Kyle Conner - Out of Spec Studios

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Smoking Tire – Episode Featuring Kyle Connor of Out of Spec Studios

Episode Details:

• Title: Kyle Conner - Out of Spec Studios
• Release Date: December 17, 2024
• Hosts: Matt Farah and Zack Klapman

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of The Smoking Tire, hosts Matt Farah and Zack Klapman welcome Kyle Connor from Out of Spec Studios. Known for his extensive experience with automotive content and his involvement in multiple YouTube channels, Kyle brings valuable insights into the world of electric vehicles (EVs), focusing on both mainstream and Chinese automotive innovations.

2. Electric G-Wagon: Features and Criticisms

[02:30] Matt Farah: Kyle begins by critiquing the impractical design of the AirPods holder on the back of the electric G-Wagon.

Kyle Connor ([02:32]): "Dude, that is the dumbest."

The hosts discuss the vehicle's performance, highlighting impressive features such as full self-driving capabilities and adaptations for rugged off-road use. Despite its drawbacks, the electric G-Wagon stands out as an appealing option within the Mercedes lineup.

[05:27] Matt Farah:

"I think that it's not only my favorite G wagon, but it's the only appealing electric Mercedes at all."

However, the G-Wagon suffers from significant inefficiency, averaging 1.9 miles per kilowatt-hour, and a somewhat misleading range indicator that overestimates its actual mileage.

3. Battery Performance and Degradation

A noteworthy topic is a recent study suggesting that EV batteries may last longer than previously anticipated, challenging the commonly pessimistic views surrounding battery degradation.

[04:43] Matt Farah:

"There was a study that came out that said we've been testing batteries wrong and so they're all going to last longer than we thought they were, which is good, actually."

4. Chinese Electric Vehicles: Innovation and Quality Concerns

Kyle delves into the realm of Chinese EVs, discussing models like the Wuling Bingo and the Xiaomi SU7. These vehicles offer competitive pricing but come with varied quality and performance levels.

[23:00] Kyle Connor:

"A Wuling Bingo. Which is like, I think s. I... $8,000."

While the Wuling Bingo is praised for its affordability and basic functionality, its build quality raises safety concerns.

[26:50] Matt Farah:

"It looks like a Taycan. It's like, hey, chatgpt, make me a Taycan with a McLaren Artura nose on it and a Hyundai Ioniq or a Hyundai Elantra N S. Right. Give or take."

The Xiaomi SU7 is highlighted for its impressive design and features but is criticized for brake issues and software reliability.

5. Charging Infrastructure and Supercharger Challenges

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the challenges and advancements in EV charging infrastructure, particularly focusing on Tesla's Supercharger network and its integration with non-Tesla vehicles.

[49:42] Kyle Connor:

"Shit on stuff. There's a lot of cut clip now. There are a lot of problems with this NACS transition. Technically it's now called J3400."

The transition to the NACS (J3400) standard aims to unify charging plugs but introduces compatibility issues, especially concerning voltage standards and cable limitations.

[53:07] Matt Farah:

"But is EA gonna be forced to switch to the other cables?"

The hosts express concerns over the current Supercharger network's ability to handle high-voltage EVs, leading to premature derating and inefficient charging sessions for certain models.

6. Electric Vehicles on the Track vs. Daily Use

Matt and Kyle explore the disparity between how EVs perform on track days compared to their daily driving capabilities.

[80:59] Matt Farah:

"Funny enough though, at a track, it's not like that the fire, assuming the person gets out of the car, it's not like the fire is that likely to burn the whole place down."

Despite advanced engineering, EVs face restrictions at many tracks, primarily due to safety concerns related to battery fires and the lack of specialized training or equipment for electric car incidents.

7. Depreciation and Collectability of EVs

The discussion shifts to the financial aspects of EV ownership, particularly focusing on depreciation and the potential for EVs to become collector's items.

[85:17] Spencer's Question:

"Buying a depreciated EV that has lost a bunch of value since new is a great proposition, but does that bleeding ever stop?"

Kyle and Matt debate whether EVs will witness similar depreciation trends as traditional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles or carve out a unique space in the used car market. While some early models like the Tesla Roadster may hold their value, mass-market EVs are expected to depreciate significantly over time.

8. Leasing vs. Buying EVs

Exploring consumer choices, the hosts discuss the advantages of leasing EVs over purchasing, especially given the rapid pace of technological advancements and potential depreciation.

[43:44] Matt Farah:

"No, you have to act like you don't have to switch regrets yet."

Leasing offers flexibility and reduces the financial risk associated with rapid EV depreciation and technological obsolescence.

9. Listener Questions and Technical Insights

The episode addresses several listener-submitted questions, delving deeper into the technical nuances of EV performance, charging standards, and future prospects.

[84:56] Matt Farah:

"Do EVs ever feel analogous to could one offer the same driving experience as a Raud woods era vehicle? I think fundamentally no."

The hosts agree that while EVs excel in areas like torque and straight-line speed, replicating the nuanced driving experiences of classic ICE vehicles remains a challenge.

10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up the episode, Matt and Kyle reiterate the importance of reliable charging infrastructure and the need for continued innovation to enhance the daily usability of EVs. They advocate for consumer awareness and prudent purchasing decisions, emphasizing the evolving landscape of electric mobility.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Kyle Connor ([09:10]): "No, no, I don't think they're coming back. And there's just... Trajectory is down. And that's a great thing as a consumer because those are incredible cars."

• Matt Farah ([52:12]): "All right. So we have an R1S right now, the Tri, the new one, which I was very excited to drive..."

• Kyle Connor ([99:38]): "Don't get any of these ones. We're going through this very weird period of EV and I'm not exactly sure how it's gonna turn out."

• Matt Farah ([73:02]): "But the quality here, other than the brakes, was incredible."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Design Critiques: While EVs like the electric G-Wagon offer impressive features, certain design elements may hinder functionality and user experience.

• Battery Longevity: Emerging studies suggest improved battery life, potentially addressing one of the primary concerns of EV ownership.

• Chinese EVs: Affordable yet varying in quality, Chinese electric models present both opportunities and challenges in the global market.

• Charging Infrastructure: Standardization issues and technical limitations of current Supercharger networks pose significant hurdles for widespread EV adoption.

• Depreciation Trends: Unlike some ICE vehicles, EVs are expected to depreciate rapidly, with only select models potentially retaining or increasing in value.

• Leasing Advantages: Leasing emerges as a favorable option for consumers wary of rapid technological shifts and depreciation in the EV market.

• Track Day Restrictions: Safety concerns and lack of infrastructure for EVs lead to their exclusion from many traditional track events, impacting their perception in performance circles.

---

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the current state and future prospects of electric vehicles, blending technical insights with practical considerations for consumers and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Matt Farah]

Up everybody. Welcome to the Smoking Tire podcast. This episode, like all of them, brought to you by off the Record. We love off the Record. I got three more emails this week from people who used off the Record to save their little backsides in a court of law. Off the Record is a service that were you to get a moving violation, big or small, connects you with an attorney in the jurisdiction where you got that ticket. Then they go to work on your behalf and they do everything they can to get those points off your record or not on it in the first place. Really? Man, they cover almost all of the US and they have an unbelievable track record of getting people out of little sticky situations with their cars. Download the app and use code TSTPOD for 10% off all legal services with off the Record. And if you prefer the web, go to offtherecord.com TST. You'll get that same 10% off all legal services booked through off the Record. Don't plead guilty. This in fact I swear, I've used Off the Record a whole bunch of times. I swear. It is easier, faster, more efficient and cheaper and with much better outcomes to use off the record than just to plead guilty. Everything about getting a ticket is improved with off the record. Use code TSTpod on the app or offtherecord.com TST on the web. We love you off the Record. Thank you for sponsoring our little program here. All right, on this episode, Kyle Connor is in studio. Do I know what we're gonna talk about? Not exactly, cause I'm recording this before he got here, but I'm guessing it's all the weird Chinese cars. He's been driving that huge multi car EV Cannonball. He did the state of the conversion to Tesla charge ports, full self driving and things of that nature. We love Kyle. He drives a lot of things. He has like 74 YouTube channels and counting and he's here in town visiting us. So Kyle Connor of Out of Spec everything on the Smoking Tire podcast. Zach, tell me when we exist. Because we exist. I'm gonna dive right in. How stupid is that plug holder on the back G Wagon?

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, that is the dumbest.

[Matt Farah]

Extremely the dumbest.

[Kyle Connor]

Why didn't they just put a you can option a spare tire, but can you? Yes.

[Matt Farah]

Why don't they just all have that and I can't.

[Kyle Connor]

It's one way or another. But on the electric G, you can either the like series ones that are not the press ones, get the spare tire only or the charger only. Like right now there's a production Issue where you can only get one of the two.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, oh, oh. Well, I hope the dealer. I mean, I just looking out the window when I went to get my J and T. That's James man tonic. We're drinking the Blood of Christ on the rocks.

[Kyle Connor]

Really good, by the way.

[Matt Farah]

It is good, right? I looked down at your electric G Wagon press car and I saw the square on the back, the iPod, the AirPods holder, and went and had a little shudder.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep. We all hate it. I've shown everyone how useless it is.

[Matt Farah]

And that's really the only bad thing about that car though, isn't it?

[Kyle Connor]

It's amazing.

[Matt Farah]

The rest of it, pretty goddamn good.

[Kyle Connor]

I can't go anywhere without spinning around, doing the G turns.

[Matt Farah]

Are you doing it on dry tarmac?

[Kyle Connor]

Maybe?

[Matt Farah]

We were told explicitly to not do it on dry tarmac.

[Kyle Connor]

I was given zero instructions.

[Matt Farah]

Fortunately for us, it pissed rain one day and we had a parking lot that was so wet it looked like the Hollywood. Like the water truck had come in Twin Pines Mall in Back to the Future and fucking wet that bitch down in a fucking September, California.

[Kyle Connor]

Isn't that the weirdest sensation, though, to spin around at very high speed, like you're moving?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And I did it in a parking garage and it, you know, the echoing off the walls and it just sounded like a disaster. It was amazing.

[Matt Farah]

It is particularly delightful.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it's very like, you know, typical German engineering. Solve electrical problems with mechanical solutions for transfer cases. Four low ranges for each motor. I mean, one for each.

[Matt Farah]

This is the simplest solution.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it's.

[Matt Farah]

We could not think of a simpler way to do it.

[Kyle Connor]

One of the battery guys was a viewer and messaged me on Twitter and was like, we designed this thing to run top speed down the Autobahn and fast charged for its entire life.

[Matt Farah]

So that's an interesting thing. And I kind of want to circle back to that in a minute because there was a study that came out that said we've been testing batteries wrong and so they're all going to last longer than we thought they were, which is good, actually. Usually when someone says there's a study that came out, it's like, here's how you're going to die.

[Kyle Connor]

Right. Never good results.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's almost always something bad. It's not like, hey, we were like, we undercounted this. You believe that?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So if you want to dive into degradation.

[Matt Farah]

No, wait. Let's finish the electric G wagon. Okay. I think that it's not only my favorite G wagon, but it's the only appealing electric Mercedes at all.

[Kyle Connor]

So I just was driving, I drove the six cylinder G for a while and I was like, yeah, it's fine for 99% of G owners. Who cares? It's a box on wheels and it's gonna look the part, does the thing. I just couldn't get. I couldn't go with the six cylinder. Personally. I would like G63 all day or electric G, which rocks. So it's really inefficient.

[Matt Farah]

Yes.

[Kyle Connor]

It's like 1.9 miles per kilowatt hour if I'm being gentle on it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And when it's fully charged, the gauge is very obvious optimistic. The gauge thinks you can do 260 or 270.

[Kyle Connor]

It's a 200 mile car if you're gentle. Yeah. Yeah. If you're in LA, traffic just common around the city. Like I left Pasadena this morning at 90%, went to Irvine and came here and it's at like 45. And that's not much driving.

[Matt Farah]

That's not a lot. When I took it off roading, the base of the trail is about 54 miles from my house and I left my house with 100% and I got to the base of the trail at 66.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And I was like, it is. But it's. It was like, whoa.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. The speed really affects it because, you know, its CDA value is abysmal.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But it's 116 kilowatt hours, so it's like, it's for people out there. It's like a cybertruck.

[Matt Farah]

It's a huge battery. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

It's over 100 kilowatt hours, which is amazing.

[Matt Farah]

Like from the outside it's like. Where'd you put it?

[Kyle Connor]

Exactly.

[Matt Farah]

You can't really tell.

[Kyle Connor]

It's just like a normal G wagon. It drives so nice. The G Roar actually isn't annoying.

[Matt Farah]

I completely disagree. It was very annoying and very stupid. Imagine a G63 connected to a Subaru Outback CVT. That is not a good sound.

[Kyle Connor]

No, it's.

[Matt Farah]

And it's called G Roar.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay.

