The SkyePod - Ryan Burge

Summary

The SkyePod - Ryan Burge

Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: Ryan Burge, Political Science Professor at Eastern Illinois University
Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The SkyePod, host Skye Jethani engages in an insightful conversation with Ryan Burge, a political science professor renowned for his expertise in religious statistics and information. The discussion delves deep into the burgeoning trend of non-denominationalism in the United States, exploring its causes, regional impacts, and broader societal implications.

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Guest Background

Ryan Burge is a prominent figure in religious statistics, frequently quoted in major media outlets like The New York Times and CNN. His ability to analyze and interpret complex religious trends has made him a sought-after commentator in academic and public circles.

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The Rise of Non-Denominationalism

Personal Anecdote: Identifying Non-Denominational Entities

Burge opens the discussion with a relatable story about misidentifying a non-denominational establishment as a church:

Ryan Burge [03:31]: "Ascend. That's all it said. And my wife, God love my wife... She thought it was a church."

This anecdote sets the stage for understanding the ambiguous nature of non-denominational entities, often blending into mainstream commercial settings.

Statistical Trends and Surpassing Traditional Denominations

Burge highlights a significant shift in religious affiliations:

Ryan Burge [05:18]: "Non denominational churches surpassed the United Methodist Church about 20 years ago in attendance, and they surpassed the Southern Baptist Convention about 15 years ago."

He emphasizes that non-denominationalism is now the largest category beyond Roman Catholicism in the U.S., marking a pivotal change in the religious landscape.

Regional Distribution of Non-Denominational Churches

The conversation moves to the geographical spread of non-denominational churches:

Ryan Burge [09:06]: "Florida is like dead center for all kinds of things... most rapidly growing counties... outer edge."_

He notes that growth is concentrated in states experiencing population booms, such as Florida, the Carolinas, Ohio, California, and the Pacific Northwest, aligning with areas of significant demographic changes.

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Reasons Behind the Growth

Anti-Institutionalism

Burge attributes the rise of non-denominational churches to a broader anti-institutional sentiment:

Ryan Burge [11:26]: "If I could use one word, it would be anti institutionalism."

He discusses how modern congregants favor local accountability and independence over hierarchical denominational structures.

Seeker-Sensitive Movement and Organizational Models

Tracing the roots back to the 1980s, Burge discusses the influence of leaders like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels:

Ryan Burge [12:54]: "They knocked on doors in those neighborhoods and communities said what do you want in church... that has been replicated by non denominationals."

This bottom-up approach, focusing on community needs rather than strict doctrinal adherence, has been pivotal in the growth of non-denominational congregations.

Accountability and Local Structure

The emphasis on local governance in non-denominational churches fosters a sense of ownership and direct accountability among members:

Ryan Burge [15:30]: "If you're part of a denomination, a chunk of that goes to a head office... But if you're part of a non-denom, your money stays local."

This transparency contrasts with denominational models, where funds are often centralized and loosely managed.

Political Independence Parallel

Drawing parallels with political trends, Burge connects the rise of non-denominationalism to increasing political independence:

Ryan Burge [16:45]: "Growing number of people call themselves nothing in particular when it comes to religion... they're also more likely to say they're politically independent."

This reflects a broader societal shift towards individualism and skepticism of large institutions.

Sociological Over Theological Factors

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the primacy of sociological factors over doctrinal ones in church growth:

Ryan Burge [22:45]: "It's more sociological than theological... People are thinking about the social aspect... not just how well you preach."

Burge argues that the success of non-denominational churches lies in their ability to create engaging, community-focused environments rather than strictly adhering to doctrinal teachings.

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Implications and Concerns

Impact on Doctrine and Discipleship

While non-denominational churches thrive, there are concerns about the depth of theological teaching:

Ryan Burge [25:18]: "The sermon stays very surface level... Discipleship does not."

This could lead to a lack of deep theological understanding among congregants, as emphasis is placed on social engagement over doctrinal education.

Engagement with Demographics

Burge highlights that younger generations and new populations in growing areas are more inclined towards non-denominationalism, potentially reshaping religious affiliations for decades to come.

