The SkyePod - Drew's News

Summary

The SkyePod - "Drew's News" Episode Summary
Release Date: July 18, 2025
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Drew Dick

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1. Personal Updates and Introductions

[00:00 - 00:56]
Skye Jethani opens the episode by welcoming listeners and introducing Drew Dick, who shares personal updates. Drew mentions having his children at home for the summer, introducing a new puppy, and the ensuing chaos that comes with it.

Drew Dick [00:33]: "I've got a puppy that is really cute. Like my wife Grace said, on a scale of, like, out of 10, he's a 10 out of 10 on cuteness, a 2 out of 10 on behavior."

2. Announcements

[01:00 - 02:26]
Skye discusses the benefits of subscribing to Holy Post Plus, highlighting exclusive content such as full podcast episodes, daily features, and his upcoming book, The World Born in You. He emphasizes the serialized release of the book, audio chapters, live streams, and related devotionals.

Skye Jethani [01:30]: "I'm writing my new book as a serial, releasing one chapter a month exclusively for Holy Post plus subscribers."

Drew acknowledges Skye's promotional segment and briefly mentions his own books, prompting a discussion about Skye's new book title and its inspiration.

3. Tribute to John MacArthur

[03:39 - 11:11]
The conversation shifts to the recent passing of John MacArthur, an influential yet controversial fundamentalist pastor. Skye and Drew delve into MacArthur's impact on American Christianity, his staunch theological positions, and his combative public persona contrasted with his reportedly kind personal demeanor.

• Skye Jethani [04:12]: Introduces John MacArthur as an "86-year-old pastor of a megachurch in California" known for his fundamentalist views.
• Drew Dick [05:14]: Describes MacArthur's "pugilistic style of engagement" and his dismissive stance on charismatic movements.
• Skye Jethani [06:00]: Critiques MacArthur's definitive approach, stating, "There's an answer. It was clear. Here's the verse, here's the text. That's it."

They discuss how MacArthur's unwavering stance provided comfort to some seeking clear-cut answers in a complex world but also led to a lack of nuance in addressing broader issues.

Drew Dick [10:11]: "I've heard that Pastor John was very sweet, soft, and gentle interpersonally."

Skye Jethani [10:36]: Reflects on the duality of public personas versus private interactions, noting similar traits in other public figures.

4. Drew's News Segments

a. "Have Mercy on Me: A Zinner"

[11:26 - 21:49]
Drew introduces his first news story focusing on the rise of nicotine pouches, specifically the brand Zyn, among young men. He explores the shift from traditional smoking to vaping and now to nicotine pouches, discussing their perceived safety, addictive nature, and the social dynamics surrounding their use.

• Drew Dick [11:26]: "A nicotine pouch is popular... not only for our bodies, but also our souls."
• Skye Jethani [13:03]: Shares a personal anecdote about a neighbor using Zyn, highlighting the stealthy nature of the product.

The discussion covers the health risks associated with nicotine addiction, comparing Zyn to other forms of nicotine consumption like vaping and chewing tobacco. They debate whether such products should be considered sinful or merely unwise based on their potential to create dependency and distract from spiritual well-being.

Skye Jethani [17:21]: "I'm hesitant to endorse anything that fuels dependency."

Drew Dick [19:46]: "It doesn't have the same stigma as smoking... alcohol or something like that."

The segment underscores the importance of evaluating behaviors based on their impact on one's relationship with God rather than rigidly categorizing them as sinful.

b. "Lexapro as a Liturgy"

[21:49 - 26:48]
The second news story examines a song by Kenzie McCarter titled "Lexapro as a Liturgy," which blends mental health medication with traditional forms of worship. Skye and Drew analyze the lyrical content and its implications for Christian worship practices.

• Drew Dick [22:45]: "Lexapro is a liturgy. The bread and the wine and a pill for me who knew Jesus."
• Skye Jethani [25:00]: References biblical stories to contrast the focus on God rather than the methods of healing.

They discuss the potential pitfalls of celebrating medical interventions alongside spiritual practices, emphasizing that while tools like medication can aid in healing, the focus should remain on divine intervention rather than the methods themselves.

Skye Jethani [25:57]: "We are a culture that is so addicted to techniques and methodologies."

