The SkyePod - Drew's News

Summary

The SkyePod - Drew's News
Release Date: June 13, 2025
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Drew Dick

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Introduction

In this episode of The SkyePod, host Skye Jethani is joined by his monthly guest, Drew Dick, for another edition of Drew's News. The segment delves into compelling and often overlooked stories from around the internet, some intersecting with faith, religion, and Christianity, while others touch on broader societal issues.

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1. The Downfall of Michael Tate and the Evangelical Subculture

Timestamp: [00:55] – [14:08]

Overview:
Drew Dick opens the discussion with a somber topic: the credible allegations against Michael Tate, a prominent figure in the Christian music scene. Tate, known for his roles in DC Talk and later as the lead singer of Newsboys, faced multiple charges of sexual assault dating back to the 1990s.

Key Points:

• Allegations and Admission:

  • Multiple men in their early 20s accused Michael Tate of grooming them with alcohol and drugs before sexually assaulting them.
  • Tate has acknowledged that these allegations are "largely true," offering a sincere mea culpa.

  Drew Dick [01:47]: "And Connecticut and others picked up the story, and he has since acknowledged that the allegations are largely true, in his words. And he actually gave a pretty good, in my view, mea culpa."

• Impact on the Evangelical Community:

  • Michael Tate was a significant star in the 1990s Christian contemporary music world, with bands like DC Talk and Newsboys playing pivotal roles in the evangelical subculture.
  • Drew reminisces about personal experiences attending DC Talk concerts, highlighting the widespread influence and admiration fans had for Tate.

  Sky Jutani [02:37]: "It's hard to overstate how big a star he was and how big a deal DC Talk was."

• Substance Abuse:

  • Throughout his career, Tate struggled with alcohol and drug abuse, including cocaine use.
  • This abuse was not adequately addressed within the Christian music industry, raising questions about the community's accountability mechanisms.

• Cultural Mythology of Fame and Blessing:

  • The evangelical subculture often equates fame and a large platform with God's blessings.
  • However, Tate's case exemplifies how fame can become a barrier to personal well-being and spiritual formation.

  Sky Jutani [07:42]: "It just seems really gross that we continue down this mythology that fame and platform are God's blessing and the way he wants his mission advanced, when over and over and over again, we see that it leads to destruction."

• Lack of Accountability:

  • Tate's status insulated him from facing consequences early on.
  • Other band members and peers were aware of his struggles but hesitated to intervene, fearing it might hinder their own careers.

  Drew Dick [07:52]: "But when you are a big celebrity and people kind of want to leverage their connection with you to achieve their own level of success and fame, power does insulate you, even when you're doing these kind of abusive things."

• Broader Implications for the Church:

  • The episode critiques the evangelical subculture's prioritization of impact and reach over spiritual maturity and accountability.
  • There's a call to dismantle the flawed mythology that equates platform size with divine favor, advocating for a shift towards genuine character and faithfulness.

  Drew Dick [09:01]: "Giftedness does not equal faithfulness."

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2. The Debate Over Online Church: "Just Say No to Online Church"

Timestamp: [14:08] – [23:43]

Overview:
Transitioning from the troubling discourse on the evangelical subculture, Drew introduces an article from Christianity Today titled "Just Say No to Online Church" by Brad East. The discussion centers around the growing trend of hybrid congregations and the implications of integrating digital platforms into church ministry.

Key Points:

• Book Review:

  • The article reviews "The Hybrid Congregation: A Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era" by Michael Huether.
  • Huether argues passionately for the necessity of online church, stating that excluding digital engagement is akin to amputating a vital part of the Christian communal experience.

  Sky Jutani [15:06]: "Digital engagement is a part of our holistic discipleship. Removing digital realities from our faith is in fact, this is an amputation of an important part of our cultural experience from our life together with each other and with God."

• Shift in Pastoral Metrics:

  • Drew highlights a trend among pastors shifting their focus from traditional congregation size to online engagement metrics.
  • This reflects a broader evangelical fixation on impact and reach, sometimes at the expense of deeper spiritual connections.

  Drew Dick [16:54]: "But after that, it was, how many are you running on a Sunday. And people would joke, like, the farther you got away from your church and people didn't know you, the more members you could add."

