Vaughn Gittin Jr and Dave Cole on the King of Hammers Stage

Summary

The Smoking Tire Podcast: Vaughn Gittin Jr and Dave Cole on the King of Hammers Stage Release Date: February 11, 2025

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I. Setting the Stage at King of the Hammers

Timestamp: [00:03:00]

Matt Farah and Zach Klapman warmly welcome listeners from the King of the Hammers stage in Johnson Valley. They introduce their esteemed guests: Dave Cole, the founder of King of the Hammers, and Vaughn Gittin Jr., a renowned racing driver from Formula Drift and Ultra Four Racing.

Quote:
Matt Farah [03:10]: "We are up at the King of the Hammers race out in Johnson Valley and we are sitting up on the main stage doing a live podcast to Hammertown with King of the Hammers founder Dave Cole and racing driver Formula Drift Ultra Four Racing driver Vaughn Gittin Jr."

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II. History and Evolution of King of the Hammers

Timestamp: [03:00:00 - 13:25]

Dave Cole delves into the origins of King of the Hammers, describing how the event began in 2007 as a departure from traditional rock crawling. Initially facing challenges in attracting participants and sponsors, Cole employed exclusivity as a strategy, which paradoxically drew more racers and media attention. Starting with 12 participants and a budget of $30,000, the race quickly scaled to accommodate over 700 entries by its 19th year.

Quote:
Dave Cole [10:17]: "In 2006, I competed in rock crawling and I love it still. My thing passion is rock crawling and the sport was growing but it was not, it wasn't taking off and it wasn't, we couldn't get people to come to it."

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III. Technology and Vehicle Evolution in Off-Road Racing

Timestamp: [06:02:00 - 09:40]

The conversation shifts to the rapid technological advancements in off-road vehicles over the past decade. Vaughn Gittin Jr. highlights significant improvements in tires and suspension systems, noting that modern UTVs now feature technology akin to that found in high-end sports cars. These enhancements have not only increased speed and durability but also transformed the dynamics of off-road racing.

Quote:
Vaughn Gittin Jr. [07:14]: "We've got Fox live valve. Literally the same suspension that's in the Raptors that's constantly adjusting to what's going on."

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IV. Vehicle Classes and Innovation

Timestamp: [19:47 - 40:33]

Dave Cole and Vaughn discuss the various classes within King of the Hammers, including Ultra 1, Ultra 3, and Ultra 4. The unlimited class, in particular, is praised for its diversity, allowing front-engine, mid-engine, and UTV-style vehicles to compete on equal footing. This variety fosters innovation, as teams continuously experiment with different vehicle configurations to gain a competitive edge.

Quote:
Vaughn Gittin Jr. [37:50]: "It is not this, I believe this isn't a race that even if you came in with the absolute best talent with the absolute best car and all the things at your disposal, you still don't have this anywhere close to locked up 100%."

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V. Electric Vehicles in Off-Road Racing

Timestamp: [45:20 - 53:25]

The hosts explore the burgeoning role of electric vehicles (EVs) in off-road racing. Vaughn Gittin Jr. shares his excitement about electric technology, emphasizing the instantaneous torque and precise control that EVs offer. Dave Cole adds that while currently driven by hobbyists, electric trucks are set to revolutionize the sport, with potential for greater traction management and performance enhancements.

Quote:
Vaughn Gittin Jr. [48:16]: "I think if you guys would understand is basketball. If we have a perfect race with the equipment that we have and some of the other top teams have. On paper, sure. On paper we, it may, we may be perceived to be able to dominate, but it's out there is the equalizer. So all of these guys that all these 100 guys in my 700 people are showing up because they believe that they have a chance."

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VI. Techniques and Skills in Off-Road Racing vs. Drifting

Timestamp: [21:50 - 60:10]

Vaughn elaborates on how his drifting experience translates to off-road racing. The skills of vehicle placement, weight management, and grip control are pivotal in both disciplines. However, off-road racing demands a more nuanced approach due to the unpredictable terrain. The hosts compare the macro weight transfers in off-road racing to the more subtle shifts in drifting, highlighting the unique challenges each presents.

Quote:
Vaughn Gittin Jr. [22:53]: "When you're in the rocks, you have to maintain momentum or you have to have grip to get through the, get through the situation."

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VII. The Culture and Community of King of the Hammers

Timestamp: [13:26 - 21:23]

The podcast underscores the passionate community surrounding King of the Hammers. Dave Cole reflects on the camaraderie and dedication of participants, who spend nearly the entire year preparing for the event. Despite the intense competition, the spirit of innovation and mutual respect prevails, creating a vibrant and supportive racing environment.

Quote:
Dave Cole [13:18]: "The people that come here are the reason why it's rad."

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VIII. Conclusion and Final Remarks

Timestamp: [57:53 - 62:20]

As the podcast wraps up, the hosts express their admiration for the event's intensity and the dedication of its participants. They highlight the seamless blend of passion, technology, and community that defines King of the Hammers. The episode concludes with plans to experience the race firsthand, underlining the hosts' commitment to immersing themselves in the off-road racing culture.

Quote:
Matt Farah [57:06]: "You could see it… you can see it the true experience as an enthusiast and a. From a performance perspective, you can't argue it."

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Notable Quotes with Speaker Attribution and Timestamps:

1. Matt Farah [03:10]:
   "We are up at the King of the Hammers race out in Johnson Valley and we are sitting up on the main stage doing a live podcast to Hammertown with King of the Hammers founder Dave Cole and racing driver Formula Drift Ultra Four Racing driver Vaughn Gittin Jr."

2. Dave Cole [10:17]:
   "In 2006, I competed in rock crawling and I love it still. My thing passion is rock crawling and the sport was growing but it was not, it wasn't taking off and it wasn't, we couldn't get people to come to it."

3. Vaughn Gittin Jr. [07:14]:
   "We've got Fox live valve. Literally the same suspension that's in the Raptors that's constantly adjusting to what's going on."

4. Vaughn Gittin Jr. [37:50]:
   "It is not this, I believe this isn't a race that even if you came in with the absolute best talent with the absolute best car and all the things at your disposal, you still don't have this anywhere close to locked up 100%."

5. Vaughn Gittin Jr. [48:16]:
   "I think if you guys would understand is basketball. If we have a perfect race with the equipment that we have and some of the other top teams have. On paper, sure. On paper we, it may, we may be perceived to be able to dominate, but it's out there is the equalizer. So all of these guys that all these 100 guys in my 700 people are showing up because they believe that they have a chance."

6. Vaughn Gittin Jr. [22:53]:
   "When you're in the rocks, you have to maintain momentum or you have to have grip to get through the, get through the situation."

7. Dave Cole [13:18]:
   "The people that come here are the reason why it's rad."

8. Matt Farah [57:06]:
   "You could see it… you can see it the true experience as an enthusiast and a. From a performance perspective, you can't argue it."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Smoking Tire offers an in-depth exploration of the King of the Hammers race, blending historical insights with technical discussions on vehicle innovation and racing techniques. The enthusiastic dialogue between Matt Farah, Zach Klapman, Dave Cole, and Vaughn Gittin Jr. provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of what makes King of the Hammers a pinnacle event in off-road racing. Whether you're an automotive enthusiast or a casual listener, this episode delivers valuable perspectives on passion, technology, and community within the racing world.

