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The Smart Communications Podcast
Episode 169: How can you plan an inclusive and welcoming project?
00:28:39
Get tips to create welcoming and inclusive spaces, bring more voices into the room, and lead projects that engage your team and community.
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- [00:03]
Josh
This is the Smart Communications Smart Communications Smart Communications Podcast.
- [00:07]
Big Duck Intro
Developing the voices Developing the voices of determined nonprofits brought to you by Big Duck.
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Farah
Welcome to the Smart Communications Podcast. This is Farah, trumpeter, co director and worker owner at Big Duck. Today we're going to ask the question, how can you plan an inclusive and welcoming project? I am delighted to be joined by Brenda and Josh, two of our account managers at Big Duck. This is their first time on our podcast, but hopefully not the last. Let me tell you a little bit about Brenda and Josh. Josh Kelly. They them has previously managed strategic communications programs for both electoral and advocacy campaigns across the country. Most of their work has been focused on queer liberation and abortion access, but they have experience working thoughtfully, intentionally and intersectionally in a variety of issue area contexts. Josh holds a BA in theater from Pace University in New York and they've also done postgraduate research in Critical Gender studies at Central European University in Vienna, Austria. Josh, welcome to the show.
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Josh
Thank you so much. So excited to be here.
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Farah
And Brenda Perez, she her EA brings experience in logistics planning and community organizing to the team. Before joining Big Duck, Brenda led organizations advancing immigrant rights, labor organizing and civic participation. She organized actions, trainings and conferences with workers, faith leaders, students and political leaders. Brenda has a Master's in Divinity from Vanderbilt University where she wrote her thesis on joyful resistance. Brenda is also a worker, owner and the secretary of Big Duck's board of directors. Brenda, welcome to the show.
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Brenda
Excited to be here.
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Farah
So you both have very interesting and eclectic backgrounds. You bring experience as both activists and organizers to your role as account managers. And I want to just start there. Can you share a bit about how your experiences shape your approach to setting goals, creating experiences for our clients, and working closely with our team on branding and communications projects. How do these amazing backgrounds in organizing and engagement really inform your approach to project and account management? Josh, want to start us off?
- [02:22]
Josh
Absolutely. I love this question. The first thing that immediately came to my mind is I'm very outcome oriented. I think that's sort of the hallmark of advocacy and electoral work in general. Right, right. Is that we have a goal and the whole process is structured in order to meet that goal. And it's often a very time sensitive and inflexible deadline. And so I think this sort of outcome oriented approach is something that I like to bring to my projects here at Big Duck. As well as focusing on what does authentic, thoughtful and effective engagement look like when you're talking to voters or supporters in an organizing context, they know if you're being truthful, they Know, if you're just talking to them because you don't care about them, you just want them to do something for you, versus like actually building meaningful relationships with people. And I think that approach is also something I really like to bring to the work at Big Duck as well.
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Farah
How about you, Brenda?
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Brenda
Yeah, I also love this question. For me, there's a few things. One, we have really fantastic clients, so it's easy to work with clients who are doing really great work. And I always try to focus on the mission and the vision and the people on the ground who is ultimately going to be most impacted by us doing really great work. And how do we make sure that we put egos aside, we get all of our tasks done, take advantage of all the resources, of all of the opportunities to make that work as successful as possible? I think those are the kinds of things that really influence me, how I approach my role in account management and project management. And it's also just really great to connect with people who are doing good work in all parts of our country. So that's also just kind of a little bonus. It fulfills the people side of me of just connecting with people who are doing that work on the ground.
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Farah
Love it. Now, earlier this year, I had the pleasure of learning from Brenda and Josh on this very topic we're going to talk about on today's podcast. That conversation was at NTEN's Nonprofit Technology Conference. And before we get into some of the great ideas and topics and insights that Brenda and Josh shared in that, I'm wondering if one or both of you could talk about what led you to develop content around planning inclusive and welcoming projects. Why do nonprofits need to think about this? And really what spurred the whole idea in the first place? Brenda, want to start us off?