Drew Dick [26:04]: "It's like, it's not that Jesus used this medication, but Jesus and this pill, man, is a good combo."

The conversation highlights the need to maintain the distinction between acknowledging God's role in healing and the tools used to facilitate that healing.

5. Closing Remarks

[26:48 - End]
While Skye briefly mentions the continuation of the episode for subscribers, this section is considered promotional content and thus is summarized accordingly.

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Key Takeaways

• John MacArthur's Legacy: A complex figure whose dedication to scripture provided clarity for many but also lacked necessary nuance, leading to both admiration and criticism.

• Nicotine Pouches ("Zyn"): Represent a growing trend among youth and Christians alike, raising questions about dependency, social acceptability, and health implications.

• "Lexapro as a Liturgy" Analysis: Raises important discussions on balancing medical interventions with spiritual practices, emphasizing the importance of maintaining focus on divine healing rather than the methods employed.

• Christian Wisdom Over Strict Categorization: Both Skye and Drew advocate for evaluating behaviors based on their benefits and detriments to one's spiritual life rather than rigidly labeling them as sinful or not.

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This episode of The SkyePod offers insightful discussions on contemporary issues affecting Christians, blending personal anecdotes with theological analysis to provide a comprehensive look at the challenges and choices faced by believers today.

Transcript

[Sky Jitani]

Okay, well, then why don't we employ chicken bones and entrails? Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Sky Pod, brought to you by Holy Post Media. I'm Sky Juitani. This week, my friend Drew Dick is back for another edition of Drew's News, where we cover the headlines, all the things that are around the interwebs that you missed over the last couple of weeks. Drew, how are you holding up?

[Drew Dick]

I'm holding up okay, Sky. I've got the kids home for the summer, which is always fun when you work from home. I got a puppy that is really cute. Like my wife Grace said, on a scale of, like, out of 10, he's a 10 out of 10 on cuteness, a 2 out of 10 on behavior. So there's a lot of chaos. Hopefully there's no barking in the background or kids screaming.

[Sky Jitani]

That's. I mean, it seems like, like a challenge. How many distractions can we put into Drew's life this summer to. To prevent you from getting any work done? A cute puppy is a good one, though. Before we jump into the headlines, couple of announcements, quick things. First of all, for those of you who are listening to this through your regular podcasting feed and are like, wait a minute. Why don't I get the whole episode? Because full episodes of the Skypod are exclusively for Holy Post plus subscribers. So if you're not yet a Holy Post plus subscriber, go to holeypost.com, look at the options. You obviously won't just get full episodes of the Skypod. You will get all of the content that we are producing on Holy Post plus, which there's new stuff going up literally every day except the weekends, so you can check out all those different features. And related to that, I am writing my new book as a serial, releasing one chapter a month exclusively for Holy Post plus subscribers. The book is called the World Born in youn. Two chapters are now up. The introduction is available for free for anybody who'd like to check it out. So you can see [e-mail] [e-mail] and. Yeah, so sign up and get that. We are also doing an audio version of each chapter. So every month, you'll get a chapter of the book, an audio version of that chapter, a live stream with me where you can interact with me about the book, sermons and devotionals that I've done related to the themes of that chapter. It's a whole, like, package thing, so I hope you'll go check that out. Drew, anything you want to plug or Log roll. Before we get into the content, any new things that you want, people buy from you?

[Drew Dick]

Well, you can always buy from me. I mean, I've got some books out there if you want to check them out. But what was just coming to mind when you're talking about your new book? I didn't catch that. The title of your new book is an allusion to a Frederick Buechner.

[Sky Jitani]

It's not just an illusion. His quote is at the beginning of my book.

[Drew Dick]

Right. It's. I shouldn't say an illusion. It's a direct quote. Yeah, yeah, of course. And Buechner was the master.

[Sky Jitani]

He was when it comes to writing, so the World Born in youn. The subtitle is Letters to a New Generation of American Christians. And I'm. I've. I'm writing the book as a series of letters to my young adult children, but it's meant to be letters to, you know, everyone who's trying to figure out what does it mean to follow Jesus in this moment in American culture. It's more memoiry than I had originally intended the book to be. I'm. I'm sharing a lot more of my own story. So for those who are like, I find sky to be endlessly fascinating and just want to know more about him, this is your opportunity. Because I tend not to share those things on the air. But that really isn't why you should read the book. It gets into just, how do we.

