The SkyePod - Drew's News

Summary

The SkyePod - Drew's News: In-Depth Summary

Release Date: January 17, 2025

Hosts:

• Skye Jethani: Host of The SkyePod
• Drew Dick: Monthly contributor providing "Drew's News"

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Introduction

The episode begins with Skye Jethani welcoming Drew Dick, who joins as usual to present his monthly roundup of noteworthy and possibly overlooked stories from the past month. Skye humorously likens Drew's role to that of a faithful retriever, dedicated even amidst personal commitments like Drew's impending family vacation to Hawaii.

Notable Quote:

• Skye Jethani [00:38]: "The fact that you did that while planning a vacation to Hawaii with your family just shows how dedicated you are."

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Feature Story: Wesley Huff on The Joe Rogan Experience

The primary focus of this episode is Drew's analysis of a significant appearance by Wesley Huff, a 33-year-old Canadian Christian apologist and scholar, on The Joe Rogan Experience podcast. The discussion delves into the impact and quality of Huff's presentation, considering the vast and varied audience of Joe Rogan.

Key Points:

• Wesley Huff's Background: Christian apologist with expertise in ancient languages and scholarship.
• Podcast Reach: The Joe Rogan Experience boasts the largest podcast audience globally, offering immense reach for Huff's message.
• Drew's Perspective: Praises Huff for presenting the faith thoughtfully without being overly argumentative or preachy.

Notable Quotes:

• Drew Dick [02:03]: "Possibly the widest reaching, long form gospel presentation in history is what he called it."
• Skye Jethani [04:03]: "He presented it articulately, intelligently, thoughtfully, and not in a jackassery sort of way."

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Analysis of Venue and Context

Skye and Drew examine the implications of Wesley Huff choosing The Joe Rogan Experience as his platform. While acknowledging the positive reach, they express concerns about the podcast's reputation for hosting diverse and sometimes controversial topics, including conspiracy theories and vaccine skepticism.

Key Points:

• Venue Impact: The juxtaposition of gospel presentation with a platform known for varied and sometimes fringe content may influence audience reception.
• Cultural Shift: Noting Joe Rogan's own shift towards cultural conservatism, which may align with Christian themes and attract Christian apologists like Huff.
• Strategic Positioning: The discussion touches on how public figures adapt their content to cater to evolving audience demographics, potentially blending diverse ideologies.

Notable Quotes:

• Skye Jethani [06:13]: "If you go on a platform where there is a lot of nonsense being spewed, and then you are talking about the gospel... does it cheapen it in some way?"
• Drew Dick [09:48]: "It's much easier to get a man interested in something if he financially benefits by being interested in it."

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The Testosterone Gospel and Cultural Masculinity

The conversation shifts to a broader cultural analysis, introducing the concept of the "Testosterone Gospel." Skye defines it as a framework that equates traditional masculine stereotypes with virtue and feminine qualities with sinfulness, ultimately distorting Christian teachings to fit hyper-masculine ideals.

Key Points:

• Definition of Testosterone Gospel:

  1. Acceptance of Gender Stereotypes: Uncritical acceptance of cultural norms around masculinity and femininity.
  2. Virtue and Sin Assignment: Strength, power, and aggression as virtues; gentleness and compassion as sins.
  3. Redefining Jesus: Portraying Jesus in line with 21st-century masculine stereotypes.
  4. Worshiping a Distorted Jesus: Elevating a hyper-masculine version of Jesus, distancing from traditional Christian virtues.

• Impact on Perception: This framework leads to the idolization of figures like Andrew Tate, who embody the "testosterone gospel," while dismissing their morally reprehensible actions as acceptable masculine behavior.

Notable Quotes:

• Skye Jethani [19:44]: "You remake Jesus in the image of 21st century masculine stereotypes."
• Skye Jethani [21:08]: "Worship this testosterone Jesus as the false God of your false form of Christianity."

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Andrew Tate and the Manosphere Influence

Drew introduces the topic of Andrew Tate, a controversial figure known for his misogynistic views and alleged criminal activities. The discussion explores Tate's appeal among young Christian men and the problematic intersection with the "testosterone gospel."