- [04:41]
Brenda
Yeah. Well, this was a fun project to work on, to be transparent, and it was one of the first projects that Josh and I got to work on together. And honestly, what spurred this for me is that both Josh and I share an organizing background in different types of spaces. And there are a lot of practices in community organizing that seem a bit standard, but when you take them out of those places are a little bit new or push people into vulnerability, into growing vulnerability. For me, it was important to like, okay, let's actually bring these tools that have been shared with us, and how do we share them with other parts of our communities that are trying to do good work? We just got together and wrote them out and shared them out the best ways that we could. And there's a really Important part. For me, that kind of guides a lot of my work in community organizing projects that I've been a part of and here at Big Duck as well, that it's not just about what we do, but it's also about how we do it. So it's like, how are we bringing people along in this project? How are we making space? How are we inviting people to participate? So it's not just getting this thing done so we can move on or say we did it, but it's also engaging people throughout it.
- [05:57]
Josh
I would also add, for me personally, I always like to say that DEI is a verb, not a noun. And sort of playing with this theme that Brenda brought up of like, doing. You know, so many people sit here and think, I want to be inclusive, but I don't know how. What do I do? And we talk about it, and we talk about it and we talk about it. And I really wanted to create a space where we could share tips and tools, things that people can take, and easily start implementing right now. Right. I think sometimes DEI feels like this thing we put in the future of, like, one day will be great, but there are things that you can start doing right now that can advance these goals. And so sort of shifting out of a noun and into verb territory and sort of focusing more on action and less on talk. Right. Because sometimes action is the hardest part, but the best way to get started is to just get started. So hopefully some of these tips that we'll be sharing today will inspire all of you listening to go out and really start putting things into action right now.
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Farah
Well, let's get into it. So in the workshop, you started the whole session by asking participants to reflect and share what makes them feel welcomed. And you did that with an adorable gif. I prefer gif, not gif. We can debate that later. Now, I love how that set the stage. And so I can't help but wonder what makes you feel welcomed. So whichever one of you would like to start, I'd love to know what makes you feel welcomed.
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Brenda
Yes. I just want to start by talking about the technical aspect of the gif. I say gif, but we wanted to start this session asking people a question. Our session was only 30 minutes long, and we were going to ask some kind of, like, vulnerable questions and push people into considering some practices. And by starting with the question, we were opening it up and setting the stage that this is going to be a conversation. So we didn't want to have a presentation where it's like 25 minutes in and Then it's like, okay, now give us some questions and let us hear from you about what are some of the big things you're struggling with. We really wanted to start with, hey, let's hear from you about what actually works for you. And we got some great responses and it set the tone. I definitely encourage facilitators. When you're working with groups of people and you want to get into a heavy topic, start with a small question at the beginning that everybody can answer so that everybody has a moment to practice using their voice. And for this particular instance, we used a tool called slido, so people kind of chatted it in, nobody raised their hand, Nobody had to speak in front of a new audience. So also think about the scale of participation and how do you work people through that journey. So for me personally, what makes me feel welcomed or when I'm stepping into a new space is I like to think of what's happening around me. Is there music in the background? Is it music that I know? Is it music from my culture? Is it diverse music? Or is there food there? What kind of food? Is it one type of dominant culture food? Or is it like a diversity of snacks? And then, of course, I look for things like, is there an agenda that is transparent and posted on the wall of what are we hoping to do and who the people are that are gathering? I constantly walk into new spaces. Those are the kinds of cues or clues that I look out for that would make me feel like, okay, this is a safer space for somebody who is brand new. Like, I know what's going to happen. I'm not going to be surprised. And somebody put a lot of thought and intention behind setting up the space. Yeah.
- [09:21]
Farah
I'm curious, Josh, for you, whether it's an in person space or a virtual space, what makes you feel most welcome?