[Drew Dick]

That is different for you, though. I remember with your preaching, you're like, no, I don't do really personal illustrations or cute stories about my kids or things like that.

[Sky Jitani]

No, I really don't.

[Drew Dick]

I think you're softening in your old age.

[Sky Jitani]

We'll see. We'll see. Okay. Speaking of softening in old age, John MacArthur died.

[Drew Dick]

Yes. I think we need to probably address that, don't we?

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah. Normally, before we set up these Drew's News episodes, you send me a list of articles of things you want to talk about. And you sent that to me, I think, the day before John MacArthur died. So it wasn't in the list of things, but we got to acknowledge. So those of you who don't know who John MacArthur is, who's John MacArthur? He was 86 years old.

[Drew Dick]

Something like that.

[Sky Jitani]

Pastor of a megachurch in California and a prolific church. Yeah. A prolific writer and influential. I would call him a fundamentalist pastor. I don't think the label evangelical quite matches how he operated.

[Drew Dick]

I think that's fair. He's a fundamentalist.

[Sky Jitani]

So, Drew, why is it important that he died. And what, as you think about his impact, why. Why did he have such a huge impact on so many Christians?

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, well, it depends who you ask as, you know, very controversial figure. Yes. Last day or two, you know, all the social media platforms have been filled with people either putting him next to St. Paul or people saying that he was just the worst guy ever. Yeah. Because depending on. He had a very. What's. How would you say, this pugilistic style of engagement, publicly at least. He was no friend to charismatics, certainly.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah. So he was very anti miraculous gifts, very anti speaking in tongues, very anti women in church leaders. Super complementarian in his theology of gender roles. He made a lot of news during COVID because he refused to have his church not gather. So fit a lot of the stereotypes of anti government conservative, obviously anti lgbtq, like all that stuff. But it's one thing to hold those positions. It's another thing to hold them very, as you put it, pugilistically and. And combatively.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. So that, that earned him a lot of criticism, sometimes fairly, I'd say. Yeah. He basically wrote off the entire Pentecostal charismatic wing of the church. And he had a strange fire conference and book and. But okay, so what I will say, though, for the people who love him and trying, you know, and being, you know, benevolent in the assessment, he did have a passion for God's word. Right. He was, he was committed to exegetical preaching, which is, you know, where you kind of go, or expository preaching, where you're going line by line through Scripture. He wrote an entire commentary on the New Testament, which is like a multi volume commentary, and that has been incredibly influential among a whole generation of church leaders and students of the Bible. So he is, you know, when you talk to his fans, it's his passion for scripture, his. His commitment to study. Even said at one point that he actually didn't like preaching. He just, he. Preaching was like a byproduct of what he really loved, and that is studying scripture.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah. So I have no fan of John MacArthur and certainly not a student of his. But his ministry and the popularity of his ministry struck me as very appealing to people who want definitive answers. Like, he did not play with ambiguities and mysteries. And there was an answer. It was clear. Here's the verse, here's the text. That's it. And that's a very appealing. As our culture becomes increasingly complicated and messy, it's very attractive for some people to go, this is my guy. He has the answers. He will tell me what's right and wrong. He will tell me what the Bible says about anything and everything under the sun. And that lack of ambiguity is very, very, very marketable in this setting. And I think that's part of his success. Now, the flip side of that, in my interpretation, is I would say, I think he regularly lost the forest for the trees. Like, he would so focus on a minutiae of Scripture or an absolute definitive answer to something that he couldn't see, the bigger picture. So, for example, he had an interpretive way of thinking about the roles of men and women that he claimed he drew from Scripture. And it was very definitive about what their roles are. And he applied that sometimes so consistently that he couldn't see the bigger picture of stories of women who were in very abusive relationships with abusive men and therefore acted in ways that were uncompassionate and actually perpetrated more abuse on these women. So that kind of stuff where it's like, you got to step back and see the bigger picture. And there is a wisdom that comes from perspective, not just from answers. And so we don't have to parse all of the controversies. People can look that up and the way his church and his ministry handled various things. But I get the appeal. I hope people understand the dangers of that appeal. But fundamentalism is on the rise, and not just Christian fundamentalism, all different kinds of fundamentalism. And I think John MacArthur epitomized that for our generation and earlier ones as well. Wasn't he the guy behind the. What was a curriculum called about the parenting curriculum? He had growing kids God's way. Was that his thing?