[Matt Farah]

Nobody. Why like you have.

[Zach Klapman]

You do for Galando Roar.

[Matt Farah]

That's why.

[Kyle Connor]

That solves everything.

[Matt Farah]

Funny.

[Kyle Connor]

Actually.

[Matt Farah]

Galan is Galandovo. It's not good.

[Kyle Connor]

No. So I'm typically against EV sounds 99% of the time. Except for the 5N, which was cool. And that.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Which serves. Serves a function.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

That cured the boredom and was interesting on track. Although it slows you Down. So I don't know. And then this was cool with music ripping and if you just go wide open, it sounds like there's something happening. I agree. I've turned it off. I'm an EV guy, so I like the silent experience. But it's not just, it's.

[Matt Farah]

It's. It's not just that it's silent. It's that almost all of these quote soundtracks are heinously bad. Which when you consider, I mean it's like it's like cars versus phones. Like cars touch screens are heinously bad when you consider what we can do with even the shittiest phone.

[Kyle Connor]

That's true. Very true.

[Matt Farah]

And the sounds are heinously bad when you consider what even the most basic video game gets away with.

[Kyle Connor]

You're absolutely right. I just drove that Dodge Charger, which we talk about, but that is an.

[Matt Farah]

Even dumber name for its sound. What's it called?

[Kyle Connor]

Frat Sonic, something. Some bullshit. It was the worst thing I've ever driven all year. It was a terrible this.

[Matt Farah]

It's Nate. And things like that are why people are like, well AI can't be worse than this. It's like if when that's what we're doing. Yes, give it to the fucking robots.

[Kyle Connor]

So that was like. The sound in that one was like imagine those old like three speed auto, you know, sitting on torque converter like 1984, eight point whatever liter V8 and it won't rev past like 3000 RPM. So you're on a back road and I'm like, how is this engaging anyway? The G rolling.

[Matt Farah]

It's called idle Sim. It idles all the time.

[Kyle Connor]

It's cool at low speed. Like that worked actually pretty well. But like not while moving. This is cool though. So what, what I didn't realize until today was that the front motors disconnect while cruising. You can't.

[Matt Farah]

Oh right.

[Kyle Connor]

Can't really feel it. But it doesn't have a clutch disconnect. It uses the reduction gearbox to physically disconnect the front motors.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Kyle Connor]

And I'm like, wow, that's great integration actually. So anyway, I love it.

[Matt Farah]

It's executed extremely well. But then also like yeah, it's still really inefficient but at least but it is, it is very pleasant. And the only thing that I did I actually really. That kind of bothered me about it. Other than the AirPods case on the back which is so off roading was so stressful with no spare tire.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Especially on. Is Your. This one looks like it's on the same, like, whatever tires.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it's on the whatever EV tire thing.

[Matt Farah]

So very much recommend like a -10, -15.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, we'll air it down. I took it off roading and I didn't air it down only because it was just a short trail to get to a thing. And I was like, like avoiding every pointy rock.

[Matt Farah]

It made a difference. We could really. We could feel the difference. And my stress level about blowing a tire, you know Johnny blew a tire.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I know.

[Matt Farah]

While off roading and he had a.

[Kyle Connor]

Hitchhike or something to get there.

[Matt Farah]

He stranded out there.

[Kyle Connor]

That was the first thing I posted this. And he texted me and he's like, bro, don't go off road without a spare.

[Matt Farah]

Although it actually would have been kind of sick to get stranded because as we came down the mountain, we saw over on the right where Johnny had to ditch his car. There was like two Raptors on, like big tires and a Hummer ev. And I'm like, damn, Someone like Rico Suave is out here playing later in the Day. I saw it's fucking. It was Danny Ricardo and like some other. Jesus Christ. Another comedian and a musician. Like, they were all fucking riding around just riding dirt bikes out there. I get stranded with them. Guys would be all right, that's cool, Danny. I'll take a ride home from Danny Ricardo.

[Kyle Connor]

Yes. So G's cool. It's very, very. Does all the G stuff you want it to do? Yeah, Taking it out to the desert tomorrow, which will be fun.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. So you said you're going to Joshua Tree?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that's.

[Matt Farah]

You know, it's far.

[Kyle Connor]

It's like three hours.

[Matt Farah]

Really far.

[Kyle Connor]

It's. That's not far.

[Matt Farah]

I guess for you. That's not far. For a regular person, that's really far.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay. Yeah, I don't mind it. It's on this side of the planet.

[Matt Farah]

But you said you were going specifically to test Rivian's charging stations.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Rivian built what they're calling an outpost, is their first ever one. And it's like this experience thing while charging in the middle of whatever.

[Matt Farah]

And there's a. It's like a cowboy saloon theme.

[Kyle Connor]

And they're going to build a bunch of these.

[Matt Farah]

Everything they do is. Look, it is like that. Yeah, Everything Rivian does is fucking th. Themed.

[Kyle Connor]

I know. I love it. I really love it.

[Matt Farah]

Good cars, but God damn, are they hokey?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, they're hokey. You know what this is? This is YouTube gold for me.

[Matt Farah]

That looks like in the inside, it looks like a goop store.

[Kyle Connor]

All I see is great YouTube video in the middle of nowhere and I can't wait to go and film it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And it's the first Rivian station that was open to all cars.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So that's kind of cool. They have a new dispenser.

[Matt Farah]

They. 350s.

[Kyle Connor]

They are 300 kilowatt max output.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, 300 yet.

[Kyle Connor]

Maybe 350. That's what I'll find out tomorrow. It's a slightly adapted thing.

[Matt Farah]

Enjoy. A complimentary cup from Josh. Free coffee is good. Purchase some trail mix.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh, purchase snacks they're not giving away.

[Matt Farah]

There's a 24 hour restroom. You'll find the code in the Rivian app. So you may be able to charge your non Rivian, but if you want to take a shit, you better be writing it. Check to rivian financial, baby.

[Kyle Connor]

R1s owners only.

[Zach Klapman]

That's what the S stands for.

[Matt Farah]

There's going to be an asterisk next year that like our three owners not count. They don't count.

[Kyle Connor]

That's. It's. You know what, perks come with the higher spec models.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, look. I'm joking. It does look nice, but it's also very thematic.

[Kyle Connor]

It's perfect for YouTube, baby.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

I love it. I can't wait to film it. It's going to be a huge video. Watch three people watch it. I don't know.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, it looks like a nice place to wear athleisure and have something with avocado in it.

[Kyle Connor]

I filmed another one, another charging station yesterday in Santa Ana that had a Gelson's.

[Matt Farah]

Is that what famous for its wins. That had a Gelson's grocery store.

[Kyle Connor]

Like a nice one? It's like an Erewhon, I guess, or.

[Matt Farah]

No, Gelson's is like halfway between a Ralph's and a Whole Foods.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh. Everyone was telling me, like, Gelson's really fucking nice.

[Matt Farah]

It is nice.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay. It looked really good.

[Matt Farah]

Gelson's is like probably Whole Foods. Whole Foods level produce, but without Whole Foods pretentiousness and no Jeff Bezos.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh, okay. So.

[Matt Farah]

So like all good things.

[Kyle Connor]

Good for the thing.

[Matt Farah]

It's harder to steal from, though.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So this, they had 40 chargers.

[Matt Farah]

Wow.

[Kyle Connor]

And it was. It was awesome. It was like a big park and you could do your shopping. Car wash, vacuums, air pressure. In Santa ana, they're building 10 in the LA area.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Which will be like, amazing.

[Matt Farah]

That's pretty cool.

[Kyle Connor]

Charging sucks here, guys.

[Matt Farah]

Gotta take a quick break because today's Episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Oh boy, do I love NordVPN and I'm so happy to have them back online. Privacy and security has never been more important. And the details of what you do on the Internet and where you're doing it from need to be yours alone. I wish there was a VPN for connected cars, actually, but at least we have one for our phones, our mobile digital devices and computers. You've gotta be on a VPN when using the Internet, and NORD is the best one. It's more than just the VPN itself. It's a complete system to keep your data on the Internet protected. NORD comes with features like Threat Protection Pro, which offers advanced protection from malware, phishing scams and other online threats. Are you downloading a file? Threat Protection Pro checks if it's malware clicking a link. Threat Protection Pro blocks websites that are fake, malicious or used for phishing, fraud or scams. Annoyed by pop ups constantly flooding your screen, Threat Protection Pro blocks ads for a smooth browsing experience. Online shopping. You shop online. So do we all. Don't pretend you don't falling for a fake shopping scam designed to mimic legitimate outlets. There's plenty of websites luring in the unwary with promises of discounts or rare items. But guess what? Regular VPNs don't protect you against fake web stores, but Threat Protection Pro does. In fact, NordVPN was ranked third in AV Comparatives fake shop detection test in 2024, beating many other premium cybersecurity tools. So go to HTTPs or hit the link in the description. But also that's NordVPN.com TST and then use code TST to get a two year plan plus four additional months with a huge discount. It's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guar. That's code [e-mail] TST 30 day money back guarantee and thank you to NORDVPN for sponsoring today's episode. Let's get back to it.

[Kyle Connor]

It really sucks to drive an electric car here unless you have owned charging.

[Matt Farah]

It sucks to drive an electric car here. Relying on the public network. Driving an electric car here if you can charge at home or work is a vastly superior experience.

[Kyle Connor]

Totally.

[Matt Farah]

I'm a huge fan as I mean like I really really love driving electric cars around Los Angeles compared to almost any gas car but except in dynamic situations, I prefer gas cars to almost any electric car.

[Kyle Connor]

Don't disagree with you there at all. Yep.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, but we have. We have an R1S right now, the Tri, the new one, which I was very excited to drive. And I thought. I go, God, this is gonna turn into an expensive week. Cause my wife and I need a new electric car.

[Kyle Connor]

And I'm like, he's gone then.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, back in April.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay.

[Matt Farah]

But right now, top of the pack for replacement.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

But I go, I'm gonna. I have a feeling we're gonna drive this and we're gonna want a Rivian. What do you think they do? They do some things really, really well. But I do not want one. No. I've taken the last couple fucking months or two such a dive from touch screens. And this is an all touchscreen experience. I just can't get behind it.

[Kyle Connor]

I mean, look, that's why they make different cars.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But I love it. So I have 60,000 miles almost on my Rivian. I have an early one to launch R1T. And that thing is been the best single item I've ever spent money on. It's so good. It's just reliable.

[Matt Farah]

That's good.

[Kyle Connor]

It's fast. It's. You know, it looks right. I mean, in Colorado, it's perfect. You don't look like an ass rolling up in the cybertruck, which, you know, I tinted the windows on ours so no one sees us in there.

[Matt Farah]

That's funny.

[Kyle Connor]

And I mean, I love the cybertruck too. I mean, you reviewed mine a while ago.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. And so I didn't want to, but I did.

[Zach Klapman]

Do you have differentials yet now?

[Kyle Connor]

Yep. Locking. Locking.

[Matt Farah]

What about. What about your light bar?

[Kyle Connor]

Well, I got that.

[Matt Farah]

You did? Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Is there anything left on the list that you still haven't gotten?

[Kyle Connor]

I don't think anymore. I think I got everything I paid for. It only took nine months. It was like trickling in. And every time it goes for service, like Tesla, like, adds stuff that I'm like, oh, wow, new motor. They, like replaced my entire Cyber. Trucks are lunching motors. The early ones, like left and right.

[Zach Klapman]

Really?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Really a problem. I don't know. But they replaced mine preemptively for engineering. Turo. They did like an engineering study, and I got one of the first new motors. And then maybe I'll have to, because.

[Matt Farah]

On the sly, like, yeah. 90% of them are rentals.

[Kyle Connor]

Especially around here.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around here they're just. I mean, it's just the level. I actually think the purchasing of them has gone off a cliff. Because we got to a point where we started to see, you know, five to 10 a day. And then it really sort of just froze there.

[Kyle Connor]

And then you still only see five.

[Matt Farah]

And then. Yeah. And there's no further. I mean, there was just a. There was a. You know, there was just another story that I saw that was like, pretty much. I mean, they said they were take. They were polishing.

[Kyle Connor]

I was gonna bring that up.

[Matt Farah]

Foundation series, badges off some trucks. I can't back that up. I don't know if that's true or not.

[Kyle Connor]

It came from a fairly reputable source.

[Matt Farah]

But, I mean, but, you know, back when they.

[Kyle Connor]

Why would you buy one of those now? Because they're 20 grand more. You don't get anything.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So you would just buy a normal one, not the. You know, they made us pay more so we could make content with it. Basically. That's all it was.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yours comes with a commercial filming permit. It's the only thing that was actually delivered with the truck. Funnily enough.

[Kyle Connor]

Tesla's really good at screwing over their early customers, and those are the people that love them the most.

[Matt Farah]

It's really funny. What do you call something that just takes advantage of their most fervent support? Starts with an A, over and over.