Sociopolitical Consequences

The decline in institutional religious affiliations parallels declining political party affiliations, which Burge suggests could have significant implications for democratic engagement and societal cohesion.

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Conclusion

Ryan Burge provides a nuanced analysis of the rise of non-denominational churches in the United States, attributing it to anti-institutional sentiments, effective community engagement, and a focus on local accountability. While this trend signifies a shift towards more personalized and socially engaging religious experiences, it also raises questions about theological depth and the future of institutional religious structures. The conversation underscores the complex interplay between societal trends and religious affiliations, offering valuable insights for both religious leaders and sociologists.

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Notable Quotes

• Ryan Burge [01:37]: "It's about as cool as it gets, I feel like."
• Ryan Burge [05:26]: "Every one of those churches wants to be unique, but they're using the same tropes over and over again."
• Ryan Burge [12:54]: "God told me to plant a church and here I am."
• Ryan Burge [16:45]: "They're the least politically engaged, quote unquote religious group in America today."
• Ryan Burge [22:53]: "The number one reason why people left church is because they moved."

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This comprehensive discussion between Skye Jethani and Ryan Burge offers valuable perspectives on the evolving landscape of American Christianity, highlighting the shift towards non-denominationalism and its broader societal implications.

Transcript

[Sky Jutani]

I think we should get married because you're just so normal. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Sky Pod. I'm Sky Jutani. This podcast is brought to you by Holy Post Media. And I'm joined this week by Holy Post pundit, political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and all around guru of religious statistics and information, Ryan Burge. Hi Ryan.

[Ryan Burge]

Thanks so much. Hey, buddy, how are you?

[Sky Jutani]

I'm good. I always enjoy our conversations. You're super busy right now doing book edits, so appreciate you carving out time to talk to me about interesting stuff.

[Ryan Burge]

You're welcome.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, you are all over the media. Have you been doing any media lately in this post election, inauguration, early Trump weeks stuff, or is it calmed down?

[Ryan Burge]

It just, it goes like in spurts where I'll talk to like four reporters in one day, then not for like two weeks and then like, you know, little drips and drabs. I was, it's always fun when you show up in the New York Times. You don't even know it. That happened to me last week. A writer quoted me in something and I thought there was one. There was one week last year where I was in the New York Times. Three different articles in one week. And I was like, well, that's, that's pretty cool. All on disparate things too. And I didn't even know about one of them. So that's, it's just fun to be like in the quote unquote paper of record. It means like the work you're doing actually, like people read it and care about it and it's like affecting the discourse. And as an academic, that's about as cool as it gets, I feel like.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, well, that's why we appreciate having you here, that you, you know, you're on big time things like the New York Times, cnn, all over the place. But you come back to the Holy Post to disseminate.

[Ryan Burge]

Always, always back for you, sky, anytime.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, well, I'm bringing you back because you wrote an article actually a while ago, back in July of 2023 that I think you reposted or something caught my attention again. And it's a topic that I find really interesting and one that I know affects a lot of our listeners and I think has implications for a lot of us that we don't really consider and that is the rise of non denominationalism in the U.S. i love the, the subtitle on your piece is after the Nuns. There's no bigger story than the Nones. Clever. Correct. This is like that. This is why you get quoted in the New York Times because you're not just smart, you're clever.

[Ryan Burge]

GPT wrote that for me.

[Sky Jutani]

Scott, come on.

[Ryan Burge]

Say that's not really. Not that one. Yeah, GBT has helped me write headlines before, but definitely not that one. That was all in this brain right here.

[Sky Jutani]

Well, when it's that clever, it can't be AI. I just refuse to believe it. Okay, so you start the piece with this charming story about you and your wife driving someplace, and you see a sign for some kind of establishment. Can you recall that story and how it unfolded? Because I just think this is so America circa 2020. 2025.

[Ryan Burge]

Yeah. So my wife and I were driving to St. Louis, I think, for a baseball game or something. And we go through, you know, go through rural America, then through like the suburbs and then into the city. And there was this kind of warehouse looking building on the left side of the interstate. And it had this kind of nondescript sign that kind of looked vaguely something or other. And it said Ascend on it. A, S, C, E, N, D. Ascend. That's all it said. And my wife, God love my wife, she's a Roman Catholic and religiously interested for sure, but not like at the level that we are. She's like, is that a church?