Key Points:

• Andrew Tate's Persona: Former kickboxer, social media personality, and self-professed pimp with numerous criminal accusations.
• Cultural Appeal: Despite his reprehensible behavior, Tate's image of machismo and success attracts a significant following, including among Christian youth.
• Christian Community's Response: Outrage and confusion among Christian women and leaders regarding young men's idolization of Tate, highlighting a disconnect in church leadership and cultural teachings.

Notable Quotes:

• Drew Dick [14:49]: "He's a sex trafficker. There are very credible accusations, criminal accusations that he's abused and trafficked women."
• Skye Jethani [18:31]: "The Internet's just filled with it... the idea that Andrew Tate represents an authentic version of Christianity."

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Cultural Responses and Gender Dynamics

Skye and Drew analyze how cultural movements, such as the LGBTQ+ rights movement and the rise of hyper-masculinity, have influenced societal norms and Christian teachings. They discuss the tension between allowing gender expression and the backlash that leads to extreme stereotypes.

Key Points:

• Gender Fluidity Evolution: The gay rights movement initially promoted the acceptance of gender ambiguities but led to complexities with the trans movement, which enforces strict gender binaries.
• Cultural Reaction: The backlash against perceived gender fluidity results in exaggerated masculine stereotypes as a means of reasserting traditional gender roles.
• Implications for Christianity: These cultural shifts pressure Christian communities to adopt extreme interpretations of masculinity, often misaligning with core Christian virtues.

Notable Quotes:

• Skye Jethani [19:21]: "It's the harping celebration of gender being fluid, and then the trans movement comes along and undoes that ambiguity."
• Skye Jethani [21:08]: "At least he's doing it as a man."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the ongoing cultural battles over masculinity, faith, and societal values. Skye emphasizes the need for a balanced understanding of Christian virtues that transcend rigid gender stereotypes, advocating for a return to foundational Christian teachings that embrace both strength and compassion.

Notable Quote:

• Skye Jethani [21:08]: "What you're talking about is actually committing crimes against innocent people. Yeah, but at least he's doing it as a man."

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Additional Notes:

• Subscription Prompt: The episode ends with a promotional segment encouraging listeners to subscribe to Holy Post Plus for exclusive content, though this section is not included in the summary as per instructions to omit non-content sections.

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Summary Overview: In this episode of The SkyePod, Skye Jethani and Drew Dick engage in a comprehensive discussion on the intersection of modern masculinity, Christian faith, and cultural influences. Central to the conversation is Wesley Huff's impactful appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience, which serves as a springboard for examining the broader implications of the "testosterone gospel" and its influence on young Christians. The analysis navigates through the complexities of gender dynamics, the allure of controversial figures like Andrew Tate, and the challenges faced by Christian communities in maintaining authentic teachings amidst societal shifts. The episode underscores the necessity of reconciling traditional Christian virtues with contemporary understandings of masculinity and gender, advocating for a faith that upholds compassion, strength, and integrity beyond stereotypical confines.

Transcript

[Sky Jutani]

Link together the testosterone gospel and this.

[Drew Dick]

Manifesting stuff got a bestseller, man.

[Sky Jutani]

You got a bestseller. And the man pun is right in there. Hello. Welcome to the Sky Pod. I'm Sky Jutani. This podcast is brought to you by Holy Post Media. And joining me, as he does every month, is Drew Dick. Hi, Drew.

[Drew Dick]

Sky. I'm glad to be back, and as you know, I'm going to Hawaii in two days.

[Sky Jutani]

I feel honored that you were able to fit us in before that happened and that you prioritized being back on the Sky. People may not know this if you're newer to the show, but I release Drew into the wild every month. Kind of like a homing pigeon or one of those of those falcons that goes, you know, off of the shoulder. Off the. And. And you scour the Internet and look for important stories, and then you come back like a. A faithful retriever land on your shoulder. Yep. And you present to us your Drew's news. The top stories from the last month that maybe were overlooked, that didn't get enough attention that you think we need to talk about. And the fact that you did that while planning a vacation to Hawaii with your family just shows how dedicated you are.

