The SkyePod: Power & Politics with Mike Erre

Summary

Podcast Summary: The SkyePod – "Power & Politics with Mike Erie"

Release Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Mike Erie
Podcast Title: The SkyePod

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Power & Politics with Mike Erie," host Skye Jethani engages in a profound dialogue with Mike Erie, a recurring guest known for his insights on Christian engagement with culture and politics. The conversation delves into how Christians should navigate the complex landscape of political power, emphasizing the importance of the church's role in fostering justice without succumbing to political idolatry or apathy.

Overview of Mike Erie's Perspective

Mike Erie articulates a nuanced view of Christian involvement in politics, rooted in New Testament teachings. He posits that Jesus’ proclamation of the Kingdom of God was inherently political, advocating for a society grounded in justice, equity, and mutual respect. Erie distinguishes between "power over" — characterized by coercion and force — and "power under," which is based on mutual listening and hospitality. He asserts that the church's primary responsibility is internal transformation, which in turn exerts a "magnetic force on the world around it" (05:10).

Role of the Church in Politics

Erie emphasizes that the church should embody the Kingdom of God by being a community of justice and righteousness. He argues that the New Testament does not prescribe specific political actions but calls for the church to be a transformative presence in society. This transformation is not achieved through direct political manipulation but through living out Christian values that naturally influence the surrounding culture.

“The church's responsibility isn't to transform the world, it's to be itself transformed.” — Mike Erie (05:10)

Political Participation: Voting and Beyond

A significant portion of the discussion centers on political participation, particularly voting. Skye raises the question of why Erie advocates for voting as a form of participation rather than abstaining entirely from political processes. Erie responds by highlighting the necessity of engaging in governance to restrain evil and promote human flourishing, consistent with a commitment to justice.

“Government can restrain evil. So, as people who are committed to justice, it doesn't seem a big step to say, hey, let's participate in the partisan political process of American politics, but do so only as exiles.” — Mike Erie (09:47)

However, Erie cautions against allowing partisanship to become an idolatry, where political affiliation overshadows allegiance to the Kingdom of God. He advocates for Christians to vote not out of political allegiance but as an expression of their commitment to justice and protection of the marginalized.

Historical Context: Apathy vs. Idolatry

The conversation shifts to the historical tendencies of the American church, where Erie and Skye agree that political apathy has often been a more persistent issue than political idolatry. They reference periods such as the 19th century's response to slavery and the Civil Rights Movement, where many white Christian communities exhibited either apathy or complicity rather than active resistance against injustice.

“Political apathy has marked more of the American church story than political idolatry, which we are currently seeing.” — Skye Jethani (13:45)

Erie concurs, highlighting that both apathy and idolatry stem from misunderstandings about the church's true nature as a public, socially just organization.

Practical Implications and Hypotheticals

To explore practical applications of their theology, Skye presents a hypothetical scenario involving an imaginary country, Nashvillistan, a pagan monarchy with no Christian influence. He asks Erie how Christians should engage with the ruling powers, especially when invited to take on governmental roles to instill Christian values.

Erie responds with caution, arguing that holding positions of political power often leads to corruption, even with the best intentions. He differentiates between advisory roles, which may be beneficial, and holding authoritative positions, which carry significant risks of compromising Christian ethics.

“I think history is replete with those sorts of examples where people who claim the name of Christ go within the best of intentions and become corrupted along the way.” — Mike Erie (23:30)

Skye further probes the practicality of Christians in roles such as police officers or judges, questioning the difference between individual participation in existing structures versus taking over governmental departments. Erie maintains that while individual Christians can and should serve in various capacities, institutional control by the church is fraught with dangers.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a mutual agreement on the paramount importance of the church embodying justice and righteousness. Both Skye and Erie advocate for Christians to focus on internal transformation and community engagement rather than seeking political power as a means to enact change. They caution against both political apathy and idolatry, urging believers to participate thoughtfully and ethically in political processes to promote genuine justice and flourishing.