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're being unfair to your wife. I don't care. Roman Catholic or not, super religious or not, her instincts are absolutely correct.

[Ryan Burge]

Oh, 100%.

[Sky Jutani]

When you see a warehouse with a nondescript name that just says Ascend, I honestly, my first assumption would be that that's probably a church.

[Ryan Burge]

And the reason I say she's your own Catholic, she doesn't swim in these waters of like hip non denominational churches. She's just like adjacent to all that stuff because I'm in those waters and living in all that world. So she's like, I think to me she's like the ideal person to like talk to religion about because she's like an interested person, but not like both feet in, like me. So she kind of gives me like a nice barometer of like what normal people think about religion. Like normal interested people think about religion. I think everyone needs someone like that.

[Sky Jutani]

Is that how you wooed her? Did you say, listen, I think we should get married because you're just so normal. And I need normal God, we, in.

[Ryan Burge]

My marriage, we definitely need someone who's not. Who's not like me. I can't. I have a hard time putting up with myself sometimes. I never have a hard Time putting up with her. So we kind of like work that way. But the building looked like a warehouse sky, you know, like it looked like it was like a converted commercial outlet right next to the interstate. And she thought it was a church. And I thought to myself, I wonder if that is a church, because I'm not 100% sure it was or wasn't. So I go Google it, you know, the name of the Ascend. And then the town we were in was called Fairview Heights. So she googles it. Come to find out they do not sell Jesus. They in fact sell marijuana. Because Illinois is a state in which we've legalized retail marijuana about two or three years ago. And there's been all these different little shops cropping up. There's one in my town called Thrive, which could also, you know, double as a marijuana dispensary. But I think that's like the classic, like what non denoms are is like they're these one named ambiguous, slightly aspirational name like Rise or bridge.

[Sky Jutani]

Hold on, I got something for you. Are you familiar with the website Name my church?

[Ryan Burge]

Oh, my gosh. Do not.

[Sky Jutani]

No, no, no. You guys got to. Everyone has to check this out. Not right now because you're listening or driving or walking the dog or something. But it. It's just Name my church. And when you get to the website, I could show it, turn my computer around for you. It's a completely blank white page. And. And the top just says Name my church.

[Ryan Burge]

Okay.

[Sky Jutani]

And then you. There's one button on the whole page and you just hit this button and every time you hit it, it gives you another church name. That. And I don't know how this is just randomly generated from some kind of. So I just hit it and the first thing that comes up is arise.

[Ryan Burge]

There you go.

[Sky Jutani]

Right now I'm keep hitting it. Celebrate.

[Ryan Burge]

Go ahead.

[Sky Jutani]

Celebrate.

[Ryan Burge]

Okay, that's. Yeah, I've seen one like that before.

[Sky Jutani]

Exalt Ebenezer Church. Sometimes they get a little bit, you know, churchier, but this is great. Exalt.

[Ryan Burge]

Exalt. I love it.

[Sky Jutani]

Three Glories Church.

[Ryan Burge]

What are the three Glories Sky?

[Sky Jutani]

I don't know. Encounter Valley Church.

[Ryan Burge]

Oh, can I tell you a fun story about this? You and I did not rehearse this ahead of time. I actually have a post on my stub stack running in two weeks where I created a church named Generator.

[Sky Jutani]

That's what this is, essentially. Yeah.

[Ryan Burge]

I scraped all the names of association of related churches Churches. Those are like arc churches is what they're called. There's like 350 of them. And their website's super easy to grab. So I just grabbed all those names and wrote a quick algorithm to basically generate a name. And you can pick between two and five words and keep hitting generate. And it'll give you just a bunch of random words together. And a lot of them are like valley. A lot of them describe, like geography, like river, valley, you know, things like that. Highlands is a big one in their world. But it's so funny, like, every one of those churches wants to be unique, but they're actually not being unique because they're using the same tropes over and over again every other church in that same genre has used. So it all becomes a. It becomes a trope at this point.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, yeah, I'll do a couple. I'll do a couple more just for entertainment value. And again, I have no idea what's going to pop up here.

[Ryan Burge]

Okay.