[Zach Klapman]

Ends with abusive relationships.

[Matt Farah]

So weird. That's on the tip of my tongue. But no, wait. We had started down something with the G Wagon, and we wanted to come back to. To come back to it. We veered away from it.

[Kyle Connor]

Damn.

[Matt Farah]

Shit. Well, we'll circle back.

[Kyle Connor]

Shuckle Mountain. I don't know.

[Matt Farah]

You've been driving a bunch of Chinese shit I want to talk about. Not shit, like, just crazy Chinese stuff.

[Kyle Connor]

I mean, some of it's shit. Some of it's incredible.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Some of it is next level.

[Matt Farah]

And do we want it? Do we trust it? Should we have it? Should we not have it?

[Kyle Connor]

I think we should have it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But I don't know if we should trust it.

[Matt Farah]

Right. Like, I saw some of them come.

[Kyle Connor]

With camera covers from the factory, and I'm like, that sends an interesting message. Yeah, they have, like, the selfie. Can't, like, BMWs have them now.

[Matt Farah]

They live, like the driver monitoring cameras.

[Kyle Connor]

No, the. That separate. But they have, like, an interior monitor where you can, like, log into your app and see.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, like a security camera.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Or like, if I put my dog in our Model 3 or whatever, it will show up. I can, like, log in and see what they're doing in the car, which is a great feature. But they have camera slider covers now in some of these cars. And I'm like, wow, that's Interesting. From the factory.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

There must be enough of a user base to not trust whatever's going on.

[Matt Farah]

Right.

[Kyle Connor]

To want the COVID See?

[Matt Farah]

You know what's so funny? It's like, people. So apparently that the distrust of what's happening with data is validated enough that they're putting that in the car.

[Kyle Connor]

Exactly.

[Matt Farah]

What's really funny is, like, in America, we are now just letting, like, Google and Amazon in our car, and there is absolutely zero reason to think that they're doing anything remotely less malicious with our shit than the Chinese government.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep, totally.

[Matt Farah]

You know what I mean? Like, they're basically treating our data exactly as China and whoever the fuck quote China. It's like, it's so imagine being in China, like, and America's taking who America? No, Amazon.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, Google.

[Matt Farah]

They're taking your fucking data. Not China or not America. Companies, dude.

[Kyle Connor]

It's actually really insane. So, yeah, these Chinese cars we drove, everything from an $8,000 brand new Wuling Bingo.

[Matt Farah]

A Wuling Bingo.

[Kyle Connor]

A Wuling Bingo. Which is like, I think s. I.

[Matt Farah]

Won there in 86. $57 in a case of heinies.

[Kyle Connor]

This thing's pink. It's got four wheels. It actually moves under its own power. Alyssa was driving it around today, and it was hilarious.

[Matt Farah]

Well, $8,000, your competition typically has two wheels. So if you have four wheels, can you get a photo of a Woo woo ling Bingo.

[Kyle Connor]

Bingo. It has some GM funding behind it because it's saic.

[Matt Farah]

I think when you Google that, the first thing that comes up is a ball of Wu.

[Kyle Connor]

That first option there.

[Matt Farah]

Yes. You transliterated that entirely wrong. Okay. Binguo. The Binguo.

[Kyle Connor]

We had the fully spec'd one. It was 12 grand.

[Matt Farah]

Is that what. Is that what we're looking at here, give or take?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it looked just like that.

[Matt Farah]

There is zero difference between this and a $28,000 Fiat 500.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. It is literally a 500 described over the telephone. And you are now have a Wuling Bingo.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. It looks like somewhere between a little Nissan Leaf and a Fiat 500, but with Genesis headlights and bumpers.

[Kyle Connor]

It's like the size of a Mirage, but, like, huge trunk. Actually. It feels extremely unsafe to be in it. It feels like the wind blows. The doors are gonna come in. Yeah. It's really meant for urban. Sure. It's max speed of 60 miles per hour.

[Matt Farah]

Eight grand. It's competing with. It's a neighborhood electric vehicle. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Like lithium. Golf carts are more than that here.

[Matt Farah]

Yes.

[Kyle Connor]

This is a car with airbags and software, dude.

[Matt Farah]

You know I just found out what a moke costs.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh, I know. Do you know what extremely expensive.

[Matt Farah]

Do you know what one of those things costs?

[Kyle Connor]

I just reviewed one. It was. I can't remember. It was like 30 something. What was it?

[Matt Farah]

It's.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Farah]

It's like it starts with a two or a three.

[Kyle Connor]

Right, right.

[Matt Farah]

Like top one were low three, shockingly expensive.

[Kyle Connor]

And it drives terribly well.

[Matt Farah]

It looks like it's made of I beams. It's insane.

[Kyle Connor]

It's really bad. I drove also a pink one of those for a video.

[Matt Farah]

Yikes. Of course. I mean, dude, that looks like it was built for Top Gear. Like that is literally looks like it was built by Jeremy Clarkson after he said cue the music.

[Kyle Connor]

No, that's so bad. So the Wuling drives way better than that. I can make the comparison now that I've extensively tested both.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. For a quarter of the price.

[Kyle Connor]

And this makes more power and has more range. This is like a 33 kilowatt hour LFP pack. 10 to 80 in 29, 30 minutes. Like it's not bad.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, it has DC fast charging for eight grand. I would not trust that.

[Kyle Connor]

And 11 kilowatt AC charging, which like some electric, big electric car have like 9 kilowatt charging. So it's like actually fairly impressive. So we started there and we walked. We worked all the way up to seriously, a world class car. Not even joking. It's the Xiaomi SU7.

[Matt Farah]

Now is that the one that had total brake failure on the track?

[Kyle Connor]

Yes.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Okay, cool. Just checking.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep.

[Zach Klapman]

But it also ran. Set the nevergreen lap time record.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that's the Ultra version, the Max, which is not the Max. The Max is the mid trim.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

The Ultra is the big one. The one we drove was like model 3 performance competitor. Sure. For roughly the same money, a little bit less incredible interior materials. Actually drove really nice. Brakes are a problem. Definitely.

[Matt Farah]

I saw a post and I don't know if it could be verified that the brakes were actually sort of allegedly like fraudulent. Like they were.

[Kyle Connor]

They look huge.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Like it has a huge like a 10 piston cover on like a single piston caliper.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. I think they are technically four piston, but it's like this much surface material and this much break.

[Matt Farah]

That's kind of crazy.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

It does look like a Taycan. It's like, hey, chatgpt, make me a Taycan with a McLaren Artura nose on it and a Hyundai Ioniq or a Hyundai Elantra N S. Right. Give or take.

[Kyle Connor]

It's even got some Taycan stuff. With the running light. It's the interior. Like, the perforation pattern is identical to Porsche. The steering wheel material, like, the look is slightly off, but when you grab the wheel, it's a Porsche wheel. It's. It's unbelievable.

[Matt Farah]

So they're still. They're still ripping off, but if you're ripping someone off. No, I get it. But they're just finding much more subtle ways to do it as opposed to literally making, like, a fake X5 or a fake Mini or a fake Lexus.

[Kyle Connor]

Right. So in general, I would say that was the break.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So that brake is an issue. They have to fix that. There were also some other quality issues with the car for the initial one. Let's just be, you know, totally real here for a second. This is a car that is in an extremely competitive environment for sales. It got 100,000 pre orders. They're $850 pre order. Wasn't like a hundred bucks each, and they did that in 24 hours. So there was a lot of interest for this car.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, but, like, interest and quality are not the same thing. The cybertruck proves that.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, you're totally right. Right. But the quality here, other than the brakes, was incredible.

[Zach Klapman]

Why do you think there was so much interest in this car? What do you think it was about this that captivated people over other ones?

[Kyle Connor]

So Xiaomi is like this huge conglomerate of tech. They make, like, everything from washing machines to amazing cell phones. So imagine if, like, Apple. At least the Apple car. It's kind of like Lentil Global.

[Matt Farah]

We're in everything. No, no. Other guy's reference. Okay, never mind. Sorry.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, so.

[Matt Farah]

So some three people out there are like, he did another guy's reference.

[Kyle Connor]

Never even heard of it.

[Matt Farah]

The other guy.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, never heard of it.

[Matt Farah]

Mark Wahlberg, Will Ferrell.

[Kyle Connor]

I don't.

[Matt Farah]

It's a awesome movie. Oh, yeah, you don't. You've never seen movies, right?

[Kyle Connor]

I'm so.

[Matt Farah]

Every reference is that I do like the steering wheel. I mean, the general design of that. Of that interior is nice. Yeah, for sure.

[Kyle Connor]

It's really a nice car. And the. The crazy. So most Chinese cars have. Have in the past, like, a lot of tech features, a lot of fast processor and then shit chassis dynamics and okay brakes for sure. And then weird powertrain and tuning and stuff. This, while it wasn't completely as well sorted as some cars that we get to drive, was, like, really close.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

I'm like, wow. Finally. I drove like a. Like, I've driven every BYD, every Neo, and they're like, you know, 80% of the way there from a driving standpoint, to convince you they're, like, good enough, but clearly you can tell they were developed in simulation and not really tested and adapted afterwards. This feels like there were actually some test drivers who gave a shit and dialed it in.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, that one guy gave a shit right into the fucking wall, didn't he?

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, it snapped the seat in half backwards. It was a huge hit.

[Matt Farah]

But I respect your restraint in looking at that photo of that break and saying that needs to be addressed. As if that's not malicious. Like, that's literally like putting a giant brake caliper cover that says Brembo on it over what looks like a motorcycle pad. That's malicious.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Like, that's fraud.

[Kyle Connor]

I'm not, not against you at all. I'm with you and I. That's actually we. It's in our video, too. That was like, this is bullshit.

[Matt Farah]

That's crazy. And this is how much power.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, so, So, I mean, I, I, I haven't been reviewing cars as long as you have been, but my strategy, or at least theory, is I try to review the sub components, the subcategories individually, and I try not to let one thing affect the other thing. But, yeah, that's a real problem. And even driving it on the street, you feel the brake issue.

[Matt Farah]

Okay, so you're, you're saying, okay, I try to say, all right, the, the power, is this, the handling, is this.

[Kyle Connor]

The, the, the in general, I try to say, which is fine.

[Matt Farah]

You can have your style. I don't care. Yeah, I mean, but I'm just saying, like, look, if that photo is real, that's pretty goddamn egregious.

[Kyle Connor]

It's crazy, especially because the CEO of this company, I don't know his name or anything, but I know he's a huge car enthusiast. And to me, I'm like, if you're a car enthusiast, how can you let that make it to production? That just seems crazy. That's the car. Other than that single issue is incredible. It drove really well. It had incredible software, great driver assistance, looks great, feels great. Everything about that was like, oh, damn. And to think that two years ago, this company made cell phones.

[Matt Farah]

Well, they skipped over making good internal combustions. They didn't have to spend all that time. We built up our industry around internal combustion, as did Europe and most of Asia. So, you know, they just got to skip over that.

[Kyle Connor]

Speaking of brakes, there's a cool feature that a lot of these Chinese cars has that I've never seen. In a western car, which is, you know, when you're driving a typical car, you're on the brake pedal coming to a stop and you always just lift off at the end to make a smooth stop. All of these Chinese cars have a.

[Matt Farah]

Smooth stop, by the way. I hate when people don't do that.

[Kyle Connor]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

Because you drives me fucking nuts.

[Kyle Connor]

It's every Uber driver.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. So it has an auto for that.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. And unless you're in emergency braking, then it doesn't do that. But if you're just cruising normally, every single one, just smooth stops.

[Matt Farah]

It's kind of nice. Guys, we gotta take one more quick break for oura Frames. These things are so cool. Everybody in your family is not a technophile, like genius. You who listens to the Smoking Tire podcast? Like, let's just say your parents, right. Your uncle, they're older, they don't necessarily know how Dropbox works per se, or things like that. Complicated file sharing systems. Here's what you do. You get the aura frame, you send it to a person you love, and then you can upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to that aura frame. Right. So you got kids, you want to send those photos to. The grandparents, the uncles, etc. Aura Frames is it. You just send them the frame, they set it up in their living room and then photos of the kids just start coming in because you're dropping them in there. These are great holiday gifts. They make it easy to bring people closer together and keep up with the old ones, keep up with the young ones, keep up with the pets. We should do like a Patreon. We should do an Aura Frames Patreon.

[Kyle Connor]

We could do that.

[Zach Klapman]

Make people a photos account and let us know.

[Matt Farah]

You should talk to Aura Frames and see if people buy. If patrons at a level get their own TST Aura frame. It's like a fully private Instagram, but like in your house and not on Instagram.

[Kyle Connor]

And.

[Zach Klapman]

Oh, we upload the photos.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Like we put photos like BTS photos in this. Yeah, that's actually a pretty good idea. We should talk to Aura Frames about this. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com and get 35 bucks off Aura's best selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code tire at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code tire. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. And now back to the show.

