction. Like, I believe that you two both fundamentally love your children the same. There is something about a mom that just feels this need to be present, and it's like this energetic presence that is different.

[Michael Bostic]

It's just 100% different. We take our kids on walks all the time, and sometimes Lauren will start the walk without me, and she'll be like, meet me in the neighborhood and I'll go. And when I'm not there, it's different. When I'm there, they behave different. Like, there's. There's an energy that children react. I'm sure you see this with your husband. Like, it's just. I don't know how to explain it, but I think children recognize that energy. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Tax season is upon us, and here's the thing. Financial stress can affect us more than we know. I used to personally stress about finances all the time. I've talked about it on this podcast for years. Financial stress affects far more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious, serious toll on mental health and relationships. 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[Lauren Bostic]

with how hard you've worked and how intense you've worked and having children, what are you, what have you done that has helped you balance that out? And I don't want to even use the word balance because I don't think like there's, there's not a lot of balance but what has helped and alleviated.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I see Bumble as one of my children.

[Lauren Bostic]

That's a good way to look at

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

it and that's really helped me because if I treat Bumble as this like obligation or this stress or this like thing that I'm sacrificing for my babies, I'm going to hate it and I'm going to stop doing it and that's not really what I want. I love my job, I love my career. I thrive helping build products that can change people's lives. Like I just treat Bumble like one of my children and okay, I'm with this child right now and now I'm with that child and I just, I love, I love what Bumble stands for in the world. And I'm also deeply proud, purpose driven, human. I think what you do in the world changes things. It really impacts people for the better. And so when you can see that there's selflessness also in what you're doing and you're not just plugging away in a way that you hate or you feel unfulfilled, I think it can change the game. And so I always tell my mom friends this. Like I have equal amount of working mother friends as I do non every mother's working. Let's be clear. I Have equal amount of moms with two careers, which is one raising their children and one, you know, working, doing something else. And ones that just choose to exclusively raise their children, which I think both are excellent choices. But the ones that hate their. Their, like, their job. I'm like, you need to stop. Like, don't sacrifice unless you love it, switch it, do something different. I'm not saying quit and give up on a career, but you need to find a career you love. And I think this is the beauty of having children. It makes you more intentional. I think when you have kids, time starts mattering in a way that it didn't matter before, and you stop doing the. Like, I'll stick it out for another year or I'll see how I feel in two years.

[Lauren Bostic]

Or I'll get a drink with you even though I don't know you that well.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah. Or like, this does nothing to enhance the world. Myself, my family, or the world, like, or my life. Like, I'm gonna say no if I don't have.

[Lauren Bostic]

I always say, like, I have capacity for a certain amount right now, and my kids fill a huge buck of that, and my business fills some and my husband. And, like, you have a little bit of capacity left, and you have to figure out where you want to deploy that. And that's the season that I'm in. Some. Some friends don't understand that, and they fall off. They don't understand how. And some of them don't have kids. They don't understand having, you know, three kids under six. And I empathize with that. But you only have a little bit of capacity left, and you have to be strategic with where you allocate that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So true.

[Michael Bostic]

Emma Greed came on and gave us some good advice, and she was basically talking about this and around guilt. And the way she describes is, like, she loves her work and loves what she does. And when she talks to her children, she says, like, I. That I get to go. And she said it changed the way the kids viewed her. Because before it was like, oh, I gotta go to work. And it's this thing. And to your point, if you hate it, then your kids look at you're like, why are you going to do something you hate these.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You're choosing something you hate over me. Right?

[Michael Bostic]

But if they're like, hey, I love it, and it's a thing I get to go do, and I'm passionate about it, the kids are like, oh, great, go have fun.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Emma's incredible, by the way. I mean, she definitely has more hours in the day than I do. I don't, I mean, I don't know how she does it all. She's amazing. But I agree. And you know, I love that you grew up with a mother that, that was working. And I think for me, I'm very proud that I can talk to my children about what I do and how I contribute to the world outside of, out of, outside of their lives. But you know, it's like every different strokes for different folks. I judge no one. It's just this is where I am now. But remember, I took a, I stepped away from CEO. I hired a CEO. I want you to talk about that before, before that.

[Michael Bostic]

I just want to tell you though, real quick, like if it means something like for your boys, I think later in life they will appreciate what you do. Oh yeah. And it'll change their dynamic with strong women.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yes, because.

[Michael Bostic]

And I'll speak more specifically a lot of men, and I could say this, I'm a man. A lot of men get really threatened by strong women, big personalities and strong viewpoints. Yes, they, some, some men get even more threatened by women that maybe the breadwinners or make a big living. I think for your boys, they're not going to experience that dynamic and they're going to be okay. Right. Because like the reality is a lot of young men are going to enter the workforce and if you can just look at the data, a lot of women are doing better financially and are starting to do more and a lot of guys are struggling with that. I think it's actually part of like some of the imbalance in the dating world, which you probably know more about.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, for sure.

[Michael Bostic]

For your boys, like I think the example will be good. And later as they get around more women that are of strong, like they, they'll be more comfortable with it.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, absolutely. And I'm fortunate that I married someone with that mindset. So it's actually kind of a crazy story. So in college, my mentor was this woman who was my professor. She was the most badass woman I had ever met in my life. Like I, I was both scared of her and in awe of her and just enamored by her. And she just took, you know, no crap from anyone. She was strong, she was self assured, she was confident, she was brilliant, she was amazing. And I had this insane phobia of public speaking. Like I would never in my life have been able to do this. And one day, all of a sudden, it turns out that her class is judged on the ability to present in front of the class that's how you get your grade. So I went and got a doctor's note, obviously. And I was like, no, like, I can't. I'm too scared. Like, I have a phobia. I have a clinical reason not to. She ripped it up and she was like, oh, girlfriend, no, no, you're gonna do this. You're gonna be fine. Fast forward. Turns out she's now my mother in law.

[Michael Bostic]

No way.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yep. So years later, I meet her son who has been raised by this unbelievable woman. And he invites me to dinner, to a group dinner. I walk in, she's across the table. I look at him, I go, why is Professor Heard here? Professor, that's my mom. And she goes, whitney Wolf with the good eyebrows. And I was like, oh my God. But what is happening right now? So that is the grandmother to my babies.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh my God. That gave me chills.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, she's like the most powerful badass. Cool.