[Sky Jutani]

Glorious Church. This one's a little bit of a mouthful. West Elevation of Zion. Harvest. Church of Discovery.

[Ryan Burge]

That one's good because it's like mashing all these, like different kind of genres together into one.

[Sky Jutani]

You know, that church has a bank account available to one person. Love Church.

[Ryan Burge]

So there's actually I Heart Church. There's a church in West Virginia called I Heart Church. So there you go.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, how about this? Velocity bridge of Connection.

[Ryan Burge]

Church.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, we'll end on this one. Triumph.

[Ryan Burge]

Oh, that's good. Just Triumph. That's a one word just like you did it. We Triumph. Gosh. There's one called enjoy Church in St. Louis.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay. All right, that's, that's, that's making a claim. That's a promise right there that they better.

[Ryan Burge]

What if I did not enjoy church?

[Sky Jutani]

So let's talk about the numbers. Just the data that you report on in here. Yeah. You talk about how, and I looked at your graphs of basically non denominational churches surpassed the United Methodist Church about 20 years ago in attendance, and they surpassed the Southern Baptist convention about 15 years ago. And by far the largest, at least non Roman Catholic identification in the country now is non denominational. And you looked at the regional spread of non denominational churches. What did, what did you find there? And what surprised you?

[Ryan Burge]

This. Florida. Florida is like. Florida is like dead center for all kinds of things. Things both good and bad, I think in America. And sometimes what's funny is a lot of things in Florida might be good or might be bad just depending on the context of it. And I think this is a good example. Like if you look at the most rapidly growing counties when it comes to non denoms in the last 10 years, it's almost all of Florida and it's like the outer edge. If it touches the ocean in Florida, it's grown 20% on the non denoms. But you also see like it's pushing up like in the eastern seaboard, through the Carolinas especially and then even up into Ohio, which I was really sort of struck by because we think of like Ohio as like a declining state, population wise. Rust belt, not a lot of activity and things are going on, but there's a ton of non denoms. But also out west there's like, you know, California is like epicenter for non denoms it feels like. And then up the coast, the Pacific Northwest is actually kind of a hot spot. So places like Portland, Seattle, in those surrounding areas, there's a ton of non denoms there. But they really are sort of tracking where population is is going to. I think that's like probably the strongest predictor of non denoms is like, okay, you need new churches in growing areas. We know that denominations are not doing a great job of planting new churches just because they don't have the financial resources to do so. But guess who does. It's non denominational church planters who have these networks that fund them and they're going to go where the people are. And that's what I would do. I would go to like Charlotte or Phoenix or you know, Southern California or somewhere. There's people at. That's where non denoms are. That's how I describe it to people. Go where population growth is and you're going to find a whole lot of bridge and journey and triumph and all the things we just mentioned.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, so there's two different pieces there. One is growing population, but then the second thing is the realization that non denominational churches are doing better as startups. Oh yeah. Than denominational churches. So you can't have just one piece of that. You have to have both of them. Let's talk about the why. Yeah, explain this the best you can. Anyway, what I mean, I have a list of my thoughts on why this is exploding. And it's not a new phenomenon. We've been seeing this for throughout my life certainly, but it's really accelerated. What do you think are the primary reasons behind not churches planting in areas where there's population growth? That's pretty obvious. But why are non denominational churches growing way more than everyone else?

[Ryan Burge]