[Drew Dick]

I do know that he wrote about parenting. I mean, he wasn't like, you know, James Dobson. Yeah, but that regard. But he did. Yeah. I mean, he. He wrote on just about every topic.

[Sky Jitani]

Right. That's what I mean is he had a definitive, definitive answer, a formula for everything.

[Drew Dick]

He was doing it down in Southern California, right next to Hollywood. Right. So I think there was. I don't know, people saw him as their, Their. Their culture warrior, their guy. But you're right, not Mr. Nuance. Here's an interesting thing, though, and I don't. I never met John MacArthur, but I have talked to many people who knew him well and personally. And okay, so he's got the very pugilistic, kind of tough guy, public Persona, but they said interpersonally he was very sweet, soft and gentle and kind. I've heard that about Pastor John.

[Sky Jitani]

I've heard that about a lot of people who have a Combative public Persona. I heard that about Jerry Falwell Sr. Heard that about Donald Trump from some people. Yeah, right. So it is interesting that some of these people, one on one, can be warm, charming, gracious, friendly, and put them on camera in front of a microphone, in a pulpit, whatever, and they can get. I don't know if it's an act. I don't know if it's their true self coming out. I don't know. But it's.

[Drew Dick]

What's the true Persona? Right. Who knows? And interestingly, this is prayer Inside baseball Too much. But like, when it comes to the ministry world and church, like prominent church leaders, I've heard the opposite being true too. People who have a very, like, the sweetest, everyone loves them kind of guy publicly behind the scenes are total jerks. So it's, it's really interesting.

[Sky Jitani]

Well, you, you've worked with me at Christianity Today. You've, you've seen me behind the scenes and, you know, you're a jerk in.

[Drew Dick]

Front of the camera and behind total monster. So I love that consistency.

[Sky Jitani]

Total monster on all sides of the scre. All right, let's get into your stories. What, what you bring us for Drew's News this month.

[Drew Dick]

First one, and I got to admit, I, I picked this one half just for the pun. The title of it is have Mercy on Me. A Zinner. Z Y N N E R. Yeah, it's brilliant title.

[Sky Jitani]

Great title.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, they. They had to. I. I love it. So I'll read the subtitle. This nicotine pouch is popular. Like me, this author writes that's a problem not only for our bodies, but also our souls. So, Zyn, maybe you're a user. Sky, maybe I don't have to explain this. A brand of smokeless, spit free nicotine pouches has become very, very popular, especially with young men. So, you know, a trend that, you know, another trend is that cigarette smoking's way down, which is good. All those horrific ads they showed us when we were kids, I guess they worked, but then vaping took off. Right.

[Sky Jitani]

So two of my kids were in high school when vaping was like really the rage. And. Yeah, and it was, it was. Yes.

[Drew Dick]

And they were saying it's like, harmless, but then it turns out actually not so much.

[Sky Jitani]

Well, hold on.

[Drew Dick]

E. Cigarettes.

[Sky Jitani]

The other weird thing about vaping, though, and I don't know if this is true of Zinn, but with vaping, if you had a vape pen and I, you know, I would see kids at football games or whatever doing this stuff or you Know, opening their jacket and taking a hit from their vape pen or whatever. With a vape pen, you put different cartridges in it. And you don't know, it could be, you know, I don't know, bubblegum flavored nicotine vape or it could be a marijuana vape. You. Because it all looks, you can't tell the difference. So it became this delivery device for all kinds of stuff. And, and it was.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, hey, that and the child friendly flavors too.

[Sky Jitani]

Yes.

[Drew Dick]

When it's really a nicotine delivery system. Right, right. So. But apparently that' e cigarettes are even down a little bit. And this is the new rage Zyn. I think Zinn is like a name brand, but these like. And I was so confused. I was like, what is. I have a 30 year old neighbor who I always talk to in the cul de sac and all of a sudden, like one day we're just talking, he just slipped something into his lip and I was like, what was that? I'm like, is that gum? Can I have a piece?

[Sky Jitani]

You know.

