The Smart Communications Podcast

Episode 200: How can we reimagine nonprofits and philanthropy?
Host: Farrah Trim Peter
Guest: Vu Le (writer of NonprofitAF.com; author, activist, nonprofit leader)
Date: December 3, 2025

Episode Overview

This milestone 200th episode delves into how nonprofits and philanthropy can be boldly reimagined to unlock the sector’s full potential. Host Farrah Trim Peter interviews Vu Le, a leading nonprofit thinker, writer, and troublemaker, about dismantling outdated sector norms, pushing for actual change, and prioritizing humanity and joy. The discussion draws on Vu Le’s new book, Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy: Unlocking the Full Potential of a Vital and Complex Sector, highlighting both the urgency of systemic transformation and the importance of hope and connection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write a Book Now?

• Vu Le consolidated years of blogging into book form

  • Over 600+ blog posts, but wanted a more organized, accessible format for key lessons and ideas.
  • Admits frankly that a book gives credibility and “plays the game” for spreading ideas more broadly, such as getting into university syllabi.
  • “The way that things go here in this sort of culture, you kind of need a book to be taken seriously, and we can talk about that… sometimes you just got to play the game.” (03:06)

• Alternate titles considered

  • Vu confesses he pitched more provocative titles like “Let’s Burn This Shit Down” but was steered by publishers toward respectability.
  • Demonstrates his signature mix of humor and candor.

2. Challenging “Sacred Cows” of the Sector

• Letting Go of Hero Worship of Donors (04:29–05:33)

  • Questioning why donor preferences are centered above mission or expertise.
  • Draws analogy: Letting donors dictate nonprofit work is like patients telling dentists which drill to use.
  • Quote: “I think we need to care less about donors’ feelings and what they want. Like, why? Just because you have a bunch of money, you get to determine how nonprofits do their work? In any other profession, that’s called corruption…” (04:18)

• Reexamining Board Power and Structure (05:33–06:19)

  • Challenges the norm that boards (often underinformed, not with lived experience) should have ultimate authority.
  • Finds it irrational: “The board is one of the least informed groups of people in the sector… How do we have a system where people who see 1% of the work…get to have vast power?” (05:43)

3. Nonprofit Role in Defending Humanity

• The urgency of confronting bigger societal threats (07:05–08:22)
  • Nonprofits must move beyond “shenanigans and bullshit” to focus on fighting fascism and defending civil rights.
  • The sector’s responsibilities include institution building, protecting voting rights, tax reform, and amplifying community representation, especially as attacks on democracy escalate.
  • “We don’t have time to waste… We have a very important role to play in really stopping this rapid rise of fascism.” (07:23)

4. What Vu Wishes He’d Learned Earlier

• Everything is Made Up (10:26–11:51)

  • Nonprofit “best practices” (e.g., Robert’s Rules of Order) are historical artifacts, not immutable truths.
  • Example: Robert’s Rules were created by a military officer for a 19th century Congress, not today’s teams.
  • “Everything we’re dealing with that we’ve been taught as best practice — it’s made up. And what that means is that we don’t really have to follow it.” (10:29)
  • These systems can be exclusionary and confusing, especially for marginalized communities.

• Need for True Reimagination versus Incrementalism (12:39–13:42)

  • Encourages aiming for big-picture societal change, not just making the current state “10% less crappy" every year.
  • Calls for imaginative, purpose-driven redesign of sector roles, even joking about new career paths if society’s problems are truly solved.

5. Wheel of Change: Overcoming Barriers to Change

• Explaining Robert Gass’s Framework (14:58-16:05)

  • Change involves three interconnected elements:

    1. Hearts & Minds: Motivations, beliefs, personal and cultural background
    2. Behaviors: Individual or collective actions
    3. Systems: Structures, policies, and established practices

  • Too often, efforts skip the “hearts and minds” step and focus only on changing behavior or systems, making true change harder.

  • Quote: “A lot of resistance to change is because people may have certain unconscious things...affecting their hearts and mind. And so really kind of understanding it will lead to much more effective changes…” (15:44)

• Application to Communications

  • Farrah relates this to audience-centered communications — knowing motivations before choosing messages or channels.

