The SkyePod - Drew's News

Summary

The SkyePod - Drew's News: A Comprehensive Summary

Released on March 14, 2025, "The SkyePod - Drew's News" features host Skye Jethani and special guest Drew Dick engaging in thoughtful discussions on contemporary evangelical movements and the impact of worship music in churches. This summary captures the key points, insights, and conclusions drawn during the episode.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with Skye Jethani welcoming Drew Dick back to "The SkyePod," noting Drew's usual role in bringing curated news and stories from the internet that merit deeper exploration.

2. Drew's Lent Challenge and Personal Update

Drew opens the conversation with a personal update about his experience giving up sugar for Lent, which has left him feeling "a little grumpy" and "angry" (00:24). He humorously attributes his irritability to low blood sugar, warning listeners about possible "weird outbursts" during the episode (00:53).

3. Main Topic 1: Legacy of Promise Keepers

A. Overview of Promise Keepers and Bill McCartney

Drew introduces the lead story by announcing the passing of Bill McCartney, the founder of Promise Keepers (01:36). He reflects on McCartney's transition from a successful football coach to leading a prominent men's movement that significantly influenced American evangelicalism in the 1990s.

B. Impact and Criticisms

Skye questions the relevance of Promise Keepers to younger generations, highlighting its peak in the late '90s with large rallies drawing up to a million men (02:36). Drew shares his personal experience attending a Promise Keepers event in Edmonton, Alberta, during his high school years, describing it as "a good experience" focused on worship, leadership at home, and cultural change (03:19).

The conversation delves into criticisms of the movement, particularly its nature as a parachurch organization. Drew points out the lack of sustained discipleship following large-scale events, likening it to the ephemeral hype seen in events like Billy Graham's crusades (04:00).

C. Theological Discussion: Using Jesus as a Means vs. Jesus as the End

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the theological implications of movements like Promise Keepers. Skye criticizes the tendency to use Jesus as a tool to achieve other goals, such as improving marriages or societal structures, rather than prioritizing allegiance to Jesus Himself (09:29).

Drew concurs, emphasizing the importance of prioritizing a relationship with Christ over utilitarian benefits. He warns against the "bait and switch" tactic where initial pragmatic reasons for joining a movement evolve into deeper spiritual commitments without adequate preparation (10:43).

The hosts reference John 6, where Jesus challenges followers to commit genuinely rather than seeking personal gains from their faith, contrasting it with the often pragmatic approach seen in modern evangelical movements (12:07).

4. Main Topic 2: Evaluating Church Worship Songs

A. Overview of the Gospel Coalition Article

Drew brings up an article from The Gospel Coalition titled "Do Your Sunday Songs Pass the Test?" by Brandon Ryan, which proposes four criteria for evaluating worship songs: Biblical Accuracy, Singability, Meeting a Need, and Trusting the Source (18:24).

B. Importance of Worship Music in Theology Formation

Skye emphasizes the profound impact of worship music on congregational theology, noting that songs often shape the listeners' understanding of God more than sermons do. She shares her experience as a church pastor, realizing that despite extensive sermon preparation, the music sung by the congregation was a more significant theological influence (19:45).

C. Challenges in Worship Song Selection

The discussion highlights the dilemma church leaders face between selecting songs that are theologically sound and those that are popular or enjoyable. Skye points out that while some songs are "beautiful, brilliant, biblical, deep, [and] rich," others can be "horrible" or "sentimental," potentially leading to theological misformation (21:00).

Drew adds that balancing multiple generations within a church complicates song selection further, as pleasing everyone is nearly impossible. He argues for maintaining theological integrity over mere entertainment, advocating for songs that meet the established criteria regardless of the songwriter's personal failings (22:28).

5. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a brief mention of additional content available to subscribers, encouraging listeners to support the creation of "smart, pro-neighbor Christian content" through Holy Post Plus. However, this segment is bypassed in the summary as per guidelines to omit advertisements and non-content sections.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Drew Dick (00:28): "I gave up sugar for Lent... I've been snapping at my kids and I've been cussing."