Transcript

[Matt Farah]

What up everyone? Welcome to the Smoking Tire podcast. You know how it be. We sponsored by off the record this week, just like every week, some of you guys experienced a bit of an outage. Sent me a DM. Two people sent me a DM. Our TSTpod code had expired at the end of 2024, so we've extended that code into 2025. But just a heads up, in a couple of months we're gonna have a new that we're going to be changing over. That way all of the people using off the Record can't just get our code off other weird code sharing sites. It's only for TST people. So if you get a ticket, a moving violation. Don't plead guilty. Get off the record. Download the off the Record app and use code tstpod TSTPOD for Now to get 10% off off all your legal services from off the Record. And oh, by the way, I have gotten a bunch of emails from people. Off the record's been killing it, dude. Dismissals left and right, all over the place. We love off the record. You can also if you want to use a web browser offtherecord.com TST or download the app and use code TSTPOD on that off the record app. 10% off all legal services. Don't plead guilty. Get off the record. All right, folks, we are live on a big stage for this one. We are up at the King of the Hammers race out in Johnson Valley and we are sitting up on the main stage doing a live podcast to Hammertown with King of the Hammers founder Dave Cole and racing driver Formula Drift Ultra Four Racing driver Vaughn Gittin Jr. He's an old pal of mine and it's great to get him back on the show. We are talking about the history of the King of the Hammers race. What makes it so crazy what ultra 4 racing is all about, how off road racing compares to formula drift driving and grip driving and the different skills required. It's a great time with these two guys. We loved having them and really enjoyed King of the Hammers. It's Dave Cole and Vaughn Gittin Jr. On the Smoking Tire podcast. Hello, Hammer Town. This is exciting. I get to Talk to all 80,000 of you at once. My name is Matt Farah. Welcome to the Smoking Tire podcast live. And boy, do I have a fire pit of people looking at me with a cocked head. That's my man and my producer and co host Zach Clapman right there. And we are extremely privileged to be joined on show number 985 with one of my oldest racing driver friends, Vaughn Gittin Jr. Aka Jr. Driving that RTR Bronco here this week. And of course Dave Cole owns the joint, runs the joint. Built this stage in how many weeks?

[Dave Cole]

Two.

[Matt Farah]

Two.

[Dave Cole]

Two weeks.

[Zach Clapman]

Built the stage in two weeks. Built the event over 19 years.

[Dave Cole]

This is the 19th year.

[Zach Clapman]

Yes, sir, 19th year.

[Matt Farah]

This is so great. Thank you guys for having us out here. My pleasure.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

This is cool to be here.

[Matt Farah]

Amazing. And this is actually my first time here, so nobody should expect in depth racing analysis. I'm at the oh my God, what is happening phase of my King of the Hammers career.

[Dave Cole]

It goes about. There are two or three years that'll. That'll still happen. And then about the fourth year you'll still feel uncomfortable about like where gate three is. We move it every year though.

[Matt Farah]

So yeah, everyone seems to have an expert opinion of where we should go. What we should see that hill over there?

[Dave Cole]

Yes.

[Matt Farah]

Universal.

[Dave Cole]

Yes.

[Matt Farah]

And, and, and what's your recommendation, Dave?

[Dave Cole]

I recommend that you go out with some of the teams go pre running tomorrow. If that one out pre running won't be a thing. Tomorrow's racing, isn't it? Then I, I suggest you go watch the big race and maybe get out to the remote pits and see some of that strife happening out there and then. And there's a Jumbotron out there I believe too, so you be able to see the race. So yeah, go do the things you.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Didn'T tell Dave that you also have a Raptor Ranger. So suggested that would be go ripping in the desert.

[Dave Cole]

Oh yeah. Then you did. Yes.

[Matt Farah]

We have Mike Levine over there from Ford. He won't like this, but we have a disposable Raptor.

[Zach Clapman]

It's not ours. We don't have to pay for it.

[Dave Cole]

I thought all of them were disposable.

[Matt Farah]

This one, this is production. This one ain't never seeing a public road again.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

They said, oh, Matt Farah is coming. Yeah, give him that one.

[Zach Clapman]

Well, that's why it has a pre.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Pre production one for him. Yeah, give him that one, please.

[Matt Farah]

How many years have you been here.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

J.R. i've been here since 2016.

[Matt Farah]

Okay, so Nate. Nine, eight.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, whatever. That math was a bunch. And you're absolutely right because I got. I was on the beach in Jamaica with my family on my yearly vacation and Harry from NITTO called me and he's like, hey, we have a spec truck for King of the Hammers race. He's like, do you want to go do that? And I Was like, is that the race with, like, the big rocks in the desert and like, all the things. He's like, yeah. I'm like, oh, it sounds fun. So I no lie. I showed up here in a rental car with brand new tennis shoes on. And then I come in Boone Road, which is the road you came in on.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right. And it's like nothing. Yeah. And then you get through the gates and it's just like Burning man with race cars. Right. And I fell in love, and I've not stopped coming back.

[Matt Farah]

I get it. I get it. And Dave, before we started the show, I asked you what came first, the UTV or the King of the Hammers? And you said, the King of the Hammers. By a month or two months.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah. It was April, May of 2007, I believe the Robbie's ride RZR dropped. And that was the beginning of. I mean, we had Yamahas back then. Rhinos were pre. Pre that time. But the Sport UTV started in 2007.

[Zach Clapman]

Yeah, before that, they were just helpers. Like, they would bring your tires to the pits and your move your stuff.

[Dave Cole]

There wasn't. Even before. I mean, before 2007, there was just the Yamaha Rhino. That was. That was it. There was the Rhino and it had been discontinued. And. And then there was. Then we started Ultra four racing. And then. And Jeeps were. Everything was coming back. And then the Razor started up and then Can AM came out. And then the explosion of technology in that world is bonkers across all of it. Even in the big cars and Broncos and everything else. The adaptation and the technology advancement over the last 10 years is bonkers.

[Zach Clapman]

Well, that's something I wanted to ask you about was like, how has the hardware changed? You've been doing this now nine years. Have you noticed a difference in either durability, capability or speed of the vehicles? And, like, what do you attribute that to?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's. It's unbelievably changed just in the short time that I've been in it. You know, the biggest. The biggest progression, tires, suspension, you know, suspension meaning everything on all four corners. Right. Whether it's billet, trailing arms, portals. We've got Fox live valve. Literally the same suspension that's in the Raptors that's constantly adjusting to what's going on.

[Matt Farah]

That's JR's truck going by right now. If you can hear that in our microphones, it's literally his vehicle that just drove by.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, it is.

[Matt Farah]

Those shocks are sick. We have them in our little blue.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Ranger Raptor and they're constantly adapting and we've got buttons on the wheel that we can like if I see a G out coming up and I can't slow down, I can lock my compression out. If I get a big, a big rebound and I'm going to buck the back, I can lock it out. Like it's, it's unbelievable. But the coolest thing about what I love about this sport and, and something that kind of transcends the drifting is, you know, in the unlimited class now there's classes with rules. But in the unlimited class there's so many different approaches. So people show up here with independent front suspension, fully independent cars, single seat cars, co drivers, lightweight, heavy, that it's just who builds their theory of the better mouse trap and show up and throw down with it when you drift.

[Matt Farah]

And you're drifting A front engine car, you drift Mustangs. And is do you have a preference for front or mid engine offroad? An off road?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Well, funny you say that because I've only driven front engine cars and now I have a mid engine truck for the, for the first time this year. And there's trade offs with everything, right? There's compromises with everything. The front engine I believe crawls a little better. But the mid engine truck, where the balance is in the desert and you just have to be a little bit more committed in the rock. So like it's like any race car, right? There's, there's trade offs and so when people are in there dreaming their mousetrap to bring the king of the hammers, there's all these different theories of what's going to win. And every year, well, you know, the course changes.