• Limits of Centering Donor Feelings

  • Touches on the Community Centric Fundraising movement: Centering donor feelings is not a solution; authentic conversations and sometimes discomfort are needed for meaningful change.
  • “Sometimes the most meaningful things are painful. Like ask people to examine where their wealth comes from.” (16:47)

6. Rants: What’s Wrong in Nonprofits Now

• On “White Moderation” and Tone Policing (17:33–18:41)

  • Calls out the tendency to value civility and politeness over truth and urgency, quoting Dr. King’s warning about the “white moderate.”
  • Critiques feedback that focuses on language/tone (e.g., swearing) rather than the actual harms being discussed:
  • “‘That’s the F word you’re worried about? Not fascist?’” (18:36)

• Self-Policing and Lack of Grace in Progressive Spaces (18:41–19:52)

  • Observes that progressive/nonprofit activists sometimes turn on each other rather than maintaining grace for learning or honest mistakes.
  • Stresses the need to identify the actual “enemy” (opponents of justice) and to maintain solidarity.

• Philanthropic Hoarding

  • Condemns funders for sitting on wealth while urgent needs abound: “What the fuck are you saving for?” (19:39)

7. Joy & Hope: What Inspires Vu

• Personal Uplifts (20:40–21:22)
  • Finds joy in small things: his kids, gardening, flowers that bloom.
  • Profound inspiration from nonprofit peers who “continue to fight, even if it’s hard...building community and resisting creatively.”

Notable Quotes

• Vu Le:

  • “Everything we’re dealing with...as best practice, it’s made up. And what that means is that we don’t really have to follow it.” (10:29)
  • “Donors are wonderful people. I don’t go to my dentist and be like, ‘Because I’m paying for this root canal, why don’t you use the number 7 drill?’” (05:08)
  • “We have a very important role to play in really, like, stopping this rapid rise of fascism. And that means...philanthropy and nonprofits have to start thinking about what are these things we just don’t have time for anymore.” (07:23)
  • “I’m very tired of this sort of civility. People are like, oh, why don’t we...This is what you worry about?...That’s the F word you’re worried about. Not fascist?” (18:36)

• Farrah Trim Peter:

  • “Just say you want to talk about something and can everyone approve it? Why do we have to get a second and a this and that?” (11:31)
  • “I think as you understand these things, it leads you to question even your own activities and behaviors, which I think is important too.” (17:13)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Guest Introduction & Background – 00:16–02:02
• Why Write a Book? / Publishing Motives – 02:46–03:42
• Challenging Sacred Ideas (Donors & Boards) – 04:29–06:19
• Nonprofits’ Role Amid Rising Threats – 07:05–08:22
• Advice Vu Wishes He’d Had Early – 10:26–11:51
• Rethinking Incrementalism vs. Reimagining – 12:39–13:42
• Wheel of Change Framework – 14:58–16:39
• Centering Audiences & Donors’ Role – 16:05–17:13
• Rants: White Moderation & Tone Policing – 17:33–18:41
• Turning on One Another in Justice Movements – 18:41–19:52
• Joy, Hope, and What Keeps Vu Going – 20:40–21:22
• Closing, Message of Hope – 21:56–23:15

Closing Reflections

Vu Le concludes with empathy and encouragement, urging nonprofit workers to acknowledge the hardship and collective stress of the times but to remember that progress often follows periods of darkness. He emphasizes self-care, mutual support, and holding on to the possibility of a better world.

“Some of the worst moments in history are often followed by some of the best moments…Take care of one another, continue building community, because that’s how we’re gonna make it through this, not just surviving, but…I think a better world will come out of this.” (22:15)

Additional Resources

• Vu Le’s blog: nonprofitaf.com
• Book: Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy
• Relevant article cited: Maurice Mitchell’s "Building Resilient Organizations" (2022)
• Community Centric Fundraising: communitycentricfundraising.org
• Further reading & links: Available in the episode transcript at bigduck.com/insights

Summary by The Smart Communications Podcast Summarizer – capturing the spirit, candor, and urgency of this inspiring conversation for those pushing for a better nonprofit sector.