• Skye Jethani (04:25): "The intelligence of a crowd is inversely proportional to its size."

• Drew Dick (10:45): "That is not insurance."

• Skye Jethani (11:29): "Jesus is how, emphasis on how I get to heaven... we need to pause and go, maybe we've missed the boat entirely here."

• Skye Jethani (19:46): "What's really shaping the theology of the people in my church were the songs they were singing."

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This summary encapsulates the depth and breadth of the discussions between Skye Jethani and Drew Dick, providing insights into the legacy of evangelical movements and the pivotal role of worship music in shaping theological understanding.

Transcript

[Drew Dick]

Foreign.

[Sky Jutani]

Welcome back to the Skypod. I'm Sky Jutani. This show, of course, is brought to you by Holy Post Media. And joining me, very special guest, Drew Dick. Hi, Drew.

[Drew Dick]

Thank you, Sky. Good to be back. I gotta warn you, though, I'm a little grumpy today.

[Sky Jutani]

Grumpy?

[Drew Dick]

Angry.

[Sky Jutani]

Oh.

[Drew Dick]

So I. I gave up sugar for Lent.

[Sky Jutani]

Why would you do that?

[Drew Dick]

Right. And I didn't know. I wish someone would have told me, but sugar apparently is what creates happiness, and temporarily. Temporarily? Yeah. But it's been, what, five, six days? I don't know. And I've been snapping at my kids and I've been cussing, so.

[Sky Jutani]

We're getting low blood sugar, Drew, on this episode.

[Drew Dick]

Yes, that's right. So if there are any weird outbursts, you know what's going on.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay. Well, for those who are uninitiated, we have you on regularly for episodes we call Drew's News, where you bring us selections from around the Internet of stories that you think are worth talking about, typically stuff we've not covered on previous SkyPods or on the Holy Post flagship show or anywhere else. And I'm. It's been a little while. I think it's longer stretch than normal since you've been here, so I'm hoping you bringing some really hard hitting, deep, theologically robust news.

[Drew Dick]

The bar.

[Sky Jutani]

I did. What are you giving us to kick off here, Drew? What's the. All right, the lead story on Drew's News.

[Drew Dick]

Oh, the lead story is a little bit of sad news, Sky. The founder of promise keepers, Bill McCartney, has died. This is a few months ago, I think. And yes, pretty successful dude, was a very successful football coach who in midlife, founded the very popular men's movement called Promise Keepers. And I thought, you know, here he's. It's not that sad. He was an older guy, like, you know, in his mid-80s, I believe. But I thought it'd be a good opportunity to reflect on his life a little bit and on the legacy of your favorite organization, Promise Keepers.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, this is a segment. I mean, I, I happy to talk about this, but this is a segment that. Does anybody under 40 have any idea what Promise Keepers is? Or maybe even 50 at this point? Right. I mean, we, We're. We're the age where we remember this is. It was huge in the 90s, right? That's when it kind of took off.

[Drew Dick]

And had all these rallies right in the. In the kind of. The high water mark for promise keepers was 97, I believe. That's when they had like a million Men gather.

[Sky Jutani]

I was a college student.

[Drew Dick]

Yes. Yeah. And so we remember this. This is kind of like during our formative era that. That it started. And so it had a huge impact on American evangelicalism, on a lot of men. Yeah. And so I'm. I'm curious to hear your take, like, oh, gosh. On the legacy of the movement.

[Sky Jutani]

First of all, did you ever go to a Promise Keepers event?

[Drew Dick]

I did. Even though I was in Canada. Of course, at the time, I went to one in Edmonton, Alberta. It would have been. Man, I was in high school. This would have been mid. Mid-90s, maybe.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay. What was your. I never attended one, so I don't have. Yeah, I don't have firsthand experience. I'm curious if yours, you know, fits what I've heard.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, I mean, it was. It was a good experience. It was like, you know, you get a ton of men jamming into an auditorium, worshiping Jesus and some really killer motivational mess. And, you know, it's interesting because it wasn't all just focused on Christian faith. Right. It was about being a leader at home. It was about changing the culture. There was a lot more to it than just encouraging men to come to Jesus. Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

See, I was probably invited numerous times as a high school and college student and never went. Partly because I just. Really large crowds are not my thing. Like, I. I think. I think they're vectors for, like, social pathogens. Like. Like the way people used to stay away from large crowds during COVID I tend to stay away from large crowds not because I'm worried about some virus, but because I'm worried about social contagion.