[Matt Farah]

Certainly changes the balance of your math, doesn't it?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Well, we know there's rocks, we know there's desert, right. So it's pretty consistent in that realm. But it is heavy, heavy, heavy rocks. And you have to be able to do both. But the progression that I've witnessed in the last, you know, eight, nine years, it's crazy. I mean Laura and my teammate has been through four different cars in the past nine years because of the progression, the how quickly other people are building things that just push past where, where we were at. And so it's, you know, it's performance. Right. But it's also not breaking.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

What goes on in this race, I can't even tell you, Matt. It is literally when you, when you get done this race, it's like you got done eight hours for this fight and how many each lap this year?

[Dave Cole]

80 miles for the longest lap, 65 miles for the first desert lap.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Okay, before we talk about the progression, Dave really needs to explain how this race started because it is, the story of this race is not like it, you know, it's not like he's like, I want to be a racing promoter and start. Please, please explain the story. It's, it's unbelievable when you hear this to where we are right now.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah. In 2006, I competed in rock crawling and I love it still. My thing passion is rock crawling and the sport was growing but it was not, it wasn't taking off and it wasn't. We, we couldn't get people to come to it. We couldn't get sponsors to really go after it or support it. And in 2007 I decided to start, try something different. And I knew what the permit rules were here. So I had 12 guys, I had all my friends and three more people. So I had nine people and three more. 12 people showed up and we went racing. And I went on pirate 4x4 back then, which was not sure if you know what pirate was, but pirate was pre Facebook. It's where our culture kind of, kind of joined and communicated from around the world. And we could talk to people from Pakistan on, online, on pirate about how we were hand forming metal stuff. It was crazy. And is that at all related to.

[Zach Clapman]

Pirate Bay where people would like download movies and things like that? Was this like neighboring websites? Okay, never mind.

[Dave Cole]

Nope. Pirate 4x4 was purely just a free for all of awesomeness of just all the ideas percolating and what, what you, where you were going, what you were doing. It became the, it became the aggregator, it became the thing that brought everybody together different place. And so yeah, in 2007 there's 12 guys and I had a partner then. His name's Jeff Noll and he's. I mean, I'm still not good at money. And Jeff was like, we can't, we can't be in the, in the red to start. So we got to be in the black. So we did a budget and the first race was going to cost $30,000 2008. So we had racers, we convinced pro racers to send in resumes and told them that they couldn't enter the race. They had to be accepted into the race. Which is rather exclusivity. Exclusivity. Well, the other thing part was no one wanted to come. So the only way you can make people do something is you tell them they can't. Turns out is the best way to tell people, get people to do something. So we told them all they couldn't race and we told all the media they couldn't come. And we told the fans they couldn't come. And then all the media came and all the racers came and all the fans came.

[Matt Farah]

It was a good move.

[Dave Cole]

Well, that year we needed 30,000 bucks. So we got to a point of $600 per racer and hope we could get 50. And once I had 50, people said they wanted to come. We called them all in three hours and told them they had the last spot if they paid today. So we had 30,000 bucks, we had a race and we did it. And the next year we did it again and went to 100 racers. And last year was 930 some odd. I think there's, there's. We're short some classes, we're not doing short courses, that kind of stuff. But we're still 700 some odd entries this year.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's.

[Dave Cole]

It's been a crazy ride. And the fans, I, I'm. You meet people, you see the same people that have been here since 2008, 2009. This is the place that I see them. This is the place. It's just a. It's a happening now. And, and it. The people that come here are the reason why it's rad.

[Matt Farah]

Well, it seems like it's like every other part. Seems like the people here absolutely spend the entire 51 weeks of the rest of the year preparing for this one.

[Dave Cole]

No, they spend the 51 weeks living the same way. And they just come. Happen to come here live. Live here for a week, which is cool, but yet. Yeah, the people that are here are the ones that do. You know, there's. There's people that watch, there's people that do. There's a bunch of doers out there.

[Zach Clapman]

It's evidently as soon as you drive around the parking lot, which we did for a couple of hours, I mean, you see the absolute spectrum of, I'll say color, but it's really like the vehicle construction. And you'll see two jeeps parked next to each other a thousand percent different. And you'll see the most interesting creations, and it's all based on function. And then also we were saying before the show, like, they're working on it in their garage. They're building it themselves anyway. They're not taking, they're not buying this off the shelf or even at like a specialty shop. And they go, well, if I'm wrenching on it, I might as well make it look the way I want to. Look and express a part of my personality. So you see jokes and you see cool paint stuff and you see metal formed. I mean it said to you like we saw a shortened defender 90. Who shortens a defender 90, right. You know, it's like shrinking a Mini Cooper. But people here are doing it because they want, because it serves a purpose and helps them crawl the rocks better. I mean there's just so many crazy, awesome, super functional badass contraptions.

[Matt Farah]

I'm actually even more impressed by the toy hall, the improvised toy Halt. Yeah, that's. That is some.

[Dave Cole]

It's necessity, man. Necessity is necessities. The other mother invention or something like that. Yes. I have to, I have to find a way to get three race cars and a camper trailer with my gas powered, you know, three, three three speed pickup truck from Maryland to the Hammers.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's amazing at its best. And like we're on the lake bed the other day doing a photo shoot. We've got half a million dollar race trucks everywhere, right? Everyone's gawking on them. I saw this dude pull up and it looked like a tea bucket, but it was like a wide tea bucket and he hundred percent hand built this and it looked like a 1930s something or another. And it was so rad. He had leaf springs, one on top, one on bottom with push rod suspension on it. I'm just like, what? You know, like it's so cool. It's so cool to see people's push.

[Matt Farah]

Rod and leaf springs.

[Zach Clapman]

He probably had them around, you know.

[Matt Farah]

I wonder how that rides.

[Dave Cole]

How do you think that rides?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I mean how flat is the road if you're outside?

[Dave Cole]

It's got livelih shocks, it's a T bucket but it's got live bell shocks on it. I mean, come on. It rides great.

[Matt Farah]

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[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's cool though that that's one of my favorite things here you there and and to your point there is people that literally spend 51 weeks building their thing to bring the hammers.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah, that's true.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I mean and, and, and it's just a passion. It has created an unbelievable. Dave and his team have created an unbelievable lifestyle. For a couple weeks here in the.

[Matt Farah]

Desert we just one wheel off roading for a second.

[Dave Cole]

What are these guys doing man? Well at some point it's harder and harder to find more insanity. Like when you've dug to the bottom the dredges of finding all the craziness in the world. Turns out there's people that do it one, one wheel too. Yeah. Amazing. And they're, they're radish humans and they're out there just fully sending it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I saw a guy riding a one wheel igloo.

[Dave Cole]

Cooler. Oh yes, that's Cooler Joe.

[Matt Farah]

Shout out to him.

[Dave Cole]

Cooler Joe.

[Matt Farah]

Cooler Joe.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

But his friends for 40 years, you know Cooler Joe. I don't.

[Zach Clapman]

His friends are in full body armor and they're going over some of these obstacles and they're. They're literally one wheeling past cars that have 40 inch tires and these guys are standing on a 12, 14 inch tire. I mean that's incredible.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I've never seen it, but it was the first time they've been here. But they're doing the thing.

[Matt Farah]

I mean what else?

[Dave Cole]

Adding to the party.

[Zach Clapman]

If they live, they'll be back next year and they'll be the new class. How many classes are there?

[Dave Cole]

Well, they've already, they're already changing their name from amped electric. The Ultra 1. So they're coming back.

[Matt Farah]

Ultra 1, Ultra 1.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

My gosh. Ultra 1, Ultra 3 and Ultra 4. Perfect.

[Matt Farah]

We just learned about Ultra 3 today.

[Dave Cole]

Oh, you missed it. Last night was the show.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

You've got Ultra zero. It's all the Ultra. Are.