[Lauren Bostic]

Did you pass the class?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, but Michael. So my mother in law is a gay woman. And so Michael always teases me that she gave every blonde an A. And I was like, you know what? I just.

[Lauren Bostic]

She didn't say you had good eyebrows.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

She did say I had good eyebrows. So. No, but she said I deserved it. I deserved. I deserve the A. So. She's amazing. She's maybe the coolest person I've ever met in my life. And I just, you know, to have such a force of nature like that in my life is this person that now the grandmother to my children is such a gift. And I had no idea she even had a son. So it was kind of amazing. But to your point, like, he was raised by that. So he respects me. He respects strong women. The more powerful I become, the more he admires me. And that was never the case I ever saw with men prior. Like any sense of power or any sense of strength was such a, like a threat to them. And obviously it's, you know, it's not. That's not, that's not great.

[Lauren Bostic]

I would go as far to say it's a turn off.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yes.

[Lauren Bostic]

I like, I remember before Michael, I never got approached by anyone.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, we both have Michaels, by the way.

[Lauren Bostic]

We both have Michaels.

[Michael Bostic]

Well, I think what the turnoff is for anyone this is men and women in any dynamic is insecurity.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

We are inherently. Anybody is turned off by insecurity.

[Lauren Bostic]

But here's the thing that's funny is I'm intense and I'm strong and I love to like come in to my office and like lay it down but at home, I'm soft and feminine and a homemaker, and I love being a wife. And, like, I'm very, like, very in my feminine. So I think you can have both. It doesn't have to be like, one or the other.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I could not agree more. I'm the same way.

[Lauren Bostic]

I know.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I can tell with your super cozy mommy mode at home.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's gorgeous. Where did I see that? Maybe Arc died.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You just told it.

[Lauren Bostic]

Where did I see that, though?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I've seen it because somebody else bought it and it's on the Internet now. Okay.

[Lauren Bostic]

Is that where I saw it?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, probably.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay. It's a beautiful house.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It was such a special place that.

[Lauren Bostic]

Where you're going through every detail, is that, like, are we like, doing the baseboards and like.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, not there. That was a. Like a super vintage hacienda from like the 1800s. It was extraordinary, super spiritual. It was a chapter. There's a chapter.

[Michael Bostic]

Were you too slow there?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

We just.

[Lauren Bostic]

We.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

We chose. You know, I married a Texan and there just. We needed to choose where to anchor, and we chose that. That was not our base. I love it there. I love my friends there. I met the most yummy, amazing humans that will be like lifelong people. But it was a chapter. It was a season. And I think life, you know, we have these little seasons.

[Michael Bostic]

Is your husband going nuts over there?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, but. No, he was actually having a lot of fun.

[Lauren Bostic]

You mentioned your morning routine when you were grinding, which is you're waking up at 3, 3am you're breastfeeding, you're staring at the monitor, etc.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Etc.

[Lauren Bostic]

What does your morning now look like when you feel anchored, when you're tuning into your soul and not your ego now?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So I really, really, really try. I've fallen off the wagon a little bit. Not, not. Not to lie. You know, obviously we all go through these ups and downs. When I'm in my best routine, I am waking up at 5:30 saying my morning mantras, prayers, my meditation. I really like to start the day by. And not like in a, you know, religious capacity, but like, dear universe. And then I pray for others. Like, the first thing I do is like, pray for the people I know that are going through something hard. You know, if someone's struggling with something, with health or someone's in it, I just wake up and just. Just really say prayers for people to heal. And I. I just wish well on people. It's the first thing I do in the morning.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's a great way to wake up

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

and I just feel like it just. It. It just gives this energy to the day that is, like, genuinely rooted in positive intention. And then I pray for the protection of my loved ones. And I give thanks to the universe. Like, just thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, you for every little thing I have. And so I just say these silent kind of mantras and prayers in my head and try to be still. And if I'm really good, I'll do tm. Bob Roth will be mad at me because I was in such a rhythm where I was doing it twice a day every day. And I was like, on another planet of tapped in. But I have fallen off the wagon there a little. And then, you know, I have a brand new baby, so I like to get up and go, like, smush her face. She's so delicious. And then it's like the day goes. But I'm. I'm kind of like you. When I get into my routine, I'm, like, obsessed with the sauna, obsessed with the red light. Have you ever tried the immortal bed?

[Lauren Bostic]

No.

[Michael Bostic]

Is that the one that's got the, like. It's, like, not. It's a glass and it, like, sits.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

And it looks like it's gonna mash you in.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, they have it in Aspen. I just go use it at the place.

[Michael Bostic]

I know what you're talking about. It's got the sounds.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, it's cool. So, like, I'm doing all these things. I ordered your thing that you promoted, the shiftwave thing. Like, I'm trying to do all this stuff. I have the power plate, you know, that shaky thing. I don't know if that works.

[Michael Bostic]

Oh, she's in there.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Do all the skins.

[Lauren Bostic]

You should see me. I'm listening to affirmations on the plate, brushing my teeth, doing posture exercise, looking outside, trying to get you, because that's what you have to do.

[Michael Bostic]

Is the final boss of, like, the morning routines on Instagram. Who's doing it?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

This is you.

[Lauren Bostic]

I think I might be the mob boss of.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Honestly, I try.

[Lauren Bostic]

I get 40 things done at once.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I love that about you. Yeah. Like, I will have. My husband always teases, cuz. And I learned about him through one of my dear friends, Sarah Blakely, who, if you haven't had her on, you've

[Michael Bostic]

had her husband on. But not her yet.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

But I'd love to have Sarah Sarah

[Michael Bostic]

come on the show.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Sarah's spectacular.

[Lauren Bostic]

That's another person.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Bostic]

There's three people you've recommended.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

She turned me on to Wayne Dyer. Who I'm now like, obsessed with.

[Lauren Bostic]

You and I are on the same.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Are you doing Wayne Dyer too?

[Lauren Bostic]

That is so weird.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's really. Yeah, you better be careful about Wayne Dyer.

[Lauren Bostic]

Like a very, like, niche. Vintage.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's very vintage niche. Woo woo.