[Drew Dick]

It just shows how competent I am that I can juggle two things like that.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. Which newspaper is like all the. Their tagline is all the news that's fit to print.

[Drew Dick]

I think that's the Gray lady, the New York Times, isn't it?

[Sky Jutani]

Is that the Gray Lady? Yeah, because democracy dies in darkness is the Washington Post. Right. So, and so what you bring us is not all the news that's fit for print. It's all the news that Drew could stomach. I don't know what a lot of.

[Drew Dick]

It isn't probably fit for print, but probably not. Bring it anyway.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, we got a tight timeline here today, so let's jump in. What are you bringing us first?

[Drew Dick]

Okay, well, the first story, and you may have seen this, the Internet is buzzing about a young, brilliant Canadian. And before I go any further, I know what you're thinking, but it's not me they're talking about a gentleman named Wesley huffman. He's a 33 year old Canadian Christian apologist and scholar, and he was recently on a little podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience. And Joe Rogan interviewed him as he does for like, what, three hours? You know, that long form sort of interview. And, you know, the consensus was, and I'll be curious about your take, sky, is that he did a great job. That he, yeah. Was interesting, was conciliatory. Not overly argumentative. I don't know if you saw this, but let me know your take.

[Sky Jutani]

All right. Well, true confession, I don't typically watch three hour Joe Rogan episodes.

[Drew Dick]

I just either.

[Sky Jutani]

I. Sorry. I have a life. I have something else I need to do. I did see a couple of highlights on YouTube and. Yeah, I mean, and other things I read about the interview. It seems like when Wesley Huff represented the faith well and was not an embarrassment, I guess is one way to put it to the faith, which is great. And I mean, for those who don't know, the Joe Rogan experience is the largest audience, podcast audience in the world. So it has some reach. It certainly has some reach. One person said. Go ahead.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, I saw one person commenting. This might be an overstatement, but he said possibly the widest reaching, long form gospel presentation in history is what he called it. I think Billy Graham would like a word, but I understand what he's saying. It's like huge audience. They talked for three plus hours and he did a good job of, you know, presenting the gospel.

[Sky Jutani]

So now let's do what we do and let's. Let's pick it apart a little bit.

[Drew Dick]

Find the weaknesses.

[Sky Jutani]

No, not the weakness, but okay, a couple of things. Again, I didn't watch the three hour thing and again, I'm glad he presented it well. I think what I saw, he presented it articulately, intelligently, thoughtfully, and not in a jackassery sort of way, which is all great. And the fact that maybe 3 million people were exposed to this content is also really cool. But two things I want to talk about here. One is I. This is. People are going to probably lose their minds about this. I think there's a difference between giving evidence for the validity of the Christian faith or the resurrection of Jesus or the deity of Jesus, whatever. I think that is not the same thing as presenting the gospel.

[Drew Dick]

Ah, yeah, no, you have a point there.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, right. And I mean, they need to have. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do. I actually had an apologetics ministry with Mike Erie actually when we were college students at Miami. So I'm not against that. People have obstacles, intellectual objections, concerns about the. The truthfulness of scripture or the Christian messages like that needs to be tackled. That's a huge deal. But I don't think that is synonymous with preaching the gospel or presenting the gospel 100%.

[Drew Dick]

And I had the same thought too. Like some people, I'm like, oh, are we overstating this? Not that it isn't great like, and actually what I liked about what he did is he stayed in his lane. He's not a preacher, right? He's not a guy who's given the kind of basic gospel appeal. He's a scholar. He's like, well, he's getting his PhD, but he's obviously very knowledgeable. You watch the interview, he knows, you know, he speaks, he knows Greek and Hebrew and he geeks out on the ancient world. And that's what actually, I think made him a perfect guest for that venue, because that's what Joe Rogan kind of likes to do. It's like, he's like, you know, it was like, Wesley Huff's letting you in on this secret knowledge. And I went to Egypt and I translated these manuscripts. And rather than just kind of making the kind of like, case for Christ argument. And it's more disarming in a way too, the way he did it. But I agree, like you said, I mean, the gospel certainly in there, but that wasn't exactly the point. And I think that was actually good. He's like, hey, I'm an expert. I love this stuff. I'm going to show you some cool stuff. And I think that's the right approach.

