Episode 190: How can you move from self-care to collective care?

Summary

The Smart Communications Podcast: Episode 190 Summary

Title: How Can You Move from Self-Care to Collective Care?

Host: Farrah, Co-Director at Big Duck
Guest: Lan Tao, Senior Consultant and Executive Coach at Community Resource Exchange (CRE)
Release Date: July 9, 2025

---

Introduction: Setting the Stage for Collective Wellbeing

In Episode 190 of The Smart Communications Podcast, host Farrah engages in a compelling conversation with Lan Tao, a seasoned executive coach from CRE. The episode delves into the transformative concept of carepacity, exploring how nonprofit organizations can transition from focusing solely on individual self-care to fostering a culture of collective care.

Farrah introduces the episode with enthusiasm, highlighting her recent meeting with Lan at a Nonprofit New York conference where the notion of carepacity first sparked her interest. This sets the tone for an insightful discussion aimed at empowering nonprofit leaders to enhance their organizational wellness.

---

Understanding Carepacity: A Framework for Organizational Wellness

[03:30] Lan Tao: "Carepacity is our framework at CRE for embedding care into how nonprofit organizations work. It's multidimensional and it's an intersectional lens on workplace wellness."

Lan elaborates on carepacity, emphasizing its role as a multidimensional and intersectional framework designed to integrate care into the very fabric of nonprofit operations. She breaks down the concept into four key dimensions:

1. Personal Wellness
2. Interpersonal Wellness
3. Organizational Wellness
4. Community and Societal Wellness

Lan underscores the importance of recognizing the varying access to wellness based on context, identity, and privilege, stating, “It's intersectional because it's important to acknowledge that access to wellness will vary depending on your context, your identity, your privilege.”

---

Anticipatory Burnout: The Hidden Threat

The conversation takes a deep dive into the phenomenon of anticipatory burnout, a state where individuals and organizations experience heightened stress in anticipation of potential challenges.

[04:16] Lan Tao: “This kind of anticipatory obedience was speaking to the behavior that some organizations will self censor or preemptively comply because of the potential consequences that may be coming their way given the climate that was being created.”

Lan explains that anticipatory burnout arises when organizations prepare for adversity, leading to increased cortisol levels and stress even before any concrete issues manifest. This proactive stress response can significantly hinder sustainable mission-driven work, affecting both individuals and teams.

---

Organizational Wellness and Inclusive Culture

Transitioning to organizational wellness, Farrah probes the connection between carepacity and fostering an inclusive culture that promotes belonging within teams.

[08:26] Lan Tao: "Capacity works to expand our ability for self-care by developing better ways to foster collective care."

Lan introduces the Emotional Energy Matrix, a strategic tool designed to help managers assess and understand the emotional and energy levels of their teams. The matrix categorizes team states into four quadrants:

1. Survival Mode: High energy but negative emotions driven by stress and pressure.
2. Performance Mode: High energy and positive emotions, the ideal state for thriving teams.
3. Burnout Mode: Low energy and negative emotions indicating deep exhaustion.
4. Restoration Mode: Low energy but positive emotions, a necessary phase for recovery.

By identifying where their teams fall within this matrix, leaders can implement targeted strategies to move their teams towards performance and restoration modes, ensuring long-term sustainability and wellbeing.

---

Metaphor of Encanto: Illustrating Carepacity

To illustrate carepacity, Lan draws an engaging parallel with Disney's Encanto, a story about a magical family whose harmony sustains their powers.

[09:32] Lan Tao: “Each madrigal represents a kind of capacity... but when the pressure to keep producing results starts to crack the foundation...”

In Encanto, the family's collective wellbeing is paramount, mirroring how nonprofit organizations must prioritize collective care over mere performance. Lan highlights that just as the family's home holds their magic together, nonprofits must maintain healthy organizational cultures to sustain their missions. Mirabel, the protagonist without a traditional gift, symbolizes the essential role of care and connection in preserving organizational health.