[Kyle Connor]

It's actually really cool.

[Matt Farah]

Is it?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And, and. But this is a on the we're on the brake caliper at this point. We're not talking about like regen shit.

[Kyle Connor]

Correct. So the way most of them do their braking is they target, you know, that sort of the brake controller handles between regen and friction, whatever it can grab from either. And then it targets the deceleration profile and then just chooses a really nice one. At least in this. Some. Some of them were tuned bad. I think I saw a commercial that it was one of the suppliers that did. It was like a Bosch or something that did the brake booster. And I thought it was really nicely tuned and thought, okay, we should get that in some of our cars because some people drive like shit and don't come to a smooth stop.

[Matt Farah]

It would be an interesting thing to be able to. I imagine you can toggle it on and off if you want, right? Yeah. As long as you can turn it off off. Like that would be. That would be a nice thing to have.

[Kyle Connor]

The settings are crazy. In all these cars, they let you adjust everything.

[Matt Farah]

What was the weirdest adjustment you saw?

[Kyle Connor]

I drove this, this IM L6, which is a brand new Tesla Model 3 competitor.

[Matt Farah]

It's pronounced IMEL6.

[Kyle Connor]

The LS6 is the SUV version, but it's basically the same thing. It has actually one of the first semi.

[Matt Farah]

This is from the same company as that other super cheap car. It looks like it is.

[Kyle Connor]

I think they're both under saic, but different company. IM is its own brand.

[Matt Farah]

It looks exactly like. It looks like the same face. Doesn't look the same family.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, they're all weirdly odd because we're not used to seeing them. So it's like hard to distinguish things. I guess that's been my issue. This one is a just a normal, like $40,000 electric sedan, but it has crab walk.

[Matt Farah]

And what purpose is that supposed to serve?

[Kyle Connor]

Zero. It's just fun.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

If you've got Rooster, let it go sideways. When I drive Hummer ev, I crab walk everywhere because it's hilarious.

[Matt Farah]

That is the only purpose of that vehicle.

[Kyle Connor]

Just. Yeah. Just to be stupid and have fun. But you know, that was cool that like a random sedan had stuff like this. It also has like a full track mode. I'm like, no one's taking this thing to the track, dude. They let you like pre chill the drivetrain, adjust the power split.

[Matt Farah]

Track mode is a little silly. I don't, I don't like what they're doing with these wheels though. These paint, these, these painted inner, inner wheel sidewalls. What can we call Those, the insides of the cutouts of the wheels are painted.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, two tone.

[Matt Farah]

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not into that.

[Kyle Connor]

The crazy thing with these are the charging performance. So they're we're like 4 or 500 kilowatts normal in China. Just completely normal.

[Matt Farah]

Is that, well, how do we get there?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, we're not far away from it. So they're choosing power dense cells. They're also getting sort of semi solid state and right on the cusp of a mass produced solid state battery. Which means the, you know, sort of the electrolyte allows the free flow of electrons through, does that.

[Matt Farah]

So I read over and I admittedly electricity is a weak point for me and I've put a lot of time into learning what shit means and trying to say the thing right. For years we've been hearing okay, when solid state batteries are here. When solid state batteries here. When solid state batteries are here, what specifically are solid state batteries going to make better about the car?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that is a tough one. There's a few benefits and a few downsides. The downsides right now are the longevity of the system because when you have a solid state connecting with the anode and the cathode and there are some like anode free batteries that are starting to come. I'm not a cell expert at all, but if you can make them manufacturable in high quantities and last a long time, you have a complete fire safety sort of solved. Because the electrolyte is really, that gel material is very flammable and my understanding is they'll be extremely safe from a, a fire standpoint because the gel doesn't.

[Matt Farah]

Spread and go all over the place.

[Kyle Connor]

Right. You won't have a thermal event then. And also, yeah, basically the free flowing of electrons between the cell and hopefully less degradation would be the goal right now. That's the problem is they work really well for a few hundred cycles. And then basically the new electrolyte material, the solid state material starts to lose connection with the anode and cathode and you'll have a shorted cell or you'll have an issue where, where you'll get something called lithium dendrites that form that can split through the cell. And so you have a bunch of little issues and I'm not an expert at all and I would really love to dig into this topic but there's very few people who understand it.

[Matt Farah]

I would love to as well, except we'd lose all of our advertisers. Yeah, sure, that's like the new. That's like, oh, you wanted to talk about tires. Hold my beer. Yeah, yeah, gone. But it's, I mean, we sort of are gonna be forced to, to learn all this stuff, aren't we?

[Kyle Connor]

I'm fascinated by it. I also just, I think the charging performance, like Taycan charges really well because they went with a very expensive power dense cell rather than a sort of capacity dense cell.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

And so these are cells that are available trade offs automakers can go for. Do you want less overall capacity but with higher charging and discharging power or more capacity with less charging performance, as an example. And so these are the trade offs every automaker has to go through with just typical NMC regular, you know, I guess. Wet batteries.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Non, non, dry.

[Matt Farah]

You just made me think. And we'll come back to China in a second. Do I want a 2 year old Taycan at half price, dude? Because I.

[Kyle Connor]

So cheap.

[Matt Farah]

Because I, I, it's like, you know, we've done this thing with the Bentley of. Can you, could I drive this Bentley for less money for a year than if I had just leased something? But what everyone really wants to know is, is a Taycan at half price a good deal?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I think it is. You think so the new one's significantly better.

[Matt Farah]

I know.

[Kyle Connor]

From, from a, in less. Like if you're just using it as a commuter around town and you're not doing big trips. The old ones, I'm amazing.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Really, really great.

[Matt Farah]

So what makes the new one that much better?

[Kyle Connor]

So the new one we just did like cumulatively across all of our testing, 20,000 miles in the new car. We did a bunch, drove it all around Europe and the US for all of our testing. And it was amazing. It's really cool. It does 320 kilowatt peak, maybe like 325. And it holds 300 kilowatt to 65%.

[Matt Farah]

Okay. So that's pretty good.

[Kyle Connor]

That's the magic.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

We broke the cannonball with it again. Just to kind of show the, the, the difference between the old and the new car. And it was hours difference across the country. It's like an amazing road tripper. Better thermals, better suspension with active ride.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, active ride. Sick.

[Kyle Connor]

It's so cool.

[Matt Farah]

But do you want a Sport Turismo from 2022? You know, at half price without active ride? I think at 65 grand, I think you do.

[Kyle Connor]

And I, and I think they're going to be even less than that in no time. Yeah, I don't, I don't think they're coming back.

[Matt Farah]

No.

[Kyle Connor]

And there's just. Trajectory is down. And that's a great thing as a consumer because those are incredible cars.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. It just, it's, it's, it's a tough thing to process, you know, owning one because it just seems like, it seems like if, if something happens that's bad, it just seems like it could be so expensive.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. I mean stuck with it are like their failure modes on their cars are rough. Like there's a, there's this guy in like Ukraine who gets all these Taycans in that were crashed and rebuilds them or something happens to the battery and he's really, really good with it. But there are significant problems with these early Taycans from a battery standpoint that the new one seems to, at least I'm told, fix quite a bit of.

[Matt Farah]

Do you think by the time they got to cross Turismo, which was already like a year and a half into production, that they sorted that to the point where that car like I'm talking about a car with like, you know, 10 to 15,000 miles. I'm not talking about 50 or 100,000 miles.

[Kyle Connor]

The miles.

[Matt Farah]

Can that be trusted? No.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, the miles.

[Matt Farah]

I wouldn't just which day it was built on.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Like. Yeah, just. I don't even know. But there's like random battery failures and maybe it's whenever you're in like owners groups of cars or you research them. Like people don't talk when their car is great. They only post when there's issues with it.

[Matt Farah]

Right.

[Kyle Connor]

But I think you just, you know, the warranty's long. Eight years on the battery. Get a CPO one too, whatever. And they're amazing. Just don't buy a first year one. I would get 20, 21 or newer if the car supports plug in charge.

[Matt Farah]

You will do that? Yeah, yeah. You got to have the plug in charge.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. The first year doesn't have it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. That's.

[Kyle Connor]

No, but it's retrofittable.

[Matt Farah]

I would, I would only buy a Cross Turismo anyway.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah. Then, then you're fine. Yeah, I mean I was trying to get my dad to get one of those.

[Matt Farah]

They. They're rat. Yeah, they're so, so nice. And you don't. Just the base one. Like you don't need the. All the power, like the regular power.

[Kyle Connor]

They went for the Macan electric so that's what my mom was driving now.

[Matt Farah]

And she like it.

[Kyle Connor]

She loves it. Yeah. She went from a model Y to that. So it's a big Step up from ride quality and, you know, the whole car. She. She's really thrilled with it. Yeah, it's not as nice as the Taycan, though.

[Matt Farah]

I. Yeah, I had. I had one on order. I ended up not taking it. It was. It was too expensive of a car. Too much money, you know? Well, whenever. If everything was what it cost in 2021, then it would be fine, but that's not how everything else works now. You know, pick your $50,000 electric crossover for no money.

[Kyle Connor]

The move is either lease one right now, Especially where we live in Colorado. The lease deals are crazy, dude. You can get a free Fiat 500E. It's zero down, zero a month.

[Matt Farah]

What?

[Kyle Connor]

You just pay taxes up front.

[Matt Farah]

Seriously?

[Kyle Connor]

Yes. Yeah, 500 E's are free in Colorado right now.

[Matt Farah]

Can. I. Won't. I will. I'll take one.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, you got to register it there, because that's where you get all the state credits.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, you have to register it in Colorado.

[Kyle Connor]

That's where you get the state credit. You. Yeah, I'm sure you could find the deal online, but there's literally zero dollars.

[Matt Farah]

Can I register to your house?

[Kyle Connor]

No. I mean, I think I would be cool with it, but you need, like, a utility bill in your name or something.

[Matt Farah]

All right, sure. Can I.

[Kyle Connor]

So this. This was a. This is $62 a month. Maybe that includes taxes.

[Matt Farah]

The taxes, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. But we did this thing with Leafs.

[Matt Farah]

Have you driven one of those yet? 500e?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Is it all right?

[Kyle Connor]

But for free. Way better than a leaf.

[Matt Farah]

Under $100 a month.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So we did a Leaf deal. I think we sold, like, a hundred in a day at our local dealer. It was 500 down, 19amonth.

[Matt Farah]

Wow.

[Kyle Connor]

And that was. You know, I got one for my dog sitter. I'm like, dude, seriously? Yeah. Thanks for watching the dogs. Here's a Leaf. Then it bricked on him. He hated EVs. He's like an old Buick, you know, has an old Lesaber. Danny. Oh, gosh.

[Zach Klapman]

We did a whole video, like, you announced the deal, like, to help promote the Nissan dealership or something.

[Kyle Connor]

Well, I was just like. We went and got this. You should go get one, too. And the dealer's like, oh, maybe like, a few people will show up. Dude. There were people, like, knocking the door down the next morning. It was crazy. We met so many viewers. It was fun if you were there. Nice to see you.

[Matt Farah]

How many people bought leaves?

[Kyle Connor]

Over 100 in a day. I mean, they were, like, getting them from other dealers. They were pre selling Ones that were at the port that they were trying to get it.

[Matt Farah]

That's awesome.

[Kyle Connor]

Crazy. But Danny, we got him one and he hated electric cars. And I'm not sure he's convinced. The Leaf's not a great one to convince you.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But the whole car bricked at 400 miles. Leafs are generally pretty reliable.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yeah. My buddy, poor guy, he lemoned his Rivian R1s. It had an issue. It had terminal pull to the right. It pulled to the right super hard. They couldn't fix it.

[Kyle Connor]

What was it? A quad motor?

[Matt Farah]

Don't. Yeah, but a gen one? No. Yeah, it was like. Yeah, it was like what they were selling like eight months ago.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, an S quad.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Lemoned it, but got the new one. Got a try. He just got it. He put 400 miles on it and it went into fucking limp mode. And while he was in Mexico, by the way, and he thought he was. He's like, he hits us up. What's Turtle mode? I can't go over 50. And I was like, oh, shit, dude. He figured out how to trick it into going over 50. He brought it, he got it back to where? The service center. He's down in San Diego. And they said they have to replace the entire suspension, that the truck had 400 miles on it.

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, that was not great. That is not.

[Matt Farah]

And I was like, oh, I have one for review this week. He's like, yeah, tell him to fucking take this one. I don't want this thing back. I was like, fuck, that's crazy. Oh, no.

[Kyle Connor]

I've had a couple issues with the new Rivian's. The Gen 2 is pretty rough, in my opinion. From an improvement over the gen one. R1S gets a suspension improvement, but charging performance didn't get any better, which was my main issue with it before. Yeah, I wish it did better. Basically, Gen 2, we gave it a pretty scathing review.