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Notable Quotes:

• “The church's responsibility isn't to transform the world, it's to be itself transformed.” — Mike Erie (05:10)

• “Government can restrain evil. So, as people who are committed to justice, it doesn't seem a big step to say, hey, let's participate in the partisan political process of American politics, but do so only as exiles.” — Mike Erie (09:47)

• “Political apathy has marked more of the American church story than political idolatry, which we are currently seeing.” — Skye Jethani (13:45)

• “I think history is replete with those sorts of examples where people who claim the name of Christ go within the best of intentions and become corrupted along the way.” — Mike Erie (23:30)

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Final Thoughts

"The SkyePod: Power & Politics with Mike Erie" offers a thoughtful exploration of Christian engagement in politics, balancing the need for justice with warnings against the inherent dangers of political power. For listeners seeking to understand how to navigate the intersection of faith and governance, this episode provides valuable insights grounded in theological reflection and historical context.

Transcript

[Sky Gitani]

But what happens when the powers listen? Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Skypod, brought to you by Holy Post Media. I'm Sky Gitani. I am joined today by a very familiar face, voice, whatever you prefer. Mike Erie, welcome back.

[Mike Erie]

The voice is certainly preferred. Absolutely. Compared to the face. But yes, thank you, sky, for having me. I love to be with you and so I'm excited for this.

[Sky Gitani]

All right. Well, you. You are very familiar to the Holy Post audience and hopefully do a lot of people who also listen to you and Tim Stafford on the Voxology podcast. A lot of people know we're friends. We go way back to college. We've had you on many times to talk about things. You have been doing a series on Exile on Voxology, which is really about how. How do Christians think about engaging culture or the political dynamics of our culture. And it's been a fantastic series. And I've indirectly appeared a couple of times on these episodes because I've listened and then I've text messaged you various lengths of messages with questions or pushback or whatever, and you've graciously shared some of those comments on the show and then responded to them on your show. But I felt like we needed to just get together and actually talk through some of this stuff.

[Mike Erie]

I'm so in, Sky.

[Sky Gitani]

All right, well, I appreciate you being so. And before we jump into the dynamics and the questions that I've been mulling about listening to that series, can you take a few minutes and for those who haven't listened.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

Just summarize the whole thing, but give your thesis like the working model that you are addressing here, the problem you're addressing and what you believe the. The New Testament is telling us as Christians, the appropriate response should be yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Mike Erie]

So it's reflecting on the fact that Jesus entered a world in which there was a culture war and there were various options for him to participate in dealing with the question of what do we do about Rome. So we've got. And you all know this, but you've got the collaborators, we've got the isolators, we've got the violent overthrowers. And Jesus, of course, did none of those things. Instead, he proclaimed something called the Kingdom of God, which part? One of our little thesis is that that is a political, social, public reality. That's not just accepting Jesus in my heart. That's like he's a real king over a real kingdom. And all of that is understood in political, economic, and very socially, you know, justice kind of oriented terms. The second point is that when Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God, he differentiated it from the kingdoms of the world in one very specific way, namely the use of coercive power. And so along with David Fitch and others, we distinguish between power over people, which is the power of expertise or threat or violence or power under which is the power of mutual listening, weakness, hospitality. And how Jesus brought his kingdom, of course, was through power under, exemplified by the cross. And so when Paul, as one who himself has been shaped by the cross shaped ethic of Jesus, launches churches into the ancient Mediterranean world, the primary call he's giving to them is to be faithful. And that the object of his letters isn't the world's transformation, but rather the church's transformation, that as the church grows more faithful to Christ, it exerts a magnetic force on the world around it. And so the church's responsibility isn't to transform the world, it's to be itself transformed. And as it's transformed, it takes on a very similar priestly role that Israel was to take upon itself when it obeyed Torah, namely to show the goodness of the character of its God in tangible like flesh and blood situations. So when it comes to political identities in our world, we've been arguing that Jesus would not grab a hold of any of the political levers that were available in his world and ours, but rather he would invite the church to be the church. And part of being the church, of course, is because we live in a democracy, exercising a privilege and a right to tell the kingdoms of the world how they should use their coercive power, but that our fundamental identity is that of exile, namely that we are people who have no political home among the options and among the nations, and therefore can sit with the primary focus on our faithfulness and then a secondary focus on influencing culture, but only through the fact that we're faithful people. Does that kind of summarize it.

[Sky Gitani]

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good job. And I think, I think everything you just said there, I'm on board with. Yeah, yeah, and, and I, and as I've listened. Go ahead.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah, but, but cashing it out is where it gets. What does it mean? I mean it's easy to say, yeah, yeah, be the church, right? What does that mean?