---

HERO Framework: Building Resilient Teams

Furthering the discussion, Lan introduces the HERO framework—Hope, Efficacy, Resolve, and Optimism—as foundational elements for fostering resilient and thriving teams.

[20:08] Lan Tao: “HERO stands for hope, efficacy, resolve, and optimism...”

1. Hope: Belief in a better future and the motivation to work towards it.
2. Efficacy: Confidence in one's ability to effect change.
3. Resolve: Sustainable problem-solving and forward movement.
4. Optimism: Positive outlook fostering creativity and collaboration.

Lan emphasizes that cultivating HERO traits within an organization leads to energized, engaged teams capable of overcoming challenges with a shared sense of purpose and belonging.

---

Practical Steps for Leaders: Implementing Carepacity and HERO

[21:43] Lan Tao: “So, so that the aspect of hero begins to be a part of your culture.”

Lan offers actionable strategies for leaders to embed carepacity and the HERO framework into their organizational practices:

• Name the Stuff: Encourage open dialogue about stress, fear, and fatigue.
• Model HERO Behaviors: Leaders should demonstrate hope, efficacy, resolve, and optimism in their actions.
• Protect Restoration: Implement policies like collective downtime or scheduled closures to ensure organizational recovery.
• Create Safe Spaces: Foster environments where team members feel seen, supported, and respected.

Farrah adds personal insights, sharing how her organization has benefited from collective downtime, reinforcing the importance of synchronized recovery for overall team health.

---

Conclusion: Embracing Collective Care for Sustainable Impact

As the episode concludes, Farrah invites listeners to explore more about carepacity by visiting CRE’s website and connecting with Lan on LinkedIn. She reiterates the importance of transitioning from individual self-care to a collective approach, ensuring that nonprofit organizations not only survive but thrive in their missions.

[24:16] Farrah: “Take care of yourselves and your organizations. Be good.”

---

Key Takeaways:

• Carepacity is a holistic framework that integrates personal, interpersonal, organizational, and community wellness within nonprofits.
• Anticipatory Burnout poses a significant threat by preemptively increasing stress and reducing sustainability.
• Emotional Energy Matrix helps leaders identify and address team emotional states to foster a thriving work environment.
• The HERO Framework—Hope, Efficacy, Resolve, Optimism—is essential for building resilient and engaged teams.
• Practical strategies for leaders include naming challenges, modeling desired behaviors, protecting restoration times, and creating safe spaces for open communication.

By embracing carepacity and HERO, nonprofit leaders can cultivate inclusive, supportive, and sustainable organizations capable of achieving their missions effectively.

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Community Resource Exchange (CRE): crenyc.org
• Encanto (Disney Movie)
• Emotional Energy Matrix Framework
• HERO Framework: Hope, Efficacy, Resolve, Optimism

Connect with Lan Tao: LinkedIn

---

For more insights and episodes, visit [e-mail] and follow The Smart Communications Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Transcript

[Lan Tao]

This is the Smart Communications.

[Farrah]

Smart Communications Smart Communications Podcast.

[Big Duck]

Developing the voices Developing the voices that determine nonprofits brought to you by Big Duck.

[Farrah]

Welcome to the Smart Communications Podcast. This is Farrah, trumpeter co director and worker owner at Big Duck. Today we're going to ask the question, how can you move from self care to collective care? I am delighted to be joined by Lan Tao. Lan uses she her pronouns and is a senior consultant and executive coach at Community Resource Exchange, or cre. At cre, lan works at the intersection of human centered design, strategic learning, and wellness centered organizational changes. She brings over 20 years of experience in education, equity, and executive and organizational development with prior roles at Columbia Business School, American Honda Education Corporation, and the Bonner foundation, working with various community based, national and global nonprofits. A resident of East Harlem, lan loves to craft summer rolls, mochi mooncakes, and milkshakes with her two children. And like me, I have discovered that lan loves chocolate chip cookies at Levain and the chocolate babka at Bread's Bakery. Lan, welcome to the show.