[Drew Dick]

Like, you were ahead of your time.

[Sky Jutani]

Well, I just, like. I think the intelligence of a crowd is inversely proportional to its size, meaning the bigger the crowd, the dumber it is.

[Drew Dick]

That's.

[Sky Jutani]

And true. And you get caught up in group think and swept up in the really bad idea. So when I think of, like, a stadium full of 50 or 100,000 men, I'm just going, this. This can't be good. This can't. I mean, I'm sure for some people, it is. For me, I'm just like, I. It's completely the opposite of what I want to be a part of. So I just never. Never went to anything like that, so.

[Drew Dick]

Well, and that's one valid criticism of the movement. I remember, even at the time, it's a parachurch organization. Right. And so, like, a lot of parachurch things, like even Billy Graham's crusades and stuff, sweeps through town. People get hyped up. They go to a weekend or one event and they get all riled up, which can be good, I guess, but then, okay, what does this lead to? Where's the discipleship? Where's the follow up? You know, so that is certainly one critique.

[Sky Jutani]

And I know, like, when I think back to Promise Keepers, again as an outsider and probably not exactly their target demographic because I was a little young for it at the time, I know their intentions were good. And even on the discipleship question, they created a ton of resources. They were trying to make stuff to, to help people carry out whatever the commitments were. They made the promises they were going to keep because of the rally. And so they were. They were creating curriculum and small group studies and on books and all that kind of stuff for, for churches and stuff. So I know they were trying. I think their intentions were good. I don't want to.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

Second guess that, but for me, it sort of epitomizes baby boomer evangelicalism. My image of a group of Promise Keeper guys is a, is a bunch of middle aged dads with polo shirts tucked into khakis and a belt with gym shoes on. You know, go going to this huge rally where they get to see celebrity Christian, celebrity athletes and have an emotional experience and come home saying that they now have a friend who's black. Like that. That's kind of the. And there's fine, there's good in that. But it's so baby boomer because it mimics splashy, successful, pro sports, rock concert, mega church kind of ministry models, which for me, that's all baby boomer stuff. Not that it's exclusively baby boomer, but that was epitomized by baby boomers.

[Drew Dick]

And of course he founded it like, I think he was like 50 or something when he founded it because he'd already had a successful football career and he was a boomer, of course. And you're right, I think this was like, I mean, I guess the benevolent way to look at it is it was a contextualization for its time to reach boomer men. Because you're right, because even when I went, I went with a buddy who's like, hey, you want to go on this trip with my uncle? He wants me to go. And I was a high school kid, so I really was like a kid there. The average age probably would have been like 40. And that's like the heart of the boomers at the time. Right. You know, my bigger thing with this is like, when, whenever there's a movement like this, it could be good you know, encouraging men to be better husbands and fathers and more committed to Jesus, that's all good. But I always feel like when there's a shadow agenda to a movement, whether it's like making the country more Christian or getting a better family, all good things. Right. Or being a better father, that those are all good things. But often just kind of subtly what happens is that like the whole Jesus thing becomes a means to an end rather than the end being Jesus himself. Right. And it's not, I don't think they would ever state that, but often when like Jesus is the vehicle for this better life, then yeah, it kind of distorts the mission a little bit and can have some unintended negative effects.

[Sky Jutani]

I mean, what, you're preaching to the choir here because this is the theme that runs through almost everything I've written, whether divine commodity about consumerism or with or whatever. It's always this instinct to try to use Jesus to achieve something else.

[Drew Dick]

Yes.