[Matt Farah]

Are people okay? Is that, is that three wheeler oval racing is super speedway?

[Dave Cole]

Yes sir. That's fantastic. The 11 wheels did that too. Faster. Sucked. Pretty, pretty fast. Really fast. 200. They're 200cc three wheelers. It's.

[Matt Farah]

Oh.

[Zach Clapman]

So it's like flat track racing but you can't tip over. So you do.

[Matt Farah]

It's not flat, it's banked. It's banked oval.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's like a velo three wheeler Bella drove.

[Zach Clapman]

I love the invent roller derby. People find the funnest newest ways to be dangerous. They're just like, ooh, this is like you said, this is too safe. We've done this. How else can we do this same thing?

[Dave Cole]

I mean way back when we had the Chair of Death on the back of Krusty's pickup truck, which was really just a spare tire mounted on a hub put in the back of his pickup truck. So you sit on this 37 inch tire. But then when you'd spin you around on top of the pickup truck and you're. I mean on 37s on the trucks, you're five feet off the ground and no one would ride it when it was called the Chair of Death. But once we called it the Chair of Fun, everybody wrote it. So it really is just all about branding.

[Matt Farah]

Branding is really a master of getting people to do things. Things that are against their best interest. That is.

[Zach Clapman]

Yeah, we are the Master of that. You can't come unless you sign up today. Oh no. This is the chair of fun. Are you sure you want to do it?

[Matt Farah]

The chair of personal responsibility. Is that.

[Dave Cole]

Sure.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I can't wait to see how.

[Matt Farah]

Okay. So you know, we met in your drifting career, your, your other career and here, other than, you know, the. An overpowered vehicle and a loose surface and a looser than normal rear end, this is a totally different type of driving. Are you what of your drift skills translate over here?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

All of them.

[Matt Farah]

All of them, yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

So, you know, vehicle placement obviously is number one. The ability to control a vehicle at very high speed on a loose surface, obviously. And then the ability to manage the weight of the vehicle in all situations. Right. So I have a unique approach to driving. I use a steering wheel and four tires. Right. That's my approach. And anything I get in, I'm like, okay, what's this, dude? Okay. You know, I just, I feel it and go. But when I started getting into this sport, the biggest thing is understanding grip and traction because when you're in the rocks, you have to maintain momentum or you have to have grip to get through the, get through the situation. And so, so for me, being able to, you know, coming from having my tires spinning 30 faster than my car, when I'm in the rocks, I can feel every little bit of grip. And that's been a really good benefit for me after I learned how to read the rocks.

[Matt Farah]

Right.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Which is a whole other art on its own. In fact, I've been doing this for nine years. I probably just learned two, three years ago how to read the rocks. And it's always been my co driver, he tells me the line, I can drive it up it because that's when I'll come in and have my skill set. And so it really is a two person team. I used to race motocross before drifting. And so being in the dirt, I'm no stranger that I'm no stranger to being in the air. I'm no stranger to, you know, managing weight and breaking in loose surfaces. So it all has just really come together for me. Right. It's like kind of like life. Like every moment gets you ready for the next.

[Matt Farah]

And so I saw the Supercross last week. That is one of the most athletic things I've ever seen. Absolutely unbelievable. Oh yeah.

[Zach Clapman]

It used to be, it was the most exhausting motorsport or I think sport you could do. It was like that. Then ice hockey.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Zach Clapman]

And they measured their heart rate.

[Matt Farah]

We did the math. It was like 340 jumps every race. It was like, insane.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

You counted that?

[Matt Farah]

We counted the number of jumps per.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Lap and then lap. Okay.

[Matt Farah]

Multiplied. Fair.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I thought you're like, how many jumps do you. I forgot.

[Matt Farah]

How many jumps do you have per race here? What do you think it is?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Well, it depends how many times I get airborne in the desert. A couple hundred, maybe.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

There's.

[Dave Cole]

You're. You're all four wheels off the ground, probably a lot.

[Matt Farah]

A lot, a lot.

[Zach Clapman]

Well, today we're watching. What's the spot over here called?

[Matt Farah]

Qualifying.

[Zach Clapman]

A qualifier, I guess.

[Dave Cole]

Y.

[Zach Clapman]

We're watching people get air on the way downhill in rocks, which is something like, I always thought jumping's fun. We got some air. Today we went for a ride with Mitch Guthrie in the crazy Raptor T plus. And, like, going through the air upward, I'm real comfortable. But when I saw this person catch air on a downhill, that seemed just terrifying.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It is terrifying. Look, 60, 70% of this race is terrifying straight up. And that's why you keep coming back. Like, there is. It is, it is. It's such the representation. This race, to me, is such a representation of growth in life and how you grow as a human. Right. So this is the ultimate battle. And we can say one day battle, because someone will argue this, but this is the ultimate battle of man, team, machine, period.

[Matt Farah]

It.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It literally takes everything that you have as a human, plus all the equipment, plus the team, to just think about finishing this race. Every time I've raced this race, I ask myself, probably about end of lap two. Do I really want to be doing this? You're starting to hurt. You're starting to get tired. You're starting to lose focus. It is a gnarly game, and it is so addictive. And you. You can't. This is not one of those sports that you do for anything other than the passion of it for the. For the self, the gratitude that you personally get. This is not something that people can say, pay you money to go do. I mean, maybe some people will do those kind of things, but it's not about that.

[Matt Farah]

This is the same thing about Pikes Peak hill climb. People. People speak about the Pikes Peak hill climb exactly the same way.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I. I could see that. I mean, you're flirting with death.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. You know, I get mounted. It's not even you versus the other.

[Zach Clapman]

Competitors, and you get one run, and you. And a lot of people like here. A lot of the cars you see at Pikes Peak were built in a garage by people. Just.

[Dave Cole]

I drove a rock crawler at Pike Peak.

[Matt Farah]

You do what?

[Dave Cole]

We race rock crawlers at Pikes Peak.

[Zach Clapman]

Really?

[Matt Farah]

On the road or just up the side of the mountain?

[Dave Cole]

No, up the road. I ran a 1305 when it still had dirt in a row.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, it's pretty fast.

[Dave Cole]

We had 12 ultra 4 racers racing in the prototype class. We raced against the Pana, The La Carrera Panamera. The Panamera Carreras in Mexico. Those guys like a guy had 1200 horsepower Hudson Hornet.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, I know that car. That's a very famous car.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah, the Hudson Hornet. Yeah, we raced with those guys. It was, it was a blast.

[Matt Farah]

The. We went to Pikes Peak two years ago and some of the guys who were racing versions of UTVs, you know, street prepped UTVs and things were like insane super fast. Who was the guy who. Who rolled, landed on his wheels and had it first gear and going within.

[Zach Clapman]

I know the video.

[Matt Farah]

I remember saying it was the greatest Pikes Peak crash in history. Three rolls on his wheels and was in first.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

What kind of vehicle?

[Zach Clapman]

It's like a. Like a built utv. Side by side.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Sick.

[Dave Cole]

Because Levi, I'm pretty sure he's talking about Levi Shirley.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

We went down the mountain and came back up. Right.

[Matt Farah]

Unbelievable.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, that was Levi. He's here racing this weekend.

[Dave Cole]

Greatest onboard craft. Railed it today in qualifying.

[Matt Farah]

He what?

[Dave Cole]

He sent it today in qualifying.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Zach Clapman]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Levi's an ot. He's been around for a really long time and.

[Dave Cole]

Yep.

