Chris (3:08)

Were they doing that thing where you know, they're running AC as if it's packed and they're like accounting for all the body heat but there's no one in there.

Matt Farah (3:16)

Yeah.

Zach (3:16)

Or, or it's like the guy standing over the grill also has control over the. That's a problem, you know. So I got, I left my house at 5:15. I made it to Baker by 7. Like I was flying early, early morning, nobody on the road, 7:30. Not irresponsible but just unimpeded motion, you know what I mean? That type of drive and stop for breakfast. And then I just kept going the whole rest of the way. I didn't stop other than for gas the rest of the way made it to zion at about 3. So that was like, you know, 10 hours or so of driving yesterday. Yeah, I hit the gym. Dinner and the place I went to dinner had no alcohol, so I had a 20mg and I went to bed at 8:30 and I was wide awake at about 4:45 this morning and like ready to go. The first breakfast place opened at 7 so I did some writing and had coffee, got a breakfast burrito. The second this place unlocked the doors and I was on my way and I thought I could get an early check in here in Sedona so that we could do the podcast and I could be in like my room. And when I got here no one knew anything about the early check in that I requested. And rather than just being like, nah, your room isn't going to be ready by this time, they were like maybe it will be. So I had a very stressful hour of maybe it will be, maybe it will be before coming down here to this, this coffee room little coffee bar where I am now and like people are just like passing by over here on the stairs. I'm probably being on loud.

Chris (5:05)

And when, when you do the scout stuff like you're driving a route you've pre planned obviously, but do you need to stop and take notes about things? Does that slow your down or do you only stop if there's a problem that needs to be marked?

Zach (5:21)

Well, so most frequently So I make the route in Google Maps right first and generally like I'm pretty sure it's going to be good, but also I need to like, you know, find a coffee shop, find a gas station, find a this, you know, find a good place to take a big group photo, find a place for our photographer to set up for like a group drive by shot with a big background. And so most of the time that one's actually the hardest. And I'll tell you why, and you would know this, but the audience may not. The photographer is going to want to shoot the front of our cars, meaning they want a background. So as I'm driving, what I'm seeing in the front of me isn't what they're going to be looking behind me. So I'm looking for a backdrop that's in my mirrors, you know what I mean? So if a photographer is shooting at the nose, then whatever's behind the so and then I just use not voice notes but the notes app in the phone and like voice to text. And then I can, I just make little short handy comments. And then when I get to the hotel, I turn that, my little shorthandy comments into like a document that I send back to the events team. But I do, I stop and take photos of like the car in pretty places so that I can like promote the thing on Instagram. But as far as like prepping for the route, it's like, like for instance, the, the place I thought we were gonna have lunch yesterday, turns out they don't serve lunch. There's a dinner restaurant. And so, so, you know, you have to figure out, you know, okay, well that's, that's a no go. So like where, where are we going to eat, whatever. So it's stuff like that. But generally the couple of stops I have to make are offset by the fact that just by nature of me being a solo car, I'm going to be able to go a little quicker than a group of 20 cars can go. Of course, you know what I mean? So it offsets, it's close enough. I usually get, we usually get pretty good. I usually can we get it to the minute these drives. We get it pretty tight. It's nice. Wow.

Chris (7:43)

Yeah, Like a Swiss train.

Zach (7:46)

Yeah, we get it. We, we've, we've done enough of them though. And today's drive was like pretty sick. I mean you've done some of it. You know, wake up in Springdale, you at the entrance to Zion. So the first thing you do stunning is you go up, go up the wall of the park. It, you know, it's sunrise, just epic. And then that other bit, you know, on the other side of the tunnel, the north side of the Zion Mount Carmel Tunnel is actually like super sick for about 10, 15 miles. Little icy this morning for the E Ray, so that was fun fucking.

Chris (8:18)

You had all wheel drive.

Zach (8:21)

All wheel drive helps, but PS4S is when it's 22 degrees, can only do so much. I didn't have any whoopsies, but I had a little bit of, a. Little bit of a puckery slide under breaking.

Chris (8:33)

You could just tell that the compound was really hard and not kind of not gripped up because the tarmac there is.

Zach (8:39)

The road was very. The road was very cold. I mean, it was like. It felt like. I mean, I was there at. It was. It was the first, you know, I got my breakfast burrito at 7am Sunrise was 7. First light was 7:15. Sunrise was 7:34. So like, I was out there like at first light. I was like the first, first set of tracks on this road. It was a little bit. It was a cold, you know, you could feel a road is cold. It was like that.

Chris (9:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful place.

Zach (9:09)

But the, but the, but the drive, that drive you go today, you go through like the drive from Zion to Sedona. You go through like four different climates and the shift from one climate happens like, incredibly, like abruptly. Like you're in a forest and you like go around a corner and. And it's just end, end of trees. You know what I mean? Corner, corner, corner. And like now, now you're in an open desert. You know what I mean? And then you like, all of a sudden you're in a desert and like go dip down into a valley and then it's like lush, you know, rivers and whatnot. It's, it's pretty, pretty, pretty amazing drive.

Chris (9:55)

It's amazing. Sarah and I did that road trip last year. We drove from Atlanta home. And the drive from like through Moab and then dropping into Zion was just the most amazing change within a few hours. Like you said desert to like, high forest. Then dropping into Zion. If anyone, if you're listening and you like, make the time to do that at some point in your life. It's fantastic.

Zach (10:16)

Yeah, this, and this route is like, it's really interesting, I think, I think the passengers will really like it because you have some fast sections and you have some very pretty sections and they're like, not the same. Like, you have to go kind of slow during the pretty sections where they're like very tight and technical, like through Zion. And then also as you go down the wall into Sedona from the north, like that's a busy road. You just can't drive fast. But it's stunningly beautiful. And you can, you can past that with like the open desert runs because it's like windy, windy, windy, windy, windy. And then like a 10 mile straight away. And then windy, windy, windy, windy, windy. And then like A. Another 10 miles straight away. And so you can go quick. And then there's like pretty sections, but they're not like the same. So. Yeah, it's the kind of event where like passengers are. Are not going to get, you know, like nauseous.

Chris (11:16)

Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways the person driving through a spot like Zion, they kind of miss out because they have to focus on what the, you know, the road ahead of them, the cars ahead of them. They can't look up at those amazing walls the way the passenger can.

Zach (11:28)

Yeah.

Chris (11:29)

So that's good little treatment.

Zach (11:30)

It's a real like top down section, you know?

Chris (11:32)

Yeah.

Zach (11:33)

And then tomorrow morning I'm gonna bust out of here early because it's what I do. And I'm going to Scottsdale because the event ends at Otto, my, my. My partner facility in Scottsdale. Eli's place. We're gonna end there and it's. It's a beautiful route from here to there. We're gonna go through Jerome, which is this funny, funky little town up on the side of a cliff in Arizona. It's amazing road up and over it. And then, you know, it's Barrett Jackson week in Scottsdale. So.

Chris (12:06)

Oh, my God.

Zach (12:06)

I didn't even know that. Didn't even know it. And so our pal Mike Musto is in Scottsdale. So I'm actually, if I get there early enough, if I drive quickly and efficiently, it's like five hours driving from here. So if I get there early afternoon, we could do a little Barrett Jackson, maybe waste a little money on something stupid.

Chris (12:29)

You definitely need a third project car.

Zach (12:32)

No, we don't need a car. But I'm hoping to go down in the sideshow and maybe get another set of bamboo sheets like last time.

Chris (12:39)

You can get those, like on the Internet. That's so funny that you can. Barry Jackson. No, you can.