[Sky Jutani]

And, and obviously I want men to be faithful husbands and fathers and you know, bring flourishing to their communities and goodness to the work that they do and reconciliation of the relationships, all that's wonderful, good stuff. But when you, when that's the goal and you say, well, Jesus is how to achieve it, what you're really saying is, Jesus, will you please bow your knee to the idol? That I think is most important. And there's a very, there's a significant difference between that and saying, no, we're all about allegiance to, and commitment to Jesus. And what flows out of that are these byproducts, which is a transformed character that is going to make you a better husband and father, a transformed sense of your calling and vocation in the world which is going to make you seek flourishing in the well being of those around you, a transformed vision of your role as a citizen in this culture and how, you know, you think about poverty and justice and all these, like all that comes out. But it's not the goal, it's the byproduct.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

And I think the pragmatism of baby boomer ministry was it was trying to use Jesus to achieve really valuable and admirable ends. But I don't think it recognized how subtle that shift was from adoring Jesus to using Jesus. And that never really ends well.

[Drew Dick]

No, exactly. No, that's well said. Getting the cart before the horse. And you're right, I mean, because you don't also want to say, well, if you have, if you grow closer to Christ, if you have union with Christ, it's not going to make a difference in your life. And of course it is. It's going to be the outgrowth. But it's very important which one you put first and which one you prioritize.

[Sky Jutani]

So let's, let's really drill down here. And I would argue that the most popular way that we tend to preach the gospel is guilty of this. Because what we usually say to people is, do you want to go to hell when you die or do you want to spend eternity in heaven? I want to go to heaven. Okay, well then trust Jesus and you get, and whatever know, detailed formulation of that you, you communicate. When you strip away all the fancy rhetoric and preaching and whatever, what you're really saying is your goal is heaven. It's not Jesus. You're using Jesus to get to heaven.

[Drew Dick]

And that is not insurance.

[Sky Jutani]

Exactly. That is not the gospel that he preached, and it's not the gospel that the apostles preached. And so it, it makes sense to me. If you've, you know, in 20th century American Christianity, if you were schooled in this vision of Jesus is how, emphasis on how I get to heaven, then you go, well, okay, heaven's great, but what do I need now? I need a better marriage. I need to raise my kids faithfully. I need a government that, you know, champions the values I think are Christian, whatever. And I'm going to make Jesus the how for those things too, because you've already made him the how for heaven. And so you've started down that track and you keep going down that track and you never pause and go, maybe we've missed the boat entirely here. And he's not the how. He is the way, but he's also the truth and the life. Like, it's not just the how.

[Drew Dick]

And that's not how he preached. He said, come to me, all who are thirsty. And you know, it wasn't just, hey, if you want to get into heaven, you, you know, you can take advantage of this. And then also if you do that, if that is your M.O. when it comes to evangelism, sharing the gospel, then there's a bait and switch at some point. Because at some point you got to go, hey, if you want a good marriage, you want to be successful, if you want to be a good assistant, whatever it is, then you need to accept Jesus. Then they do. And then you say, oh, by the way, there are these pesky passages in the Bible about dying to yourself about taking up your cross. And now you have to do that. And that's a tough sell. Once they've come for a very practical, utilitarian reason.

[Sky Jutani]

This is. This is precisely what happens in John chapter 6. Multitudes are following Jesus because he's doing all these incredible miracles, all these wonders, and they're amazed by it. And he. In John 6, he turns them and goes, okay, show's over. I'm done. No more miracles. And they're like, what are you talking about? And then he starts preaching about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and.

[Drew Dick]

Do you actually want.

[Sky Jutani]

He gets weird. But his message is essentially saying, do you actually want me? Or are you just here for what you think you can get from me? And by the end of the chapter, everyone leaves except for the 12. So he seems to be intentionally thinning the herd there. And that's what. That's what a lot of American Christianity is entirely reluctant to do, is we want to draw a big crowd with all these promises of what you can get from Jesus. And the most extreme version of that is prosperity gospel stuff. But there's more subtle versions as well. And we don't ever challenge people like he does in John 6, to go, no, no, no. Do you actually want him? And that's okay. Before we leave this topic, though, of Promise Keepers, I'm curious about two things to get your view on it. One is in the article that you sent me about Bill McCartney and his legacy and story and Promise Keepers, they cite the fact that Promise Keepers made, quote, unquote, racial reconciliation a pretty central part of their ministry, and they attribute that to its eventual, eventual decline. McCartney's insistence on not backing down from that plank eventually turned away a lot of the white people that were populating and funding Promise Keepers, and that led to its. Do you think that's accurate? Again, I was an outsider. I wasn't part of it. And there have been others who've been very critical of this racial reconciliation focus focus. Because it seemed like window dressing, more than, you know, a deeply sort of systemic approach to the problem of racial divisions in America. So they've been criticized on both sides for being too focused on race and not systemic enough in its focus on race. But what's your take on it? Do you think that his focus on interracial connection was part of Promise Keepers downfall?