[Lan Tao]

Hi, Farrah. Thanks for that intro. It's so nice to be here with you today. I have to share, though, that I recently discovered this place near 23rd and 5th. It's called Salzwee, and the creations they make are magical. Melt in your mouth. Masterpieces. They're so beautiful and they taste amazing. Amazing. You have to go essentially, are we.

[Farrah]

Talking chocolate, jelly, fruit? What do we have going on here?

[Lan Tao]

It's like panna cotta ice cream with like a bit of pie filling. And they are able to kind of create it in the shape of fruits and mushrooms and trees and just all sorts of shapes and you don't know what to expect when you open it up.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's sort of like that box of, of of chocolates. You, you crack the mango. It's not a mango, but inside is something amazing.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And so it's definitely something I would say is a capacity seeking adventure that I would send you on.

[Farrah]

Love it. Well, we haven't even told everyone what capacity is yet, so we're going to come into that. But it's all about feeding the mind and the soul, so I'm excited to get into it. Well, Big Duck has had the pleasure of working with you and the team at CRE via technical assistance we both provide for New York through the Department of Youth and Community Development, or dycd. And you and I met for the first time in person just a few months ago at a conference led by nonprofit New York. In fact, we talked more over food you can see that food is clearly the shared love language here. And I was there at Nonprofit New York speaking on a panel about organizational resilience. And you raised your hand in front of the audience and actively engaged and shared a concept with the audience there and with me. That was new carepacity, the one you just mentioned a moment ago. I was so intrigued when I heard that term that we spoke more about it. And I'm so excited to have you here today to talk about it. So let's just start there. Lan, what is carepacity?

[Lan Tao]

Yeah, you know, that gathering seemed like ages ago, didn't it? I mean, so much has happened since and continues to be happening. And when we met at that conference, the topic was around safeguarding New York City's nonprofit sector. And we were weeks into the post inauguration of the new administration. And folks from across the sector, organizational leaders, nonprofit staff at all levels, advocates, philanthropy, funders came together because the political landscape had been shifting tremendously and not in support of the well being of the nonprofit sector, its people or its mission.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And so as we were sitting there together, one of the thoughts that came to me in that gathering was this idea of anticipatory burnout. And this was sparked from the idea that someone else spoke to around anticipatory obedience.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

That was occurring in some parts of all of the sectors, business, government, nonprofit.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And this kind of anticipatory obedience was speaking to the behavior that some organizations will self censor or preemptively comply because of the potential consequences that may be coming their way given the climate that was being created. And that made me think that there may be levels of anticipatory burnout.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

That folks are preparing for the realities of increased burnout in themselves, but also their teams due to this challenging environment that is being created and compounded for nonprofit workers. And so just thinking about it, you know, creates stress, you know, just that potentially nothing has happened yet.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

But knowing something might happen takes your cortisol levels up a notch before anything concrete has happened. And that is sort of this level of anticipatory burnout that, that began sort of popping into my head. So, so just to finish painting this, this picture a bit here. So like anytime organizations are being threatened by funding restrictions or where their missions are being challenged, it can lead to a lot of stuff at all levels of the organization, internally and externally. And stuff here stands for stress, time constraints, uncertainty, fear and fatigue.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

And this is the kind of stuff that gets in the way of being able to sustainably do our mission work as individuals? Certainly, but also as teams and as organizations and I would even say as a sector as a whole.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Stuff is what creates that collective disturbance that ripples out from one end and begins to impact an entirely, seemingly separate space, but actually is interconnected. So how do we address all this stuff that's coming up?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And this is where capacity comes in.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

So. So finally, to answer your question, capacity is.

[Farrah]

I appreciate the lead up, you know, brought us on a journey, but yeah, we're going to come back to it now. What is carepacity?

[Lan Tao]

Yes. So carepacity is our framework at CRE for embedding care into how nonprofit organizations work.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's multidimensional and it's an intersectional lens on workplace wellness. It's multidimensional because it lives in four dimensions. Personal wellness, interpersonal wellness, or organizational wellness, and community and societal wellness.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's intersectional because it's important to acknowledge that access to wellness will vary depending on your context, your identity, your privilege.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And these two lenses together, the dimensions and the intersections, is where carepacity works.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Capacity works to expand our ability to for self care by developing better ways to foster collective care.