[Drew Dick]

No, it's, it's Zinn. And he's trying to explain it to me. I'm like, oh, like it's like chewing tobacco and it's like, no, not exactly because it's in a little pouch. It's not like loose.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

And apparently it's, it's a lot safer because it's like, doesn't have all the tobacco stuff. It's just.

[Sky Jitani]

Right.

[Drew Dick]

Pure nicotine, essentially.

[Sky Jitani]

So what it reminds me of is like Nicorette gum, which was marketed as a, as a gum that can help you overcome your cigarette addiction because you still get the nicotine, but without the. So this is a Nicorette nicotine patch that you put in your lip and it's still.

[Drew Dick]

Essentially.

[Sky Jitani]

But it doesn't have all the gross factor of chew.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, that's right. And it, I mean, in your lip, you know, it's, that's like a good place where it can absorb right into your bloodstream. And so. Yeah, and it's this big thing among young men. And it's an interesting article because this guy, he's a pastor and his, his take is like he got addicted to it in high school and I think even beyond that and then came to the, the, the decision that he had to quit basically because of what it was doing to his body and soul. Yeah, it's complicated because it's not like it's probably not going to kill you. Right. It's not like cigarettes.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah, there's. I was looking up some Research on are there medical health risks with this product? And essentially they're saying, well, there's the risk of just nicotine addiction and there's some correlation in nicotine addiction and heart and cardiovascular disease, but it's not super strong and, and it's too soon. Like this is a fairly new product. We don't know what the impact could be. The gross thing about like chewing tobacco is the risk of all kinds of mouth and throat cancers. Oh yeah, like leukoplakia and things like, I mean it's just, and oh, it's horrible. I mean, lung cancer is bad enough or other kinds of cancers and heart disease you can get from smoking. But like chewing tobacco, when you have to have your jaw removed, like that's.

[Drew Dick]

Not, you'll probably live, but you'll be horrifically disfigured.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah, it's not a great quality of life at that point. But there's no evidence that that's true of this. But we don't know yet. It's probably not going to be as toxic. But he talks about in the article just the dependency on that nicotine for energy and to get more work done. But he describes it as a distraction and a numbing from your kind of emotional core, which a lot of men do. This and not just obviously with nicotine in other ways. Alcohol, social media, doom scrolling pornography. You go on down the list of addictive behaviors that numb you emotionally. And that it's interesting that he, I, I, I knew this was a trend. I didn't know it was as prevalent as he made it sound.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. And people really rave about the, the, what should I say, the psychological benefits of Zen. Like it helps you focus, it makes you feel more confident, it calms you down. Of course, once you're addicted to nicotine, then you get calmed down when you have it because you need it.

[Sky Jitani]

Right.

[Drew Dick]

But I think, yeah, I admire his wisdom because, you know, he's realizing something that a lot of Christians maybe don't. And that is not every behavior, even if it isn't explicitly sinful, is maybe good for you.

[Sky Jitani]

Right.

[Drew Dick]

There's certain habits and patterns that maybe dull your spiritual senses or distract you from the good, true and beautiful. And you kind of have to go or make you less dependent on God. And it sounds like he was having that effect in his life. And so he was like, you know what? This is something maybe I need to cut out now. But it's interesting, it raised a lot of interesting questions too about like, is this a sin? I don't know. I Mean, if it's like destroying your temple, then that's bad and you should. But if it really is safe, and like you said, the jury's still out, but if it turns out to be safe, what is wrong with it other than.

[Sky Jitani]

Well, it's a good question. I do, I'm hesitant to endorse anything that fuels dependency.

[Drew Dick]

Sure.

[Sky Jitani]

Right. And, and that's a very wide range of things. Like I mentioned, even social media can. And doom. Scrolling on your phone can be an addictive kind of behavior that you, you revert to when you want to distract yourself from your feelings or your anxieties, your stresses, whatever they are. So it's not just that. It's. It's limited to chemical addiction. Although even that could be a chemical addiction because there's a dopamine hit to your brain when you scroll and, you know, waste hours on Instagram or whatever. So I think anything that causes dependency is probably. It's problematic. I do think it's unhelpful for Christians to simply have categories of sinful or not sinful.

[Drew Dick]

Sure.