Zach (12:44)

That was only the first place I bought them.

Chris (12:46)

Yeah, it's just like of all the things, like I was thinking car stuff, tires, wheels, maybe, maybe like crocodile boots you'd find there. But you're like, no, no, no. I want to get the same things I can get at Crate and Barrel. The good ones are outside a car auction for sure.

Zach (13:04)

No, maybe, maybe like a massage chair, Maybe a fan boat. I mean, I don't even know. Look, if this, if this trailer deal comes through, bro, our troubles are over. Very true.

Chris (13:19)

Are you buying used sheets there that were like slept in by Tony Stewart or some, some famous person you like? Like, is that what you're buying there? Truthfully?

Zach (13:28)

Sheets to sniff? No, I'm not buying sniffers.

Chris (13:31)

Sniffable sheets people buy like Elvis's pants. You know, you're, you're out there buying, you know, Scorsese's bamboo.

Zach (13:37)

I wasn't searching for sheets. I, I was just some very soft sheets and I was like, these are fucking good. So funny, folks.

Matt Farah (13:46)

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Zach (14:18)

And let me just say, I spoil.

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Zach (17:56)

No, but speaking of the. So this trailer thing. Right. So let's workshop this for a second. So I have a opportunity to advertise for a company that makes really high quality trailers, race trailers. And Zach and I don't like need a trailer today. We don't, we don't need a trailer today. But like, long term having a trailer is like a great idea.

Chris (18:20)

Absolutely.

Zach (18:21)

And if, if we can trade some advertising for a trailer, well, that's way better than spending our own money on a trailer, right? Especially, like a good trailer. Okay. So we have this opportunity to trade for trailer. Okay. And that's cool. But the reason it came up is because we're, you know, we're doing the ice race with the Manx, the fat ice race in Montana in February. And Philip Seraphim, owner of Manx, has kindly offered to put the car on his transporter with all his other whatever the. He's sending up there. Who knows? Probably some. Probably like the Strato zero put studs on some concept car that doesn't exist. So he's offered to transport the car and we could fly up there and rent a car, and that'll be that. The car will be there, or if we get a free trailer, then Zach and I would get some kind of delightfully luxurious tow vehicle and tow the car up there ourselves. It's 10, 75 miles each way. It's far. I mean, essentially, we would have to go. Most of the way to Salt Lake City the first day. You know, it's. It's. It's a. It's like. It's like. It's most of the way to Salt Lake City. So it's. It's. It would be two days each way of just driving. Now, there's a. I suppose maybe a story in that depending on what we're towing with, if we use. If we steal, like, Vinnie's, like, mobile Starlink thing, we could probably do maybe something fun on Patreon or I don't know what. But maybe something with, like, a better live stream from the car. But it seems like a. And. And then it would save at least two of us from buying plane tickets, which are expensive, and it would save us from having to rent another car, which is expensive. Or.

Chris (20:40)

And.

Zach (20:40)

Or get from Bozeman to Big sky, which is expensive. But like. But also Number three is that. Is that the ice race is the 27th and 28th. I don't know what's on Sunday the 1st. It seems like everybody's leaving to go home on Sunday the 1st. And the event is really Friday, Saturday. But I've been invited on the Valhalla launch. The Aston Valhalla launch, which is. The invite, said March 3rd to 5th in Spain, so I assume that means I leave LA on the 3rd and.

Chris (21:23)

Then land well on the 4th.

Zach (21:26)

I hope it doesn't mean I leave a LA.

Chris (21:28)

But then you'd have. But then what? You know, usually you don't drive the car the day you land.

Zach (21:33)

So. Yeah, I don't.

Chris (21:35)

Yeah, you should get.

Zach (21:36)

I don't really know. I need to get. I need to figure it out. Otherwise, I'd have to. I'd have to. It's really not possible. Otherwise, I'd leave you. I'd fly from Bozeman and leave you up there to trailer this thing back all the way, and that would stink.

Chris (21:50)

Can you see this now working?

Zach (21:52)

I can see it, yeah. And believe you me, Aston said, you know, look, we. We. We want to get you on this drive program, but to be perfectly honest, this is the only opportunity you're going to get. There's not going to be press cars in the US So if you want to drive Valhalla, this is it.

Matt Farah (22:12)

So.

Chris (22:15)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I'm inclined to say we ship the car with Philip, because there are times where I would love to just, like, I would tow the car back myself and have, like, a nice solo trip because it goes past Yellowstone. It's a gorgeous drive. Like, this is such an awesome drive, but I'm losing two days where I can't edit, produce the show, like, do all the other things. I'm just, like, sitting in the car the whole time. Whereas if we do it together, we create content. I can edit, you listen, listen to music, whatever.

Zach (22:43)

Oh, yeah. No, there's no world in which I abandon you to do this on your own. That's. That's not an option.

Chris (22:49)

Yeah, I know there are times where it would be fun, and there's times where it would just be stressful, but I think the Valhalla is such a rad opportunity, and I understand they're not going to have press cars. Of course not, Doug. It's just the liability is insane. Yeah, it seems. It seems. It's like. It's a very good problem to have, but it seems like the press car access might take the cake here.

Zach (23:14)

I think going on the Valhalla program because you. It's not like, look, let's be honest, if it was a Ferrari program, I'd be like, I'm spending a lot of money to go to Ice race. I really want to enjoy that, you know? But Aston's programs, you drive a lot. It's a lot of time, you know, Like. And I'm not talking about the cars. Forget the cars, Rory. Cars, anyone's cars. Forget that. I'm talking about an international program. If I'm flying my ass all the way to Spain for two days, which is, on the one hand, baller, and on the other hand, exhausting I want. I want a lot of seat time in the car. I mean, that's why I want to go. I don't. I don't. And Aston doesn't fuck around with that kind of stuff. I've been everything I've ever gone on with them. It's tons of seat time.

Chris (24:03)

Yeah. You get a lot of driving. You get a lot of. You get a lot of content opportunities, but you get a lot of good content opportunities with. I mean, the only one I've been on, like they said, here you go. Like, you have four hours of open track, no one else.

Zach (24:16)

The coffee machine has just started cleaning itself. I'm sorry for everybody that has to listen to that.

Chris (24:21)

It's funny. It's the second time it's done it. So what. I mean, this is a dirty machine.

Zach (24:26)

Fucking nasty. And of course, I'm drinking a cappuccino right now, so. About to get tuberculosis or something.

Chris (24:34)

I think that machine was made by Volkswagen because it's cleaning itself a lot. It runs pretty dirty. That's tough. So anyway, you know, getting a trailer would be rad because it opens the door for drift car, track car, whatever. Or just moving my car around when it's broken. And also, well, the drive would be gorgeous.

Zach (24:52)

For the record, I don't think one is contingent on the other. The deal was not. I'm. I have to trailer the car to ice race in order to get the trailer. That's. That was a. That was a. They approached us about advertising. I was like, oh, good timing, because I have to get a car to, you know, far away. There's a million other things we could do with a trailer. But. And it really mean. You know what?

Chris (25:20)

It's too bad my wife got a job because otherwise if we. If we all three went, like, she and I would tow the car back, like, bring the dog. I saw the ice race is dog friendly. And then you could like, fly it with. To Valhalla. The car, not the actual, you know, mystical place. Yeah, that's funny.

Zach (25:42)

I don't know. So I'll. I'll wait until we. I've told all the parties about what the moving pieces are. Unfortunately, I think that probably the smart play is to just fly and, And. And do something else with a trailer. You know, like, we could. What? Because drift car, race car. We could actually get like side by side or like a Sierra, like something, you know, not street legal.