• Critique of Digital Church Movement:

  • Sky connects the push for online church with the earlier discussion on the evangelical subculture's obsession with impact.
  • The emphasis on digital metrics can lead to neglecting the core aspects of faith and community, mirroring the earlier critique of valuing platform over character.

  Sky Jutani [17:02]: "We don't slow down and ask not whether I should do it, but is it actually consistent with the faith I believe."

• Arguments Against Huether's Position:

  • Brad East contends that while the world is undeniably digital, ministries should critically assess whether prioritizing online engagement aligns with their faith missions.
  • The mere presence online does not inherently enhance ministry effectiveness and may distract from authentic spiritual growth.

  Drew Dick [18:47]: "He confuses description and prescription. ... he doesn't stop long enough to ask, well, is this good or right and something the church ought to emulate?"

• Mediums and Their Influence:

  • Sky challenges Huether's assertion that digital media are neutral, arguing instead that different mediums have distinct potentials for both good and evil.
  • Drawing parallels with personal relationships, Sky emphasizes that while initial connections can happen online, sustaining meaningful relationships digitally is fraught with challenges.

  Sky Jutani [22:04]: "People go online to research and find and discover. That's also true for like dating, right? There is a medium whose potential for destruction is far greater than its potential for construction or blessing."

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Conclusion

Throughout this episode, Skye Jethani and Drew Dick engage in a critical examination of significant issues within the evangelical subculture. From the tragic downfall of a beloved Christian music star due to substance abuse and abuse of power, to the contentious debate over the role of digital platforms in modern ministry, the discussion underscores the need for introspection and accountability. The conversation calls for a reevaluation of what truly constitutes faithfulness and effective ministry, urging the evangelical community to prioritize genuine spiritual growth and ethical integrity over superficial measures of impact and reach.

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Notable Quotes:

• Drew Dick [01:47]: "He has since acknowledged that the allegations are largely true... he actually gave a pretty good, in my view, mea culpa."

• Sky Jutani [07:42]: "It just seems really gross... that we continue down this mythology that fame and platform are God's blessing... when over and over again, we see that it leads to destruction."

• Drew Dick [09:01]: "Giftedness does not equal faithfulness."

• Sky Jutani [15:06]: "Digital engagement is a part of our holistic discipleship... removing digital realities from our faith is ... an amputation of an important part of our cultural experience."

• Sky Jutani [22:04]: "There is a medium whose potential for destruction is far greater than its potential for construction or blessing."

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions from The SkyePod - Drew's News, providing insights into the challenges facing the evangelical community regarding accountability and the integration of digital mediums in ministry.

Transcript

[Sky Jutani]

I enjoy my brain. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Sky Pod, brought to you by Holy Post Media. I'm Sky Jutani, and joining me on this episode, as he does once a month, is my friend Drew Dick. Hi, Drew.

[Drew Dick]

Hey, Sky.

[Sky Jutani]

We are doing another edition of Drew's News where you do a lineup of stories that you scoured from around the Internet that maybe got overlooked or you just find interesting. Some of them have a direct kind of faith, religion, Christianity angle. Some don't at all. But we'll find it one way or another. So welcome back. Let's just jump right in. What do you want to start with? Something uplifting, positive, inspiring, Very positive.

[Drew Dick]

Yes. No, I'm sorry. This first one, sky, is a sad one, especially if, like me, you grew up in the Evangelical church. In the 1990s. This was a gut punch. Michael Tate of DC Talk fame, later of Newsboys, singer, rapper guy, was accused credibly by multiple men in their early 20s, or at least they were at. In their early 20s at the time. They came forward with allegations that Tate sexually assaulted them after grooming them, plying them with alcohol and booze, or being booze and drugs, I should say, and sexually assaulted them. So, you know, this was. Yeah, it first broke. Oh, what's her name? The. Julie.

[Sky Jutani]

Julie Roy's.