[Michael Bostic]

You know what? You got to be careful because listen, you're a public CEO, and that's fine. And this show, sometimes the people, they'll come in and say, this shows this. Getting a little woo woo. That's what's happening.

[Lauren Bostic]

I am woo woo. And don't you forget it.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You know what? My woo woo made it all happen. Yes. That energy is why things move.

[Lauren Bostic]

Are you listening to his lecture or his book?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Anything? Wayne Dyer. I've listened to it.

[Lauren Bostic]

You. And that is so weird.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Sarah Blakely got me turned onto it and look what she's built. She's the queen I'm listening to right now.

[Lauren Bostic]

If anyone wants to start turn on

[Michael Bostic]

a little more Wayne Dyer.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay? I do. Every morning. Are you not listening?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Love it.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh, because you hear it. That's the one I'm on.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

That's a good one.

[Lauren Bostic]

But the one before was the power lecture. Maybe. He is so good.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I love him. I mean, I don't know anything about him because I think he, like, predates us a little bit. But whatever I do know is just what I've listened to. And I think he's amazing.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm assuming you've listened to Louise Hay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, love Louise Hay. Got super deep on the telepathy tapes.

[Lauren Bostic]

I haven't heard about that. What's that?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh, my God.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

What is happening here? Oh, wait. Okay, start them immediately. Like, like run. And then you need to have Kai Dickens on your show.

[Lauren Bostic]

Who's that?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

She did the telep. Okay. Just you and I are gonna woo woo for an hour. But then the funny thing about me. Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. That's perfect. The funny thing, though is like, I can go all down this rabbit hole. Like, you want to go near death experiences. I've read 100 books on it. But then you want your death experience. I don't know. I got fascinated with it. And then if you want to talk business, I've read every. I mean, I actually was never a big business book reader.

[Michael Bostic]

Which ones do you think are worth reading? Because, like, here's the thing. I think same as you, I like.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'm just kind of like.

[Michael Bostic]

I kind of stopped reading them.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

Because they kind of be.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

They all say the same thing in a different format and I'm also, like, I don't want to be you as a leader. Like, I don't want to be you. Like, I want to be me. I just need tools to be a better version of you.

[Michael Bostic]

So which do you like?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Well, I think there's some iconic ones that, like, everyone should read. My mind is blanking right now on my favorite one. But, like, there's a couple just basics that everyone should read, like, Made in America. Sam Walton.

[Michael Bostic]

Great book.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Everyone should read that book.

[Michael Bostic]

It's really more of a biography, though, right?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

But in my mind, it. Understanding the human and the way someone moves through the world. That's my version of a business book. Like, I have zero interest in reading, like, how to scale your business from. Like, I'm just. Like. I'm. Like, I'm good. I know how to scale.

[Lauren Bostic]

So you're good?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'm good. You could write all the books together. No, but, like, that is just not what I'm into.

[Michael Bostic]

I'm good. I know how to scale.

[Lauren Bostic]

Wait, so you'll go down rabbit holes when it comes to reading and.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, yeah, I'll go down, like, physics rabbit holes, philosophy rabbit holes. Like, went full obsessed on philosophy.

[Lauren Bostic]

Are you reading Wayne, or are you listening to Wayne?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, I like to listen to Wayne. So do I. I like his voice.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yes. So do I.

[Michael Bostic]

Let me ask you this.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh, my God. That's so weird.

[Michael Bostic]

This is a little bit of a gear shift. When you have the success that you've had and the headlines that you get, how are you then, after that, able to decipher who's coming around you for the right reasons and who's looking for an opportunity?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I don't hang out with anybody.

[Lauren Bostic]

What about your mom friends?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay, all my best friends I've either known, okay, my best. Best friends I've either known since my dearest friend in the world is my best friend from summer camp when we're 11.

[Lauren Bostic]

Amazing.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay? So she's my number one. She actually is an incredible jewelry brand. She's. Her name is Jessie Lazowski. Marlo Lass. If you haven't seen her stuff, it's to die for. She's so amazing. She's incredible. And then, you know, my other best girlfriends are, like, just true blue mom friends or my best college girlfriends I hang out with. I have, like, a pack of 10 people that are my ride or die. And then I just have, like, wholesome, cozy family friends that, like, my husband and I are friends with the mom and the dad and we're friends with the kids. Like, I kind of keep to myself.

[Michael Bostic]

Do you think it's harder make good new friends because of the profile, or

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

do you think, no, I'm super not like that. Like, I don't really care if someone wants to be friends with me because of Bumble and they're cool and funny. I'm like, God bless. Like, cool. Let's go. Like, I mean, as long as they're fun. Like, I'm in that stage of life where I'm like, if your vibe is hilarious, cool, connected, fun. Like, use me. If you want to listen to Wayne

[Lauren Bostic]

Dyer, must listen to Wayne Dyer.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

But I'm not. I'm just not like that. I'm, like, pretty chill. I'm not really guarded. I. I don't really think I'm anything special, if that makes sense. Like, I have a lot of friends that have started businesses and they, like, roll with security and they, like, super, like, like important, like, sunglasses in a lot of places. And I'm like, I'll just roll through the pharmacy or the grocery store. I'm like, no one knows who I am. No one gives a shit. Like, not one person cares about it

[Lauren Bostic]

surprises me that people don't come up to you all the time.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

They. They do, but not in, like, a. Not in, like, the way you would expect. They come up to me and they're like, this is my bumble baby.

[Michael Bostic]

That's cool.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And I'm like, I love you. That is so cool.

[Lauren Bostic]

You know what? What I'm hearing throughout this interview is you've really mastered the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. Because with the art of fulfillment, you get the. You get helping people fall in love, which. What's better than that? And you a bumble baby. I mean, that's. That's very fulfilling. But you also have the science of achievement with your career. It's so fruitful. You've really got them both.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I never thought about it that way, but I think you do too.

[Lauren Bostic]

I. I do feel that I have that because the podcast is, to me, is fulfillment. My product line. Yeah, I think, like, it's a little different.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's amazing.

[Lauren Bostic]

My company for.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And by the way, you've changed my life with the mouth tape, so let's just put it out there.

[Michael Bostic]

Well, we're. That's. Yep. No, no. And I.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And the eyebrow.