[Sky Gitani]

So exactly, I think your analysis of the New Testament and Jesus posture towards the realities of his culture and day, Paul's posture towards the realities of Rome and the churches of his day, I think your analysis of all that stuff, I'm like, amen, dead on. Don't disagree whatsoever. It is the cashing out, like what is. How do you take that then?

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

And apply it to Christians living in the 21st century in the United States in a democratic republic, in our circumstances? And that's where I. The exile motif, as it worked in the first century, to use Tim Gombas's word, I think there's a lot of improvisation that needs to go on in the way that gets worked out in. In 20.

[Mike Erie]

Define what you mean by that, because I think that's a really important theological concept.

[Sky Gitani]

Well, I mean, we do this all the time. For example, the New Testament says nothing about churches having their own buildings.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

Because that was inconceivable to Paul in the first century that a church would have its own building. They met in homes. Right, right. So do you take that reality of the first century going, oh, churches only met in homes, and do you make that prescriptive for today that churches should only ever meet in homes? Or do you go, well, wait a minute, we now live in a world and a time and a place where churches have the freedom to own property and create a building and a meeting space or other facilities for the ministries that they're engaged in. Is it wrong for a church to have a building because it's never mentioned in the New Testament, or is it a question of improvisation, of what's best for the mission of this group of Christians in this community? And it might mean meeting in homes, it might mean having a building, but I would argue the New Testament is agnostic on that point, and we need wisdom in how to do that. Similarly, we don't live in ancient Rome. We live in modern America. And it brings with it a whole host of dynamics that I think requires a level of wisdom and application. Foreign. Let's get rolling with, with this question. I've heard you say, and you just said it now, but I heard you say numerous times on. On this series that, you know, of course Christians should vote.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

Why. Why not say, let's not vote, let's not participate in the governance of our Rome, but just make the church community, this countercultural vision of God's kingdom. So why in your theological argument, why is voting in that form of participation in politics?

[Mike Erie]

Okay, yeah, I think that's a great question. The theological imagination of the New Testament seems to be recognizing the church as its own unique political entity and as uniquely like Paul will say citizens of heaven. And he employs that phrase to the Philippian Christians who Roman citizenship was greatly valued. But there is this clear counter isolationist thrust all throughout the New Testament as well. Right. Jesus, I pray that they would not be separate from the world. He didn't go join John the Baptist in the wilderness. And for Paul, the churches that he was planting were in flourishing cultural moments. And a lot of the pastoral issues he was then addressing were because the churches were so wrapped up in a contextual culture. So eating meat, sacrifice to idols would only be an issue if you're out walking this, you know, the city, going.

[Sky Gitani]

Into the markets and buying meat from.

[Mike Erie]

Right, absolutely. And Paul clearly allows for a role for government to limit and restrict evil. Government cannot redeem government, government cannot bring the kingdom, but government can restrain evil. And so, as people who are committed to justice, as people are committed to the spread of shalom and human flourishing everywhere, it doesn't seem a big step to say, hey, let's participate in the partisan political process of American politics, but do so only as exiles. And that's the catch, right? Because loads of Christians vote. But it's the voting that then raises up the specter of idolatry, where I become a partisan advocate instead of an advocate for the kingdom.

[Sky Gitani]

So I. And this is again, where we totally agree, there is a, A, an idolatry that's going on in America right now where many Christians are putting so much of their hope and identity in their partisanship. Right. And yeah, we would all agree that. That's all agree that's a problem. That's a significant problem. But what, what I'm. What I, I'm struggling with some of what you're talking about in your emphasis on the church as being the primary place where the. We are called to engage in our political identity.

[Mike Erie]

Activity.

[Sky Gitani]

Activity is. Then to what degree should a Christian participate beyond the church in political activity? And you talk about restraining evil, but why not? If voting's okay, could. Is running for office. Okay.