[Matt Farah]

What is your. What is your recce process look like when you know it's a new course every year? Yeah. So what is the. What is the recky?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

So most years we'll get a course, a complete course of all three laps and then we'll come out the weekend before and just go pre run, make notes, get it comfy. This year, however, this guy decided not to tell us what lap three was. So we came out, did our process. So we go out, we'll do a lap or two at the desert and just, you know, make notes, you know, because it's always changing. So we'll make notes in the desert. The big things you're looking for in the desert is the big G outs, right. The, the stock class bronco that we race that can handle, you know, not as much as the 4400 truck. So we're making notes for both races. And then we get into the rock using for recce.

[Matt Farah]

What are you driving this in?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

This would be. This year we were in Yamaha YXE1000s and then we also, we have Rmax and then we have a pre runner for the rocks and then Bronco or Bronco Raptor, depending upon what part of the desert. So we are grateful to have multiple vehicles to choose from. So whatever tool needs to do the job. And then it'll be myself and my co driver, Lord and his co driver. And then we'll just go together, stop, talk about things, get out, you know, we get to the rocks, we get out the rocks, walk some stuff if we need to and just pick out different lines. Because not only are you racing, right, you're by yourself, right? Two cars leaving a line, what, 30 seconds apart.

[Dave Cole]

30 seconds apart? Yep.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, 30 seconds apart. So but you're also planning for when you get to a rock trail and there's 30 cars having a yard sale. So now you need to know the different lines in the rocks so that you can improvise on the fly. Ideally not getting out of the car and sending your co driver to walk to find it. So this is the kind of work that we're doing before is, is really just familiarizing. You know, this place changes every year. Not only does the course, but it just changes, right? The desert is gnarly. It, you know, the way that things change and, and the rocks change too, you know, from all the Wheelers and 51 other weeks a year. So, yeah, that process a lot, it.

[Zach Clapman]

Washes more dirt away or they windy, it can blow more in, they can get deeper, more shallow. I mean that's totally, that's what's fascinating about off road racing. And this to me is, you know, a road course is basically the same all the time. They repave it. All right, it's got new tarmac, but the lines are going to be the same. They're not going to redesign coda, but here you one, you do redesign the race course and it can go over this way instead of that way or different direction. But also the rocks can change their size and their depth and everything in the amount of rubber on. You guys have to adapt to all that stuff.

[Dave Cole]

They'll be driving 65 of the same or more of the same miles, all three laps. And all three laps will be different. They won't be the same. The rock that hits he planned for and, and prepped for and said, okay, I got a rock on the right coming over this rise. It will be on the left a quarter mile later. By the time hit it, they'll, they'll crush it. It'll be through it, it'll be in the left line. Now let's say the right line. You won't know. You'll come over the left line because that's the clean one. And there's going to be that big rock that's sitting there.

[Zach Clapman]

There's a lot of redecorating. When I was here in 2012, I watched a rock about the size of a basketball just fly past some spectators and media people and I went, oh, someone might have planned to put their tire on that. And this is also a place where you'll see a truck drive over the wheel of another truck because that truck's in the way. Is that against the rules or is that just okay?

[Dave Cole]

It's encouraged.

[Zach Clapman]

It's, it's, it's amazing, you know, and, and both trucks are fine, by the way. Road racing, obviously the cars would be just in heaps.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I have a funny story about running over actually a couple years ago I, there was a guy in the way and I had to run his truck over, which not what part of his truck. It was probably like tires. I probably touched his door a bit, but it was like I had to go around him. He was jammed up and I had to go. And that's the deal. It happens. So I now am ahead of this guy and we're in another trail and I get jammed up and I'm sitting here and I hear him coming and I'm just like, oh my gosh. So like literally you just take it, he just like fiberglass just falling off and you're just like, yeah, you know.

[Matt Farah]

Like I had that coming.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, had it coming.

[Matt Farah]

Is there a point to drag racing people in the open desert or you know you're going to, there's going to be a hold up.

[Dave Cole]

Same point you do it any place else you do it. It's just phones.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Strategically, you know. Here, here's my perspective of this race, folks.

[Matt Farah]

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[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

They him they put the desert lap first. That takes out probably 30% of the competitors, 25% of competitors because everyone's out there red misted like it's like mad back. No.

[Matt Farah]

This is turn one of a 12 hour endurance race.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

Basically we're a third of the field is just can't help themselves.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right. And they overdrive their truck and and so it's a, it's a mental game of being smart because it is a three lap race. This is a true endurance race. But you have to be on pace. That's the hardest thing about this sport. How hard do you go and make it to the finish? You know and if humble brag I have an amazing finish Rate. But I've not been on pace to win except for last year, was my first time ever. Now I know what it takes. But it's taken me nine years of breaking things, of making mistakes. You know what I mean? Like, this is not, this is not that race that just a good driver shows up and wins. There's so much to learn.

[Matt Farah]

But is it the kind of thing that you know, you, you're, you're very experienced. You were, you're with a factory back team. There's other factory backed teams here. What kind of a chance does a, a privateer on a real tight budget have to succeed in this race?

[Dave Cole]

In the 4400 class there's always one or two. And then if it's not even, even if it's not even a, a privateer, like, well, Paul H. Is a privateer. He's lit, legit. I mean he is making spaceships, but he's a privateer. But then you also have guys like Cole Clark that are, they're coming up with new, literally new inventions, right? Like it's not. Vaughn and Lauren have started from big cars, heavy. The traditional 4400 car was a big heavy car. But it's getting lighter and more, more svelte, more, more performance based, better suspension, better everything, right? There's a whole other group of people, Kyle Chaney, Cole Clark, the UTV guys that are taking the UTV and they're stretching it, they're putting more power, a little bit bigger wheelbase, a little bigger, bigger tires. And someplace in that middle is that there's some play that still hasn't been found. I mean they're still making it up. That's the best part about it. Like we're still making every year the car that wins. This was faster than the year before. And it's kind of like I was an indie fan back in the day, right? So it was like they were pushing speed and everybody was excited about having this advanced technology and speed. And you could see the speed and to see these guys doing the same thing with technology and seeing how it used to be fairly luck of the balance. So you'd see somebody go out and just Crush qualifying by 30 seconds, beat everybody because they had their one right bounce or whatever. But when there's the 30 best drivers, 40 best drivers in the world are going at it and they're all within 10 seconds, 15 seconds on a course that's three minutes long. Then you know that they're at the edge of what's capable and they're. And they're consistently laying it down and that, and that edge of performance is pretty hardcore.

[Matt Farah]

Well, and in this type of off road racing you don't see a need to impose restrictions for quote tighter racing the way that F1 or Indy or NASCAR.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

He has classes that have that.

[Matt Farah]

They do. But, but it's, but it's not to create a, you know, a tight pack and the unlimited will always be pushing, right?

[Dave Cole]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that, I mean I, we, we have very limited performance rules, we have tire ball rules, that kind of stuff that just try to keep that more of a framework to work within. But I don't think we even come close to understanding, I mean what, what's fast yet. I mean we're close, but it's changing so fast. It's amazing.

[Zach Clapman]

Are there class outside of unlimited where it's all privateer teams, it's all just, you know, people building stuff at home. Or is it always. Is it is every class a mixed bag? But you know, someone always has a shot.

[Dave Cole]

Every, every class is a mixed bag and everybody always has a shot. Every year we have, we. I mean, yes, absolutely. This has not been a situation where there's very talented, very talented drivers and there's drivers that have backing and are professionals and do the things. And to Vaughn's point earlier, it is not this, I believe this isn't a race that even if you came in with the absolute best talent with the absolute best car and all the things at your disposal, you still don't have this anywhere close to locked up 100%.