[Michael Bostic]

Personally, the most excited and fired up is, like, when people will come up and say some area of their life was changed for the better based on something.

[Lauren Bostic]

But I'm gonna say it's cooler. That's how you have A Bumble baby.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You know what? I will tell you the thing that does keep me going. Because let's just be real. Like, work gets worky. It gets worky sometimes. It's the success stories, it's the people that tell me. I mean, you can't even imagine the stories I've heard. It's the stories of people who have come back from grief, met the loves of their lives, have multiple kids, never thought they would ever meet anyone. Now they're thriving. Crazy story, actually. When I had Bobby, my first son here in Austin, delivered him in Austin, I got super, super scary postpartum preeclampsia. Ended up back in the hospital. And they were like, touch and go, God knows what's gonna happen. It was quite scary. And this nurse came into my room and she kind of felt like an angel, but she was real. I've confirmed. And she told me that she. And by the way, if anyone can find this nurse, I want to speak to her. So if anybody can locate this person, please bring her my way. But she told me that she had to break HIPAA and come talk to me because she heard them talking about me at the nurse's station. Bumble, girl, I probably sent like cookies or something, you know, like I was always doing something for the nurse station. She said, I had to come talk to you because. And she grabbed my hand. She goes, I was in an abusive marriage for decades. And I read about you and I read about Bumble and I read about why you started Bumble. And so I got the courage to leave my husband. And when I got back on my own two feet and felt strength again, I downloaded Bumblebee. And I have never in my life met anyone with his name before. And I had to come talk to you because he's my fiance now and he's the love of my life. And when you go back to the hospital with a motherhood like a newborn, like a mother related illness, they actually take you back to labor and delivery. They don't put you in normal ER or icu. They take you to labor and delivery and monitor you there for infection reduction, all that. So I was back in labor and delivery. And you remember having your baby. They write mommy's name and baby's name out on the door. And she said, his name is Bobby Lee and that's my son's name because we named him after my husband's grandfather. So I was like, okay, if that's not a testament to keep going. And just like, like you just gotta keep on going when work Gets hard.

[Lauren Bostic]

That's a sign.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

That's a sign. Read the book. Signs.

[Lauren Bostic]

I cannot wait to read. That is a huge sign.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yep.

[Michael Bostic]

Speaking of, of bumble, I think we'd be remiss. What is going on from your perspective, reading the data, a dating company, what is going on in the dating world? A lot. If you, if you read the headlines, there's a lot of doom and gloom. A lot of people saying they're giving up. Younger people not getting into intimate relationships,

[Lauren Bostic]

getting a little too swipey. Swipe.

[Michael Bostic]

I mentioned on a show that people are concerned about people procreating is like, are not having as many babies and that society is going to be crumbled because we're not procreating. And like what are you seeing and what is the data show from your perspective?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

The demand is 100% still there. People want love and connection. That has not left the building. It just has not. I think the way in which they're able to find love and connection is not serving them in a way that it used to. I think the swipe has and I admit to this. I'm super self aware and we're reinventing ourselves and we're building new features and functionalities. I think this like mass availability of mass people at all times at the tip of your fingers, it has burnt people out and it has gone from being what it was meant to be, a dating app, which would insinuate what gets you on good dates. Right. And then if the date goes well, hopefully that turns into a relationship or something fruitful. Right now we're calling ourselves the Love Company because love doesn't have to be marriage and babies, but we want to put more love into the world and we want to bring people together face to face in the real world. And so what we are doing right now is to meet the demand of people wanting to meet. They're desperate to meet. They're doing anything. I mean they're literally setting up these little clubs in their area and trying to meet people through anything. Like they're willing to go back to church when they're not even religious because they want to meet people. That is the craving of, of the fabric of society right now is like people want to meet people but they don't know how because of a few things. Thing one, social media has completely desensitized everyone and disconnected us. We are living through these like alternate realities of what's real. Dating apps probably have played a role in this too because we were meant to be a dating app, but it turned into Just this like swipe swipe app where like you were just swiped into the abyss, right? Or maybe you got all these matches and they just never went anywhere. These dead end chats and ghosting and all of this heavy like rejection layered with judgment and it just kind of taxed people. And so I see it as my duty and this is part of why I am back is I'm a problem solver and I'm certainly not going to leave the industry in the state that it's in right now, which is not in a bad place. It's just in a moment or it needs evolution. It does. It's not bad, it's not broken, it's not dead. I mean, I think Wall street and the media are being super overreactive and way more pessimistic than they need to be. Partly that's kind of the role they play in the world. So where I think things go from here is I think we're at the most interesting intersection I have personally ever arrived at in my career, which is where AI can just supercharge human connection. So we are absolutely going to transform the way people meet. We are leaning into bringing people together through groups, through events, through in the real world. So my big vision for Bumble is in five years from now, every single person can meet someone through Bumble. Not on Bumble. Maybe that's at a Bumble event, maybe that's in a group, maybe that's through a group date that you went on. A girlfriend of mine was telling me last night she's dating someone right now that she met on Bumble. And I was like, oh my God, like where'd you meet and where'd you match? Well, I didn't. She said, I matched with this friend and I went on a date with his friend and his friend brought him. But we clicked. Me and my match didn't click and my match realized that me and the friend clicked and was like, you two have something going on here. Now they're dating. So I believe that success in number is the next frontier. And so we're really focused on building capabilities that are AI powered. So it will be like as seamless and as efficient and as non exhaustive as possible to get you on our products. Bff, which is doing very well with Gen Z in particular and Bumble Date to then get you offline to a safe meetup as quickly as possible. We just want to bring people together in the real world. And tell me what is more powerful in this era of AI where we are really replacing everything and automating everything than human connection.

[Michael Bostic]

It's funny. Like, we're doing. And Carson knows this as a company, like, this is a digital company. We produce a lot of digital content. But we're doing. This year, we're doing the first one in May, and then we'll do another one later. We haven't announced really yet, but we're bringing people offline together because I think it's so important. And the company's like, why doesn't dear

[Lauren Bostic]

media partner with Bumble?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Let's do it together.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yes, you should do something.

[Michael Bostic]

But to your point, I see what's happening here, and I'm like, why? Like, every time we do these events and I see everyone there and there's a happy hour and they're talking, they're connecting. Like, that's. The digital content should be a reinforcement and a tool to help you interact in the real world.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Amen, my friend.