If I could use one word, it would be anti institutionalism. I Think to me and actually I have a post, I just wrote a post trying to dig into institutional trust and non denominationals. And so for those that, you know, who aren't, who haven't swam in these waters for a long time, the non denom trend really started like in the 80s, probably with like, I know Rick Warren Saddleback was SBC, but it wasn't really like he went out of his way to like not be too attached to the sbc. There's Willow Creek with Bill Hybels in the Chicago suburbs. And those two guys really created a model that a lot of other churches wanted to follow and did over the next 20 or 30 years. And that was called the seeker sensitive movement. Okay. Which is basically the idea like people don't want to be offended by church. So take out the stained glass, take out the crosses, don't make it super religious, kind of make it a little more corporate, a little slicker. And those are what non denoms picked up on in the 90s and the 2000s. But here's the best part about Hybels and Warren. Those guys got their start not because the denomination told them where to go. They literally looked at a map, goes where are people at? They knocked on doors in those neighborhoods and communities said what do you want in church? And then gave the people what they wanted in church and had these incredibly successful organizational runs for 30 years. That to me, the bottom upness of those two stories has been replicated 100, 1000, 10,000 times by non denominationals. I don't need credentials, I don't need hierarchy. I don't need anyone to give me permission. God told me to plant a church and here I am.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, so I agree with you. We're going to come back to the megachurch seeker thing in a minute. But yeah, that explains why a Bill Hybels or a Rick Warren, a church leader. If a church leader or potential church leader is anti institutional, then they're going to bypass denominational structures to just go plant a church on their own. But what about the churchgoer themselves? It doesn't make a ton of sense to me that if Americans are increasingly anti institutional that they would commit themselves to a megachurch of 20 or 30,000 people. That seems awfully institutional for an anti institutional community or population.

[Ryan Burge]

Here's two things they got going for them. One is they're new and people like new things. That's just how growth begets growth. The more you kind of look at the literature and understand how churches grow, it is really Hard to take a church that's been declining for 30 years and make it grow again. It's way easier to start from scratch. And all of a sudden you had 20 last Sunday, now you got 30, now you got 50, and the buzz starts building and people want, there's growth. And guess what? A lot of these churches are less than 10 years old and started with 12 people and now are 1500, 2000 people. So I think the growth thing is what really people are driven to, but I think what keeps them there, and I think this is really, really important is when you drop your $100 bill in the collection plate on Sunday, where does it go? If you're part of a denomination, a chunk of that goes to a head office with a bunch of quote unquote bureaucrats who you don't see, don't know and don't feel accountable to where your money is going. But if I drop $100 bill in my local non denom church, I know it's going to stay in my church walls or in my community at the worst. And the guys who decide where it goes are sitting next to me in the pews or in that pulpit every Sunday morning. So I have direct accountability for where my money goes. I think that is really the magic of these non denoms is saying like, no, we're all right here. There's nothing somewhere else. No one else tells us what to do. No one else spends our money for us. We say where our money goes. And I think that's. If you think about the political movement we're in right now, especially in the last two weeks with Donald Trump, right, It's like we're going to slash and burn all these nameless, faceless, bureaucrat, deep state people. I think that that feeling, that emotion has also been going on in churches for years. We don't need all the hierarchy. We just need to help people, serve people and build our local church. That's exactly what non denoms do. And I think that's why they have, they're having sustained success. The growth begets growth. What keeps people there is that accountability structure being so local and not national or international.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, so I'm glad you bring up kind of the political parallels here because I looked up some data from Gallup and you probably are familiar with this. Back in 1990, the American population was basically split into thirds. A third registered as Democrats, a third registered as Republicans, and a third is independent. In 2023, which is the latest numbers I could find, it was almost 50% of Americans registered as independent and around 25 to 27% registered as Republican and Democrat. So we've seen, just as we've seen a rise of non denominational commitment in religious affiliation, there's this massive growth in independence in the political realm in a sense of neither one of these two political party options really represent me. Or maybe it's, you know, a lot of people still lean progressive or lean conservative, but they don't actually want to align themselves with one of these parties. Is that all part of the same manifestation of this anti institutional bias that I'm not going to commit to some big denomination that I have no idea what they're up to and I'm not going to commit to some political party that's doing bonkers things here and there. I just want my independence. And so an independent church also feels like part of that strain of, of where just the American ethos is right now.

[Ryan Burge]

I wrote a post called Dropping out of Everything like maybe last year and it was like the idea of there's a growing number of people called themselves nothing in particular when it comes to religion. They're not atheists, they're not agnostic because that's like a label with all the baggage that goes with that. Right. And they're not Protestants or Catholics either because again, label, baggage, all that stuff they're literally saying to the religion question. Meh. And if you look at the people who say they're nothing in particular, they're much more likely to say they're politically independent in their political ideology is something else. Not, not liberal, not conservative, not moderate, something else. They're the least politically engaged, quote unquote religious group in America today. I think it's that idea of like I am with. And also they had the lowest level of education too, so they're dropping out of every sort of aspect of American society. I think the non denom thing is just one click away from that. Right. It's like institutions are way over on this side. Dropping out of everything is way over on that side. What's the middle path right now? What's the median path? It's joining a non denominational church because it's, it's not dropping out of everything, but it's still dropping out of most institutions.