[Farrah]

I wanna talk a little bit about that organizational wellness piece and as you were talking, right. About this idea of anticipatory burnout in the beginning. And there's a lot that many organizations, many of us are responding to and having to react right now. But I wanna think about those who are also trying to be proactive. And I'm curious, how does carepacity connect to creating a culture that is inclusive and fosters belonging?

[Lan Tao]

If we think about capacity as our experience, our knowledge, our expertise, our skills that we bring to the workplace, capacity is about the energy it takes to tap into all that.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's about the care required to build capacity, and it's connected to the capacity we need to practice care. It's essentially strategy for organizational wellness.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

So the best way for me to kind of weave in how culture and inclusivity sort of connect to all of this is to ask you a question about whether you've seen Encanto. Have you seen Encanto?

[Farrah]

I hate to admit it that I have not, but I have been told. I remember I ran into a little child and with my curly hair and glasses, she thought I was one of the characters.

[Lan Tao]

Oh, my goodness. I just. I just noticed this. Yes, yes. You may very well be a lead for Encanto.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

So there you go. If it's. If it's okay with you? I just want to share a little, a little bit about.

[Farrah]

I've heard it's great. I need to see it.

[Lan Tao]

It is, it's fantastic. I would recommend it to everyone and anyone. And after I tell you about this metaphor that I use with Encanto, you will definitely look at it through a different lens, even if you've seen it before, right? So it's, it really is such a. A great story about how we can move from burnout to belonging. And so much of it lies on four needs in the workplace, right? The four needs are to be seen to be valued, to be respected and to be protected, right? And there might be spoilers here for those of you, like you, Farah, who haven't seen Encanto. So here's the alert for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to. You can mu me right now. But in the story, Encanto introduces us to a magical family, the madrigals, right? Each are blessed with a unique gift, except for the. The main character, Mirabel, who appears to have no gift, right? As the story unfolds, we begin to see that what's really at stake isn't the individual gifts. It's the well being of the family system holding all the magic together. And this is where the metaphor begins to tie in. Capacity, right? Each madrigal represents a kind of capacity, right? Strength, healing, foresight, creativity. We can think of these as the kinds of gifts that nonprofits carry, right? The skill sets, the programs, the services, advocacy, innovation, right? And your people are who carry out these gifts. But what happens when the pressure to keep producing results, to live up to expectations or to constantly hold everything together starts to crack the foundation? And that's what happens to the casita in the story, the home that the house that houses all of the Madrigal family, the walls begin to crack. There's unaddressed pressure, there's silence, there's fear. And there's an over functioning that starts to destabilize the foundation. And it's Mirabel, the one with no gift, seemingly no gift, right? Ends up being the one who sees the cracks first. And in doing so, she invites a different kind of strength, right? The strength of care, of being present, of naming the hard things, of reconnecting relationships and rebuilding trust, right? She models how repair and regeneration can be just as powerful, if not more so than performance. And that's capacity, right? That's what inclusive, caring leadership looks like. It's not just about helping people work harder or smarter or better. It's it's about tending to the underlying systems that hold us together, Right? And making sure that those systems aren't built solely on pressure or sacrifice or silent suffering.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Capacity is helping organizations look at the foundation, the culture, the relationships, the policies, the unspoken expectations, and rebuilding from a place that centers care, inclusion, and sustainability.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

Because just like Encanto, and I'm going to share this with folks who know the movie, who know the music, and they will appreciate this. And you will too, Farrah, because you're going to watch the movie and you're going to be like, yes, absolutely.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

So. So. So just like Encanto, if we want the magic, if we want our missions, our work, our impact to burn bright and last, we need to take care of the house. We need to take care of our casita.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

Which means that we need to take care of each other and of ourselves. So, five things we need to look at the surface pressures people are experiencing and what's underlying. We need to talk about Bruno. We need to let people be seen for what else they can do.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

And there needs to be healing and restoration, like caterpillars transforming into a butterfly. And lastly, we need to create conversations and communities where all of us can show up.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

Without perfection, but with united purpose and connection. For those of you who are listening who know Encanto, you will notice that I used the last five tips related to the hit songs from that movie, so hopefully that'll stick with you and inspire you into greater capacity as you are. You are listening to that soundtrack.