[Michael Bostic]

Right? Not like you shouldn't live in a bubble online. Right?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And they weren't designed that way.

[Michael Bostic]

It's. It's. You know, I. I got a lot of. I'm sure you dealt with this too. When Covid happened, everybody went remote. And slowly but surely, I've been kind of enforcing and making people get back in person and, like, listen, people kick and scream about that. I want the flexibility. It's like, no would, you know, I want people to connect in life with each other. That's why you end up caring about something. That's why you end up caring about people. Like, staring at a screen. Remember when we were doing those happy hours on the screen, on the zoom. So one of the most depressing times in my life is sitting there having a whiskey, looking at a bunch of cream.

[Lauren Bostic]

I walked in on a video. Everyone gets so mad. I get texts on video. Zoom.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I won't do it. I'm doing.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm not going to stare at a screen.

[Michael Bostic]

Happy hour.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I don't want to do it either.

[Michael Bostic]

One of the most depressing times in human history. We're all sitting alone in your house, drinking, looking at each other on a. I completely agree. I think it, like, reminding people that, like, hey, we're designed for connection and to be around each other.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Right?

[Michael Bostic]

Like, and you can use a tool.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

We are better together. We are better together.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's genius, though. To use AI as the tool that it is is to then get the connection, which is the meat of what is needed.

[Michael Bostic]

So let's talk about the other reasons you decided to come back. You left. You stepped down a CEO. You brought in another CEO.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

And you can't.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Was it you want me to do you want the.

[Lauren Bostic]

The real reason?

[Michael Bostic]

Were you sitting around?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You're not going to believe the real reason?

[Michael Bostic]

I might.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It's a little woo woo, like no one knows the show to do it on. Go ahead. Hey, you want the real reason I came back?

[Michael Bostic]

What's the story?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay, so here's the real deal. I was very happy and I did not want to be a CEO again. I was loving, I was living la vida loca, okay? I was having a great time. However, I am, I'm an entrepreneur. I don't know what to tell you. I mean, listen, if someone's a painter, just because they get tired doesn't mean they're like, never gonna paint again. This is who I am. I need to build. I need to solve problems. I need to create. I need to put things into the world. It is who I am. However, swear on my life, I had no intention of going back to Bumble. And I love, love, love the woman that was our CEO for a year. I think she's, she's brilliant, remarkable. She, for her own reasons, like, nothing bad, like nothing weird, truly decided it was her time to go. And she was like, I'm just like, this isn't right for me right now, whatever. And I think she's brilliant. There was no falling out. We keep in touch. I think she's lovely. But I was like, okay, well, I mean, I'm not the same. I don't think I can go and do this again. Like, I don't know if I can just like go back. This isn't really what I wanted for my life right now. I had kind of like had this itch to start something new. I was like thinking of new companies and new products. But the weirdest thing happened about a week before she let me know was I had this like crazy download, which was that my purpose on earth was basically to help people find love. So I was off trying to find other ways to do it. I was like, oh, well, to start a company for this or a company for that. Like, I was thinking of all these other businesses and I just kind of. When she decided it was like the right moment for her to move on to her next thing, I felt like the universe was pulling me and just doing it for me. You started this conversation off by saying, things don't happen to you, they happen for you. And I was like, this is clearly happening for me. But I wasn't convinced. So before I agreed to like really go all Back in, I did what any really, really smart, sane business person does. And I called my psychic medium.

[Lauren Bostic]

You gotta text me that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Laura Lynn Jackson.

[Lauren Bostic]

Laurelyn Jackson.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay. And you know, it's funny, I have like a crazy network of brilliant business people, but before I texted them, I was like, she's my friend, she's my go to.

[Lauren Bostic]

I gotta call her.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I get it. So I was like, I was like, laurelin, here's the deal. Like, what am I meant to do? I'm like having so much fun. I'm like, starting these new companies. They're gonna be billion dollar businesses and da, da, da, da. And I'm like, loving life with my husband and my kids and like, you know, doing my thing. And she goes, okay, I am getting a message from your, you know, like, past one, like someone that I love that had passed. She, like, he's telling me to look on the back of your husband's belt. And I'm like, okay, we got. I gotta go. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call CEO. Like, I can't do this. This is getting too weird. She's like, no, like, I'm being shown this like, belt buckle. Like a silver belt buckle with a bunch of like, like a silver, like a, like a scene. There's like a scene on the front of this belt buckle. And I'm like, huh? Like, oh, I actually know what she's talking about.

[Michael Bostic]

Like a rodeo belt buckle.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'm like, oh, my God. It's my husband's like, Texas rodeo belt buckle. So my husband does this like, iconic, like, boys trip, rancher, like cowboy thing. And whoever wins this like, championship thing they put on gets this like, belt buckle. And I was like, I think I know what she's talking about. She goes, okay, I'm getting this persistent message. You've got to go look on the back of the belt buckle. The message is on the back of the. But you're going to know what to do if you're going back a CEO or not. I'm not going to tell you the answer. Go get the belt buckle and look on the back of the belt buckle and whatever is there is your answer and you will know right away. And I was like, okay, I think, I think I need to, like, take it down. Like, we're gonna, we're gonna like, move on. So I get home and I kind of forget about it. And then it hits me and I'm like, michael, where's your belt buckle? And he's like, my what? I'm like, where's the, like the big belt buckle, the silver belt buckle. And he's like, I don't know in the room. I'm like, go get it. So he gets this belt buckle and he brings it back and it is in fact the big silver belt buckle with the Texas scene on it. And we turn it over and inscribed in the back of the belt buckle, every single word is the man in the arena by Theodore Roosevelt.

[Lauren Bostic]

Bam.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

My favorite quote.

[Michael Bostic]

It's cool belt.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It is how I've like measured my career being like, just be in the arena like every day. You gotta get out there. Even if you get marred, even if you're like muddied and covered in blood, like, at least you're not in the nosebleeds. At least you're in that arena. And I was like, I'm going back.

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[Lauren Bostic]

Get ready for both you and your

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[Lauren Bostic]

I carry this in my handbag. We have it in our supplement drawer.