[Sky Jutani]

Okay, so this I not to poke at your profession or industry, but could it be just that a lot of these people that are being surveyed don't know what the hell they're talking about? Meaning they don't know, they don't know anything about politics, they don't know anything about denominations. They don't know anything about religion. And they just go, yeah, no of the above, or independent, whatever. And I'm thinking back to when I was a seminary student. My wife and I were newlyweds. I was a seminary student. There was a shopping mall not far from our house that we'd go to with some regularity. And they had one of these, like, consumer survey outposts in the mall. And we were dirt poor, and occasionally we would stop in there because you could. If you fit some criteria, you could get paid to do a survey. And one day I was there, and they were willing to pay me, I don't remember, 25 or $50 or something like, amazing for a seminary student, if I would do a survey about tequila. All right? And I knew nothing about tequila at all. But I did the survey. But all throughout the survey, as a person's asking me questions, I'm just making up the answers, or I'm clicking none of the above or whatever, because I just want the $25 so I can, you know, support my religious habit at seminary a little bit longer. But is that what's going on here is people just don't know, and so they answer, yeah, none, or I'm independent, or my spirituality doesn't fit these things. Is it really an accurate depiction of where people are, or is it a revelation of their ignorance?

[Ryan Burge]

Both. I really do think it's both. And I will say this. We do validation checks on these surveys. So, like, it's not like people are just, like, mashing buttons. There's certain questions, like, you have to put strongly agree on this one, otherwise we kick you out of the survey. So, like, we're making sure you're paying attention to what it is. And also, there's ways to do other validation checks. Like, for instance, we ask you when you were born and then ask when you had kids. So to, like, see if those dates, like, line up and make any sort of. Of logical sense. So I. But are there. Is there nonsense that gets through? Oh, gosh, yes. Like, I think we all admit that, like, no survey is 100% sure. But, like, here's the thing. The survey that I use a lot has been going on for 15 years now. And if you see it independently happening at the same rate, you know, with the same type of people across 15 independent surveys of each other, now you've got some cross validation, right? Like, so, for instance, I wrote a post about the nuns have stopped rising, but I waited till I had four different data sources that all pointed to the same Conclusion. Because it's like, are they all four going to be wrong in the exact same way? Probably not. So there's ways. Now I will say this. I do a lot of my work is like, why do you leave religion? Why do you leave the church? Why are you not going to church? And my co authors and I talk about this a lot is I don't think people think about that for 30 seconds a year. When I think about it every 30 seconds.

[Sky Jutani]

Right, right.

[Ryan Burge]

So we're trying to like lasso a ghost, you know what I mean? Like trying to like put. Put jello in a box. It does not want to go in a box. So I think sometimes in our desire to try to explain things, we can over. We can over categorize people. But I do think there's definitely a movement in American society of people who just don't care, don't know, don't want to know, are dropping out. And I think by the way, they're incredibly problematic, like for a bunch of reasons. Not just from a gospel perspective, but just from a sociological, democratic, little d. Democratic perspective. We want people to feel at least somewhat engaged in democracy response to their needs and wants. And there's a growing number of people who don't feel that way. And that leads to some really bad outcomes.

[Sky Jutani]

Right. I think we've talked about that in some other conversations we've had with her here on the Holy Post about how it's bad for democracy to have people disengage and not care and be apathetic. Okay, so we've got the kind of. The general rise of anti institutionalism in American life. And that applies then to churches. And I think you've made a decent case that people value independent congregations more than denominationally affiliated ones. Here's another one I want to float another reason why this might be happening. The rise of the non denoms. People just don't care about doctrine much anymore. And there's been a lot of surveys. I'm sure you've seen them from, from Lifeway, from Legionnaires, others that just show how truly theologically and biblically ignorant even churchgoing Christians are. So in the past you picked a denomination or you picked a church because you had some understanding of the doctrinal uniqueness of being Baptist or being Methodist or being Lutheran or being Presbyterian or whatever the tradition might be. And you move to a new town, you go to that same denomination of church because you believe in the doctrine or teachings. And when I was a local church pastor and I occasionally had meetings with people who would leave our church to go somewhere else, or meetings with new people who came into our church. Those conversations never focused on doctrine. No one cared what you believed or thought. That's not why they came to the church. Is that a broad view that I'm expressing, or am I projecting out of my experience here?