[Mike Erie]

I can imagine scenarios where it would be great. And I can imagine scenarios would be really unhealthy. I, I think the, the issue isn't do we need Christian people in roles all over society to leaven society? I think the answer is absolutely yes. It's what. What do we think we can accomplish in those roles and through the voting process? That's where I, that's where I think the New Testament steps in and says, hey, y'all, only power under and only the kingdom can bring about the redemption that we want. So I think of your video on Roe vs Wade. It was a fantastic video. And one of the main arguments you, you sat upon was that, hey, in terms of policies, man, Democratic policies seem to have more effect on the abortion rates than Republican policies. But I would have argued, and you did entertain this briefly, that had the church really been the church and the pro life kind of advocate community, that the heat and fire around that political debate would have lessened greatly if the church were actually caring for people who were wrestling with abortion. And so in that instance, that you could look at and say, well, what should be the church's political activity? I would argue the most effective means of cultural change is by the church being the church. It's not voting and it's not putting people in positions of power. Although, fine, hallelujah. But it wasn't the overturning of Roe v. Wade that was the big victory everyone thought it was. And just imagine all the money and agitation that went towards Roe. Had that money and agitation been towards community advocacy for unwed mothers and, and, you know, maternity leave and all the things, I think it would have just been a radically different discussion. So, yeah, vote away. Absolutely. But what we don't do is think that the vote, the voting is going to change the way culture works from a systemic level. Like we can, we can enforce laws, and I'm grateful for traffic laws, for instance, but traffic laws can't change human hearts. Right. Only embodied communities filled with the spirit can do that.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay, So I think one of this connects is we're coming at this from maybe worrying about different errors. So the, the, the error, and they're both legitimate, like the error that you seem to be working against is this political idolatry, which is very, very present in our world right now. 100% agree. Too many people are putting their hope in political activism as a redemptive power in the world, and it's not right. I agree. But when you look at the broader scope of at least American history, I would argue that the, the more persistent error that the American church, let me be more specific, the white evangelical church has made in America has not been political idolatry. It has been political apathy.

[Mike Erie]

Okay, so, so let's explore, let's explore that.

[Sky Gitani]

So what I mean, what I mean by that is when you go back into the 19th century, there were a lot of white Christian communities that were saying, we don't have to deal with this question of slavery because that's political. That's the world's way of doing it. We just need to love our brothers and sisters in our own community.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

During a century of racial terrorism under Jim Crow, there were a lot of white Christians who said, it's not our problem. And they actually either were apathetic towards the government or actually endorsing a government that was actively persecuting black people in America, then you get to the civil rights movement.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

And there were a lot of white Christians who are saying, you know what? To black leaders. You guys need to just be patient. You just need to focus on your own communities and churches. You need to not be marching in Selma for the vote. You need to not be marching in Washington, D.C. and speaking against the powers and authorities. Just focus on your own communities and your own churches, and in time, it'll all be okay. That kind of political apathy has marked more of the American church story than political idolatry, which we are currently seeing. I agree 100% with that. So when I hear you going, hey, we need to make the church the primary focus of our political engagement in the world and not make it. I agree you don't put all your hope in Washington, D.C. or in changing laws, but it's also a convenient excuse for people who don't want to deal with the necessary injustices that are happening in the world. Because I just want to wash my hands. And it's about the church. It's not about changing political.

[Mike Erie]

So, oh, so good sky. And I agree with everything you're saying. For me, that's why. That's why I want to emphasize the church is a community of justice. The church is social justice. Because so much of this gets traced back to a very thin, hollow version of the gospel, which is just me, my heart, and Jesus saving and forgiving me. And it gets tied into a church then that just exists so that I can grow in my individual relationship with God. So for both errors, the apathy and the idolatry, I think, stem from the misunderstanding of what the church actually is. To the apathetic ones, we would say, no, this is a public, economic, political, very. I mean, like, socially just organization that. That seeks to embody in itself the work it wants to see in the world. So Christians should have been at the forefront and Christian communities should have been at the forefront if they weren't around issues like race and slavery and all of those sorts of things. Couldn't agree more. But.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay, let me. Let me just pause you there for a second because you certainly do not see that anywhere in the New Testament.

[Mike Erie]

What's that?

[Sky Gitani]

That the church is at the forefront of any kind of social or political.

[Mike Erie]

Oh, I totally disagree. So this. So let's talk about first of what we see in the New Testament. So we see. We see the rich sharing with the poor.

[Sky Gitani]

No, no, no, I agree. Within the community of the church. You see that 100.

[Mike Erie]

Hold on. But hold on, hold on. Let's, let's. Let's work that out. You see the rich giving to the poor. You know, Rodney Stark, who we both have read and adore, talks about how the church communities performed public benefactions. So, you know, when Peter talks about live such good lives among the pagans, he's not talking about being nice and moral. He's talking about public benefactions that are for the flourishing of others. The, the red. The, the, the. The scooping up of kids that have been left for exposure. The, the being present in plague ravaged cities. Absolutely. To me, to me, the church. The church was the church in that it embodied in itself what it wanted to see in the world. And as an outflow of that, it ab. It had radical impact on the culture around it. But it did so from a position underneath, not a position over. So.

