The SkyePod – Jordan Raynor

Date: October 24, 2025
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Jordan Raynor

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, deeply theological exploration of how Christians can integrate faith and work beyond the often narrow confines of evangelism. Host Skye Jethani and guest Jordan Raynor discuss the pitfalls of instrumentalism in American evangelicalism, the “faith and work” movement, and Raynor’s new book, Five Mere Christians, profiling ordinary Christians living out profound faith through everyday vocations. Along the way, they dive into topics of purpose, vocation, eschatology, and biblical visions of masculinity—using stories like Fred Rogers’ radical compassion to illustrate how the Gospel permeates all facets of work and life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Faith and Work Integration

• Initial Perceptions and Personal Journey

  • Raynor grew up understanding “faith and work” as strictly about evangelism, ethics, and excellence.
  • Felt pressure in church to abandon "secular" entrepreneurial work for ministry, until a mentor challenged him:

    “Why do you think you have to plant a church to do ministry? Don't you get that your work is ministry?” – Jordan Raynor’s mentor (03:10)

  • Reading Genesis 1-2 reframed his view: God revealed first as a worker, calling all people to create and cultivate, not just pastors.

• The Pitfalls on All Sides

  • Both Jethani and Raynor warn: work can be reduced to a mere instrument for evangelism or elevated to idolatry.

    “There's pitfalls on all sides because it can become instrumental, it can become idolatrous...” – Skye Jethani (04:16)

2. Eschatology, Vocation, and the Value of Creation

• Why God’s Purpose for Creation Shapes Everything
  • Misunderstandings about heaven, earth, and redemption lead to warped views of work’s worth:

    “If this earth is indeed our temporary home and the present heaven is our permanent home, then matter doesn’t matter to God.” – Jordan Raynor (05:38) “But if...this earth will one day be our perfect and permanent home...then matter has to matter deeply to God.” – Jordan Raynor (06:38)

  • Proper eschatology means all of life—including “secular” work—matters and is redeemable.

3. The Danger of Instrumentalism in Evangelicalism

• How People Are Viewed as Tools

  • Jethani critiques the prevalence of viewing people only for their usefulness (money, influence, time) in ministry:

    “People are tools. And it's partly because I, as a pastor, was taught to view myself that way. I'm an instrument of God's work ... because we believe God views us instrumentally, therefore we view others instrumentally.” – Skye Jethani (07:58)

  • Story: Pressure in campus ministry to target “influential” athletes, professors, while overlooking others—contrasted with the Kingdom value of the overlooked (09:39-09:44).

    "[The] 50 something year old townie woman who cleaned the bathrooms ... that's the kingdom of God." – Skye Jethani (09:44)

• Countercultural Kingdom Values

  “Where the first will be last. The last will be first.” – Skye Jethani (09:49)

4. Real Faith-and-Work Integration: Stories from the Margins

• Panel Story & Ms. Josephina’s Example (10:06-12:34)
  • Raynor contrasts shallow answers from CEOs (e.g., not swearing at work) to Ms. Josephina—a warehouse worker showing deep spiritual leadership, advocacy, and prayer at $12 an hour:

    “I mean they're...only paying me 12 bucks an hour, but I feel like I get paid 50 bucks an hour.” – Ms. Josephina (11:55) “She taught me more about faith and work integration than most people I've studied over the last few years.” – Jordan Raynor (12:29)

5. Introducing "Five Mere Christians": Ordinary Lives, Gospel Impact

• Book Overview & Biographical Profiles (12:34–15:10)
  • Five diverse figures: Fred Rogers, Fannie Lou Hamer, Ole Kirk Christiansen (LEGO founder), Hannah More, C.S. Lewis
  • Focus on “binge-worthy biographies that show you how to glorify God in your work.”
  • Segue to exploring Fred Rogers especially as a model of humanity and masculinity rooted in the Gospel.

6. Fred Rogers: Biblical Masculinity & True Power

• Contrasting Cultural Stereotypes

  • Contemporary “manosphere” masculinity: aggression, insensitivity, use of power to exploit.
  • Fred Rogers: gentle, kind, secure in God’s love, radically compassionate.