[Drew Dick]

I don't know. You know, and I wasn't following it closely enough, certainly at the time. I would imagine that any attempts at racial reconciliation, having that conversation in the 90s would sound pretty weird and maybe silly to us now. Right. But at the. You know, I commend him for including that in the movement. They also, you know. Yeah, so they got. They got some criticism from that direction. They also got criticism from people who took exception to the sort of view of gender as a pretty rigid hierarchy. Right. And I think Dumay described it as, like, they encourage both tenderness and traditionalism.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. She calls them tender warriors.

[Drew Dick]

Okay, Tender warriors. Right. Yeah. And so, yeah, so they got criticism certainly from the right and the left when it came to some of these things. But that's interesting. And I think it was his, like, background as a coach, you know, working with a lot of different ethnicities that led him to kind of include this. And so, yeah, it's a mixed bag. It's really interesting. And I think it does kind of go back to. What you're talking about is anytime you put what you might call the fruit of the gospel or the things that result from the Christian life out as a motivator for people, bad things tend to happen. Not right away. And the problem is too, like, even as you're describing that, I'm like, yeah, but this works, right? It works, quote, unquote, to grow a church. It works to grow a movement. Right. If you tell people, hey, if you come to Jesus, if you join this movement, we're going to take back America, you're going to have a better marriage, you're going to have whatever it is, it works. But unfortunately, in the long term, and I think on a broader scale, maybe this is what has created a lot of disillusionment among the younger generation that looks at what baby boomer Christianity did in America and sees some of the missteps and kind of goes, man, I want nothing to do with that. So sometimes in the long. And then in just people's spiritual journeys, too, once you do come to Christ and you go, man, this is harder than I thought it was going to be. I didn't realize that it wasn't just that my life would all get better and that I'd be awesome at work and at home, that it can create some personal disillusionment as well.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what happened. When you look at the decade after, as Promise Keepers was sort of declining and going into obscurity in the early 2000s, what emerged, we kind of left behind the tender part of tender warriors and just focused on the warriors thing. You got the Mark Driscoll. The Mark Driscoll phenomenon, and we're still with it kind of the manosphere, the overlap of the manosphere and the. The white Christian nationalist thing going on in the country right now. And A lot of it is just a chest thumping kind of masculinity with a cross hanging around it that.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. Is now, that makes Promise Keepers look downright soft and feminine.

[Sky Jutani]

Exactly, exactly. So I think it. But in a weird way, Promise Keepers primed the pump for that movement because it created this men's rallying warrior rhetoric. Take back the country, take back your life, take back your family kind of thing, but do it tenderly, like in khakis and loafers, but with a cell.

[Drew Dick]

Phone clipped your belt.

[Sky Jutani]

Right. But. But eventually people got sick of the tender side of it, especially after 9, 11 and sort of this feeling America's under attack and we have this culture war thing going on and this civilizational war with Muslims and all that craziness that happened in that era. And what came to the forefront was just the Christian warrior thing. And I think we're still living with the aftermath of that now.

[Drew Dick]

That's really interesting. And like we said, I mean, I think it was well intentioned. I think. I don't. I didn't know him, obviously, but grateful for him. And it's like hindsight's 2020 as well, you know, so. And here's the other complicating factor is that I feel like men need things like this. You know, men need like sports teams and Boy Scouts and youth group and we're herd animals, right. I mean, so there need to be some of these things, but we just got to do them in a way that Jesus is truly at the center rather than the periphery.