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Zach (28:33)

Something, you know, not street legal, that was very cheap and like insanely fun. You know, I think, I think like a Sierra would be kind of where it's at actually.

Chris (28:47)

Those are, you know, so rad. They started doing a hill climb class with them I think in Florida. Chris du Plessis, you know, formerly ran Monticello and now he runs one of the new country club tracks down In Florida.

Zach (29:00)

The one in Florida. I think it's called P1.

Chris (29:03)

Yeah. And they. They have Sierra cars there. And he's put up some videos of running hill climbs with them, which seems like the funnest thing you could do. Like running one of those at a small hill climb or Pikes Peak or Virginia City hill climb would be so rad for a hill.

Zach (29:19)

A tarmac hill climb. I. I'd rather run a legends car. If we're talking about small motorcycle powered stupid, stupid cars. A Sierra car is set up for dirt that's not set up for tarmac. You want to drive down a dirt.

Chris (29:33)

I think they work for both and they have long travel. So if the road is kind of jittery, it's almost like a rally car.

Zach (29:40)

But I think on Instagram a guy put 35s on a Sierra. It might have been. I don't think it was a. It's not the kind of thing that was. What AI. It was just a Sierra with bigger tires on it. Like it didn't seem normally.

Chris (29:52)

They look like a regular wheels. That's amazing.

Zach (29:55)

Yeah, I think he just put bigger wheels and bigger tires. It looked like. I mean it looked like they were like regular, you know, four runner tires or something. But on a Sierra they look pretty beasty.

Chris (30:04)

I mean the buggies are doing well at King of Hammers. Well, what we could do because the Sierras are small and so are the legends cars is we could bring a Sierra car and a legends car to king to a Virginia city hill climb and we'd see who would run quicker. I think that's a fantastic idea. It would get 10.

Zach (30:21)

One of us would win and the other would die. Yeah. No, it would all it would get. It would get single digit views.

Chris (30:29)

I'm down. Yeah, exclude.

Zach (30:32)

We're gonna exclusively do things that get no traffic from here on out. Just saying. Not because that's what we're choosing to do. That's just. Yeah, that's just where we are.

Chris (30:41)

Yeah, that's where we're headed anyway, so might as well really lean in.

Zach (30:45)

Yeah, buddy. So like we might as well do Sierra cars or something, right?

Chris (30:49)

Yeah, that's a good idea. What do Sierra's gonna for the Echo Rspec. These are sold for 85,000. What?

Zach (30:58)

That's how much they cost.

Chris (31:00)

These are the. I think Echo R spec. Is this the. This is the new electric one. I think a used echo s. He's 48. That's.

Zach (31:09)

Why is that so much? Isn't a Sierra car or isn't A legends car, like 20 grand. That's where we need to be.

Chris (31:15)

Yeah, that's what we want.

Zach (31:17)

That's too expensive. I thought these things were cheap.

Chris (31:19)

Cheap?

Zach (31:19)

I must be wrong. Like, legends cars are like 25 grand. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe I was wrong. Anyway, yeah, once we have a trailer, it opens the door to all manner of silliness, but then it's a slippery slope because then I gotta buy a truck, you know?

Chris (31:41)

That's true.

Zach (31:42)

Well, I mean, yeah, there's. There's all kinds of like legitimate business reasons to buy a truck, but, but.

Chris (31:48)

You know, but you got to make sure that you really need one for moving things around. Do you want to move. Do you guys want to move things around, all that stuff? That's, that's a lot.

Zach (31:57)

Not really. Not when you say you guys. If you mean like wccs, like. No, I do not want to trailer people's around.

Chris (32:04)

No, that's what I mean.

Zach (32:04)

Because right now, I mean right now I make money on transport. You know what I mean? Like right now, like, if I, If I book a flatbed for a client, like, I get, I get a 20 rip on that and, and the flatbed company assumes all the risk. So like, why do I want to trailer anybody's shit around? Like, no, I want to trailer my own places so that like, I can take the Manx on vacation or whatever. But, you know.

Chris (32:33)

I think it's harder to make the business case for TST alone. It's a lot hard.

Zach (32:41)

Well, only if you get a truck. Truck to get a truck. No, it doesn't make any sense.

Chris (32:46)

Long term test vehicle. Matt Farah, that's the pitch we have to make.

Zach (32:50)

Well, the. I mean, look, these trailers are light. That's true. There could be a long term test vehicle with a commitment to tow the trailer around for certain number of times. I mean, we could, I mean, look, we could, you know, try to. I mean, this would be a huge waste of money, but we could like try to like race in some kind of a series, you know, or, or, or something, I bet.

Chris (33:15)

Well, a legend series is probably a pretty, pretty cheap entry. You know, you can get a. Use one of those for like $12,000. Right?

Zach (33:23)

So I would ask. I would ask Graham to lend us one for.

Chris (33:26)

That's a better idea.

Zach (33:28)

Yeah, that's exactly that. See, maybe that's the thing. Maybe we could find hill climbs in California, have Graham send us a legends car and just take that thing around and run hill climbs in it. Like that could be really fun if if, if that's a thing that actually exists, I mean other than the Virginia City hill climb, like I don't know what hill climbs exist.

Chris (33:49)

Well, there was a NorCal, there's a NorCal legend series, so.

Zach (33:52)

Oh, really?

Chris (33:53)

There are races here? Yeah, that was last year.

Zach (33:57)

Oh, okay. Well, more further research is, is warranted but like not a terrible plan there, I mean there, there could be an argument for a long term test vehicle. There's also like, I don't, I don't want one but like if I, I wouldn't buy a truck but if I, if I had to get some kind of SUV with it with towing capacity like to use as a car, like it wouldn't be ideal for me. But like I, you know, at least it would be like a multi purpose thing, not just like a truck that like sits there collecting dust for the other 50 weeks a year. I'm not towing, you know.

Chris (34:35)

Very good point. Yeah.

Zach (34:38)

But either way a free trailer sounds money. Yeah, nice trailer. Like enclosed, enclosed race hauler, like. Yeah, no, it's sweet. Like you could, you, it's like you could like do things with it.

Chris (34:52)

You could do a lot more with that. Like we could, you could take it camping if you wanted to freeze to death. I've told that story before.

Zach (34:57)

I mean that would, Yeah, I, I, you know, as much as I like carbon monoxide poisoning, it's a good time. I just don't really think it's.

Chris (35:04)

You got to get the mixture right. You know, it's just like a two stroke engine. You just really got to get that mixture right. Don't do that at home folks. You've. Yeah.

Zach (35:12)

No, if you're going to do inhalants, it should be pure nitrous oxide and very small. No, you shouldn't do that though. The. I was out, I, I was out yesterday. I pulled over to the side of the road in the desert to get a photo of the car and pee. And as I walked to the edge of the dirt turnout, I saw one of those big nitrous tanks. They're doing that, they're just selling now. It's like the size of a 2 liter bottle. Hell, I can't believe you can just buy. I mean like, yeah, nitrous oxide has been like legal but like we had to go to like a shady ass like industrial grade chemical store that like supplied dentist's office and like lie to them to get that. You shouldn't be able to just walk into a store.

Chris (35:57)

That's how you buy it. We talked about this before that Walmart was selling them online for a little while. I don't know if they knew what they were selling, but it was, you know, that's called like happy something. Very colorful labels. Yeah.

Zach (36:11)

There should be. There should not be such a thing as direct to consumer nitrous tanks. If you want. If you want a tank, you should have to know a guy who will rent you one for a party. Like, that's.

Chris (36:27)

I agree. I. I wonder what the business. The argument was when they got the laws changed or the rules relaxed. Like what. How strong was that pitch? How good?