[Sky Jitani]

I think another, another spectrum to look at is helpful or unhelpful, wise or unwise. Does it deepen my self awareness and communion with God or distract me from it? All those things are different. Rather than just sinful, not sinful. It's too narrow category. Although this, this product seems perfectly designed for Christians. Yeah, right. Because it's so invisible.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, that's true. And it doesn't have the same stigma as smoking. Exactly. Alcohol or something like that.

[Sky Jitani]

Because, I mean, even Nicorette gum, it's like, well, people see you chewing gum, this little patch under your lip, no one can tell it's there.

[Drew Dick]

Right.

[Sky Jitani]

So, you know, forget it's so small.

[Drew Dick]

It's not like your lips sticking out.

[Sky Jitani]

Like, I'm sure you're familiar with the old joke that if, if you don't want a Baptist to drink all of your beer, make sure to invite two of them.

[Drew Dick]

Yes, right. If you want to lose all your beer, invite one Baptist.

[Sky Jitani]

Right.

[Drew Dick]

You want to keep it, invite two.

[Sky Jitani]

And there's lots of permutations on that joke in different settings. But like, it speaks to the fact that for so many Christians, it isn't the activity itself that they find sinful. It's. It's the social stigma of the activity within their community. And this Zen stuff is perfectly designed to avoid social stigma because it's invisible and odorless, smokeless, all those things. There's no vape pen. There's none of that. There's no paraphernalia. It's just there. And that's pretty brilliant on their part to market. And this is why teenagers are so into it, because they can use it.

[Drew Dick]

Children can't see it.

[Sky Jitani]

Exactly.

[Drew Dick]

Parent can't see it. Yeah, totally. It is funny, too, that to me, that it made me think of, like, certain subcultures of evangelical Christianity where one drop of alcohol or a cigarette is, like, the worst thing in the world, and yet we will shove copious amounts of fried foods and sugar down our throat.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

It is funny how selective we can be in what? What? And actually they're all chemicals. What chemical habits we think are terrible and which ones are perfectly fine.

[Sky Jitani]

Right. It's just proof that these taboo are socially constructed.

[Drew Dick]

Right.

[Sky Jitani]

Which again, is why rather than creating laws, external laws that you dictate in your community, you can do this, you can't do that. We need to instruct people in wisdom. What's helpful, what's not helpful, what's addictive, what's not addictive, what's deepening my communion with God? What's getting in the way? I mean, for some people, it's. I mean, I don't know, ESPN can be a distraction. Like, I'm spending too much time watching sports, and it's a distraction from my relationships, from my communion with God. Whatever. Okay, well, then get rid of that thing. It's not sinful. It's just not helpful. And that changes based on circumstances and personality.

[Drew Dick]

And dude, during the pandemic, man, I got addicted to Zillow, okay? You know, the real estate thing.

[Sky Jitani]

But you're looking for a new house.

[Drew Dick]

I was coveting other people's houses. Yeah. And also I was like, man, my house sucks. Like, that's a great example. I don't have a. Yeah, games room. Like, how am I even living?

[Sky Jitani]

That is a very good example of something that obviously is not explicitly sinful. But you know how it's affecting you. It's making you discontent.

[Drew Dick]

Well, I didn't know, but Grace busted down. She's like, what are you doing? You're spending hours on this. We're never going to have a house like that. And I was like, well, not with that attitude we're not.

[Sky Jitani]

See, but if you had been dropping Zinn on your lip, then you could have numbed yourself to those feelings of inadequacy and discontent and continued with your exploring. On Zillow.

[Drew Dick]

On Zillow. Oh, man, it feels good to get that off my chest, by the way, just to.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah, well, have mercy on you.

[Drew Dick]

Have mercy on me. Zillower. A Zinner. A Zillower. Zinner's better. Next story. I think we solved that one, but we're gonna stick with the chemical theme. Okay, this next one is not about a news story or an article. It's about a song. There's A woman, Kenzie McCarter, new name to me. Good singer, though. She has a song called Lexapro as a liturgy. And I'm not going to sing it for you, Scott, but I am going to quote the lyrics. Okay. Lexapro is a liturgy. The bread and the wine and a pill for me who knew Jesus. And 15 milligrams would bring me back to life again? Okay. First thing I got to say, though, it's. Look it up. It's pretty catchy.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

I've been humming it all week. It's. It.