[Drew Dick]

Roy's. That's what I'm trying to say. Yes. And then Connecticut and others picked up the story, and he has since acknowledged that the allegations are largely true, in his words. And he actually gave a pretty good, in my view, mea culpa. Okay, yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay. Let's start with the fact that there are probably some folks listening to this who have no idea who DC Talk is, or newsboys or kind of unthinkable. I know, unthinkable, sort of 90s era Christian contemporary music world. How would you describe Michael Tate and DC Talk and then later the newsboys in their role in Christian subculture in the 1990s?

[Drew Dick]

It's hard to overstate how big a star he was and how big a deal DC Talk was.

[Sky Jutani]

Did you ever go to a concert?

[Drew Dick]

I went to a concert. They came to Canada. I remember dancing with my buddies in front of the stage, just completely star struck, and then just pathetically trying to rap afterwards. It was a low point, a high point, too.

[Sky Jutani]

Our high school youth group went to a concert in Chicago. I think it was D.C. talk, and I think the opening act was Audio Adrenaline.

[Drew Dick]

Oh, I remember them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

So that was my one exposure in a live setting to D.C. talk. And. But, yeah, I was a high school student, a college student. In the 90s, if you dabbled in the evangelical subculture, you had to encounter DC Talk, and you were unavoidable.

[Drew Dick]

Jesus Freak. All those great albums. And then later, Tate becomes the. I think, like maybe 2009 or so, becomes the lead singer of the Newsboys, which is another big Christian band. And he was in those God's Not Dead movies. That was the theme song. I know. Your favorite.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, I know. I've not seen any of them, but.

[Drew Dick]

What?

[Sky Jutani]

I know it's sad, but I haven't. But, okay, as I read the article and the allegations, which, again, he came out and said are, quote, unquote, largely true. There's like multiple levels here. First off, it turns out, and I don't have the quotes in front of me, but apparently throughout his career, going back to the 90s, there was a lot of drug and alcohol use.

[Drew Dick]

Right. Which was not cool. I mean, even alcohol back then.

[Sky Jutani]

Well, obviously alcohol in excess. It's one thing to kick back after a hard concert and have a beer. It's another thing to be routinely intoxicated and abusing alcohol. But then drug use, cocaine, I think, was specifically mentioned. So, I mean, my first question is, before you get into the sexual assault allegations, just the drugs and alcohol, you're like, how did he go decades within contemporary Christian music world abusing alcohol and drugs without somebody going, hey, maybe we have a problem here and help is needed or intervention is needed or something is like. That's the first part that's bewildering to me.

[Drew Dick]

Right. And the other guys, I mean, I don't want to cast aspersions, but the other guys must have known to some degree, I don't know about the abuse, although apparently these rumors had been swirling around the Christian music biz for a long time. But a lot of the guys who finally brought the allegations were reluctant because they were like aspiring music guys themselves.

[Sky Jutani]

Right, Right.

[Drew Dick]

You guys can help their career.

[Sky Jutani]

So one guy, one victim who was assaulted in 2010, at the time, he was 22 years old. This is a quote from the article. It says the man said that he kept the incident secret at the time for fear it would negatively impact his opportunities in CCM contemporary Christian music. And here's this quote. I very much did not want to be excommunicated. So, okay, here's the bigger picture that I kind of want to talk about, because I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of the story itself and all the allegations and all that and again, Michael Tate has said it's true, so we don't have to litigate it. But the broader picture is the American evangelical subculture has basically communicated for as long as I can remember that fame and a really big platform are evidence of God's blessings on your life and that they are the best way to advance his mission in the world. But yet, here's another story that shows it's actually the complete opposite, that a big platform and a lot of fame may well be a barrier to God's blessing in your life. And it's definitely the best way to impede formation in your life. Because not only did Michael Tate have a huge platform in this massive fame within the Christian subculture, and that probably prevented him on some levels from getting help he needed, both with drugs and alcohol and certainly with sexual boundaries and all that. But even his victims didn't pursue intervention or the authorities or outing him because they were so driven by fame and platform. So I don't like. It just seems really gross to me that we continue down this mythology that fame and platform are God's blessing and the way he wants his mission advanced, when over and over and over again, we see that it leads to destruction, malformation, and the unwinding of his mission. So we just are locked into this illusion, this mythology, and it just destroys life after life after life, both of victims and perpetrators who don't get help before it becomes problematic. So it's sad. The whole thing is sad. And I think it is the fruit of a completely rotten evangelical subculture that values the wrong things.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah. And I would speculate that a guy like Tate doing these kind of things, if he would have been an average Joe in a church somewhere, he probably would have got called on it a lot sooner.