Zach (36:36)

There were no rules. No, there's no. There were no rules changed. A guy just interpreted those rules that you have to call it a food additive and was like, you know, it doesn't say what size you could sell in. It was a food additive.

Chris (36:53)

Let's go. I'm just going to sprinkle this on my pizza. That's.

Zach (36:57)

No, they sell it as like for flavored, like flavored whipped cream. Like for you. For infusing drinks and stuff. That's how they.

Chris (37:04)

Yeah. I bought it by accident. Once I told that story. I meant to buy CO2 cartridges. I ordered nitrous by accident. Truly. And I gave them away to a friend of mine because I was like, this is not what I need.

Zach (37:15)

So it's like to the beverage you were trying to make.

Chris (37:18)

Well, I was trying to make the carbonated grapes that we used to make back in the day at the Playa House. Fantastic.

Zach (37:22)

Those are so good.

Chris (37:24)

Magical. Amazing addition.

Zach (37:26)

So does the. Do we have. We have. We informed the audience about the greatness of carbonated grapes.

Chris (37:32)

They should. It's a quick, easy thing and it's. It looks like magic.

Zach (37:37)

It tastes like magic too. It's more important than even look like magic. So basically what you do is you get a thing called a whipping siphon, which is basically one of those like old school seltzer slash whipped cream containers like you'd seen an old timey movie. It's like a big metal or glass thing with like a big trigger and a nozzle and you screw a single CO2 cartridge onto it. I'm sure Zach has a photo. There it is. And so the main thing that this is is is to use either CO2 or nitrous to create like foams or whatever. But another thing you can do with it is you could put a bunch of grapes in there in the thing. Grapes in the whipping siphon. And then put some apple juice in there with the grapes and then you get CO2, I guess. Did you try it with nitrous. Did it work?

Chris (38:31)

I didn't even try it, so I haven't tried it. Maybe it would work.

Zach (38:35)

It definitely works with CO2. So you then fill this, the whipping siphon, with a lot. Not, you know, a full thing of CO2. You just. You attach, it goes. And you bleed out a little bit of the air, and then you let it sit in the fridge for, what was it, like, two hours? Maybe a couple hours?

Chris (38:55)

Yeah, something like that. And nature's rocks, people call it.

Zach (38:59)

Yeah. Make them around lunchtime, and they're ready around dinner time. And then you bleed out the gas and. And for about, I don't know, 15 minutes, the grapes become carbonated, like bubbly, like. So you eat one and pop it, and it's like a. Like pop rocks and it bubbles inside the grape. It's awesome.

Chris (39:22)

It's really cool. Delicious. It tastes really good. It's got this great mouth feel, and it just. It's very. It's a very impressive dessert that's not very complicated, but it's, like, healthy ish, too.

Zach (39:33)

I mean, it's just grapes and apple juice. There's nothing else in there. So it's not super. Super overly sweet. You know, if someone wants a. But there.

Chris (39:41)

There.

Matt Farah (39:41)

That's.

Zach (39:42)

That's a real, like, impress your friends trick.

Chris (39:44)

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Zach (39:46)

If you're in college and you happen to be having a molly night, let me just say that that is a great end to a molly night. Ask me how I know that. Given to people on mushrooms, a loser minds.

Chris (40:07)

Depending on where they're at in that particular journey, they might be like, get this food away from me.

Zach (40:11)

Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be like, what's demon food?

Chris (40:14)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Zach (40:16)

Well, why'd you.

Chris (40:17)

Why'd you do that to the grape?

Zach (40:20)

Demon food. The. The E ray. Speaking of, I wanted to circle back on that real quick. Just the E ray. We'll talk about it in full when we get back. But. But I have to say, 97% of the time, it's the same as a stingray. You don't plug it in, and you don't really drive around with the engine off. When you get in and turn it on, the engine turns on, and when you turn it off, the engine turns off. And it's essentially a C8Z51. 95% of the time, if you get. Get to like, 3/4 throttle, you get. You activate the front axle and it. And it pulls harder. But besides that, I mean, it looks. And it looks better. The body Color, you know, stuff looks, looks really nice.

Chris (41:14)

Does it do any torque fill like when, you know, while accelerating, I mean?

Zach (41:19)

Well, it doesn't have a, it only has one E motor and it's on the front axle. It doesn't have a gearbox motor generator at all. The gasoline powertrain and the electric are completely separate, so you don't get any E boost at all unless you either have like over 50, 60% throttle input and, or you have a traction discrepancy between front and rear.

Chris (41:46)

Other than that, it seems like it's more oriented towards traction at full acceleration and then in slippery conditions. I think what I meant is, you know, if you floor it, but you're low in your RPM range so you're still building your power and torque towards those peaks. Does it fill in that a little bit? Do you sense the difference compared to normal?

Zach (42:06)

Yes.

Chris (42:06)

Okay.

Zach (42:07)

Yeah. It, it adds power at the low end of the gasoline power band. Yes. And so effectively you can, you know, if you're in manual mode, let's just say, and you're kind of puttering around in sixth gear at like 50 miles an hour and, and you, you know, you, you hit the pedal. It definitely gives you a lot more torque at 2000 RPM than you otherwise would have. It's good at that. It's good at helping to make that quick pass or, or you know, it helps you avoid a double downshift. You know, things like, things like that. But it and it. And if you accelerate in the corner, in a corner you can feel, you know, the torque pulling the front, the way that you have the wheels pointed. But at the same time the steering is really heavy. Even in tour mode. That's got adjustable weight and it's, it's, the steering's really heavy and it's really darty. It's got 275 fronts which are, that's a big wide tire for a mid engine car. You know, the Ferrari 458 has like 255s if not 245s and so, and even I think the ZR1 only is like 265 or maybe 255 at the front. I think the extra weight of the battery and the motor and all that stuff, the power unit up there might necessitate a wider tire. But cut it catches ruts in the road and so it darts a lot, which is not something that mid engine cars tend to do because usually they don't have very wide front tires.

Chris (43:49)

Let's see, the front tires of the ZR1. ZR1X is 275.

Zach (43:56)

Well, that's the X. That's the all wheel drive. So we want the rear wheel drive car. If the rear wheel drive car has narrower front tires or maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Because the ZR1 was darty also. But they told us it had like the racetrack alignment on it. And when you and I drove that black Z06, what we called the touring spec, it wasn't Darty because it had a road alignment on it.

Chris (44:21)

Yeah, very true.

Zach (44:22)

This E ray could. Could, because it's a press car, could have a racetrack alignment on it. Although given that GM has openly positioned this as sort of the road trippers Corvette, given that the steering, I mean, literally this is a two hands on the wheel car almost all the time, which is odd.

Chris (44:46)

That's weird. I wonder if it is alignment, because the z. So the ZR1 front tires, regular ZR1 are also 275s in the front.

Zach (44:53)

Oh, okay.

Chris (44:54)

So it's the same thing, so. Or it's just interacting with the E motor for some reason. Maybe the programming is a little bit weird. It could be.

Zach (45:02)

I mean, it doesn't necessarily torque vector at the front. It goes. Well, it kind of does, but it's a motor into a differential torque vector. It's. So it's not like. It's not like having. Here's what I'm trying to say. Sorry, I wasn't very good at saying this. Unlike the Porsche 918, the Acura NSX, the Revuelto and the Temerario, which have two motors up front and have that sort of magical steering, this doesn't have that. The steering feels sort of like a regular Corvette, but heavier in a way that I don't love and Dartier in a way that I don't really think benefits this particular setup. But with. I'm going to leave open that it could be a press car alignment thing because.