[Matt Farah]

I remember really liking the truck, except that it wouldn't fit in my garage because it was too long and going if. The SUV must be unbelievable. And I don't really feel that way. The truck is actually better other than being too long.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. It's like originally they like tuned the suspension and the whole thing around that.

[Matt Farah]

Longer.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, like a foot longer.

[Matt Farah]

It's a lot longer.

[Kyle Connor]

Big difference. And they adapted the new one, blah, blah, blah. Put a heat pump in it, all these things. But it just. To me, it was a cost cutting thing. The Gen 2 for Rivian, to save money for their bill of materials.

[Matt Farah]

Sure.

[Kyle Connor]

And the customer, like the door handles feel worse. The heat pump makes noise when it's cold. It's buzzing away, shaking the whole car. Charging performance, literally.

[Matt Farah]

I drove it in this morning in like the cold and it didn't heat up that fast.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh yeah. The heating performance is worse than the old ones.

[Matt Farah]

It's not great.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of improvements to go. I'm gonna go over and visit their like engineering labs after we did the review. They're like, come over and you know, meet with everyone. I'm like, yeah, really want to, but.

[Matt Farah]

It feels like it's screwed together really nicely. Excuse me.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, Rivians are. Have you driven the. The new quad motor?

[Matt Farah]

No.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay. Yeah, I haven't. Yeah, I did dual tri and quad on track same day. We did well.

[Matt Farah]

Jesus.

[Kyle Connor]

So we were doing Motor Trend SUV of the Year. I was like joining for that program as a guest thing and there. So I was like, great, I'll do dual tri and quad. It was really interesting to see the difference. The dual motor is the best one. Get the base R1s.

[Matt Farah]

Why is that?

[Kyle Connor]

LFP battery. Best charging performance out of the bunch. Best thermal. The dual motor just felt so happy and natural to slide. The problem with the tri in quad, in my opinion. Well, the quad we drove was super early. Pulled hard to the right. Like massive amount of torque steer in the quad.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, I wonder if this is what was happening with my buddies.

[Kyle Connor]

But the Gen1s never did it, so it must have been different. But the new one was like early pre pro prototype B. I can't imagine it would make it to series like that. They also don't upgrade the brakes for the faster one ones.

[Matt Farah]

Oh.

[Kyle Connor]

Which is like.

[Matt Farah]

Well, it's good that the dual motor is the best because it's also the cheapest.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So buy the base R1s, LFP like base battery, pack everything. That's the one to go for. And then you can full charge it every day and it's great, huh?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, that's good to know. Okay, so we've. I want to talk about cars. Not Tesla's. Using the Tesla charge plug now.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And how that is going and what cars are good and bad at that specific task. What is your experience charging non Teslas on superchargers?

[Kyle Connor]

Should we start with the bad first?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, sure.

[Kyle Connor]

Shit on stuff. There's a lot of cut clip now. There are a lot of problems with this NACS transition. Technically it's now called J3400.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, they gave it a J. Huh?

[Kyle Connor]

It's got a J name. So official SAE J3400. And yeah, it's really honestly a disaster. However, I think we all needed to converge on one plug, of course. And so I was at the time before any of this happened, I was really pushing for everyone. Let's just go ccs. That was the most.

[Matt Farah]

They were doing it in Europe and like.

[Kyle Connor]

Well, the CCS Europe's totally different. They use 3 phase CCS 2 without a latch. That's the best one. If we could have all just gone CCS2, that would have been a great solution. None of this would have ever happened.

[Matt Farah]

Cool. Another way point for Western.

[Kyle Connor]

So J3400. So what's happening with this? Essentially we're all pretty much moving to the port. The port's better, it's a nicer port. It's easier to interface. It has a really nice design. The CCS ones, generally it's hard to totally interface it into. A lot of people think because we're moving to the Tesla port, the cables are going to be thinner and lighter, but they're not. No, it's going to be the same cable that you see on Electrify America or EVgo, just with a Tesla plug at the end. So they're still going to be hard to wrangle.

[Matt Farah]

Why do people. Because on Tesla chargers they are.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So Tesla will over boost their cables by quite a bit.

[Matt Farah]

Oh yeah, we talked about that with Ali. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So, so that's, that's one interesting thing. The, the problem with other cars using superchargers is superchargers currently don't support high voltage. So every supercharger is limited to 500 volts, which means if you bring your R1s.

[Matt Farah]

What?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, if you bring your R1s, if you bring a, you know, Mustang Mach e or an F150 Lightning or some normal low voltage electric car, they charge natively with the supercharger network just like any other DC charger. If you bring a Taycan or a lucid or an ionic five.

[Matt Farah]

So you're talking about 900 volt. Anything over 400 volts?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Okay, so that's where it's high and not high.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

In our world. Yeah. So, so like above 500 volts, technically, like in that 800 volt class, you'll hear that, but no car is like exactly 800 volts. It's just, are you a 400 volt class or an 800 volt? Like Hyundai Kia will say their EV9 is 800 volt, but it's really 530 volts or 550. So just what, you know, what side of the 400 are you on?

[Matt Farah]

All right.

[Kyle Connor]

And those cars have to use boosting technology on board the vehicle in order to charge.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So as an example, let's take, let's take a Taycan. You take a Taycan to a Tesla supercharger, and there's many superchargers now that have the Magic Dock adapter built in. There's a handful that are open to everyone already. So even though Porsche doesn't have the, you know, Volkswagen Group doesn't have the native access yet, you can still use some stations. You plug it into a supercharger and it has to kick on an extra module in the car that basically takes the power from the supercharger at low voltage and steps it up to the pack, to the battery pack. Okay, so there's many different technologies on how to do this.

[Matt Farah]

And would that work the same if you plugged into like a 50 or a fucking. A level 2 or some other kind of CCS charger? This is just for Tesla chargers.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, there's very few CCS chargers left that are low voltage only. There's a couple 50 kilowatts out there.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But pretty much anything over 50 kilowatt supports up to a thousand or 950.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So a lucid at a supercharger and lucid air can only charge at 50kW 45.

[Matt Farah]

That's not great.

[Kyle Connor]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

So it's emergencies only for that car.

[Kyle Connor]

It's emergencies. Taycan's can do about 130. Macan can do about 130. They have completely different ways of interfacing, by the way. And Cybertruck, when you charge it at a supercharger, Cybertruck's 800 volts. It just like Macan, splits the battery in half so it goes into split paper.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So it's essentially you'll have a, you know, you have two separate sections of your battery that are wired together in parallel. Then with the cybertruck, while you're charging, it's low voltage. Then when you unplug, they switch back to series configuration and go to high voltage.

[Matt Farah]

Weird.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Hummer does it for fast charging, so the Hummer does it the opposite way. Silverado, etc. So when you drive those trucks around, they are operating at like 350 volts nominal. Because the rest of the ultium stuff is designed to work with Equinox and Blazer and all the motors. So they work with low Voltage stuff. But to get the high power charging, when you plug into ccs, you'll hear a KA chunk. And now the Hummer EV is high voltage.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

To charge faster.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So that's a problem with this supercharging thing is currently Tesla does not natively support, you know, thousand volt architecture to charge every vehicle at its maximum capacity and they require vehicles to have boosting technology on board.

[Matt Farah]

So getting the headline that you're opening your supercharger network to everybody is a fantastic amount of good press that you're getting. How much real world good is that actually doing?

[Kyle Connor]

So far they've only opened it up or the automakers that have worked with Tesla to actually get full access are low voltage cars. So it's worked pretty well so far. And I think Ford owners, you know, it really happened because of Jim Farley and the Ford getting access. And it's been a huge enabler for Rivian trips and Ford trips and et cetera, et cetera. Volvo Polestar now have access and a few others. So that works really well. The question comes with Hyundai. Hyundai. They're the first ones to put the physical port on their car.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And that's a car that cannot charge very fast at superchargers. So.

[Matt Farah]

So it's actually more annoying to use the chargers that it can charge fast at.

[Kyle Connor]

Yes. Because you need an adapter now to use ea.

[Matt Farah]

But is EA gonna be forced to switch to the other cables?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I think 50% by sometime next year EA will switch to next or something like that.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So the problem with the Hyundai situation is they'll charge at about 130 kilowatts. Now the brand new ones with the native ports, the old ones will only do about 80 or 100 or so kilowatts at the supercharger network. But now you're selling a car that's known for its fantastic charging performance and there's a handful of chargers in the whole country that can natively charge it fast without an adapter.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And that to me just seems they should have held off for a little while.

[Matt Farah]

I think think this is, it's a tough, it's, it's hard to like be an automotive journalist and talk about this stuff because it's so. It's like real deeply nerdy and about something that isn't like a recreational thing. It's not like we're talking about track performance, we're talking about things that, that dictate how easy or hard this car is to, to use.

[Kyle Connor]

Yes.

[Matt Farah]

In situations where that Thing matters, but in a way that is technical. Far beyond the capability of the average person.

[Kyle Connor]

And even the average. Not capability, that's the wrong word, but knowledge base.

[Matt Farah]

The knowledge base. And even the average journalist, even including an experienced journalist like me.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah, I think we're, we see it where a lot of our friends in the industry will call me up, be like, why am I charging here? And I'm like, well, here's like five different possibilities as to why. And I really am trying to get everyone on the same page here of voltage amperage charging infrastructure. To me, charging performance matters just as much as track performance.

[Matt Farah]

Well, it probably matters more to people that are buying these cars. To me, how an EV behaves every day is way more important than how it behaves on the fucking track. I have not been convinced that I want to take an EV to the track, even though I've taken an Ioniq. I've driven all the best ones on the track.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, you were the shoe for your thing. This.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. So like, yeah, it was, I mean it was, it was fun. The only way it could have been better is if it wasn't EV of the year.

[Kyle Connor]

Sure, absolutely. Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

That's not the thing I want to.

[Kyle Connor]

Join on the next one. That looked really fun.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, it was fun. And like, it's not just like, just trying to set a very fast lap time in an EV is a very difficult thing to do. And. And unlike a fucking gas car, you can't practice it and then do it because you're literally burning off the car's performance. I mean, Jethro, who admittedly is the number one driver at the magazine in the gas cars for performance car of the year, he gets to do a bunch of practice laps. And he's not. There is a fixed number of laps he's supposed to do with each car. But like, it's not like, you know, lap four is gonna be. You don't have 50 less horsepower than lap two, you know?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah, the tracking thing. So on the charging side, you have cars that natively don't interface with the network. The high voltage ones. Version 4 charging has been promised, long promised from Tesla and it's long overdue. And I think it's really a shame how long it's taken them to get it out. Finally they just announced it like a month or two ago. Native high voltage charging, 500 kilowatt output per port. But it is a load shared situation.

[Zach Klapman]

Is that them planning for the future of their vehicles that they Want to have more high voltage or is it just because there are going to be so many other cars from other companies that are using high voltage? Because it seems like Model 3 and Y and S are these low voltage systems, right?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Well, cybertruck today is high voltage. Yeah. I don't know what the rationale. I'm sure it's a mix of both. I mean the future is higher voltage without question for sort of the higher end cars. And In China they're 900v, a couple cars are Lucids, go up to 924 full. Like the real class leading stuff is very high voltage. And then you have other issues with the version 3 superchargers. The last big one that I'll hit you with and not bore you because I could talk for nine hours on this one. This is the cable overheating process problem.

[Matt Farah]

And this relates back to thin cables.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So Teslas, as you know, because you've tested them and charged them and driven them, they charge really fast for a very short period of time.

[Matt Farah]

Right.

[Kyle Connor]

So when you plug in at 5%, boom, 250 kilowatts, it'll rip for like a couple minutes and then they have a really awful charging curve, all of them. And they'll come right down to, you know, by the time you're at 50%, you're at 100 or 150 kilowatts, like significantly under your peak performance. When you plug a Silverado into the supercharger Network, that's a 200 plus kilowatt hour battery pack that is staying in low voltage mode, by the way.

[Matt Farah]

Is that thing 200 plus kilowatts? It really is.

[Kyle Connor]

Silverado Hummer 215 usable. Yeah. And charging, you're, you're putting in more because there's losses. So it's 0 to 100 charging sessions, like 230, 240.

[Matt Farah]

God damn.

[Kyle Connor]

And you know, it could be like a hundred dollar charging.

[Matt Farah]

You really, you probably noticed that on your home electric bill pretty significantly like most EVs. And I don't mean to sound elitist because if you track every single dollar on your electric bill, then maybe you would notice. But if you have like a single family home and a family and you're running computers and refrigerators and things like that, and it's not something that you think about budgeting constantly. The truth is you don't really notice charging your EV at home.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. It also depends on your area and your.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, but like it's not a crazy amount of money, but with a pack that size, you might actually notice it. So much juice.