[Sky Gitani]

And it was because I agree 100% again with all of that, but is there ever. Is it ever appropriate for a Christian, or even, dare I say a Christian community to accept a role of power over.

[Mike Erie]

See, I would say no.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay. So I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that.

[Mike Erie]

So let me just try to be consistent. But I really think that's the thrust of the New Testament.

[Sky Gitani]

So let me, Let me. Let's paint a hypothetical scenario.

[Mike Erie]

Oh, did I walk into a trap?

[Sky Gitani]

No, not necessarily.

[Mike Erie]

Just because.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay. I'm gonna give you a hypothetical scenario that kind of moves in stages. And I'm just curious to hear your response to these videos.

[Mike Erie]

I love it. Like a lamb to the slaughter.

[Sky Gitani]

Imagine there's an. An imaginary country called Nashvillistan.

[Mike Erie]

Oh, it's true.

[Sky Gitani]

It's a totally pagan place.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

No Christians in any power or authority whatsoever. It's a monarchy. There's a king.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

Over national.

[Mike Erie]

The law.

[Sky Gitani]

The laws and customs are completely out of phase with God's kingdom.

[Mike Erie]

See where this is headed?

[Sky Gitani]

Right. There's just. There's no Christian influence in the, in the halls of power whatsoever in Nashville.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

But there's this small and growing subculture of Christians in that place who are gathering together. What should. And I think this is a softball one. What should their posture be towards the world around them in Nashvillistan?

[Mike Erie]

Love and service.

[Sky Gitani]

Right. And they should inhabit or incarnate the reality of the kingdom of God within their Christian community.

[Mike Erie]

Yep. And whatever. Whatever just society they want to see in the world, they should embody first in the church.

[Sky Gitani]

Agree. So Nashvillistan is collapsing. Right. Unjust systems are kind of self defeating. They're realizing it's not. We're not. This, this whole thing's not working well.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

And the king of Nashvilleistan recognizes that there's this little group, this little community within our country that they, they got something good going. Like they're, they don't have any poor people among them because they're sharing and things are operating well. And it's just, it's a different thing. And so he comes to you, Mike Erie, as one of the elders or leaders of this Christian community, and he says, hey, would you come and meet with me regularly and advise me as the king of Nashvillistan about what you're doing and what that might mean for what I'm doing as I rule over Nashvillistan? Would you be willing to meet with him? What would you do if you had that invitation?

[Mike Erie]

I think it depends. But I think that one of the very problematic arcs that scripture itself records is the church's co. Option by the king for, you know, employment for non redemptive purposes. So it would depend on the one hand, if the issue is, hey, would you, would you help us take care of folks that are slipping through the net or would you help us provide for, you know, whatever, some, some marginalized tribe in Nashvilleistan? Well, of course. But hey, I want. I'd love your opinion on how I should wield coercive power. Then. We're getting a little. I think we're getting a little tricky. I. So I'm not sure, I'm not sure I would, I would under certain circumstances, but in other circumstances, I don't, I don't think so.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay, well then let's, let's go a step deeper. Let's say you did start meeting with this king and you started explaining to him the way of Jesus and the kingdom of Jesus and.

[Mike Erie]

Yes.

[Sky Gitani]

And started talking to him about, you know, yes, you do. You have the power of the sword. Kind of a Romans 13 thing, but you need to use that power justly and fairly equitably. And he's listening. He's genuinely listening to all this. And finally, the king is so impressed with your, Your wisdom and, and, and the, the clear fruit of the way that the Christian community has lived in its own little subculture.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

That he says to you, listen, Mike, would you be willing to, to take over the. I don't know, pick your department, the, the education schools of. Of Nashville, Stan. Or the, the judicial branch of. Of Nashvilleistan? The Police, the courts, and.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

And inculcate these ideas into those parts of the government? Or even better, Mike, would you make sure that the people of influence in those parts of our government are your people? Are these Christian people that carry these values? Because I genuinely think that they would bring goodness into those parts of Nashvillistan if they had more governance and authority over them. What would you say to that?