[Sky Jitani]

If you didn't pay attention to the lyrics, it does sound like a contemporary worship song.

[Drew Dick]

100 CCM worship music. Like, totally. She nails it.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

And.

[Sky Jitani]

Okay, I didn't look deeply into this. Did she write this song to be sung in church, or is. Is it. Is it. Is it a parody? Is it supposed to be satire?

[Drew Dick]

No, but the fact that you're asking that question is giving me a preview of your opinion of it.

[Sky Jitani]

But.

[Drew Dick]

So, I mean, okay, first of all, I do want to be nice. I mean, obviously, she is talking about her mental health journey. I think that's great that she's gotten the help, the medication that she needs. I. As someone who struggles with anxiety and depression, I was on ssri, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor for years. So bravo for getting the help. But it's the combining of talking about an antidepressant and liturgy, you know, the ancient form of the church's worship. I don't know if you can do that.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah. Again, I have no idea what her story is or even her motivation for writing the song. And I don't even want to critique the song, but I think it illustrates something important. I echo. I echo your. Your view, Drew. Like, I am pro science. I am pro medicine. I. I have no expertise on when these medical interventions for depression, anxiety should be used or not used. That's up to a doctor psychiatrist, like you guys figure that out. But I don't think it's wrong. I wouldn't say it's always sinful. I'm not here to say everyone should be on it either. But here's what I think it illustrates, which is a. I think a feature, not a bug, of American Christianity and that is, we often confuse the healer and the method of the healing. Right. We are. We are a culture that is so addicted to techniques and methodologies. So, like I, in my new book, which I mentioned earlier, one of the threads through the book is the story of Naaman from the Old Testament. And if you remember Naaman, he had leprosy and he's a foreigner, and he comes to Israel and he encounters Elisha, and Elisha tells him to go bathe in the Jordan river and you'll be healed. And, like, the God of Israel heals Naaman, and the story is about how Naaman then devotes himself to the God of Israel, and he celebrates and praises and worships the God of Israel. Henceforth, he doesn't worship or praise the waters of the Jordan River. Right. The waters of the Jordan were the method by which God healed him, but the healing he understood came from God. Or think of the story in the Gospels of the guy who was blind and Jesus made mud with some spit in the dirt and put it on his eyes. Like, the guy. Thanks. And celebrates Jesus. He doesn't celebrate the mud. And so if her story or your story or my story or someone's story is, I'm struggling with X and a medical intervention was used to help me, I can praise God for that without giving the praise to the method of the intervention. Does that make sense?

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, totally.

[Sky Jitani]

So I feel like what the song does is it's celebrating the method of the healing, not the healer.

[Drew Dick]

Well, yeah. And Jesus is getting thrown in as one of the tools, Right?

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

Jesus and a pill or. Yeah. What are the lyrics exactly? Anyway, who knew?

[Sky Jitani]

Who knew Jesus? And 15 milligrams would bring me back to life again?

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. So it's like. It's almost like one of those, you know, drug commercials where it's like, is this pill not working for you anymore? There's another one that has, like, a doubling effect. So, yeah, that's kind of what got me, like. Oh, I don't know. Like, I'm. I'm for both of these. Hey, get the help you need. Of course. Jesus is awesome.

[Sky Jitani]

Right?

[Drew Dick]

But, yeah, I think you put your finger on it, too. That. That kind of utilitarian thing where it's like, it's not that Jesus used this medication, but Jesus and this pill, man, is a good combo.

[Sky Jitani]

Yeah. I think that it's a very pagan instinct in a lot of American Christianity to focus on the technique, the methodology. Don't worry, this is not the end of the episode. There's actually plenty more but to listen to the rest, you need to be a Holy Post plus subscriber. So head over to HolyPost.com SkyPod and sign up. For just $5 a month, not only will you get uninterrupted episodes of the Sky Pod, which means you'll never have to hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll also get access to everything else at Holy Post plus, including episodes of Getting Schooled by Caitlin, Chess bonus interviews, live streams, the Holy Post Book Club, exclusive merchandise, and a whole bunch more. And you'll get the warm, fuzzy feeling of knowing that you're supporting our work of creating smart, pro neighbor Christian content. So head over to holypost.com skypod and subscribe today.