[Kyle Connor]

Not even the size, it's the efficiency. Regardless of the size, you have to replenish the electricity. So the, the less efficient your car is, the more just like a combustion car, you're just paying for it at home.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And like where I live, I pay dirt cheap. Electricity don't care. But here in Southern California, it can, can get very expensive.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Especially during the wrong hours. And then you're like paranoid about what hours can you charge your car? And you have to set everything up in the back end and it's like that. This just needs to get solved right away so we don't have to worry about demand load profile from the average user.

[Matt Farah]

You turn my piss into electricity, bro. Wait, I got a tank. I don't have a plan yet, but I'm peeing in a tank every day. And eventually I will, I'll run my car on that piss.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep. That's like half of our audience right there, by the way. So. Sorry gu.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, if I can, I'll just like make a bomb out of it or something. I don't know, turn it into drugs. I don't, I don't really know. I haven't got that far. I'm just peeing in jars, man.

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, I see some wild stuff in our comment sections and you're not far off, which is scary. But yeah, so you've got, you know that, that Silverado sitting there in low voltage mode because the Tesla doesn't support it at high voltage and it's just sitting at 500amps for like 40 minutes and it can't do that. The cable. So the version 3 supercharger with those little thin cables. Yeah, they're 350amp nominal, so that's what they're rated for. They'll run all day.

[Matt Farah]

And this thing's running at 500?

[Kyle Connor]

Well, the Teslas will run at 712. 7, 700amps. But it works fine because they, they hold it for a tiny bit of time and then they come down. Yeah, but as soon as you need to support other cars, now you'll plug in, you'll sit at 500amps for a while and then it'll just prematurely derate. So then the supercharger network can't even deliver the charging performance because of the cables. So that's been solved with the new version 4 dispenser. So there's evolutions to this, but it just feels like what would have been a better plan, I think with Tesla would be hey, we know we're going to open the network or we know we're going to eventually build cars with better charging performance or whatever and put all that stuff in first so that when you let everyone use the network, it actually works really well.

[Matt Farah]

That would have been nice, wouldn't it? But this company seems like a real hamster wheel type of outfit, doesn't it?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, you know, I. I definitely follow it closer than most and half the stuff that goes on, I'm like, wow, that's not how I would do it. Or that's.

[Matt Farah]

Your car came missing a bunch of things. You know, like they could have waited until they had those things to deliver the car baby.

[Kyle Connor]

Just saying it went in for the. The. My cybertruck went in for service a couple weeks ago. No, no, that.

[Matt Farah]

No, it didn't. That's fake news. Electric cars, they never service. No, he said. He said they never need to be serviced ever. He said the king decreed.

[Kyle Connor]

They replaced the whole side panels on my truck.

[Matt Farah]

What?

[Zach Klapman]

Why?

[Kyle Connor]

I saw the service bill and it was, you know, it's a warrant. I didn't even know they were doing that. Yeah, so you know that like the, the triangle upper piece. Yeah, that you.

[Matt Farah]

I remember because it fits so well.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure it's because of our reviews. I don't know, I hadn't heard them doing that for other ones, but they. Yeah, they were like, oh, we put new side panels on your truck. I'm like, you replaced this?

[Matt Farah]

How was yours wrapped?

[Kyle Connor]

No.

[Matt Farah]

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna say, if they replaced it, I wonder what they would have done.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[Zach Klapman]

They're starting to offer wrapped.

[Matt Farah]

This is one piece. Oh, yeah, we gotta do. You got a new panel.

[Zach Klapman]

Was it this thing?

[Matt Farah]

Right?

[Zach Klapman]

Yeah, yours was like. Yours was poking out like two miles every.

[Kyle Connor]

Every few weeks. I'd push the panel in, reach in hand, tighten the bolt under there and then it'll be fine till it backed itself off again.

[Matt Farah]

I like that you have to do things on a 2024 model year vehicle that you would do on a 1968 Morgan Plus 4.

[Kyle Connor]

It's great content.

[Matt Farah]

Royal Enfield.

[Zach Klapman]

Enfield Ownership.

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, when the car breaks any car, that's the best thing in the office.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. If Kai. If Kyle buys it run.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

He knows some shit's gonna go down. Just waiting.

[Kyle Connor]

Video content.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. If you see Kyle or Frank Freddie buying one of them, get out.

[Kyle Connor]

I saw Freddy got a roadster. An original Tesla Roadster. I don't know what I feel. I just seen the thumbnail.

[Matt Farah]

But yeah, I mean, he, you know, the garbage. Freddy, if you're out there, come pick your box up from my South Bay store.

[Kyle Connor]

What does he have there?

[Matt Farah]

Freddy hits me up and goes, hey, you know that Rudy Klein auction? That's the junkyard auction from downtown la. He's like, I bought something. Can I, like, can I, can you, can I, can you get it? And like, I'll send a truck, you know, in a couple of weeks. And it shows up and this is by far the worst Audi Quattro coupe I have ever seen. It looks like there was a real fire happening in there.

[Kyle Connor]

Really?

[Matt Farah]

It's not good.

[Kyle Connor]

It's like a mid-80s one or whatever.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, early-80s. Yeah. Like a special short wheelbase Stig Blondequist one. Like one that some professor at the University of Berlin drove for a couple years.

[Kyle Connor]

Like, not.

[Matt Farah]

It's not a good one. It's just a very shitty old Audi.

[Kyle Connor]

I'm fascinated by the YouTuber cars situation. I love it.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, I get like, I totally get what Freddy's doing here.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

But not with the Audi. I get what he's doing with almost everything up to and including the P1, although I think his math was bad on that one. Makes for good content, but the rest of it, but this one, it's like the upside is you have a nice, like pretty shitty Audi.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay. Like I, I, you know, I can justify any car by content. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Did you see Speak, speaking of car, did you see Shaq, his two door lucid air?

[Kyle Connor]

He got it painted and took the B pillar out and put a long door on it.

[Matt Farah]

Long door, yeah. I actually think it looks kind of good.

[Kyle Connor]

Looks great. And the wheels are choice. I love it.

[Matt Farah]

Did you see it? Like I, like I turning a lucid into a personal luxury coupe. It really does look like a cl.

[Zach Klapman]

Yeah, that looks awesome.

[Kyle Connor]

It's sick.

[Matt Farah]

Wow.

[Kyle Connor]

Just needs to be a drop top.

[Matt Farah]

It's, it's, it's actually like really not bad. And the wheels look good and the color is right. The matched roof is great.

[Kyle Connor]

I don't know, that might be a factory color now that I think about it. I think they offer Zenith. Red is the name.

[Matt Farah]

I am into this. I miss the era of Shaq going long wheelbase sports car. Remember the Gallardo in the 360? He stretched like a foot. This is, that's an excellent job. Well done. Mark Zuckerberg and his Cayenne minivan are an abomination compared to this GT minivan. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

But then also got a really nice GT3, which.

[Matt Farah]

Imagine. Let me ask you this, Kyle. Do you think that in. In Zuckerberg's Turbo GT minivan, do you think they reprogrammed the rear steer appropriately.

[Kyle Connor]

Or do you think if it was exhibit. It was done to the highest standard and the best quality of engineering?

[Matt Farah]

Imagine what happens when you go into a corner with that rear steer.

[Kyle Connor]

Dude, it must be. Well, just. I'm just trying to figure out beyond rear steer, like how the ESP calibration would handle stuff. It must be all fucked up. Yeah, fucked up. Think about the wiring looms too. Cars are complicated now.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, it's a Turbo gt. It's got like three and a half degrees of negative camber at the front.

[Kyle Connor]

Why wouldn't they do the boxy one? Just get a Turbo S. Not the GT smoky thing.

[Matt Farah]

I do not understand. It's all dumb, that's all.

[Kyle Connor]

It really didn't even look good. I hate to judge other people's builds, but I was not in that particular one.

[Matt Farah]

No. And the problem was, he was all, Priscilla wanted a minivan, so I built her this. It's like you missed what she wanted in, she walks out, she's like, I.

[Zach Klapman]

Just wanted an Odyssey.

[Matt Farah]

I just wanted. Yeah, the one with the vacuum.

[Kyle Connor]

No, they should have just put a demon engine or whatever in a Pacifica and then there you go.

[Matt Farah]

That actually would have been the right move. Hellcat. A Pacifica. There's your van.

[Kyle Connor]

Absolutely.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. That's actually the correct move.

[Kyle Connor]

Also, if Stellantis wants any chance at survival, they need to do that. I just drove their electric. It was so bad.

[Matt Farah]

Speaking of, Freddie, wasn't Freddy going to do that? Didn't he buy a van and was gonna put a. He bought a van and was gonna put a Hellcat powertrain in the Pacifica.

[Kyle Connor]

They'll sell you like a hell of a.

[Matt Farah]

He was gonna do that.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay.

[Matt Farah]

That was like a thing. I don't know.

[Kyle Connor]

I'm sure someone's done it.

[Matt Farah]

He's. He's too busy re. Pimping autos. I don't know the. Where were we?

[Kyle Connor]

We're Superchargers. Negatives. There's.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, right. Who's handling the Tesla superchargers? The best. Don't say Tesla.

[Kyle Connor]

Tesla, Ford.

[Matt Farah]

Ford.

[Kyle Connor]

Because they don't charge that well. Yeah, so they're not overheating.

[Matt Farah]

They're only. They're only running at a buck fifty anyway.

[Kyle Connor]

But the problem is their ports are so far back, you gotta like pull that thing right up.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So apparently there's like extension Cables in the works, which sounds scary to me. And I'm like, you gotta have good temperature monitoring. And I don't know, the whole thing's kind of a mess right now. Which, which honestly, the quicker it happens, the sooner we can get through it. The quicker we can get to native ports, the better it'll be. That's the end of the story. But Tesla needs to get high voltage charging out as soon as possible.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I'm excited to have an emergency backup. That's really all I want is like, if I can't get to the charger I want. And there's a supercharger there. Okay, that's a great way to look at it because we talked about this before. I don't have range anxiety, I have infrastructure anxiety. I know where that charger is. I just can't be sure it'll work when I get there.

[Kyle Connor]

Totally.

[Matt Farah]

Has that gotten a lot better? Yes, in our experience, it's improved a lot.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So we just actually as sort of an infrastructure test as a video series. I don't know. We raced 10 electric cars across the country.

[Matt Farah]

I saw that.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, it's called the I90 surge. We've done it before with like trucks on the low end. But we took the longest range and fastest charging EVs and went Seattle to Boston nonstop. And not a single person was strapped. Going across the whole country, arriving at, you know, 0% at many charging stations. Every single station provided power and in general, most of them provided full power on the first try. There was a handful of problems, of course, that I think you're going to be, you know, expected to have issues with. And yeah, the surge is on the out of spec motoring channel. Not the reviews one.

[Matt Farah]

Sorry, it's on my 30 seconds.

[Zach Klapman]

I'll go to one of your nine channels.

[Kyle Connor]

It doesn't matter. But anyway, yeah, so that, that series did great for us. It was really fun. Had a bunch of friends go and.

[Matt Farah]

Was there, was it really a charging speed and infrastructure test in the sense of, okay, everyone has to keep it at 85 or under on the highway. So it's not a highway race.

[Kyle Connor]

No, no, we, we kept it to strict maximum speed limits of no more than 10 over the speed limit and in 80 zones, no more than 85.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So it was literally 85. And then it, then it really comes down to the cars. So if you have a long range one, you can go farther up front, but then if you have a fast charging one, will you catch it?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And it was really interesting, the results. So we actually ran. So there was technically eight competitors. And then we had two outliers. We had a first generation Tesla Model S, which was the first sort of long distance capable ev. So I wanted to see how much improvement we have.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Kyle Connor]

And we took a gas car.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

And the Taycan won by like a lot.

[Matt Farah]

By hours, even against the gas car. No, that can't be right.

[Kyle Connor]

Correct. Not against the gas car.

[Matt Farah]

Tycon won by hours.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep. So. So it was gas car. And then like an. An hour and 40 minutes behind. That was Taycan across the whole country.

[Matt Farah]

That's actually pretty good.

[Kyle Connor]

It was amazing.

[Matt Farah]

That's pretty good.

[Kyle Connor]

And then like, how much.

[Matt Farah]

What did you drive?

[Kyle Connor]

I7.

[Matt Farah]

Okay. All right.

[Kyle Connor]

I know it was gonna suck. I mean, the car's amazing, but I knew it was gonna suck for performance.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Okay, so Taycom. And is that like a. Like a rear wheel drive long range, or is it all wheel drive, long range, rear drive?

[Kyle Connor]

We got to get the full range species back. All of them, actually. Every single car there, except for the Model S was spec'd in their maximum road trip configuration, which we really. We put this thing together like six weeks or five weeks before the test. We hounded all the automakers to get us the specs we needed, and they made it happen. It was amazing. So shout out to all the automakers that took part, which is almost all of them.

[Matt Farah]

So what was the gap between Taycan and the last place ev over 10 hours? Oh, that's a lot.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot. And then, yeah, maybe the last place compared because that was the Model S. I. We have somewhere the list of it.