[Farrah]

I have heard the reference to the talking about Bruno before, so it's all coming full circle to me, and I will definitely queue up the movie. Well, you know, we've got a lot of managers and directors of organizations that I know tune in and listen to this conversation, and I want to bring it to them. You just laid out things that folks can do, and I want to add to that. And as we think about what a leader does to guide their organization, what's the difference? Or how can they tell whether their staff are surviving or that they are thriving?

[Lan Tao]

Yeah, that's such an important question because, you know, and especially for managers and directors who are navigating both the operational as well as the emotional ecosystems of their teams.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

So I will offer this simple but hopefully powerful tool from our capacity framework to help folks think about this, right? And we call it the Emotional Energy Matrix. It's a lens that helps managers assess where their teams and individuals on their team might be in terms of how they're operating emotionally and energetically. So imagine four quadrants. If you can see these four quadrants, and on the Y axis is energy, low to high. And on the X axis is emotions, negative to positive. So that means at the top quadrant, this is if your team feels frustrated, right? There's negative emotion here, anxiousness, irritability, fearfulness. But they're still getting things done.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

There's still high energy. This is what we call survival mode.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

That's high energy, but negative emotion. Productivity might still look okay on the surface, but it's driven by stress and unsustainable pressure. It's where burnout begins to brew. And then if your team is enthusiastic, engaged and alive, they're. They're in performance mode. Performance mode is this part of the quadrant on the right where there's positive emotions as well as high energy. And that's the sweet spot. That's where the mission and morale meet. It's where teams begin to thrive. So if folks are exhausted, though, they feel empty, they feel discouraged, you're likely in burnout mode. And that's the low energy, negative emotion zone. Productivity starts to drop. But even more critically, people begin to emotionally check out.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's a red flag that care is urgently needed. And then the last quadrant, that's our restoration mode. This is often where we can quickly overlook the need to spend time in this quadrant.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

This is low energy but positive emotion.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

So you want to think calm, rested, peaceful. It's not like a lazy space. It's recovery.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

It's where people go to replenish before they can return to high energy performance. And if your team isn't accessing this mode, they're not regenerating what the work needs in order for them to move into performance mode. So when I think about how leaders can access this, once you recognize these energies and recognize how the matrix moves, you can begin asking questions like what energy is driving our work right now? Fear or purpose? You know, what emotions are people carrying into meetings or into deadlines or into. Into the unknown.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

I won't use a frozen metaphor here. Are we making space for restoration or are we just pushing through performance at all costs? Right. Sometimes organizations will move from survival to performance to burnout to survival to performance to burnout. And they forget the restoration zone completely or they have a restoration zone, but it's short lived. For instance, you hopefully will never experience this or have never. But I'm sure folks experience going on vacation, they come back refreshed, they're dewy, but by the end of the day, or maybe even by mid, mid morning, that dewiness disappears.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

They're having to unpack all the emails, the messages, the projects. And so the conditions for having that restoration zone, really sustainability isn't present within the organization, right. And, and this is where capacity is asking us to shift. Carepacity is asking us to think through, you know, is the restoration or performance zone getting zapped because of poor wellness habits of your individual worker? Or might the conditions for wellness need conditioning? And so, so Carepacity is inviting managers and directors to not only look at how you manage your people, but how you tend to the emotional and capacity building infrastructures that hold your team together.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

You're not responsible for everyone's feelings at work, but, but you do need to create conditions where people feel seen, supported, respected and safe enough to move through all four quadrants of these energy zones.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And that's, that's what allows people to, to really be in teams that thrive.