    “What is true biblical godly manhood look like? ... Jesus.” – Jordan Raynor (15:10) "I would argue true humanness looks like Jesus." – Skye Jethani (15:24)

  • Bible offers a variety of “masculinities,” yet the model is Christlikeness—regardless of gender.

• Fred Rogers’ Radical Compassion (16:34–18:44)

  • Story: Rogers calls, encourages, visits Beth Usher—a sick child who found solace in his show—demonstrating love beyond duty.

    “Who in the world does this? Who can be this successful by the world’s standards and this successful by God's standards and show this radical compassion?” – Jordan Raynor (19:00) "Fred didn’t need anything from you or from me. ... Because he was filled up with the love of God." – Rogers’ coworker (19:16)

• True Strength as Gentle Security

  “Nobody would look at Fred Rogers and go, that's a powerful man. ... But his power was a gentle power.” – Skye Jethani (20:29)

• Alternative Authority and Role Models

  • Rather than chest-thumping, exploitative types, Rogers displayed the “power to bless, not to oppress.”

7. Implications for Younger Generations & Church Witness

• Challenges of the Modern Masculinity Crisis

  • Internet figures like Andrew Tate dominate, while Christ-like models are ignored.

    “...the kind of strength and masculinity and power that Fred had is nowhere on the radar ... It's all the chest thumping ... the Andrew Tate kind of awfulness.” – Skye Jethani (22:56)

• Missed Opportunities for the Church

  • Despite disheartening trends, Raynor believes there remains a latent hunger for goodness-in-Christ, though Rogers may seem “less relatable” than more “exciting” figures like C.S. Lewis or entrepreneurs (24:11).

8. Transition to Other Profiles: LEGO Founder Ole Kirk Christiansen

• Segue to the story of Christiansen, who repeatedly rebuilt after adversity and wove faith into the creative joy of LEGO.
  (Conversation cut off here for non-subscribers.)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Don’t you get that your work is ministry?” – Raynor’s Mentor (03:10)
• “If this earth...will one day be our perfect and permanent home...then matter has to matter deeply to God.” – Raynor (06:38)
• “People are tools...because we believe God views us instrumentally, therefore we view others instrumentally.” – Jethani (07:58)
• “She taught me more about faith and work integration than most people I've studied over the last few years.” – Raynor (12:29)
• “I would argue true humanness looks like Jesus.” – Jethani (15:24)
• “Fred didn’t need anything from you or from me. ... Because he was filled up with the love of God.” – Rogers’ coworker (19:16)
• “His power was a gentle power. ... but he had this steel in him that was rooted in a security of knowing who he is and not needing the world's affirmation.” – Jethani (20:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:10 – Raynor’s mentor reframes “ministry” as including entrepreneurship
• 05:16 – Jethani: Eschatology shapes all of Christian work
• 07:58 – Jethani: Instrumentalism in church leadership
• 09:44 – “That’s the kingdom of God”: Story of overlooked faith
• 11:55 – Ms. Josephina story: Deep integration of faith and everyday work
• 15:10 – What does biblical masculinity/humanness look like?
• 17:19 – Rogers’ story of compassion for Beth Usher
• 19:16 – The source of Rogers’ strength: Secure in God’s love
• 22:55 – The challenge and opportunity of reaching young men today
• 24:11 – Will Fred Rogers’ gentleness be winsome in today’s context?
• 25:53 – Beginning the story of LEGO’s Ole Kirk Christiansen

Tone & Style

The conversation is thoughtful, approachable, and self-critical—marked by humor, honest confession, and deep theological reflection. Both speakers maintain warmth, vulnerability, and a pastorally-minded tone, inviting listeners to a fuller vision of Christian calling.

Summary Takeaway

The episode invites listeners to imagine Christian vocation not as a mere tool for evangelism, nor as something secondary to “real” ministry, but as sacred participation in God’s ongoing creation and redemption. By rooting daily work, compassion, and even masculinity in the Gospel rather than cultural expectations, ordinary Christians reflect Christ’s kingdom everywhere.