[Mike Erie]

Absolutely not.

[Sky Gitani]

Really?

[Mike Erie]

Yeah. I mean, it is the nature of power over to corrupt. I can't think of many examples where Christians sat in such positions of authority with the best of intentions and were themselves not corrupted. I think history is replete with those sorts of examples. If it were an advisory capacity, a wisdom capacity, fantastic. But to actually hold that power and to make sure, even that language, to make sure our Christians are in positions of influence, man, I'd. I'd. I'd flee. Absolutely. Because of the nature of political power.

[Sky Gitani]

So let me. I mean, let's get super practical here.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

Do you think a Christian can be a police officer?

[Mike Erie]

Sure.

[Sky Gitani]

What's the difference?

[Mike Erie]

The difference is this. And, And I mean, just biographically, my dad was a police officer.

[Sky Gitani]

I think I remember that.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah. So. So would the New Testament look at. And I'm getting there. Let me just start.

[Sky Gitani]

Okay.

[Mike Erie]

On the way back. Right. Because. Because there, There were moments in church history where all violent professions were outlawed, and I think that's very consistent to the ethic that Jesus gives. But could you be. Could you be a police officer? Yeah, I've been around police officers that do great good in the world, and I've been around police officers that do great harm in the world. Would I. Would I want a Christian in that position, all things being equal? Well, probably, I guess. But I don't. I don't know what that means. If. Go ahead.

[Sky Gitani]

So I, I agree. I mean, I have no problem with a Christian being a police officer. Can a. Can a Christian be a judge? Sure. Can a Christian. Can a Christian be on the Supreme Court?

[Mike Erie]

We evidently have some. Sure.

[Sky Gitani]

But that's. That's getting my point. So what's the difference between that and the King of Nashvillistan saying, hey, Mike, can you head up the Department of Education?

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

What's the difference?

[Mike Erie]

Well, for me. And again, I can't speak for Christians and police officers or judges or whatever the difference is what do I think those roles can accomplish? I. I don't think Christian judges in the same way we. Roe v. Wade was the big goal of pro life. Okay, great. We did it. We have Christian judges. That doesn't necessarily make society more just they're more redemptive or more Christian. In fact, it runs the risk of making the church less Christian if it's not super careful.

[Sky Gitani]

Mike, don't you think if we had. And when I say Christian, I mean a genuine follower of Jesus? Okay, let's just, you know, don't you think if we had genuine followers of Jesus in places of state, local government authority during Jim Crow, it would have had a very positive impact on our black brothers and sisters?

[Mike Erie]

Oh, I don't doubt that it might have.

[Sky Gitani]

I'm not saying it's redemptive to the world or creation.

[Mike Erie]

No. Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

But it's certainly going to be way better for people on the margins who are persecuted, who are hungry, who are uneducated, who are, you know. So, yeah, that, that's my question is I don't disagree that we ought to in incarnate these realities of the kingdom in the church first and foremost. Absolutely. Amen.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

But in a culture in which Christians are able to pursue or be invited into these roles of influence.

[Mike Erie]

Yeah.

[Sky Gitani]

I don't think it's a bad idea for wise, godly, mature Christians to. To steer those areas of cultural power and influence. I don't, I don't think we seek them. I don't think we have a right to them. I don't think we view them as a way of bringing the kingdom of God on earth. But I think we do view them as a way of loving our neighbors.

[Mike Erie]

And therefore all of those disclaimers that you just gave, all those disclaimers I would agree with and say what percentage of people could actually sit in those positions and live. Live that redemptively in them. And I would say it's a fraction. Instead, what we have are just example after example. People who claim the name of Christ go within the best of intentions and become corrupted along the way. So if all of those disclaimers were true, of course I would want wise, mature people who knew they were not bringing the kingdom on earth, but rather were doing their best to restrain evil in a way that promoted flourishing, sought the good of the city, and protected the rights of the marginalized. Of course. So I just.

[Sky Gitani]

You're not disagreeing in principle, you're disagreeing in practice.

[Mike Erie]

Agreed. I'm just saying that the warning seems to be. And I could be over overreaching, or I'm. I'm perfectly willing to be wrong. My big point is when we think about politics, that, that the New Testament would have us think about our church first and foremost, that's that is. That is the place where our politics should be fleshed out.

[Sky Gitani]

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