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Josh
I would say it's a couple of things. I know I'm always looking for laughter and a sense of humor. I think that pairs really nicely with what Brenda was saying about music. But often our work can be very serious. Our world is very serious. And when I'm with a new group of people, what puts me at ease is knowing that we're human, right? We can come together, we can still laugh, be joyful. And it's sort of Brenda's thesis topic, joyful resistance. Is there joy in the room? And then I would also say some, maybe more practical things, as often one of the only trans non binary people in any given room. Are we talking about pronouns? Are people offering their pronouns before I even have to ask. I'm looking for things like land acknowledgments, less so, maybe in the virtual space, but in any time we're meeting, whether it's in person or virtual, we are on land. Right. And I think making those acknowledgments help ground us in sort of where we are in time and place and make me feel like, okay, my comrades are in the room, we're all on the same page here. And then also this one I think, depends on the person. I really appreciate when folks sort of name irrelevant current events. Right? We are all a group of people who are all probably doom scrolling before the meeting starts or hopefully taking a five minute break before the meeting starts. But you know, it is what it is. And I think too like just bringing that humanity. For me it's about, you know, performativity versus realness. Right. Is this a room that feels like I'm just going to have to be like this on robot, focused only on work? Right. I'm not a full human. Or is this a room where I can just be myself and be real and be present with like what is. And I think, you know, acknowledging what's going on outside of the room, both historically in the context of a land acknowledgement, but also present current events for me, always puts me at ease and makes me feel ready to sort of step up and engage and be vulnerable.
- [11:08]
Farah
Well, thank you both for that. I'm going to have to think about how this translates to a podcast environment, but that will be my homework for a later day. Now, in the content itself, you Both put together 10 practices people can follow to manage projects with inclusivity in mind. And we don't have time today to get into all 10 of those, but I'm wondering if you could both share one or two of those practices and how following that shapes the experience staff, board, community members and others have on a project. Josh, you want to lead us off this time?
- [11:41]
Josh
Absolutely. So the first one I want to talk about is that virtual accessibility is the new normal. Some of us here at Big Duck, we are an entirely remote team, but some folks that we work with do have an office. And whether it's a hybrid work environment or a fully in person environment, we're all on a different reality there. But I think the more that you can create hybrid environments as the new normal, the better. And that's for a couple of reasons. Some folks might feel safe and comfortable meeting in person. For folks that you work with who may be disabled or immunocompromised, that is probably not the case, particularly if you want to make sure you're including diverse voices, particularly voices that historically are often left out of the conversation. Virtual accessibility sort of has to be your new normal. And it's also virtual accessibility benefits everyone. A lot of my colleagues here at Big Duck have kids. And you know what? I don't have kids, but I do know I used to be a babysitter. Things happen and you think you're going to be at that in person meeting, but then you know you're getting that call from the school nurse and you are no longer coming to that in person meeting. So virtual accessibility ultimately benefits everyone. Folks that might be feeling a little bit sick, but don't want to necessarily take a sick day, but they're just not feeling good enough to be physically present, but they can still hop on the computer, no problem. So creating an environment where no matter who needs it, it's always there. And even if nobody needs it, you never know when someone will. So always being set up for virtual assistance is such a great best practice. And then there's a couple of other things to consider too. Like, do you have access to an ASL interpreter? I think a lot of people are moving into a space where they're really good about creating opportunities for folks to request accommodations. But I think the more that you can just be set up to just always having those accommodations available, the better. Right. It's this concept of this is made for you. You are not an exception. You don't have to go through the emotional exhaustion of perpetual self advocacy. We've already made this for you. We already have an ASL interpreter on tap. That's something I see a lot in Portland, Oregon, where I live, showing up to events, theater events, comedy shows, and there's just an ASL interpreter there. Nobody had to ask for it. Even exploring things like masks in person, is that a protocol that you want to set? Pronoun name tags? That's something you start to see more and more of. So the more that you're able to create environments, even with translators, if you're engaging with folks who maybe their first language is in English, do you have access to translators as needed? And so those are things that you want to make sure that yes, you can offer them if people ask. But even better, like two point is having those things already present and available for whoever might need them without having to ask for it. And so I think for me, those are the some of the big takeaways I'd love to share with folks.