[Sky Jutani]

Right.

[Drew Dick]

But when you are a big celebrity and people kind of want to leverage their connection with you to achieve their own level of success and fame, power does insulate you, even when you're doing these kind of abusive things, which is sad, because I understand that's true in the world. It probably shouldn't be true in the church. Right. We should have higher levels of accountability, regardless. And I think another thing, too, when you mentioned the myth of having a big platform somehow is evidence of God's blessing. I think there's a similar myth when it comes to this idea that if you can sing beautifully about God or even preach powerfully or write profoundly, that somehow that corresponds with a high level of spiritual maturity or character.

[Sky Jutani]

Totally.

[Drew Dick]

I think that's one of the biggest myths out there. And it's like, hey, you can have all those gifts, okay? And you can. I mean, the Bible says the gods of the gifts of God are irrevocable, Right? So you've got those gifts. And it doesn't necessarily mean, though, that your spiritual maturity is in line with that. You can be living like the devil.

[Sky Jutani]

Well, yeah.

[Drew Dick]

Giftedness does not equal faithfulness.

[Sky Jutani]

Let's break this down even further. Let's say somebody is a really talented speaker, performer, musician, pick your outlet. Let's say they're really, really profound at that. The assumption is that's a gift given to that person by the Holy Spirit. It may not be. It could just be really good flesh, to use a New Testament term. Right. They are just innately gifted. I don't want to use the word gifted. They're innately equipped to do those things. Well, but it's not empowered by God's spirit. It's just empowered by their flesh. So that's the first assumption we make, that it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And then we get to. Your problem is, let's say it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. We assume that giftedness is. Is the equivalent of maturity. And 1 Corinthians 13 breaks this down perfectly, right? You can have all the gifts you can have, speak in the tongues of angels and move mountains and all these things and have not love, then it's nothing. So it's another way. And Paul talks about this in Romans 12, everyone should use their gifts in proportion to their maturity, to their faith. So again, we are so enamored with power in the evangelical church, so enamored with impact, that we don't slow down and ask, is this person mature? Are they empowered through the spirit or through their flesh? And so many people are making so much money. That's the other dirty secret of this. This is the evangelical industrial complex. So many people are making so much money from these things that they turn a blind eye to alcohol or drugs or sadly, even sexual assault. So that, yeah, it's really, really sad. And this is not just about the corruption of one Christian artist. This is about the corruption of a Christian subculture. And this is just the latest story in many, many, many stories. And it's not going to stop because.

[Drew Dick]

It'S a sad liturgy of fallen leaders. And actually, someone, one of the holy Posts plus members made a good comment about a past episode where we were talking about these sexual falls or indiscretions, and they're like, let's remember to call it sexual abuse when it is, as often it is. Certainly in this case, it's not just a sexual failing. He was preying upon people very intentionally by the sounds of it.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. It sounded like, from what I read, the pattern was these young men would be intoxicated or passed out and find out that he has sexually assaulted them.

[Drew Dick]

Or wake up with him. Sexually assaulted. And he was the one, like, urging them to drink more.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. This is nowhere. This is nowhere near, like, some kind of consensual, immoral sexual encounter. This is the textbook definition of assault. And so I have no idea. Is there a criminal component to this thing, or is it beyond the statute of limitation? I have no idea.

[Drew Dick]

There's going to be more to this story. I will say, though, I liked his apology. You know, for what it's worth, I don't know if that was, like, you know, a PR spin thing or if that came from the heart, but it wasn't one of those, like, I know I've caused some pain. It was like, no, I'm totally messed up. I cop to it all. And this is my favorite thing. He said, I'm going to seek, you know, healing and out of the spotlight. So hopefully he's serious about that.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah.

[Drew Dick]

Because I don't think he needs a comeback tour in three years.