Chris (45:52)

Because I was curious if it's a weight thing. So the Internet says that the. The electric drive unit weighs 80 pounds. Overall, the car weighs 300 pounds more than the regular like Z51. So. And that a lot of that mass is obviously in the middle where the battery is. So I'm wondering if like a hundred pounds of more pressure. No, I know, but it's still a couple hundred pounds, you know, more for everything. But it's. But I was like, is there £300 pressing on the nose, therefore pressing on those front tires. That's making it super. Dirty, but 80 pounds doesn't seem like a ton. So maybe to your point, it is a press car alignment thing.

Zach (46:32)

It could be press car alignment thing. And, and it's. Maybe I should just follow up with them when I give the car back because I, I, I like a lot of it. The seat is comfortable, the ride is nice. You know, the, you know, they got rid of the wall of buttons. The new, the new interior does not have the wall of buttons anymore. The new interior, you know, it's still got the square wheel, which I don't love. But outside of that, the new interior is really nice. Their button layout, the H VAC layout, really nice. I really like. It's a nice place to, to spend time. But 1300 miles with it with two hands on the wheel, you know, trying to kind of fight it to the ruts is like my, these like, these muscles in here, like in between my like man boobs and my armpits, like those muscles get real tight from doing that after for like hours and hours, you know.

Chris (47:26)

Oh, just. Yeah, your little upper peck.

Zach (47:29)

Yeah. That's why when I do these trips in like, like Bentleys and I'm just one hand on top.

Chris (47:36)

Right. That's what they're meant to be. Very relaxing.

Zach (47:38)

I'm just trying to figure out what to do this trip in, in April when it's actually time. I'm thinking I'm leaning towards a Cadillac CT4 Black Wing, I think would actually be. If they still have one of those in the fleet. I think that would be kind of a delight, actually.

Chris (47:55)

That is such a good car. I mean, it's the better M3. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic thing. That's kind of, it's always overshadowed by the CT5 Blackwing, obviously, of course, but.

Zach (48:09)

I think the smaller car is actually. Yeah, there's the new interior.

Chris (48:12)

Yeah, that's much better.

Zach (48:14)

So you got the double cup holders, you've got the new gear selector. The gear selector is the same. The new drive mode selector, it doesn't have the sort of ambiguous hockey puck anymore. It has just this big toggle for your drive modes. And then it's got the row of hard buttons for the climate stuff. It's got a row of digital hard buttons above that for like seat heater and what, like vents you're coming at. And then you've got your, you know, your touchscreen, which is similar to how it's been with that. But I never had a problem with GM's touchscreen.

Chris (48:46)

No, that was good. And I think that Hockey puck for the drive modes always seemed like too big a wrench for the bolt being turned. You know, it just seemed like heavy spring things kind of difficult to turn. And maybe they're trying to. They go, oh, that's. That's what feels expensive. But it just seemed like so much to just control the. Just to cycle through drive modes. When even Corvette themselves in the past made that a much simpler button. It just took up so much space. I didn't get it.

Zach (49:13)

Yeah, yeah. And you know, the one that. The one that I'm driving is expensive. It's 133,000 bucks. It's a lot of money for. For something that feels really almost exactly the same as the Z51 car most of the time. Although it does look a lot better with the wider, wider body and the paint. Paint to match, you know, everything. So it's a cool car, though. I mean, I think I. I hope that it finds its. Its target audience. But for me, for the same money, you know, I'm a Z06 no wing guy. You give me. You give me a Z06 road driving spec, and that's pretty. That's pretty great. And, and you know, in two years, when a ZR1's 100 grand, boy, is that going to be something.

Chris (50:06)

You know, it might be a little longer than that, but they'll get there eventually.

Zach (50:12)

I bet you it's not. Well, it took from 2023 to 2025 for Z06s to get there, so I. I bet you it's two, three years. CR1s will be there too, for sure.

Chris (50:24)

Remember the markup on Z06s? Like, if you got one early at. If you got one at list, you could flip it for over two.

Zach (50:31)

It was like 400 grand.

Chris (50:32)

Yeah.

Zach (50:32)

Crazy.

Chris (50:33)

It was crazy. Really, really crazy.

Zach (50:36)

Should we go to the people? Because my list is over.

Chris (50:39)

Yeah. Do you want to talk about the insurance thing?

Zach (50:42)

Oh, yeah, let's do that. I forgot. You're right. Yeah, you're right. So I just saw there's a company called Lemonade, which is not an insurance company I've heard of.

Matt Farah (50:53)

Maybe.

Zach (50:53)

Have you heard of them, Zach?

Chris (50:54)

I have. They were started by this guy's name, David something. He. He's the most reasonable voice in my opinion, on the all in podcast with Chamath Polihapitiya, David Sachs, and Jason Calcanis. So it's David Freeberg. I think so. Tech engineer, made a lot of money and then he started this Lemonade company.

Zach (51:17)

By the way, all three of those other People you just mentioned are among the worst people on the planet.

Chris (51:22)

I agree. And I liked the show when they first started it and within two years became, in my opinion, David Sacks just repeating talking points and makes sense that now he has the job he has.

Zach (51:36)

But David Sacks was a horrible human and the other two of them have the worst takes on stuff of fucking anybody. They have all consistently horrific takes on any issue.

Chris (51:47)

Yeah, yeah, I thought, I think in the very beginning it was okay. And it quickly became we're just billionaires and that's all we care. And David Freeman always seemed like the more measured voice. He's like, he always, he always counter, was the counterpoint to so many of them and I just couldn't listen to it anymore. But anyway, he started this company called Lemonade, which based on the article is going to kind of leapfrog from, you know, other insurance companies have put the dongle in and they'll track your driving and they'll price you accordingly. And I think that's what they're going to do. But now they want to involve. Their insurance is specifically designed to work with Tesla fsd.

Zach (52:26)

Yeah. So on the one hand it's interesting to see an insurance company that is in theory willing to cover a private user while using a semi autonomous system. Having said that, a couple things here. One, it only really sounds like progress because it's actually not like what we want here is for the person who designs, manufactures and sells that software to be covering it. This is still an insurance policy that you, the end user purchases for your car. So even though it integrates with FSD in the way, a similar way probably that one of those OBD dongles integrates with your telemetry, maybe a little bit more tighter. This is still some, this is not something Tesla is buying to provide for people using it. This is still something you buy, so you're still responsible. This is a level two system and you're responsible for what happens in this car whether you're using FSD or not. Okay, so what they're saying is they're, they're using Lemonade's usage based risk prediction models to distinguish between human on autonomous driving. Driving. That doesn't sound like it sounds like they should. The car should just tell this thing between human and fsd, shouldn't it?

Chris (54:04)

Zach?

Zach (54:05)

That doesn't sound, that sounds like. Right.

Chris (54:07)

Well, I assumed that the car would talk to Lemonade and say we're in FSD mode now. We're not in FSD mode now. I mean, so Lemonade's Pitch is that the car with FSD, with, you know, quote, a car that sees 360 degrees, never gets drowsy and reacts in milliseconds, can't be compared to a human. End quote. That was the co founder, president of Lemonade.

Zach (54:32)

Okay, read the rest of that quote, please.

Chris (54:34)

So, quote, our existing pay per mile product has given us something no traditional insurer has. A unique tech stack designed to collect massive amounts of real driving data for precise dynamic pricing. Lemonade autonomous car was built on that foundation. So they analyze how you drive, they price your insurance based on your risk profile. When they, they're saying by bringing in fsd, which drives in theory the same across all the cars, removes more of that risk. And up here they say Lemonade is claiming a 50% cut in per mile rates for Tesla owners that have the company's semi autonomous FSD system in use.