- [14:18]
Farah
Thank you. How about you, Brenda?
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Brenda
Yes. So there's three that I really kind of want to talk about in our short time together. And one is really think about metrics. And I know that sometimes Di and measuring or like having metrics seem to kind of contradict each other. And there are some things that you cannot measure absolutely. But, but start with what you can. There's a few places that you can look for that you really want to bring some numbers into it sometimes. If you don't have a DEI plan or a very specific statement around inclusivity or these types of practices in your organization or business, think about some strategic plans. Think about your values. If you do have a DEI commitment, pull from there. What kind of commitments? If you're working on a project, can you make to demographics? Can you identify the dominant voice in your organization? What does that look like? And how are we going to try to mitigate that dominant voice from taking up the full space? So as you review these things, it's important to just like set some metrics from the start. And it's a tough challenge. And it could be metrics that maybe you don't share with the project team. Maybe your organization isn't ready for that, or maybe it is. You can function here as an individual or as a, as a big project manager, but kind of think about how you want to have these metrics for success, for inclusivity and welcoming practices into your project. So the other one I want to talk about is access. At Big Duck, we work on so big scale projects like branding or renaming organizations. And some of these are really important and feel really like emotional. We want to hold these really tight to our chest and there are some projects I absolutely should hold close. But as you advance your project and as you are like working with your teams and departments and other stakeholders, are there ways that you can in open up access? Is there something that you can set up that could decentralize data a little bit or even just share updates of how your project is progressing? If you're going through a renaming, can you share the main milestones of when your project is going to launch to when we're going to start considering names, or when this survey or input moment is going to happen? Are there ways that you can figure out how to decentralize data so people can just look at something or find an update without having to ask a specific person? Because we're not trying to give people more work? There's plenty of work in the world for everybody. Really think about how do you decentralize that data how do you open up access? Another thing is to continuously make the invitation. When we're inviting people, we're creating welcoming and inclusive practices. We're basically recruiting people. We're recruiting people that we typically haven't worked with or organizations hasn't worked with or doesn't have a good history or whatever, all the reasons that exist in the world. You have to make the invitation multiple times, not give up at that first time and be like, well, we sent them two invites, an email and something in the mail and they didn't come. You know, it's like, well, that's not really going to work. If you're building relationships and wanting to make people feel welcome and inclusive, you have to think about what are the ways that you can continue to make that invite a part of your system, part of like your outreach system or your growth system. But think about it as a system and not just like a one time thing. Okay? And the last thing I want to talk about is build flexibility, which is a really hard one, right? When we work on projects, we have timelines, we have budgets, we have outcomes, and we want to get there and we want to be respectful of all the resources that we have on hand. But if there's a possibility, try to build a little bit of a reserve budget. What if something comes up? What if a new opportunity happens? If you're doing research on a project, what if there's a new focus group that is uncovered through part of the process that you want to invite in and you're like, well, here's why I reserved this little pocket of money so that we can invest at this moment. Can you build a little bit of space in the timeline? I know we all want our projects to be done yesterday, but is there a little bit of wiggle room or, you know, just. It could be a couple of days, it could be a couple of weeks of what you can add in there just to make space for opportunities. Because as we're creating welcoming and inclusive spaces, we're bringing more people and more voices into the room. And so we don't want to just have new people come in and be like, well, here's the roadmap. And on you go. You're either on board or you're not. We're bringing them in to be part of it, to co create, you know, to be part of the leadership as well. So yeah, so build flexibility when you can.