[Zach Clapman]

That's great.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I think the way for you guys would understand is basketball. If we have a perfect race with the equipment that we have and some of the other top teams have. On paper, sure. On paper we, it may, we may be perceived to be able to dominate, but it's out there is the equalizer. So all of these guys that all these 100 guys in my 700 people are showing up because they believe that they have a chance because you know what, the guys that on paper are going to win this can go out and end up on their lid because they didn't make a proper note or they get jammed up in the rocks or whatever it is. So the equalizer is the course. And this is, you know, this is one of those few places, you know this sport. And I also believe that drifting as well is one of those few places where the guy can come out of his garage with his passion built vehicle and end up on the podium. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And so that's what like that's what I Absolutely love about it. Like you know, F1, you probably know the five people that have a chance.

[Matt Farah]

Right.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

You know, NASCAR road racing, you know.

[Matt Farah]

Well, but there can be equalizers. Like the wet, for instance.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

You know, the Wet in F1 or Pikes Peak or in any type of road course racing could. Is the opportunity for the guy without as fast of a car to really, you know, that's the Senna story, right?

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Zach Clapman]

But it seems like there's more opportunity here, especially to go back to unlimited class. The fact you have front engine, mid engine and utvs that are all competing against each other. Right.

[Dave Cole]

Solid axle, independent. Independent rear portals, no portals. Yep.

[Zach Clapman]

That's like. That is such a wide variety of solutions or mousetraps versus if it was F1 teams. Everyone's car is pretty much looking the same. Obviously there are some differences because some are very fast or NASCAR etc. Like it's a more of a known formula and here there's just so much, so much stuff, different stuff getting thrown at you that you have to like build for and everyone's just trying to figure out how to make it through. It's rad.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah. And that, that is one of the things that just makes this so special. And, and the unlimited class, I hope it never changes because the innovation that comes out of this series, let alone this race, ends up in production products. I mean, you can see some of the UTVs that are coming out, the things that have been learned, you know, and their capabilities in the rocks. I mean, you know, they're coming with rock modes and trail modes and you know, like all of this stuff translates back. And that's a big reason why Ford is here. It's a big reason why. You see the UTV manufacturers here, they're all learning. Yeah, they're. They're creating credibility and marketing, but there's a lot of tech transfer that comes from it. I mean this race has rocks, sand, hard pack, soft pack, boulders, has everything. You know what I mean? So for tire companies, it's just. It's the ultimate proving ground. Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

It's such a crazy, crazy thing to see. People have been telling me for years to come out here and like, yeah, they weren't overselling it.

[Dave Cole]

Can you see your lights over there yet? You have a view?

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, no, I do. It's. There's man's marching up and down the hill. Little, little red ants marching.

[Dave Cole]

Those answer a lot louder and bigger when you get closer.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

When you get there, you're going to see the size of the answer soon.

[Matt Farah]

As we are done with our work obligations. We're hopping in a borrowed blue Raptor.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

And you're going send it, bud.

[Dave Cole]

I bet you can drive it up it.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Dude, that was today.

[Dave Cole]

You told me, you told me that car's never got to see Rose again.

[Zach Clapman]

It's true.

[Dave Cole]

I. I've got a camera for a week or something.

[Matt Farah]

I get a thumbs up.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I think we are good to go.

[Dave Cole]

Where's Mike? Where's Mike Levine at?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I tell you what, Lord, he will probably get that thing.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, listen, a Ford, you're good with that, right? Anybody with a Ford Dearborn ID badge, have at it. Let's go.

[Zach Clapman]

It's R D. This is the trickle down technology you were talking about. We're going to learn things. We'll give that information to the engineers. We'll tell them why the car caught fire after we rolled it down the hill. And they can use that with.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I'm not being a part of that.

[Zach Clapman]

You just, you were just suggesting it.

[Matt Farah]

Can I ask you about your new project with Ford? By the way, I'm super excited to see your new Mustang. I drove your original RTR Mustang.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

2017. 18.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

18. Yeah. Our original was actually 2011.

[Matt Farah]

Oh yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

But you drove. The first one you drove was our. Was our first S550 in 15. Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Supercharged one. That was fast.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

So, you know, this has like been the dream of mine since I started RTR was to have a true collab with Ford. You know, we still have our spec vehicles that we sell and build pre title and they're available at Ford dealers all over the country. But this is actually a car like right now. We get vehicles from the plant, they go to our upfit facility, we build them and then they go to dealers. This Mustang RTR is coming directly from Flat Rock. It is something that I've been working on for almost two years with the Mustang team. And we have developed the most technologically advanced, enthusiast, performance focused turbocharged Mustang ever.

[Matt Farah]

I'm super stoked.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

So rad.

[Matt Farah]

I'm super excited to drive it. Congratulations. It's gonna be great. Your handling kits are really good. Your body are really good. You can't tell us what you did to the engine, right?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

No. The only thing that I can talk about in this moment is that the things you see on the outside. So it's obviously got, you know, our grille with our integrated lighting, new wheels. We. We did make the offset a bit aggressive and we did announce that we stole some parts from the Dark Horse for on the chassis side and the other really one cool thing I can talk about is it has any lag.

[Matt Farah]

Oh, cool.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's not. It may not be as vocal as that, but the, the benefit of the anti lag with respect to response is there.

[Matt Farah]

Handbrake.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah. Has the, has the drift break that myself and Chelsea helped develop for the new S550.

[Matt Farah]

So Zach and I recently. The local, the people here at King of the Hammers, they're not going to like this bit because we drove the electric Mustang Mach E Rally which is.

[Dave Cole]

Why weren't they like that?

[Matt Farah]

I don't know. It doesn't seem like an EV crowd.

[Dave Cole]

But maybe they're performance based. But the problem with the EV is at some point you got to get home and you can't do it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, I know from here that'd be a problem.

[Zach Clapman]

Torque will be awesome.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Well, actually Optima has hydrogen chargers for everybody here.

[Matt Farah]

Yes.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

And there's a ton of off road electric vehicles here.

[Dave Cole]

That good. I've got one. I think I, I do. I love electric control. I think from a performance perspective electric controls let you do things that, that, I mean that is the next generation. Ten years from now when you are, you are controlling wheel speed at a truly infinite level and you're doing it because electric controllers, that's when traction control will be mindblowing.

[Matt Farah]

Well, it's. We're there now with road cars. With cars, you know, like The Tycon Turbo GT, the Lucids, the Ionic 5N and I was going to say the Maki Rally cuz before we drove it, Junior hit me up. He's like, you're going to like that. And we got, when we got it on dirt, the weight transfer ability of that car with the active, you know, torque vectoring and the low center of gravity that had the best weight transfer on loose of any, any production car I've ever driven.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

It's so good. I, I did the driving at the media day with one of the, with one of the WRC drivers that, that Ford worked with and it was my first time driving the car and I showed up at Dirtfish and I was so impressed. I had so much fun with it. Yeah, you're right. The battery being 4 inches off the ground, it just rotates like this.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

You know, it's like ultimate center axis rotation.

[Matt Farah]

You could add angle on throttle. It was a great.

[Zach Clapman]

But it's also however you, however they programmed the way the motors work, not the diffs like the motors respond well because we've driven other electric Cars where when you turn off traction and you're in loose area, you know, loose surface, they're just, they're sending a little too much to the inside left tire with a little too much to the back or whatever it is. And it just feels like two steps behind you. This felt like a really good na all wheel drive rally car that was doing exactly what you expected with all of that clever stuff.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Ford's got badass.

[Matt Farah]

It was really fun. But I was wondering why. I think the next one needs the handbrake.

[Dave Cole]

It's electric.

[Matt Farah]

Anyway, the Mach E rally with the handbrake would be so sick.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I agree.