[Sky Jutani]

So that's great. The second thing, though, is the venue, right? The Joe Rogan Experience. Like, some of the other stuff that he's platformed on that program are things that, let's just say, are not exactly mainstream from. I mean, every conspiracy theory you can imagine has basically found a willing audience on the Joe Rogan podcast. So I don't know what that means. Like, does that mean. I mean, on one level, forget the context. Millions of people heard thoughtful, intelligent, well researched ideas about the validity of the faith. That alone is great. But when you put it in a context of they've heard thoughtful, well reasoned arguments about vaccine skepticism and the use of hallucinogenics for mental health. And every stop, the steel conspiracy in QAnon and UFOs and alien abduction. They've heard all that on the Joe Rogan Experience too. Do we want. That's where it gets kind of weird for me. And I'm really intrigued with Rogan and the shift he's been on over the last couple of years towards kind of conservatism culturally. And I think I. I suspect that the Christianity thing is part of that. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[Drew Dick]

As some people have observed, he has seemingly grown more warm to Christian theology. He's actually, you know, he's mocked Christian beliefs and totally not a Christian by his own Admission. And it's interesting, actually, because the backstory of how Wesley Huff got on the podcast kind of touches on what you said. I don't know if you saw this, but he. So Huff appeared on a different podcast debating a guy named Billy Carson. And Carson is a regular, I think, on. He's definitely been on the Joe Rogan Experience, and he bills himself as an expert in ancient civilizations, spirituality, aliens, kind of some crackpot theories. Right. And this guy, Billy Carson, goes on a different podcast. I forget the name of the podcast. To debate Huff. Now, it was a nice debate, but very quickly you watch that. I actually watch that full debate. You see that, that Billy. No, no, sorry. Billy Carson is out of his depth. He clearly doesn't know anything about ancient Christianity. And Huff exposes that pretty quickly. Like Billy Carson says, oh, well, Jesus wasn't really crucified. And Huff is like, whoa, okay, let's see. The earliest manuscripts we have have his crucifixion. It's the one thing that all scholars, whether they're atheist or Christian, agree upon. And that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. Like, he had these kind of weird Da Vinci Code level theories that were quickly debunked, and then he looks so bad, and that it's actually uncomfortable to watch. Billy Carson threatens legal action against the podcast, saying, if you release this episode, I'm going to come after you. And the. To the credit of the podcast, they released it anyway. And then that's what Joe Rogan saw. And it kind of put Wesley Huff, the apologist, on Joe Rogan's radar because he had had Billy Carson on his podcast many times. But I think your point is a good one. It's like, okay, do you. When you go on a platform where there is a lot of nonsense being spewed, and then you are talking about the gospel, about ancient Christianity, about the proofs for Jesus's death and resurrection, does it cheapen it in some way? And I think that's a good question. I mean, my mind does go immediately to, like, you know, Paul at Mars Hill, you know, where, hey, it's like it's the marketplace of ideas.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

You kind of go where the people are, so.

[Sky Jutani]

And I'm glad, and I'm glad Huff did it. And again, he seemed to have done it really, really well. I'm more intrigued by Rogan himself. And here's what I mean. One of my favorite quotes, which I've used a lot in the last 10 years, is from Upton Sinclair, and he said, it's very difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on him not understanding it. Have you heard that before?

[Drew Dick]