Zach (55:18)

So I would really like to see how this works because what they're saying in some of these quotes is some real bullshit and exhibits some huge blind spots. For instance, go back to that quote you just read about the car seeing 360 and reacting in milliseconds. While yes, the car can do that, fucking living in the real world shows you that also these cars can do wildly unpredictable things that a human would never do straight up. Like, a human wouldn't do that. Only a fucking haywire ass computer would make that type of choice. Second, I don't know if there's any actual data outside of the bullshit from Elon Musk that says that cars using FSD are in fact safer than cars not using fsd.

Chris (56:21)

I don't know. You know, we like Jason Camisa, we talked about this briefly. He said the new FSD is much improved over the first version. So the early versions of what his experience was one.

Zach (56:32)

That's not Dan. His experience was one ride. Right.

Chris (56:35)

But I'm also saying that our experience with FSD from two years ago when it was first launched, and we were seeing a lot of problems when people were posting their videos on YouTube, was also somewhat anecdotal. So I think we need to see, you know, updated data from 2025, 2020 and into 2026 that shows either a reduction in human interactions or like saves for a reduction in accidents and stuff, because previously the cars were driving through red lights, making weird right turns, drifting out of lanes, doing a lot of things like, as you said, that a human driver would not choose to do in those moments.

Zach (57:12)

And yeah, and also, like, you literally cannot trust Elon Musk. Like his num. His report about himself and his company was bullshit. And so there is no independent authority as far. I mean, nitsa. But, but, but really they haven't settled anything that shows that this is in fact safer. And in fact, in many cases it's not safer because it can lead to complacency, which is what you see a lot of the times when these people die, they over trust the south, the systems and they're not paying attention. And they are supposed to have been taken over because it is a level 2 system, it's not an autonomous system. And I mean, just like I was saying. But I talked to my friends in Florida last week. They're regular folks. Half of them drive Teslas, and they're all just like, well, I'm a bad driver and it's better than me. And like, that's like not good math.

Chris (58:15)

Well, I think an additional question would be what does.

Zach (58:19)

Right here, that quote you've highlighted. Okay, I'd like this, says Tesla's driven with FSD are involved in far fewer accidents. Then what, by what percentage, under what circumstances? Like, if you have that data, it would be incredibly beneficial to share it because Tesla hasn't been forthcoming about that data.

Chris (58:43)

Yeah, and I also am curious what Lemonade's coverage is, should an accident happen? Because one of the things Tesla is unfortunately famous for is an FSD accident will happen, often tragically, and then they will blame the driver and say that FSD was disconnected moments before the crash and.

Zach (59:02)

Well, it doesn't matter because this insurance is your insurance. It's not Tesla saying, we have this insurance for our system. So you're in.

Chris (59:11)

Yeah, but I'm wondering if Lemonade is saying FSD is involved in your accidents when, you know, if another situation arises where the FSD disengages milliseconds before an accident happens.

Zach (59:22)

Is.

Chris (59:22)

Is Lemonade going to say, oh, well, that wasn't FSD driving, that was you driving. Will there. Will their terms be changed? Is there fine print like that? I don't know.

Zach (59:32)

Yeah. And I mean, last thing is any insurance that black boxes your car can only be bad for you. Like it.

Chris (59:51)

You.

Zach (59:52)

You do not want your insurance company to have that kind of data about what you were doing in your car at other times other than the second you got into an accident and need to make a claim. I'm just saying, as a consumer advocate here, like all those things that you put the OBD shit in your car. Those things. People. People. Those things. Really? Really, they. They can look at things as simple as going a few miles an hour over the speed limit or a variety, driving more at night. If you drive a bunch at night, they can go, well, your risk profile has gone up because you drive more at night.

Chris (60:32)

Right? The pricing adjustment, it will work. It can work against you. And that's pretty much why it's there is to really look at you and go, oh, well, you're in the strange case. You do these things, your prices actually went up because we see xyz. Yeah, I agree with you.

Zach (60:47)

Yeah, I don't hate the idea. And now Lemonade's, Lemonade's pitch is per mile insurance. And so look, if I got a whole bunch of cars, I don't drive very many miles on each one per year. So that could potentially be a very appealing way to price insurance. I'm not against a per mile insurance policy at all. But I, I don't. The coffee machine's calling back there. I don't, I don't, I don't see anything, I don't see any evidence that indicates it is actually safer. And I don't see any evidence that over time this company will not use this data against their own customers. Because why wouldn't they Thing, you know, that's what insurance companies do.

Chris (61:38)

I mean, very true.

Zach (61:39)

It says imagine like you ought to go get, imagine you went to get one of those super expensive body scans, right? Like the full body joint, you know, where they look for cancer and whatever and you pay for it. Gotta keep cash. You go to a different city than you live in, imagine that just like automatically went to your insurance company like for better or worse, you know what I mean? Like you don't, you don't want that like at all. You know what I mean? Like you want, you want to be able to be in control of what that company knows about, about you in that moment, you know what I mean?

Chris (62:15)

So sure, I think that we'll, we'll see how many customers are interested in this knowing that, you know, it's because people love convenience and savings and you know, if the carrot is big enough, a lot of people will hand over that data if they're advertising, you know, 50% savings for a lot of people, that's a really significant amount of money and enough to just hand over their data. But it's only true and Teslas are.

Zach (62:42)

Already like incredibly expensive to insure. So if you got with insurance on your Tesla, you know, maybe it is appealing, but I just, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit in that press release. A lot of I Just doesn't. Nothing about it seems good to me.

Chris (63:02)

Let's see. Cards anyway.

Zach (63:05)

Should we? Huh.

Chris (63:06)

I was gonna look up car insurance rates over time, but it's based on inflation, so I'm sure they're.

Zach (63:12)

Yeah, that would require some extra. Extra mathing we don't need to be doing right now. Let's go to the people over@patreon.patreon.com the Smoking Tire Podcast. We love you guys. Keeping the ship. Ship floating down the river in times of drought. You. You have provided the buoyancy on this particular ship. And yeah, it's been a good time. When we share clips of the podcast on the Instagram, I don't think the outside world understands the username game. The username game that's happened over there. Zach posts the clip and I'm like. And two in the pink, one in.

Chris (63:47)

The stink says, yeah, yeah, it was great. People are catching on to the game. It's. It's fantastic.

Zach (63:53)

Good Internet.

Chris (63:54)

Our patrons have invented their own game, and it's really fun. It's called Make a username that makes us laugh.

Zach (64:01)

And I can't read them because Zach's in a different state right now. So you get. Get on it, habibi.

Chris (64:07)

So these are gonna be leftovers from the last show we didn't get to. Czechoslovakian interior decorator says he loved your monologue about how much you want to smoke cigarettes in a yellow bird in Tokyo. Is there another car road heater combo you would consider coming out of retirement for?

Zach (64:23)

Oh, there's so many. There's so many times when having a fucking grit in a car is the right thing to do. Crossing the desert in a Rolls Royce or driving any. Driving a Rolls Royce at night with the starfield ceiling. That's the shit.

Chris (64:40)

I think that's more cigar car.

Zach (64:42)

That's a cigar car. That's a cigar car. I mean, a yellow bird in Tokyo. Commuting is, like, about as good as it gets, I would say.

Chris (64:53)

Like.

Zach (64:53)

Oh, like wall. You know, wall. Ooh, I'm gonna have to come back to you on that one. I don't know if I can top it, though. But I would say that. That off while off roading. Slow off roading with a grit and in, like an open, open vehicle. That's lovely. That's very good.