[Sky Jutani]

I agree. And fine. We can. We can parse the apology in his course of restoration or whatever he's on right now. But apparently from this article, this has been going on for 30 years. That's a long time. And the fact that the evangelical subculture turned a blind eye to this, even his victims turned a blind eye to this because of the lure of fame and power and impact and all that. That. That is a much deeper malady. It's not just about Michael Tate. This is a profoundly broken subculture that is fueled by fame and money and impact, and it's just gross from top to bottom. And it saddens me. Not only are there victims involved here, we don't know all the people impacted by this. We don't know all the people in Michael Tate's life that were impacted by his drug use, by his alcohol abuse, by, you know, just whatever. The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom. And I hope his victims find, you know, solace and healing and all that. I hope Michael Tate finds healing and recovery from the things he's been dealing with. But there's bigger issues here, and enough's enough. Like, if you are involved in this subculture and fueling this stuff, you just gotta walk away. It's not Worth it. It is absolutely not worth it. I expect this from secular fame and platforms and you hear about all the time in the music industry and stuff like that. This should not be happening in media that is quote unquote, safe for the whole family. It's ridiculous.

[Drew Dick]

Amen. Amen. Yep. Okay, well, that was kind of a downer to start on.

[Sky Jutani]

Thanks, Drew.

[Drew Dick]

Always count on you lifting people up.

[Sky Jutani]

Uh huh.

[Drew Dick]

The second one is an article at Christianity Today, and it is entitled Just say no to Online Church by Brad East.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, it's actually a really interesting. Yeah, it's a book review.

[Drew Dick]

I'm curious to hear your take. I think you'd probably be inclined to agree with him, but I want to talk about both sides of this. He's reviewing a book called the Hybrid Congregation. It's a brand new book by Michael Hueter, if I'm saying that correctly.

[Sky Jutani]

H U E R T E R Sounds German. Hueter.

[Drew Dick]

Huether. Yeah, I don't know, I could be getting it wrong.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah. The subtitle is A Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era.

[Drew Dick]

Yeah, and he's so hur is very bullish on online church. He says removing digital realities from our faith is in fact an amputation of an important part of our cultural experience from our life together with each other and with God. Well, it's pretty strong, right? I mean, now.

[Sky Jutani]

And he's a. He's a worship pastor, correct?

[Drew Dick]

Is that right? PhD, he's an academic slash worship pastor. And he makes the point that, you know, our lives are hybrid, online, offline, and our ministry must reflect that.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, here's a. Here's a quote that jumped out to me from his book. Digital engagement is a part of our holistic discipleship. Removing digital realities from our faith is in fact, this is an amputation of an important part of our cultural experience from our life together with each other and with God. And then the reviewer goes on to say, in other words, non hybrid church is a failure of ministry. It's lopping off limbs from the body of Christ. So Huder is arguing that a church in this time must have a digital online component of its discipleship, otherwise it's being unfaithful to the body of Christ. That's a pretty strong argument.

[Drew Dick]

That's pretty strong. But you know what, I'll tell you what, when I talk to a lot of pastors now, I've noticed a shift. They'll be like, you know, it used to be like, hey, how big is your congregation? Actually in the 80s, and this is a weird Piece of trivia for you, at least in the world. I grew up in. One big brag of pastors at conferences was, how many carpeted square feet do you have in your church? At least according to my. Seems like a weird flex, but carpeted square feet. Carpeted square feet. Yeah. We don't want. We're not interested in the gymnasium, okay?

[Sky Jutani]

That's not legit.

[Drew Dick]

Like linoleum square feet. How many carpeted square feet? But after that, it was, how many are you running on a Sunday?

[Sky Jutani]

Right?

[Drew Dick]

And people would joke, like, the farther you got away from your church and people didn't know you, the more members you could add. Because that was, you know, what you kind of built your ministry identity around. All bad, of course. Now, when I talk to pastors, though, I will hear this like, yeah, we're running 1500 on a Sunday, but we have this many thousand in our online church, right? You know, how many people are viewing it online? How many people are engaging us through our website and our various online presences?