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[Lauren Bostic]

So how I use this is anytime

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[Lauren Bostic]

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[Michael Bostic]

Quick break to talk about free nicotine. I love free nicotine. I have been a nicotine user for years and I've constantly dabbled in experimenting with nicotine as something that can help my brain focus, help me get shit done and keep me on my game. Many are aware that nicotine is addictive and a chemical and you have to be very careful with it. But many are also unaware that it can be used as a tool for focus, for cognitive performance and to potentially guard against brain related diseases. They have three milligram pouches for somebody who's just starting with nicotine. Six, nine, 12 and 15 for people that are experienced and free exists for the ones that want to stay sharp when it counts. Like I said, I use it when I need to do this podcast, when I need to focus, when I really need to get stuff done. And I love it for its cognitive enhancing benefits. It's also great because it comes in these discreet slim pouches for anywhere smoking can't and vaping won't and dip shouldn't. There's been a ton of high performers that have come on this podcast, from Dave Asprey to RFK Jr. To some comedians, people who really want to feel their best and really focus when they're doing a show like this or when they want to get stuff done. That's how I use it. So if you've been thinking about experimenting with nicotine free nicotine is a great company to try. And like I said, you can really control the dosage and the strength. So check them out. Try free nicotine pouches [e-mail] and use code skinny for 25% off for new customers only. That's F R E pouch.com again freepouch.com and use promo code Skinny.

[Lauren Bostic]

Introducing the Skinny Confidential ice roller. Reimagined. Think sleeker lines. A softer pink, a custom buttery dust bag and a silver roller. Not pink anymore. That is ice cold. I wanted to do a zhuzh on the iconic ice roller. I wanted to update it. This ice roller for me has always been more than just a tool. It's about helping us de puff and sculpt and calm the skin in a way that feels intentional. And I wanted the ice roller to feel evolved. Evolved. It's changed. You've changed. So, yes, the new gorgeous, stunning, beautiful ice roller is still going to do the same things. It reduces puffiness and redness in your face. I used it this morning before I put on my makeup. It definitely helps with the under eye bags. Of course, it helps boost circulation and radiance. I just feel like it really helps stimulate blood flow and gives me that tighter, more radiant skin. And then it also is known to give you smoother, tighter looking skin. So what I like to do is I like to combine facial massage with cold therapy. And this really helps give you a really nice foundation before you even apply your skin care. This ice roller for me is a full circle moment. I think that a lot of you bought the ice roller, you know, five, six years ago when we launched it, and now I am launching something that feels, feels more in alignment with where you're at. It's so beautiful, you guys. Like, it's just softer and more effortless in every way. And I really put my own touches on every single little step, from the packaging to the colors to how it feels to even the roller. It's all been elevated just for you. So the ritual, the Lauren ritual, is you do cold therapy to help fight inflammation. You roll it. You glide it across your face. I put it on my jawline, my neck, I roll it down. Your skin is just going to appear smoother and tighter before you go in for the kill with the skin care and the makeup, don't skip the cold therapy. The new ice roller is an upgrade designed to meet the standards of today, and I hope you guys love it as much as I do. This is the beauty tool that started it all redesigned to evolve with you. I'm showing it on YouTube, too. If you're on YouTube, if you're seeing me visually get it, why it's [e-mail] that's shopskinnyconfidential.com we prep for all these shows.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah.

[Michael Bostic]

And one of the things I said to the team, I was like, I guarantee you the reason this person goes back is because they are not built to sit on the sidelines and relax. It's just not possible.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Bingo.

[Michael Bostic]

You can't. You can't build the way you have and then. And be as productive as you've been and then one day, like, be unproductive. Right? Like, and a lot of people, like, their ambition is to one day, like, take it easy and relax, and that's fine. And to each their own. But I think for someone like yourself who is a builder and a creator and you're not wired to sit like that, actually, like, I think that would make you more anxious and more stressed and cause a lot of actual unhappiness in your Life to just 100.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No. Like, I am meant to change things in the world that I do not like or cause people harm or stress or make improvements. Like, I like to improve things.

[Lauren Bostic]

And now we get you in Austin.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Bostic]

Before you go, you have to tell me how you manage your time. What gets your time and attention? Why did you come on this show?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

What.

[Lauren Bostic]

What is worthy of your time?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I love you.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh, not you. Just me. You too?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, I love you, too. But I. Okay. I just really. I vibe with you. Oh, my God. That's very. Let me tell you what I like about you so much. Here's the thing I love about you so much.

[Michael Bostic]

Are you guys. Are you guys having a moment?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, we're having a moment. I love that you are multifaceted. And unapologetic about it. I find that a lot of women that have found a lot of success or are really, like, career oriented have a hard time being vulnerable about the other components of their life. Like, if they're, like, a strong businesswoman, like, they're a strong businesswoman, and that's the only side you're ever gonna see. And it's, like, almost like just this, like, shell that you'll never see beyond it or behind it. And that's just. We're made up of a lot of parts. All of us are. We're multifaceted. And so I love that you are unapologetic about being, like, a nurturing, loving mom, being cozy and like. Like, making a home and making it feel special, but then, like, being a total boss at work and, like, having these different sides of you. And I don't. I don't personally know so. So, so many people like that. And I don't know. I just. I like. I like you. I think you're cool, and I think you're really cool, too. And I love your show, and I think you have honest, open, vulnerable conversations. And frankly, that's where I'm at in my life. Like, I just want to be real and open, and I have nothing to hide. And I just think more authenticity is better for. For the world.

[Lauren Bostic]

I will take that coming from the world's youngest female billionaire.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Is that the right.

[Lauren Bostic]

Is that the right?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I don't think I am now. There's, like, all sorts of other ones. I mean, I'll take it.

[Lauren Bostic]

I mean, listen, I better get some good compliments from.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

There's so many other younger women than

[Michael Bostic]

me when you're not here and we go and you will list the. The accolades.

[Lauren Bostic]

I just want to know, though I do have to just know. Like, this is a selfish question that I would ask you off air. Is the calendar crazy? Are you a psycho? Is it color coded? Is what's your time? I just want to know. Like, I just want to know.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, everyone has color. Everyone has the color.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And is it, like, how long is the meeting?

[Lauren Bostic]

Like, well, if you, like, are you someone who's like, get the meeting in seven minutes.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You know what I've started doing? What? Don't tell anyone. It's fine.