[Matt Farah]

But the last place EV was the.

[Kyle Connor]

Old Model S. Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Really?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, by a lot. That was like overnight.

[Matt Farah]

So. So what, what about that car? Couldn't. Could. Didn't work today. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So the old Model S doesn't really have the range initially, so they were one of the first ones to stop. And their charging performance, they can peak.

[Matt Farah]

Was it like an. At least like an 85 plus or something like that? Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Full range spec. And it actually had the newer aero wheels on it.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

So a slight advantage. The problem is the charging performance. So when that car launched, it actually charged pretty well. But one of the downsides of software updates is your car can get worse. Of course it can get better. But you always mention this, that it could get worse.

[Matt Farah]

It can. And you don't need a fucking electric car to know that. Phones get worse.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep.

[Matt Farah]

If you have a phone, that's three or four years old, it's slower than it was when it was new.

[Kyle Connor]

And that's exactly what happened to this Model S. And the charging performance is nowhere near as good as it was when it first came out. And that was also cool to kind of show that.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And so it peaks at 130kW, which is faster than when it was new, but it holds it till 8%. Oh, so you gotta plug in zero.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And then it just. And at 50%, you're at like 40 kilowatts, it's like dead.

[Matt Farah]

So. Yeah. So that's only for plugging in at home and running errands around town. Pretty much, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

That car can do a trip. It did a trip, has free lifetime charging, whatever that worked. But no adaptive cruise, none of that stuff. So shout out to the team that drove that second place.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. The terrible fucking driver.

[Kyle Connor]

Second place was the cheapest car there, which was the new Model three long range, rear wheel drive.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Which Tesla actually sent us a car for that, for the whole thing, which I was really kind of surprised with because we're hard on Tesla.

[Matt Farah]

They sent us a car for performance EV of the year as well, which. And they sent us one of their head chassis engineers as well.

[Kyle Connor]

I was surprised they're getting more involved.

[Matt Farah]

I like the Model 3. I really like that. It feels like the size of a car from the 90s and like the visibility. I was talking to Zach earlier, I was like, it's like an E30, like really good visibility, really low cal. It's such a, like a cool little thing compared to all these other, like, you know, big boats.

[Kyle Connor]

It just sucks. There's no competition for the price.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

That's what really drives me nuts. And that's why those Chinese EVs are.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And that's why I'm so excited about. About them. Because it's like, oh, it's not just Tesla doing this. There's other good cars for the money. So Model 3 was second. Third place was Ioniq 6, the second cheapest car there. Amazing charging performance, good efficiency.

[Matt Farah]

Can't do it. Too weird looking. Yeah, just too weird.

[Kyle Connor]

Technically, the Ioniq 6 is faster in our simulated test than the Model 3, but the chargers are farther off the highway than the superchargers.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, yeah, they were with all matters.

[Kyle Connor]

15 minutes on a 3,000 mile journey. And they both pushed.

[Matt Farah]

That's pretty good. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. The lucid we expected to be a little bit better. And it was going to come in fourth. But at the Last charging stop, the team ran out of charge. They miscalculated right at the end. And the car also. It's complicated, but essentially every single stop and everything we've done with the lucid showed that it could go 20 or 30 miles past zero. And then it didn't many cycles. It kind of lost a little bit. Bit of, you know, where you were and they hit zero. As soon as they hit zero, boom. They only need to go a few miles past car shut off.

[Matt Farah]

Oh.

[Kyle Connor]

So I. I would have been in the same situation.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

His past performance. But anyway, yeah, it was pretty cool. Fun.

[Matt Farah]

It's a cool trip and it's a cool thing to show. I think it's really interesting. Does. Does anything learned on that trip really indicate how any of these cars would be to use as every day cars?

[Kyle Connor]

No. It's not an everyday test.

[Matt Farah]

It's a road trip test.

[Kyle Connor]

It's a entertainment piece and a great way to benchmark all the cars against each other in extreme scenario. Sure, it's a bit like doing a track comparison, but instead it's a road trip comparison.

[Matt Farah]

Do I think. I. I think for a road trip I would. I mean, my choice would be the. The Taycan.

[Kyle Connor]

It's just clearly amazing.

[Matt Farah]

It's just such a monster on a road trip. Such a nice car.

[Kyle Connor]

So right after this.

[Matt Farah]

And did that have hydraulic suspension too?

[Kyle Connor]

No, that was bass.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Right after this, we turned around and my buddies Timon and Drew joined me. We broke the Cannonball New York to LA in that one. And we got it under 40 hours for electric.

[Matt Farah]

I'm sure Porsche was stoked about that.

[Kyle Connor]

They.

[Matt Farah]

They can't say.

[Kyle Connor]

They can't say, but they loved it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. That's the rear wheel drive. Taycan is like my favorite. My favorite one. I wish you could get the cross the wagon as rear wheel drive.

[Kyle Connor]

You can in Europe, of course. Y.

[Matt Farah]

Of course. And another reason. Europe.

[Kyle Connor]

I drove one of the rear drive ones from Stuttgart to Istanbul this year. It was amazing, that trip. Best thing I've ever done.

[Matt Farah]

That's cool.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I was like charging in like the back of some, like Babushka's house in some random place.

[Matt Farah]

Crazy.

[Kyle Connor]

And it was so cool.

[Matt Farah]

Wow, that's.

[Kyle Connor]

We took four Tyco.

[Matt Farah]

That's a lot of unknowns.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that was the point.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

It was amazing.

[Matt Farah]

Did the car find those chargers or using apps over there?

[Kyle Connor]

Mostly apps, yeah. Yeah. You leave the Porsche charging network after Serbia and then you're going through like Bulgaria.

[Matt Farah]

Can you acknowledge you are leaving the Porsche network to Unknown Territories worked really well.

[Kyle Connor]

That was, you know, just the guy who runs Taycan Coms, Mike. He was just like, I want to go on a road trip with my buddies and had like a couple media from around the world come.

[Matt Farah]

That sounds fun.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah, I loved it.

[Matt Farah]

And obviously you got your hair done while you were there. Let's go to the people, the Patreon. They have a lot to say today. And of course, if you want to ask questions for the program, if you want to talk to the guests, if you want to get the show ad free, get it ahead of everybody else, get it. What else do they get, Zach? Exclusive merchandising collabs do that.

[Zach Klapman]

You can show live. You can get ad free stuff before it goes out to the public. I put them on there, that's fine. And if you go to champion tier, you also get ad free versions of our car reviews.

[Matt Farah]

Essellent. Nice. Cam says. When do you think EVs will be seen more regularly at the track? Currently most clubs I track with don't allow them at all. Not that I would ever want an EV on track, but curious as to when you think they'll become more commonplace. This is a really weird way to write this because it's part of the reason that EVs are banned, I think from certain club events and track days. Think is really kind of a misunderstanding and they don't have the appropriate training or maybe the appropriate equipment to fight an electric car fire.

[Kyle Connor]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

Funny enough though, at a track, it's not like that the fire, assuming the person gets out of the car, it's not like the fire is that likely to burn the whole place down. So it's weird to me that there's so vehemently against it.

[Zach Klapman]

I mean, would the concern be like it would damage the tarmac of the track surface more because it would just.

[Matt Farah]

Burn, burn, burn, potentially.

[Kyle Connor]

I mean, it's really. So first of all, the risk of a fire in an electric car is less.

[Matt Farah]

Yes.

[Kyle Connor]

But if it happens, which is very, you know, very rare, I want to stress it's almost impossible to extinguish.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And they burn hot and it's crazy. So I. I mean, our local ice racing series in Colorado, that buddy of mine took part and they just banned electric cars. I don't know if it's because he's been winning this whole time or if it's because they're genuinely concerned.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, literally, if you're racing on ice and it is capable of melting.

[Kyle Connor]

All the way, it's a snow course. It's not like on a lake, okay.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, really?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, well then that's weird. What could happen?

[Kyle Connor]

That was my whole thing. Maybe I'm missing something. But honestly, I can bring. I've brought electric cars on tens of tracks now, maybe 30 different tracks around the world and I've never had an issue getting them on, on there. I've never been like told no.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So I just think that's it's not such a common, common thing. Maybe from club events. Yeah. But if you want to like rent a track to test or go to a track day, like all of our local tracks I've been to are like electric car, they don't care.

[Matt Farah]

I think it's the rule of the person putting on that track day. Maybe it has to do with their insurance. Maybe they don't want to spend the extra money to have an EV ready fire crew there, you know, whatever.

[Zach Klapman]

And this also might be leftover anecdotal evidence. There was a Corvette club, I think.

[Matt Farah]

Last year earlier they were gonna ban erase.

[Zach Klapman]

They said they're banning E Rays. So maybe this is just carryover.

[Matt Farah]

It's so dumb. It's 1.9 kilowatt hour hybrid. It's the tiniest little fucking battery. It's so lame. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Cause every Mercedes now is 48 volt mild hybrid. So where do you draw the line?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I mean I do think until we have pretty much trackside charge infrastructure, then it's annoying. But like I have yet. I mean, and I understand There are hardcore EV track day people and EVs for certain time attack stuff and Pikes Peak are very well suited. But I have yet to find as a recreational track day driver any EV that I go. There's my track toy right there.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I totally agree. Electric cars are incredibly capable in a straight line, some of them handle really well. But they've never been fun for me and never enjoyable on track.

[Matt Farah]

Alex Hay says could the affordability of used EVs be what gets people into them? Conversely, does having an internal combustion vehicle become a status symbol similar to a luxury mechanical watch? I do think having knobs, buttons, levers is a status symbol. Look at Pagani, look at Bugatti, look at Koenigsegg. Look at these cars that are millions of dollars. What do they have fucking knobs and buttons. They don't have one touchscreen that controls everything. A touchscreen is luxury up to about 150 grand and then it goes off a cliff.

[Kyle Connor]

Totally agree. The craftsmanship in the interact in the car makes a huge Difference to the, you know, just experience going down the road. And if you're looking for an experience, then it's not on a screen because we touch screens all day long on our phones. So if you're looking for something different or higher quality. Totally agree. Physical touch points. Combustion engines become a bit of a status symbol. Certainly in certain markets they're already there. In Norway, if you drive a combustion car, damn. You pay twice the price for that car and like you're balling in that thing and everyone else is driving each EV. Totally. And the affordability of used EVs certainly is a great place to start for a first electric car. Like why wouldn't you get like a. I bought a $3,000 E Golf just to bomb around town like as an extra car. It's awesome.

[Matt Farah]

If you have the space.

[Kyle Connor]

If you have the space.

[Matt Farah]

Cars take up space, cars take up resources. And so I still believe that the biggest hold back is the availability of charging, reliable charging in multifamily family living situations, apartment buildings, etc.

[Kyle Connor]

It's a massive problem. And that's. That is a huge issue in urban environments. Multi unit dwelling charging is insane.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And there's no real good solution yet.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, there's.

[Kyle Connor]

There's like laws that say you can't stop someone from putting in charging, but what stops them is when it's. That's 400 grand.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spencer with a good question. Buying a depreciated EV that has lost a bunch of. A bunch of value since new is a great proposition, but does that bleeding ever stop? Is that depreciation going to continue? This is the problem possibly with that Taycan half price Taycan seems great, but if a half price Taycan loses fucking 50, 60% of that value in a couple years. Doug DeMuro was here last week and he was like dude, there is no bottom for a Taycan. The bottom is zero. Zero.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. At what point do these things bottom out? And you like. So we've seen some cars bottom out and just sit there for a few years. So like the 500e, the Leaf Market, they're all like five grand.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Then there's another tier at like ten grand for i3s and bolts and some other stuff.

[Matt Farah]

What is that? Early ass model S? 15 grand. 2015.

[Kyle Connor]

Not 20. Under 20.

[Matt Farah]

Under 20.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay. So I think Taycan's will get down there.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I think there's no, there is a floor, but it's low.

[Kyle Connor]

The problem with, with these evs are first of all, there's no. I just Did a video on this actually. There's no third party built out service network for them. If your Taycan breaks and you bring it to Porsche, they're going to say you need a 40,000, 50, 60, $70,000 new battery when it could just be a contactor.

[Matt Farah]

That's like a five dollar problem, right? Yeah, that is a problem. Who the is going to work on that?

[Kyle Connor]

I mean a battery doesn't just die, the whole thing never dies, it's always a sub component. And so you get screwed with that.

[Zach Klapman]

You know, for eventually there will be an all electric M3 and they can say, you know, it makes sense from a brand perspective. Worked with Mustang Mach E, they just do the marketing thing. They're like M3 is about this, not about gas.

[Kyle Connor]

I'm not a good marketing guy. I don't understand how half of it works. Just I like cool fast cars and I'm pretty powertrain agnostic. So I would be cool with whatever they're doing with electric. And I think what BMW is doing now with electric really sucks from a technical perspective and what they could do in the future is pretty promising.