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, can I make a connection to our previous story? Ooh, this is the same problem. It's this evangelical fixation on impact above everything, right? If I can reach more people, if I can have a bigger platform, if I can have more of an audience to spread the gospel, then that is an unmitigated good period. So if I have to turn a blind eye to sexual assault to keep that going, I'll do that. If I have to disincarnate the church and move online and do it all digital, then that must be what God wants me to do. There's no willingness to slow down and pause and ask not whether I should do it, but is it actually consistent with the faith I believe? And so this exaltation of reach and impact above all else is what gets us into this kind of ridiculousness that I think is not a bug. It's a feature of the evangelical subculture. So, yeah, I agree with the review of the book, which is incredibly hard and negative, but I think he's right.

[Drew Dick]

Well, and that's one point that Brad east makes throughout, is that the author is confusing description and prescription. I think I forget how he said it, right? He's like, okay, the world. Look, we're all online, okay? And which is true, obviously, that's indisputable. But then it doesn't necessarily follow that ministry should be geared around online engagement right now. Okay? To steel man. The other side, as they say. I mean, there is a practical element to this, right? I mean, people don't just Walk through the front door of your church, for one. Right. The way you encounter churches now is the website. I'm not going to a church if I haven't been on the website. First of all, you got to find out where they are and what time they meet.

[Sky Jutani]

Sure.

[Drew Dick]

Which churches do an amazing job of hiding, but that's a different issue. It's like the, the designers like, this website looks so awesome now. Let's hide the worship times. But that's how you encounter. I mean, it is an online world, right? Yeah. So part of me is sympathetic to the argument. Like, okay, I mean, we don't want to, you know, is this, you know, Christians 100 years ago saying that radio is sinful? Or 50 years ago saying TV? No, 70, 80 years ago saying TV is this newfangled thing that we don't want to engage with?

[Sky Jutani]

I think there's a fundamental difference. Here's the analogy I would use, and it's also flawed. But I think you're right, people. And this is not just true of churches. It's true of any institution or business or whatever. Like, people go online to research and find and discover. That's also true for like dating, right?

[Drew Dick]

Oh, yeah.

[Sky Jutani]

There used to be a stigma on finding a boyfriend or girlfriend or even your future spouse online. There's no stigma anymore. It's just the norm. People meet and find each other online all the time. That's fine for an introduction, right. Or research. But no one, no one is arguing you can actually have a marriage on the Internet.

[Drew Dick]

Give it 10 years.

[Sky Jutani]

Right? But what he is arguing is not just, hey, we need to utilize these digital tools to engage more people or help people find our community in our church. He's saying you can actually have church digitally. That's the step that goes too far. And you're right. The basic argument I took away from the review of this book is he confuses is for ought. The way east puts it, the mere fact that someone does X or thinks Y means that X or Y must be good or inevitable and thus accepted, permitted and encouraged. So he's describing accurately what's going on in digital 21st century America. But he doesn't stop long enough to go, well, is this good or right and something the church ought to emulate? He just says, this is what's happening, of course we must do it too. And that's right for sure.

[Drew Dick]

Right?

[Sky Jutani]

And there's a whole nother broken. And I've ranted about this elsewhere, but like, here's another quote from the book digital media do not carry more inherent potential for evil or less for good than a church building, a pew or a book. That might be the most naive statement I have heard in a long time. Right.

[Drew Dick]

It's read some Marshall McLuhan.

[Sky Jutani]

I mean, how many lives do we know have been ruined on the Internet that have not been ruined by reading a book or by a church building? I mean, so this is an evangelical assumption that dates back to the era of radio and television and even earlier. And the evangelical, American evangelical assumption is that mediums are neutral. Yeah, right. That it doesn't matter what medium message is communicated through. What matters is the message, not the medium. Right. And that the irony of that coming from people who believe in the incarnation of God is really weird. Like we of all people should believe the medium is the message and the medium matters. But here's the metaphor I use to explain why this is complete bs. We all believe that you can ruin your marriage on the Internet. Right? But as I said earlier, no one believes you can have a thriving, healthy marriage on the Internet. So there is a medium whose potential for destruction is far greater than its potential for construction or blessing. I'm not saying we don't ever use the Internet, but you have to be sober minded about what it can do well and the potential to do things really badly and destructively. So this argument that he says has no more inherent potential for evil than anything else is madness. Like, it's ridiculous.

[Drew Dick]

It's demonstrably untrue.

[Sky Jutani]

A church building does not facilitate.

[C]

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