[Michael Bostic]

Only a few people listening.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So you want to hack efficiency? Hack. So when I was on mat leave, I just had my baby, you know, a few months ago, by the way, I did do a natural birth, which was crazy.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yeah, you got to tell us about that.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I mean, I'M like, if I ever have another kid, I'm getting an epidural right when I get to the hospital.

[Lauren Bostic]

So I thought you were going to say you're going to do a natural birth again.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, no one is good. Okay. I'm glad I did it. Okay. Okay. All of that to say. When I was on mat leave, I had, you know, I was trying really hard to at least for the first several weeks, be, like, very present with my children. I understand this so much, but I really couldn't just, like, disappear. Clearly not. I'm the CEO of the company, and I am, like, in the middle of building a lot of stuff, and I care, and I want to make it right. So I would ask people to record videos for me. Of. Of what? They take me through a meeting, but just record it, send it to me, and then I would listen to it at, like, 2.5x. So my husband one day walked into the kitchen, and there was like. And he was like, what the. What is that? I'm like, oh, I'm just. I'm hearing an update on something that they're working on. And he's like, how do you even hear that? So I've trained myself to listen to things at, like, the maximum speed. And so then I could get through, like, 15 updates. And these videos were, like, 15 minutes long, 22 minutes long, 46 minutes long. And I was just plowing through them, and I was taking notes and like, da, da, da, da. So I. I don't know. I just make it work.

[Lauren Bostic]

I will tell you something. It takes a lot to get my husband interested in someone. I can tell you after this episode, he wants to hang out with you. He's very interesting.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Of course.

[Lauren Bostic]

He loves interesting people.

[Michael Bostic]

He, like, if you weren't, I would have cut the show by about 40 minutes.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No.

[Lauren Bostic]

Sometimes I'll look over at him and it like, his. His eyes are glazing over his head.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Are you bored?

[Michael Bostic]

No.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's where.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

If I lost you, did I lose

[Lauren Bostic]

you in the moment? He puts his note cards like this. Go watch it, guys. That's a hack.

[Michael Bostic]

But no, don't give my tails.

[Lauren Bostic]

She's very, very, very interesting. No, no, no. I mean, you're. You said I'm multifaceted. You're really. It's an octopus.

[Michael Bostic]

Like, multifaceted.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

My sign is a pink octopus. We'll talk about that later.

[Michael Bostic]

Lauren knows this. I like multifaceted, strong women with big personalities. Like, there's no, like, I'm not shy about.

[Lauren Bostic]

You're kind of pick that's why I'm like, it's interesting to interview you because I know the kind of girl he likes is like, as a friend and you guys.

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah, but I like, I like.

[Lauren Bostic]

It's funny. I just told you this morning. I was like, God, but some of your friends are so surface level.

[Michael Bostic]

To your point about Lauren, it's like, for me, like, yes, she's beautiful and all of those things, there's an attraction. But I think what people like, what's kept me interested since the beginning in so long is it. Is that. That, like, we can laugh, she can do work, she could be serious, she can be nurture, and then, like, she can also, you know, be self deprecating. So, like, sometimes people see our ban, like, what's going on here, and I think it's the people that want to always. They want to present in a certain way and they want to show, like, it's, you know what it is. The people that get uncomfortable with that, this kind of dynamic. It's the ones that are posting pictures of themselves skipping on the beach with their significant other and hugging under the sunset.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

The image.

[Michael Bostic]

Red flag.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You're doing that. Yeah, the. The image. It's like, all about the image.

[Lauren Bostic]

Everyone's gonna know.

[Michael Bostic]

To your point.

[Lauren Bostic]

Oh,

[Michael Bostic]

listen, life is messy. People are messy. And sometimes the. The people that have it the most together also have a lot of other terrible things going on. And I think we like to have that dynamic.

[Lauren Bostic]

Totally. Is that hack to do a meeting and speed it up is genius.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

No, it's. It's honest. Oh, it's such a good efficiency hack. I didn't even. I never even meant to do it. It's just when I was on mat leave, I couldn't do zooms all day. And, like, I'm so sick of these zooms.

[Michael Bostic]

What I do in my meeting is I make Carson Talk at 3x speed.

[Lauren Bostic]

No, you don't.

[Michael Bostic]

He has to get all his thoughts

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

out in 15 seconds.

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah, he has to get it all out.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly.

[Michael Bostic]

The entire company has to speed time.

[Lauren Bostic]

I will tell you that this interview was worth waiting 10 years for. I also think, and I don't know how you do this, Michael, that this should be like the beginning. We're rebranding to the Bostics. This is like, the conversations that I'm excited about.

[Michael Bostic]

You'll come back on. You're right next to me.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'll be back.

[Lauren Bostic]

You're welcome.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

The only other thing I want to tell y' all that I really think is game Changing.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yes.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Is I don't know if you've done any of this yet, but I've taught myself how to build stuff on AI. So I'm like, which problems are you using? I'm like a vibe coder now.

[Lauren Bostic]

What do you mean you've taught yourself how to build?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

So, like, if I have an idea, and this is cool for you to keep in mind, if I have a concept, I used to have to sit down with my product team, pitch it to them, hope and pray that they understood what I was saying, then get a designer to, like, mock it up, wireframe it. Okay. That would take six weeks, and then we'd have to put it through, like, this, that, this, that, that. Cause, like, all the good ideas went to die. It was like a dungeon of good idea death. And so now I just tell my little digital technical friend, and which platform are you using? I like Claude.

[Michael Bostic]

Okay, you like Claude?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I like Claude. I like Claude Code. I've been playing on Perplexity computer a little bit. Have you tried that?

[Michael Bostic]

I've tried Claude. I've not tried Perplexity yet.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Claude is. Claude's. Claude's my bud. And I basically had Claude. I said, turn into my technical co founder in life and just pretend you're my technical co founder. So your job is to bring my visions to life, but make them smarter, better, pressure test them against these investors and these minds and make like, build like a bench, like a. Like, like go and test it against an advisory board, poke holes in it, bring it back to me in a better way. Let me review it, and then I want you to design it as if. Jony, I've and Steve Jobs got together with the designers of Hermes, and I like, give it the most absurd prompts you've ever heard.