It's so good. Yes.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. I mean, it's just we've bumped into this over and over and over again in recent years. But in a weird way, the inverse is also true. It's much easier to get a man interested in something if he financially benefits by being interested in it. And, and so I'm not saying this is true of Joe Rogan. I don't know the man. I have no idea what's going on with his own belief systems or ideas. But one thing you've seen over and over and over again from different people with public platforms is as that as their audience, as they realize there's a lot more money and audience to be made on the, on the cultural right, Maga, Trumpism, all that, more and more of those people who are either atheists or agnostic slowly start dabbling in Christianity stuff. I'm thinking of like Jordan Peterson. He went on that journey. Now he's doing Bible studies about Exodus and talking to even Donald Trump. I mean, Donald Trump, when he was first on the scene back in 2015 and kind of experimenting with his messaging among Republican voters, he kind of stumbled onto the fact, oh, these people really like the Bible. I guess I'll do a photo shoot with the Bible. Or these people really like the flag. I'm going to hug a flag. Well, but that's my point is like they, they, they figure out what their audience likes and then they go, well, I should do more of that. And I wonder. This is a wonder. I'm not making an accusation. I wonder if, as Joe Rogan and his audience has become more maga, he's realized, oh, these MAGA folks are also very into Christianity. Maybe I should do more of that kind of content for that audience. And it's so. It made sense to me a number of years ago that he would just mock Christianity or be totally antagon, stick toward the religious right because that's not who his audience was. But now that he's gone more and more to the right and more and more politically conservative, it's interesting that he's also platforming people who are Christian apologists and he's more understanding and sympathetic. Maybe it's completely genuine and he's having a real openness to the gospel. If that's the case, wonderful. Even if it's not the case, wonderful. I'm glad he platformed this guy and I'm glad they had, you know, this conversation. But it's Intriguing to me that you see this trajectory happening regularly with people who are either anti faith, antagonistic to faith, or antagonistic to orthodox Christianity. And then as their audience goes culturally conservative, they go, oh, actually, let's talk about the Bible more. Let's talk about Jesus more. Let's talk about Christianity more. Because it's, it's kind of a pathogen.

[Drew Dick]

Soften your critiques of it.

[Sky Jutani]

Exactly.

[Drew Dick]

And that's the problem. It's impossible to know where they're really at because they're not idiots. They see that evangelical men, in this case form a large. I'm sure they got the breakdown of their demographics, like who's listening? And they go, do I really want to alienate this huge slice of my, my listenership? And so I get that temptation. So it doesn't make it complicated to know where.

[Sky Jutani]

That's the Daily Wire where Jordan Peterson has his biggest platform is, is led by Ben. What's his name?

[Drew Dick]

Shapiro. Ben Shapiro, commentator.

[Sky Jutani]

Right. He's a very right wing conservative, Jewish. And yet there's a ton of Christian or Christian adjacent content on that platform because they know their audience. That's what the audience wants. And on the flip side, there are very committed progressive Democrats who never talk about faith because they know their core audience are the secularists who don't want to go there and would be a. You know, so it's just interesting to me how you end up catering to the audience that pays the bills.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, so true. That's why I love you, sky, because you just offend everyone.

[Sky Jutani]

That's right. And we're going to before the end of the show, probably. All right, what's next?

[Drew Dick]

Oh, yeah, I think we covered that pretty well. And yeah, if people haven't seen it, it is worth a watch. Full disclosure, I watched maybe an hour and a half of it, man. I'm the same boat as you, man. I got like a job and kids and a life. And I'm like, wow, three and a half hours is a tough slog, even if it's interesting. Speaking of the manosphere, I think that's the, the connection here. This week there's been a lively debate on X.com and other places about Andrew Tate. Now, Andrew Tate, if you don't know him, just thank God I'm going to ruin it right now. He's a social media personality, I guess you could say professional or former professional kickboxer. But he, an unabashed misogynist, sexist, brags about how many women he slept with, even pimped. He is like, like by his own admission, he's been a pimp.

[Sky Jutani]

He's a sex trafficker.

[Drew Dick]

He's a sex trafficker. There are very credible accusations, criminal accusations that he's abused and trafficked women. So, yeah, he's just a massive pig, despicable guy. But he has a ton of followers and he's got this machismo. He's a very harsh critic of the woke culture, whatever. And so that's gotten him a lot of love on the right. Sadly, the question the debate was among Christians. And this is disturbing because I've heard this multiple times from pastors. I talked to a pastor just recently and he said he's Talking to these 8th grade boys in his church and they're into Andrew Tate. And he's like, whoa, who is this guy? Because a lot of people don't know. And then you find out who he is and you're like, how in the world, especially Christian boys would be into this dude?

[Sky Jutani]

Now, I don't know a ton about Tate other than the little bits I read here and there. Does he claim Christian faith?