[Ryan Burge]

There's an old saying in grad school. If you have a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.

[Sky Jutani]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Ryan Burge]

So if you're a theologian and people leave your church, the first thing your brain is gonna say is, well, it's gotta be a doctrine thing. It's gotta be a thought. It's gotta be theology.

[Sky Jutani]

Right. No way.

[Ryan Burge]

But, you know, the. And I think. And I really don't want to, like, drink my own Kool Aid too much, but I think the answer almost always is more sociological than it is theological. You know, in the great De Churching with Michael Graham and Jim Davis, we wrote that book. The number one reason why people left church is because they moved. You know, like, it's almost always sociological. It's not like I had a. Most people don't think about doctrine as much as you do, Sky. They just. They. You don't. They're thinking about, I'm going to where my friends want to go or where my kids are going with the youth group, and they have activities, and I want to be there. Those are the number one. And that's why I've been. My biggest drumbeat recently is pastors start thinking about the social aspect of your church just a little bit, and how that plays into your growth or decline. It's not just how well you preach and how much you pray and how, you know, doctrinally sound you are. It's. Are you creating a good environment socially for the people in the pews? And if you aren't, they're going to find another place.

[Sky Jutani]

Yeah, okay. I. Maybe we're just coming at this from different experiences. But, like, when I was at Christianity Today, and I travel a lot around the country, meet with all kinds of pastors and see different kinds of churches, what I generally found were churches that were very focused on the sociological realities of their congregation. We want to make this a great place for families. We want to make it a great place for kids and teenagers, and we want people to get help with their marriages and whatever issues they're having in their lives and what you didn't see or churches that were really teaching doctrine or theology or the Bible much at all, and to validate what you've been saying, they were also Generally growing when they focus on those sociological things rather than the theological ones. My point is when someone moves to a new community, leaves a church and moves to a new community, they're more likely to pick that new church. Not ever even bothering to look at the doctrinal statement of the church for sure, right? They are looking at do my kids like it here? Where do my colleagues go? Where are the people in the neighborhood go? Whatever, how much do I like the music? Do I enjoy the personality of the preacher? And are they, you know, an appropriate avatar for me to worship God through? And it has very little to do with whatever the teaching is. Whereas I don't know how many generations back you'd need to go. If someone moved into a new community, they would go to the Methodist church because they were Methodists or the Baptist church because they were Baptist or whatever. And the doctrine is what mattered more than the personality of the guy in the pulpit or how great the youth ministry was.

[Ryan Burge]

You know, this goes back to the growth begets growth though thing too, right? Like if you have a growing church that's got youth ministries and children's ministries and women's ministries and all these cool ministries, you don't really agree with the doctrine of. The doctrine is a little fuzzy, which for a lot of those churches, by the way, it is very fuzzy on purpose. It's like vaguely. It's like in the neighborhood in the direction of evangelical, but definitely not like Southern Baptist. They would pick that church over a church they theologically agree with but is smaller and seems to be declining and doesn't have as many ministries and opportunities because at the end of the day, here's what they'll think the sermon's what, 20 or 30 minutes? I can grit my. And how many sermons are they actually going to listen to and actually actively disagree with theologically in a year? Maybe one, maybe two. And a lot of those evangelical churches, they don't get deep into the weeds of transubstantiation or once saved, always saved, or you know, way down the rabbit hole of theology. It stays very surface level.

[Sky Jutani]

And people who want that end up getting that online. They go to YouTube or some other, you know, crackpot self taught theologian to tell them what the truth is.

[Ryan Burge]

Exactly. They don't get discipleship from the pulpit. Let's be honest here, discipleship does not. And even in like a doctrinally sound church, it doesn't really come from the pulpit that much because there's not enough.

[Sky Jutani]

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