[Michael Bostic]

You gotta get, like I've been telling

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

you, we gotta get you on Claude. Well, I like Chat. GPT. I love Chachi is a little like.

[Michael Bostic]

Like, it's a. It's a little bit like, pat you on the back. Everything you're doing is right. You know, I.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Well, I told it not to do that.

[Michael Bostic]

Yeah, you have to go.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I went into Settings. I was like, be mean to me.

[Lauren Bostic]

Enough about me.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

What do you think about me?

[Lauren Bostic]

It's all up.

[Michael Bostic]

Okay, so I'm gonna go. I'm gonna. Maybe I'll get into Vibe coding.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

You need to be. Okay. You need to start vibe coding and we'll show each other our vibe code ideas. Because if you have, like, a concept. So I've had, like, a few ideas that I really want to build. So I'll build them, I'll make mock ups. And then I started a thread at Bumble last week, which is like bumble build ideas or something. I can't remember what we called it. And I've asked the whole company to do it. So I'm like, if you have an idea, just vibe, code it and maybe we'll build it for real.

[Michael Bostic]

People are very concerned about jobs, obviously. What do you.

[Lauren Bostic]

What's the note when they're upside down, but he's still talking.

[Michael Bostic]

Well, this is the last one. What do you think from what you're seeing from a personnel perspective? Are you thinking AIs? Especially in, I guess, you know, with tech. Are you thinking this is going to replace a lot of people or is it going to.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

It will replace people that don't know how to operate, drive, command and control AI. If you don't know how to be the boss of AI and direct AI and control AI and build and scale agents and mobilize the agents and run it like an agents. If you can't run a team of agents, you probably won't be able to run a team at the best companies in a year from now.

[Lauren Bostic]

That's interesting. So you have to be able to command. That's interesting. Well, I did this and you can go practice that.

[Michael Bostic]

But here's the thing, anyone can do it, you know, Like, I think people are so scared about this. But you know, at one point we were like, technology always changes and always involves. And at one point we were literally plowing fields with horses in our hands and we don't do that anymore.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

And so that's Right.

[Michael Bostic]

Right. Like, I think this idea, like, of course it will 100% displace and replace people that do not evolve with the times. But the whole idea is that you evolve and like, if you're, if you're doing something that AI can do much faster, more efficiently, easier without the cost, like, yeah, you should probably start figuring out like, how to evolve.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Absolutely.

[Michael Bostic]

Shouldn't just sit there and be like, I hope it doesn't happen. It's.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I think it makes you more creative if you know how to, if you know how to lean into it in

[Michael Bostic]

person is going to be even more important in a more digital world where this, where all this, like, people are going to crave. In my opinion, you cannot replace human connection. You cannot as much as even. And this is too much information. They're like Lauren's like, what happens if the sex robot comes? Like, I don't know if I want to be sitting with a sex robot all the time.

[Lauren Bostic]

Are you going to a sex robot?

[Michael Bostic]

Well, do you consider it cheating?

[Lauren Bostic]

Yes. Are you kidding? Do you even have to ask then?

[Michael Bostic]

No.

[Lauren Bostic]

Okay. Oh, my God. If I walk in and you're a sex robot, I'm out.

[Michael Bostic]

Well, listen, but at one point, these robots.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I'm good, but I'm on Bumble.

[Michael Bostic]

Here's what I'm saying. Even if the robot.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm on Bumble.

[Michael Bostic]

Even if the robot is the most attractive robot ever, what's going to happen is at some point, deep down, you're going to sit there and be like, I am hooking up with a robot.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Humans were made for each other.

[Michael Bostic]

Like, you're going to have to look yourself in the mirror.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm really into grounding, so I don't feel like a fake penis would do it for me. I like to ground with the frequency.

[Michael Bostic]

No, but, you know, we had Gary, like, Gary Vee's a friend, and he was on. He's like, people will be get. He thinks that people will marry AI bots, robots in the future.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

I think that the most valuable thing five years from now is human to human connection.

[Lauren Bostic]

Agree.

[Michael Bostic]

I agree.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Which is why I think I'm in the best business. And I think y' all are in really good business, too.

[Lauren Bostic]

I would agree with that. Bumble is partnering with leading happiness expert who has been on the show, author and professor, Author Arthur Brooks.

[Michael Bostic]

We've been on.

[Lauren Bostic]

Yeah, that's what I just said. And so how do everyone sign up for Bumble BFF and Bumble? And where can they find you to say hi?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Find me to say hi?

[Lauren Bostic]

Maybe they want to.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Oh, I'm starting a group on Bumble BFF today, actually.

[Lauren Bostic]

Actually, that's cute.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yes. You should start one, too.

[Lauren Bostic]

Wait, so what do I do?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Okay, so I'll show you how, but I'm gonna start a group where I'm just going to, like, chat with any women that want to join my group and ask me direct questions or kind of get mentored or anything like that. And then I want to learn from them, too. I want to know, like, tell me everything going on. So. But Arthur Brooks is incredible. He understands connection better than anybody out there.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm gonna wanna be desired, guys.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Yeah. And you know what I love about him is he just genuinely wants to help people find happiness. And I believe that the way you find happiness, according to him, is right. Like, you need to have a connection with yourself, with a higher power and with each other. And if you can do that, you're going to have a fulfilling life.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Agreed.

[Lauren Bostic]

How can people sign up for Bumble?

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Everyone that is single, I don't care if you're 18 or 80. You should get on Bumble. We're also rolling out a brand new Bumble, like overhauled meticulous redesign this summer. So stay tuned. So many new features are coming. I am going to make this the dating app that women have been waiting for. I am going to fix women's dating problems again. Again and again and again and again. Like, I'm gonna keep going and then just download bff. You can find girlfriends in your area, groups to go do things. There's like, groups for everything under the sun, from book clubs to makeup to anything you would imagine. And you don't need to be lonely wherever you are, wherever you're listening from. Like, BFF is there for finding your people platonically and Bumble is there to find your love.

[Lauren Bostic]

We need a Whitney book club on Bumble. Bff.

[Whitney Wolfe Herd]

Let's do it. Let's. Let's do a Woo Woo club. You and I will start one.

[Lauren Bostic]

I'm in.