Chris (65:21)

I feel like that's more a joint situation because it's, you know. Well, I guess they both. They all come from the earth.

Zach (65:26)

Can't. Can't be endorsing things like that, even though. And when there Are no roads, there are no laws.

Chris (65:32)

Well, you'd be a passenger, of course, in that situation.

Zach (65:35)

Of course.

Chris (65:36)

No, I was just so set and setting this person. Nobody cares about my G70. Doug DeMiro on his last podcast said he doesn't understand the VR6 hype. And to him it's just a way to market an unremarkable V6 engine. Do we see it as another V6 or do we think the engine is special?

Zach (65:56)

I think it's a weird engine. I think it's weird and interesting and weird and interesting is enough.

Chris (66:03)

I think it has a unique sound and the big thing about it is it's one cylinder head. So people, you know, go on the Internet. Basically, if you look at it from the top, it's like take an inline six and every other cylinder, just move them a few inches apart like you were, you know, spreading your fingers like that. So it's not a big V, it's a very narrow V, but it can use one cylinder head and that leads to the interesting sound it has. And I think it's unique and cool. And the biggest thing for me was I was into Volkswagens in the 90s. Turbo technology wasn't great and so this was like a cool sounding quote. Big engine that were in these cars and nowadays it wouldn't make as much sense as having, you know, the 2 liter EA888 engine is amazing, but back then it was like, it wasn't good.

Zach (66:49)

Yeah, I think objectively it's not a great way to make effective power. But when you no longer care about going fast to enjoy a car, weird is enough.

Chris (67:04)

Ryan Alexander asks, what is our favorite bespoke engine from a brand that didn't make it to the wider product line. His example is Jaguar never used a detuned version of the XJ220 engine.

Zach (67:17)

Bespoke. Well, there's some, there's a bunch of good options. You've got the 959 engine, the sequential turbo, which is a bad. But you understand why it never made it anywhere else because it was incredibly complicated and silly. I guess you did get lesser RB engines in smaller Skylines, so that doesn't count.

Chris (67:40)

And I was thinking McLaren F1, but we got, we got lesser powered BMW V12s in PL, you know, in the eight class.

Zach (67:47)

Yeah, and you got, yeah, and you got the, the, you know, the S54, which is the, the half of that engine. Really. Audi has never really made any like low powered five cylinders, like all the five cylinders and the RSS. Those are those are pretty unique I guess. The V10 did make it into the S6 and S8, so that did that made it into the V12. Lambo's never put the V12 oh the LM002, but that's like 40 years ago almost at this point, so.

Chris (68:21)

And now two liter, four liters are so good they have no reason to. A lot, a lot of times with this stuff it's a packaging thing too. You know, you build a, you build the car around the V12. You can't put a lesser version into. I mean one Lamborghini doesn't make, you know, a, a commuter sedan or crossover. But you can't fit that in there. It just, it straight up won't fit. Arya Zand says he liked the episode we did talking about how vantage values are confusing. He's got a 2010 six speed V12 that has barely cracked 100 grand mark in Dubai. Are some marks just going to plateau regardless of the drivetrain?

Zach (69:00)

They plateau for longer Aston's. You know, if A Ferrari takes 25 years to go around to be the appreciation cycle, aston's take like 40 years. Like those 80, the late the 70s and 80s Aston V8 Vantage that now is like 300, 400,000 bucks. Those things were like, those things were 80 grand forever. Way long after Ferraris of the same time period and Porsches of the same time period took off. Aston's need much longer to be appreciated. And that's like really all through their company's history. I would still give me, you give me a 2010 V12 Vantage with a six speed. That is a fucking hold. That's a hold. Mark my words.

Chris (69:52)

It's also a fantastically fun thing to hold on to. You know, you're not bored. It's not just an investment car like that is a fun, exciting thing to drive around. Saab93 AeroPress Launch says. How long do you run cars? How or how long is a long enough drive to keep a car happy? They have a two and a half mile commute and they don't like to drive their M3 on it because it just doesn't seem like it gets warmed up enough. So like when you start cars at wccs, how long do you guys idle them for?

Zach (70:22)

Well, when we're doing our startup and warm ups like for the shop, we run them until the gauges go up to operating temperature. When I'm driving an old car of mine, I wouldn't. Two and a half miles is not enough. I mean I feel like 10 has got to be like a minimum. I wouldn't commute in a very old car if it was only two and a half miles. I don't think the car would get up to temperature enough. I really don't.

Chris (70:51)

Probably not.

Zach (70:52)

I feel bad.

Chris (70:53)

Drive my car to your house when I drive your house or, or to wccs. Yeah.

Zach (70:57)

It's all, it's all so close. Yeah, it's. I do, I do too. I, I, I won't, I won't drive my, my Spider between my house and the office because it's too close and, and nothing will get warmed up. The Manx gets warmed up faster. The Manx can get to operating temperature really fast and stays there, which is nice. Yeah. So that, that I can. But other than that I normally don't.

Chris (71:22)

Matt Paradigm Titty says, is there a car from childhood that we thought was incredible back then but turned out to be super lame as an adult?

Zach (71:33)

I don't know about super lame, but I always thought the Chevy Beretta was cool and I don't think that's aged particularly well.

Chris (71:41)

Yeah, I don't think it was a.

Zach (71:42)

Lot of those cars, like a lot of them 90s, late 80s and 90s sort of sporty coupes. Right. Just like sporty coupes that they don't make anymore. Like Pontiac Grand Prix gtp, you know, which was the supercharged, like wide, boy, you know, vaguely IMSA adjacent, you know, kind of kind of thing kind of.

Chris (72:05)

Fast and looked kind of tough. And then I remember when I finally valeted one when I once, you know, I was in college and I got in. I remember the whole interior like every instrument was kind of orangey red and yeah, they used a lot of very round injection molded plastic, much like the outside. And I went, this looks cheap now.

Zach (72:27)

Yeah.

Chris (72:27)

But like the engine was rad and the thing pulled pretty hard. But it just looked, it was just odd inside. Very, I don't almost like a concept car in a bad way.

Zach (72:37)

Well that whole, that whole 90s GM era of the injection molded plastic is just.

Chris (72:43)

Yeah.

Zach (72:44)

You know, even by the standards of, of the time that was, that was heinous. Even that even brand new. It was heinous. It was so bad. But like those, those types of cars when I was a kid when the, when the Dodge Avenger Coupe came out, I mean actually it looked kind of tough. Like if you didn't know any better, a Dodge Avenger and a Dodge Stealth were not that much different. You know, even though they like really were.

Chris (73:10)

Yeah, very true.

Zach (73:11)

Stealth was a 3000 GT effectively.

Chris (73:13)

I think the biggest thing is when I was a kid I assumed a loud V8 powered car was always quick ish. And then as an adult, like 80s Cadillacs, Suburbans, I mean things that sounded like dragsters and had, you know, 150 horsepower. Someone who works at a Subaru dealership said, truth be told, most of us at the dealership don't like the new Outback either. We talked about that on the last show. Panamera Bread says he's driven Cayman boxers in canyons but doesn't find them that exciting. He drove them on the track. Would that change their opinion? For reference, their canyon cars are an R33 GTR and a 911 SC and he drives them at like a 6, 7, 10 pace.

