The SkyePod - Alan Hirsch
Episode Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Alan Hirsch
Main Theme:
Re-examining the concept of church in light of history, culture, and a movemental model of ecclesiology — exploring how inherited frameworks constrain the Church’s mission and why a "movement" mindset is necessary now.

Episode Overview

Skye Jethani interviews Alan Hirsch, a leading voice in church renewal and movement, about his latest work with Modus DEI and their statement "Reactivating the Church as Movement." They discuss how historical frameworks (like Constantinian church/state paradigms) shape our assumptions, what "movemental ecclesiology" means, and the tension between healthy multiplication and the dangers of institutional growth. The conversation challenges both church leaders and laypeople to critically reimagine what it means to be the church in today’s world, especially amidst currents like Christian nationalism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining the Church Beyond Tradition

• Alan Hirsch opens with a provocative statement:

  “If you can define the church without Jesus, you could probably run the church without Jesus, too.” (00:00)

• Hirsch emphasizes the need to move past the familiar, institution-based concept of “church” toward a model more dynamic, authentic, and rooted in Jesus’ intentions rather than mere tradition or physical structures.

  “A church ought to be something bigger, more dynamic than that.” (00:53)

2. The Problem of Inherited Frameworks (Christendom, Constantinian Influence)

• Skye Jethani summarizes Hirsch's longstanding message: Getting the church to think beyond inherited structures and embrace its original calling. (01:56)
• Hirsch explains “legacy understanding” of church is anchored in the merger of church and state under Constantine:

  “Constantine is still the emperor of our imaginations. It’s still telling us how to think about ourselves.” (04:08)

• He asserts that most churches are shaped by a European (Christendom) template, which no longer matches the realities of a pluralist, secular society, especially as seen in Europe today:

  “You want to see the future of the European derivative? ...Go and see if you can find Bible churches anywhere.” (06:02)

• Jethani notes the appeal of “making the church Constantinian again,” especially among American Christian nationalists, and Hirsch responds with warnings drawn from global experience (Australia, South Africa), connecting these impulses to problematic histories of power, nationalism, and even apartheid:

  “Apartheid...was a Christian heresy before it was a political theory.” (07:56)

3. Christian Nationalism and Its Dangers

• Discussion explores the distinction between healthy patriotism and problematic nationalism, with Hirsch cautioning against conflating national and religious identities:

  “[Christian nationalism] weds power with political power, ideological power, co-opting the gospel message. And that's hugely dangerous.” (08:45)

• Jethani states the harm is not just societal, but spiritual:

  “It's not just bad for America, it's bad for the church...It's bad for Christianity.” (09:25)

• Memorable Moment:
  Hirsch, with his unique family background, recounts the dual tragedies of Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa, reminding listeners of the catastrophic consequences when church loses discernment between its mission and state ideology:

  “...Trying to figure out Christian nationalism in Germany, which was the birthplace of the Reformation and probably the most Christian country in Europe, yet it produced Nazism...the church had lacked any kind of way of discerning the difference between political ideology and what the church stood for.” (09:34)

4. Rediscovering Movemental Ecclesiology

• The Modus DEI statement calls for “rediscovering the movemental ecclesiology of the early church”; Jethani asks for a definition.
• Hirsch:

  “Movemental, we mean something much more fluid and adaptive and contextual based… so its capacity, you kind of create different expressions in different settings of ecclesia, of a church.” (12:53)

• Key Insights:
  • “Movement” is contrasted with “institution;” the former is adaptive, organic, driven by everyday disciples making disciples, rather than by rigid leadership hierarchies or physical buildings.
  • Using the “seed to tree to forest” metaphor, Hirsch illustrates the organic, potentially explosive growth of the gospel when embodied relationally rather than institutionally:

    “In a seed is a potential for a tree. In a tree is a potential for a forest. But it's all contained in the smallest part.” (14:47)