[Matt Farah]

And I got to drive. Porsche's electric race car concept and they in the ice and they have invented something. They have invented a left foot braking oversteer pedal. So you know how you can initiate oversteer with the handbrake on under braking.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Sure.

[Matt Farah]

This allows you to do it on power. So when you're adding throttle, if you start to push, if you hit the left foot brake, it cuts the front motor and overdrives the rear to add angle.

[Zach Clapman]

It's like a subtle clutch kick.

[Dave Cole]

It's a clutch.

[Matt Farah]

It's an electric clutch.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

So to get you out of understeer, just.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. And you just ride the left pedal and it just adds angle. I was like, so, yeah, the Mach E rally. And then you've got the perfect off road. Electric. Yeah. So great.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Dave Cole]

That car.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

That car rips. I had so much fun on that thing. And, and we took seasoned. You know, I'm a fan of electric vehicles. I mean, you know, we've built some really cool electric vehicles. A Mach E 1400 and the switchgear F150 Lightning. And I'm a big fan of the technology. And my friends favorite thing ever is putting people in the car that are like electric.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

And I take them like oh my gosh. And so fast.

[Matt Farah]

I mean, they're all fast. Right. Every electric car is a dragster, but a lot of them lack soul. So you got to make up for soul. They, they come up with gimmicks. Right. So the Ionic 5N has a synthetic gearbox that sounds really stupid but actually works.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Does it? How does it feel like a gas car? You can feel it.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Farah]

It drives just like a gas.

[Zach Clapman]

It redlines like a gas car. I mean everything. Yeah.

[Dave Cole]

It's awesome.

[Zach Clapman]

It's.

[Matt Farah]

Well, it's actually great.

[Dave Cole]

It's really fun.

[Matt Farah]

And then, and the, and the Mach E has this, this loose surface behavior that's so good. And Other electric cars have other sort of gimmicky behaviors and like they're kind of figuring out how to inject fun into this stuff, which I, which is what it needs.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I mean, I think if I'm not going, I'm not going to go hard on political but I think that if this, if electric wasn't so politicized and it wasn't feeling like it was being shoved down everybody's, you know, in there, like forcing people, I think it would be a lot different perspective right now because when you look at the, the true experience as an enthusiast and a. From a performance perspective, you can't argue it. So I'm excited to see where that space continues. Yeah, there's no doubt in a few years one of these unlimited trucks going to be hybrid and ultimately will be electric. You know Dave, they've innovated and he has an electric buggy here that you know, he, he develops.

[Zach Clapman]

How many motors does it.

[Dave Cole]

Just one. Okay. We just wanted to prove that we could, we could make a. Basically convert a gas to converted the spec car that he originally started racing in a spec class car. We turned from a, from a Hemi into a EV car data Spicer motor and scratched the itch and it got us going to the point to know that the controls are the, the tangible tactile ability you have to control the car. Like. Oh, you're talking about like the, the way you could over like the way they can use engineering to provide that, that clutch kick you're talking about. Right. That's the kind of stuff that you just espec. The farther you get off road, the more traction is everything. And they're going to be able to manage that in a way that we can't do right now.

[Zach Clapman]

Well, we, you know we've offered in like the Rivian and a couple other electric SUVs and if they have too motors, I mean it, maybe it's, it's very subjective order, but you can just feel the tires like almost talking to the rock, talking to the computer, giving just you know, a half a percent more torque. Whereas a gas car would have to like over rev it a little bit, give a little bit too much or not enough because I, I came out here on the Chevy ZR2 launch, which you know, great truck, etc. Etc. But just having to rev it up a little bit, having to wait for the turbo to spool and you know, any motors solve that. Superchargers kind of solve that lag. But with electric there's zero. So there's so much control.

[Matt Farah]

You have the electric G wagon which is four motors. You know you can do the axis spins which is fun and is definitely something you should do. But it had all seasons on it. And I took it up our, our standard off road trail which is in Rouer Flats north of la.

[Dave Cole]

It's like Gorman area, huh? Gorman area.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah, yeah. It's new there.

[Dave Cole]

Yep.

[Matt Farah]

And it's not, it's not king of the hammers but for, for, for literally stock vehicles. It's about what anybody would do. And that what was so that we went up the whole trail. It's pretty steep. 10% throttle the whole way. Never moved my foot. And you know the, the crunch of gravel under tires. You didn't hear it. There was no difference between wheel speed and forward motion. It was just this very precise, precise. Up.

[Zach Clapman]

Yep.

[Matt Farah]

Just up. It was so great.

[Dave Cole]

Gave you as much power as you could handle. Not one thing more than exactly what you needed.

[Matt Farah]

Yes.

[Dave Cole]

Just to getting to the point of being able to control wheel speed left to right. I mean we're at best we have lockers that are selectable lockers that you're controlling the torque to individual wheels but you're still setting power to the front, sending power to the back. And in our sport the biggest problem we have is the contention between the front and the back of the car when they're at speed in the desert. Correct me if I'm wrong but the biggest difference between a four wheel drive trophy truck and an ultra four car is that trophy truck is going to have a over spinning front end.

[Matt Farah]

So.

[Dave Cole]

When the ground speed differentiates from the wheel speed and the car starts to porpoise like that, it rolls like a two wheel drive truck. Right. Like a rally car would go with when the, when they go with the electric. When you get to electric vehicles and able to control that wheel speed, we won't have that contention. The car will sit flat, it'll go and it'll go in hand with the computer, with the suspension and the cars will just become infinitely better. Infinitely. It's going to be.

[Zach Clapman]

Is anyone campaigning an electric truck in any class here or they just hobbyists.

[Dave Cole]

Right now it's all hobbyists building trucks from home. The Kyle Segal and the husband, the Silvas come up north, they built a truck and raced it. So there's been two or three trucks built, built at home and brought here.

[Zach Clapman]

And I guess I phrase it wrong and they've entered in races. They're not just driving around for fun, they raced.

[Dave Cole]

Yep. We have an EP class. We've been giving them the first desert loop and is basically giving them that challenge. And you know, they're doing it. They're making all that of themselves. This is literally still garage. Garage built. People going and doing the things.

[Zach Clapman]

Plenty of hot rodding. I drove a guy, it's called Tesla Sand Truck on Instagram, but he basically took a trophy truck and put a Tesla motor in the back and he would go to Glamis. Speaking about, you know, giving people, like, if they come in with bias of, you know, people go one way or other. Either they hate EVs or they love EVs, but it's been very politicized. But he goes there and he just does a wheelie and he wins a drag race and people come up and they go, what's in this? And then he says, come for a ride. And of course you just change everyone's mind.

[Matt Farah]

Boom.

[Zach Clapman]

Oh, yeah. You know, just does a wheelie past any.

[Matt Farah]

Whatever you doing wheelies on sand, whatever you've got is working. You're fine.

[Zach Clapman]

You're wheeling past the other wheelies. Yeah, it's very.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah, it's exciting though. It's like, it's such an exciting time in this space. People are wanting to get back and connect with nature and just get out in the places that are, you know, least unseen. And it's. It's just very exciting. You know, you can see obviously Ford is all in on. On off road with all the racing they're doing, the amazing products they have coming out, their commitment to Raptor.

[Matt Farah]

They're all in on racing, period. Jim Farley is. He's a racing driver and he is spending money on the things that he thinks are important. We have to agree with him.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Believe it. We believe Bill Ford loves racing and they're just very, you know, Ford is built on racing and they're committed to keeping that, that history going. And everyone knows that that that creates a cachet and they take it serious and they are learning for things to do with the vehicles. I mean, when we meet up later, we go out and you have your Raptor and you follow me, you are going to be blown away with what that thing can do.