[Farrah]

That's great. Well, we have to wrap up in a moment, but I'm going to ask you one last question. I know you're great with these frameworks and these acronyms and these stories, so I know there's another one you've been using, which is hero. And I wonder if you can unpack what HERO is and perhaps suggest one or two things people can do to foster HERO on their team.

[Lan Tao]

Yeah, absolutely. So if your organization or your team is experiencing a lot of stuff, right, like how do we begin to combat stuff? And we do that by calling in our heroes, by building in heroes.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And so HERO stands for hope, efficacy, resolve and optimism. Hope is what fuels our belief that something better is possible and worth working toward.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Efficacy means that the people in your organization feel confident in their ability to take action and make a difference. Resolve is sort of like taking resilience to another level. It's about showing up in a sustainable, problem solving way that isn't about bouncing back, but about moving forward in order to take us to a different place. And optimism brings in this future orientation. This is the spark, right? This is the fuel that allows for us to move towards collaboration, move towards creativity. That is so important to inspire hope, efficacy and resolve. So in a HERO culture, you'll see staff who are going to be energized. They're forward thinking teams that are communicating openly and with trust. There's going to be a culture of shared accountability, of generosity, and there's going to be space for rest as well as for innovation. There's a Strong sense of belonging, purpose, and possibility. For those of you out there who are listening and you're wondering, well, so how do I build a hero?

[Unknown]

Right?

[Lan Tao]

Like, how do I begin to do that? So you want to be able to name the stuff.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

You want to be able to create space for honest reflection and ask, where are we seeing signs of stress, fear, fatigue.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

How do we normalize naming what's hard? So it's not just living under the surface. You also want to be able to model the behaviors of being a hero.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Leaders who practice hope by naming a better future are able to exhibit efficacy by inviting other people to problem solve with them, are able to lean into resolve by being consistent and caring. And also, you know, leaning into optimism.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

Reminding the team of their strengths, their past wins, their current wins.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

These all help to create traits that ripple across the organization. So. So that the aspect of hero begins to be a part of your culture. So I would also say that you want to protect restoration. We want to schedule downtime, limit after hours emails or, you know, do that really cool, you know, schedule send thing. I think that's. That's awesome. Treat rest as strategic, not indulgent. And when staff have room to recover, they can really reconnect better with purpose.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lan Tao]

And sometimes that recovery requires a collective pause. Not individuals taking vacations at different times, but having the whole organization pause together so that when you restart, everybody restarts at the same place and there's no catch up and there's no sense of feeling behind because you all pause together. Yeah. So those are just a few things that can get you started to build heroes.

[Farrah]

That's great. Yeah. On that last point, we've been experimenting with closing a Friday periodically that we.

[Lan Tao]

All are out for.

[Farrah]

It's been helpful to know that everyone is out to your point so that you're not on vacation and coming back from a million slacks and emails, but everyone is coming back. And actually there aren't that many slacks and emails because everybody was gone. So. Yeah, that's a great point. So if you're out there and you'd like to learn more about carepacity and how LAN and the team at CRE can help strengthen your nonprofit, visit crenyc.org you can also connect with Lan on LinkedIn and, you know, send her requests or recommendations for food and movies to check out. But lan, thank you so much for being here today.

[Lan Tao]

Thanks, Farah. Take care, everyone.

[Farrah]

Yeah, take care of yourselves and your organizations. Be good.

[Big Duck]

Are you a fan of this podcast or big Duck's other resources on nonprofit communications. If you are, we'd love to hear from you. Please drop us a line by writing to helloakeduck.com to tell us what you're working on and what topics you need help with. We also welcome getting your feedback via reviews. You can review this podcast wherever you listen. We'd love to hear from you.

[Farrah]

This is the Smart Communications Podcast, Developing the Voices of Determined Nonprofits, brought to you by Big Duck.

[Big Duck]

Big Duck is an agency that puts smart communications in the hands of nonprofits. We help our nonprofit clients develop strong brands, strong campaigns, and strong teams, and advance their missions and achieve their goals.

[Farrah]

Connect with [e-mail].