5. Multiplication vs. Institutional Growth

• Jethani raises concerns about the toxic side effects of “multiplication” rhetoric in evangelical circles, where numerical growth is prioritized at the expense of people.
• Alan Hirsch explains:
  • The problem with church growth theory is that it “assumed the same assumptions of the Christendom understanding”; it was just “a pig with lipstick, but it's still a pig.” (17:41)
  • True multiplication, in contrast, emerges when every disciple is empowered, not through hierarchical megachurch models:

    "Multiplication in the reproduction is built into every living organism...a tree is designed to produce fruit." (19:15)

6. Discipleship, Fruitfulness, & Correcting American Church Models

• Jethani challenges the assumption that fruitfulness always means numerical growth; often, “fruit” in the Bible means character, not size.
• Hirsch responds:
  • Healthy reproduction comes from authentic discipleship, not just belief or cognitive assent:

    “The root cause of the problem is often we're multiplying is non discipleship, which is a non Jesus expression.” (23:31)

• He heavily references Dallas Willard:

  “Much of the legacy thinking of church...is built on non discipleship. It doesn’t intend to make you disciple. It is perfectly designed to produce non discipleship.” (23:29)

7. The Mission of the Church: Discipleship vs. Evangelism

• Hirsch and Jethani discuss the "Great Commission," critiquing the reduction of the church’s mission to mere evangelism.
• Hirsch:

  “I could point me out where evangelism is actually mentioned in the Great Commission...Make disciples, teaching them to obey everything.” (26:03)

  • He critiques a typical American evangelical model that prioritizes belief over obedience and alignment with Jesus.
  • “...when you're trying to introduce the notion of discipleship to someone who's a believer. Oh, that feels like a bait and switch. I didn't sign in on that crap, you know.” (27:10)

Notable Quotes

• Alan Hirsch (00:00):
  “If you can define the church without Jesus, you could probably run the church without Jesus, too.”

• Alan Hirsch (04:08):
  “Constantine is still the emperor of our imaginations. It’s still telling us how to think about ourselves.”

• Alan Hirsch (06:02):
  “You want to see the future of the European derivative? ...Go there and you'll have a good time. But go and see if you can find Bible churches anywhere...that's the future of the church that we operate in if we don't somehow change.”

• Alan Hirsch (08:45):
  "[Christian nationalism] weds power with political power, ideological power, co-opting the gospel message. And that's hugely dangerous."

• Alan Hirsch (14:47):
  “In a seed is a potential for a tree. In a tree is a potential for a forest. But it's all contained in the smallest part, right?”

• Alan Hirsch (23:31):
  “Much of the legacy thinking of church...is built on non discipleship. It doesn’t intend to make you disciple. It is perfectly designed to produce non discipleship.”

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Alan Hirsch’s defining remark about church and Jesus | | 02:27 | Introduction of the Modus DEI statement | | 04:08 | Discussion of Constantinian/Christendom influences | | 06:02 | Prognosis for inherited European church models | | 08:45 | Dangers of Christian nationalism | | 12:53 | Definition of “movemental ecclesiology” | | 14:47 | Seed/tree/forest metaphor for organic church movement | | 17:41 | Critique of church growth theory: “a pig with lipstick…” | | 23:31 | Critique of non-discipleship churches and Willard reference | | 26:03 | Great Commission debate: evangelism vs. discipleship |

Tone and Language

• Conversational, candid, and sometimes playful (e.g., “Sorry, double play on the word ‘sky’”).
• Hirsch is both blunt (“a pig with lipstick, but it’s still a pig”) and reflective.
• The tone is accessible but expects the listener to handle challenging, sometimes uncomfortable, historical and theological analysis.

Summary Conclusion

This episode challenges listeners to interrogate their assumptions about church—rooted in structures, culture, and history—and to recover a "movemental" model focused on authentic discipleship and adaptive mission. Hirsch’s global and historical perspective issues a ringing warning against conflating faith with power, and a call to rediscover the missional dynamism of the early Christian movement. The conversation is an open invitation for thoughtful reimagination, grounded in historic faithfulness but unafraid to disrupt the status quo.