[Sky Jutani]

Agreed. Okay, next story.

[Drew Dick]

What do you got? Okay, here is, this isn't a story. It's an article on Gospel Coalition. And I just thought it's an interesting conversation starter more than anything. But the article is called do your Sunday songs pass the test? This guy, Brandon Ryan, I think he's a worship leader, basically gives his criteria for evaluating church worship songs, right? And he's got four. And it's like, are they biblical? Good question. You know, are they singable? Another good question. Does it meet. And I think it was, does it meet a need? And then the last one was, do I trust the source? Yeah, that was interesting to me because, you know, this has been a debate. It's funny, like one of those debates that breaks out on Christian social media every year. I feel like, can you sing songs by someone who had a big moral failing? Can you sing songs from people that are outside your theological tribe? Can you sing songs where the theology is a little mushy? That's a little different, I guess, but.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, I Thought this was an interesting article and the particulars we can debate or pick at. Maybe we will. But I think that the general idea, though, is one that just not enough churches and church leaders are really thinking about.

[Drew Dick]

You're right.

[Sky Jutani]

Like, when I was a local church pastor, I would put, gosh, 20, 30 hours a week into my sermons or something ridiculous. And. And after a few years of that, it dawned on me that no matter how much intentionality, effort, theological study I put into my sermons, what's really shaping the theology of the people in my church were the songs they were singing. Oh, like that. That is the most formative thing that happens in a lot of our congregations. It's the music, for various reasons. And then when you look at the songs we sing, I mean, there. There's a whole spectrum. Some are beautiful, brilliant, biblical, deep, rich. It's all good. Love it. And then there are songs that are just horrible. Like. And they're either horrible, but, like, as this guy says, because they're just flat out unbiblical, like, bad theology. Because they're just. They're just wrong, frankly. But people like the melody or they like the hook or whatever. And then there are many more who I wouldn't put in the heretical, unbiblical, like, bad teaching category, but I would just put them in the category of sentimental. Like, there's no substance. Saccharine. Right. There just could be.

[Drew Dick]

To God. Could be. To a girl.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, exactly. And you just go, really? This and. And. But that. I really believe the music that people sing regularly in their church is probably what is shaping their view of God and their theology or the songs that they're hearing all the time on Christian radio or wherever they're listening to that. So that is so deeply formative of our vision of God and our beliefs and our theology. And a lot of it is really bad, or at least not helpful. And so I do think. I think his. His general, you know, call in this article is a really, really important one. And it's not just for worship leaders. Like, whoever's selecting the music for a congregation, whether it's an individual or a team or whatever, those people need to be really theologically informed. And pastors, like, truly pastors, not just musicians, they need to be thinking about the formation of the people in their church. And I don't envy that task. I think it's a hard one, especially when in a consumer culture like ours, people, more than anything else, pick the church they attend based on the music that's performed. So you have this tension between. Well, we want people to be entertained, but we want them to be formed. And often what's very formative in our life is not things we would choose because they're not fun. And yet that's what forms us. So I'm not here to give, like, answers like, do these songs and not those songs, but I think a lot of the music that permeates a lot of our churches is not helpful at best and in some cases, malformative.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Then you have the further challenge. Like, especially if you have multiple generations within a church, even if you're trying to entertain them, you're not going to entertain or make everyone happy. So it's. Yeah, it's an important task for sure when it comes. Here's my perhaps controversial take. I don't. I'm actually cool singing songs if they're like, they meet this criteria and these are good things. Like, it's got to be singable. First of all, there can be like a lot of theological depth. And if it's like, the melody's terrible and, you know, it's got to have good theology and stuff, but if the person that wrote it happened to do something bad later, I'm like, don't throw away the song. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater. And I know a lot of people disagree.

[Sky Jutani]

I actually agree with you.

[Drew Dick]

Oh, yes.

[Sky Jutani]

I actually agree with you.

[Drew Dick]

Mike is dragged for this.

[Sky Jutani]

And there's. Well, no, but there's multiple reasons. First of all, I mean, he let me look up what he said in this article about that part.

[C]

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