- [18:57]
Josh
I just wanted to jump in there too, because, Brenda, I really like what you're saying about flexibility. And that reminds me of the Importance of planning for multiple ways for people to process and participate. You want the process to be flexible, but you also want the ways that people can engage to be flexible. And just to put a finer point on Slido, you know, this is not a sponsor post from Slido, but we do love the tool. Slido allows people to submit questions anonymously. So for our Q and A in the session, for example, there were some people who were comfortable raising their hands and speaking out loud publicly. But that's not how everybody likes to participate, Right? So folks are able to submit anonymous questions on their phone that we could bring into the space. So finding multiple ways to participate if people are on zoom, you know, maybe cameras on, cameras off. Right. People have different preferences there. So creating that flexibility in those contexts as well, so that you can ensure people are able to be as honest and authentic as they can. If you're having a meeting and someone's boss is in the room, it might be a little bit more challenging for them to be as honest as they might want to be. But if you have that anonymous slido, they will probably feel a little bit more brave. So I just wanted to put a finer point on that flexibility because I think that principle really extends to so much of what inclusivity work can look like.
- [20:11]
Farah
Yeah, thank you both. And I wanted to just acknowledge that you both have also contributed some great content to our blog. And if folks are trying to dig into some of these topics, Josh wrote a great piece in 2023 called Want to be, don't leave Virtual meetings behind. We will link to that@bigduck.com, insights. And Brenda's written several pieces including let abundance and DEI guide your brand and communications. So be sure to check those out as you want to get into these topics. But let's get back to our pre scheduled conversation over here. Now, as we were preparing for today's conversation, we discussed some of the questions and comments you received when you presented this content, both in person at the N10 Nonprofit Technology Conference and then later as a webinar through Big Duck. And several people confidentially shared challenges to following these ideas in their organization, some of which you just touched on. Josh, they may have some resistance or concern about pushback from leadership. And if there are folks out there listening who may not have positional power or are facing roadblocks to implementing some of these ideas, what advice do you have for them?
- [21:17]
Brenda
Yeah, first off, I want to acknowledge that it's a very challenging situation to be in touch. And we know that the nonprofit industry has all sorts of issues and challenges with workers and really valuable missions and visions and reasons why they exist. Right. So when appreciations for all those people who brought up those kinds of dynamics that they're working through. Second, there's a phrase that comes to mind that I learned when I was working with the Coalition of Immokalee Workers in Florida. They say we are organizing a river. And so for these farmworkers who are working to improve labor rights in the field, the actual farm workers change from year to year. It's a migration based system. So the people who are working next to you might not be the same people who are working next to you next week and you might be in a different state or whatever. So it's really easy to fall into a hopelessness or why should I even try? This is very challenging situation. But what this phrase does for me, it reminds me that my actions or your actions and your intentions have impact. And it might not be immediately seen, it might not even be seen by you, but it does have impact and it matters. And people will remember new actions and new approaches. So I encourage anyone who might be in those tough situations to find ways to practice these on a skill that you can do without any major roadblocks. Is there something that you can try either in your department meeting or in a team meeting and then build up to your board meeting or a big retreat? And these could be very small to like I'm going to introduce myself in this way or I am going to share an agenda on the wall because, well, some organizations will still need a little bit of support with those kinds of things, but find ways to practice them and remember that you might not see the impact at this organization, but you don't know who you're working next to and you don't know where they're to be years from now and they're going to remember your approaches, your intentions and be able to implement them or make a new path forward.
- [23:24]
Josh
I'd also add something I always like to say is, well, if it were easy, it would already be done, right? That's sort of the point. If it was done, that means it was easy, right? And because it's not, therefore we still have more work to do. And so I think persistence is key in these sort of situations. But also remembering that no matter what your power positionality is, you can still model best practices by example, right? There's so much that you can focus on doing that, you know, maybe you can't get everyone to share their pronouns at a meeting, but you can share them. Maybe you can't get everyone to do a land acknowledgement in a meeting, but you can do a land acknowledgement. I know whenever I start to feel like, wow, I am just Sisyphus, like, pushing that giant rock up the mountain, I try to focus in and be like, well, what can I do? Right? How can I model this for other people? Because then that gets people excited about it. People notice that. And I know, I mean, even in our context, Brenda and I are, of course, bringing our own experiences and presenting that here in this context. But I learn from Brenda every day through what Brenda's modeling. Right. My own approaches to this stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum. Right. I look at my colleagues who model these practices and I adapt them myself. Right. And so it becomes a very social environment as well. And I am a white person. And the thing I try to tell other white people is like, we have power and privilege. We can say and do things that other people just can't get away with. And don't be afraid to use what you have. I always try to remind myself my whiteness is a shield at times. Right? I can get away with saying that big scary thing to that maybe big scary person. Right? And so use that. Use what you have to build the world that you want to live in.