Zach (74:04)

No, I don't think a track would, would change your mind. I think you can get a feel for what a car is in, in a canyon and, and Boxsters and Caymans are, are great, they're great cars but they're not like for everybody. I mean I, I, I love a Cayman but I may not have bought one if it wasn't a GT4 or a Spider. You know, the extra little bit that you get with the GT4 and the spider to me is a, is a discernible difference. So if you're driving a regular 718 or an S, you know, okay, they're not going to be that fast, maybe not that exciting. If you drove a GT4 or a Spider you might feel differently but also like, like it's okay to not be into them like nobody said you had to. But there's, there's not a lot of really well made, reasonably affordable mid engine cars out there. And so you're, you're limited into, in your options in that sort of genre to really Lotus, Porsche did and what else? I mean nothing, nothing else really.

Chris (75:13)

Yeah, Corvette. It's also dynamically very different from what this person has. It might just not be for them. Sure.

Zach (75:18)

Yeah, it's okay. That's okay.

Chris (75:23)

Power. The irony of this question, this is from Power Stroke Till I Cummins. And they ask, that's a great username, good username. They say why are cars sexualized so much compared to other modes of transportation? You know, design, trim levels and parts are all subject to this push rod suspension. I mean that's just really the action that's not really sexualizing. But I do think, you know the trend of describing car like car design as like this voluptuous thing you want to, is something we've all done maybe earlier in our careers, but it feels like very old time and low hanging fruit.

Matt Farah (75:59)

Yeah.

Zach (76:00)

Cars and people both have curves. Okay. I don't know. I think, I think if you want to see horny, you're gonna see horny. You'll see horny if you're, if you're really horny, you're gonna see, you're gonna see titties everywhere.

Chris (76:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're 13. You go to the fruit section of the grocery store.

Zach (76:21)

Yeah, yeah.

Chris (76:23)

I think that, I think that's really what it is. I don't, you know, I'd have to ask a horny writer what they think of a train. And then we'd see if this theory holds water.

Zach (76:34)

I've seen that Francois kid. I would say it's not limited to scars.

Chris (76:39)

He gets more excited than anybody about anything. I'm almost jealous of that power. All right. Fully loaded diaper says I'm interested in purchasing either an E36 M3, a996 911 or a 997.19 11. I'm focused mainly on evaluating the potential repairs and maintenance, maintenance cost of each. What analogies would compare these in terms of painfulness. Like he says, is the M3A light kick in the shins while a996 is a shotgun to the chest? I don't think we need analogies. But like, let's talk about the costs of owning these three different German cars.

Zach (77:19)

Porsches are a lot more expensive than BMWs. I mean a lot of stuff is harder to access. I mean it. Did this person indicate wrenching themselves or paying somebody? Do they say I didn't see?

Chris (77:33)

No, they did not.

Zach (77:35)

Well, if you're doing it yourself, certainly the BMW is way, way easier than the Porsche E36s are. You know, fairly straightforward as far as European cars go and Porsche's. Everything is hidden. You need a lift, you need to get under there. Like that's, that's tough. If you have money for a 997, you should not be buying a 996. But, but they're not. One is not easier to. I, I, I, I, I don't think one is significantly more expensive to fix than the other. At the, at this point, you know, you're talking about a, a 20 year old Porsche versus a 17 year old Porsche. They're, they're going to be kind of a wash in terms of, I think.

Chris (78:18)

The only thing my, my brain goes to the, the, the construction of the interior of an E36 is notoriously bad and I think the Porsches are better made in that way so you have less bullshit that shakes apart so you'll save some money there. But you know, when the mechanicals go down or need maintenance, they're very expensive for sure. Yeah, let's see. Check engine light bulb remover club says where do we think the market is going for high performance SUVs? Who are the second and third owners of these? It seems unlikely it will ever be enthusiasts who buy a used one as a weekend toy.

Zach (78:53)

It well there's precedent for this. I mean there have been high performance SUVs on the market for you know, almost 30 years at this point that we don't, we don't need to speculate. They depreciate to zero. They end up in the junkyard occasionally they'll find a renaissance meaning like we o when overlanding Cayennes became popular the specifically the 04 and 05 turbos were bolstered because people wanted to turn them into overlanders whereas the the base and the S did not get that. So that was a sort of unforeseen thing and that was only the case because the first gen Cayennes had the off roading equipment and Most high performance SUVs don't have that anymore. So my prediction based on all available evidence is that these things will depreciate to zero.

Chris (79:50)

But, but I think there will always be a fan base because if there was a fan base that bought them new, that means there's going to be people that can't afford it new same as fast sedans, fast sports cars, fast anything people like horsepower and they will buy it when it become when it falls into their price range. What's up? We could end on this. Send Preludes one of the most clever names we've seen. There was a Reddit thread discussing sports car definition. What is our definition of a sports car?

Zach (80:19)

Our definition of a sports car?

Chris (80:22)

So on Reddit I guess people were ranging from hot hatches can be a sports car to no no no, it has to only be two seats and have a small trunk.

Zach (80:31)

I get. Let me just say I'm not annoyed at this person for send Preludes for asking the question. I understand why they would want our take on this but I get annoyed by the endless debate on places like Reddit and whatever over the definitions of stuff or things that are always like things that start with people are always saying that. How come people are always saying that these aren't as that my WRX isn't a sports car. So to me I Guess a sports car doesn't necessarily need to have two seats. It should have two doors. Should not be a sedan, and it should be a car that makes compromises in other areas for the benefit of higher performance. So it'll have a stiffer suspension, but it'll handle better. It'll have an inefficient engine that makes more power. It'll have specialized, you know, equipment that is for, that is, that is designed for either performance or engagement. But generally I would not call sport sedans or sporty SUV's sports cars. I would call coupes, convertibles. They could be big or they could be small and they could have a back seat or not. But I think it, I think sports car is defined as a vehicle that's compromised in terms of its practicality in order to be smaller and more compact for performance.

Chris (82:18)

I totally agree. I think it's similar to when like the term athlete. If someone describes themselves as an athlete, in my mind, their focus of their profession is a sport of some kind. But you can be an athletic person, but, you know, like your day job is accounting and whatever. So you have sporty attributes. The SUV can have sporty attributes or the sedan can have sporting or athletic attributes. But it was not, did not spend its time in the factory or all day trying to perfect itself to be, you know, an athlete or a sports car.

Zach (82:52)

Right. It's not, it's not the sporty version of the regular sedan or the sporty version of the regular suv. It's usually kind of its own dedicated, I don't want to say its own platform. But the Nissan Z, the Miata, the Mustang, these are not shrunken down versions of other things. It's, they're, they're, it's their own thing. That's kind of where I would define a sports car. I guess that's a little easier than saying, well, where would you define supercar and hypercar and all that kind of. And everyone sort of has their own definition of that. And I don't really give a shit where people draw those lines, but I think a sports car definitely starts, starts with being a two door Cooper convertible for sure. Right.

Chris (83:38)

Yeah. Because I think, I think the hypercar Subaru I think will keep the definition, will keep changing because power keeps changing and adjusting, you know.

Zach (83:45)

Yeah.

Chris (83:45)

Like a suit. A quote supercar from today has more power than a quote hypercar from 20 years ago.

Zach (83:50)

Sure.

Chris (83:51)

That, that has to be adjusted.

Zach (83:52)

Sure. All right.

Chris (83:54)

Okay. I think that was a good one to end on road and crankies, you go to the gym.

Zach (83:59)

I'm going to go to the gym. The gym is good. I'm going to get my room, finally go to the gym, go to bed early and wake up early as. And drive another 500 miles. Because apparently this is just what I do now. Apparently, I just lap the desert. Yeah. Thanks, everybody. Thank you to our patrons. We love you guys. Zach's going to somewhere else and I will be back for the podcast next week. We appreciate you. See you then. Bye. Do I need to record an intro?