[Matt Farah]

Chris N. Says, who is leading the EV tech race in terms of new tech and thinking outside the box? The Chinese.

[Kyle Connor]

Well, so from a powertrain and like I would say from a calibration perspective, Lucid is really doing amazing work from making cars that don't run out of steam at speed, that you know, in general are really nicely tuned. I drove the new Gravity and just was so blown away with that thing in terms of handling and power and. But it's an suv so you know, and then in terms of software, who's winning? I mean it's really Rivian I think is coming for everyone. Waseem runs the Rivian software team. He's amazing. He's part of that new also Volkswagen jv. It's crazy to me that Volkswagen could not come up with their own software to run their cars and they had to hire a Rivian to do it.

[Matt Farah]

I'm not surprised. I think to get that software, to get software right you need a little bit of whimsy that Germans don't have. I don't think it's gotta be kind of fun and colorful in a way that they couldn't.

[Kyle Connor]

And it's also from an electrical architecture standpoint, Rivian's got that zonal architecture. So the Gen 2 one that you're driving is fundamentally different than the Gen 1 from an entire electrical system standpoint. Nothing is shared between. It's not like a little Facelift. It's like a completely different electrical arm.

[Zach Klapman]

Well, isn't that one of the benefits that VW got by giving Rivian a bunch of money? Like how they get this. Like, hey, you are the R and D. We take the tech. We don't need to design it ourselves.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And they get the hardware from Rivian and the tuning and all that stuff. But Rivian's doing incredible things. And the Chinese. Yeah, they're fast. The development time for Chinese cars is crazy. Crazy. They're like 16 to 18 months sometimes for some of these cars.

[Matt Farah]

Let's see. Ryan Morris. I think we kind of covered this. Love my Ionic 5. It's. Oh, never mind. That's the buy versus lease question. I think you Pretty much. I think I prefer to lease. If I was just a. If I was. And I don't. If I was a person who didn't create content for a living, I would just lease something in that mid, that middle, that Ioniq. Great car, you know, the Mach E. I happen to think it was a great daily driver. I was not using fast charging very often at home. It was perfect. But. Yeah, but we might. Maybe I'll buy something for content to see how it goes. Like a used Taycan. Because a lot of people ask us about used Taycans.

[Kyle Connor]

Used Tayons.

[Matt Farah]

Do a lot of people ask you about used Taycans?

[Kyle Connor]

All the time.

[Matt Farah]

Like, to the point where it would be worth you buying an early Taycan to see what happens.

[Kyle Connor]

No, I don't think so. The Taycan videos don't do that well for us. They do well, but they don't do enough to offset the cost versus, like, just getting a new. I just leased a new base Model 3 for Jordan, and it's like that has paid for itself ten times over.

[Matt Farah]

Really?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So, you know, from a business case. I don't. I don't think I. Plus, if I'm getting a Taycan, I want the new one with the fast charging. Yeah, our audience is interested in Bleeding edge. What's the craziest thing?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, our audience is interested in how they can get the exotic car experience for less money.

[Kyle Connor]

Right. What's cool is we have complete, completely different audiences.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And YouTube's been good for you?

[Matt Farah]

No, recently.

[Kyle Connor]

Awful.

[Matt Farah]

Awful.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. I noticed a dip the last few months on stuff, but it's come back.

[Matt Farah]

We've had a couple of good ones and some not good ones, but it's not been great. Yeah, it's not been great.

[Kyle Connor]

So maybe don't buy a used tech. I don't know.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. So I don't know if I want to that one. Let's see.

[Kyle Connor]

Tim A thanks for the shout out.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yeah. Shouts for the shout out to me. Oh. Clayton Stinger gts. What do you think of the idea of E Revs Extended Range EVs sort of like the upcoming Ram 1500, which is an EV that has a gas sort of generator on board. And I happen to think this is very cool.

[Kyle Connor]

Agreed. That's the perfect solution. You are a Volt lover, as am I. And my dad actually had an ELR recently, which was really cool.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

And he had a Volt up. No. Okay. He bought it. Made. My dad makes YouTube videos for out of spec now. So he bought it for content and sold it.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

It was really cool. The concept of having an electric towing and driving experience is wonderful when you're cruising around. As you mentioned, the best thing about driving an EV is the no lack of delay, no shifting. You just constant torque wherever you go. If you can pair that driving experience without the worry of extreme inefficiency while towing and when you get to a charging station having to unhook and charge deep so it's all bad while towing, then an extended range EV makes perfect sense for a pickup truck application. And the only ones that we've heard of doing it is for Ram so far. But Stellantis sucks at building electric cars.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yeah. They're not great.

[Kyle Connor]

Suck that, that. I can't get over how bad that Dodge Charger was. Like, really? It was offensive. It was.

[Matt Farah]

I saw one about a month ago at Bondura or Bradford. Excuse me.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And I think. Was the launch there.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that's where we went.

[Matt Farah]

So I saw an orange one there and I just looked at it and I went, oh, boy, this is not great.

[Zach Klapman]

I think it looks good. But I watched the Throttle House review, which mirrors what you said. You guys are probably there together.

[Kyle Connor]

I was a different way.

[Matt Farah]

Okay.

[Zach Klapman]

And they were not. I mean, it's bad.

[Kyle Connor]

I couldn't find a single redeeming quality about the car. It was not class leading in any category. It weighs a thousand pounds more than a plaid. It makes just over half the power. It's the same money. It's like twice the price of Model 3 Performance. It's not fast, it's not fun. Has shit software every at the tuning. And it has a shifter. Right. And the sound thing was crazy. And dude, it does front wheel drive burnouts. What? Muscle car. They're like, oh, it spins the tires. I'm like, it spins the wrong ones. What are you doing? And then you drive these Chinese cars that are 40 grand that will wipe the floor of this thing. I'm like, they are getting everything so wrong, bro.

[Matt Farah]

It's the 1980s all over again in Detroit. They're back. Deregulation, baby. Let's fucking go.

[Kyle Connor]

They just were like, just wait for the gas one. I'm like, yeah, honestly. Yes. But don't launch a car like this.

[Matt Farah]

Tim A actually has a good, good, good idea there. The exception to EV depreciation, is it the electric G wagon? I, I don't. What do you think?

[Kyle Connor]

I don't know. I, I, Doug, I saw Doug's short. He was like, he doesn't think it will depreciate.

[Matt Farah]

I think it will split the difference between the excellent depreciation of an AMG GT63 or EXC G63 and an EV. Like it'll be better than a regular EV but it will not be as good as a regular.

[Kyle Connor]

I mean if you park a 580electric and a 63 next to each other, most people are still going to go for the 63. So in the used market you're essentially doing that same thing. You just might have to drive 10 miles to the next dealer or whatever. Why would most people choose the 63 over the electric? For the same money. They're the same money. New.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

So I think it is going to depreciate more, but I love it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I think it'll split the difference between a regular G wagon and a regular EV in terms of percentage depreciation. I would agree with that last one, Chris Doyle and then we're getting out of here and it's a two parter and one part sort of combines with Busch drives a 911. Part question 1 Can electric cars ever feel analogy could one offer the same driving experience as a Radwood era vehicle? I think fundamentally no.

[Kyle Connor]

No, I agree probably not. Also I'm not really sure why you would want that. In my opinion. If you want a Radwood era vehicle, buy one of those and drive that.

[Matt Farah]

Well. I think what people do want is a new car that is as engaging as that Radwood era vehicle.

[Kyle Connor]

And they don't want us are getting less engaging.

[Matt Farah]

I know that's a problem too. That's definitely a problem too. And it's, I don't think EVs need to solve combustion cars problem. But I mean the thing that makes the Ioniq 5N everybody's favorite EV this year is that they're trying to do an engagement thing, even at the cost of outright speed.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. So the Ioniq5n thing, I don't think is engaging enough to fool you. I think it's enough to have fun like a video game, but, you know, it's not real. Sure. And I don't fully understand your point about driving fast with the noise thing. So when I drive, when I drove the 5N on track, I've had it on two different tracks now. I, and every other electric car, I actually turn all the sound off for setting times or doing something like that. And I always find it to be a bit distracting. But I've heard it from you and many others that I totally respect in the industry that the sound helps with corner entry speed.

[Matt Farah]

Not the sound, the gear gears.

[Kyle Connor]

The gears.

[Matt Farah]

The gears help with corner speed.

[Kyle Connor]

So then normal electric cars with the sound make no difference.

[Matt Farah]

Right. So with silence. Yeah. The sound is what doesn't what do it. It's the gears. So like, you know, if you are trained in gas cars, you go, okay, this is the third gear corner, fourth gear corner, second gear corner, fifth gear corner, etc. Etc. When you're in an electric car, particularly if it's a car like a press car that you don't know.

[Kyle Connor]

Right. That you're still used to. Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

You know, you don't really know how. How much to break, you know, for that corner entry. And you have fewer bits of information to choose from.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

So that's hard.

[Kyle Connor]

The gear thing was cool. I actually used it in traffic and that's where I loved it the most because I'm like, oh, that's pretty cool and ripped it up the canyon. But it like makes the car slower, you know.

[Matt Farah]

In my testing it was two seconds a lap slower with the manual gears. But I did have more fun driving it with the manual gears. I did enjoy it. And if I was doing a track day for fun in that car, I would use, use them.

[Kyle Connor]

Okay.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

I. But 5N is amazing. They did a great job on that.

[Matt Farah]

They did, yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

If they could just take a thousand pounds out of it, be amazing. They.

[Matt Farah]

Well, didn't they do that one that has like no body on it? They made one like a good. That was like a go kart. It looks pretty sick actually.

[Kyle Connor]

So cool.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Question two. Many older vehicles are worth a ton of money. Air cooled 911s, for example. Will EVS ever be a collector's item and more than a short term appliance? Circle B Tesla Roadster. Tesla Roadsters are collectible. Although they're the only. They're the only one.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I think that's the. That is literally the only one. I have some, like, old, like, very rare electric cars. I have a couple, like, first gen RAV4 EVS and B class electric. That's not old enough to be cool, but they're like all like a couple hundred bucks. They're not worth anything.

[Matt Farah]

A baker is maybe like 10 grand.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah. Well, there is a Detroit Electric. Those go for like 100 grand.

[Matt Farah]

Detroit Electrics, too. Okay.

[Kyle Connor]

Yep. So, yeah, I would say yes. Powertrain does not dictate collectability.

[Matt Farah]

But the math isn't great on it. I mean, it's not a guarantee that your car will be not collectible in the same way being internal combustion is not a guarantee your car will be collectible. But the math says if you have red hair, you are likely to have blue eyes, you know?

[Kyle Connor]

Exactly.

[Matt Farah]

And yeah, I wouldn't start collecting them now. No.

[Kyle Connor]

Don't get any of these ones. We're going through this very weird period of ev and I'm not exactly sure how it's gonna turn out. But now is not the time to buy a new electric car or at least one before the year's up. Like, I don't know when this show will go up, but, like, tomorrow. Okay. So in Colorado, you can get an EV6 for 150 bucks a month.

[Matt Farah]

Hell yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

You can get an EV9 for 300 bucks a month. There's some incredible deals out there. There. Hummer EVs are 500 bucks a month.

[Matt Farah]

Really?

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, if it wasn't such a terrible car, I would consider that.

[Kyle Connor]

Oh, they're hilarious. They drive over everything. But you're right, it's not a great vehicle. But, like, that's. That's the move right now. But don't. Don't buy one because the. The downside, risk of depreciation is just. Just, you know, you. It's so stupid.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yeah. Always a pleasure, sir.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And what did you think of James May's London London Fog? London. London. London Drizzle. London Drizzle. London Drizzle. Gin. Yeah.

[Kyle Connor]

Typically a gin guy, but really enjoyed it also knowing it came from the legend. James was cool.

[Matt Farah]

It tastes good.

[Kyle Connor]

Thought it was great.

[Matt Farah]

Even if it. Even if it came from some other fucking guy named James, it's still. Still very tasty. That was great. Out of spec, everything. There's like 20,000 fucking channels. Studios, reviews.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, that's where we try to post every day. And so we do like a long video every day on reviews and then stuff everywhere else. And that's. Yeah, ev nerd stuff. But I have my personal channel if you like combustion cars. I post a lot of combustion cars on there and it's all fun.

[Matt Farah]

Exceptional. Thank you. Oh, wow. A bad muscle car and a bad electric car. I hadn't seen the headline, but yikes.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, I really probably won't go back to another Dodge thing anytime soon.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, listen, calling balls strikes over there, bro. It's not your fault.

[Kyle Connor]

Yeah, totally.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. They might not be accompanied by the next one.

[Kyle Connor]

That's what.

[Matt Farah]

Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you to our patrons for such good questions. Sign [e-mail] thesmokingtire and we will have a cruise show for you for the second half of this week after we go take this motherfucking Rivian up the trail and see how it do. Thank you everybody and good night.