[Drew Dick]

No, no, I didn't say that. He was an atheist. Then he was a Christian, now he's a Muslim. But then he'll say things that are. It's funny actually, to your point earlier about sucking up to your base or whatever, he'll say things like Christ is king and stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, because he knows he has a lot of sadly Christian followers and he'll even stick up for Christianity as a cultural influence in Europe and say it's under siege and stuff like that. But no, he's Muslim. Although I'm sure the Muslims wouldn't be proud to claim him.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. And his appeal, beyond the kickboxing, womanizing, sex trafficking, pimp thing, it's, it's. He has all of these other symbols of success, right? The money, cars, the fancy vacations and locations and homes. Like all he just exemplifies the self indulgent, consumeristic. Yeah, all of that nonsense that people think this is what the good life is.

[Drew Dick]

And he's, you know, I've read things that he's probably not as rich as he's claiming. Like, he'll, he'll go and like rent a Castle for 800 bucks a night and then get all these pictures of himself. But he does have all these like fancy cars and watches and just hedonistic. Absolute right. Sexist monsters.

[Sky Jutani]

So, yeah, so you sent me a bunch of links to, to post on X and I've, I've seen this in other social media platforms too. And it's interesting because it's mostly Christian women who are of understandably outraged by this guy and bewildered and bewildered and outraged at how many young Christian men and boys seem to idolize him. And so the Internet's just filled with it. Well, one of the. I was reading through one of those threads and somebody, I don't know who this is, somebody was posting a defense of this idolization of Andrew Tate. And I want to read this post. X tweet, whatever we call them now. This guy says young men want an authentic version of Christianity, not the effeminate and emasculated version of Christianity many preach. Until the pastors and church leaders realize that our movement, I think he means like kind of the Andrew Tate movement, will continue to grow exponentially because we're speaking the truth about the issues facing young men across the West. That I think is the. I mean, someone might need some mouthwash after, you know, I need. After saying that. But it's like that this idea that Andrew Tate represents an authentic version of Christianity and what most people get in most American Christian churches is effeminate and emasculated Christianity. Yeah, I really interesting post.

[Drew Dick]

Exactly. But I. What I saw from like the theobros, like conservative guys was saying, okay, Andrew Tate is not right about everything and even criticizing him. But it's our fault that these young men are drawn to Andrew Tate because we have propped up these effeminate pastors. I mean, one had this picture of the preacher, Matt Chandler, in a pink sweater, and he was, he was with his whole family. They're all wearing the same pink sweater. You know, it's sort of like.

[Sky Jutani]

Well, the fact that. The fact that he has children in a family, that alone is a reason to make him suspect.

[Drew Dick]

I guess so. But I just found it so silly because, like, you know, you've seen those cute videos of like a little girl putting like makeup on her daddy or something, and you could grab that and go, look at this effeminate man. No, he's being a dad. Okay. Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

So this is what I really want to talk about. I'm really glad you brought this topic up because I think it speaks to a larger theme. And this even came up a little bit with the Joe Rogan thing, the manosphere, all that kind of stuff. And I've been thinking about how to identify this, and maybe someone else already has, but I think I'm landing on a label and it's the testerone gospel.

[Drew Dick]

Testosterone gospel, man. Don't make it so catchy, Scott. I know.

[Sky Jutani]

Testosterone gospel. So here's how I would define the testosterone gospel and how you get there. First step is you need to uncritically accept our cultural stereotypes of masculinity and femininity. Right. There's no ambiguity. And it. And it is stereotypes. It's just whatever. Second stage is, after you accept the cultural stereotypes, you need to define virtue as being all things masculine and sinfulness as all things feminine. So virtues become strength, power, ambition, aggression, sexual exploitation, and triumph. Violence, intimidation. Those all become virtues in this testosterone gospel. On the flip side, what becomes sinful? Gentleness, kindness, nurturing, compromise.

[Drew Dick]

Basically empathy.

[Sky Jutani]

Like all those things become anathema, they become sinful and wrong. Okay, so that's step two. Step one, accept the stereotypes of gender. Step two, assign virtue to the masculine stereotypes and sin to the feminine ones. Step three is you then apply that definition of virtue to Jesus. So you remake Jesus in the image of 21st century masculine stereotypes.