- [24:58]
Farah
Well, I learned from both of you every day as I have on this conversation. And while we need to wrap things up, I want to just offer one more opportunity for folks out there to learn from you, too. Is there anything else you'd like to offer? Tips, recommendations, favorite ways of saying gif or gif, whatever it may be as we wrap things up? Josh, anything you want to share?
- [25:18]
Josh
I'm coming in hard with Jif, but in all seriousness, I just encourage folks to be a lifelong learner. When we talk about inclusivity and dei, we really try to position those things as, oh, this is just something we do in the workplace. And that's actually not true. Right. This is a way to move through the world whether you're at work or not. And so the more that you allow yourself to be a lifelong more learner and not just like, check these boxes and call it a day, the better. Because, you know, things are always changing. Maybe a year from now, we'll have to rerecord this podcast because there will be new best practices that we didn't even consider at this time. Right? This is a sort of never ending dialectic. And the more that you can be an engaged citizen and student of the communities that you live and work with the better. What voices do you have on your social media? Whose books are you reading? Whose stories are you watching on TV or watching in movies? What folks do you actually build authentic relationships with? So the more that you really bring this approach to your life, the better.
- [26:17]
Brenda
I think for me, when you're creating a welcoming culture, because this is about culture change, it means you're constantly kind of restarting and resetting as people join. So just plan for that. People are coming in. If you're succeeding, it's becoming more welcoming and more inclusive. So you are going to work with new kinds of people. So just stay agile and opening to new practices as they come and open to new ideas. Also prepare yourself you're going to be wrong one day. Prepare yourself as to how you're going to respond when somebody uses their time and effort to call you in. Because we're all human. So, yeah, stay agile, open to welcoming and inclusive practices as they will change throughout the times.
- [26:58]
Farah
Well, thank you both. You know, at Big Duck, we think and talk and write not just about creating amazing brands and campaigns and identities, but also the process of doing it, making it inclusive and making it engaging. And Brenda and Josh, I want to thank you again for joining us today. If you'd like to get more blogs and podcasts on these topics, please be sure to check out bigduck.com insights and also you can connect with Brenda Perez on LinkedIn. We will link to Brenda's profile as well. And again, Brenda and Josh, thanks for being with us today.
- [27:33]
Brenda
Thank you for having us. Excited to be here.
- [27:36]
Josh
Ah, such a pleasure. Always down. We'll do it again next year.
- [27:39]
Farah
There you go. Save the date. We'll see you again next year. All right, everyone, have a great day out there.
- [27:45]
Big Duck Intro
Are you a fan of this podcast or Big Duck's other resources on nonprofit communications? If you are, we'd love to hear from you. Please drop us a line by writing to helloigduck.com to tell us what you're working on and what topics you need help with. We also welcome getting your feedback via reviews. You can review this podcast in itunes or wherever you listen. We'd love to hear from you.
- [28:09]
Josh
This is the Smart Communications Podcast, Developing the Voices of Determined Nonprofits brought to.
- [28:14]
Big Duck Intro
You by Big Duck. Big Duck is an agency that puts smart communications in the hands of nonprofits. We help our nonprofit clients develop strong brands, strong campaigns, and strong teams that advance their missions and achieve their goals.
- [28:29]
Josh
Connect with us@bigduck.com.