[Matt Farah]

I.

[Zach Clapman]

Well, we hit some whoops earlier. I mean, it's very aggressive. The last alpha and the size of that truck is great. Power is good. The power is equal to his old 2011.

[Matt Farah]

I had a 6, 2 raptor.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

Our little Ranger Raptor makes the same power and torque and weighs 600 pounds less and is. Has better steering.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And paddle Shifters.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Zach Clapman]

And smaller.

[Matt Farah]

It's great.

[Zach Clapman]

It's great.

[Matt Farah]

That's small trucks for the win.

[Zach Clapman]

Small trucks. Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

And it's like 55 grand.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I mean, for like, you can't build something that capable for that money.

[Matt Farah]

It's pretty. I mean, what, what all of the OEMs are delivering from the factory now in terms of performance, not just off road, but on road too. I mean, you know, the stuff that, you know, that you can buy from GM, whether it's a Z06 or a Shelby GT500 or, you know, a Porsche Turbo or whatever, you know, you're buying nine second drag cars, you know, 200 miles per hour and that are totally fine to go get groceries in. Also.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Have you driven a Raptor, Arya?

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I don't even know five people in my life that should have one of those. They are so good. They are so fast.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I mean, they're they're just like. I mean, they're unbelievable trucks.

[Matt Farah]

They're. They have a lot more power than brakes and they're eight feet tall.

[Zach Clapman]

But it's a riot, man. It is. You are driving a firework. It's so good. 60s like, 3 seconds, 3, 4.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Every morning I bring the Raptor R home. My boys, my boys are like, daddy, do a burnout. Blast off. So they'll be like that. They'll be up against the wind, the front window, like both of them. And I'll go to leave and I'll just blow the tires off and leave. In the driveway.

[Matt Farah]

You got a p. You got a piece of dirt at your place where you could light them up on your own property. And it's all good, right?

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And we can't pull that one off. I can't do 11's leaving my neighborhood.

[Zach Clapman]

No, you can do it in your driveway, I think legally, but that's a very short burnout.

[Dave Cole]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

That said, let's just, just talk about a legal battle. I don't want it.

[Dave Cole]

If you ever want to go fast, you can stop by here anytime you want to.

[Matt Farah]

This, I mean, the desert is, it's, you know, it's the last bastion.

[Dave Cole]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

This is where you can be free in a four wheeled vehicle.

[Zach Clapman]

Yeah, it's. I mean, the ride we went on today, but also we've driven side by side, the Polaris Turbo and other, other times we've been in the desert with various horsepower. You just, you get to experience all the things that we kind of want to experience on the road, but you can't for safety and legal reasons. And you can do all of that out here. You can get air and slide and kind of relive like movie driving if you want to and then challenge the hell out of yourself at 1 mile per hour or 100 if you get a trailer or something, you can just drive out here. It is the best for me. It is the most fun I've had in vehicle period. Beyond drifting cars at a slow speed, not your speed and beyond road course stuff, there's just so much more happening. There's just way more adrenaline and way more. Just way more to pay attention to. It's just so fun.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

You get it bud. Summary. You get it.

[Matt Farah]

Do you think the. That for, you know, young people that. That maybe don't have access to fast cars and racetracks that. That getting into side by sides and stuff not even competitively, but can. Can really translate to road driving competency and skill and all that kind of stuff? Totally does.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

100, 100%.

[Dave Cole]

It's all weight transfer. You were nailing it earlier. But the reality, it's all weight transfer. And off road it's a. It's more of a macro weight transfer. Right. You're doing. I can't even imagine. I still have never been in drift car with you. But the, your. Your weight transfer is. Is more subtle. Not as macro, not as big but. But is. But it's all the, it's all of the work, right. As soon as you. When you push the car to each direction then. And off road's the same way. Except that the, the moves are much more gross.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Happens a lot slower in off road. But you have to manage it. You know, you have to like control exactly where it's at. Cuz if you do it the wrong time, you're on your lid. Or if you, if you don't know the dirt you're on, you catch it. You know, it's like you said, there's so many things to know.

[Dave Cole]

You get up on rock crawling and you can. If you just. If you turn a little too much wheel angle and you end up jacking the front suspension, roll the car over. But if you open up that steering, you'll open up the suspension, it'll sit down and it won't look and you can. You're making that jacking happen like super slow, super. And you. It's. That's. That's the phone.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

I would prefer this over carding. Like my kids right now, like they want to go in racing or not, whatever. But like right now I've got them in the dirt, four wheelers, buggies because that is that those dynamics. Right. Karting is the same thing over and over. Yeah. It does teach you how to be smooth, lower power. You know, you do understand, you learn momentum from karting, but when it comes to vehicle dynamics, like, that's my, my challenge with road racers. Road racers live below the limit.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

And when they get to or above.

[Matt Farah]

The limit, they shut down.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

They shut down. They have no idea what to do. So I'm like, if you're road racing or you're like breeding your kid to race drifting dirt, rally, rally, loose surface stuff, because that just, it gives so much confidence when the car is ultimately going to come loose. When you're road racing.

[Matt Farah]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

It's either going to come loose when you want it to or when you don't want it.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Right.

[Matt Farah]

It's like you get to, you get to choose if you're.

[Zach Clapman]

Do you know, I don't know his full name. Svg. The guy who's like the hot shoe in NASCAR road courses right now.

[Matt Farah]

Shane Ginsburg. Yeah, yeah. He's the V8 supercar guy.

[Zach Clapman]

When they did the race at Sonoma, which he won on the victory lap. All these NASCARs, they're all going around like a cooldown and he literally s drifted past and around other cars. Which one? I mean, you're just dunking all the people you just beat. But also it showed that he had massive control beyond the limit. I mean, I was so blown away watching that. And so he had control beyond the limit, so he was able to drive at it and above it ahead of a lot of other people. It was massive.

[Dave Cole]

In the early 90s, there was a different hot rod that was doing road racing, singing for nascar. His name was Robert Gordon and he was getting.

[Zach Clapman]

Yeah. And then he went off road and he did all those.

[Dave Cole]

Well, he was in off road before he went first and, and IndyCar and all the things. But I mean, you, you are. I agree with everything Vaughn's saying that you're, you, you have all the, the, it's just bigger. And if you're, and you're, you're driving your entire race at that limit as opposed to you staying below it all the time, always wanting to avoid it. You're, you're constantly embracing it and you're constantly treading there. And that's, that's why it's amazing watching you guys do it.

[Matt Farah]

Right. So it's a beautiful thing to watch. I mean, you could. Because you could see it, you know, when you're watching road racing or even drifting, you know, outside the car. It's. It's a smooth thing. It's only when you get inside the car that you realize how much work is being done. But here you can see that work from the outside, which makes it a much more, I think, compelling spectator sport. If you really, like, love driving. This was a real treat. We got to cut it off because you guys have a driver's meeting. We do here right now.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And that hill across the way is getting awfully bright.

[Dave Cole]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt Farah]

So I think Zach and I are going to take our borrowed Ranger Raptor and head up there and see what's going on. And, Dave, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time.

[Dave Cole]

Thank you for coming out and having been a pleasure. Look forward to Junior.

[Zach Clapman]

Thank you.

[Matt Farah]

Always great to see see you.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Pumped to see you out here.

[Matt Farah]

Ray Race, thank you for. For joining us here on the old show.

[Vaughn Gittin Jr.]

Heck, yeah.

[Matt Farah]

And love to the family back home, of course. And thank you to Ford for our borrowed Raptor and our RV over there. And I promise we won't break it too heavily. That's our show. Thanks for listening. See you later. Cheers.