[Drew Dick]

Right.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay. And then the final step of the testosterone gospel is you now then worship this testosterone Jesus as the false God of your false form of Christianity. That's what happens here. And like you said, when you look at the fruit of the spirit, those things which Paul and the apostles and Jesus elevate as evidence that you actually are in communion with God become signs that you're not, because those are soft and feminine and caring and self control. Are you kidding me? And I think this also explains why people who are caught up in this testosterone gospel are really reluctant to criticize or disqualify someone like an Andrew Tate. Because his sins aren't really sins anymore. They're the only real sins are acting like a woman. And, and that he's not being weak, he's not being sensitive, he's not being compassionate. So therefore he gets a pass, even though he's literally committing crimes against innocent people. Yeah, but at least he's doing it as a man. Right. And that's what's so perverse about this testosterone gospel. Yeah, it's bonkers, but it's everywhere. And I mean, I could go on about this, about why it's so appealing, but I think one of the reasons is we live in an age where the left has celebrated gender fluidity, and in reaction to that, the right has now made gender stereotypes into a sacred truth.

[Drew Dick]

Hmm, that's interesting. And the pendulum swinging too far both ways, probably. And yeah, and that's interesting because what you saw, I mean, generally with the debate about Andrew Tate among Christians was like, one side accusing the Other of being the problem. Right. The hardcore testosterone gospel guys are like, it's because we're too effeminate. And then young boys are drawn to this because they're just. They need that portrayal of masculinity according to their definition. And other people saying, well, actually, maybe it's because we're fostering a culture within some churches and movements that idolize a sort of machismo testosterone gospel that make someone like Andrew Tate seem not so far beyond the pale. Right.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. And I mean, I'm part of this. I mean, someone needs to do like a PhD on this and really do the research and write the arguments. But in a weird. All right, this is gonna go really off the rails now. I was reading some Andrew Sullivan stuff a while ago. I don't know if you know Andrew Sullivan.

[Drew Dick]

Oh, yeah. I mean, not personally, but I probably Roman Catholic, gay.

[Sky Jutani]

He was one of the very early advocates of gay marriage, back in the late 80s, I think. But he's pretty critical of the trans movement. And his writing is interesting in all this. And he's an insider. I'm certainly not, but I find it illuminating. And one of the things he's talked about in some of his writings is that the gay movement, the gay rights movement, made it okay for men and. Or women to exhibit qualities that don't code completely masculine or completely feminine. Like, you can be a man with stereotypical feminine qualities and still be a man. Right. Or you can be a woman that has more culturally defined masculine qualities and still be a woman. That's where gay men and lesbian women kind of fit into some of the. The cultural framework. But what he then argues is the trans movement comes along and actually undoes that ambiguity.

[Drew Dick]

Right.

[Sky Jutani]

Because if. Now, if you're a boy who exhibits some feminine qualities, the question is, well, you're doing that because you're actually a girl.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

Or if you're a girl that has masculine qualities, well, it's because you're actually a boy. And when you are now in that environment where it's not okay to be a boy with feminine qualities, it's not okay to be a girl with masculine qualities. The way to show that no, I'm really a boy or I'm really a man is to go hyper masculine or hyper feminine, which is what you kind of see in a lot of social media, because you want to make clear to yourself and everyone else, I am a man, I am a woman. Whereas the. The early gay rights movement was saying, no, it's okay if you don't fit the stereotypes. You know what I mean?

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. And I've seen them. I don't know if this is Andrew Sullivan or someone else, but yeah. Expressing concern that maybe say, a young boy that exhibits culturally feminine habits or, or traits will be transitioned when it was really when he'd otherwise really just grow up and be a gay man.

[Sky Jutani]

Right. And that's happened in, like, there's a reason Iran, which is, you know, very fundamentalist Islamic society. They've embraced transgenderism.

[Drew Dick]

Oh, really?

[Sky Jutani]

Oh, yeah. And the argument is because they. They absolutely.

[C]

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[Sky Jutani]

Hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll.

[C]

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